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Have you been a victim of sexual sin? Porn, infidelity, or even past sin prior to marriage can put a wife into a whirlwind of hurt and pain. Kay understands that heartache, she herself happened upon her husband’s addition 6 years into it. How did she make it through? How could her marriage survive such betrayal? Kay, a trained counselor, gives amazing insights and suggestions for the wife who is hurt and how to move through that hurt into healing. This episode may be the hope you’ve been grasping for.
All the links, resources, and show notes available at: delightyourmarriage.com/90
Transcript
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah Rose.
0:19
Hi, and welcome. Thank you so much for joining me. Now, if you’re listening to this, the day it’s come out, it’s just after Easter. And I think it’s a very good opportunity to be understanding forgiveness in a new way. Because in our marriages, we have opportunities to forgive pretty much every day. But then there are those really intense, even tragedies horrible situations, whether it’s porn addiction, or infidelity, or even just wandering eyes, or maybe a revelation of what happened before you guys were together, that comes up and wreaks havoc on your heart and mind and soul. And we’ve got a wonderful guest today, she was on before Kay Bruner. And she talks about her experience when the drapes were taken off the the blinds were taken off. And she was able to find out about her husband’s porn use for years as they were married. And very, very hard to conversation. And Kay really shares how challenging it is. And the absolute. Just difficulty. And I just, I want to just start this conversation by saying, one, the fact that you’re willing to listen to an audio book that’s going to dig into something that’s really hard, is, I think, very important, because I think, you know, no matter what our story is, no matter how we experience this life, there will be hard times we can be as positive thinking and righteous as we can be. But truly, there will be really hard times and I think K brings such powerful insights that will help a wife move through this dark season. And even if you’re not in the midst of a really horrible experience, but maybe you are you know, needing some insight on how to forgive your husband for things that you know, maybe he did before you or even knew him, but there still forgiveness that needs to go on. So let’s go ahead and dive in because I, I love this audio. I love her insights. And I think we all can be challenged and encouraged to love more like Jesus.
3:03
Hi, there and welcome back. Thank you so much for joining me. This is belah rose and I’m here with Kate Bruner from Kay bruner.com. Hi, Kay, welcome,
3:13
belah. Thanks for having me.
3:15
Absolutely. I’m really excited. Now, this is our second time talking if you listen or have not had a chance yet to listen to Kay’s story where she really goes into what God has taught her through her marriage and the struggles particular struggle they had. It’s a delight your marriage episode 70 and 71. So I definitely encourage you to go back and listen to those because it’s very encouraging and inspiring. But today, I wanted to bring Kay back on because I think she’s got some unique insights about forgiving your husband, specifically moving past his past sin. And maybe that was even sin before you were even together before you’re married. Or maybe it’s sin that you’ve discovered maybe a pornography addiction or, you know, wandering eyes or even infidelity. I mean, there’s huge amounts of a sin any of us could get into. And so I think that, you know, as wives, we need wisdom, and insight and encouragement, support, to learn how to move through and past those, you know, severe challenges and, and hardships. So, so, okay, would you be willing to just kind of give us a little bit of insight. You know, you talked about on our first interview, you know, how you really had to move past a pornography addiction from your husband and I’m, if you don’t mind giving a little recap. For those that haven’t quite heard it yet. And, you know, yeah, and we’ll start from there.
4:48
Yeah, no, my husband. We were missionaries overseas when I found out that he’d been looking at porn for about six years. And I actually that’s, you know, I hear other people’s stories going on. I’m like, okay, only six years, you know, he really didn’t get into porn until the advent of the internet. Yeah. So, you know, but once that happened, it was kind of all over for him. And yeah, and yeah. I think when you’ve been through something like that you never forget just the, the shock of it. And just that that disoriented feeling of, I thought we had a certain thing, and we didn’t. And you know, what’s real? What’s true? Gosh, I sometimes I feel like it’s like a snow globe where nothing is pasted down. And everything just gets shaken up. And you know, so terrifying. I know, so many of your listeners totally understand what yeah, like, yeah. But in retrospect, you know, and this is 12 years later, I look back on that, and I’m like, okay, that’s also an opportunity to, to ask those hard questions. Who are we really together? Who am I as a person, and for him to sort through who he is as a person? And, and that’s kind of that’s what happened for us during that time was it was just a huge reset of who are we and and what is this relationship? And, and, you know, in the aftermath, our relationship really changed. And in really great, positive ways. You know, that I wouldn’t, at this point, I would not go back. Wow, I’m grateful. Even though it was so awful. I’m really grateful, you know, that we had that opportunity for that big reset to say, Okay, who am I as a person? Who are you? What’s our relationship going to look like? What do we really want? We got married so young, you know, and there were so many things that we just, you know, we just had accepted, you know, kind of, oh, this is how it is, you know, and a lot of those things weren’t exactly healthy. It was a very, you know, sort of kind Christian relationship, I would say it wasn’t a very deep relationship, it was that pretty much all on the surface. Like if, if you do the right thing, and I do the right thing, then that’s what, you know, our marriage is about, but as far as emotional intimacy and real depth, we didn’t have that. You know, we just we got along pretty well. But you know, the really that the anchor, you know, that feeling like you have an anchor in your relationship. We knew when I was really knew how to do that, or were compelled to do that until we were in, you know, a really, really bad situation, and we had to figure it out.
8:01
And how long were you married? When when you found out? Oh, gosh,
8:06
how long was 15 years? Oh, wow. Yeah. So long? Yeah. Yeah.
8:17
It was a long marriage before we
8:19
weren’t newbies, you know. Right. And we hadn’t, you know, we’ve never had a contentious relationship. We didn’t fight. We had, you know, a ministry that we thought was really good that other people, you know, supported us to do. So there wasn’t anything really overtly wrong in our lives. But underneath, we each had these things that we, like I said, we’re not compelled to dig into the real mess of our own lives, much less than, you know, what might really be wrong. And not very nurturing about the relationship. Hmm. With disaster. So, you know, to me, I think that’s kind of the first turning point is to say, there’s goodness, potentially in this mess.
9:10
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I kind of want to go to something that you mentioned the, like, intense betrayal that you felt. I’ve even heard that there are symptoms, a lot of times that women have like PTSD, post traumatic. What does that stress disorder? Very fun. Yeah. That as a result of finding out about their husbands sexual, you know, addictions?
9:39
Yeah, because PTSD, you know, we like to think about, we like to think about PTSD, just like for trauma veterans or for people who have had some, you know, some cataclysmic event at but the reality is that when you are faced with a loss of your marriage, that’s an enormous trauma. Yes, and it’s it’s very, very common for women to, to meet all the criteria for post traumatic stress disorder. And I think that, you know, many times so much of the, the energy, you know, and the concern is, you know, making sure that the guy gets the recovery that he needs, which is great. It needs to happen. But I find so many times that women are often left behind in in the process of healing. And as long as the marriage is, you know, sort of saved, then everybody feels like okay, that, you know, yeah, that was okay, we’re all fine. Now, I run and then I, I, but I’ve, I see women who, you know, they’ve been through this process, their husbands, you know, clean or, you know, relative doing relatively well. They’ve been through marriage counseling and seem to have been successful, they’re still together. And yet, she’s still having flashbacks. She still can’t sleep at night. You know, and so, I feel like, there there is, you know, some, there’s some really important things that we’re not really dealing with, when it comes to recovery for women. Mm hmm.
11:14
And when you think about, you know, the, the resources that you had available to you at the time, and what you wish had been? I mean, what was it? Yeah, what was that like for you?
11:24
I, you know, there were some things there were. There was a, what is it? Steve? arterburn. I think, you know, there was that book. Oh, goodness, I should have looked at my bookshelf before I sat down here. You know, so there were a few things that that were helpful. But yeah, for me, you know, when it when I realized, okay, yes, the marriage is gonna, we are going to make it he is serious, you know, we’re going to be okay. Then, you know, I really this issue of working through all of it and coming to a place where you’re really good together, and not just surviving. Yeah, I wasn’t quite sure how to do that. And that’s led to, you know, kind of a lot of digging around on my part.
12:17
Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, what would you say, when a wife finds out about something? A sexual sin? What is what? What could be her first steps?
12:31
I think the most important thing is to get a support system for yourself. Because, like I said, I think our natural first inclination is going to be to make sure that the husband is doing what he’s supposed to do. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But in that process, I think we so often overlook the fact that the the wife is, and she needs help. Yeah. And so, you know, I think personal counseling is the first step. You know, get on a, get on a directory, you know, the American Association of Christian counselors, or psychology today and find yourself a counselor, you should be able to read profiles there and say, Okay, I think this might be a person that I’d feel comfortable talking to. And then you can get on the phone with them and say, Hey, here’s what I’m looking at. Do you do this kind of work? What would be your approach to that? And just have a, you know, a phone conversation? See if you feel comfortable with that person? And then, yeah, get get an outside, you know, an outsider’s view on the situation. Yeah. Because, you know, when you are traumatized like that, it’s so hard to, you know, to make good choices for yourself, or even to know what the truth is, or what’s reality. You know? Yeah, it’s just so disorienting. So I think it’s really, really important to have some people, you know, who are a safety net for you.
13:57
Mm hmm. Yep. And when you went through this, I mean, did you? Did you share with close people to you, or how did you kind of, yeah, start opening,
14:08
Andy decided to be really honest with people, which is, I think, kind of unusual. And, and I think it really set the tone for our recovery in general, because he really took the lead in telling his family, my family, our close friends, so that I felt permission to talk about it, to really whoever I wanted to, because he had really gone first and said, this is this is what’s happening. And so, um, so yeah, all of my close friends knew our families. And so I had the freedom to talk to people about it, which was pretty amazing. Yeah, I love that.
14:52
Yeah. I love that. You said that opening up is kind of the first step because when those secrets and those those things that we’re ashamed of when they’re under the guise of, of secrecy, they grow. And the enemy has this opportunity to put all this mess in our heads. And it’s more painful when we’re not supported by others who love us. And, you know, I’ve really benefited in my life through counseling through therapy. And I totally support that. You need someone to be able to process through the pain, you need support in this. Yeah. Okay. Was there ever a time that you, I know a lot of women have difficulty discussing what’s going on with their husband? Because they feel like they’re disrespecting him or dishonouring him by sharing? What was that? Like? I mean, how were you able to sort that through? Or how should a wife sort that through?
15:46
I think that is really hard. And you know, when I’m very first figured out what was going on with him. You know, yeah, that was definitely I was afraid to say, to people, within a few months, you know, he had decided to tell people so, you know, at that point, I felt the freedom. But yeah, it was definitely a problem at first, because you had to be the person who, who, who spilled the beans, when it’s, it feels like it’s not your story. You know, and then when you talk to very close friends, you know, of course, now they’re on your side. Right? And, you know, and that’s, you know, yeah, we need people to be on our side, but we’re not trying to destroy the marriage or say, our spouse as a horrible person, we’re just trying to deal with the junk that we’ve got. And that’s why I say, I think sometimes it’s much easier to, you know, to go and find a therapist, who, who is going to keep those things confidential, you know, and you can say anything, and, and that person’s heard it all before. Right? No, there’s no news story that your, your therapist, and, and, and then it keeps it out of that family system of you know, who is on whose side who’s the good guy who’s the bad guy, which is not always very helpful kind of dynamic to build. So that’s why I think counseling, you know, can be so so beneficial to wives, you have a place to tell that story. And you don’t have to worry about endangering your husband’s, you know, friendships and family relationships. And you’re honest about how you’re doing? Right. Right.
17:28
So yeah. Now, when you talked about how you move past or how, you know, even sleeping at night, something Yeah, you know, it just affects everything in your life, this fear that it will happen again, or what’s going on in his mind? Or what the memories are like? How does a wife sort through that? How does she fight against that?
17:53
Yeah, I think you have to be, you have to have some good information. And you have to be really, really honest about what’s actually going on in the purge. Because I think, there there is a tendency to just, I think, easy, quick forgiveness. Forget, forget, it’s all done. We’re all. And certainly, that was my first inclination was, you know, I just, you know, forgive them, you know, and he was, he was very sorry, and repentant. And I think that was genuine. But he would, he did not realize to begin with, you know, how trapped he was in the addiction behaviors, you know, he he was relieved when I found out, and, you know, he was very sorry, he wept. And then, of course, then I felt, you know, I felt bad for him. He also obviously felt so terrible, you know, so there was kind of the quick, easy forgiveness that first time. And then when, you know, we both started to realize, oh, forgiveness is not the magic wand. Oh, I can forgive him. And he can keep on doing this thing that he does, you know, right. Right. I started to think what is this because I had always thought that you forgive, and then the other person will, you know, straighten up if it’s right now. And so it kind of blew my mind that I could forgive him and that he could go on doing bad thing. I was like, What is this? Is this not working out the way that I have been taught to think that forgiveness works. And so I started to realize, you know, there’s this other piece of forgiveness, which is trust, and I cannot trust someone unless they are trustworthy. And so he’s got to show me that he’s trustworthy. And that’s really hard, because it you know, for so many guys, it’s been going on for so long, and they’re so trapped in it, that it takes a real long time to get out. And so, I mean, I’ve read things like, I think it’s like five years for somebody who’s like really working hard on it. That’s kind of the number I’ve read. Wow. So for a guy who is sincerely sorry, you know, gets into accountability, you know, starts working on his stuff, you know, does good things with blocking his, you know, blocking and filtering his internet talks to some people is honest and open. He’s still gonna work hard for five years before he comes to a place where he feels like he’s he’s significantly improved. And my husband has said, he thinks that’s true. Wow. That I He says, Yeah, I think it kind of was that long. And so and so in that interim period, there you are going, oh, you know, there we go again, and how do you so so, you know, the forgiveness is one thing, and I think it’s important, I don’t think you’re gonna rebuild a relationship without the willingness to forgive. But at the same time, the other person has to be engaged in in their own process, and being trustworthy in that process.
21:18
Yeah, and when, when a husband is trustworthy in that process, a lot of times, that means he’s going to be sharing temptations imaginations, I mean, if he is truly transparent, and hopefully, you know, you talked about him having accountability, him having other men that he’s talking to walking with in this journey, right. But I mean, I know myself, when my husband will share that something’s very hard for him even imaginations, because as most of our husbands if they’re, if they’re not battling with pornography, now they have in their past, it’s just the reality. So it’s most the vast, vast majority. So how does a wife kind of separate herself from that? Addiction, that challenge that he’s having? And her own self worth?
22:13
Yeah. Yes. Oh, yeah. I think one thing I would say. So I think there are two separate things. One is about, again, going back to how is the relationship, but then the other thing is, how are you as an individual, and I think you have to work on both things, ideally, so let me talk first, say one thing about what I think is going to help the most in the relationship. And that is building emotional trust. So I think there are two different things, two different kinds of trust. One is the behavioral trust, where he is actually in his process, doing what he’s supposed to do whatever that looks like, you know, for, for him individually, he’s going to his group, he’s talking to his accountability partner, he’s being honest, whatever he’s doing, so that’s the behavioral side of it, the emotional side of it is, is he able to attend to your emotions, and to, you know, and to listen and to, not to fix, but just to be present. So when he tells you something, and that’s very upsetting to you, is he able to be with you in that, not to fix it not to, you know, make it better, but just to, to listen and to accept it? Or is a dismissive and saying, you know, you know how this is stop being so upset, you need to be over this by now. So, you know, that those are, that’s tearing down emotional trust, if you get that very dismissive kind of response. Um, but I think it’s really difficult for men to, to to attend emotionally because culture has taught men to be a man, suck it up, don’t cry, you know. So I think that men in our culture are very they’re really behind the eight ball. When it comes to, you know, knowing how to deal with things emotionally. And then if they’ve been putting all of their emotional pain into pornography for years and years, then they’re really behind the eight ball. So they started out culturally in a bad place, you know, come on, man, you know, men, porn has always been there for them to take their, all of their emotion and put it there. And for men to learn how to take that emotion and, and, and be okay. With feeling sad, feeling scared, feeling uncomfortable. You know, that’s really tough. Men have been told not to feel those things. And but I think to rebuild emotional trust in the relationship, they have to come to that place where they can do that. And I’m John Gottman. I don’t know if you’ve seen this research, man, he says some powerful things about building emotional trust, that are just, they’re very practical, but just incredibly helpful. So that’s one part of it is not just him doing the correct behavioral things, but also re engaging emotionally in the relationship. And I think when that happens, then you start to get, you start to get some traction in the relationship to say, okay, maybe everything’s not going perfectly behaviorally, but I know he’s engaged with me emotionally. And that is a very different place to be. Really powerful. Yeah. And then I think, you know, but on the other side of it, there’s always our personal stuff. And I think, like I said, you know, it’s the opportunity for a big reset. And I think we have to, you know, dig down into our own, you know, all of our stuff about sexuality, and who we are.
26:03
Because our sexuality is a deep, deep part of who we are. And yet, I think so often in Christian culture, we have chopped off our sexuality, stuck it in a box over to the side and said, especially to women don’t think about that. Don’t, you know, to the extent that, you know, we don’t even know what our body parts are, or what, you know, how they work or anything, you know, because we’ve been so afraid of sexuality. I think that’s been, you know, one of the things that women I don’t know, I definitely feel like women have been taught to be afraid of their sexuality. And so I think that, you know, when we’re doing this big reset, we’ve all got to look at what are my, you know, what are my fears? Around my sexuality? What are the things I don’t know, and really be willing to educate ourselves? And to be honest about, you know, what, what are my expectations? What are my feelings, you know, as a counselor, you know, couples will come in and, and I’ll have women’s that just breaks my heart, they’ll say, I have never wanted to have sex, like, you know, I was raised to think it was dirty, and then I got married, and I was supposed to love it, and I’ve never liked it. And, you know, we’re years and years down the road. And sometimes I think, okay, maybe there’s a medical issue that’s never been examined, because we’re too afraid to say, hey, I have no sexual desire whatsoever. That could be that could be a medical thing. Or, you know, I think there are any number of, of emotions that we have, you know, like, just the level of shame, I think that women often have around their own sexuality. So again, this is another reason to have a good counselor. Yeah, where you can just say, whatever it is, and it’s gonna be different for different people, you know, other women come into the marriage, and they, they want to have sex, but their husband maybe has more shame around sexuality than they do. So I think there’s all kinds of different things that you have to pick apart, you know, for yourself at a very deep level. As hopefully, things are starting to progress in the, in the, in the relationship, and in getting some emotional trust built in there, too. That’s a lot of work does, I feel tired talking about? Gosh, that was painful, you know, because I can remember. And I think for me, I you know, I remember it was it was a year and a half, I remember, you know, of this just excruciating work, which I look back. And I always say, You know what, that felt like crawling over broken glass. That’s what it felt like to me for a year and a half. And I had at the very beginning of my process, and I don’t remember if I shared this with you before, but I had come across a book by Henry now and called Turn my mourning into dancing. And he talks about gratitude. And he says that, you know, that to Christian, we can’t divide our past into good things and bad things, you know, we have to trust that every single thing that God allows into our lives is part of his, you know, his, his His mercy and His goodness, and, and these are all steps that he’s using to bring us home. So I read that be kind of right at the beginning of the process, and I thought this man is a lunatic. And he’s wrong. And that’s never going to be true for me. And then, you know, as we did this work, you know, and just really just just bled. It felt like, I remember the night 18 months in where I just said to my husband, I’m grateful. You know, we were having this conversation, and he was talking about something that was very difficult and painful for him. I think he was probably weeping. And you know, and I was weeping. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this is, you know, this is what I’ve wanted my whole life. You know, this is what I dreamed up for our marriage, that we’d be able to talk to each other like this and be honest with each other like this, and that, it wouldn’t just be me being able to say what I thought it felt, but that he would be able to do that, too. And all of a sudden, there we were. And I was like, Oh, that was worth it. You know. And I think that’s what we can do. You know, that’s where marriages can come. But my gosh, it’s hard work, you guys. It really, really is, you know, it’s tough. And I think that’s why, you know, we don’t do it unless we’re pushed off a cliff. You know,
30:47
right. Right. Right. Right, right. Yep. Yep. And, honestly, that’s, that’s why in this, most of my interviews, I really ask them about a struggle in their marriage, because those struggles are when we get to that depth to that, that growth that’s required of us. There’s no other choice. Yeah, I was I was, and then I was processing this with a really close friend who’s had Lyme disease for seven years, I think. And she said, You know, I understand that feeling as you’re getting better, you’re coming out of this hard time, because I noticed when I was starting to get better for my Lyme disease, that I could see this gift of dependency on God, this gift that it is dependent on God, and that as that starts to lift, there’s a real temptation to kind of move away from that, like, I can do this on my own. But, you know, as we all know, nothing is permanent, everything could be shaken at any moment. And truly, the only faithful, the only constant, the only one that we can put our trust in is the Lord. And as hard as these experiences are. You know, kind of what exactly what you’re saying is that, if in perspective in time, there’s this grace to see that God has given us something in the midst of this,
32:15
that he’s a redeemer. Hmm, yeah, yep. Yep. Yep. And I think that’s for me, you know, here I am. 12 years later, I’m sitting here in my living room crying, telling you the story, which is, you know, don’t ever get over it. Yeah, the miracle. And, gosh, you know, I don’t know when you’re going to put this out. But you know, we’re recording this during the Holy Week. And for me, this is a miracle. You know, the example that Jesus gave us of walking through Holy Week, you know, knowing he was going to the cross, knowing that was going to happen and faithfully. And you know, honestly, my goodness, one of my good friends said this weekend, she’s just realizing how emotional Jesus was during Holy Week. You know, it’s like turning over the temple, you know, the tables, cursing the victory, weeping over Jerusalem, you know, sweating out these great drops of blood just like, Whoa, this is like an emotional hurricane. Yeah, and, and yet faithfully, going where he knows he has to go. You know, and I think that there are times, you know, gosh, everybody’s marriage is different. And there are times honestly, Bella, I believe there are times to say, we, this is not okay. Like we’re done. And we have to close the door. If there’s abuse, and honestly, I do think that pornography addiction, even without anything, even without any, you know, actual sexual contact within the prison, I think pornography addiction can can come to that place. I really do. Yeah. And so I want to honor that, you know, women who find themselves in that place, and I want to say, our stories are never over. Even when we come to that place. And we say this is this chapter is closed. God’s still redeeming. And then I know you’re going to have women who listen to those who are, you know, going to just faithfully walk through the most painful things saying, this is where we go, because their husbands are doing their part. And yet it’s so painful and difficult and takes so long sometimes, you know, to see, to see that redemption, but for all of us, for all of us, I think the story of the cross is resurrection.
34:45
Yeah. Yeah. And I kind of want to talk to those women that you know, God says in this world, we will have trouble? You know, what about those experiences that we can’t? No one knows what’s going to happen, you know, and, and God is the God of hope he does say that. And I think it’s helpful to have hope no matter what you’re going through helpful to that God’s gonna turn things around and pray for that and those kinds of things. But we’ve all seen situations that haven’t worked out, right. You know, how do women, especially, let’s say that their husbands are not seeing you’re not seeing those signs of him doing that emotional work that he’s got to do? Yeah. What would you kind of say?
35:45
I think it’s really hard for us to let go of what we know, to be good. Because the restoration of a marriage is a good thing. We’re not asking for something selfish or bad. You know, we’re asking for something good. And yet, people always have free will. God never, ever overrides the freewill of another person. And we can’t either. And so I think there’s always got to be, you know, that I think that’s the moment where we come to, you know, like Jesus in the garden saying, Okay, here’s what I want, you know, God, let this, you know, cut pass for me let this marriage be healed. Nevertheless, not My will. And sometimes, you know, I do think that God’s Will includes the freewill of other people to make mistakes, and to do crazy things, and to wreck relations relationships, and I don’t frankly, understand all of that, you know, I mean, yep. Yep. Anne Lamott says, you know, what the difference is between God and me, God never thinks he’s me. And that great, because, frankly, I mean, don’t we all just think, you know, if I were in charge here, this would not be happening, you know. And it’s so true. You know, like, there’s the all we can see is what we know to be good. And yet God is always able to redeem. And Richard Rohr says that, that when you’re AB control, that is suffering, that’s kind of his definition. And I think that’s really challenging to me, because I’m like, I really like to be in control. And it’s good for me to be in control, because good things happen when I’m in control, you know, it’s very easy for me to go in that direction. But I think, you know, we have to come to a place where open our hands and say, Okay, I cannot control other people. And I’m going to trust in, I’m going to trust in God. When I cannot control the situation, when I can’t make it better when I’ve done every single thing I know how to do and it’s just a wreck. You know, to believe that God can still be redeeming out of the worst possible messes and things that we never ever wanted. And you need a counselor to help you through it, because it’s so hard. You know, it’s such a loss.
38:40
Yeah, yep. And I really appreciate some of the ways you’ve been talking, really acknowledging the pain, really acknowledging the suffering being out of control is suffering. Yeah. And yeah, just as you said, Jesus, experienced suffering, and he was willing to go there and suffer. And I think a lot of times we are suffering, and don’t acknowledge it as such, because we think that’s going to make it better.
39:11
Right. And we think the way out of it is around it. Ah, I think it’s always through.
39:19
Uh huh. Yes. I mean, people in my life, people that were kind of role models to me. I’ve seen them go through hard times, and just try to ignore and I think that was something that I am pre disposed to just do is just ignore and try to, you know, well, at least I have clothes on my back food this morning, you know, and, as it is painful, it is painful, but, you know, I only said the first half of the verse that I quoted a second go I just look it up so I could have the rest of it. But it’s John 1633. Jesus says, I’ve told you these things so that in me, you may have peace in this world, you will have trouble but take heart, I have overcome the world. So Jesus isn’t saying that you will, your faith will cause you to not have trouble, right? No, it’s in the midst of the trouble, that you can take heart, because he has overcome the world, you know?
40:33
Yeah. And it doesn’t make sense. And there’s no way for us to think through it, or to know what’s going to happen. But, you know, again, it’s like Jesus in the garden, you know, like, except, you know, accepting and saying, Okay, I’m gonna have to go where I don’t want to go, you know, and I really don’t want to go there. But yeah, yeah,
40:56
yeah, that’s right. That’s right. That’s right. I just remember in this last season in my life, just so many times where I would just be in tears and just telling a friend, I am in a really hard season, I’ll say, yeah, it was really hard. But I’m just acknowledging that and saying it to myself that this is a season and this is hard. You know, and being okay with it being you know, being willing to accept that this is really hard. And this is a season and I just wonder if that might help someone out there that they can really be okay with being in a really hard season. And just like you’re saying, this kind of stuff. Is is hard this, this this betrayal this? I, you know, I can’t, I can’t even imagine the kind of hurt so many are experiencing in this area. And it’s real stuff. And you know, we had someone just recently talking about grief on the podcast, and what really struck me, you know, she was going through some horrible grief with the passing of her brother. And she said, a friend said to her, you can be a wreck until you’re not. And that was like, I mean, that’s so free, you know, that you can truly be a wreck until it’s over until you’re not a wreck anymore. Like, just let yourself have that, that that, that ability that that space. Yeah. And I appreciate the encouragement again, to seek counseling to seek support, because you need that space. You need space for someone to say yes, yeah. Be a wreck. You go right ahead. soar through it. Do the pain stuff. We’re gonna do that together. You know? Yeah,
42:49
absolutely. We are not supposed to be alone.
42:52
Yep. Yep. That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, that’s right. Even Jesus, when he was at the garden, you know, he took us friends with him. He wanted their support. You wanted them with him? Yeah,
43:01
they passed out. But you know, right.
43:06
Right. Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. That’s a good insight. Before I don’t address this, because this is dy M, I want to ask, if you’re willing to share, you know, kind of your thoughts on when a woman has been, you know, so incredibly betrayed. And then the thought of sexual intimacy with her husband? I mean, honestly, could make her sick, like, there. I mean, how, how does a wife kind of get to a space where she can be generous in the bedroom again, and enjoy the bedroom by her, you know, for herself as well? What are your thoughts? Yeah, I
43:43
think that’s gonna be a process, you know, because, you know, like I said, I think, you know, we kind of dig back into our own, you know, what was our starting point about sexuality, and that’s different for everybody. So if you had, you know, kind of an unhealthy starting point about sexuality begin with this is going to magnify it like crazy. But, you know, even if your starting point about sexuality was pretty healthy and okay. You know, I really do think that our sexuality is, you know, it’s an extension of our personal boundaries. So I think that, you know, the more that we are okay, in ourselves, the more we’re going to be able to be generous to other people, and the less Okay, we are in ourselves, the less we’re going to have to give to other people, you know, right. You’re not and so I think, you know, when we start talking about sexuality, it’s it’s not so much about you know, how do I become a you know, a hot sexual object again, for my husband, you know, so that I can distract him from other women. Right. Which I think is very tempting. And probably Yeah, let’s go there to be yes. Really the healthy place to stay because objectification is not the answer. really a problem. objectifying ourselves further is not going to get us anywhere, but I think, you know, seeing our seeing our own value as, as God’s image bearers and, and being able to receive healing from God, for ourselves, and then I think, in in that relationship where that emotional Trust has, has been built, and when we’re feeling safe in ourselves, then you know, there should be able to be a sexual expression of the emotional trust and intimacy that we’re feeling, you know, with our spouse, and the strength, that we’re feeling within ourselves as a result of our healing. And, and I would say to women, don’t rush it, you know, don’t rush it. And, and if you find yourself, you know, having sex when you aren’t feeling great about it, don’t beat yourself up. But I would say, you know, look at it in terms of looking for, where does, where am I hurting, where do I need healing, and then doing that work, of allowing God to heal you allowing, you know, therapy to help you allowing your friends to speak into your life and give you strength. And I think that that’s probably the way forward. But again, I think that’s so individual, you know, for, for each person, we’re all starting from a different place. And, and it’s really important, I think, for for us to unpack that for ourselves. So that, you know, when we are able to have that sexual expression of who we are and what the relationship is, it’s, it’s real and true. And not just a thing you have to do so that he’s not right, try to control manipulate your husband so that he won’t be mad thing, you know, gets you all messed up.
47:16
Right, right. And I appreciate that. You said it is such a process. I still feel in the middle of my process with my sexuality. And my you know, I’ve been, I’ve written a book, I’ve been interviewing people I, you know, think about this and pray about this quite a lot. But I feel you know, I constantly read about this stuff. This is just, I it might be a lifelong endeavor to understand this more and grow in this more. And yeah,
47:42
I think we’re so unhealthy in this area, as a culture. And I don’t just mean secular culture, I mean, Christian culture, I think we are so unhealthy in this area that to figure it out is, it’s a big deal. It would be a big deal if you didn’t have the marriage issues on top of it.
48:00
Hmm, yeah, that’s right. That’s exactly right, if you didn’t have the marriage issues, and I think for a lot of women, even if their husband hasn’t been necessarily unfaithful to them, they might internalize a lot of the past stuff that their husband did before they even met them. I know, that was a challenge for me. And I’ve heard that for many of my friends and others, I’ve talked to that. It feels so fresh in the wife’s mind, because he told her about it two years ago or something, whereas it might have been 15 years old for him. And so it’s not a Yeah, but I think along the same line, so. So in talking about forgiveness, and I love how you differentiated the behavior. And and first of all, the trust, it’s, it’s not just forgiving, but it’s also getting to a place of growing and trust. And then the two different aspects of that trust being behavioral trust as well as emotional trust. You know,
48:59
we need a flowchart now.
49:05
But it’s really important, I think that’s vital in in rebuilding and, you know, I know that’s what you’re in the business for it you know, the business of is rebuilding and helping people get to a place so you’ve got a book and I want you to share a little bit about that.
49:20
Yeah, the books called debunking the myths of forgiving forget. So trying to say you know, this kind of the things that I believed about forgiveness that you know, in the in the process of you know, actually having to forgive my husband I realized that none of this actually is true. I don’t think it’s scriptural you know, I it was all very you know, you took my toy away in the sandbox, forgive your brother say, I forgive you. It was that kind of thing. And I was like, man, we are way past that. I’m so so the things that I’ve written about it’s not a big book, you know, and Nelson Mandela, and you know, a Desmond Tutu have written books about forgiveness, so I feel like you know, yeah, What do I have to say? Yeah, it’s really intimidating to write even a very tiny book about forgiveness, you know, but anyway, I thought, okay, here are some things that I haven’t seen anybody else say that were, you know, helpful to me to separate out the forgiveness from the trust, you know, to say, Okay, those are two different things like I can forgive, but you know, like, I also have to, you know, see what’s happening in in the trust area, and then healing, you know, for me, so those are like, it’s a triangle for me, there’s forgiveness, there’s healing, there’s trust, and healing, I think, is God’s job, you know, and I think we’ve talked about that in this conversation. And then, and then that also the idea of when do you release the the relationship? And because I think that’s a reality, sometimes we have to do that. It’s not what we want. That’s not what we’re working toward. But sometimes it is a reality that we, we release relationships. And you know, and I think that when we have to do that, we still, we still know that God loves that other person. You know, he’s at work in their lives, even if you know, it’s gone past the place where we can be closely involved with them anymore. Yeah. It’s kind of a messy thing. Now, but yeah, I’ve tried to write down some things that I think might be helpful.
51:30
Yeah, yeah. And I just got the book. So I’m excited to read I wanted to, I told you this beforehand, but I wanted just to hold off so I could get the fresh insights from you. Because sometimes when I get too heavily involved in in the guests, background and their work and stuff, and then I don’t, I don’t bring out the insights that might be interesting and helpful for the audience. So I’m excited to read that because I think, you know, forgiveness spans everything in our life, doesn’t it? It’s our childhood, our parents, or siblings or people at work, or husbands or wives, you know, friends, it’s just huge. So I think that’s also a reason why God gives us the opportunity to forgive every day in our marriage practice. Yeah. Everything Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I love the way you’ve approached this topic, and even this entire conversation and obvious, you know, backdrop for how your speaking, is talking about it with this acknowledgement of maybe, maybe it’s a not acknowledgement of your self worth of who you are in this equation, that you’re a being who has, knee, you know, not just needs, but you need care, yeah, you need to be cared for, you know, and when, when this happened to you, that was the opposite of what happened. And, you know, understanding that this forgiveness acknowledges the hurt parties experience and how they can not deny themselves to the extent that there’s resentment, and there’s, you know, bitterness that then is, you know, on Earth and whatnot, but like understanding biblically, how are we denying ourselves in a way that Jesus says, forgive them for they don’t know what they’re doing? He gets to the space of, of total maturity in this in this understanding? And not, you know, I don’t know, there’s, there’s not the sense of resentment underneath or this, um, you know, I did, Is that making sense? What are your thoughts?
53:42
I just think, you know, I think Jesus knew, you know, and experienced God’s love for him to such an extent that he could, that he could go to the cross and forgive people. And that kind of knowledge and experience is available to us to, you know, to really, to understand, and this is, you know, in Ephesians three, where it says, you know, I want you to experience the love of God, you know, let your roots go down deep, and experience the love of God, that’s so great, you’ll never comprehend it. You know, there’s those two parts of it where, you know, understand and experience but you know what, you’re never going to get to the end of that, or really understand it. And yet it exists. And that can be, as you said, the absolute bedrock of our souls, whatever the actual outcome of, of events are, to know and to experience that love. So great. We can’t ever comprehend it.
54:53
So true. That’s beautiful. That’s so true. I think. I think that’s a good opportunity to to wrap this conversation. You’re not because that’s truly, ultimately the point. That’s really wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Kay, this is our full and meaningful. Yeah, I
55:10
love talking with you. Thanks for having me back.
55:16
It is the point. I loved how Cayce said regardless of the outcome of events, it’s really about knowing the love of God, understanding, experiencing His love. And again, in thinking about Easter and thinking about what Jesus did for us. Our marriage gives us a powerful insight into what God did for us. When you went to the cross. You know, in Hosea, it talks about God asking Hosea to go marry a prostitute so that of Hosea could understand what it feels like, for Israel to be unfaithful to God. And there’s no mistaking it. The reason sexual sin is so hurtful is because that’s the kind of jealousy that God has for our hearts. There’s no mistaking it, it’s all over the word. If you want more references to God, giving us an example of the sexual union in marriage. That’s our union with God, it is that dynamic. It’s that powerful. And if we have unenlightened eyes, that can make us really uncomfortable to think through that he might love us that intensely, right. But when we see that, God has given us a little taste into the depth of his love for us, in our jealousy in marriage, it I think can give us insight into what it means to truly forgive. And I do love Kay’s insights, I really am excited to read her book, I encourage you to check out her information insights, kay bruner.com. You know, I’ve got all the show notes at delight your marriage.com/ninety. So I encourage you to go there and find out all the different books that she talked about. I’ve got the titles and the links and everything that she talked about even different resources to find counselors and everything. So I, I’d love for you to go there and check those things out. And I think the last thing I want to just leave you with is I was looking this up before our conversation, but it was funny, I accidentally turned to the exact page I was looking for. But it’s First Samuel Eight, seven. And it’s when Samuel is talking to God, and he’s like, God, they want a king instead of the judges that I’ve put in place. And I just don’t understand, like, I feel this rejection I you know, he’s just, he’s basically complaining to God, like, why would they want a king when they’ve got me, you know, and God is saying, he had the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you. But they have rejected me that I should not reign over them. And to me, that’s just a powerful insight about the pain and the sin that you have felt as a result or sorry, the the sin you have the effects of the your husband sin that you have felt, recognizing at the moment of that God is feeling that rejection. He says they haven’t rejected you, but they’ve rejected me. And I think we again, as wives, get a little taste of the depth of God’s desire and love for us. And it’s also as Kay so frequently pointed out of this conversation, it’s also that opportunity to understand God’s love to a greater degree. And that and that is the point. Well, God bless you. Thank you for listening. And I look forward to talking to you next Tuesday. I’m praying for you and praying that in the midst of your challenge your trial, that God would just be such a beacon of hope in the midst.
59:18
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion