When you think about the women of the Bible who comes to mind? Ruth, the loyal daughter who served her widowed mother-in-law. Esther, who risked her life to save her people. The hardworking Proverbs 31 wife. Mary, the teenage girl who’s heart was so tender before the Lord that He chose her to be Jesus’ mother.
Yes. The women in the Bible are incredible and should be aspired to. Did you immediately think of the Song of Solomon? Probably not. Not because she doesn’t take up space in the scriptures. Actually she has more spoken words than any woman in the whole Bible. But we probably haven’t heard many sermons about her.
I’m joined by intimacy expert Dr. Juli Slattery. And we discuss the desire and pleasure of the woman (in the Bible) of the Song of Solomon.
God wanted us to hear and understand that desire. He wanted us to see the holiness in it. What does this mean to your marriage? How can you apply this in your marriage?
If you’re at a place of desire for change in intimacy in your marriage, consider intimacy coaching to move you from being stuck to enjoyment.
Transcript
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0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.
0:19
Oh, right, well, thank you for being here. And I don’t know about you. But every time the dy M, music comes on, I do a little dancing. You know, it helps me to be gay, pepped up and excited to talk to you. But it also makes me happy. And there’s a lot in the Bible, about the joy of the Lord is your strength. There’s a lot about dancing before the Lord, there’s actually just good stuff that happens when you dance, and I didn’t grow up doing dancing, that wasn’t something I did. And definitely, that wasn’t you know, I wouldn’t dance to, you know, secular music. That’s and that’s, you know, something that kind of, is hard for me to kind of grapple with now, but the cool thing is, nowadays, so easy to YouTube, things like Christian reggae songs are so fun to dance to. And you can just YouTube any kind of, you know, new culture, you know, new ethnicity, that maybe you’re not used to even being around, and you can just dance to it. And it’s just this really amazing opportunity to worship with people all over the world, just by listening to music from their country. So you could do worship music from Tanzania, for example, or worship music, you know, in Mexico, just these different areas, because God loves diversity. You know, he made the nations of the world, every people skin color, tribe tongue, was made by his own hand, so he loves it. So that’s fun for me is to connect, you know, in worshipping My God, through all these different ways of enjoying. Yeah, really enjoying life enjoying, who got is worshiping Him, and enjoying that diversity that he brings to this world that he designed. Interesting. I wasn’t going to say this exactly. But I’ll mention in just a second, actually, who we talk about today on this show, is the wonderful Song of Solomon, lady. And the reason I mentioned all that about dancing is because valuing your pleasure is really important. And I think as Christian wives, we often think of that as the very last lowest priority. Everyone else has to be served first. I mean, we’re Martha, right? We’re the ones that’s running around getting everything ready. Well, Mary is lazily sitting at Jesus’s feet. And we’re complaining that Mary’s doing that. And then Jesus is like, hold on, Martha, I love you. But you’re distracted. And Mary’s doing the right thing. And she can keep doing it. He uses different words. But that’s, I think modern day, meaning they’ll probably with a lot more love and compassion than I just said. Anyway, the point is that us women so often get out of this idea of pleasure, and into this idea of work, and doo doo doo. But there’s a whole chapter in the Bible, which is all about the woman’s pleasure in sex with her husband. It’s awesome. So that’s what we’re gonna be talking about. It’s interesting that I was talking about diversity, kind of off the cuff. But turns out that the Shulamite wife, one of the verses in the Song of Solomon says, I am dark, but lovely. So she actually talks about her own skin color is dark. And so it’s just very interesting to be thinking about, you know, God made her lovely, like it does just doesn’t. God has made our skin or ethnicity or diversity in his image. We are all part of his image and, you know, exposing ourselves and understanding others cultures and others, backgrounds and races. You know, there’s a lot going on in this world, but for us as children of God, to be the ones to be holding hands with our brothers and sisters, and loving the way that Jesus loved. I mean, that’s That’s what’s gonna be like it’s always it’s all the nation’s tribe and tongue worshipping Jesus. That’s what it’s gonna be like. And so let’s do that here. And now, let’s be those missionaries, let’s be the, the lovers that God wants us to be of other people. And diversity is huge.
5:20
It’s incredibly passionate in my heart right now, because my church is really focusing in on how important diversity is, especially with what’s going on nationally and globally. You know, and from year one, this podcast has been International, which by God’s grace, he’s spreading in the way he wants to, I don’t look at the numbers anymore. But like I said, you’re you’re one it was, it was over at different countries, not just the US. So I want listeners, wherever you are to really get this that, that lovers of Jesus are lovers of people, regardless of of background of race, or ethnicity, of culture, of social status, of economic status, of, of all of these statuses. Jesus is a lover of those people. And so we as followers of Jesus should also be lovers of those people. So, circling back to having pleasure in intimacy insects, the dark yet lovely Shulamite bride knew that pleasure in physical intimacy was something she deserved, was something she was worthy of was something she had the freedom to pursue and enjoy. So I talked to this wonderful woman named Dr. Julie Slattery on our podcast today, and I look forward to chatting with you in just a moment.
7:18
All right, delight your marriage listener, welcome back. I am excited because I have a wonderful wife and intimacy expert, Dr. Julie Slattery. Great. Well, welcome, Julie. How are you today?
7:32
I’m doing well. Thanks for having me on.
7:35
Absolutely. Absolutely. I’ve actually wanted to have you on for a while now. So I’m really glad that you got a chance to.
7:40
So tell me, if you wouldn’t mind introducing yourself and tell us a little bit about your day to day life?
7:48
Well, my day to day life is different depending on the day, which is what makes it fun. But let’s see, I can tell you, I’ve been married to my husband for 21 years. And we have three sons. And they are 2018 and 14. And my training is I’m a clinical psychologist. But really my passion is addressing women’s issues from a biblical perspective, helping people just to understand, how does God’s truth intersect with the real problems I’m facing, and about five and a half years ago, started a ministry called authentic intimacy with Linda Dillo. And the ministry is really about tackling issues of intimacy and sexuality, and particularly addressing the kind of women’s issues related to sexuality. So, day to day life, like I said, is different. It’s it’s a challenge. It’s fun. It’s exciting. So that’s a little bit about me.
8:47
That’s awesome. And when you talk about the ministry, what is the kind of day to day work of it? What does that look? Yeah,
8:56
yeah, well, we consider the ministry to be more of a teaching or discipleship ministry. So it is national or international in terms of where it’s going. But we do a weekly podcast addressing just different issues related to women’s issues, sexuality, marriage, intimacy, write books, Bible studies, do a lot of speaking conferences, and just an online presence, where women can kind of get information through our blog, through the other things that we’re creating can ask questions. So that’s kind of what life looks like.
9:33
Yeah, that’s awesome. I love that. Well, can you tell us a little bit about you and your husband’s personalities?
9:41
Yeah, sure. Like a lot of couples, our personalities are quite different from each other. So we’re kind of that story of opposites attract. My husband, Mike, is type A or type B personality. He’s fun loving, very relational, extroverted. He was raised in New York, early childhood where you are. And then south Florida. His, his father was in the police department. And I’m more than the Type A personality like driven, very much a thinker introvert. I like to be alone or have one on one conversations. So came from a big family in the Midwest. So we spent 21 years learning from each other. And I think now when we look at our personalities compared to where we were when we first met, we’ve really learned how to how to be more balanced together. So it’s been a fun journey, sometimes frustrating, but overall a good thing.
10:45
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Because it’s almost become something where you complement each other. It’s like puzzle pieces fitting in, you’re lacking where he’s strong and vice versa. And, yeah, I love kind of learning that rather than, rather than the understanding of we’re so different. We can’t connect. It’s, you know, I’m so grateful. He’s got what I don’t have.
11:08
Yeah, you’re right. But that’s really a mindset. I’ve spent years in the category of being frustrated that he wasn’t more like me. And wishing he would be more like me. And then God had to really soften my heart humbled me and show me how I need I need the differences that my husband brings.
11:30
Yeah, yep. I hear that so much. Yeah. Well, tell um, if you could a scripture or a quote, maybe that’s meant a lot to you over the years.
11:43
Wow, a scripture or a quote, there’s so many. No, I think it really depends on the season. Our ministry really was started from a scripture in Isaiah 61, verses one through three. And that really talks about why Jesus came to preach good news to the poor, to find out the brokenhearted, to set captives free to exchange, you know, our grief for joy, and, you know, just our beauty and for our ashes. And that’s a very familiar verse. A lot of people don’t know where to find it. But when the Lord first put this ministry in my heart, that was a verse that just was running through my mind, and I don’t even know where to find it, I had to google it. But that has meant a lot to me, just because I get to see that every day, I get to see that God’s Word and His presence, really do set captives free, and really do take away our grief and our mourning, and you know, give us joy in the midst of difficulty. And so that’s a promise. And that’s why we do what we do. It’s not necessarily just to help people have better marriages, that’s great. But the spiritual redemption and healing of knowing who Jesus says, and knowing the power of His word, is what’s life giving.
13:07
Now, I love that. Yeah, that’s so true. Yeah. Well, would you tell a story of a difficult season or a struggle in your marriage that you’ve overcome? And how and,
13:22
yeah, yeah, I know that your passion is to talk about intimacy in marriage, and even sexual intimacy, which is a lot of what we do as well. And so my husband and I have had seasons where that particular area of our marriage has been really difficult on everything from the differences between us to having three young children. And that was a really tough season where I had no energy, no interest in sexual intimacy really began to feel like, this was just a chore that was constantly at my doorstep. And at that same time, my husband was struggling with pornography kind of off and on. And I know that this story is like, it’s like what most young couples are dealing with. And so I would find that this was a struggle, and we fight about it. And I’d wonder, you know, what’s wrong with me would make me feel even more pressure, like I have to be available all the time, or it’s my fault. And so really got stuck in kind of a bad cycle, with our marriage related to that. And, you know, I found over the years as God has brought healing, that that, again, God redeems, even though struggles that we had a lot of the work that I do, a lot of the writing that I do, around sexuality, comes from really understanding some of those common temptations and struggles and patterns that couples get into because we were we were in it, even though I’m a psychologist, even though I was counseling other women, and, you know, behind our doors, that’s the kind of things that we were really battling
15:00
And I can imagine that would have been really challenging to write to be counseling, and then kind of, in your own marriage encountering that? Would you? I mean, how would you kind of handle it? Would you kind of think back to your clinical, you know, studies and how you should approach it? Or was it kind of like, then you were just using old patterns that have been ingrained since childhood? And just reverting back to those?
15:30
Yeah, you know, I noticed that anytime I tried to bring in, like my clinical knowledge, it was forced, if that makes sense, kind of like, okay, I’m the Doctor, I’m going to fix us, I’m going to fix you, here’s how we are supposed to communicate. And for us, that really wasn’t super effective. And it probably, if anything, made my husband feel more alienated. And, you know, a lot of times what happens in this cycle. And again, I know a lot of couples can relate to that is the woman, and my case, me, becomes kind of self righteous, like, I’m the one that understands marriage. I’m the one that understands what true intimacy is, sex really isn’t that important? How dare you look at other women, you know, you’re ruining our marriage. And for me to take kind of a clinical perspective, even put me more in the position of being the self righteous person. And so, really, for me, turning point was when God just began to humble me, and it’ll give me true empathy for the things my husband was struggling with, really helped me understand why sexual intimacy is so important to my husband, in terms of sharing that journey with me. God started to skin front, my selfishness, my fears, and, as is so often the case, you think your husband’s the problem. And then when you really get before the word, he begins to show you that, that there’s a lot of work in your own heart that needs to be done. And so for us, it was healing really came more through that journey of learning to extend mercy and grace to each other learning that each one of us have, you know, hang ups and patterns and lies and wounds that need to be addressed, and that the enemy will use those difficulties to divide us. And when we began to approach this problem as a team, and to say, hey, you know, God put us together as a team, let’s really be honest with with what needs to happen and what we’re struggling with, and how we need to change. You know, that’s, that’s where we really started to see victory.
17:43
So if if we go back to the kind of some of the details if you don’t mind of what you guys were struggling with, when when you said that, you know, you felt like it was a chore? I mean, how do you think women get to that place of, of feeling that way? I mean, obviously, that’s a very common way to think about it. But I just wonder if we dissected that a little bit, when it gives us a little fresh insight on why do we get to that place of because before the wedding, we don’t think I mean, we’re excited?
18:18
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think, you know, there are a few dynamics that go into this. And I will also say, and I’m sure that you’ve heard from your your community that there are a lot of women that have the shoe on the other foot, who they’re the ones that want sexual intimacy, and their husband is avoiding it. So that’s a whole nother issue. But, but for those of us who find ourselves resenting sex and wanting to avoid it, I think some common themes that lend itself to that, first of all, female sexuality is way more complicated than male sexuality, in terms of our emotional readiness, even our physiology is much more complicated. And because of that, it takes a woman much longer to even understand how to enter into sexual pleasure, herself. And so her husband’s trying to figure out, how do I please my wife, and, and he asks her and she’s like, I don’t know, I don’t know what I like. And what I like six months ago, is different from what I like today. And, and so because it’s so complicated, I think a lot of couples start revolving the sexual relationship around the husband’s needs, because his are obvious. He knows when he wants sex. He knows what will what will please him, and he knows what will bring release for him. And so and so the couple instead of saying, let’s pursue how we find pleasure together, they begin just saying, let’s pursue how to meet the husband’s need, and and a woman’s need a lot of times is much more underground. She’s not even really aware of it herself. She just knows she’s frustrated. And, and so they develop this pattern of kind of the urgent thing is what he’s asking for and what He desires. And, and her the journey of her really becoming a sexually satisfied women woman gets put on the back shelf. So I think that’s a real thing. And then, and then once you start establishing that pattern, every time there’s a sexual advance, the woman hears, I want you to please me, I want you to meet my need. And she begins, you know, even if it’s not true, she begins believing, you know, that’s all he wants me for, I’m just object, he doesn’t really love me, this isn’t fun for me. And that negative thinking just kind of takes on a life of its own. And then like, in my case, she can start develop developing physical problems, like, painful intercourse, because the whole, the whole idea of sex now becomes, I’m required to give something that isn’t pleasurable for me.
21:05
Yeah, I feel like that’s a huge one, where, where sex just begins the beginning, even, like you said, just the beginning stages where, you know, he really is just, maybe he’s just being playful and you know, excited to have his sexy wife walking around the house, and suddenly she thinks it’s an advanced and, you know, she has to give, you know, and serve Him and, you know, really be thinking about him, rather than enjoying their time together, potentially, or so, to kind of underscore or dive into that a little bit more when you said that, you know, revolving sex around her husband’s needs, versus kind of exploring the sexual intimacy journey together. Let’s say a wife has gone into this. I mean, that’s where I definitely was 100% was, you know, started out thinking that sex was going to be about me realize I don’t want it very often. And then it was all about my husband. So then how do you kind of shift into this place of, okay, how do we explore this together? How do we make intimacy joyful? And, you know, fulfilling for both of us?
22:27
Yeah, really? Good question. Yeah, I think somewhat, there’s an underlying belief that I think particularly a lot of women of faith have, that, that God isn’t okay with them being sexual. And guys don’t struggle with this as much. Just kind of feel like, you know, a godly woman should be restrained sexually, and she should be a servant to her husband. And, you know, this really shouldn’t be about her. And, you know, it, we we’ve just gotten so many messages, even the silence from the church on female sexuality, it’s like, If a woman wants it, there must be something wrong with her. And so I think there are a lot of women who, underneath at all, really don’t feel permission to enjoy sex in marriage, or at least enjoy it very much. And so because of that, they they’re restrained. And they really believe that their most pleasing God and most pleasing their husband when they make it about him, and and what really should, you know, showed me that my thinking in that area was wrong was studying the Song of Solomon. Because in the book of the Song of Solomon, the wife actually is more more initiating sex than the husband, like she’s fantasizing about her husband, she’s planning like a sexual Renee boo, she’s all into her pleasure. And God’s good with that. And so for me, I had to really get that mental shift of, you know, what really pleases the Lord the most. And what pleases my husband the most is when I’m enjoying this as much as he is. Or even more so. And so I needed that permission to say that this is a God honoring thing to pursue great pleasure and passion and our intimacy. And then once you have the permission, I think the permission really began to tell me that I need to make it a priority. That wasn’t okay. Just go year after year with this kind of being a blob part of our marriage.
24:37
Yeah, it’s so true. When you read the song of Solomon’s you’re like wow, and she’s she is kind of the primary speaker in the conversation. She I think it doesn’t she talk about like going into the wilderness and
24:55
I mean, think about it this this way. She is the woman in the Bible who has the most recorded words. Really? Yeah. It’s like there’s no other woman that is given more ink than I could I call her this smokin hot mama. That’s kind of my nickname for her. But, but she has more said about her than the Proverbs 31. Woman, you know more than than Ruth. And, you know, like these these heroines that we study, and we love and we should, but we totally ignore this lady in the Song of Solomon, because we feel awkward about the message she’s giving us.
25:35
Yeah, I love that. And I love how you mentioned that. It is it’s awkward, you know. And so we ignore that rather than consider the wisdom of what, why Sangha Solomon’s is included in our holy scriptures. What’s God giving us through her dialogue? I wanted to ask you now, I think it is wise for wives to kind of be in this mode of thinking, okay, when was the last time we made love? Let’s make sure move around schedules and make sure that we can do it again soon. Especially if she’s not craving sex as much as he is. That’s good. However, I wonder what can she do to make pleasure more of her craving? You know, have you found this as kind of a common thing? And? And further, what can you do about it?
26:32
Yeah, well, you know, first of all, it is a common thing. But second of all, I don’t think that pleasure has to be the primary aim. And most women, even if they have a really great sex life with their husband will say, the thing I like the most about sex is just the closeness we feel. And then includes the foreplay, it includes you teasing, you know, and includes just, even the afterglow of being together and knowing that we shared this, men usually don’t say that, you know, they say it’s the pleasure. But But women like the whole journey, but where I think it’s a problem is where there’s no pleasure, and where, you know, it’s just, it’s, it’s a disappointment, and it’s putting up with it, because you have to, and so women can find pleasure in the planning and in the anticipation. And even in the, in the remembering that we had this special time together. But but there is a sense to where I think most women because of some of the things we’ve already talked about, but also because for a lot of women sex is really triggering of anxiety, painful memories, painful experiences, they and Shane, they learned to kind of this is kind of a psychology word, but they learn to disassociate themselves from sexual pleasure. And what I mean by that is, when things start heating up, they have a way of kind of getting their mind almost escaped what’s really happening in the moment, through fantasy through just kind of numbing themselves. And that’s a defense mechanism. And when you continually do that, and there are women who will do that throughout their whole marriage without realizing they’re doing it, you you feel like you’re missing something. And so that’s the encouragement, like, okay, at my encouragement to you, if you find yourself in that situation is don’t stop there. You know, that just means there’s more healing. And there’s more work that you need to do to really understand this gift, and to work through some of the things that maybe have caused pain in the past. But, but continue to pursue the fullness of what God intended us to be.
28:52
So this disassociating, you said, that’s, that’s what it’s called? disassociating from the experience? Uh huh. Yeah. Is that the same as you know, when women might be in the midst of making love and their mind just, you know, start circling around their shopping list and their to do so you’re in there? And, I mean, is that a sense of disassociation? Or is that simply not kind of being mindful or being in the moment or?
29:22
Yeah, it can be so like, the way that I view it, because it helps me to kind of put metaphors to this. It’s almost as if, like, you have a race to run in sexual intimacy, and there’s a starting line, and there’s a finish line that you hope to get to. And along the way, are these are the stop signs or yield signs or even shortcuts that keep you from finishing the race? And so some of those stop signs or roadmaps that you’re you’re trying to get through are I just can’t get my mind there like I’m so stressed about everything else. Are the the kids listening in the next door? You know what if I forget about the orthodontist appointment tomorrow, I mean, women are just they have a hard time focusing on the moment. So that doesn’t necessarily have to be dissociation. It’s almost like more sexual add, where we just really have trouble being present in the moment. And that takes effort. But this, yeah, but disassociation is really more related to even unconscious fear that, that if I’m fully present in this moment, something bad could happen. It’s too vulnerable, I don’t want to lose control. And so it’s, it’s very unconscious, but it’s a way of saying, You can have my body, but I’m protecting pieces of me. And so some women will almost describe it like an out of body experience, or their mind just going somewhere else that feels like a distraction or feel safe. And particularly again, if you’ve experienced sexual abuse, or really any form of sexual trauma. You This is maybe how you’ve learned to cope with it.
31:11
What I mean, what are some steps that you can advise a wife that’s going through that? Are there certain things like, I would imagine going to therapy is a huge one. Yeah. But are there like ways that she can kind of practice at home that she can kind of move through this?
31:30
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, first of all, is just identifying that as you’re listening, you’re like, what? Yeah, that’s me. She just described our marriage. And so that awareness is huge. And, and then the desire to say, I don’t know what it takes, but I want to get beyond that, you know, I really want to know what what intimacy is what, what sexual intimacy is not just sexual activity. And, and, yeah, and then the next step would be to identify what we call triggers. So it can be being touched a certain way it can be, for example, your husband gets on top of you that can be triggering for a lot of women, oral sex is triggering, like things that that, that you can’t explain it, but they just make you feel like something’s wrong, they make you feel shame, they make you feel afraid. And so in therapy, a counselor would help you identify some of these triggers. And then what they may also help you do then is kind of to talk through some of the memories or sensations that those triggers are bringing up. And, and then what you can begin to do is you can begin to share with your husband, these are sort of words or things that trigger me if we can avoid those for now. Or even if I have a code word, I can say that kind of redirects, sexual intimacy. And I’ve heard from women who will say things, like, having sex with the lights on helps, because I can look at my husband and I can know that I’m safe. You know, even just having phrases that you might repeat through your mind, you know, this is my husband, he loves me. Yeah, you know, he, I’m safe here. And again, therapy can really help putting some of those things in place. But I’ve I know, women who have been through like the most horrendous traumas you can imagine. And going through the healing process. They’re really on the other side of this where they can really say this is I’m experiencing the fullness and the beauty of what God intended this to be
33:38
a woman that is, you know, experiencing disassociation. Do you have a resource specifically that you could point her to? Or? Yeah, maybe,
33:51
yeah, one that I would recommend is called restoring the pleasure. And it’s, it’s by a couple cliff and Joyce Penner, I think they may have been on your show. But yeah, yeah. So what they do in that particular book is is more of a workbook, and they have exercises like, like learning, safe touch, learning, to experience sexual touch, within a safe context, with an exercise called sensitive focus. So that’s probably the most practical in terms of identifying triggers and learning to touch in a way that isn’t threatening. But, but even, you know, going through some of the deeper healing of sexual abuse recovery, if that’s your story, Dan allander stuff is really good. The wounded heart healing the wounded heart. Yeah, so those are some good resources as well.
34:48
Okay. Awesome. I’ll have these in the show notes. So that’ll help people to look at them. Dan Ellender okay. Yeah, I’ve definitely heard of his work, but I haven’t read those. Okay. So, um, a couple things I wanted to kind of go back to that you mentioned was I was, I was looking at this just the other day actually, the Proverbs 31. Woman. And I was just like, kind of reading through and I don’t see anywhere where she enjoys herself. Yeah, it feels like from from dark, early morning to evening at night. She is just working. Yeah. And I was like, I was talking to the Lord. I was like, how did you make a women who I feel like intrinsically, we are supposed to be enjoying life. Like, that’s just that makes us make love. We enjoy love making if we are kind of at peace and other areas of our life if we’re not stressed out all the time. Yeah. What are your thoughts?
35:56
Yeah, that’s a really good observation. And, you know, I think I think one thing related to Proverbs 31 woman that has helped me because I went through many years where I just hated that woman. Like, you know, this. And back then they didn’t even have social media. Now we have, you know, the comparison of, I make my homemade baby food. And, you know, I use cloth diapers, and it’s like, okay, I’m just a big loser. Yeah. So, but the Proverbs 31 woman, if you just read it, as it’s written, just pours that Gill on, and, like you said, takes away our ability to feel any pleasure or any permission to rest. Yeah. So that, but the thing that helped me with that, and my mom was somebody that told me this, that this is the description of this woman at the end of her life. This isn’t her day to day, this is her husband reflecting at the end of their life. This is the character of a of this godly woman. And she wasn’t that when they first got married. And she wasn’t that in the middle of her 30s. This is maybe when she’s 60, or 70. And her family’s reflecting on the fact that she always put other people before her and she worked so hard, and she was creative, and she was assertive, and she was so well respected. And so when you put it in that context, I’m not a proverbs 31 woman, if you follow me around for a day or two. But hopefully at the end of my life, when people reflect on my husband reflects, you know, he would say something like that, like, Julie, you know, she always got up early, to have her quiet time and to make breakfast for us. Or you, she always fed us before she fed herself. Or she was always kind of looking around, who can I help. And so, hopefully, we’re going towards a character, a testimony of the kind of woman we are, and not reading about the Proverbs 31 woman in the context of a checklist of did I buy and sell a field today? And did I? Did I sell my kids clothes? So? So that really freed me up quite a bit?
38:19
True? Yeah, that is that is I do really appreciate that. You know, I just because, as you kind of mentioned before, there are a few examples that we have in the Bible, of women and of who they are supposed to be. And so you know, kind of thinking about Sanga Solomon’s we do have the freedom to be a woman who enjoys and desires pleasure and enjoys and desires romance. It’s so true, just to be thinking about that God made us this way as as women, you know, as a wife, I would encourage you this week to go back and just flip through and read Song of Solomon, that’s really not very long. And you might be surprised about what’s in there. It’s actually very cool to think through. You know, how long ago was it? There was a lot of physical labor that needed to be done all the time. In terms of just constant work that needed to be done, it wasn’t. I go to the supermarket and buy a loaf of bread, it was plant wheat, wait half a year, harvest the wheat, grind the wheat, you know, bake the bread, you know, make the fire, just a huge amount of process things that I don’t even know most of what they had to do, but that was to get one loaf of bread for dinner. So just considering how much work they had to do. And the Shulamite bride was totally able and willing and worthy of receiving the pleasure of sexual intimacy. I think that’s a big thing. And I’ll be talking about more soon. But it’s this. Am I worthy to receive pleasure? You know, it’s not just is it okay, but am I enough? Have I done enough? And the cool thing is with Jesus. I mean, truly we, we have not done enough, the answer’s no, you will never be able to have done enough. But because of Jesus with him, we are enough. He paid the price. You know, we are the righteousness of Christ because of the bloody shirt on the cross. For us. It’s, it’s all there. So I feel like, you know, with my intros and outros today, I’ve run the gamut on encouraging diversity and talking about specifically the cross. But it really all is connected, isn’t it? It all is about Jesus. Ultimately, our worthiness, the way we can enjoy is because of Jesus in every way, and with that he deserves our praise and he deserves our worship and every tribe and tongue and nation. He deserves that. Well, God bless you. Thank you so much for joining. I look forward to chatting with Julie on our next half of the interview next Tuesday. I’ll talk to you soon God bless. Love you.
41:48
Bye. Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion
There’s a lot we can do to make our love lives more lively. More than you might have thought. What about making sex into a game?
Here’s a wife who made a Christian app that makes sex more fun for all of us! Amy’s passion has come out of a place of understanding the significant impact that comes out of a place of marital intimacy.
This is the second half of her interview and it is so important for us all to prioritize and enjoy making love. We all can only be so creative—Why not get a little help to make it more fun and spicy?
Her desire is to make more marriages succeed. So much of the app is free, I would really encourage you to check it out: ultimateintimacy.com At the end of the interview, Amy walks us through step by step how the game works (so you can download and walk with her through how to use it).
My other encouragement I share on the podcast, is maybe you’re not at a place where an app will help you spice things up. Maybe there are significant challenges that need to be worked through before you can get to that stage. I share a lot of the challenges I’ve had to fight through in regards to intimacy and I want to help you get to the other side. Coaching 1:1 with me is 30% from now until Nov 24. We meet via video chat every week to dig into the deep stuff to move you to amazing intimacy.
Check out Amy’s app—here’s their hilarious video!
Transcript
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.
0:18
Oh, right, thank you for joining. This is Bella, I just appreciate that you’re here. I appreciate that your heart is to be encouraged in your marriage to be the best person you can be in your marriage in your intimacy. I think God blesses that heart to, to desire to be open to learning to growing, it’s not easy. You have to be humble and a teachable spirit to be impacted by other stories. When I look at the difficulties I’ve had in intimacy, I mean, there’s so I mean, they’re huge. They’re huge things, the ways that I was brought up, it was basically just never talked about. And so I learned that it was gross and dirty, never do it. You know, I saw pornography when I was young. So I learned that it was very sinful, and anything having to do with sex was bad. You know, and I brought that into the marriage, but I saved my, my self for marriage. And then when I had the, you know, green light from God, so to speak, I couldn’t do it, I was in pain and uncomfortable. And I still felt like it was wrong, even though it was with my husband. Um, some other challenges I’ve had are getting over my own fears of confidence, and knowing what to do, you know, understanding how to work his body, and how to receive pleasure with mine, how to orgasm, that was a big process, that I thought it was broken for a long time. Another intimacy challenge that I faced was just feeling like my husband wanted sex all the time. And that’s all he really wanted me for, was not for me. And so I tell you, some of these, and these are, you know, there’s more, but I tell some of these examples, because I want you to understand, if you’re listening your wife, if you’ve, you know, experienced those things, I’ve been there. And now I coach women who are there to help them get to the other side, you know, cuz you don’t have to stay there. Your intimacy is so important. It’s vital to your marriage, sex issues, tears, couples apart, the toilet, it tears entire families apart. So I’m just wondering, how can I help you to move to the next stage in your intimacy in your marriage, that you can move through those obstacles that you can get on the other side, where there’s peace, and there’s pleasure, and there’s joy in your marriage, because your intimacy is just the way God wants it to be? The way he designed it to be. So that’s why I want to work with you. So you might be thinking, well, how does she know? You know, she’s just like, a woman like me? How would she know? And just to let you know, I get emails from husbands all the time, in fact, vastly more emails from men than I do from women. You know, I hear things like, for example, here are just some quotes. Because of our sex life, I became very keenly aware of how depressed and unfulfilled I was feeling. Another one said, I was recently feeling like a frustrated and hurt husband. Another one said, she says that I’m pathetic for needing sex. And to add to their hurt, she dislikes my body or the erogenous portions. Another husband said, my wife and I are struggling with sexuality in our relationship. I just listened to your podcast for husbands which is prompted me to write to, I don’t know what more I can do. Another one said, I am in desperate place in my marriage and have been for several years. Another one said our sex life is well, it’s been really tough. Frankly, it’s a source of great pain for me. I’m trying not to tear up as I type this out. So that’s the kind of emails I receive from men a lot. But then I also get emails like this. It’s freaky how well you understand the mind and heart of a man. And the other one said, I think you know more. What guys think that guys do. And that is scary. Keep up the good work. Wish you had been around 40 years ago. And then another husband says I’m a husband, I’m guessing You get a lot more emails from husbands than you do from wives probably like 80%, if not more, I am one of those men who is astonished by your ability to get inside my head.
5:12
And so those are just a couple quotes. Those are just a few, you know, mentions from husbands. But I want you to know that, you know, it’s not to puff up myself, it’s to let you understand that this is real, what we’re dealing with, I’m not just trying to sell you on what I have to say it’s something about what we’re talking about is the real thing. It’s really intimacy, it’s really that important. It’s really that significant. And you need to get the right advice, the right understanding. I will say one other comment I received from my husband, recently, and he said, as a medical professional colleagues do talk about anatomical physiological things that normal people don’t. So I’ve had occasion to talk to some women that sort of get men at some level. But I have never heard any woman that seems to understand and be able to articulate and express the heart of a man as well as you do. It seems to be at a very deep level. How did you learn that? Were you born with that understanding? What did you read? Who did you talk to? It is amazing to hear a lady with the level of understanding that you seem to have. So again, this is not to puff me up or to any of those kinds of things. But I need you to have confidence that I’m not making this stuff up that this is true, this is real. And so if this is what you need for your marriage, if you need to understand if you need freedom, in intimacy, let’s work together. Let’s dig through this one on one 30% off, go there today. delight your marriage.com. And I look forward to working with you.
7:10
Now today, Amy McKinley, she’s here with her second part of the interview. Now after our episode, she kind of goes through step by step some of the bells and whistles of her app. So after the after the episode is complete, if you want to listen to that, and you can pull it up on your phone, you can actually see step by step what she’s talking about. So anyway, let’s dive into her story
7:55
so it’s funny, like three different experiences happened, just the past. It was like about a year ago. The first story is that I was sitting in Las Vegas with some, some girlfriends, and we started talking about one of their daughters, and how she had just barely gotten married. And, and they, you know, kind of asked her, you know, joking around, you know, how is you know, how’s your honeymoon night? And you know, how’s your love? Like, you know, how did it go? And, and she just kind of looked at her mom and said, Is that all there is? Oh, got it. Yeah. And you know, that was just so saddening. Because, you know, all of us were like, oh, it’s awesome. Like, it just takes time. It just takes figuring out, you know. And so it was sad to think that after, you know, several months of marriage, that she wasn’t finding enjoyment and intimacy, being intimate with her husband, especially, you know, they’re so young and the second experience my friend, we were sitting at lunch about a month after that, and told me that her husband had gone into pornography. I mean, that’s a whole different situation than the self, but she was devastated. You know, and there’s so many women going through that and heartbreaking to me, and, you know, a lot of it, you know, she tried blaming it on herself, which was even more sad, but no, like, I don’t really enjoy sex. You know, I don’t, I don’t really want to be intimate with Him. I kind of feel like it’s a chore. And that was heartbreaking to me. After that situation, I was at lunch with a bunch of girlfriends and I, we had talked you know about going through trials together and how we stay strong and marriage and just having a good marriage talk. And she’s like, she’s like, What advice would you give me like, why are you so happy during your hard times? And I was just joking. Joking around. I said, Oh, I just need to have more sex. Yeah. She looked at me disgusted like, Why? Why I feel like it’s a chore. why would why would you say that to me, you know? I’m like, it’s like gift. It’s supposed to be wonderful. And it was saddening to me to hear so many women say that it wasn’t exciting to them anymore, or it had turned into a chore. And so, anyways, so I was kind of, I mean, we’ve always had a really get into it and sex life in our marriage, I, I felt we were figuring each other out fast, my husband’s always been very good at taking care of me first, never being selfish in our marriage. So it’s always been absolutely great. But like I said, we’ve been married, you know, 15 years now. And about six months ago, I just kind of crazy, I wanted to spice it up and do something different. And so I ordered a sex game online, I thought it would be appropriate, you know, no graphics or anything, just, you know, different things to try. And I received in the mail, and honestly, I, I looked over some of the questions and things that was telling you to do with your spouse, and they were not Christian friendly at all. I thought the words were vulgar, very crude, almost like some college kid Hebrew, written them up. And anyways, we decided to play you know, some of the cards and try some of the things out and it was, the game was, it was awesome. It definitely spice things up to the to new level. But we were really kind of offended by some of the language. And we, I sat there that night, and over the next week thinking, holy cow, I have this brilliant idea. I want to make a game where it’s on an app, and it’s on a phone, and I don’t have to play a game on my bedroom in the dark with a flashlight or be trying to use pieces or things that are not appropriate or have bad pictures or bad language. Yeah. And so my idea just started coming along. And we went with net with an app guy and decided to take it to the next level. And so the whole purpose of this game, and this app that we have created, is number one to, to teach couples more about each other in a very loving, great way. It’s entertaining, it’s a great way to just build up your communication, I feel like intimacy can always be improved so much when you are communicating fully, and able to talk about what you like and dislike, and when couples are open with that. And yeah, that’s kind of where it got started. So I hope that answered your question.
12:37
Yeah, that’s so cool. Yeah. And, and now it makes sense that you’re a graphic designer, because it’s gorgeous. Oh, did you do the graph had a
12:45
lot of help? I actually, didn’t we hire that out? I was, yeah, they’re nice. Well, you
12:49
have a good eye for it, then.
12:51
Well, thanks. And you know, I just, in our mission really is to, I want women to enjoy being intimate with their husbands, I want them to be able to talk to their husbands about what they want, and figure out what they want. If they, if they don’t know, you know, a lot of Christians go into marriage not having a clue. Not knowing how they like to be touched or pleased, or how to orgasm. And I, there’s a lot of help out there. I just want women to be excited about it and passionate about it. And it’ll not only affect them wanting to be excited intimate with their husbands, but it will just like we said it. It’s a reaction in so many other areas of marriage, just communication. And I think when a husband and unity and and becoming one with God, I just it’s a beautiful thing. And I just want everyone to be excited about being intimate with their spouse and women especially.
13:50
Yeah, why women especially.
13:53
I don’t know, I guess I there’s a lot of women that love to be intimate. I just I guess with my experiences and a lot of friends and people I know just I, I want to women to stay passionate about it. And I think husbands I think if they and so many men are so so wonderful. Like I have such a wonderful man. If they really take the time to know their wife and their wife’s body and what their wife likes. I think that the women just want sex as much as they do. Yeah, it’s a beautiful thing. What a beautiful thing to be one both want to be intimate. So much the same amount, you know?
14:37
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so earlier on, you said that you’re a very sexual person you always have been. I’m sure there’s wives out there that are like, well, how can I be more sexual? How can I enjoy sex more and I don’t know Is there are there ways that you’re able to help other wives that are not enjoying sex, like just some things that you can tell us at this time. Get your app is the one is number
15:08
one. You know, I think that is why we developed it is because it’s not just about physical, it’s, it’s about emotional and, and it takes a lot to desire to be intimate, you know, they say women, you know, we’re complicated and that it turns us on more when our husbands are doing the dishes and helping with the kids and sending us little love notes or whatever. And we’re also different, but the app has so many different features of all the things that the ways to communicate the differences between men and women. I just think that it’s like, in our game, you know, starts with romance, talking, you know, communicating about life and our M kids and what’s going on with things and, and at a deeper level, you know, communicating that way and, and then, you know, it goes to light foreplay just touching and massaging. And, and, you know, just getting excited to be close with one another. It leads up to wanting to be passionate with each other. And that’s the great thing about the game and ultimate intimacy is that it builds up step by step to wanting to be intimate with your spouse, and I don’t know, it just it’s such a deeper level. The ultimate intimacy takes your marriage to a deeper level, not just sexual, but just communicating. And
16:45
this is amazing. And it’s, it’s very beautiful. It looks like very modern and very, very beautiful. Well, I am so excited. Well, cool. Okay, so let me ask you what do you think the chief three things has been central to your marital success?
17:09
The chief three things, um, definitely God. Faith in God
17:21
because of God, I mean, it kind of all stems out from that. Forgiveness, love and faith. Not just faith in God, but we’re faithful to each other. Like our my husband’s my best friend and, and we have the same goals to be together forever.
17:41
Yeah, that’s awesome. And I just love how much we’ve talked about sex. Because when you are so consistently and so deeply intimate with your spouse, friendship, does that’s a normal response. It’s not, you know, it kind of seems like well, you can’t be their friend if you’re their sexual lover, you know, but that’s actually the opposite. You are incredibly connected, incredibly unified. Best friends because you are so sexually connected. So?
18:17
Absolutely. I feel like because we are sexually close. And we both love to be intimate. It’s made every aspect of our marriage better. We are best friends. We are business partners. We are we work together all day long. We want to be with each other all evening. We we want to be intimate as much as we can at night like he I know. We’re We’re soulmates. I wish everyone felt like that.
18:45
Yeah, I Yes, I completely agree with you. I feel like my husband and I talk about that all the time. We’re like, we just want everyone to have this. Like, you can do so much more for God when you have an amazing marriage. You just you can help people more you can love people more you can give more to others. You can be better parents, like make love to your spouses and yes, good. Okay, great. I love it. So, um, okay, so if you could kind of dial in a little bit and give maybe, obviously, you have a ton of tips or advice, but was there some tip or advice that you wish someone told you about sex early on in your marriage?
19:37
Let me think about that. You know what, I, if I could go back, you know, I never really had any issues in our marriage or in our sex life. I really feel like we figured things out fast. We were we communicated well. I think I was a little hesitant at the beginning of our marriage to tell him exactly what I wanted in the bedroom. I think that I had little fantasies or little Little things I wanted him to do to me that I was a little hesitant to come out and say, maybe this feeling being nearly wet? I don’t know a little shy about that. Yeah. I think if I could go back now, I would just feel like this a little more open in that category and communicating a little bit better in that area. And yeah, I don’t know, I, I feel like we did a really good job. I think we figured it out really fast. But if I would have had this app when we were first married, yeah, it would have been awesome.
20:34
Question for you about communicating your desires as a woman because I think that’s super common, right? We just feel like, you know, we just feel frozen. You know, our mouth is tongue tied. We can’t talk when we’re making love, when you would suggest to a wife when to tell him what you want during sex before after? Like, what? How would you guide a woman who has trouble telling her husband what she wants in bed?
21:04
Um, I would probably would probably tell them to be open with it. Uh, before it started, I, I’m not an expert, I have read a lot about what women want and need in the bedroom. And you know, how different we are from men. And I think a lot of men don’t know quite so much about the woman body. And I would probably just tell them to be very open about it before six, and even during if there’s something that they wanted, you know, not not to hesitate. Don’t have to do it in a way where you’re offending them in any way. But maybe you just move their hand or show them what you like, just to, just to, I don’t know, I think that women are afraid to tell men what they really want sometimes. But when it comes down to it, our husbands really want to take care of us. They want to please us, they want us to find as much enjoyment as sex as they do. Yeah, they really do. They’re not they’re not trying to be selfish. I think a lot of them if they knew exactly what their wife wanted, would absolutely be dying to do that for them.
22:23
Yeah, yeah. Because it gives them the most pleasure to give you the most pleasure.
22:29
Absolutely. My husband, his number one focus is to take care of me first, it always has been. And that’s probably why I enjoy it so much. The more I enjoy it, the more he gets to enjoy it. Yeah,
22:40
it’s true. Yeah, it is really true. It is really true. And I think something that I, again, going back to surrendered wife, because I feel like if you get the stuff with sex, right, if you, if you love, you know, if you do sex, well and love it and do it a lot. And you get the surrendered stuff of respect and appreciation of your spouse. Those two together make for an amazing, amazing a marriage, like in terms of what a wife can do productively to, to be her part of the of the puzzle, but I think in terms of how to speak in sex, I think, using the language I would like, or I love it, when you do XY and Z. I would like to do XY and Z because sometimes, without us meaning to we say things like, Oh, don’t do this. Oh, don’t touch me there are and the poor guy is like he’s just trying to third. Like, he feels like, you know, these big, chunky fingers and he doesn’t know where to go. You know, and he’s trying. So at the same time, if you say things like, Oh, I love I love that or that feels so good, like, try to direct in a positive way rather than direct and negative way. That’s that’s one thing. Yeah, I mean, it’s just one thing to keep in mind as we’re, as we help guide our our man into our pleasure zones. Okay, absolutely. Yeah. Right. So due to your specific marriage, how do you feel you’ve been able to serve and get to know God?
24:26
Oh, man, marriage is the biggest test that we are set forth for. Hmm, I truly believe that he has created two completely different beings and said, Get married and make be joyful, you know. And here we are totally different in so many different areas. And sometimes marriage can be absolutely the biggest test. But that’s why it can be so great to us because we can pass that test and we can pass it together. Yeah. And I just I believe with God’s help But if we’re, if we’re trying to be selfless and loving and forgiving, yeah. And doing all those traits that we know we should do. I think any marriage can succeed.
25:13
Yeah. Yeah, right. And it’s a daily test, it’s a absolutely day by day, minute by minute, I’m gonna do the dishes so that he doesn’t have to.
25:24
It’s never marriage is the most selfless act of love. It really is like, when I am thinking about myself more than I am about myself. And he’s doing the same, we are completely committing ourselves to each other and giving complete service. I, you couldn’t have a happier marriage when you’re both doing that. Yeah, it’s hard. It’s hard sometimes.
25:53
Can I dive into that a minute? I totally agree with that. Sometimes, though, I think how, you know, in light of eternity. I. So here’s a question. How do you recognize God in the midst of that service? I mean, I know it’s his will and these kinds of things. But sometimes I’m like, am I loving this man more than God? Does that ever come to mind for you? And what would you say?
26:25
Oh, I think I think a lot of people question that. Probably. I. Yeah, it’s hard, right? That’s a good one. It’s, I I feel like I love my husband more than anybody. So I know when I see God one day that that love is just going to be amazing. So I can I can’t even imagine, but I don’t know. I? I? Yeah, yeah, that’s a hard one.
26:56
I mean, it’s one of those things like, you know, when Jesus was asked, What’s the greatest commandment, the first one Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, with all your mind with all your strength. And like, and the second is like it Love your neighbor as yourself. And I feel like we so often just focus on the second one, which is love your neighbor like yourself, which has nothing to do with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, all your strength. And, you know, sometimes I throw myself at God’s grace, I’m just like, that feels like this giant mountain that I can’t get even anywhere close to by having, like, loving you with everything that I am. Like, it’s just impossible to love you the way that you deserve the way that I should. And it’s like, well, that’s why Jesus, you know, his grace, is that good? Because there’s absolutely no way. There’s absolutely no way. And I guess the other piece of it may be kind of what you’re saying is like, for me to understand how much I love my spouse, and like that, but times a million is the love that God deserves to also realize that that’s the grace that Jesus gives us that that’s how big his his you know that, that, that because of his sacrifice, we still have access to God, even though we don’t give him what he deserves. So yeah, ultimately, those are some of my thoughts on it. Any other thoughts?
28:33
No, that you just hit right on the head. That was beautiful. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I, you know, until we are in front of God, I don’t think we’re gonna realize how much love he has. That will be something that we experienced, but we can only try our hardest here, you know, to love. Like he does, and we’re just human, we’re, we’re never going to be perfect. And that’s why we have Christ is because we don’t, we don’t have to be, we don’t have to be perfect. We can just try our best. And I think that’s where marriage comes in, is we just have to try our best every day. We just try to, we have to remember to put God first. And when we do that, everything else kind of comes natural. A little we’re a little bit better at forgiving. We’re a little bit better at being self less selfish, and giving to our spouse. And I think that’s when we we feel that kind of love.
29:26
Hmm, that’s beautiful. All right. Well, let me ask you finally, if you could go to back to year one of marriage and sit yourself down. And what is one piece of advice that you would give to you? Oh
29:56
that’s a hard question.
30:00
Get Amy Mackenzie’s app.
30:04
Oh, wow. Yeah. I seriously, I when this app came about, I was like, I want this in every woman’s and husband’s hands, because I feel like it can do so much for a marriage. But
30:22
it’s awesome. So great.
30:25
Yeah, I hope with the whole reason I did it seriously is to just, I want to see more marriages succeed. I do. I just want people to be so in love, that they find the most joy in their entire life with being intimate with each other.
30:45
I had to give a pause there, because I think I might need you to say it again.
30:51
Really, I just want every person to be so in love with their spouse, that the biggest thing they desire is to be intimate with each other. That’s awesome. Cool. Well, thanks.
31:12
I love it. Well, this has been so fun. Amy, I really, this has been great. Yeah, tell me tell everyone where they can find your app, find you. Website, all that stuff.
31:27
Okay, so the app is on the App Store. And it is if you type in ultimate intimacy, it’ll come up. And it is downloadable, free, no charge. With the no charge, you will get all the resources, you’ll get the conversation starters, the products. And the first two levels of the game. If you want to take your marriage and your intimacy to a hot and spicy upgrade for the small price, you get the rest of the game, which is amazing. It’s the heavy for playing the hot and heavy. And it’s it’s just the best intimacy game ever. So I hope that you will all go download ultimate intimacy in the app store and just take that little step of improving your marriage and spicing things up.
32:18
Awesome. Well, Amy, again, this has been such a pleasure, I really appreciate you coming on.
32:23
I’ve really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you so much for letting me absolutely.
32:31
So awesome to hear from Amy on. How important. Exciting, spicy, wonderful intimacy is in marriage. And I just cannot agree more. It really, really is. So go to ultimate intimacy, check out her app, you can listen after the music to find out, you know, more specifically what’s involved in the app, you can even follow along in your phone. But the other thing I just wanted to mention, you know, maybe an app isn’t going to do it for you, maybe you need some real one on one deep work that needs to be done so that you can get to a place where you know fun games or something you’re even open to or maybe some of the stuff that you know, just is not where you need it to be. So I would love to talk to you. I’d love to receive any questions I can answer. You can just send them to belah at delight your marriage.com That’s B as in boy, e l a H at delight your marriage.com I would love to hear emails, any questions you might have. For me there. Anyway, like I said, Go to delight your marriage.com Click on Resources, click on intimacy coaching with Bella. And you can see all the full details. Well, God bless you. Thank you for joining. And again, I love your heart. I love that you want to grow in your marriage in every way. God bless you have a wonderful week. I will talk to you next Tuesday. Oh, and the topic for next Tuesday is actually how my husband who originally proposed to me with fast food became into this amazing romantic husband. Pretty incredible. Join me next week.
34:35
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word. If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion
35:00
So you can download ultimate intimacy. And then pause this. And then once you download it, come back. And then Amy, could you kind of walk us through what? What we would do kind of like, first, second and third, like what are as we’re looking at that first like purple screen?
35:25
Okay. Are you ready? Yeah. Okay, so when you when you first open the app, there is a couple different sections you can choose, you can choose to play the game. We also have resources for physical and emotional intimacy. The Reese’s sources tabs include anatomy for men and women emotional intimacy, which is great. It has some romantic ideas, data ideas, what healthy sex is, and tips for a happy marriage. There are some great resources on that. We also have the tab that teach you some more techniques in the bedroom. If you’re wondering, you know, what women like and what men like those are just some ideas, and they give great descriptions of how to do different things.
36:11
Pictures are so beautiful.
36:13
The great thing about the ultimate intimacy app is that it was built by you know, us and another Christian couple, and we want it to be clean, appropriate. And we just want you to feel good when you’re getting on it together and and doing some real research about likes and dislikes between each other and how to communicate. In the sugar and spice section. They’re fun and sexy dares you can do in the bedrooms. Eight reasons why you should have sex tonight. We also just added which is awesome. If you want to take your bedroom experience to a fantasy escape. We have sounds from the beach and islands.
36:53
Oh my goodness. Yeah. It’s
36:54
awesome. Different audios. There’s a now there’s a mountain Brook Secret Garden romantic for us. Anyways. And then there is a sexy bucket list where if you decide there’s some fun, kinky things you want to try or put on your list, you can make your own little list on there.
37:16
Oh, really? Is it like one that you could save your own? You could?
37:18
It’ll save on your app. Wow, this is amazing. It is amazing. There’s so much to offer so much to offer. If you go into let’s see conversation starters, this is a great way. If you’re on a date, or if you’re just sitting around and you want to get in the mood, but you just kind of want to talk you know and get in some good discussions. We have tons and tons of different things to discuss family life, intimacy, romance, all sorts of categories finances, screen for date nights just driving in the car.
37:55
I’m confused. So I just went to I clicked on conversation starters. And then it gives me one question, is there a way to go to all of the left so
38:04
at the top, you can scroll through the different sections that you want to talk about family life finances, see those arrows at the beginning? Miscellaneous romance there just at the top.
38:15
Oh, yeah. Okay, so the arrows, okay, so I see finances, but there’s arrows on either side. So if I click on that, it’ll go to another one. Oh, that’s
38:22
so cool. Got it. Yep. There’s lots of different topics to discuss. So if you’re out of things to discuss, I’m pretty sure that you’re gonna find something here to start our long conversations.
38:31
Oh, my goodness, oh, this is so fun. And this is ultimately to get you to a place of being connected. And after and done and excited.
38:41
Wow, it all, it all starts with being connected with each other. You know, having a great, deep discussion is always a great way to start. If you go, we also have a product stuff section. We have books that we recommend, and then there’s bedroom fun. Lots of toys, lubricants, pillows, all sorts of that kind of stuff you can use in the bedroom. Cool. They’re all they’re all awesome. Yeah. And they’re all pretty and
39:06
not. Yeah, great. Yeah, they’re pornographic or anything like,
39:10
Absolutely, they come in discreet packaging. They are definitely Christian friendly, great way to order something if you’re hesitant. You know, I don’t know, for me and for our marriage, we don’t like to get online. We don’t like to research about sex. I don’t want to buy I don’t dare buy anything online. Who knows what the package is going to come? Yeah, everything is discreet and just completely Christian friendly, which is what we’re so excited about so people can feel like they’re safe, downloading it safe playing it and safe ordering anything they want off of it. So the best part of our ultimate intimacy app is definitely our game. Like I was telling you about it. The game is amazing. Our app guy did an amazing job. If I could just take a sec to go through. Yes, please. So it is completely customizable, which is so amazing about it. And it’s so personal. So when you first click on the game settings, you actually, there is a view instructions button if you have to go back and read through it. But can I
40:14
just pause for one quick second? If any listener is not looking at the app right now, it’s a free app, just go get it loaded onto your machine. And look at it right now is we’re talking because Anyway, okay, now you keep going.
40:28
Amy. Okay. So the game is the best part of our ultimate intimacy game, okay, or app, it is. Awesome. It’s so first of all, you actually when you click on it, you will type in wife’s first name and husband’s first name. So when you are playing the game, you are actually it is giving you the questions under your name, it is so personal. It’s awesome. That’s cool. It’s so cool. So there’s a romance section of foreplay section, a heavy four play section, a hot and heavy section. And so you can click on you know, if you’re just in the mood to talk, do some massaging that night, great. Just put on those two sections. If you’re really, you know, want to get hot and heavy that night, you could click on all the sections, you know, you could totally customize it. You could select your minutes per action. So what the game is doing actually is taking turns from husband to wife, having the spouse, the wife do something to the husband, and then for that certain amount of time, and then the timer goes off, and then it turns to the other person. So you can pick how long you want those actions to be. You can include if you want oral or not. You can include if you want read aloud actions, so it’s hands free, so you won’t even have to touch your phone. Oh, cool. Okay,
41:43
so you just scroll down, I didn’t realize that. So you scroll down. And then you can see Advanced Settings. Okay, cool.
41:49
Yeah, background settings. So that’s there’s a hands free mode, and it will just read the positions or whatever it’s asking you to do to between each other, we’ll read it to you, so your hands free. And then you can actually go into customize actions. And that is the upgrade, and in app purchase. But that way, you can actually go see every single part of the entire game, all the different, different actions that you’ll be doing between each other, you can see every single one in the entire game and you could thumbs up and thumbs down. Whatever you want to be in your game. It’s completely customizable. So cool. If there are certain things you don’t want to do, or you want it to do, again, it’s you know, it’s kind of like Spotify, you’re completely customizing your game to your marriage, which is awesome. So once you have customized put your name in, put exactly what you want to do, you push play your game, and you push the start button, and it will have a timer. And it will just take turns showing what the the wife does the husband and the husband does to the wife. And then the little timer will go off and it’s other person’s turn. Oh my goodness, it is an awesome game to play.
43:02
Oh, that’s so fun. Okay, so question. So I started with romance and foreplay. So then I, I started it was first a question the husband asked the wife, it was that question. And then I went to the next one, and it said, Oh, is it because I didn’t click start? Okay, but then you can’t skip through it. Maybe?
43:23
You can you could skip through it. Just in case if you don’t like that one swipe over. Okay. Oh, yeah. Anything you’re not comfortable with you just swipe through and go to the next one.
43:32
Oh, so fun. Oh, my goodness. Okay, so I have to ask me. So I see the prices of doing the customizable is like $5 a year at the most, pretty much. So why is it so cheap? How do you how, how do you make money doing this? If it’s so it’s free and then doing it for the year? It’s cheap. Like, is it just a gift, like you give it to everyone? Just out of the goodness of your heart.
44:01
You know, like I I told Nick You know, I would pay big bucks to get an app on my own phone just so I would have this game for us to play. That was my main goal. And now that I have it on my phone, I’m the most excited. Oh, let’s be honest with you like it just, I don’t know, my goal is seriously to strengthen marriages and to get people to love to be intimate with each other and to save marriages. And I I feel like the game is fun. It’s put sparks in your marriage. It’s exciting. It gets you to try new things and a really fun way. Yeah, it connects you you know, like we were talking about with the romance and the foreplay, just talking and getting to know each other better. And like I feel like ever since we’ve had this on our phone and we’ve been playing this game like I feel our intimacy has just evened out. We thought it was perfect. And it’s just that is so cool. That’s our goal. We just want everyone to have it and to enjoy each other. Oh,
44:58
I love it’s so fun. Because I just told you this wonderful romantic story that my husband did for me, which was absolutely incredible. And the funny thing is he and actually he does things like that. Now, he does things like that all the time, which is such a gift. But I’ve recently found out that a lot of times he gets the ideas from other women, because he can’t come up with these ideas himself, which is like, Wait, way to go for him, for him for being so resourceful, but also like, it’d be nice if if there was like something giving him some ideas that he could like, utilize. He could just click the how do i romance my wife and then you know, a million ideas pop up.
45:42
Hey, if a guy if a guy doesn’t know how to romance his wife, turn on his wife give his wife an orgasm, any one of those things. They’re gonna find it on ultimate intimacy. Oh my goodness. I just was really quick. Not it’s designed for both like I would hand this to a man that’s barely gonna get married and say this is a great asset to teaching you all about your your new wife, all the ways to romance her all the ways ways to treat her how to touch her. And vice versa. This is great for a guide to I built this with my husband right by my side is benefiting both people. Absolutely.
Part I: If you’ve felt insecure about yourself, you know the icky feeling that hangs around and corrodes you from the inside. In marriage its lethal, because you and your spouse are trying to put up a facade and it just brings distance. It robs you both of the connectedness you’re meant to share.
Today’s guest shares how she started out very insecure in her marriage. Conflict would scare her and she felt that if she were honest with him, he’d reject her. Their marriage had a rocky journey and she credits God for bringing them through, otherwise she said they’d probably be divorced. And now they’re about to celebrate their 30 year anniversary! Hear how they made it through, and what she’s learned.
Tweetables:
I didn’t feel worthy of being his wife.
I learned that I need to turn to the Lord and let God give me my worth.
Some women feel rejected by their spouse so they just focus on their kids and pour their love solely on their kids and the marriage suffers.
It actually brings safety to the relationship by sharing.
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.
0:19
Hey there, and welcome. I don’t know if you are anything like me, but the feeling of insecurity is probably one of the worst emotions that you can have, I think, because it just makes you doubt everything about yourself everything about what you’ve done, or who you are and what you’re doing what you’re about. It’s just really difficult and when you feel insecure in your marriage, who, because that’s the most, you know, the the closest relationship that you have. So that’s what we’re talking about today, Beth Stefaniak is on. And she’s talking about what that was like in her marriage, how that affected them as a couple and how she got through that. So let’s dive in
1:20
All right, welcome back, delight your marriage listener. I hope you’re doing well. And I am excited to have Beth Stefaniak with me today. Welcome, Beth.
1:31
Thanks so much. belah. I’m glad to be here.
1:33
I am glad you’re here too. And thank you for being here a second time. Yeah, yeah.
1:41
Give it the old college. Try one more time.
1:43
I know, we we ran into a technical difficulty in our first really amazing interview got deleted, or basically, we weren’t able to use it. So. So Beth has been kind enough to record one again. So we’re, we’re doing it again. So
1:58
yeah, maybe it’ll be better the second time. Yes,
2:01
exactly. That’s exactly what’s gonna happen. So yeah. Cool. Okay. Well, Beth, would you mind just kind of saying hi to the listeners and introducing yourself a little bit for us.
2:13
Hi, listeners. My name is best Tiffani AK. I am a pastor’s wife, and have been married. It’ll be 30 years in May. We have three grown sons, which is really hard for me to believe. But our oldest is 26. And we’ve got a 23 year old and a 21. Just just turned 21 About a week ago. And being a pastor’s wife, I know all that kind of comes with that territory, too. So. And also, I’m a life coach. And I have a master’s in marriage and family counseling. So I work with in ticular women, but sometimes I work with couples too. So that keeps me pretty busy. Yeah, most of the time.
3:04
Yeah, absolutely. And 30 years of marriage. That’s awesome.
3:08
Yeah, yeah. And 30 years on met may 30. So Oh, that’s cool.
3:14
Do you guys have plans for the big three? Oh,
3:18
yes, we’re going to Well, we live in the Midwest. But we’re going a little bit further west to Kansas City. And we’re going to visit with some friends of ours from years ago. And just we haven’t been to downtown Kansas City. And we’re going to look at this. You know, I guess there’s like Crown Center and stuff like that. So so we’ve got some fun stuff planned. Yeah. Oh,
3:40
that’s great. I’m glad that you’re taking the time out to do that feel like that’s so important. Yeah, so um, well, would you share a scripture or a quote that has meant a lot to you, either over the years or recently? Sure.
3:55
I, well, there’s several scriptures, but one in particular that has just kind of It caught me and captured my attention when I came across it is Isaiah 54, five and six. And it says, For your maker is your husband, the Lord Almighty is his name, the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer. And the Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted in distress in spirit, a wife who married young only to be rejected, says your God. And that when I saw that, it was like, wow, that’s exactly what I felt. I felt rejected back in our messy marriage years. And for God to say that he is my husband was like transformational. I mean, you hear, you know, he’s the Bride of Christ. And, you know, he’s the lover of your soul, but I’d never really, I didn’t know that there was a Bible verse that where God is saying, I am your husband, you know? So that was really cool. And so now that’s sort of been A verse that I recall over and over and tried to make my focus in my marriage and it has really transformed the way I relate to my husband, to my earthly husband.
5:12
Would you mind reading it one more time, just so me and the listeners can just kind of understand it a little more.
5:19
Yeah. For your maker is your husband, the Lord Almighty is his name. The Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer. The Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit. A wife who married young only to be rejected says sure, God.
5:37
Yeah, that’s really cool. Yeah. So yeah. So God is your husband. And he will come to you as though and as though you were a deserted and rejected wife, right? Yeah, he will be your husband. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that’s very good. Yeah, awesome. Well, I bet this, you know, kind of segues into the difficult season of your marriage, if you’d be willing to kind of share the struggle that you’ve been through.
6:11
Yeah. My husband and I, I think came into marriage with a lot of dysfunctional ways of relating, and a lot of that we learned from our own parents, we had some wounds, some some baggage that we brought into the marriage. And, you know, I don’t know what it is about marriage that really kind of brings all that to the surface. Maybe it’s God that does that. But it was really rocky, even when we were dating, we had sort of a tumultuous dating, relationship and broke up at one point and then got back together, and it was a little bit more peaceful. And we got engaged in and once we got married, I’d say that it was maybe peaceful, we didn’t even have that, you know, they say, honeymoon period of about six months. I don’t think we had six months, honeymoon period. So, um, and my husband, you know, I’m not trying to throw him under the bus. But he’s, he cares deeply about truth. You know, he’s a pastor. And so along with that, there’s that double edged side of being really and I like truth, who I’m that same way, but he’s a little bit more willing to go toe to toe and I wasn’t, you know, back in the early days of our marriage, I did not like conflict, I still don’t like conflict. And he would notice that something wasn’t right. And I would want to withdraw and would withdraw and typically use my withdrawal to hurt him. Didn’t didn’t think of it as that when I was doing it. But yeah, so that ended up create, he felt rejected whenever I was withdrawing, which made him angrier, which made me more nervous and afraid and wanting to run. So that’s, you know, kind of what brought about a lot of our arguments and messiness in those early days.
8:18
Yeah. Well, you know, and that’s something I actually forgot to ask you is a little bit about your and your husband’s personalities, this might be a good, a good time to kind of talk about that.
8:28
Yeah, he’s, he’s very, he’s outgoing. He’s very bold and has strong convictions. He, he, like I said, He loves truth. But he’s also got this really compassionate side that comes out more so with other people sometimes. But I think that’s kind of the way it goes, though. And anyway, he he likes he doesn’t he never wanted to let things go on dealt with, he felt like his parents kind of swept things under the rug. And he was not about to do that when we entered marriage. So any little thing he might notice and bring up and here I am, I come from where I’m afraid of conflict and, and I’d rather just, you know, remain calm and peaceful and, but I might not ever really deal with things, you know, back in that at that point in my life, I was because I’m more reserved. And I am concerned about the truth. I want to be honest, but I think I was just a lot more fearful and insecure. I was worried about him. rejecting me if I admitted what I was feeling or thinking. And so you know, we just kind of, I don’t know how to describe more about my personality. I’m a lot it’s funny because now I feel like I become a lot more Going and a lot more open, with his help through through the years, his refinement in my life, and he’s actually become a little bit more introverted and introspective. So we’ve kind of rubbed off on each other.
10:15
Mm hmm. Yeah. And so kind of diving back into what you were talking about, you know, you mentioned that you kind of felt the reason that you didn’t want to deal with things. Is this insecurity that? If you did share that it might, you might then be rejected? Is that? Is that what you said?
10:38
Yeah, yeah, I don’t think I felt really worthy of being his wife, or even, you know, worthy of being anybody’s wife, any anybody’s wife, if they had any kind of issues with me. I dated a lot of guys for my husband. That kind of sounds weird, but they, they idealized me. And I liked that. But I didn’t like that. I mean, I like that, in the fact that if I was insecure boy, I felt secure in the fact that they felt like, I walked on water. But I knew I needed somebody who could kind of hold me accountable to so long because my husband and I told my mom, I said, this was when I was dating, I said to my mom, Oh, he’s so different. He challenges me and I look back on that now I’m thinking, what was I think? I signed up for more than I ever expected. But God used that. So I don’t see it as a mistake at all. It was just, it was a hard turn to make. And it really, unless I had turned to the Lord, or unless I had really tapped into God’s love for me. I think, honestly, we probably would have ended up divorced. And, as God kind of, confirmed to me that I was somebody have worth and that he gives me worth. It’s really helped me to come out of that shell and be willing to be honest with my husband and and to meet him on a sort of an equal footing instead of feeling inferior to him. Hmm,
12:23
why do you think you may have felt inferior? Were you think that?
12:30
Oh, definitely, from my childhood, in a lot of ways, my family was not affectionate. They didn’t tell each other that they loved one another really until my adulthood, then it became when my mom died, my dad woke up to the fact that, oh, I need to be, you know, more loving, I need to express that more, I need to be more affectionate. But as a child, my home and environment was not that way. It wasn’t as if I felt they didn’t love me. But it was because my parents had a messy marriage and had a lot of conflicts. I felt very insecure in. In effect, I think if they had been secure in their relationship, I think I would have been more secure in who I was. Yeah. So all of that kind of factored into making me sort of this very broken and insecure person once I went into marriage. Hmm.
13:25
Yeah. And, and okay, so you kind of told us kind of the climate of how things were. Have you been able to, if you could kind of pinpoint, you know, maybe some experiences that you and your husband had that kind of exacerbated things? Or? Or how did it kind of happen that things moved out of this way? What, what do you think?
13:51
Well, I think, part well, of course, kids, once kids come along, that adds a lot of complexity, a lot of pressure, a lot of tiredness, a lot of even disagreement on how to, to raise them. And since we both were concerned with the truth, we might say things more, instead of biting our tongue and saying it in a way that is calm and respectful. Especially my husband might be a little quicker to say something that was hurtful, and I would take defit you know, be defensive about it. And so that, that was part of I think, what made it a little messier. I think also, being in the ministry, I say, you know, I have a blog called Messy marriage. And I think another you know, aspect of that is messy ministry. Because ministry, it can be very messy and we started a church early in our marriage, and they met in our home for a certain period of time, and that’s a lot of times When you’re a young mom, you’re tired. You’re taking care of children and you’re having to get the house ready. It’s it’s discouraging when a lot of people, not a lot of people come at first, you know, pressure on my husband, we had to generate in, you know, some kind of financial backing, all of those things were in the middle. And it just really made it hard in those early years. So for me, I look back on that being part of it. I think, another piece of it, especially for young couples, was I relied a little too heavily on my mom. So when ever Gary and I, my husband would, we’d have an argument, I would run to my mother or call my mother and cry on her shoulder, and she would comfort me and say, You’re right, he is a meanie. And I felt really loved and comforted. Because my mom would side with me. But I never come back to her, you know, because my husband and I would usually try to hash it out and get to a better resolution at one at some point, you know, and but I would never come back and say, Well, mom, here’s, you know, the way we thought through that, and how we’ve resolved it. And so she kind of formed this negative perspective that just fed more worth it put more fuel on the fire for me, because I would continue to turn to her. So so those were the, I guess, the big three for us.
16:31
Sounds like you had these insecurities already. And he’s pushing back, you know, really passionate about getting the truth out there and getting things figured out right when they need to be figured out. And then kids go on, and you’re stressed anyway, with the pressures of starting a church and being in the ministry.
16:50
Well, and let me add this to, I think this is common. When children come along, they’re so cute, and so lovable. And if there’s any kind of tension in the marriage relationship, it’s super easy for a mother, a wife to decide that she’s going to pour herself into her children and look for the love that she needs from them. And I think that was in the mix. And my husband probably felt jealous and threatened by that. And I was defensive about it wouldn’t really look at it. You know, at that time, yeah. So I mean, it can make all sorts of challenges in a marriage and really pull a couple, you know, to be a divisive thing and a couple’s life.
17:43
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that that I’m grateful that we’re talking about insecurity, because I think that was definitely something I struggled with, for most of my life. And it’s still, you know, at times I’ll feel insecure about something. And it’s a crushing feeling. It’s a really, I mean, it’s just so debilitating, because you can’t find your footing, you don’t know where to go on in situations. And I can imagine and, you know, that, that, in fact, in my first marriage, I, I felt incredibly insecure, and very, it was just a terrible dynamic, but it was a horrible feeling. And, you know, to feel that way, kind of on a consistent basis in your marriage. You know, how long do you think you had that?
18:34
I think it was until about, I mean, we struggled off and on, and it was pretty subtle, the gradual improvement, but I would say about 15 years ago, we started to carve out a weekly time to just sit and talk. We call it talk time. And so for an hour after usually after we put the kids to bed, we would sit and talk and it wasn’t a time to talk about problems or conflicts, it was just a time to connect and find out about each other’s day each other’s week. And just to build in that friendship, that we that was kind of gone by the wayside, really once the kids came along. And so we started doing that. And I noticed at that point that it started to lessen the amount of, of arguments we had in conflict we had, and I started to kind of feel better about my husband. No, I say that. And I think it really, I’m talking. It took some time it took doing and we were pretty good about making it a priority and not a lot of couples can do that. I don’t know there’s something about my husband’s personality and my personality, that if we decide we’re going to do something, we do it you know, so but I think after a few years, I started to really notice that it was just so very crucial to us feeling connected, and lowering our defenses and really listening to each other because we were doing it at a time when we weren’t hashing out some conflict.
20:23
Yeah, almost like this emotional, peaceful place. And just focusing on connecting.
20:31
Yeah. And And also, we made dating a priority to probably, I think, all throughout our marriage we had dating or family day, a, we called it when when the boys were little, and we would have them in tow on those days. So dating wasn’t as it didn’t happen as often when when we had little kids. But we did still try to make that a priority. And that has carried over to present day. I mean, Friday, I think I mentioned in the last interview that Friday is the day that my husband and I set aside because he’s a pastor, he takes Friday off because weekends are kind of crazy. And we just hang out together. And we we go to the movies, and we go to a restaurant, and and we just have fun together on that day.
21:19
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, Mike, excuse me, might church really encourages having a rest day every week and, and we do that as a family. And it’s just so Oh, it’s just it fills me up so much to be able to just spend that time with my spouse and my kids and have the phone on airplane mode and not check any kind of social media or anything, just just be present. Just fills me up so much. I really agree with that so much. So I kind of want to circle back on this insecurity thing. It’s funny, because I I remember our first conversation, you had said something interesting, you had said that you weren’t willing to admit that you were wrong? Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that?
22:11
Yeah, that was something I think, because my husband was such a, you know, he wanted to deal with the truth. It, it was so intimidating. And so and I say that about him, but my part of it was I came in kind of trying to spin who I was and present this all together person. So it, it really was like, you know, kindling to the flame, you know, it just when you got those two together, it really was a bad mix. And so I would try to cover up whatever it was that I was doing, not thinking that it was safe to share, if I had realized that, that it brings safety to the relationship by sharing, I think I would have done it sooner. But for a lot of years, i i You know, my husband would say, you know, Beth, why don’t you ever, you know, look at yourself, why aren’t Why are you always saying you’re right? And I didn’t really want to deal with that until it was right around that 15 year window. I I remember him saying it to me. And he had said it so many times before. And I would just kind of like, you know, ignore it, and let it go underground. And but this time, it just felt like God was bringing it to my attention. And it was like Beth, pay attention here. This is something that is true. You know, just because Gary is saying it doesn’t mean it’s not true. And so, at that point, it was a real turning point for me. And I started to slowly but surely let my guard down and admit to Gary, when I was wrong. And it was like, you know, you know, they say it’s like Humble Pie tastes really better. And it does. It’s not something that was easy to do right off the bat. But I did it little by little. And the more I did it, the easier. It got. It’s still you know, I don’t want to say it’s easy. Now. I’m saying it gets easier as you go along. And as you do it more it becomes the culture of your relationship. It feels safer to do as you do it. Because I noticed the more I did it, the more my husband did it too. And I think it was a little bit of both I think he was willing to admit, and that made it safer for me to admit to so it was really both of us coming together and doing that.
24:51
Yeah. Yeah, I like that. So just a piece, kind of go back a little bit to what you said. I really like that you said that you were trying to spin who you were, you didn’t feel almost like it, like you didn’t feel secure in who you were. So we’re trying to kind of cover, you know, whatever it was, and spin it so that you look better than whatever it is. And so I think that’s, I just, I just can so relate to that, you know, when you feel insecure about who you are you, you know, everything is at stake your your whole framing, you know, you’re trying to frame things a certain way, because you don’t feel confident enough in who you really are. Right. So I yeah, I really appreciate that. The other thing you mentioned is it brings safety to the relationship by sharing. And I guess my first point out of that is absolutely oh my gosh, like there are so many times when, you know, I finally let down my maybe facade and I, you know, share with my husband, whatever’s embarrassing or kind of shameful, or whatever it is, I finally tell him, and then I’m like, Wow, that feels great. And he feels great. We feel connected. And it was such a life giving moment, it was so important. And I feel cared for in that really important spot in my heart. So I wanted to bring that out from from your, from your comment too. But the other thing I think would be helpful for our listeners to think about, and I know you as a marriage counselor, and you know, in this marriage space in the life coaches, well. You know, what about when a when a marriage is unsafe, it’s unhealthy, and it actually is unsafe to share what’s really going on?
26:46
Yeah, I think you need to, and I think this was true for me as well, I didn’t right off the bat. I mean, I say it, like my husband really brought it to my attention. And God use that. And I began to share with him, but it probably was sharing it with God was that first safe person that I can to venture and be real with be real with God and let him know what I was struggling with. And I also had a lot of really godly girlfriends in my life. And not every girlfriend, you know, I want to say godly, trustworthy friends, because not every girlfriend’s going to help you grow in that some friends might actually make it worse by kind of getting in there and, and saying, Yeah, he is a jerk, and you shouldn’t. Right? Do whatever with with your spouse. I’m not talking about that. But I am saying I had some friends that I was willing to tell them enough about what was going on. And how I handled it was I said, you know, here’s what I’m struggling with, here’s what happened. What do you think I should do? What part of this Can I bring a positive change to and they would hold my feet to the fire, they would really be honest with me and give me good godly sound advice. And that helped me in that environment I could learn I learned how to be real about who I was. And accepting of what I could do gave me gave me the power gave me the tools to go back to Gary and share and be honest with him. So I guess what I’m saying is, it doesn’t have to start off with the spouse. In fact, if your spouse is unsafe, it’s probably better not to start with your spouse, you need to start with the safe and trustworthy people, godly people in your life and begin to develop that skill and that courage in in those safe relationships.
29:06
So let’s say your girls, your godly girlfriends or say, you know kind of responding in that the kind of behavior he’s exhibiting is really not okay. Um, you know, as much as you want to really respect and honor your spouse at some point, you know, if a line is really crossed, where this is not appropriate behavior in a marriage, you know, what do you think are maybe some steps whether the, you know, a listener is going to be supporting her her friends in that way, or what do you think?
29:42
I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking. Can you ask me again?
29:47
I know I kind of throw a bunch of questions at you. So if I were going to be clear about my question, I would say that, you know, what about the situation where, where it’s an unsafe relationship. her girlfriends are telling her that it’s unsafe. Right. So what are her next steps?
30:08
Well, I think in those cases, if if we’re talking unsafe like emotional and physical or sexual abuse, I definitely think that a counselor, a Christian counselor, needs to be somebody that you reach out to, there are also shelters that can give you guidance on how to navigate that. I know that I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t advise a woman in that kind of situation, to try to leave that spouse even. Even though it might be abusive, because there are ways you need to go about that very carefully, because you can actually incite more abuse if you leave without the proper precautions and the proper supports in place. So. So in that kind of situation? Yeah, I think you need to have somebody that has some expertise on how to separate from an abusive spouse, or how to handle an abusive spouse, if you decide that it’s not something you’re you’re not ready to, to remove yourself from that situation.
31:23
And can you give any resource recommendations for a wife that might be in that situation?
31:31
Yeah, I think I mentioned last time, Leslie vernick is like, such a great expert and Christian resource on emotionally destructive marriages, she’s got a book called emotionally disrupt destructive relationships and emotionally destructive marriages. And she had she, her mother actually was in her life, emotionally abusive, and so she’s experienced that she speaks from, you know, her own kinds of experiences. But she’s also done so much research and, and she’s a counselor as well. So she’s very skilled in knowing how to navigate those kinds of situations. And she does it from a godly perspective, a biblical perspective. So she’s one that I would highly recommend, of course, there’s also an Henry Cloud and John Townsend have the boundaries, books, which I’m not sure that they have anything that deals directly with emotionally abuse, abusive situations, but boundaries are always sort of, in these kinds of emotionally abusive marriages, boundaries are typically undefined. And if they are defined, the abuser is stomping on them all the time. So it’s helpful to kind of know, you know, what should I do? How should I set a boundary? What are what are appropriate boundaries in that relationship? So reading, reading on those different topics could really at least give that woman or that husband? Because I’m not, I’m not saying that. It’s always the husband, that’s the abuser. But those that would arm them with some information and some insight as to how to deal with that situation?
33:26
Yeah. No, it’s, it’s really great. Since since our last time talking, I, I’ve checked out Leslie vernick. And I really appreciate what she has to say. And I think it’s right on, it’s really wonderful. And I’ve loved, you know, the boundary series as well as boundaries in marriage. That one I agree with just, it’s so helpful, and just understanding what is what is your responsibility and what’s not? Are you responsible for making your spouse happy? Or is is that not your responsibility? And, you know, what, what is respect? And what, what’s required in that, so? Yeah, I appreciate that. So, you know, I, I kind of wanted to, you know, we had a little segue there, but I think, uh, you know, kind of going back to, you know, what you talked about just a little while ago about, you know, shifting the culture of your relationship to a relationship that you’re willing to admit your mistakes, you’re willing to say that you were wrong, willing to be humble. And that’s something you know, little by little by little it shifted the culture of your relationship. Yeah. And you know, that results in a much stronger bond when, when you both are not, you know, trying to keep yourselves as always being right and having this distance between you but being a little more flexible and a little more. You know, there’s this great analogy. I’m trying to remember exactly what it is. But it’s something along the lines of something like when there’s a storm, and the trees that are really rigid, are the ones that break, but they’re able to when to bend and, and move along with the wind. You know, they’re they’re actually the ones that survive. And so yeah, so I like that a lot. Okay, well, we’re wrapping up the first half of this interview with Beth and I want to thank you so much for joining me today. Definitely come back next Tuesday for the following half of Beth’s interview, we’re going to talk about the biggest lesson she’s learned. So come back then. Thanks so much.
35:52
Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes, as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion
What she thought was just a simple surgery from a chest injury turned into a year of serving and fear and all semblance of control being taken. The threat of her husband’s death and his needing constant help shaped her in ways she didn’t expect. Julie Dibble has walked a hard road in the most difficult challenge of her marriage. But she remembers a quote “A great work requires a great and careful training”. God she believes has trained her through this. But it’s not over and she’s still fighting to be surrendered to God’s plan over her own, every day. Listen in to find inspiration and hope in the journey ahead.
If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!
TRanscript
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.
0:18
Hi there and welcome. Thank you for joining me on the show. I’m not sure if this is your first time, but today, I really have a powerful story for you. You might need to get the tissues ready. I know I did, or at least should have had them ready. I’ve got Julie Dibble on the podcast today she’s got just amazing insights that I really think are going to benefit you. Before we dive into her story though, I just want to share with you that I am doing coaching and intimacy coaching, if you have been with the podcast for a while you know that, you know my focus is really enabling you and empowering you to have the advice and insight you need to have a really wonderful sex life and intimacy in your marriage to really enjoy it and to have that a fulfilling part of your life together and what God really designs and desires for you to have. So if you’re struggling in that area, if that’s something you need, advice on coaching on someone to listen and ask you questions that are going to get to really the root of what you’re struggling with. I would love to be there for you. I’d love to work with you on that. So just go to my website, delight your marriage.com and click on book coaching with Bella you can learn more there. Alright, so let’s go ahead and dive into Julie’s story
1:56
Hi there delight your marriage listeners. belah rose. I’m so glad that you’re joining me. Today I have Julie Dibble with Julie dibble. writes.wordpress.com Welcome, Julie.
2:10
Thank you so much belah.
2:12
I’m glad you’re here. Well, I, you know, you and I have kind of been emailing back and forth. And you and I were just chatting a little bit. And I think this is going to be a really powerful and probably emotional conversation that we’re going to dive into. And so just to kind of start off, would you go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit about your family and what your day to day life looks like? Sure. Julie told me that she is first and foremost a lover of Jesus, though she came to him later in life than most.
2:48
So gracious. I’m so gracious that he stuck with me until I found him he until I accepted him. So my marriage to Jason began what I call in my godless life. You know, it was godless to me, but he was there. And we will have been married. Oh, Bella, we will have been married. I’m counting on them up. Oh, my goodness. Well, it’s it’s funny because we did. Um, we renewed our vows a couple years ago. And we did that on an audio year it was year 11. So I think we are heading to year 13 cuz that would have summer. We’ll be three years ago. So 13 years, and we have two boys. Ages 12 and 10. Braden is 12. And he is a writer. Like his mama. And Jackson is a sports net. He’s 10. And he’s got more energy than all three of us combined. So our day to day life. I’ve been a stay at home mom for oh, I think it’s going on five years now six years. And at the very beginning of that, that’s when it was I was on the cusp of meeting God and I was not happy being a stay at home mom, my husband had married a career woman. And he was in the military. So that’s what we did first and our boys were born in Italy. And there was not many jobs for spouses there on the Italy base. So right away, I didn’t have a career and that was a sticking point for me for a long time. And as I became familiar with God, really one of my first prayers was please Lord, you know that I You know, I, I want a job, I want to use my brain. And so I’m still at home, but I am writing. I am growing as a speaker. And this is something that he’s called me to do. So there you go.
5:17
Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah. So cool. And you told us a little bit. Jason is your husband. Can you tell us just a little bit about your and his personalities?
5:30
Yes. And he is a police officer. So he started in our marriage in the military and when he got out he got became a police officer. So he’s working on 10 years is that if military and police have anything in common, it’s certainly attention to detail. Timeliness, he is very particular with certain things and always has been. I am. I am so and he’s definitely more comfortable in the background of things when I am in the center of things. You know, certainly I am particular about certain things but not the way things look not the way he is in that regard. So what I had to learn when I married him was his humor, his sarcasm sarcastic and very almost quiet, you’re not expecting it. I’ve learned to really appreciate that surprise. Whereas when you talk with me is I’m sure you and the rest of the people are getting to know you know, it’s it’s right here. You know, my smile my my energy i stories, so we are opposite, but boy does that. Mmm hmm. It brings complements to a marriage. It also brings challenges obviously.
7:01
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then what is a scripture or a quote that has meant a lot to you? Maybe recently or over the years?
7:11
Huh? Recently belah. I have I I don’t know if anybody there if you’re familiar with God calling. This is a devotional. And you know, Jesus Calling is the one that you hear a lot of, but this is titled God calling and it’s edited by AJ Russell. We had you know what, I don’t even know who gave it to me, actually. But we started in January. And for a quick history, then my husband had surgery on August 24. He got hurt on the job on his police job. And he had to have a his upper pectoral muscle on his right hand side repaired, had torn. So the fall was when I was supposed to start writing my first book, The Fall was when I look forward to the boys as much as I love them, but going back to school, so that I have time, you know, to think and write and do my thing. And his surgery, God put it right on the day that the kids started school. So there really was no you know, no downtime for me. And in the very beginning of this process, I was I started out very thankful looking for God. We had, I’ll save some of that story for as we go, but it didn’t stay that way. Unfortunately, I really, you know, I fell back into old patterns of wanting my time and wanting more control over things when God that’s not the way he wants us to roll in marriage or anything else. And so when you ask about a thing recently in this devotional, this was only January 22. And it was probably a few weeks prior to this fella that we had the scan that told us that Jason’s lymph nodes in his lungs had grown. So we knew we were headed for some more medical challenges. And this is what I read on January 22. If a gray day is not one of thankfulness, the lesson has to be did until it is not to everyone is it so but only to those who asked to serve me well, and to do much for me? A great work requires a great and careful training. And so I mean, I couldn’t even finish reading the sentence, the first time that I was, you know, just really knew that was for me knew that my lesson was not learned in the fall, and God’s gonna keep teaching me until I get it.
10:32
And, you know, I think the good. I mean, the good thing, the loving thing is that he doesn’t leave, he stays with us. He continues to teach us, he certainly forgives us when we fall. And those are things that I have really come to appreciate about him.
10:57
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, a great work requires a great and careful training. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, you share it a little bit about what’s gone on. And, you know, stories are just powerful. I’m sure that listeners can relate to so much of what you’re going to share. So will you go ahead and kind of start us off with some of the backstory and maybe some of the the season of struggle in your marriage, what you’ve gone through?
11:41
Sure. I’ll start with, you know, when, very briefly the the year that we renewed our vows, so by that time in our marriage, so it was about half of our marriage, that I was not with God. And then I was very young, but I had already been rocking and rolling. And when we became had become members of our church. And so we renewed our vows at our church, which was my first only ever church. With my first only ever pastor who did the ceremony. We, about six months before that, we had decided Bella that we he and I only without the children would go away four times a year. And on our budget, we couldn’t do, you know, week long vacations, but a night or two, four times a year. And that came with just after such challenges in moving around the world, and me having a history of depression, and that we decided, you know, that we were going to put ourselves first the marriage first that God asked us to do that. And it made such a world of difference. And when we celebrated our 11 years of marriage with our vow renewal, we had friends there that were newer friends, we had family that didn’t see us get married the first time because yeah, we got married when he was in the military. So it was just this blessing event that happened in front of God. We really, we wrote our vows, which was so powerful after the struggle we had had to that point. Yeah. So first of all, I recommend anybody to renew your vows in your marriage and the year is not important. It is such a beautiful journey to review why you got together in the first place, and then why you’re renewing how you’ve changed. And so the ironing when I say that is, I really think we could probably do that again here in a year or two, because it’s just been that challenging and that character shaping. So after the vow renewal, we had a couple of years of, I would just really say marital bliss, we we were on the same page, we were doing our spending time together and valuing that and doing things as a family and it just flowed and then this injury happened this past summer and when he got hurt at work, his work, you know, when you get hurt on the job, they you know, he worked light duty until he had the surgery. And I was so confident that this surgery was going to be over and done with I’m telling people at church. Yep. Once we get to August 24, you know, then we can start the healing process. Huh? Well, because it had, he had gotten hurt in July. And again, I have a book God laid on my heart last January, actually a year ago. And I was really planning to have started in the fall. So I had all these things. And again, for listeners who struggle as stay at home moms who kind of you lose yourself a little bit, I was just wanting to wrap myself up in this writing project and doing it for God for people out there. And so you don’t realize I didn’t realize Bella how the selfishness just grew. grew with that goal in mind. And so initially with the surgery I was I knew he’d need my help. I was, you know, okay, you know, doing that. But in the, the first two weeks after he had surgery, we were in the emergency room three times.
16:16
He The first time was scary. He, nobody kind of warned us about blood clots. And I’m not a nurse. So we’re sitting there on the porch one day in his, this was just a couple days after surgery, His arm was huge. And so till we got seen the next day, they were like, You need to go now to the ER. And they were worried it had spread to his lungs. We had you were all day in the ER it was. It was one of those days that I looked for God. I looked for him intentionally. And he was there every step of the way. We had a they got us right in. He had an ER nurse who showed me how to do the shots he needed in his stomach. My friend was able to get the kids and when I didn’t know how to get her the key and the ER door opens. And this man is there. Are you Julie? I said yes. Do you have a key? Yes, I do. It was crazy. And so it was scary, though. I mean, what they were talking like, we hope it didn’t go into his brain. We hope the blood clot didn’t go into his lungs. And so it turned out it was localized in his arm. And of course, we needed to get aggressive therapy started. And fellow one might say I was not meant to be a nurse. Like I you know, raw meat grosses me out, you know, I Yeah. So, the ER, he was a male nurse, and he said, Don’t worry, you got this, I’m gonna show you how to do this. And I am like, I have never, ever done a needle and I don’t even look when they do my blood, you know. But before we left that, er, boy, was he smart, because I had confidence that I could do this for my husband. And it just, it just seemed like I mean, I don’t know, if I’m remembering that correctly. But that may have been the last day that I looked for God intentionally because after that it was everything was a struggle. Jason didn’t like the shots in his stomach. And I understood that but I’m there like I have a mission. I don’t want these blood clots to spread throughout your body. And then he got an allergic reaction to one of the medicines, not the injectable one. But the other one, the Coumadin. And that landed us in the ER. And then they treated him with prednisone, which landed us in the ER again because if anybody has never taken prednisone it’s a really powerful steroid and they gave him they filled him with it to try to get this rash under control. And he was having symptoms that mirrored a heart attack. So gosh, we I and this again I’m just really Oh, I’m slightly ashamed of myself but I say that knowing knowing knowing I’m redeemed but this is the this was the morning Okay, the third er trip the morning of that. Jason is trying to tell me when I don’t feel right and i i have tingling and honest to goodness. I mean, he had had something for that many weeks already. I just was thinking, let’s go for a walk. I really did. I got him out of the house, we went for a walk. And then we get back. And he still says he’s not feeling well. So now I’m looking at him and I’m listening. And I said, All right, I will call our primary care doctor. And they when I told them the symptoms, they just said, you need to go to the ER right now. And again, there we were, again, like racing, the ER, and I’m like, what if I, you know, what, what if I’m in, I’m driving, and I’m like, what if I didn’t take him not knowing he wasn’t having a heart attack, it was just a mess. It was just a mess. And so we get in there. And again, the ER had a chair waiting for him, they knew the symptoms, they got him checked right away. And that they determined it was probably just that prednisone. It was just because they ruled out everything else, that it wasn’t a stroke, it wasn’t a heart attack. And after that, I just It had taken so much energy.
21:11
And I wasn’t asking the Lord to replenish that energy Bella, and it just depleted and I everything was a struggle, he he couldn’t drive for the longest time, I had to drive him to PT for his arm. And that was three times a week. And each time we’d go I’d feel like this is more writing time that I don’t have. He and I slept apart during this time, because he couldn’t sleep in the bed, he couldn’t lay down. So you know, ladies and friends, it doesn’t take long for a huge distance to grow in a marriage. That was only from August, to November, the beginning of November, that he went back to work light duty. And it was it was that it was that quick. And now what I want to say is just to know on how God made men, and how they need a physical outlet for their stress. And Jason, who typically worked out who typically, you know that in exercise workout, and then he typically worked a 12 hour shift as a patrol officer. So for him to have nothing to do but sit there because he couldn’t move his arm and he couldn’t exercise and he couldn’t break a sweat with just walking around the neighborhood. I believe that contributed of course to our difficulty because he’s not used to talking out his feelings. He’s not used to. He’s, I’ll say he, I don’t think he was used to me not being available. So even though I was home, I wasn’t available, because when he would do shift work, I would make sure he had the meal ready when he came home no matter what odd time that was, you know, I was available around his work schedule. But here he was here all the time, needing so much and I was not as emotionally available to him. And you know, we had a few very, very hard, hard discussions where it scared me It scared me that he was that frustrated and it scared me that I had allowed myself to become that distant
24:07
so as we went into December, I did start to ask the Lord specifically like I think I took for granted Bella that after when we were in that marital bliss phase, I just took for granted that these feelings would just naturally always be there for my husband. Yeah. And I, I am here to tell you that, you know, for me and the rest of the women who enter into a marriage, you do have to choose each day to love your husband. And I let time go not not knowing why those feelings weren’t there. And so when we hit December I started praying specifically, Lord, please, please give me the energy She, and the want to want to be intimate with my husband tonight. Yeah, yep. You know, please give me sweet words, Lord out of my mouth, so that my husband can hear that I love him. I mean, I just started praying very specifically like that. And, yeah. Um, so, yeah,
25:28
that’s powerful. I mean, I, I think, you know, so much that you underlined first of all, such a hard, very, very hard struggle, I mean, over and over again, you’re, you’re faced with the potential that he might die, right, right there right in front of you. And you have to, I mean, complete fear, complete anxiety and rushing around and all of this and then months of having every single day to take care of him. I mean, I can only imagine what I mean, how incredibly difficult. That is. And I think that, you know, health challenges are so hard, and so hard on marriages. So I love that you said, you do have to choose every day to love your husband. And another thing you said, is that you know, you are exhausted, but you didn’t ask God to replenish shoe for energy. So I guess I kind of want to hear a little bit more about just how you were able to keep going. What was that transition? Like?
26:46
Oh, sure. Bella, are you talking about when I was exhausted? You mean?
26:50
Yeah. And then I mean, now it seems like your perspective has shifted? How did that happen?
26:57
Um, okay, so, a little. Another thing about me and my husband, when you asked about personalities, we’ve identified this in the marriage, he and I, that we came together as two people that were self sufficient and independent. He’s the only member of his family that lives outside of the town that they all grew up in. If that gives you any idea of his independence, okay. And for me, as at a very young age, I had to take care of things in the house. So I say that because in a marriage, where two people are self sufficient, it’s you need to be intentional to depend on each other. And when I’m, he’ll tell you, when he works, and he works, night shifts and swing shifts, he pushes through that, that’s his determination that God gave him that’s his, you know, he pushes through that he doesn’t necessarily ask me for help. So we are in a very big learning phase. So for me when I was exhausted, you know, and not asking God I was pushing through, I was still getting up at 4am in the morning to do my devotions and my I don’t remember when I think I started my blog in September so I was committed to that you know, I needed something of mine and Hi, I did that because I wanted to the drive the self sufficient driving there again God says you do not need to be self sufficient child. Um, maybe you choose Bella wet at the beginning of every year, maybe you choose a word or a verse. So there I was watching social media, the beginning of this year going, I don’t really you know, I don’t really have a word I was so kind of still overwhelmed that I didn’t think one word would really help real um, but in prayer, and I really do do that. You know, I do that a lot. So in prayer, I heard surrender. And God forgive me for saying one word wouldn’t help because from the beginning of this new year, fella, daily, daily surrender, the control that I want, surrender my fear that I had about this other possible diagnosis. Surrender surrender the fear that my husband and I, you know, can’t get back, surrender it, give it to him, and he will take it. And then that allows once you empty, it allows him to fill you up. So, wow. Yeah, yeah. Yes.
30:25
That’s so good. Once you empty it allows him the space to fill you up. Mm hmm. So powerful. So, so, you know, as you well I do quantum want to hear a little bit more about you said the fear of this possible other diagnosis. So, you know, we knew about the the blood clots and that kind of thing, what ended up? Where did it go from there.
31:00
So, when, actually the day they scan him in the ER, so like, two days after the surgery back in August, they scanned him, his lungs, because they wanted to make sure there were no blood clots in there. And on that day, they found all these nodules in his lungs. And we were in our primary care, doctor’s office somewhere along the way. And he was like, Oh, we’ve got a, we’ve got to get those looked at. He was assessing Jason’s history of working overseas, of doing construction work of all these things. And I’m like thinking, I’m thinking, we can do that after Right? Like after the arm is going, we could go to get that taken care of. And he was like, no. So we, in October, he had another CAT scan, specifically for this thoracic cardiologist. And they, the results of that in October were that his lymph nodes and his lungs lit up under this test. And that was not what they were expecting. And in October, it was still close enough to the surgery that we accepted the doctor saying it is possible that your lymph nodes could be still overworking because you just had all this trauma to your body. And we opted to do nothing until January. And so it was it was agreed that we would get him another scan in January. And so the fear of cancer came fell out when we learned that the lymph nodes had grown. And the doctor said, well, the growth was slow. And you’re thinking that’s supposed to be my good news. So I I really didn’t think it was anything else. I thought that’s what it was. And I have lost a mom to cancer. I’ve lost an aunt, sir, I’ve lost a dad to a heart attack. I’ve lost I mean, a lost a lot of people in my life and I was at ready to lose him. So when God gave me surrender, it was Julie, I mean, just like literally I’m very visual. So I visualize putting Jason’s lymph nodes in Jesus’s hands and say, I know you can heal them if you want to. I know if you want you know if it is your will, that’s what we will do and I will serve I will be there I will do because it’s you know, the lessons that I learned from this past fall and so it’s it’s so like, I it Our brains are so powerful. Our brains like you want to believe something so there we were in the doctor’s office just yesterday going you really? You really think it’s just this stuff? Like you didn’t you checked everything I said there’s no cancer in there. And he was like, No, we suddenly found no malignancy and I just walked out of there. Like not even not even out of the building in the elevator. Can we praise Jesus? Can we tell him thank you can tell him thank you because, yeah, I mean, the difference in an autoimmune and cancer is huge. I mean, you still have to manage that one but you’re not going key through chemo and radiation and uncertainty and, and losing your hair and you’re you know, you’re not doing that.
35:02
Right. Right. So, you know, you and I chatted a little bit before, but just clarify what was found and what they thought it was.
35:10
Okay, so. So the SAR, Koi dosis is the diagnosis, and it’s this thing that can happen, and mostly, I guess, in your lungs. Unfortunately, Bella, there’s not a lot known about this particular auto. Yeah, the way that God is taking care of us is the surgeon gave us a specialist he knows. And this specialist loves this disease and studies that, Oh, yeah. If you’re gonna, if you’re gonna have, again, if you’re gonna have to be treated, you might as well treat it by the guy who loves the disease. Yep, yeah. So
36:01
that’s awesome. Wow, okay, well, praise God. So he doesn’t have cancer, he does have an autoimmune disease. But is it so it is treatable? Yes.
36:11
I mean, it’ll be managed, it’s, it’ll never like probably go away. It comes and goes in one’s life, the way auto immune, excuse me things do. And, excuse me, but I’m confident with the referral to the specialist. I’m confident that, you know, in God that we will get this under control. And, you know, there’ll be a medic to help his symptoms and things like that. So.
36:46
Yeah, absolutely. You know, it sounds, especially since you’ve had so much loss in your life. You know, you were talking about your aunt, your mom, your dad. You know, how was it dealing with the fear of potentially losing your husband? How did you deal with that for months on end?
37:19
I think, again, you had asked, like, when did the perspective change? I don’t think I’ll be honest, I don’t think I was dealing with it very well, from August to November. But I will say on that first day, that blood clot day I was intentionally looking for God and he was everywhere around me. And you know, that was a change for me and how to look for him. That was good. And in December, you know, so many things happen that I’ll tell you what happened. God took my hand, and he walked me back through my parents deaths. Because when they both died, I was not with God. And that contributed for many years to it was grief, upon depression or depression upon grief, you can’t tell. And so there is a post on at my blog on the website you gave it’s called Hope in the lonely Christmases or hoping the lonely Christmas losses. And it talks about how I am good now. I can go back there in the pain because he’s with me. He he God is with me. And I think along any fear that I had for Jason, the thing that I learned most over I mean, it’s so hard but overall fella was that I am never alone
39:18
I don’t want to be without my husband. That would not be my choice, but I am never alone. Yeah. Yeah.
39:33
I think if listeners out there who needs encouragement in this way, where she’s struggling with the potential loss of her husband, you know, what would you say to her?
39:50
First I would say that you are beautiful and you are brave and you are are asked by God to be with him in any way that you can be with him, your husband. And while you are with him your husband, allow Jesus to be there with you. Allow him, because when we say yes, Jesus, He is there. And so then he will he is, I mean Jesus, he can be your strength, he can be your comfort, he can be your healer, he can be your listener, he can be your ever. So gracious Redeemer when you screw up because you’re under stress when you lose your way, because you just can’t do one more thing. And he will take that and he will use it and he will forgive. And he will guide and he will teach.
41:11
Yeah. Well, I hope that you have been impacted deeply about what Julie has taught us, you know, a woman who has been through it. And I don’t know who’s on the other side of this podcast, maybe you have to, and you needed to hear her story and needed to know that Jesus is listening. He’s with you. He’s working with you depend on him, bring him into this situation, allow him to be God, and to hold you in it. He knows pain, he knows suffering, and he wants to be with you in it. Thank you so much for listening. I know the second half of this interview gives a lot of great insight, Julie shares about what’s brought them through these years, and especially his most recent months of marriage, and so let’s go ahead and sign off for today. But I’ll see you back here next Tuesday. God bless you. I’m praying for you your marriage and your walk with God. Talk to you soon.
42:30
Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom in passion.
A wife who knew something wasn’t right, but she denied that it could be happening in her marriage. For years, she didn’t acknowledge what she had found out. But what was bottled was actually eroding her sense of sense of self and eventually she felt like she was drowning. This is the story of a woman who had a healing process to go through after uncovering her husband’s addiction. Its not an easy journey and one that happens far too often. I’m grateful Lynn Cherry shares her story and I think it will bring you encouragement today.
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.
0:18
Hello, and welcome. I’m glad you’re joining me on the delight your marriage podcast. This is a show where we talk about marriage and sex and intimacy in all its forms. And we also talk about the struggles and challenges that can occur to married people and people in this world. And pornography is something that is, is just rampant in our society, and so many people deal with the addiction. But then how do we heal from it? And here’s a woman’s story that is raw and difficult and painful. But how she got through it and how when she felt like she was drowning. You know, God brought her through the most difficult struggle and season in her life. And she has hope on the other side. And that’s what she wants to bring us today. So let’s go ahead and dive in and listen to her story.
1:33
All right, welcome back. delight your marriage listener. I’m excited that you’re here. And I’m excited to be with Lynn Marie cherry. Welcome, Lynn.
1:42
Oh, thank you so much for having me on. Glad to be here.
1:45
Absolutely. I am too. And we’re gonna dive into your story and and hear how, you know God has brought you through so much. And Lynne has a website Lynn Marie cherry calm and we’ll give you the details of that in a little while. But first of all, Lynn, would you go ahead and introduce yourself and your family and a little bit about your day to day life?
2:10
Yeah, absolutely. So I live in Texas. I was born in North Dakota. It’s about as far away from Texas as you can get. But I think I was meant to be a southern girl. I love it here. I love the southern hospitality. I only my northern accent comes back when I talk to my parents on the phone. I do love I love being here. I went to college in Oklahoma. And that’s where I met my husband. He had gone to Bible school in Oklahoma. So we met there at a church and I have a degree in biology. Like I used to be a real smart girl before I had. They took all my brain cells. Right. But now I work for my local church. here in Austin. I’m just helping people get connected, letting them know there’s a place for them to belong. And I really enjoy doing that. My husband and I have been married for 25 years. Wow. I know. That’s a big wow. We celebrated our anniversary this summer. Had a great time in Mexico and just enjoy the triumph of that landmark and being able to celebrate it together. So just a little bit about us. Okay, I’m the firstborn. I’m like a rule follower a people pleaser. My husband was the baby of the family. He his little life of the party. Just that whole opposites attract for sure. But it’s been it’s interesting. I was thinking about it. And we have so rubbed off on each other over the years, we’re shaping each other and I definitely become more assertive, and you know, standing up for myself a little bit more than I used to for sure. And he’s definitely become more gracious. And so it’s a good thing. We have two boys. They are 19 and 16. Two teenagers who are also opposites. It’s so funny. They are my my firstborn. Very cautious, very thoughtful. Just definitely a processor. And then my second son is just he’s an actor he is all about. He’s all about drama. He’s got his high school musical coming up here in a couple of weeks. So I like to say they are caution and caution to the wind. Those are my
4:45
that’s wonderful. Wow, teenagers and two boys. So I have two boys also. And you said 16 and 19. Yes. Okay. Yeah, so they’re not too far apart in age. They were three years difference. So you had your head In school,
5:01
I did I did I and I’m glad I’m so glad not to be in that infant toddler season is like the most physically exhausting season of motherhood. So it’s a little bit more mentally spiritually taxing at this age.
5:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and minor in the toddler phase. So I’ve got a one, or he just turned two. And then the other ones three and a half. So bless you. Yeah, I’ll take it. Um, so, well, you know, this, this podcast is really encouraging wives and their marriage and their intimacy and their walk with God. And so I would love if you could share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years.
5:47
Or even recently, yeah, one of my, my, probably my like, first, like one of the most important passages in my life has been Isaiah 43. And especially verse two. But it says, this, Thus saith, the Lord, Your Creator, oh, Jacob, and he who formed you, O Israel, do not fear for I have redeemed you, I have called you by name and you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you. And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. And when you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched. Nor will the flame burn you. And there was just a season in my life when I felt like I was drowning. And I remember reading this verse one day, just feeling like the Holy Spirit was talking to me and just saying, keep walking, baby, keep walking, just put one foot in front of the other and don’t quit. There is a way through.
6:53
Yeah, that’s powerful. That’s so good. Well, I want to hear, you know, that this difficult season and struggles, you know, God teaches us so much and those really dark times and, and then it gives us hope when we get through them. So yeah, would you be willing to kind of share that season with us?
7:18
Yeah, it was, it was, you know, it’s a long process of realization. I remember early early on in my marriage, having a feeling like something wasn’t quite right. I, I just remember walking by our home office, and I was pregnant with our first son. And so you know, dealing with like, body image and like, my belly has sides. Just struggling with some of that also happened to be the same year that our house was wired with this brand new thing called the internet. And I remember walking by our office at home and thinking something’s not right in there, like something just didn’t feel good. And yet, at the same time, thinking, you know, it’s probably not a big deal. And I maybe I really don’t want to know what’s wrong. And so I, I chose to deal with this thing, really, with denial for for a long time. And then when I was when we actually when we brought our second son home from the hospital. So three years down the road. We brought him home from the hospital. And it was the week we brought him home. And okay, here little birthing side story. My first son was asteria, like 20 hours of labor. And finally, just get up, get him out. Gosh, and then but my second with second son was born in 20 minutes. What I know is I remember the nurse was like, if you have another baby, you’ve got to get to the hospital sooner. Just it was, well, he was two pounds smaller. So that made a big difference. But I was just on cloud nine thinking I could do anything like I just gave birth to the child and 20 minutes like I’m the powerful woman. Yeah. Feeling living on cloud nine and just in a high and we we brought him home from the hospital and one night I was up late feeding him and I saw the light on in our office and I remember thinking like this is great because I’m not the only grown up awake in the middle of the night and walked over to the office and I opened the door and just in an instant I felt like the tangible presence of lust just steamy entice And then followed very quickly by the suffocating oppression of shame like the one two punch of the enemy. And I saw pornography on the computer screen. So there in that moment, like this thing that is not quite right, is right in front of my eyes. And yet I did what I knew to do, I chose denial. And I closed the door, and I walked away. And I just continued pretending and coping. And I did that for four years. I like to joke that I was a zombie before the Walking Dead was cool. You know, I just just existing and just shuffling through life and really feeling like, I would probably never be happy. And at this stage life is really all about trying to provide the best possible life for my children so that they could be happy, you know, I wasn’t willing to give up on their happiness. And so that was my life for a long time. And then I got a gift, an unusual gift. i It’s the gift of anger. And I know that sounds crazy, but I really am so grateful for my anger. I was okay, being sad. I was okay, feeling lonely. But when I got angry, it scared me. And I knew I needed help. But I just thought I can’t continue to live like this. I’m a basket case. I like started swearing I had never sworn in my life. And I just was there’s so much emotion that I had stuffed in and just it started spewing out wasn’t pretty. But, um, that that anger finally was the catalyst for change. And I remembered I remember telling my husband one day like, I, I need help. We need help, but I need help. And I’m going to call a counselor. You can either come with me, or or not. But I have to go.
12:21
Yeah. Yeah. What, um, while you were, you know, in this four year period, I mean, was it on your mind a lot that, that he was doing this behind your back and engaging in this sin and betraying your marriage? And what was that? Like?
12:47
You know, I don’t, I wouldn’t say it was on my mind, in the forefront of my mind. I really did a good job of stuffing that in the back. And it wasn’t a focus of my life, you know, plus, I’m incredibly busy and with with two little boys. And, gosh, I’m so thankful for them to like, they just, they were the reason I got out of bed. I remember one morning, really not wanting to get out of bed and the boys were up and I just went and got them out of their rooms. And I brought some Matchbox cars and put them on the bed with me. And just for as long as they would I’m like just just, you know, drive your cars on the bed and hang out here with mommy. And you know, and finally they’re hungry and I have to get up. Yeah, they really were, they really were a gift of life for me and helps me to, to keep keep living. Just to give me purpose. I don’t think I gave a lot of time and space to what was happening in my husband’s life. Just really chose denial. It wasn’t until we actually did go for help. And I call the therapist. And we went you know, to that first appointment, just scared, really wondering, are we going to make it through this, but at the same time knowing it, whatever happens, I can’t live the way I’m living now. So we went to that counseling appointment. Just you know, hoping that something would change.
14:32
Yeah. Yeah. Had you ever been to counseling before or was this new for you?
14:42
That was a that was new. Definitely a brand new experience. But you know, I’d had a lot of actually, part of the reason why I finally had the courage to get help is that I had a friend who shared with me A Story of a betrayal in her marriage, her husband had had an emotional attachment to another woman. And I remember sitting across the table from her at Starbucks, just crying over this shared betrayal that we had, we were living through. But she had gone to therapy. And they were using the same people that she she recommended. She’s the one who recommended that therapist that we used. And I remember like sitting, sitting and looking at her across the table and thinking she is on the other side. Never pain that I’m drowning, and she’s on the other side. And if there’s an other side for her, there has to be an other side for me. So there was never a stigma about going to therapy, which I’m so grateful for. Plus, our church at the time totally supported us and carried us and, you know, encouraged us to get counseling.
15:56
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That’s awesome. Yeah, counseling is so important. We’ve been before it’s, it’s just, it’s a wonderful resource. Okay, so what was I mean, what was the process like in counseling, if you don’t mind sharing?
16:16
Well, that’s when the work started for me. I mean, I was really good at pretending and denial, until you know, I ran out of space. So in counseling, honestly, it felt like every week, they’re scraping my wound. So the first, the first week of our 12 week group session, every couple goes around the room and you share, you know what it is that qualifies you to need a fair recovery. So we all tell our stories. And then the second week, we went back for our second session, and a new couple had joined our group. So everybody had to tell their stories again, for their benefit. Third week, a new couple joined. And so again, we have to tell this truth of our lives that I had been pretending about for so long. I remember on the way to the fourth class, just telling my husband, there’s another couple there, I quit. I’m not telling to get like I’m dead. But I really think that God knew I needed to speak that truth. I needed to, I needed to tell the story. And that was part of coming out of denial. But it was grueling. It was grueling for me as a pretender to have to really start began to address the issue.
17:46
And so so as you were, you know, processing through this, I mean, what was the process for your husband? Was he? I mean, did he was he able to totally stop? Or was it a process for him to, you know, get off the addiction? Or how did it work?
18:03
Yeah, it definitely was a process. And I think the first step was acknowledging the fact that, that it was a betrayal. No, I think, in his mind, it was just pornography. It was this issue that he had, that didn’t affect anyone but him. And so I like one of our first sessions, there was a survey and at the end of the survey, it said, circle one betrayed or betrayer. And for both of the both of us, like that was a moment for me to say, oh, yeah, I have been, I’ve been betrayed, or even for my husband to go, Well, I know I’m not the betrayed, but that makes me a betrayer. So, you know, acknowledging that pornography was a betrayal, and that it wasn’t, even though it was his issue. It affected me. And pain and the journey that I had in recovery is very similar to a woman whose husband has had an affair with another woman. So that was definitely a big part of his his owning the issue. You know, another part for him was just discovering hope. No, he was seven years old when he found pornography in the woods behind his house. And then, you know, found it in his home and so it had been a part of his life from the time he was seven. And I think he had tried you know, many times like just to white knuckle it or Jesus and me like, we’re going to kick this problem. And and that didn’t work for him. And so he really was hopeless thinking, I, you know, this is my thorn. I’m stuck with this issue. But as we began to go to therapy, and he discovered some of the tools to break free Like he grabbed ahold of them. And, you know, there was this inequity in our recovery, like maybe I made the first phone call for us to get help. And he was maybe more reluctant at the beginning. And then he began to find hope, and freedom. And he was committed to walking through that recovery. And then I was like, I want to go back to pretending year was where I was driving recovery. And then when he was driving recovery, and he, he really began to move us both forward and just be very kind and gracious to me and all of my emotional wigged out moments. And no, he really, ultimately, even though probably caused, was part of the biggest pain in my life. He was a big part of my healing.
21:01
Yeah. Wow. Um, you said that that he, you know, he got resources and different things that gave him hope, were they? What forms were those? Were those books? Or were or ministries or what kinds of things did he get ahold of?
21:23
There were a couple of different resources. Of course, there was the group that we went to therapy with him, they specialize in sexual addiction. And so they really knew how they really know how to help people break free from sexual addiction. He also met Jonathan Doherty of brain be broken.com and met with Jonathan several times, and he was a great resource to David, this was before a fight the new drug, I know that they have a great resource for defy, that’s an awesome tool a lot of people are finding help with. But we we did sign up for covenant eyes, just online accountability software. So we still use that, you know, that’s part of the safeguards that David chose to put in place. And so we’ll probably use that for the rest of our lives, it helps him knowing that if he were to give into temptation, I would find out about it, and his friend would find out about it, and people would confront him. And so covenant is definitely part of one of the great tools that that helped us.
22:35
That’s great. And I’m gonna have all these listed on our show notes, all the all the different resources you said, so people can get it easily. So, so in his recovery, you know, and yours, how was it just in terms of your relationship? Kind of before things happen? Like you said, you were a zombie. But what were you like to him? were you, I can imagine you weren’t warm and affectionate? I mean, what was it kind of like?
23:05
Well, really, just a lot of going through the motions. You know, I mean, we still we bought each other birthday cards, and we wrote nice messages. But I was so disconnected from my heart and from my soul. And then, so there was a lot of pretending, going on and doing the thing that sounded like the right thing, even though my heart wasn’t feeling it. And then, of course, honestly, the two years of therapy were very rocky. And there were times where I didn’t think we were going to make it through together. There were times he thought we might not make it through together, but we somehow managed. I remember for a while, Fridays were fight day. And I’d go Thursday night thinking, Okay, we’re going to get up, we’re going to take this kids to school tomorrow, and we’re going to fight about something. Just it was the one day the kids weren’t in the home. And we were both off from work. And inevitably, there was something that got stirred up the day before and counseling that we were going to argue about and, and it was that way for a while. It was very, very stressful. I dealt with anxiety and chest pain and not insomnia. It was it was really, really hard. But then really coming out of that, you know, two years of counseling and doing the work and owning the issue and finding a place where the marriage that we have is not perfect, but it’s real. And we are honest with each other. And really we have tools now, relational tools, after therapy that we did not have, you know going into that so it really even though it was difficult, the hardest thing I’ve done in my life, it enriched our relationship and gave us a lot of knowledge and a lot of skills that we didn’t have.
25:16
So if if you just kind of thinking about talking to a wife that maybe she knows that her husband’s in pornography, what would you kind of give? In terms of advice to her?
25:31
You know, one of the first things I want to say is that it’s not your fault. I think a lot of us as women, it just is so crushing to know that your husband has this other thing was life and something else that’s satisfying in him in this intimate way, and it’s not you. And I think some men will place the blame on their wives shoulders, and then some women, we we take the blame. So I just want to say, at the at the start, that it’s not your fault, that it’s not about you, yes, it does affect you. But it’s not about you. And then I think my challenge would be to own the reality, but own it in a way that it does not become the epitaph on your life or your marriage. You know, one day I was reading my Bible and reading the love chapter. First Corinthians 13, and no Love rejoices in the truth. And it just made me so mad. I’m like, How could love rejoice in the truth of my life. And I was frustrated with that scripture. But in that same moment, the Holy Spirit reminded me that knowing the truth is the first step of freedom. And when we know the truth, the truth will set us free. So even when the truth is ugly, it’s an important step to freedom. So own the reality, then the second thought would be find support. Like you, this is not a journey, you want to walk through alone, I had three friends. Honestly, like sometimes you want to go and dump your dirty laundry on the Boulevard for everyone to see. And like, Hey, this is what’s happening. You’re posted on Facebook, I guess that’s the boulevard of our day. But I think it’s more helpful if you’ll just find two or three people who will faithfully walk through the journey with you. So I had three friends that really helped me unpack the baggage of my life. Just listen to me, I had a friend that watched our children when we went to counseling, and I would go pick up the boys and the kids would all go outside and play. And I would just rehash what happened and process with her and it was so helpful. One of our pastors wives was part of my support team. And I remember just calling her and I would call her and I would think she’s looking at her caller ID and saying, oh, no, it’s Lynn again. But she kept answering. And I remember her telling me like, like, God has you, and God has David. And you can trust. Even when you feel like you can’t trust David, you can trust God and keep your trust in God. So having that core group of support will really help a lot. And, you know, another piece of advice would be don’t wait until you’re done. You know, women, we can cope and Cove and we put up with stuff. And then we’re exhausted and tired. We’re like I am done with this issue. I am done with this marriage. And then you want to confront confront the problem. But that’s when, like, that’s when the real work starts. So don’t wait until you’re absolutely done before you try to get help before you reach out and look for help save some energy for recovery.
29:27
Yeah, yeah. What about the wife that’s thinking, well, it’s not all that bad. Like, what about those? Where she’s like, well, you know, he can he can do that. Because, you know, all men kind of need that or whatever. Have you heard of women kind of thinking that way?
29:50
Oh, for sure. Yeah, I think you know, our culture definitely normalizes pornography. But The more I learn about pornography the more I see how damaging and how destructive it really is. There are very few people who will begin using pornography and continue using the same type of pornography, the way that it interacts with our brain, all the chemicals that are released. There’s it’s similar to drug use where you need you need novelty, you need a stronger drug, you need a bigger high. And so people begin looking at one type of porn and two years down the road or five years down the road find themselves looking at material that would have disgusted them when they started. And that’s just the nature of of pornography use it escalates. And people find themselves looking at things that they would have never imagined looking at. And but all pornography is dehumanizing. All pornography is is destructive toward women. It does not empower women. It and so I think I would challenge the thought that it’s okay for him to look at porn. Yeah, I don’t think it’s okay at all. I think it’s going to end up really damaging your marriage, and altering the way he views sex. And the way he views you as his wife.
31:37
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I really appreciate that. I just, um, you know, it’s a, it’s a heartbreaking. I mean, I think the, the theme of this conversation is really recovery from it. And I think, you know, I think the kind of knee jerk reaction I have to it is, you know, just extreme, you know, negative feelings towards it, you know, but then I’ve heard other women that have just felt so differently, and I just feel like we needed to give some air to why it’s not okay. And what, what God thinks about it, I just can’t, I can’t believe that. I mean, I love how you kind of said in the beginning that, you know, just this tangible presence of shame, you know, directly after this, this presence of lust, and it is, it’s, it’s so shameful for the man. I mean, in, in in, I think it’s proverbs five, it talks about adultery as it destroying your soul. And, you know, Jesus talks about lusting after another woman is committing adultery with her in your heart. And, you know, destroying your own husband’s soul is what he’s doing, when he’s doing that. And I also appreciate that you said it, like it is this gift of anger, you know, this righteous indignation that this is not, okay, this is not how it needs to be. And I think anger does provide a lot of energy to get stuff moving to get stuff done. Yeah. And so maybe that’s what we need to really inspire today is for a wife out there, that’s not in some ways, not that she needs to, you know, lash out at her husband, but get angry enough at what the enemy has done to her husband and to her marriage, that she starts making steps in the direction of healing.
33:45
Yes.
33:47
You know, I, I appreciate it. Also, you know, in your story that your husband was seven, when he was exposed to this, you know, as a young woman, I was exposed to it when I was in middle school, so maybe 1314. And that started in addiction that took a long time to, to come out of, and, you know, even as a young woman in church, and, you know, with all of these desires for Jesus and holiness and stuff, it was so difficult. And the shame was so debilitating. And so I know that experience and you know, by God’s grace, it’s been many years since I’ve even had that temptation. But but it is something you know, it’s a huge temptation. For men. It’s a huge just the way they’re wired to be so visual, and it’s so natural that way, which is great in the right context, it’s a great, you know, it brings your marriage together and all this but, um, but yeah, you know, I wonder if you could even speak to that part of it. You know, I can imagine And, you know, wives, who, who know about the the pornography or, or they find out makes them very hesitant to have any kind of intimacy with their husband. But at the same time, you know, maybe they’re in the denial phase, and they’re, you know, trying to work it through or trying to, you know, entice their husband away from it. I don’t know, is there advice or other things you can kind of give in that regard?
35:29
Well, I think I just want to affirm that dealing with any issue in your marriage is a risk, to address an issue, to address an issue of any kind, comes with risk. And there is definitely there’s some real fear involved in addressing a problem. And then when you think about our sexuality, like, that’s something a lot of people don’t even talk about. And there may, you know, I just think, women, especially in sometimes women in the church, we’re not comfortable with our own sexuality. And so we have this part of us that we’re hesitating about. And then now we discover that our husband is embracing sexuality outside of the marriage. And it’s almost like, where we feel powerless, like I don’t even know my own sexuality, how am I going to deal with his? I think for for those women, you might even consider some of your own baggage, some of your own issues and how you think about sex. And I think I know, I bought into the lie that sex was all about men. And that’s probably why I did was able to cope and pretend with denial for so long, because I bought into that thought that sex is for men and sex is about men. And it’s not for me, and and so I was able to sort of shut that down and permit that in my home or rationalize it, I guess. So I would challenge that that’s a lie. That is not the truth. And that’s not God’s plan. So look, looking maybe at your own baggage, challenging some of the lies you believe, and then also holding on to the hope that there is freedom from sexual addiction. And that it’s something that your marriage can survive and come out on the other side of?
37:36
Yeah. Yeah. That’s awesome. Well, in the next part, it’s going to be our next episode coming out next week, you can hear the rest of Lynn story. I just want to underline sometimes anger gives us the energy and the motivation, that we need to make real changes. So I’m not sure where you are in your walk, or if this really spoke to you, but pornography really is is of the enemy. It’s just so debilitating in so many ways. And I believe God wants to free his people from this grip. So if you’re not affected by it personally, I know you can pray for others that are and that they would have the courage to come into the light and to work through this and to get healing for it. Come on back next Tuesday, we’re going to be talking about the rest of Linda’s story, how she worked through this and to continue to give hope to others that may be in the same situation and how she recovered and healed from it. God bless you. I love you. I’m praying for you and your marriage. And I’ll talk to you next Tuesday.
38:57
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word. If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion
When you got married, you really didn’t know who you were marrying. Maybe you knew some things and probably loved them. But as time passes you learned more and more. And as time passes some things change. Illnesses, disorders and disabilities sometimes become reality in marriage. How do you deal with these challenges together? That is our topic today. Our guest, Kim Olachea has weathered and helpful insights that I think will give you encouragement in this area.
If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!
Transcript
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose
0:18
Haye and welcome. I hope that you are having a good day. Thank you for joining me and listening into the conversation that’s planned for today. If you are listening to this in real time, I want to wish you a Merry Christmas as that’s coming up on Sunday. I hope that you gather close with your friends and family and remember what this celebration is about that Jesus came to this earth for you and for me. So God bless you. I’m excited about that. But for today’s show, I’ve got Kim Ola, Shea on from proverb, wise.com, and she is a wife of 37 years. She’s got five kids, she has lived this life and a long time in marriage. And I love her perspective. I love that she clearly has such a close walk with the Lord. And you know, something came up in their marriage just in the last couple of years that took her and her husband for surprise. And if you’ve been married for any length of time, you know that things come up in marriage that surprise you. You can’t know your spouse completely. And every day in every year you learn new things and sometimes they’re hard sometimes they’re difficult things to learn. I want to just encourage your heart today. I think Kim has a great perspective. And I think we can learn from her.
1:56
Hello there and welcome to let your marriage listener. I am excited that you’re joining me thank you for being here. I have got Kim Ola Shea on the line. Welcome Kim.
2:07
I there Bella and I am very glad to be with you today.
2:10
I am very glad you are here as well. Now Kim has a website called proverb wise.com And we’re going to be talking about that. And Kim. Would you be willing to just kind of introduce yourself a little bit about your family and what your day to day life looks like.
2:26
Okay, well, I am a pastor’s wife. We’ve been in pastoral ministry for close to 35 years we’ve been married for 37. I’m a mom of five. And we have seven grandchildren. Six boys. And finally a few months ago, a precious little girl named Charisse. That was God’s grace to us. Harris means Oh, I love that. So that’s a little bit about our family. Our day to day, incredibly busy. I am an entrepreneur, entrepreneur and business owner of online bookkeeping solutions. I do a little bit of speaking and writing. And I just started the proper wise ministry this past year and look forward to adding a new component for pastors wives in 2017. I’m really excited about that. And I work part time in our church office. My days are very busy. We’re helping out with kids at various times, but nobody except our one son is local. And so my husband is very busy and in multiple Ministries as well besides being a pastor, and so is doing some traveling and so yeah, we are just busy. This is a very busy season, which we thought might have been a time where we slow down a bit, but it seems that God has other plans.
3:51
Hmm, yeah, it sounds like you were doing Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah. Yes. So tell us a little bit about your and your husband’s personalities. What are they like?
4:03
Okay, can you hear me cuz I’m getting a little on it. I can Okay, fine. Yeah, good. All right. Well, absolute complete opposite personality. I am. I am very much an administrator, the spiritual gift of administration. And he is much he’s very abstract. And what is what is the word I’m thinking random and abstract. And I am very great and sequential, if you want. We did a DISC personality profile many years ago when we were younger in ministry. And Dr. Sandy Culkin was actually the instructor and he’s the founder of that organization, and came up with the the instrument and we were in a group in Atlanta of about 100 and something people and we all had to take this assessment on a Friday night and then the next day we got together in the Morning, it was the day we were learning how to use the instrument. And he came up to us, Andy Kaufman came up to us that morning, he says, I need to meet with the two of you at lunch. And so we met with, why would he want to talk to us? And he came in, he says, I hate to tell you guys this, but you guys first profile matches that we have ever seen. And we are very concerned that you’re never going to make it. And we want to with us, like every week for the rest of your life. No, that didn’t happen. And we didn’t stay in touch. I actually thought I really should contact him and let him know we’re still together at some point, but we’re completely complete opposites. Well,
5:47
that is too funny. Okay, well, you know, this podcast is really about inspiring and empowering wives to live in wholehearted intimacy with their spouse. And so I want to kind of just get that inspirational ball rolling and wonder if you could share a scripture or a quote that has meant a lot to you over the years, or even recently,
6:10
wow, I’m in relation to marriage, I’m gonna I wasn’t really the one I had chosen. But when you’re talking about it in relation to marriage, and doing the doing the ministry of Proverbs wise, you know, I have to go back to there so many scriptures on what it means to be a wife, and what it means to be in biblical marriage. And in Proverbs, we see the marriage picture over and over, and the verses about being an excellent wife, a crown to your husband, and he finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor of the Lord. And I think, through my life, and then, you know, obviously the Proverbs 31 woman that we all think about. It’s like, wow, how do you live up to that? And, and I want to be that crown to him, I want to be the kind of wife that is considered a good thing. And so so in a way that would be that would be one, some scripture that has really impacted my life and my marriage.
7:17
Yeah. Yeah, I think that so often, when we think about the wife that, you know, that ideal wife, where she’s traveling around and buying fields, and, you know, her husband, honors her, and she’s a woman of valor, and all these things. You know, it’s easy to be looking at the gap of where we are, and where we want to be. But I think that also inspires us and helps us to move forward and to see, you know, God wants all these things for us as wives to be a crown, to our husbands. And so, you know, I also kind of think that, you know, as we go through life, there’s different seasons, where different aspects of ourselves are more pronounced. And, and it Yeah, and we’re not all things all the time, but we are certain things at certain seasons. And so, so yeah, I, you know, I want to kind of talk about a difficult season and struggle in your marriage where, you know, we learn the most in the in the most difficult times. And so, I wonder if you could take us there to that story of a difficult season for your marriage.
8:28
Sure, yeah. We we do we want to live up to what God’s standard is for marriage? And sometimes it just seems so overwhelming, like, how do I ever do this out away? You know, I’ve been to so many women’s events, and, you know, they in teaching on on marriage, and what the wife is supposed to be in it. As a young wife, I was very insecure and all of that, but, um, and, and still very often I am, as well. But one of the times, then one of the most difficult things is something that, that just in the last five years or so, we have been working through. And when I, I always used to say to my husband, I think you have ADHD or something. I used to say this all the time. And then when I got into teaching, I was working on my Master’s and I was taking a course, and in students with learning disabilities, and when we got to the topic of ADHD, I’m like, it’s true. That’s really what he has. And he didn’t want to, he didn’t want to deal with it. At first, he just be like, you know, just kind of like, I don’t want to talk about this. But I really began to understand that yes, that is a major issue and frustration that we have had in our marriage over the years with we’re so busy with ministry, raising kids and all those things. You just really don’t. You don’t always have time to even process that we we started our family fairly quickly. We only been married less than two years when our first one came in then five kids over 12 years and it just, we just you know, it was like I just was so About the kids that I don’t think I picked up on some of the things I just really didn’t have time to process, it really didn’t have the educational background to understand it. But as as we thought about AI, it’s probably been close to five years ago, I found this article actually in the AARP magazine as we were reaching this age, and it was just a little short bulleted list of symptoms of adult ADHD, that if I said, Honey, you need to read this, he would have never looked at but I just kind of left it on the dining room table. And I’m like, Oh, would you look at this, me and he has this kind of interesting. And he calls me he’s like, I can’t believe this. Exactly describes me. So we went through the process of getting an official diagnosis, which took over a year of test and brain tests, and all of this, and the doctors kept saying, we don’t understand he has a PhD, how did he get a PhD. But But through that, we found that he really has it extremely bad. Wow, that’s will absolutely magnify the situation to a point where sometimes I feel like I’m dealing with everything by myself, because I am, because he forgets because he doesn’t think of it, or it gets distracted, and he goes off and does something else. And I’m kind of left holding everything. So that’s probably been one of the most difficult seasons, as we’ve worked through that process. Because not only do you have the process of, of learning of the diagnosis, then all of a sudden, it becomes Okay, we have to accept this. So it’s almost like you go through this grieving process, like you do with a child with disabilities, or like you do with other disappointments in life. And it’s not that we’re disappointed in each other. It’s just that all of a sudden, we realize we can’t fix this, it’s going to be something we struggle with. So we went through a period of about a lot of a lot of frustration, a lot of arguing a lot of what you need to deal with it now that you know about and a lot of you don’t understand, and sometimes using it as an excuse, and sometimes using it as a blame on both of our sides, you know, so that’s been a very, I talked to him about he knows I’m sharing this, I asked him because we’ve talked about maybe we need to come up with a seminar or something on this, because it’s really tough. It’s really, really tough. But we’re working on that. And, and God’s brought us through that. And it’s it’s now we’re communicating better, actually, I think because now I understand why he has responded over the years, certain ways. He understands why I’ve responded. So when you add in personality differences, and this disability, it really makes a lot of things clear. On some of the struggles we had through the through the years.
12:51
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I can resonate that with that so much in terms of the grieving that you find out that, you know, this is what the rest of your life looks like. And this is what, how it’s going to be. And you know, sometimes, even though there’s, you know, there’s always this, you know, without knowing I’m sure you had so many difficulties, because you didn’t know about this, right. So you probably just, you know, went through life with with so much heartache, because you were like, well, why isn’t he helping? Man? I can only imagine five kids where he’s not support. Yeah, my goodness. Yeah. And
13:30
he and he is, the thing is, there was always the struggle of, you know, I know he loves me dearly. And his kids adore their dad, they me now as adults mean they call Dad whenever they have a, you know, anything that they need counsel on. But the day today, everyday things were hard. For example, one, hey, we had decided to homeschool this one year, I was not really all for and he’s like, Oh, I’ll help you. This is going to be great. Well, the kids and I we have a family. Like it’s like we all laugh every time because his helping we had, you know five kids that were like all different ages. So he says, Well, I’ll do a science lesson because he taught science one year. And so he decides he’s going to teach them on sound waves. So he takes him out to the creek and he’s you know, throws a rock and showing them how the water goes. And that’s how the sound waves go. And so it’s like, that’s the only day all year he helped me on that one. Now we laugh they’re like, Yeah, do you remember when dad taught us the one day? The whole year you’ve got out of it. Back to school the next year?
14:40
Yeah, right. I can only imagine. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I’m one of five kids to actually and my mom homeschooled us for a couple years up until we could read actually and and it was there. Yeah, my dad was not part of the the homeschooling at all so? And I, I don’t think it was add, but I think it was other things but yeah, that’s what it is so so, you know, when you found out or, you know, going through these, you know, I guess that was about 3032 years of marriage without knowing about this diagnosis. I mean, yeah, what was what were the biggest challenges that you face throughout that?
15:26
Wow. Um, well, I remember when he, you know, when he came to understand that after reading that list, we were getting ready for our daughter youngest daughter’s wedding was only that we decided actually to wait on the going to the doctor until after the wedding because it was just, you know, not at time where we really could focus on that. But I remember into I don’t know, ACM or something looking for stuff for the wedding. And he went to Barnes and Nobles, because he loves books. So he’s over there. And he calls me while I’m in the store. And he’s like, sobbing. He’s like, I am so sorry. Because I did. He goes, I didn’t know I was doing this to you. And he had picked up a book that was written by the wife of a man who had a severe case of ADHD. And what she and she, they’ve been married, she’s actually considered an expert. I did not bring that information. So I don’t remember the name of the book. But, but working through that grieving, and then working through it, you know, then he would get he would get angry, because it’s like, why am I like this? Why did I let this happen? And it’d be a pastor, and so you’re dealing with his kind of on your own. And I think working through that, that process of acceptance, and him being able to be transparent about that, you know, like, even with his board, like, how do you tell them that’s why sometimes you forget real important stuff. I try to stay on topic, but I’m always feel like I’m juggling stuff. But now I understand better that he can’t. It’s not that he’s it’s not that he’s being negligent or lazy. He can’t. And so that’s been a challenge of medications, finding something that will work that doesn’t have side effects that affected his preaching, that was very distressing. Because he found, he found a medication that was incredible. I could see, like, it was huge. It was like day and night, in within an hour the first time he took the dose. And then he gets up to preach. And it gave him dry mouth so bad that he literally could not do public speaking and take his medication. And that was it was a huge frustration. And because we really haven’t found anything, we’ve tried natural stuff, and some of it helps we tried gluten free. And that seems to help on some level. But it’s like nothing really does what that one medication did. And so now there’s just this frustration, we’re going to we’re still in process, we’re going back, he’s got a he’s got high blood pressure as well. So that’s been an issue because they don’t want to give him the kinds of medications you have to take for ADHD, unless his blood pressure is really under control. So we’ve had to deal with that. So we’re back in the let’s try it again. And we can do and then there’s costs, it’s huge, expensive. The diagnosis, the medications, everything’s very expensive. And you have insurance issues. I mean, there’s just like this whole realm of things to deal with. And, and yet, yet God’s using it. And it’s it’s all okay. Yeah. But we’ve had to work through a lot of those kinds of things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, nothing’s gonna fix it. It’s still something we have to manage, but never fix.
18:49
We don’t know why there’s an element of suffering. Right, in this life, you know, there just is there’s, there just is, and, and, you know, it’s interesting, you know, as, as listeners are in every season of marriage, whether they’re newlyweds or engaged, and thinking, you know, getting married or, or they’ve been married for years or whatever. We don’t know what we’re getting into when we say I do. I mean, we don’t know, you didn’t know, you didn’t know what was gonna happen
19:19
and actually know and when we actually when we got married, I went into this MIT, we were very young. I was not quite 19. And he was not quite 23. I always say no children to my kids. That’s just not mean you get married when you’re my age. You’re that young. It was a little different era of time. And I had graduated from high school early so I had two years of college by this time and living away from home. So it was a little bit different. But But anyway, I went into this marriage, he had been diagnosed with a kidney disease, and they didn’t expect his kidneys to last two years.
19:56
Oh my gosh,
19:57
and wow, probably part of the reason And I went into like that is I was very young. And But yet God was so good and has so blessed and doctors to this day shake their head and we don’t we don’t understand why they your kidneys never got worse. Oh my god they did. And he either doesn’t have it or it’s in remission or whatever and other than blood pressure. That’s not even. That’s not even in there. But we, but yeah, when we marry some really understand what it could mean to our lives. Yeah. But you know, it’s when we go into it with with the Lord. He has plans and and he uses all those things.
20:34
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean it’s just amazing. So you said your husband has a PhD? Yes, he does. Yes, yes. And he’s done this work of ADD. I mean, he’s lived with ADD for his whole life,
20:49
his whole life. Yeah, there wasn’t even such a thing. I mean, they didn’t even have a name for it. When he was growing up. He just remembers that he would run into stuff and break stuff a lot. And he just remembers his mom going all the time, just shaking her head and saying, oh, Joe. So, you know, they dealt with it. He he attributes a lot of his success in school and everything, because his dad was a pastor, and everything was, you know, there was there were there was discipline, and expectations. And his parents are very gentle, loving, gracious people. I love them dearly. But, but there was a lot less. I think that one of the things that’s magnified, the ATD is particularly as we’ve gotten older is the increase in the use of technology. I mean, computers, cell phones, everything that seems to make it worse. Yeah, so I think that on some level, some of the the other the way we used to live in our culture, and the way we live now has really magnified that issue. But a lot of it, yeah, he got his PhD actually. And I’m trying to remember the year I, we both we’d go back and forth, we share one he got his master’s, then he got his PhD, and I got my master’s, we went back and forth. In that, that many years, maybe 10. Okay. Um, he got his PhD. So I mean, I live with him through those years. And it was really difficult. And he was very focused. He was one of the people that has ADHD that hyper focuses. And so his hyper focus was his schoolwork. And so really, that was it. That was what he did. And that’s, you know, that, but, but that’s how he did it, he would not have been able to do that. If I hadn’t been covering of other things. Wow.
22:43
Yeah, absolutely. But we
22:45
did it. I mean, we’re through it. Right.
22:49
Well, what do you think I mean, it, you know, just thinking about those that are listening, that are like, Yes, I get this whole married to a person with disabilities. I mean, what would you kind of tell her who’s listening? What kind of advice would you give, and someone who’s in the throes of figuring this thing out?
23:09
Um, well, I was praying, like, Lord, give me something to say, because I don’t have answers. The only thing I can say is that it takes an incredible amount of patience, which I don’t always have. But, but I think it takes a constant, constant state of prayer, like just asking God for grace for that day, for that moment. It’s really no different than when you have a child with a disability that requires care. And you have to step in, we’re all weak in some way. We all have things that that are issues in our life, and the Lord can help us through all of those things. So accepting, they’re recognizing, I think, with things like ADHD and other things that are sort of hidden and not necessarily something everybody else might even recognize is happening. But we have to accept that that it is a disability, it is something that you have to work through. And that that person is not the disability. It’s just something it is their thing that they have to deal with. But that’s not all of them. And with my husband, I think what I hung on to and I knew about him is that he is the most godly person I know. I’ve watched his life. He is he spends time with the Lord every day he prays he has been an incredible dad, he loves his kids, he loves me. And we’re, you know, us and ministry and God are his life. And he’s been faithful to that since the day we were married. And so I know who he is. And then what he has is this other this disability, that all sometimes impacts how he feels It impacts him not following through on things. It’s not because he means to not follow through, is just because of the situation. And so if I can help him in that way, or if I can cover for him in that way, support him in that way. It’s just what I have to do. I mean, and I’m not gonna say it’s easy, because some days, it is incredibly frustrating. And you feel like quitting, and you feel like saying, this is just insane. Why is this happening? You know, but you, but it’s not ever going to be 5050. It’s going to always be 100 100, he gives 100%. But he just can’t do it in the ways that sometimes I feel like I need. So I have to give 100% I have to just do what I have to do. He has to he does what he has to do. And and we just need to respect and honor one another because that’s, that’s the person God gave us, man. And we need to love them as Jesus loved us. It’s no different than we’re supposed to love others in the world. We just need to respect that person. So it’s a struggle. But I think we can be really blessed. And God can use that disability to impact the lives of other people. Because we can relate and we can, we can sympathize with them. You know, when God says, We comfort others with the comfort He gives us. And so he allows that so that we have a better understanding of other people. And we can minister in ways that we couldn’t have ministered. Had we not gone through that ourselves.
26:38
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that you said that’s the person God gave us. And we did love them as Jesus loves us. You know, it disabilities in all difficulties in all whatever it is. I love also you said, you know, you know who he is. And this ADD is what he has. And those are two different things. Definitely. Yeah, yeah. I love that. And the other thing, you know, again, with with my disability this summer has been, you know, grace for that day has been huge for me. I mean, it’s just been waking up every morning and just being like, God, I need your grace for just today. Just just right now, just today. Yeah, can you can you talk about that a little bit more? I mean, how do we how do we do that? How do we live with that? That I guess the the realization that God gives us grace for right now.
27:45
Well, my my, the verse that has been on my heart this whole year. As we we’ve gone, we’re going through some transitions and in our life and our ministry, some real struggles in ministry. And some some really difficult things with our kids. Our daughter’s was diagnosed with thyroid cancer last year. And she’s got three little ones and just some of those kinds of things that we’re going through with on a personal level. And the verse that just, I don’t know, it pops into my head all the time actually wrote it down for my husband this morning, fixing your eyes on Jesus, just that part of that verse from Hebrews. Because if we don’t look at life, through Christ, then we’re going to get really pulled down. And we’re going to face like, we were going to suffer, we’re going to face battles, Jesus never said it was gonna be easy. Yeah, I’m in this life. But but this isn’t, this isn’t the end of all things. This is only we’re just passing through this life. This is this is the transition. And we need to if when our eyes are really on Christ, every minute, anytime that we turn, and we look at Christ, we’re not gonna, everything else is gonna kind of down. And it’s not going to seem so huge, because he’s going to be the one we’re focused on. And I think that’s really what the grace part is about. He’s going to give us grace. For that day, he’s going to give us sufficient grace. He’s going to give us abundant grace, for whatever we face on any given day, but he’s not going to give it to us until we need it. So when we wake up in the morning, you know, some days, we don’t really think that much about it, but other days are really, really hard. And if we don’t stay focused on Christ, we don’t stay in his word. And really, really stay in constant communication with him. We’re going to really fall apart real fast. So I think it’s only the only way we’re going to experience that grace is to keep our eyes on Him and sometimes we’re going to look away because because we’re human, the quicker we turn back everything else in the perspective that he would have us look at our circumstances.
30:12
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. We’re gonna look away because we’re human. But the quicker we turn back, that’s that’s the key is to turn back to turn back to turn back over and over and over and over again. That’s right. Like you said, not to get downtrodden not to get downcast. But these struggles are temporary, we are just passing through. I just love that. So true. Well, I believe that some of you listening know all too well, what it’s like to have a spouse that has disabilities, or you yourself has a disability. And obviously, it affects your marriage. I just believe that God wants you to know that one, you’re not alone. And this world, I mean, that’s, that’s what God says, you know, in His Word, it says, In this world, you will have trouble but take heart, I have overcome the world. You know, after this life is over. It’s going to matter the way you treated your spouse, the way your attitude was towards them, the way you treated yourself during that time. I mean, it matters ultimately, in eternity, I really do believe that God puts us together with a spouse on purpose and the sufferings that we have our sufferings that matter. It’s not an accident. It’s not because life is unfair, or God wants to punish you or whatever, that there’s a purpose in it. You know that we’re joining in Christ’s sufferings for some reason. There’s a purpose in it. And I so I just want to encourage you and I will be talking to you next Tuesday, for the rest of Kim’s interview. There’s a lot of really good stuff in there. So I hope that you’ll join me again. God bless you. I love you praying for you, your marriage and your walk with Christ. Talk to you soon. Bye bye.
32:07
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion
Bethany had been married and things were going along fine, but she didn’t feel very connected to her husband on a deep level. She planned to go on a weekend retreat and she was surprised to find out all that she learned. She found out that she and her husband communicate differently. For example, she found out that husbands’ preferred method of communication is sex, while that is not wives’ first preferred method of communication. This and other generally true understandings gave her the insights she needed to bring her intimacy to a greater level in all areas of her relationship.
Find out more about Bethany at she and her husband’s website called engagedmarriage.com
Scripture:
Jeremiah 29:11 “For I know well the plans I have in mind for you—oracle of the LORD—plans for your welfare and not for woe, so as to give you a future of hope.”
If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!
Transcript
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose
0:18
Haye, and welcome. Thank you for joining me if this is your first time listening to the podcast, I want to say thank you for being here, just for spending some time thinking about marriage and thinking about how another person does it is valuable. And, you know, it’s so easy to see, you know, marriages that have fallen apart in the public space. Right. But what about the marriages that have stayed strong? What about the marriages that have dug deep and kept going, and that’s what this this podcast is about is bringing you their stories so that you can hear from firsthand why and how they’ve stayed together. And that you can do it too. So I hope that you’re inspired today and encouraged to go deeper with your marriage go deeper with your connection and your communication. That’s what we’re talking about today with Bethany riechmann. And I hope that you are inspired by the end of this conversation, I think you will be because we are talking about how to get closer together as a couple and how that affects and can impact your intimacy. So let’s go ahead and dive in. Hello, and welcome to let your marriage listener I am really excited to have you and I am excited to have Bethany riechmann on welcome Bethany.
1:50
Thank you.
1:51
I am so happy to have you, Bethany and her husband. Do a website called engaged marriage.com. And Bethany and I have it’s kind of been a long time coming. For her Conversations. I’m really excited to finally dive in. But Bethany, just to kind of start out. Would you mind introducing yourself and a little bit about your family and what your day to day life kind of looks like? Sure.
2:16
So I Bethany, and I’m married to my husband, Dustin, and we’ve been married for about 15 years. And we have three kiddos ages 11, nine and six and they keep us pretty busy. I used to be a special education teacher and then when God gave us a very our littlest one, I decided that maybe my calling was to stay home for a while. And so I’ve been doing that for about six years. And then just recently I’ve kind of dove headfirst into the substitute teaching arena. So I’m gonna see how that new road takes me.
2:49
Very nice. Yes, very nice. And how old are your kids again?
2:53
They’re 11 nine and six. Yes.
2:56
Okay. So and I hear you have Halloween parties going on today. So
3:01
let me do this seems to be the Halloween that’s never gonna end around here. So yeah, they have the parties this today. And then we have of course trigger trading this weekend and a parade on Monday. Oh, yeah.
3:11
lots lots going on. Very nice. Okay. Well, tell us a little bit about you and your husband’s personalities, if
3:18
you would? Sure. Well, I am much more of the behind the scenes kind of data, no laid back person, okay. And my husband, Dustin is definitely the go getter. And he has lots of ideas. And so I am the supportive one in the making those ideas happen. And he would also say that I’m the reality checker whenever his ideas get a little big.
3:45
Yeah, so Okay, so you so does that mean, you don’t like the spotlight
3:50
all that much or No, not at all?
3:54
Well, thank you for being with us today. This is big deal.
3:57
Yeah, you’re welcome. Well, and I mean, I don’t say that I don’t want to talk to people, but I’m just not as look at me or comfortable at that. But I still feel very strongly about the things that we talk about. And you know, I’m happy to share that with others.
4:11
Yeah, I love that. Sometimes. The the purpose behind what we’re doing kind of propels us forward, even if we don’t feel naturally inclined to do things.
4:21
Is that Absolutely, yes. Yes. Awesome.
4:24
Well, you know, this podcast is all about inspiring and empowering marriages. And I wonder if you would kind of start our conversation off with a scripture that may have meant a lot to you over the years or even recently.
4:37
Sure I have one that I think it is something that’s important to me to remind myself of constantly no matter where I am, you know, in my season in my life or whatever, but it comes from Jeremiah chapter 29 Verse 11, for I know well the plans I have in mind for you plans for your welfare and not for Whoa, so as to give you a future of hope. And I think that’s a really good one, you know, whether you’re, you know, in the throes of small children, or if you’re newlyweds or if you are, you know, empty nesters, I think that applies to all areas of life, you know, just to remind ourselves that we aren’t here to live for us, you know, we’re here to live for Him, and how can we do that through our families? So that’s something that’s super important for me.
5:24
And I love that. That translation, what translation is that?
5:28
That comes from the our Catholic Bible? So that’s just the one that I found.
5:33
I love it. Could you repeat the I just love the phrasing? Could you say it one more time?
5:37
Sure. It’s for I know, well, the plans I have in mind for you plans for your welfare and not for Whoa, so as to give you a future of hope.
5:46
That’s beautiful. That is so beautiful. I love that. Well, yes, I mean, you know, that’s, that’s the God that we serve, he knows well, the plans he has for us. And, you know, in the midst of some of the most difficult times in our lives, it’s hard to see that it’s hard to remember that athletes, you know, and that’s really what I want to kind of dive into a little bit is, you know, a difficult season. Often, that’s where we learn the most, and God teaches us the most through it. So I’m interested, yeah, if you could kind of share a difficult season of your marriage and kind of take us to that spot.
6:26
Sure. You know, I talked about how I used to be a special education teacher. And, you know, we had at the time, two kiddos, and I was working full time, and also taking classes in masters classes to get my Master’s in special ed. And, you know, Dustin was working his job. And, you know, we just kind of seem to be doing that whole, we’re living together, you know, kind of thing, but we weren’t really connecting on a deep level. And so we, we attended a marriage retreat, actually, because at this point, we were already talking to couples in our church about natural family planning, which is something that we’re really big on. And so we went to this retreat, thinking we were going to, you know, learn how to give this retreat and help others. But you know, God works in his way. And as a matter of fact, it really worked on us. And we reaped so many benefits from going to this retreat, where we talked a lot about, you know, our dream marriage. And in that lesson, I spoke about things that we had never talked about before, like how, you know, my I, my ideal marriage would include me being able to stay home with the kids, and he had no idea. And I think that, you know, obviously God had his plan for us. And when Avery came along, not too long after that retreat, you know, it was kind of like a wake up moment where I was like, wow, you know, God gave us another, you know, little treasure. And now what am I going to do with that? So, you know, through that retreat, we really learned how to communicate better. And especially, we came away with the whole 15 minutes a day, which is kind of what our ministry online is based on is how, you know, just 15 minutes every day talking to your spouse, uninterrupted can make such a huge difference. So, also, you know, just really ramping up our prayer life and knowing that, you know, speaking to God and getting to know God more is going to help our marriage as well. So yeah, I mean, there were, I don’t know, that I’ve ever, you know, before that had ever understood, being called to do something, you know, like, called to have a certain kind of position or whatever. But, you know, after having been at that retreat, I certainly after, you know, finding out we were expecting our third child really felt called to, you know, stay home.
8:44
Wow, wow. Well, can I go even before you went on this retreat? Right, what were what were things kind of like, between the two of you. So you said, you’re super busy. Sounds like you had you had two kids. You were in school? You were also working, your husband was working? Yeah. Yeah. What I mean, what was it kind of like, between the two of you?
9:05
I, you know, I think that we were, we weren’t we did not have a bad marriage. I think we just had an okay, marriage, you know, and it was not something that we were at a really working on, we kind of were at this point where we’re like, Okay, well, you know, everything’s going great. You know, it’s just, you know, this is the way we’re living. We have small kids. And, you know, I don’t think that we realized that it could be different, you know, that we could have a deeper marriage and some a relationship that was, you know, growing rather than just staying stagnant.
9:36
Hmm. Was it something that you noticed before the retreat? I mean, had you
9:40
you know, it wasn’t I think it was one of those things that when we got there, and after we started talking, then we realized, oh, wow, you know, we, we were living the life and everything was going great, but it could be so much better. And that’s kind of I think what the retreat did for us was to open our eyes to what our marriage could be and probably what God wants it To be, you know, not just what, you know, we were the reality that we were living.
10:05
So when you say like what God wants it to be what what would you kind of describe that as what I mean? How did your your marriage kind of change into what God wanted it to be?
10:15
Yeah, I think that we really, through our communication, you know, have found ways to become closer and, you know, I tend to, I think just the communication itself made such a huge difference, I tend to hold things in and, you know, I’m really passive. And so I don’t like to, you know, disagree or, you know, be uncomfortable. And I think that this retreat, you know, kind of put you out there and just let you experience and express your desires to your spouse and let them know what what they’re feeling without, you know, any kind of, you know, negativity or anything like that with it. So I think we just really learn how to open up to each other in a way that, you know, God really wants marriage to be and, you know, and through, actually, through this retreat to talk a lot about masculinity and femininity, and how those roles within a marriage are so very important. And understanding how men tend to think and how women are sort of the opposite. You know, how we can learn to understand each other in a better way?
11:22
Wow, so Okay, so what do you mean, in terms of differences? Like, what are some things that kind of were underlying that? You know, once they brought to the surface? Yeah,
11:32
wow, well, really, in the intimacy category, that was one of the big things. So, you know, as a woman, I like to feel close to my husband by talking, you know, I’m a talker, and I want to, I want to tell them about my day, and I want him to listen to me, I don’t necessarily need him to talk back, I just wanted to, you know, kind of be a listening ear. And, you know, and by talking to him and experiencing, you know, my time with him, that makes me feel close and want to be intimate. The opposite, I think is true for a lot of men, where, you know, they want to feel close to us physically, before, they want to open up emotionally. And so, and that’s very true for our relationship. And so that was something that I didn’t really recognize before our retreat weekend, but something I am very aware of now.
12:18
Hmm. So then what’s the tactic is the tactic to be physical, and then have the have the emotional piece there is that kind of well, and
12:31
I think that the, the goal behind that is for us to be aware of both so that, you know, if he knows that, you know, he wants to feel close to me, physically, then he also needs to get close to me emotionally, he needs to talk to me and not just expect that, you know, when the kids are in bed, it’s going to be, you know, time for us to be together, you know, and so, because that’s not, that’s not my preferred, you know, way of doing things. And so I think that him realizing that and me knowing, you know, that he wants to be with me, and so opening up myself to, to those conversations, you know, to, to just open those both, both ways of communicating, you know, and being aware of that, but at the same time, you know, we talked about, at the retreat, we talked about how men have to be aware that, you know, women need to, you know, have that emotional connection first, and that they can’t just expect, you know, women to follow themselves to be with, you know, so yeah, I mean, there was a lot of respect built into this too, you know, with learning how to communicate both ways.
13:31
I love that. So okay, so that’s very cool. So, I like that you said, thinking through what your husband wants, he wants the physical connection, and that opens him up to be more emotionally connected, right. And the wife generally wants to be the emotional connection, the communication connection, before she wants that physical connection. So I like that you said, at least just having that underlying understanding helps the both of you work together and kind of be like, Okay, so the husband wants to go and listen to his wife. Right. And that’ll more than likely move closer to physical intimacy. Well, there’s not gonna hurt right? Yeah, no, that’s true. That’s true. I, you know, I think sometimes as wives we get into this place where we’re like, you know, he’ll,
14:22
he’ll make a move and you’re like, wait a second, I just, I just walked in the door, right? Or, you know, I’m
14:28
barely connected to you in any way. How do you think I’m just gonna drop my pants? Right.
14:36
You know, and I think that we sometimes still slide into those bad habits, you know, if you want to call them that, but but, you know, understanding that there’s a better way and then realizing that we can, you know, get on the right path again, just like I said, our honestly our sex life now is a zillion times better than it was before. You know, we didn’t have a horrible sex life, but just knowing that, you know, I trust him, you know, to be open with me at the right time. And, you know, vice versa. So I think that, yeah, there, it was just it was, you know, life changing for us.
15:09
Really, really, really? Do you mind going into that a little bit of of like, what, what changes happened? Or why do you think things are better? Yeah, I
15:17
think, you know, I always felt like, you know, I felt like, the intimacy part was something that, you know, he wanted all the time, and I did not, and, or not as much as him, I guess, I should say, and I think that after this retreat, and, and just, you know, talking about our desires for our family, and our marriage, and I think just the whole thing made us a closer team. And we had the same goals, you know, like, I don’t want him to not be with me, and you know, if his preferred mode of communication and loving me is physical, I have to understand that that would be like him, you know, if my preferred method of communication is talking verbally, and then me wanting to talk to him, and him saying, Oh, I don’t want to talk to you right now, that would be really hurtful, you know, and so I think just opening our eyes to those differences in us, and the beauty of that God made us that way, you know, God is forcing me to open up to Dustin and vice versa, he needs to listen to me, it can’t just be, you know, all the physical part too. So, you know, just, but like I said, again, you know, it makes it sound like you have to just give up, you know, the wife just has to submit to the husband all the time. And that’s not the case. You know, God also asks us, you know, to trust our husbands, because, you know, our husbands are supposed to love us, like Christ loved his church, and if Christ died for his church, then husbands should be willing to, you know, sacrifice for their wives as well. And so that was also a really powerful message that was given that weekend.
16:50
I love that. So. So I love that you said the preferred method of communication being sex for your husband. Right? I, you know, I think that we don’t always think about that as communication.
17:04
Right? Yeah. Right. And that was true, too. And, you know, we shouldn’t intimacy and sex shouldn’t be something that’s think thought of as wrong or bad, it should be wonderful. God gave us this gift, you know, a husband and wife can’t get any closer than that, you know. So we need to look at that, as you know, one of the best experiences that we can have on this earth, you know, and we look at it as a renewal of our wedding vows every single time, you know, God is part of our marriage. And, you know, when we’re able to connect in that gift that God gave us, that is something very special.
17:36
renewal of our wedding vows every time. Yeah, I love that. I mean, it’s true. It’s it’s, this is me, this is you, this is the only thing that the two of us, I mean, this is we’re the only two that are, you know, going into this experience together it is it’s just like that renewal of your vow to each other. I think that’s a really good way of looking at it. What about what would you tell the wife that’s saying, Well, you know, my husband really doesn’t understand my communication style. And so I feel, you know, hampered by, you know, having to always meet his communication style all the time.
18:14
Right. And I can see that happening, too. But I think that the important part of this kind of equation is that there has to be communication outside of the bedroom before that can take place in the bedroom. You know, I think that, that foreplay, so to speak, needs to start all day long. You know, I mean, you can’t, you know, like you said, sometimes, husbands can be known for coming in the door, and just, you know, wanting to be close or whatever. But, you know, it doesn’t take much for a husband to text his wife throughout the day and just say, I’ve been thinking about you, or I can’t wait to hang out with you tonight. Or, you know, and it doesn’t have to be anything sexual, just knowing that even though your spouse is away from you, they’re still thinking about you, you know, it’s not like they walk out the door, you walk out the door to whatever job you’re going to that you know, that you don’t ever think about them, you know, I think it’s important to let them know that you’re on their mind, because everyone likes to be, you know, loved and thought of, and for me, at least, I like to have those, you know, whether it’s an email or just inviting text or anything, just to, to let him know that that I’m on his mind. Yeah,
19:19
yeah. Well, okay, so So when this when this conference happened, and, and, you know, it was all these wonderful things about about masculinity and femininity and intimacy. You also mentioned that it was a lot about communication and how your communication level became deeper, and I’m interested in how that happened.
19:44
But I think it was just like I said, we got to know each other on a whole new level, and that’s saying something because that’s when I started dating when I was 14. So we’ve been together for over 20 years, and, you know, so we’ve really grown together and for me to say that You know, just the things that we learned about each other that weekend really made us just even closer, you know, and that, that the, what society expects us to do, and what marriage is to society doesn’t have to be what God wants marriage to be, you know, like, we I just think we found a whole new holy meaning to our marriage, and what good it can do.
20:25
So was that when engaged marriage was kind of birthed,
20:29
actually, I was Yes, from that conference, we left there. And we’re renewed in our excitement of sharing our story of NFP and, you know, helping other couples and we this conference that we went to, we actually ended up helping to give it a few times in some of the parishes around our area. But, you know, having three kids can make that somewhat difficult. So, but we still practice the things that we learned there, you know, we still try to have that same kind of strong communication. And I’m not saying that we’re perfect, because we’re not, but you know, we are mindful of when things you know, when I start to get cranky, or, you know, if he starts to feel like he’s being shut out, then we can have a real conversation about that.
21:12
So were there certain questions that you asked each other? Or what was it like, substantively, that made you communicate on this retreat?
21:21
Yeah, I think we, they had speakers who kind of gave their testimony of things that had happened in their marriages, and how, you know, God had changed them through these events. And then we broke apart into just, you know, a couples, and then we were to journal an answer to a question that they might have given, and then read it to our spouse without them commenting. So they just had to listen to what our, you know, journal entry was, but you know, I mean, it ranged from Dream marriage to learning how to affirm your spouse, you know, giving compliments and receiving those, you know, gratefully, you know, and so it was just a really special thing. And they gave us a lot of time to, you know, listen to some wisdom that was given from married couples, you know, who had also received this retreat before, but then also for us to, you know, have couple times and, you know, talk about that within our own marriages, because not everybody’s marriages the same. So, you know, what their dreams and desires are for one couple are not what it would be for someone else.
22:23
So how did you? So when you think about dreams and desires for your marriage, I mean, what kind of insights? Can you give a wife that’s listening? And is like, yeah, I’ve never had that conversation with my husband, what I mean, what should she do?
22:38
Okay, so funny that you should mention that now. But you know, when, when we talked about having gone to the retreat, and then starting the website, Desson also wrote a book, that’s called the 15 Minute marriage makeover that kind of addresses all of those things like how, you know, it’s like, a month long, kind of program, not really programming, and it’s just so we can follow it. And one of the things is that you commit to 15 minutes a day. And you know, you’d be surprised you think, Well, I live with this person, how is it that I, you know, I talk to them all the time? Yeah, but do we really talk about our goals and our dreams and you know, a vacation we want to take, or what do we want to do when we retire or, you know, just anything, so, it’s just a good idea to, you know, you can have, you know, a list of things that you’re going to talk about, but yeah, those 15 minutes a day really make a difference. Even even tackling some of those big items, like, you know, the wife desiring to stay home, or vice versa, the the wife desiring to go back to work, and you know, what kinds of things can you know, the couple talk about that, that could make those dreams happen, you know, make it a reality?
23:45
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, okay, so 15 minutes. Why? Why 15?
23:53
Because it seems like a really manageable amount of time. You know, I mean, we think we live these crazy, busy lives. And, you know, you might think, well, 15 minutes isn’t enough, and maybe it’s not, but if you, if you commit to those 15 minutes every day, then it can be great. And I’m talking 15 minutes of uninterrupted time, like no TV, no cell phone, you know, so that you’re not distracted. And, you know, you’d be amazed how difficult that is to, you know, to sit together with your spouse, and just, it seems kind of awkward at first, you know, because you’re like, Well, I with this person all the time. Why is it that I have to, you know, focus on them to talk to them, but it’s true, it’s you need to give each other you know, your full attention so that you can say some big things that you might have on your hearts and things that you know, you’re concerned about or things you know, but if there’s no concerns, you could also talk about, you know, memories that you have to remember that time that we’ve been on that vacation and you know, that great dinner we had and then afterwards, you know, I mean you could reminisce too and even that for especially for you know, people who love that communication to feel closer. That’s a great time to spend together. Now, some people are evening people and they like those 15 minutes at night when the kids are in bed, or maybe you’re a morning person, and maybe you guys set your alarm for, you know, 15 minutes earlier than normal just to get up and have coffee and talk to each other, you know, so it’s just kind of making time for each other that we don’t necessarily realize we’re missing out on.
25:17
Yeah, I love that. And so, this has led to greater intimacy, greater physical intimacy, for sure.
25:22
Yeah. I mean, it’s just, I feel more like, I feel less like a thing and more like a person that he loves. You know, I think that I was feeling like, I was just kind of there for his pleasure. And that was not, and that was never his intention. Please don’t misunderstand that. That was all on, you know, me feeling like, you know, I wasn’t connecting with him, which was right, by our own faults, you know, we are and I think that’s too true that we don’t, we’re not always taught how to communicate with each other like that, you know, even when some churches require, you know, pre marriage kind of counseling stuff. I think communication is the number one thing because communication can lead to, you know, openness in intimacy, and finances and all the things that people tend to fight about, you know, so if you’ve always got that open communication, I think there’s less opportunity for, you know, resentment and things like that to happen. Yeah,
26:21
I love that. Well, I hope that you are inspired and encouraged to communicate to connect. On our next episode coming out next Tuesday, you’re going to hear the rest of Bethany’s story and what she’s learned in her marriage and how to connect on a deeper level. So, join us again next Tuesday. I look forward to talking to you then God bless you and praying for you and your marriage. Bye bye.
26:51
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion
Sherry had every reason to think her marriage was over. She found out her husband was cheating on her and asked him to move out. He moved in with his girlfriend. She found solace and hope in her newfound faith and Christian family. It was not an easy road, but what God has brought this couple through is astounding.
Be awed by what God did through their marriage and what hope she has to share with you. She talks specifically why submitting and relinquishing control is so hard for women. And why God asks us to do it.
Scriptures/Quotes:
Proverbs 31:25 “She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come.”
1 Peter 3 Amplified “In the same way, you wives, be [a]submissive to your own husbands [subordinate, not as inferior, but out of respect for the responsibilities entrusted to husbands and their accountability to God, and so partnering with them] so that even if some do not obey the word [of God], they may be won over [to Christ] without discussion by the godly lives of their wives, 2 when they see your modest and respectful behavior [together with your devotion and appreciation—love your husband, encourage him, and enjoy him as a blessing from God].3 Your adornment must not be merely external—with interweaving and elaborate knotting of the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or [being superficially preoccupied with] dressing in expensive clothes;4 but let it be [the inner beauty of] the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality and unfading charm of a gentle and peaceful spirit, [one that is calm and self-controlled, not overanxious, but serene and spiritually mature] which is very precious in the sight of God.5 For in this way in former times the holy women, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands and adapting themselves to them;6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham [following him and having regard for him as head of their house], calling him [b]lord. And you have become her daughters if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear [that is, being respectful toward your husband but not giving in to intimidation, nor allowing yourself to be led into sin, nor to be harmed].”
2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here!”
If you’d like to come alongside Sherry & her husband in their journey with Zoweh, they’re in the midst of raising our support as missionaries, you can do so here.
TRanscript
Transcript
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.
0:18
I have got to say, if you have listened to this show for a while, this is so timely. I just interviewed Sherry Jennings. And man, what she has to say is so right on the money for what God is teaching me, and the things I’ve shared with you, even on the last solo show, about how to get him to do what you want, I would love for you to go back and listen to that to kind of prep you for this show. But today, we have an amazing story of a woman who went through the fire. I mean, just honestly, I didn’t mention this on the show. But it reminds me of one of the most devastating experiences of my life, my parents divorce, it reminds me almost explicitly the details that are involved. Gosh, this show could change people’s hearts and lives and us as a wife, you as a wife can change what’s going on in your marriage. It’s just anyway, it’s just exactly what God needed us to hear. So if you want to understand who you are as a wife, and what your your mission is, how you can change and transform the marriage from the depths of despair and darkness into what God wants and becoming the husband that God wants him to become. This is the episode for you. So let’s dive in.
2:01
Hello, and welcome delight your marriage listener, thank you so much for joining me. I have a wonderful guest on Sherry Jennings with her website intentionally yours.org. Welcome, Sherry, thank you for being here.
2:14
Thank you, Bella, I’m so excited to share with you.
2:17
I’m excited to have you and I know you and I went back and forth a little bit to try to get this finally locked in. So I’m so glad we found a spot to do this. But let’s go ahead if you don’t mind. Could you share a little bit about yourself, your family your day to day life?
2:36
Let’s see. First and foremost, I guess it’s important to know that I am just a beloved daughter of God first, and I am the wife of Scott. We’ve been married since 1991. And I’m a mom to Stephen who is 21 years old and figuring out who he is. Our day to day, our day to day life is changing. We’ve been my husband and I have been on staff with our church, him for the last seven years as pastor of marriage and family life. And I’ve been working with the coordinating the children’s ministry volunteers and leading women’s ministry. And we are in the midst of transitioning out of that and into full time missionary work with so a ministries yes out of Durham, North Carolina. So we are on a completely new adventure. Just following God where He leads us.
3:31
Wow, that is so amazing. I feel probably all the listeners too are in the same boat of like, oh my gosh, uprooting my life and becoming a missionary. I can’t even imagine. I mean, what I how? I guess you know, I’m sure we’ll talk more about this. But like, maybe a small little How did that kind of transpire?
3:51
Well, honestly, just from the years of working at the church and being shaped by gosh, our hearts desire to let every man woman, husband, wife, know that as long as you’re breathing there that there’s hope. And we spent a lot of time and our story certainly breaks down barriers and allows us to talk to people and allows us to be heard by by couples struggling in the midst of their stuff. You know, my husband’s not the ordinary pastor who was born and raised in the church and, you know, stands up there and preaches every week we’ve been in the trenches with our marriage. Our marriage has been to the ER and back. So realizing as we’re counseling couples that we’ve got all these great practical tools. And we’ve just been learning and realizing over the years at the church that we need to reach the men and women in their hearts if we can help them get their hearts back individually, and understand their stories understand their experiences and where God was in those experiences. And how the enemy wants to tell you who you are in the midst of those experiences and sometimes we believe that we believe him. Yeah. And that shapes our world, and we make lots of unhealthy decisions. So we were awakened to that through Zowie ministries. And just once we got a hold of that, that deeper heart message, we are just we’re compelled who are called to share it to be part of that to take that next step.
5:25
So that is so amazing. Wow, I love that you mentioned, you know, understanding your past and understanding where God is in the midst of those experiences where he was that maybe you believe the lie that the enemy was telling you instead of the truth that God was guiding you in, in those places. So that’s just phenomenal. I’m sure we’re going to get deeper into that. Can you tell me though a little bit about your and your husband’s personalities?
5:51
Sure. And that’s, that’s such a great question. And anybody who listens to this, who knew us back in the day would be like, Oh, that is not the Scott and Sherry, we knew. But although Scott’s still is loud and boisterous, and just he’s an extrovert, he loves people. He’s adventurous. In fact, we travel a lot and, and I call him Ponce de Leon, because he’s the one who wants to take the road that Google Maps does not recommend. He wants to see where that road goes. And I’m just like, really, honey, because you know, we really need to be there and X amount of time, but he helps me enjoy the journey. Yeah, yeah. On the other side, I’m more quiet and cautious and reflective. And I’m certainly an introvert I. And most people now would say, really? Yeah, I just I love being with people. But that’s not where I get my energy, I get my energy in a nice quiet room, or floating in the pool, one of the other.
6:53
That’s awesome. Well, as I said, I mean, there’s just so many seeds of I’m excited about this conversation. But I want to kind of start our conversation if there’s a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you. That might have to do with this journey you’ve been on.
7:10
There are so many, but I have to say one of the first ones I latched on when I met Jesus was I’d started reading a proverb a day. Because, gosh, there are 31 of them. How smart is God? Ever you get to read them? Well, times. It’s awesome. And so proverbs 3125, strength and honor are her clothing, she will rejoice in days to come. And to hang on to that during the days when you don’t feel like rejoicing and you rejoice anyway. And then when you get to places where it’s clear, and everybody’s rejoicing with it, you get to rejoice too. So that’s pulled me forward.
7:50
Wow, what amazing. First, I’m think I will be meditating on that. Today is so perfect for me. Thank you. All right, well, so I do want to kind of talk about that season of struggle in your marriage, because we all learn from each other struggles and the testimony that God pulled us through it. And I love your message of hope. But I think we really need to understand, you know, what do you mean by being in the trenches? Going to the ER and back with your marriage? What? Yeah, could you share?
8:22
And I guess I probably should have said to the Morgan back, because we divorced on our 14th wedding anniversary. Oh, my goodness, yeah. So I start in the middle, so that I can go back to the beginning. When my husband and I got married, we we did not have relationship with Jesus. I had grown up Catholic and military girl. My dad was in the Navy. And so we were raised. My sisters and I were raised to be fiercely independent, strong women. And my husband didn’t grow up in any church. So he had no background, nothing to fall back on. And so when we got married, I was my career field at the time was property management, facilities management and construction, which is a man’s field and I’m about five foot one blonde and petite. So in that field, you had to be louder and sometimes coarser than the men that you’re working with. Yeah, and I was, I embraced that fully. I walked fully into that. Oh, my mouth. Oh, my mouth. So disrespectful. And so just so disrespectful and that it was seemingly great in what I was doing. But it was a very poor formula for marriage. And so coming home and just tearing him down and having no respect for him and speaking to him so poorly. Coupled with his own, he’s the youngest of five. And just not as he’s strong willed, but it’s easier to acquiesce under that sort of braiding and disrespect, so he, we got into a cycle where he would drink and we would fight and he would escape. And I had no idea that he had a proclivity for alcoholism. So that’s what he pursued when pursuing me wasn’t working, because I was more like a porcupine than his wife. Yeah. And just over the years that just wore us down, he was in the fire service in our small town in Connecticut. And he saw a lot of things that I firmly believe we weren’t created to see, we I don’t believe we’re created, see death, the way that we see death. So just experiencing all of that, and not knowing how to deal with it. And the fire service, typically at least 20 some odd years ago, almost 30 years ago, was not a place that helped you heal through that it was pretty much suck it up. If you can’t deal get out of the fire service. So there was no real help. Yeah. And so to escape from that he was drinking. And in the midst of it started having an affair with a woman at the bar. And I had no idea, no clue, because I’m just thinking he’s taking calls. And it was about that time that we found out we were pregnant. And God, I didn’t realize it was God at the time, but just working on my heart, realizing, Oh, my goodness, the words that are coming out of my mouth will sound horrible, horrific coming out of a two year old mouth. So God just started to soften my thoughts and soften my words. And I just, you know, I think all women realize you get to a point where like, this is not the way marriage is supposed to be this cycle of fighting and making up and, and all of that. So yeah, a friend of a mutual friend of ours whose husband was also in the fire service invited me to Bible study, they were having a big life groups push it their church. And it was purpose driven life. And she asked me to attend. So I started going with her. And it that was where Jesus started to really win my heart in a way that I could see. And that’s where I surrendered my heart to him. And in that, that was a year journey with her in that life group. And it was during that time that I discovered that my husband was having an affair. Oh, my goodness. And yeah, that’s when I thought I had surrendered to Jesus. But boy, when you find that out, and you’ve got the right women around you, to encourage you, that’s when I really surrendered to Jesus. And he showed me just who I was, he showed me that I was acting more like his mother and not a very good one. How controlling I was and how coarse my language was, and how harmful I was to our marriage. And not his affair was my fault. But I certainly played my part in wounding my husband, and that was where he sought solace. And
13:15
can I ask you before you go on this just as so crazy, yeah, such a powerful Yeah, crazy powerful. Hard to hear. You know, I can’t imagine living it. So how long were you all married? before? Yeah, before you found out you’re pregnant.
13:36
We married in 91. And we had our son in 95.
13:44
So all that was like when you were newlyweds even Yeah, like you were
13:49
and I didn’t find out about the affair the affair there had been just weekend type of airs, you know smaller one nightstand things. But the long term affairs the one I found out about in 2003
14:04
Wow. So this was like just the way it was that he was turning to alcohol and affairs throughout raising your son throughout your working in his working and yeah, is that kind of how it was for a decade? More than that? Yeah. Yep. Wow. Um, so I like that you said it’s not the way marriage is supposed to be to an end. And when you said like the cycle of like, of like, I’m imagining because it sounds like my ex marriage of just like, rage and anger and then you know, making up and trying to be all better and then all of a sudden they’re, you know, just topples into a huge argument again, and just the cycle is that kind of what it was like,
14:50
exactly an escalating each time. Of course, because unless you do something different, it’s only going to escalate because you haven’t really dealt with anything.
14:59
Hmm unless you do something different, it’s only going to escalate. Because you haven’t dealt with it. Yeah. Wow. So then, I mean, what? You said that okay, so then how did the divorce come about? Did you find out or when you found out, you said you were in the Bible study,
15:15
right. And so walking that out with my friends, and that’s where I really took the Crash Course. And actually, I found out in 2004, I think about it, wow, wow, 2003 eggs, that’s when I surrendered to Jesus 2004, I found out about the affair that he had been in for a year already. And that’s really where I took the crash course on how to be a wife. And what God says a wife is and what he designed women to be as wives. And I just I go to First Peter three in the Amplified Version. And I wish I could say that there was one verse in there. But really, I can’t is the whole thing. The whole thing.
16:00
And for those of us who aren’t thinking about what that like, I can’t think of what first period three is about. So is that about becoming the wife that God wants us to become? Essentially,
16:10
it’s the one that that people really don’t like, because it starts out in the same way what you wives be submissive to your own husbands. Yeah, subordinates not as inferior, but out of respect for the responsibilities entrusted to husbands, the accountability to God, so partnering with them. And that’s why I love the Amplified Version, because you get all of those little bracketed nuggets, that all of a sudden submission isn’t scary. When you know that it’s out of respect for his responsibilities, and his accountability to God. He carries the weight, that’s what our submission is about getting out of the way and letting him carry the weight.
16:49
Wow, can you say that, again, out of respect for his responsibilities to God, or
16:54
the responsibilities entrusted to husbands and their accountability to God? And so you’re partnering with them in that submission?
17:04
Wow. What do you mean by that, partnering with them in that submission, that
17:11
when we come up under their mission, because that’s really what submission means sub mission come under the mission. And we support them in the mission that God has given them the responsibilities and that God has given them. They can do anything. They can conquer the world when we come up, come up under them and support them in that.
17:38
Okay, so, like you said, this is the hard one, right? It’s funny, because God has dealt with this so significantly on in my heart for probably the last four or five months, specifically. And, like you I work with just about all men and my full time job. And just the way it’s, you know, it’s hard to I guess the first thing in my head is that it’s hard to figure out the difference between submitting to every man in the world and submitting just to your husband. And I guess, maybe I should start by that. Do you think there’s a difference there?
18:14
Absolutely. Nowhere in God’s word, does it say to submit to man, it says, submit to your authority. So I submit to the pastor under which I serve at my church and I, but I first surrendered to God, if I don’t. I find, I realized what God showed me is my submission problem was not one first to my husband, it was first to God. Wow, why do you say that? Because if you’re not submitting to God, there’s no way you can submit to your husband.
18:43
Wow. Because you don’t have that foundation of
18:48
you don’t know how. And that spirit that that pride in you. I mean, that’s why we don’t submit to God, right? Because we’re prideful, we think we got it. And if we’ve got that attitude towards our husband, we are not submitting to God. And the other way that I sort of realized that what’s mission was to, it’s sort of my favorite visual illustration. His submission is really getting low and getting under, right. And so when we do that, we’re really ducking so that the Holy Spirit can smack our husbands with a two by four of conviction. And I know that far too often he was hitting me with that Dubai for until I learned to duck. Mm hmm.
19:36
Interesting. Can you explain that in like a situation maybe something that you used to do and something that you learned and it’s been better after that?
19:48
I used to tell my husband, not just that my car needed the brakes done, but that I needed the brakes done. And so would he make an appointment with me? Kanak on this date, and this time, because I wanted to make sure it was done my way. Mm hmm. And so now I just say, Honey, my brakes are squeaking when you look at them. And I leave it all to him. And sometimes he makes good decisions with that. And not necessarily that. I mean, he always does great with the cars, he’s great with cars. But even in financial situations, and all of that I speak what I feel needs to be done. And then he does what he feels needs to be done. And I have found that often he’ll do them better in ways that I thought didn’t seem like a good way but and in times when he’s made mistakes, he’s gotten to feel the weight of those those decisions that he’s made, and I don’t need to browbeat him. I don’t need to tell him he feels the weight of them if I don’t rescue him.
20:50
Yeah, okay. Can you explain that a little bit more.
20:54
So often, we rescue our husbands. So often if they make a mistake, or if we jointly make a mistake, we do everything we can to buffer that don’t make the impact less. And sometimes they need to see the shutoff notice, as much as I hate to say that. Sometimes they need to see a deadline that was missed. And now there’s a penalty, sometimes they need to see a missed opportunity.
21:21
Yes. And it just to summarize, because this has just been so strong for me recently, it’s so you said first of all, if he you’ve given him the space to make the mistake, or to thrive either way, and then whatever happens, it’s not our job to go back and criticize and say you could do it differently. Or you should have done it better in this way or that way. Or this is how you made the mistake. You don’t need to make it worse. He feels that wait, that was the first thing and then the second thing you said that I think that was so helpful, is to also realize it’s also as a wife, not our job to cushion it for him to make it easier to to just go save him to to realize that the bill was missed and go call the electric company and yourself because you’re making it so it wouldn’t be as painful for him. Is that what you’re getting at? That’s
22:09
exactly right. And you cheer him on when it goes well. And when it doesn’t go? Well. You say baby, that’s okay. I know you’re gonna make it right. I know you’re gonna take care of it. I trust you. I love you. You know, you. You do the same thing with your kids, don’t you? They make a mistake and you don’t beat him up for it. You cheer him on you tell him you didn’t you’re not a failure. You just failed at this. Let’s do it again. Let’s do it. Right. Yeah.
22:34
Yep. Yep, yep. Yep. And you mentioned controlling, is that the issue that all this wives are having? Tried to control everything?
22:44
Yes. Yes, there are a lot of us out there. And you know, what’s ironic is, gosh, self control is a fruit of the Spirit. Da.
23:01
Well, so tell me, why do we control? Why do you think as wives as women here,
23:07
it comes down to fear it comes down to I don’t trust God, I don’t trust my husband to take care of me the way I want to be taken care of, and we forget that what we want may not be what’s best, that God or our husbands may see something that’s better for us. And we just, we can’t see it. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. Because their husbands are meant to look down the horizon. They’re meant to look up above the trees and see what’s coming. Do you know what I mean? They’re meant to be the vision casters and the leaders in the family. And we’re meant to take care of the day to day we were meant to dream with our husbands. But we’re meant to, to come alongside him in the day today. And my husband will say Sherry, when there are places we disagree and you’re not following me it’s like giving a cat a bath. I say yes. I’m sorry, honey.
24:03
Okay, so Sherry, I’m again new to this whole realm of understanding I’ve been a Christian for a long time have married for like die, but this part is so hard for me still. Because there are certain things and I’ll just use my own my own marriage as an example. There are certain things that we’ve taken plenty of personality tests and and and I love those kinds of things that teach me about my strengths and the things I’m good at. And you know, what I bring to my professional world, his leadership and vision and organization and strategy, and that’s the kind of thing I like to do. How does that work in a marriage when, as a wife, my husband is not gifted in that same direction, those same departments? How does that How do you think how can you counsel me?
24:54
What are his strengths?
24:57
Oh, there’s many, many, many, many But what I’ve noticed is they kind of complement each other. So that’s how we’ve maintained peace. But I am understanding this in a different way that now that I’m taking a step back from being controlling, which I didn’t used to think I was, but now that I realized some things I read some and God has convicted me about, but like you said, I mean, there were just little, you know, we had a really, really strong marriage. But then there were little times where like, suddenly, it’s something flipped. And and there was a little piece where I was trying to teach him something, or I was trying to, you know, make it easier for whatever. And, and it kind of elucidated everything that was going on. At the same time, I noticed he wasn’t the man that he needed to be for God for our family, for me, he didn’t feel the power to do he didn’t feel empowered, he didn’t feel confident you didn’t feel the initiative. So I think there’s definitely negative things that have come out of this idea that we need to just compliment each other. Because there’s, there’s certainly a way that I need to submit and allow him the be that cheerleader be the one that respects him and gives him confidence throughout. But does that make sense? I mean, what would you suggest to a wife that’s saying, Well, I’m just better at this stuff than he is.
26:19
I have couple suggestions. First, these first an example. My dad was in the military, he was in the Navy. And on the ship he was on there’s there’s always an officer who’s who tends to be the commanding officer tend to be less experienced younger. And they are expected to lead and enlisted the top enlisted man who has many more years, and many more relationships, and many, just a lot more experience in leading the man on that ship than this officer who comes in, but the officer has all the training and you know, the college degree and all that stuff. And so it’s sort of similar sometimes in marriage, where our husbands, their strengths aren’t necessarily our strengths. And so the enlisted man comes alongside that officer surrenders to him in public, you know, submits to him, admits leading the crew, but pours into that officer, everything that he has relationally in the leadership realm, to make the officer a better commanding officer. And that’s what we’re called to do as wives, we need to pour into our husbands in those areas of leadership and our strengths. Because what you described is exactly who I am for the women’s ministry at my church for, you know, the scheduling that I do with children’s volunteers in very different places in my life, I do those things in at home, I bring those strengths in, and I pour them into him. And I encourage him. And the hardest part, I think, for me, and maybe for you, because you’ve mentioned in it is giving him the space to lead and realizing it won’t look like the way you lead. And that that’s okay.
28:08
Yeah. So that’s powerful. And I think that answers the question so so well, that our responsibility as wife is to pour into her husband and give him everything he needs to lead. The best that he can
28:26
separate. That’s exactly right.
28:29
So then my follow up to that is something I’ve again been wrestling with is understanding. Where is the line of of leadership? Where does is there? Like? How do you understand what’s leadership? And what’s not it? Does that make sense? Like, sometimes I, you know, I’ve come to a place of really enjoying kind of, like you said, like saying things that I’d like to do this honey, or I think, I think this needs to be done or something. And then he makes the choice whether it needs to be done or not. And I’m not trying to control him. And I don’t really care about the outcome, because if it doesn’t happen, well, he made the choice and, and it’s not going to happen, that’s fine. But more often than not, he responds and gives me whatever I’d like because he he desires to love me and cherish me the way that I want to. So go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, exactly.
29:19
So I’m waiting for the question. Yeah. That sounds really good. You’ve nailed it. I don’t know. It’s, it’s time.
29:30
Well, honestly, to some degree, I feel like I’m sharing with him. What I’d like to do and most of the time it happens. So it almost feels like I’m still leading because I’m asking for something to happen. Does that make sense?
29:45
Yeah, but that’s okay. It just it’s you just see more because you’re in the day to day and he’s making decisions about Will it get us to where we need to be that you know, where he’s guiding you eventually. And maybe you guys just need some dreaming weekends. Where if you’ve got Kids, you stick the kids with somebody who loves them and you to go off and you don’t. You don’t talk about the day to day you talk about where do you want to be in 10 years? Yeah, you know, what’s God put on your heart husband? Where? Where do you see us in 10 years? And how can I help us get there?
30:17
Interesting. Wow, what a different way of asking questions. What do you see us going in 10 years, honey, because that was the opposite. I used to say things just like that, but more about what I’m dreaming about. Like, I would ask him what he thinks we should do. And then I’d be like, well, I’d like to XY and Z. I don’t you see what I mean? It’s a it’s a Yeah, is saying that I’d like to do these dreams? I mean, I guess it’s not forcing him to do it.
30:50
No, that’s assertive. That’s what we’re supposed to do. Or super, if we can’t communicate and share what our hearts dreams and desires are? Gosh, that’s supposed to be the marriage is supposed to be the safest place on the planet to do that. And you’re right, he wants to meet your dreams and desires.
31:05
Hmm. Well, I just feel so when you’ve talked about this to wives, and they’ve been beat up as badly as you have, I mean, from what you’ve told me, it just the last thing a wife wants to hear, after finding out about an affair after you raising the child on your own while your husband was off, you know, having, you know, time at the bar and X, Y and Z. I mean, how in the world would a wife get to where you’ve gotten to from where you came from?
31:36
Lots of prayer, lots of surrender, lots of realizing that I’m on my own journey. And he’s on his own journey. And I have to walk with God through my journey. And trust God with my husband.
31:55
Trust God with your husband, what do you mean by that?
31:57
Realizing that I can’t change him. There’s nothing I could say to him, I could not convince him. And that leads me back to First Peter three, you know, we try to convince our husbands with our many, many words. And sometimes it’s just our respectful silence, our Christlike character that piques their curiosity, and has them asking about Jesus and wooing them to Jesus, and we let them for me for for me, it really truly was that transformation that second Corinthians 517, new creation, where God stripped away all the harshness and, and husbands notice that they, you know, when you change, you can only change you let your like God change your husband, you can only change you. But when you change you, everyone around you has to change, because they won’t respond the same way to different stimulus. Does that make sense?
32:55
You have to explain that. I love it. But I have to understand it more. I
32:58
know, I understand. And that was a really practical difference for Scott to see because he would try to after learn about the affair, we tried to work it out in our own power. And that didn’t really work. And he said he was giving up the girlfriend and found out he wasn’t. So I asked him to move out because I told him that he couldn’t have me and a girlfriend, that we created our home, to be home for us for our marriage a safe place for our son, and that none of that includes a girlfriend. So he moved in with his girlfriend. And as he would try to, you know, just start arguments and get under my skin. And he would say a lot of angry things because he was a very angry alcoholic guy. Clearly not happy with his life or what he’s doing. And I would respond differently. I wouldn’t, because there’s no talking to someone who’s angry, especially I read through the Proverbs every day, and you’ll totally get that. There’s you don’t argue with angry people. And so him just seeing that he couldn’t engage me that way. Because I would just say, sorry, you feel that way, honey. And that just sort of deflates him because he’s ready for a fight and there’s no fight to be had, you know, a gentle answer turns away wrath and anger. And that he would push those buttons for a while but then eventually realize, okay, this isn’t just an act. This isn’t just a strategy. She’s changing. Wow. And he it mystified him. It made him angry, made him angrier, eventually just totally mystified him and he was curious as to what was going on. So because I responded differently, he had to respond differently. And he started to soften. But then realizing that he was on his own journey, you know, wrestling with God because he’s living with his girlfriend and her kids. It Clearly he knows he’s not he would tell you, I’m not telling you anything, he wouldn’t tell you. He would tell you that he knew he wasn’t being the man that he was supposed to be. He knew he wasn’t living in the right place. He knew he should be with his wife and, and our son. And it’s like that, Paul, thing. You know, I do the things that I’m not supposed to do, because I didn’t know Christ. So he didn’t know why. He knew we shouldn’t do them, if that makes sense. But he was feeling that conviction, that weight of conviction, because that’s what our respectful Christ like character does. That’s what our kindness does, it leads to repentance and conviction.
35:39
Wow. That’s so powerful. So when you change everyone else around you has to change. Because they’re responding to different stimuli. That’s what you said in the foreground. And that’s yes, I mean, that’s the example that happened. So then what and
35:54
I’ll tell you just to stop right there for a second because it didn’t just change at home, it changed at work. Okay, so I’m still in this facilities management. I’m out of construction by then, but still working with some construction men. And my countenance and my character change there too. And instead of yelling at the guys, and cursing at them, and being coarse, I found that if I spoke more softly, they drew nearer and listened to better. And as I respected them as just men who know their trade. Yeah, I was able to elicit the best from them. And, gosh, I had my best years of employment, they had no one at my office at my work knew what I was going through at home. They just saw a superstar manager at the time.
36:41
Oh, my gosh. Ah, Sherry, this is just exactly what I needed to hear. So if no one else is getting this just exactly what God wanted me to hear. This is so powerful. Um, okay, well, let me ask you, then, you know, going from this horrendous experience that you went through, what does your marriage look like now?
37:06
Okay, well, wait, can I just talk about the divorce for one second, because I didn’t want to. I want to take that. No one, because I didn’t want the divorce. I’d read through God’s word to find out about divorce. And gosh, He grieves his heart. And the last thing I want to do is grief his heart.
37:24
I’m sorry, we ran out of time, but it will be posted next Tuesday. So come back to hear the rest of Sherry’s story. I really want you to marinate on what was said in this episode. It’s powerful. So that is the homework. I hope that God just surprises you as you begin to dabble in understanding this. Now I had a hard time with this whole thing called the mission and the Bible scriptures that specifically talk about it i for years, I would literally ignore them. And this is a recent thing. I’m still learning and understanding it’s not easy to understand is it’s just hard. It’s just hard, you can go back to Episode 108. And hear my my story that’s kind of prepped me to receive this one. I would encourage you to go and listen to that if this kind of gets under your skin and you’re just like I just disagree with XY and Z. Maybe my story will mean something to you because my marriage went from a place that was good. But I knew there were big problems. At least I was discontent. I maybe I didn’t think that there were big problems because I just knew there was a discontentment. I knew it wasn’t the direction that God wanted me to go. So if you are listening to this, and you’re like, I just don’t, I’m not there. i This doesn’t reflect the way that I want to be as a person as a wife. Maybe my story will will make more matter to you. It’s called How to get him to do what you want, right? So if nothing else, go there just to listen to the title. Okay, God bless you. I’m praying for you. powerful message today and earn a really amazing finish tomorrow, I want you to, or sorry next, next Tuesday. So if you’ll come back to listen to that, praying for you, I love you. Bye bye.
39:23
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by the show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion
How often do you look in the mirror and judge what is reflecting back at you? How many times have you said something negative about your body? …this week?
Or when was the last time you thanked God for designing “His temple” exactly as it is?
In today’s episode, we walk through someone else’s shoes to understand how it could be different. And why God wants it to be different.
Ruth Buezis has a heart for God and sex in marriage. She believes that trusting our beauty and worth matters to our Creator. And the way we feel about ourselves in sex matters to the rest of our lives. She didn’t always feel this way, not even close. Listen in for hope and healing.
If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/iTunes
Transcript
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah Rose.
0:18
Welcome, and thank you for joining. I’m belah rose. And if you’re anything like me, if you grew up in our day and age, I’m sure you have also struggled with your worth, as a person, as a woman, as a person who is beautiful. If you have struggled with believing that you are beautiful, today’s episode is for you. I think that God cares about the way we view ourselves. Because truly, if you believed that God designed every part of you, he also designed your body. He did not just give you your personality, your soul, your interests, your passions, he also gave you the body that you live in, he designed it, he made it his masterpiece. So I say that sometimes that, you know, if you’re nitpicking apart yourself, you’re criticizing the masterpiece of God. So yeah, the value that God placed on us to knit us together in our mother’s womb, to design every inch of our body to determine that we would be beautiful before we were even born. I just, I just think God grieves at the way that we see ourselves. Now today, I have a wonderful lady. Her name’s Ruth abuses, she has an online ministry and just she’s a powerhouse of insight and passion and conviction towards God and towards the things of marriage intimacy in marriage specifically. And she’s going to be talking about why our beauty and understanding and appreciating that value that God placed on us how that affects not only our sex life and the way we approach our husband intimately, but how it affects every other area of our life and why that matters. So let’s dive in. Let’s listen to her story. And I just encourage you to have an open heart and open mind to see what God might want to tell you through this message.
2:40
All right. Well, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me delight your marriage listener. I’m really excited to have Ruth abuses on today. Welcome, Ruth.
2:49
Thanks for having me.
2:51
Absolutely. Well, I’m excited, really looking forward to this conversation. I think I’ve been thinking about it since Melian. Melanie and I talked back in episode 84, and 85. So listener, if you haven’t gotten a chance to hear Melanie story, it’s really powerful and wonderful. But Melanie and Ruth are actually co laborers in the ministry and work of awaken love dotnet and that’s awaken hyphen love. dotnet. And I’ll have that linked up on the show notes. But Ruth, you know, I just mentioned a tiny bit, would you be willing to kind of introduce yourself a little bit about your family and what your day to day life looks like?
3:32
Sure. Um, I’ve been married for almost 29 years now. And we have four daughters and we are sort of empty nesters are kind of in and out, which happens when they’re still in college. And my day to day life, you know, I worked as an engineer for about four years. And then we had four daughters quickly, and I stopped working. And I’ve kept myself busy with all kinds of activities from everything from woodworking to gardening, to teaching snowboarding, to doing remodeling. And about five years ago, God kind of put all that on hold and told me to stop doing so much. And, and that was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. But through that, my life, my marriage was transformed. And my relationship with God was transformed. And I started this teaching these classes on sex. Yeah. And that is actually all consuming. Now that is, that’s what I do all day long. That’s what’s on my mind. And yeah, so that’s kind of my job.
4:32
Huh? Okay. Very nice. Yeah, it sounds like you’re busy. Well, tell us a little bit. You mentioned you were an engineer and you keep busy and you like just to have a variety of wonderful interests, which snowboarding it’s
4:49
so cool. Awesome.
4:53
So tell us a little bit about your and your husband’s personalities if you would,
4:57
oh, well. We’re both engineers and So, I love to work on projects together side by side, my husband would say that is his favorite thing to do with me. And you know, we’re people that get things done. We’ve you know what kind of steady Eddie’s we’ve been in middle of the road, haven’t had a lot of huge ups and downs. We’ve been in the church since we were kids, and and both really involved in ministry throughout throughout our lives.
5:27
Mm hmm. Yep. So, you know, just getting this conversation started? Is there a scripture or quote, that has meant a lot to you over the years or even recently?
5:43
Yeah, this is probably going to be one of the strangest ones you’ve heard. But it comes out of Psalm 9210. And God gave this to me in looking back through my journal, I was in 2013. And it’s, but you have made me as strong as a wild ox, you have anointed me with the finest oil. And he gave it to me when I was in the midst of of starting ministry, and still just filled with insecurities and wondering what the heck I was doing. And, you know, ministry isn’t just my class ministry is stepping out. And, and reaching towards people, they’re in hurting places in in places where maybe they’re emotional, and and there are tears, and maybe I’m feeling called to pray for them. And that is a not a natural place for me to be in, it never has been. I was the person that if I saw somebody that was in pain, I walked away, because I didn’t want to feel. And I avoided a motion. I think, you know, that kind of goes along with being an engineer. And so God has called me into just a really hard place that doesn’t come naturally, whether it’s talking with people and praying with people about their pain, or whether it’s speaking or whether it’s teaching even that it just has been just a real challenge. And, and I think it’s Christians so often. I don’t know we’re in this place of, of God help me and how do I survive? And all of this, and this is coming at it from this, this point of being on offense of, you know, what Christ is in me? And if Christ is in me, shouldn’t I be as strong as a wild ox willing to break down barriers and go places that I would never ever go on my own? And, and so this is, this is kind of, this is what I’ve lived the last three or four years asking God anoint fate anoint me anoint me, I can’t do this on my own, helped me to be bold helped me to be courageous helped me to not be afraid.
7:55
Yes, so good. So good. I kind of have a lot of questions already. But I think the, I guess, I guess I want to hear you know, how this came about? I mean, you mentioned that this was not something that was easy for you to even talk about. It sounds like or even engage in any kind of emotion, especially surrounding the most intimate part of ourselves, our sexual sex life. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, and you’re very, you know, confident in that God called you into this. And I guess that, I think probably for some of us, that seems hard to get our head around. Like, if that’s not what we are used to or comfortable with. Why would God call us into something like that? So I guess, yeah, just hearing about that. Well, and it probably came out of the difficulty, right, the struggle.
8:53
You know, when were the weakest Scott has a strong mist, right? I mean, and so he works through us most powerfully, I think when, when we aren’t naturally good at something maybe I don’t know, as far as how my story started. Five years ago, I took a study on Song of Songs at church, and we studied it as an allegory of God’s love for us. And every week, we had to read the entire book, and we would focus on a different area. And, and as I read it, you know, there are all these passages that talk about how beautiful you are, and this is God speaking to us, right? You’re so beautiful. And every time I read those passages, I would just cringe. Mm hmm. And I like I hated it. And I and so I began to think about that and and why did it make me so uncomfortable? Yeah, and you know, I grew up as a kid climbing in the trees up in the hills and playing ball and doing school. And actually, some of the most my paint most painful memories were I’ve been mistaken as a boy as a young kid. And, and so being beautiful was never something that I related to I did a lot of things, but eautiful was not one of them. Yeah. And I began to think, you know, this is a human man telling me that I’m beautiful, right? This is God, and why don’t have any issue with that. And I, what I finally came to was being beautiful, wasn’t something that I could do. And I was so used to doing right, I did school, well, I did, like I did my life. Well, everything was in order. And being beautiful, was just something that I was that God created me to be. And as I stepped into this new understanding of taking this head knowledge that God loved me to, you know, what, it’s nothing that I do, I am completely encased in capable of, of doing this. I had a new understanding of who God was. And I had a new understanding of who I was. And all of a sudden, I had this this new freedom, this new freedom with God in worship, and in, you know, I used to sit in the back of a room, or class, and I would literally say absolutely nothing, because I was afraid I would say the wrong thing. Hmm. Because because I was trying to be this perfect person, honestly. Yeah. And when I had a new understanding of who I was, and it didn’t, all of that didn’t matter, then then I was able to step out and freedom in, in actually living rather than staying in the back corner. As is happen, I began to crave more intimacy, both with God and with my husband. And wow, my husband and I, you know, we have been so blessed. We’ve had an easy marriage, we haven’t gone really hard things I had, like I said, Where would you kind of these just steady people. But I wanted a more intimacy, and in what was a good marriage was not necessarily the best marriage because we didn’t talk about hard things. Just didn’t talk about them. We didn’t pray together. We went to church together, we prayed separately. We didn’t read the Bible together. We didn’t talk about our baggage. And so, and we didn’t talk about sex. Hmm. You know, honestly, sex had become this thing that we had when my hormone surged. Yeah, you know, those twice a month spikes? Yeah. And yeah. And, you know, I think about the fact that we think, you know, what, sex is just physical for men. And I think back to that, and I think, man, sex was physical. For me, that’s when I allowed us to have sex. That’s the only time we had sex, basically. And last, I was feeling really guilty. And, and so as we began working on a sex life, and I began reading, and learning more and and, you know, what, I had such a new understanding for how powerful sex was and how much it clued me together with my husband. And some of that is working through the hard things, right. It’s not all easy. It was right. It was hard work. And, and I think that that year that we worked through all that stuff, I probably cried more in that year than I had in the last 25. I have to be honest, I remember one night waking up.
13:42
And, and I was, you know what, I was just feeling like, once again, my husband had not completely filled my needs. And going out and shoveling snow. We had about three feet of snow on the driveway that night. It’s about two o’clock in the morning. I’m out shoveling snow because I’m just steaming mad. Because, you know, your husbands can just fall asleep. Yeah. And we can’t we’re just sitting there stewing. Well, that was right nights. And can I’m out there shoveling and then I realized all of a sudden, I’m, I’m singing worship songs to God. And I thought to myself, My husband is never going to fill all of my needs. There’s no way. Like, he’s not even capable of that, no matter how hard he tried and, and, and only God can do that. And so, as I as I desired and went after more intimacy with my husband, it drove him towards more intimacy with God. So
14:45
it’s powerful. It’s so good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just feel like, you know, kind of going to one of the first points you made was about this process, you know, doing this study about Sangha Solomon’s and really centering God’s love for you. And I kind of want to focus in on that part. You know, I love it. You know, I just did a quick look at some of the things I try. As I think I mentioned to you before I try not to learn too much about my guest beforehand, because I want to be genuinely surprised and kind of go with what I feel it would be most applicable to the audience and what God wants to kind of get out. But one thing I really loved that you had said is become fully known in, in your marriage. And and I believe that also goes along the lines of being known in your in your relationship with Jesus. And I guess, so I kind of am introducing what you’re saying about this beauty thing. So why do you think maybe just first of all, that beautiful, being beautiful, and receiving that matters in in relationship with God? Why? Why do you think he wants us to know that we’re beautiful?
16:04
You know, people talk about how how God thinks we’re beautiful, like, people take that. And they say, Well, that’s because God sees our inside. I don’t think God does see our inside. And he does think that we’re beautiful on the inside. But I actually think that God thinks we’re absolutely stunning, outside to like, even our physical being, and it’s so easy to be hard on ourselves and to critique ourselves. And, you know, we put up these walls of protection, because, because we don’t want to let somebody see what we think is not perfect. And yet, God made us perfect. He made us exactly like he wanted us and is absolutely unique. It is absolutely gorgeous to him inside and outside, we’re made in His image. And and it’s so easy to take the things that that are unique to us that maybe are are different than what the world would see as beauty or as you would typically think of as beauty and, and think that they’re bad things. But they’re not they make us ourselves and, and I think stepping into, into who we are, and in a sense loving ourselves. It gives us a freedom to live completely different. I think about you know, when this happened that year, I had multiple people that came up to me and said, You look different. Hmm. And, and I did. And I look different in everything that I like, there’s when you understand. And you love yourself because God created you this way. And and you embrace that. You carry yourself different, like you’re open. And you’re not my thing about like you can almost look at somebody and some people can be so closed off. Right. And so and I think God wants us to live. Yeah. Yeah. Like he doesn’t want us walking around afraid or, and that means you know what, sometimes? Sometimes we make mistakes. Sometimes we say something stupid. Some I don’t know. But, but that’s okay. We’re living.
18:28
Mm hmm. Yeah, I really like that. Um, so you said that, you know, love when you love yourself because of your understanding of who God made you to be? You carry yourself differently. And I think that kind of tying back to something you also said before is this discomfort of
18:53
feeling like not even being at ease that God would think I was
18:59
beautiful? I mean, I hear that in my own heart. I mean, why do you think we as women have this like dis ease about being fully who we are?
19:12
Yeah. And you know that that’s that Song of Songs, right? Where, where she talks about she’s been working out in the fields don’t look at her because her skin is dark. Mm hmm. And we talk about this in class a lot, because I think I think that this is something that is inbred in us as women. I think it is something that we will always struggle with it to some extent. It is something that we’re going to battle it’s like the thorn and Paul side. And I think that I think it probably drives us towards the dependence on God. I think that it’s also if we are married to our if we’re married, I think it’s part of our husbands roles as godly men big truth into our life. And part of that truth is, man, God made men visual. Yeah, where they just want to feast on our bodies, right? And everything that they see they love everything that they see. And, and because he made God visual like that, you know, what if they just open up their mouth and speak what they’re thinking? And we can hear their thoughts of oh my gosh, you are gorgeous, right? That affirms us. And I think about how great that design is. Understand about sex and about marriage, Martha, man, this is not just happenstance. This is not just oh, men are just kind of like this. Women are like this, like there is a design to this. Yeah. And so I think husbands are supposed to form our beauty. We’re supposed to, you know what? We talk about submission, women are supposed to submit the hardest thing that we have to do. Right? Yep. Yeah. That is submitting to truth, believing truth. And that truth may be from God’s Word. And that truth may be from our husband, what our husband says, Man, you feel good tonight. Like, can we can we receive that? Can we believe that? Yes. Truth? Yeah, instead of saying, You know what, I’d rather believe what the world says. Yeah.
21:28
So my listeners know that, you know, I did an episode back on confidence a little while ago. And one thing that’s helped me is actually to remove mirrors from my house, and discipline myself to not look at my reflection, because I noticed in my heart, I judged myself negatively, as a result of that. And this is not a everyone needs to make this choice. But this is what’s working well, for me, my heart and my past and that kind of thing. The interesting thing now I do have a mirror in the bathroom, so I can put myself together in the morning and I you know, but that’s pretty much the last time I think about it, like once I put myself together. That’s it. And so my husband has really become a sounding board on how I look. And I just trust Him. Yeah. And it’s just become this. Okay, he likes the outfit I’m wearing. He thinks that I’m, you know, looking fine. He’s recently told me Well, he’s told me this for years, but he likes me without makeup better. So I’m wearing less makeup. I mean, just, it’s just become better.
22:28
Yeah. When when our husbands are peeking at us. Yeah, you know, we’re, that’s supposed to thrill us. And instead, we’re thinking, Oh, my gosh, you pervert. What? Why’d you stop looking at me? Don’t look at me like that. But but we’ve been so trained to think that, that that’s wrong, because men on the world are feasting on women, visually that they shouldn’t. Right. And so we put that onto our husbands. But in within marriage, it’s like, it’s a whole new ballgame. It’s a whole new set a rules. Yeah. And this is good. This is God’s design. This is how he created us. Our husbands are supposed to feast on us with their eyes, and and it’s supposed to affirm us.
23:12
Mm hmm. And you mentioned this freedom. Okay. Well, yeah, let’s talk about that. I just have so many directions on where to go. It’s so good. But there’s freedom, you know, when a wife that’s listening is thinking, you know, maybe what’s the point? Like, why does it matter that I really, truly believe that I’m beautiful?
23:36
I don’t know. I, I, you can even just think about your sex life if you want. That’s an easy place to go with it. Right? Yeah, to have the freedom to share your body fully. And stop thinking about what you look like, I think about the freedom to worship. You know, when I used to worship, I probably had an AI somewhere else and it yours somewhere else thinking, I wonder what everybody else is doing. And whatever everybody else is thinking. When I worship now, it is God, me and God face to face, and nobody else is there. And I do whatever God calls me to when I’m worshiping there, because because that’s all I can do. And, and there’s a freedom in that and not worrying. What do I look like? What I sound like? What are people thinking? And I think the same is true in our marriage bed. You know, we’re having sex. And I remember, you know, we’re studying Song of Songs, and it’s talking about this allegory of God’s love for us. Right, but, but we know from Ephesians 531 to 32 that this is really a picture of the intimacy that God is dead our husband wants with us, right? Yeah. Becoming one. And I think about you know, the point of orgasm, right? Hmm. When, when you’re at this place where you’ve completely let go of control and you’re thinking about Nothing else. You’re not thinking about how you sound how you feel, what you look like, right? It’s just the two of you in and communion together. And I and that’s what worship is supposed to be like with God, that place where you’re not thinking about anything else. And there’s no there’s a freedom there, right?
25:21
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it also I really love that you are comparing the two because like you said, scripture that’s a scripturally sound comparison is sex and our relationship with Jesus. That’s, that’s scripturally sound. But I It reminds me of how awful and how horrible your husband would feel if he knew some of the thoughts were going through your mind during sex. I mean, like that you’re
25:47
wondering about the laundry?
25:48
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, you’re the dishes and your to do list and work and that conversation with your friend. And you know, the reason that we keep those things to ourselves, and we try to, you know, God willing, we try to become more present. And that’s a process and a discipline and that kind of thing. But I, it’s because we intuitively understand the depth of jealousy that goes into the marriage bed, and in the same spot, I love that you talk about worship, and that, you know, when you’re more free in recognizing your value and your worth in your relationship to God, and who you are and who he’s made you to be. That worship becomes much more focused, much more rich, much less distracted, because in that same way, we serve a jealous God, he doesn’t want to share us with anyone else, or any other thoughts. And yeah, I wonder your thoughts on this,
26:46
you know, we’re so good. We’re so into multitasking, and trying to control things we are, we’re like, so much better at it than our husbands. We are. And, and, and to be able to be present takes surrendering, it takes some submitting. Mm hmm. And, and that is being present with God, and is being present with our husbands. And I think, I think that we can, yeah, we can learn to do that. I mean, it takes practice, but ultimately takes letting go of control. It’s a faith issue. Do I trust God enough? That I don’t have to keep all this stuff, juggling in my mind on how to juggle all these balls right now? For this for the you know, what? I’m in bed with my husband, I’m not able to think about that stuff anymore. Right. And I think it’s, you know, it’s the same as worry, or something like that, you know? Mm hmm. Yeah,
27:55
that’s really good. That’s really good. You know, I’m, I’m, I’m reading a book by Corey, or listening to a book called hiding place with Corrie 10, boom, boom, and she talks. She’s got an amazing story. But there’s a good amount of the book that really has nothing to do with the most difficult part of her story at the concentration camp. So it’s, it’s interesting that she kind of outlined some of the stories that has really informed the way she looks at life. So one of the stories that really meant a lot to me listening to it yesterday, she said her she, uh, she was, she had seen a dead person, like, someone that had died, maybe in a, I can’t remember exactly the context. Anyway, she, she was torn up about it really sad and concerned. And she talked to her father and, you know, in tears saying that I just, I don’t know what to do with it. You know, what, if you die, when do I die? That kind of thing. And, and her father kind of took a pause and he said, you know, Cory, when we go to Amsterdam together, when do I give you your train ticket? And between sobs, she’s like, well, I guess it’s right before we get on the train. And he said, and exactly. And our heavenly Father knows exactly when we need what we need. And so right before those of us that need to endure death, or whatever the struggle, we can look into our heart and our heavenly Father will have given us the strength we need for that. And that meant so much to me. Thinking about, worry our lives, what is coming the, like you said the difficulty we have in surrendering and truly trusting. But if we truly trust that our heavenly Father knows what’s best, and he’s going to give us our train ticket right when we need it. Because he is looking out for us in that way. Anyway, a little bit of a tangent but that that mental is good. So um, so one part that I think a lot of us can really recognize Again, in ourselves is this. You know, you talk about this, this truth that your husband is speaking over you and he loves your body. And he thinks this way about you and that kind of thing. What would you give? I can I can kind of almost hear the responses in people’s hearts thinking, Well, my husband doesn’t do that. He doesn’t say those things. Why would you say to her,
30:27
you don’t want my husband didn’t say it either. I have to be honest, when I started this journey, five years ago, and and hit struggling with was a beautiful. I, I finally got to this place where I believed it. I kind of displays, right, I actually had a conversation with my husband. And I said, You know what? I need to hear from you. If you think I’m beautiful, I need to hear it from you. And he said, he said, don’t I say it all the time. And I think you know, and he’s probably literally thinking in his head, but he wasn’t speaking. And a couple times a year, I teach a men’s class, and I’m always telling the guys, you know what, this is not about speaking what you think you’re supposed to speak to your wife, you know, oh, you need to tell her you. She’s beautiful. So tell her that, right. That’s not what it’s about. It’s about what taking what you are thinking in your head. And speaking it out loud. Because they’re thinking it, but they need to speak it out loud. I think that there are probably some marriages out there, where maybe a husband was vocal. And, and from the start, he was telling her how beautiful and every time he told her, she’s saying No, but look at my hair or look at, you know, this part of me or this part of me. And, and she didn’t receive it. And he may he may have gotten to the point where he just just just decided, you know, what if she wants to believe what the world says, go ahead. And there may need to be some repentance there, of going back to her husband and saying, You know what, I do need to hear this from you. And I’m sorry, I want to choose to believe you and not believe what the world says.
32:12
Yeah. Yeah. And and I think, you know, if I could make this as practical as possible to the wife that struggling in this way, I think the thing that you kind of just outlined is number one, you got to a place of believing it for yourself. You believed what God said about you, you believed that your value was tied to the master creator that designed you informed you in your mother’s womb, not any other standard, not the standard the world whole.
32:41
And it’s not your husband’s job to convince you that you’re beautiful. He can’t convince you of anything. He cannot. It is his. For him to affirm that what you believe it because because we are going to have insecurities that creep in Yeah, absolutely. But but he can’t convince you. Nobody decides whether you’re beautiful except yourself,
33:04
huh? Yep. Yep. Amen. Amen. That is so good. So that was the first step was to get to a spot where you could convince yourself, truly speak the word over yourself to get to a spot where you believed it. And then number I, you know, as something else, I think I want to sneak in here something you said earlier, was even you came to a spot where you recognize that your husband would never be able to fulfill all your needs, he would not be able to be everything that you’ve just desire and crave. And I think you really underline that that meant it drove you to the Lord, you have to get that fulfilled from God, you can’t need that from your husband. You can’t demand that from him. You can’t require that up him. That’s that’s a that’s a relationship with Jesus that needs to be done. Is that the way you would say it? Yeah,
34:01
yeah, that’s like, that’s a huge, that’s a huge deal for us to expect our husbands to fulfill all our needs, man, they don’t have a chance. Ran and it’s multiple times, right? That was not just that was just not one evening of realization. That was that was multiple times over and over that. And because because we’re slow learners.
34:25
Yeah, yes. And not only that, we need to be reminded, you know, I think about the Israelites so often. God said when he did something miraculous, he said, Now make a makeup and an altar and tell your children and your children’s children what I have done for you because we forget Yeah, we just forget.
34:45
Yeah, and I you know, I have a journal and it’s one of my treasured possessions is just from the last four or five years but, but I read through that and just reminded me of, of the journey that I’ve been on. And that’s something so important for me. You said something else too. And I just think about, you know, we can become so reactionary and so sensitive to what our husbands say. And I think we kind of test them a lot, actually, we test them to see if they if they really love us if they’re really going to give up on us. And I think I kind of had my husband in this place where I know I had my husband in this place where he actually was afraid to talk, because he was afraid he would say the wrong thing. Right. And, and, man, he was totally right on, like, I was testing one little word, and I would take it the wrong way. And, and I’d be all upset. And that wasn’t what he meant at all. You know, he’s just sitting there trying to say the right thing. Under all this stress and pressure, we’re trying to figure out the right button to push. Yeah. And some of that is going back to baggage in our own lives. And why does it caught? Why do things make us prickle? And I have one piece of baggage, I only really only recognized recently, when my husband and I were dating, I knew that he had been with a couple of other women before me and and I was a virgin. And and I had it in my head that if I didn’t sleep with him, he wouldn’t fall in love with me, because I fell head over heels in love with him from from date number one. And so and so I was the one that initiated sex. And, and that’s the place that it left me was wondering, okay, he had had sex before. So did he not initiate with me because he didn’t think I was attractive. Or because he actually had learned from his past and decided he wanted to do it right this time. Now you can guess which one I chose to believe deep in my core was that I was the consolation prize. I was the practical choice for a wife. But he was not head over kills crazy, in love with me. Didn’t think I was gorgeous, beautiful, wasn’t sexually attracted me. He just married me because we get along great. And, and so that was part of my bag. It’s right. And that’s how that that was the lens that I viewed everything that he said to me. Right. And so going back and sorting through baggage has been a huge part of my process. To learn, you know, what, what am I filtering things through? And is that the right filter? And having conversations and, and so my husband and I have part of our process was was me working through baggage.
37:49
Yeah, that’s huge. And thank you for being so kind of just so honest and open about your story with that. Because I think I mean, that definitely is part of my baggage as well having that same insecurity about my own husband. And yeah, having sex outside of marriage before it what my principles, right would have would have given me and the confidence that that could have given me had it been in the right context in the right spot and the right timing.
38:18
Yeah. And I think I blame my husband for years that we had sex outside of marriage, that he didn’t hold the line. And I think back then, like, I’m the one that did that. I made that choice I initiated.
38:27
That’s right. Yeah, I hear that. So I hear that for me, too. Yeah, I hear that for me, too. And I guess that almost, you know, we talked just last month with the one of my actually my best friend and she mentioned that she went ahead and Keller, if any listener wants to go back and listen to that, but she did it the correct way in in that she had had sex before marriage out. And then she spent some time really clearing out the garbage she spent a year celibate not dating nothing. And then her next relationship she got on the right track. And now it’s resulted in a wonderful marriage and and they waited, though they had both been active before their their marriage and before their dating relationship. Anyway, I love that, you know, the underlying here is getting that understanding of what baggage has done to your filter in how you filter through the world. How you I love what you said lens, you know what glasses you’re wearing to look out at your husband.
39:33
Yeah, and, you know, I don’t think there’s any baggage that God cannot heal. Hmm. There is nothing that he cannot take away. But it takes hard work it takes first recognizing it. It takes bringing it out into the open. I think we don’t when we you know, when we pray just with God, I think it’s different than we would pray with somebody else. And so my My husband and I went through this together and we don’t like you don’t have to talk details with your husband, but in general ways how you’ve let things affect who you perceive him to be or, or how you can perceive sex or how you let it affect your marriage. And we prayed over these things. And for some of them, there was instantaneous change. And some of them it was a process. It took a while.
40:27
That’s wonderful. Yeah, yeah. And I love the hope there that ultimately, you know, God is our hope. He’s the God of hope he can turn these things around, regardless of the background, he changes back and changes
40:41
us. I’m not sure I really believe that until like, he’s completely changed me. I’m not sure I really believed it before five years ago. And so he can completely change you, he can completely change your marriage, he can change your husband. You can’t, but God can change your husband. Yeah, that’s awesome.
41:10
So take that with you listener, that God can change you. He absolutely can transform you into a woman who believes in her value, who believes in her worth, who feels free, in intimacy, to share herself and be fully known as the woman as the beautiful woman that you are. To trust that, to believe that, to walk in that. I think so many of us will live this life without recognizing the value that God has placed in us and it’s needs to stop it needs to end right now. Today. It takes work. But get yourself in a discipline to honor the value that God placed on this earth when he put you in it. God bless you, I love you. I hope that you’ll come back next Tuesday for the second half of this awesome interview. And praying for you and your marriage your walk with God. Love you. Bye.
42:17
Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion
PI: After yet another heartbreak, culminating in a night of drinking and a miserable morning…made Kellar realize she wasn’t headed in the direction that would be fulfilling. She was ready to get off the rollercoaster of hurt. And God allowed her to take an opportunity to change her life around. Then she made intentional choices and met a man who she began dating and intentionally choosing saving physical intimacy for marriage. Hear her journey and be inspired in your marriage.
How Kellar’s life took a radical turn after waking up after yet another heartbreak.
How to save sex for marriage and why.
How Kellar made significant changes in her dating relationship but it started with her courageous (and unpopular) choice that mattered.
How she made an intentional choice to stay single and become a God-honoring woman to be prepared for a God-honoring marriage.
Books & Resources Mentioned:
The New Rules of Love, Sex and Dating the Andy Stanley bible study which impacted Kellar so much that she ended up choosing singleness for a season to become the woman the man of her dreams would want to be.
Episode 100: How To Find The Love Of Your Life – My take (Belah) on how you can find the person of your dreams. I give the specific strategy that Kellar used that helped her meet her (now) husband 2 months later!
Scripture/Quote:
Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong. Do everything in love. 1 Corinthians 16:13
Tweetables:
I had just had my heart broken again. And God used it to get my attention.
Getting out of that loop of receiving your worth from other people is so tough but necessary.
Become the person who you’re looking for, is looking for.
Continuing down the path that hasn’t been working, is not going to get you what you want.
Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!
Love,
Belah
—
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Transcript
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah Rose.
0:18
Hi there and welcome. Thank you for joining me today I have a special treat it is one of my dearest friends Keller Ronan. And as you probably know, if you’ve been with the podcast for a while, you know that I don’t use my real name on the on the podcast not to be secretive, just to be private, I talk about lots of vulnerable really intimate details, obviously, because that’s what this podcast is about. And so I just prefer to use a pseudonym. And I gave my bestie the same thing. So you’ll notice every now and then we’re like Kettler. I mean, there was only a couple times where we slipped up and I had to go back and cut it out. But for the most part, it’s so anyway, I really wanted to have her on if you got a chance to listen to episode 100, where I talk about how to find the love of your life. Well, like I mentioned my best friend quite a bit in there. And so Keller is on today to talk about that story fleshed out a little bit how she went from someone who was really living life for herself and after kind of heartbreak after heartbreak of this relationship in that relationship and lots of things like that to end up coming to a place where she felt God really needed her to be prepared for marriage and what that that story was like and the other thing that I think she really brings to this and her next episode, which will be coming out next Tuesday is I really think a fresh it kind of infusion of of excitement about marriage and so if you’ve been married a long time, even if you think she might not have the depth of understanding because it’s it’s a lesser amount of time being married. I think we all need that fresh inspiration that fresh excitement that we might have let lag we might let get forgotten a little bit. So listening to kill her story. I think she’s got wonderful insights. And I’ll talk to you on the other side
2:23
Okay, welcome back to let your marriage listener I am really excited to have you thank you for being here and today. I have my best friend Keller Ronan on. Hi, Keller. Bella, welcome. I’m so excited to have you. Excited to be here. I talked about Keller story quite a bit. So I thought it would make a lot of sense to have Keller on and talk about her story, her side of things. And also, though it’s a fresh marriage, I’m really excited to hear her insights about marriage because a lot of us, you know, after we’ve been married for a while, it’s easy to forget some of those early initial feelings and excitements in the in the things you’re learning. And I just, I just am so excited for Keller to give us a fresh perspective and a fresh take on in what she’s learned so far in her journey. So, so Keller, would you go ahead and just start us out, as you know, but just introduce yourself a little bit. Your family and what your day to day life looks
3:23
like? Sure. Yeah, well, yeah, I’m so glad to be here. As I said, my name is Keller. My family is a family of two, me and my husband, sigh. We live in an apartment. We both work full time jobs. And we’ve been married now for about nine months. And after dating for about a year and a half. And we both love the Lord, we attend church, in our city and where we live and live in a pretty urban life. And yeah, we have a really great setup. I think we walk to the train he drives to work and yeah, our day to day life is pretty busy. But we try to sprinkle it in with you know, afternoons with friends and evenings out. And time at home. Just relaxing, watching TV reading together hanging out that kind of thing.
4:20
Very nice. Well, so and we both live in New York City. Yes. A little bit of perspective. That’s, um, yeah, so not everyone lives in the city life and what that actually looks like. So that’s kind of an interesting take on things. But would you go ahead and share a little bit about your personality and your husband’s personality? Yeah,
4:39
sure. So I think my husband and I are kind of similar in many ways. We’re both extroverts. We’re both communicators. I would say that I am more of an ideas person. Like a more of an enthusiastic planner. I really love getting people together and making things happen. OSI is a bit more serious. ematic he really does everything in a certain way, everything from how he goes about paying bills and organizing finances to where he likes things in the kitchen, how he wants certain dishes to be washed, that kind of thing. Yeah, more of a more of a free spirit, I would say and those, that kind of department as far as how things are done, but he’s a little bit more systematic, I’d say, in that kind of thing. He has a really great personality, I love the way he can kind of just strike up conversations with anybody and even awkward situations, and really just make people feel comfortable. I feel really comfortable taking him into situations where he really doesn’t need a line and just feeling really safe, that he could just talk to someone and find common ground with someone. So it’s really cool for me to watch and something that I really admire about his personality. And yeah, I guess both of our personalities are both pretty playful, both pretty outgoing, like to talk, like to be around people like to go to parties and host parties and that kind of thing. So, but I would say that he is a little bit more, he’s a little bit more introverted than I am. Whereas I get a ton of energy from those kind of settings. It does. I would say he loves it, but he needs to have a good balance of alone time and time to decompress. And probably more equal parts. Whereas me I could kind of just go all day and get being around people and, and not really feel tired by it at all. So
6:25
yeah, yeah, no, that’s no, that’s so good. Would you share a scripture or a quote that has meant a lot to you over the years? Or even just recently? Sure,
6:33
yeah. So one scripture that kind of spoke to me in my singleness. And when I was kind of in this phase of trying to work on myself and becoming the person that I want it to be for my future partner. And it’s, it comes out of Corinthians, and it’s beyond guard, stand firm in the faith, be courageous, be strong, and do everything in love. And the last piece of that scripture really has spoken to me over the years and kind of helped inform my motivations behind you know, my interactions with people and just trying to really get me back grounded and how I could try to be the most compassionate and kind person that I could be. And I think back to a lot of my kind of previous relationships and how, you know, it’s really easy to get caught up in, you know, thinking about yourself first. And I think selfishness was a common theme in a lot of my previous relationships. And after kind of a heart hard, but very growing year, I guess, of really focusing on trying to think about my motivations for what I’m saying how I’m behaving, how even thinking about and looking at people, and trying to see them the way God sees them, and to treat them and let my motivation be love in my relationships was, was a really eye opening experience for me. And something that’s really helped me I think, to just become a better person, and more of the kind of person that I would want to be in a relationship with. So Hmm,
8:12
that’s exciting. Okay. Well, I think you’ve kind of alluded to this next question that I wanted to kind of clarify, but just, you know, what’s a story that you can share with us and maybe a difficult season or struggle that either is in your marriage or, you know, that affected your marriage? And how did you overcome that?
8:27
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I guess I can kind of just tell, yeah, sorry, please. So my husband and I met at a different time in my life, I guess I was coming out of kind of this season of not focusing on dating and, and just trying to really focus on myself, my relationship with God and kind of changing the life that I was living, I moved to New York City, not really knowing anybody and kind of went through a series of really, you know, unhealthy, ungodly relationships and had really turned away from God in a lot of ways. And so I definitely was working on I went through a season of a year where I just decided I wasn’t going to be dating, I wasn’t going to be focusing on relationships, and was really going to just be focusing on you know, becoming a better person and becoming the person that I would want to be in a godly relationship with. And I’ll just put a small plug there to a sermon series that I went through with a group from my church, the Andy Stanley new rules of love, sex and dating, which really helped me kind of put myself in my mind set on a path towards actually finding the love of my life and helping me to evaluate the kind of relationship that I wanted to be in. But okay, so let me speed forward.
9:42
Well, let me make sure we understand so So you move to New York, and you’re in you know, just kind of a series of unhealthy relationships that weren’t following God, that kind of thing. And then so you got connected with a church or how did that act? How did that kind of help? Yeah, so
9:57
I I woke up one morning and decided to maybe try going back to church, I found a church and ended up meeting the man who was starting a church in the neighborhood where I lived. And so I just kind of got involved very early on, in that in that new church, which we now both attend. And it was a really great experience. And over that first few months, I’d say, first eight or nine months of being a part of that church, a small group formed where a group of ladies and I participated in a sermon series, where we kind of met together and listen to the sermon series on a video and then just discussed it over several weeks. And that was kind of the start of my year of singleness, where I just kind of tried to, you know, clear my mind and just recenter my life on, you know, becoming the person that I was looking for.
10:53
Okay, and so, so, because I know the answer to this, I have to ask. So, you said that you woke up one morning, and you just decided you need to go to church? I mean, was that was there a catalyst for that? Why?
11:08
Yeah, I mean, I had just had my heart broken again. I was definitely at the low end of another roller coaster ride, Ray had been just terribly disappointed as a night of drinking and just was just feeling, you know, really down, you know, this is this, it felt not, you know, rock bottom. But yeah, I was pretty, I was in a pretty low place at that point, and just didn’t have I felt like, you know, this is the only thing I can do, I need to change something in, in this pattern, which has just not served me well. And, you know, essentially, the pattern of just kind of living as I had in college, just really thinking about myself thinking about what was fun, and kind of just going about dating the way really the world sees dating, you know, who’s the hottest guy that you can get to pay attention to you and that kind of thing, and just putting a lot of your self worth and your, you know, attention on different guys, but really, not really thinking about too much, you know, more of the long term of what kind of substance Am I looking for in a man’s character? So
12:10
yeah, I think that’s just so important that you mentioned, you know, first of all, just, I had just had my heart broken. And again, I mean, I feel like that has been the impetus to, like, really change. It’s just amazing how God uses the heart to like, change, like, just, it hurts so freakin bad. We just can’t help but make a change, you know?
12:32
So true. Yeah. And I’ve been there and I feel like it’s, I see my single friends going through the same thing. And it’s, it’s so hard to, and then to see if you can try to find meaning from it. But kind of like you said, God definitely uses those times to get our attention, I think and to help us to make those hard decisions of this really isn’t working, do you want to try something different? Do you want to try doing this the way that I’m prescribing you to do it and come back to God? And he’s, he’s so faithful and good in those instances? So?
13:05
Yes, it’s so true. It’s so true. And I and I also like that you kind of, you know, a lot of people in our society, I mean, we both have single friends in the city or, you know, wherever you’re living, I’m sure you can think of me talking to you, listener, you can think of singles that think this way. And maybe yourself is one that, you know, you’re just concerned about the exterior. And I guess, Keller, why do you think that’s the case? I mean, why do you think our society has come to this place of like, it just matters, like you said, like, getting the hottest guy in the room to pay attention to you?
13:38
i It boggles the mind. It really does. Because I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, where we feel that we got our worth from when we were younger. And you know, I think that I remember very vividly the first time I got hit on I was 14 years old, I was in a grocery store. And the man was much much older than me. And it was at a time in my life when I felt you know, just so insecure. And so like, so I was very shy, you know, I didn’t get a lot of attention from boys or at school. And I just feel like those kinds of instances like they really can imprint themselves in your mind and can help you or, you know, steer you to feel that your worth is wrapped up in what the world says about you. And in you know, thinking that the validation of others is is more important than the validation of God. And I think it’s really easy, especially for young girls who to get on that path and then everything in society kind of confirms it, you know, the skinniest, the prettiest, the most popular. That’s the best and the girl who can get the best guy is the best and I think it’s definitely something that from media and you know, pop culture that is just really hammered hard into into our consciousness, so it’s really hard to shake and I think it really took You know that that kind of wake up call moment for me of saying, you know this? This isn’t a pattern this kind of self destructive roller coaster up and down? Is he going to text me? Is he going to call me? Oh, he didn’t call and I’m crushed now you know. So trying to get out of that loop of feeling your worth from other from other people. It’s tough, but I think just so important to being able to recenter and refocus and get on a path towards something that’s going to be, you know, healthy.
15:30
Mm hmm. And it’s interesting. Um, well, first, I just want to say the, like you said, that pattern, the rollercoaster, you know, is it going to call? Is he going to text? I mean, that’s, I just can so vividly remember that horrible feeling? You know, when you’ve gone one day, two days, three days since the date and it’s just heartbreaking, you know? And like you said, the the part about your you’re not, you hadn’t thought about the content of his character. And, you know, we’ve all seen marriages fall apart, however, long after the beautiful wedding, you know, with beautiful people that were desperately in love. And then, you know, of course, that’s what this whole podcast is about is the you know what happened? Right, but, but I think we’re, you know, talking about kind of that, that earlier phase, like, what are you looking for in a person, so, okay, so, now that we’ve got the backstory, okay, so Andy Stanley numerals of love, and sex and dating, I’m going to have that on the show notes. So our listeners can easily get to that. But what did that do for you? Why did that? Why was it such a changing moment? That, uh,
16:33
yeah, I mean, I think, one part of the series near the end, he recalls a story of a, of a girl that he met, and he talks about kind of her story and how she she comes to him and says, you know, I moved to Atlanta, and I was kind of living, like, I just had out of college, and I could hear a lot of my story in that, you know, she was just stating, you know, kind of casually, and she’d grown up in the church, but I kind of drifted away, and she was having sex outside of marriage, and, and just just kind of doing things, you know, she just kind of slipped into the pattern of her friends. And everybody kind of saying, you know, this is just how it goes, this is how dating in a city goes, and how she was kind of at this social function one night, where she met this really, you know, handsome guy who was just talking about his faith, he was talking about his ministry and His Church, and she just was enamored by him, she’d never met anything like him and just thought, you know, that’s, that’s what I thought I want, you know, that’s what I always wanted from when I grew up in the church. And, you know, that’s the kind of guy that I would want to marry. And she was just so excited about him, she chatted with him, and, you know, was so excited after the night and went home and told her mom about him, and her mom, you know, knowing what her kind of life had become, after hearing the story said to her, you know, sweetheart, a guy like that’s not looking for a girl like you. And it just broke her heart, you know, she was devastated and, and she could finally see your life with some perspective of, you know, this isn’t the path that I wanted to be on. It’s never what I wanted. And, you know, I really want to go back to, you know, what I was raised with the faith that I was raised in and want to change around the way I’m doing this whole dating thing, I know, I’m doing it wrong. And I just I felt for her and really resonated with that story, I felt, I could see myself in it. And, you know, you know, I want to turn this around, I want to get back to my faith, and I want to start dating in a way that, that, that the church, and that God says, is on the path toward a healthy, godly marriage. And so I think that that was just really defining for me, a major turning point. And from then on, I just decided, you know, I, I don’t want to date anybody else that I don’t think has the potential to be my husband and my life partner. Awesome. And so he kind of prescribes at the end of that series that you take a year off of dating, and try to become the person that the person you’re looking for is looking for. And I think throughout that process, you know, I just tried to get really busy, you tried to get really busy with church and involved in my friends and my friendships and my friends lives. And somewhere along that line, I ran, I met you and became very fast friends. And I remember after the year, I think the year ended, I believe in August, and then I think in October, you and I had kind of sat down and talked about you know how I could start dating again and I was just you know, really wanting some advice for what to do next. And I remember writing out the list of things that I wanted in my future husband and the things that I didn’t want and you know, I as you kind of refer to in Episode 100 I definitely came across that list just the other day ago and was absolutely astounded by how many of the things on that list? My husband’s I just completely embodies things that I never thought that I was really looking for, you know, somebody who’s handy and somebody who’s mechanical and who has strengths and things that I don’t have. And he’s, he’s just spot on. And I’m just I’m so grateful that we went through that exercise. And I walked away from it in December after that, you know, meeting my husband that December, which was really quick.
20:22
Wow. Isn’t that cool? Just two months? Oh, my gosh, praise God, I didn’t realize it was so good. Well, you see, God is so good. Okay, so I just want to kind of point out some things that were really amazing. In your story. You know, first of all, you recognize that God was giving you an opportunity, you know, Andy Stanley, small group this series, you I mean, the story really resonated with you and you didn’t let that go. I think it’s easy for us to get distracted over and over and over again, and we hear something that has the potential to change our lives. And we just keep going with whatever we’re doing, because we just can’t take the time to make a change. Right. But you were really intentional. You said, no, no, this is not what I want to continue. I don’t want a life full of broken hearts. And you know, the dream of a fulfilling, godly marriage to disappear. And so you spent that year really intentional. And I like you said, I met you during that year. And it’s true, you were very intentional about church activities. And, and the ways you you spent your time and the relationships you were pursuing and, like the friendships. And you really did focus and, and I just, I just think that’s so wise. And I would say anyone that’s listening, you know, if God is offering you a second chance, another chance, maybe it’s a third a 20th chance, it’s time, it’s time to make that change, really. And I love that you spent the time to do that, to work on the quality of your character as a as a woman of God, as someone who wants to be pure in the way that she lives her life pure and holy before the Lord, I just appreciate that so much. And then you took that, that next step to say, Okay, now, who is the kind of person I’m looking for? And? And then how to do that. So so Yeah, wonderful, wonderful stuff. Um, anything you want to add to this, that would be helpful for our listener who might be in a spot that you were in?
22:22
Yeah, I would, I would encourage you to listen to that sermon series. And to, to evaluate where you are in your life and say, you know, are you happy? Or do you feel that this is this is the right kind of guy that you want to be with? Or if you’re single? Do you want to be in a relationship? And if so, what are you willing to do to be in a godly relationship and to find the man of your dreams, I would say, you know, really think hard about it. Because you know, continuing down a path that hasn’t been working, is not going to get you the results that you need, you know, you have to make a change. And I think that that’s sometimes the hardest step is deciding to do something uncomfortable and you know, do something that maybe doesn’t feel as fun to not have a guy calling you and texting you for a year. But yeah, I think, coming to terms with is this a change that God’s asking me to make? Is this something that he wants? For me, that’s going to ultimately bring me a lot more joy and fulfillment. And I think that if you do make the change that, that you’ll see that that that’s true.
23:25
Hmm. And I kind of want to point out something that might be people might be wondering about Keller Keller is incredibly beautiful and, and an incredibly easy kind of social light like she’s she can be the life of the party, easy to meet people has the confidence to stare across the room in the wind get someone like, that’s who we’re talking about here. And she it was intentional about saying no, no, no, I don’t want where my life is that I don’t want the relationships that have been and how to transform that. And I guess, um, maybe were there any other kind of practical things you did during this year, that you felt kind of made you a person that was ready to be in a relationship?
24:09
Um, I would say, you know, a lot of a lot of time in prayer, a lot of time reflecting on that scripture a lot of time. You know, trying to avoid thinking about and just letting my mind be consumed with dating and guys, which is thing, I think, because it’s so easy to just, you know, wherever you are, especially in New York City, you’re surrounded by people all the time, and you can constantly be you know, you walk onto a subway and there’s a new group of people that you’ve never met, and there could potentially be that temptation to say, the love of your life could be sitting in this train car right now. So for me, yeah, like you said, you know, I don’t have a problem with just striking up conversations with with people. So it was definitely a switch of like, you know, you’re not you’re not pursuing that right now. That’s not what this time is about. And let’s focus on who wants to who you Do you want to be in a relationship with and what you need to be to be the correct partner for that person, because the person that I was looking for is definitely a man of God and definitely a man who, who puts church in his ministries ahead of, you know, going out and drinking and you know, that kind of thing. And just, you know, somebody with their priorities, right. So I think practically, I guess, the shift in your mind decided to work on practical things in your own character. For me, like priorities and, and purity for sure. A big one, which I think you know, just the, the whole process of clearing your mind and not pursuing and lusting after guys and trying to, you know, just it can be very consuming. So just like purification period of not thinking about dating and not thinking about intimacy, and that kind of thing. So, yeah, yep, yep, yep. Yep. Yep.
25:51
Okay, so I’m sorry, taking those. I’m really love that. So I did cut you off, though. I think you were kind of moving into what happened then after meeting psi. And what was kind of the next step for you guys?
26:03
Sure. Yeah. So I met psi at a church event at a bar in New York City. And they’re talking all night and starting to date quickly after, and we decided really early on in our relationship, actually, I brought it up, and he wasn’t fully on board. But we decided early on in our relationship, that we were going to save sex until marriage, and he was really, he was hesitant when he heard that I think he wasn’t expecting it. And, you know, he had come from, he was in a similar place in his life, you know, where he had been single for a long time, and, you know, wanted to find a Christian girl, but was trying not to really think about it was trying to kind of put dating out of his mind, he was just kind of over it when we met. But, you know, I did kind of make that pronouncement early on in our, in our dating life, that I wanted to wait to have sex until I was married. And I strongly believe that the Holy Spirit really just changed his heart around that. And he came to feel the same way. After, after a month or so. And, and I was really grateful that that, you know, had potential to turn to a big fight, and maybe even be, you know, to be a deciding factor in whether or not you’d be able to continue dating, but But yeah, so we continued on in our dating journey, as you know, trying to be as pure as possible, and to really honor God with our bodies and honor God with the way that we went about dating, deciding, you know, really clear boundaries of what we felt was okay, and what we didn’t want to do, and we, you know, sex definitely being off the table, oral sex, all that definitely off the table. And, and, and, yeah, so we dated for about a year and a half, and got married last October.
27:51
Hmm. So I do want to point out something that, just because I know the rest of the story, sorry. But But you did say you had the potential, you know, to be kind of a right, like a Yeah, was a deciding fat deal
28:07
breaker. Yeah, that was definitely one of the deal breakers, I’m pretty sure on my list of things that I needed to have. And I’m really glad that I put my foot down. And that and I, I see a lot of relationships that drag on for a long time before, you know, people dating 6789 10 years and living together and, you know, they’re happy. But I do feel that, you know, marriage does change something, and especially being a girlfriend for that long can can be so hard, and you want that validation, and you want that commitment, and you want that, you know, feeling that we’re really in this together, and nobody’s walking away. And I feel like it’s a really slippery slope. You know, I could have said, you know, I really admire this man, and I really want to keep him. So maybe I should just give a little bit on this one area. And, you know, I think it just has the potential to become that, you know, slippery slope of, well, we’re happy and everybody’s getting what they want. And so Why Does anything need to change? Why do we have to get married? Like, what’s, what is what difference does that make if we, you know, we both love God, and we’re both having our needs met, you know, when differences that make so I’m definitely glad that that’s not not the path that that our relationship went down. And just so grateful, because you know, that whole year and a half of, of not having sex and I guess for many men out there that seems like an eternity to have to really train and discipline your mind and I was just I was so impressed by Psy and his self control is one of the things that I admired from him from the very early on in our relationship that he just has an incredible amount of self control and something that I really admire and that we really got to help kind of teach each other through that time and, you know, get it gave us this kind of, I guess common, you know, it was a bond that we had that we know, we’re both working towards this and decided to be pure and decided to do our marriage this way. And we had a lot of conversations about it. You know, sex wasn’t like just something that we didn’t talk about or think about, we definitely, we talked about it. And we talked about what we wanted it to be like in our marriage. And we talked about, even with our single friends and our dating friends who weren’t Christian and explaining to them why we decided to make this decision together and why we felt so strongly about it, and why, you know why we were committed to living in a pure, a pure dating relationship. And it gave us a lot of opportunities to talk about to talk about our faith, and that’s something that I loved. And, you know, we would kind of look to our married days and say, you know, we hope that our marriage is going to be this, you know, will be a testimony to what a marriage can be if you go about dating the way that God asks us to, and to really honor sex and keep it holy for marriage. And yeah, so now we’re in the married phase. So I’m excited. And yeah,
31:07
yes. Okay. Well, before we get to that part, I do want to just point out, like you said, the bravery, it really took for you to put your foot down. And I do remember, there was a guy that was kind of before side that, you know, was a potential, and you put your foot down, and he went away. And you know what, by God’s grace, because he was not the right man for you. And so I kind of want to just encourage any woman that’s listening is that it’s very possible, your your fears might be absolutely correct. But God has, it’s almost like you had to kind of pass that test so that you had the fortitude to continue on a year and a half into dating the man that you love, and you want to get married with and that you even get engaged to, um, you already had those muscles kind of strengthened in that, you know, earlier, like, well, he’s obviously not the one.
31:54
Exactly, exactly. That’s for sure.
31:57
You know, and the other thing that I noticed, and you know, a lot of my listeners, if you’ve heard my story before, I was sleeping with my husband before we got married. And, you know, what I noticed it did for me was an he wasn’t a Christian, and I was away from the Lord. And that was kind of, but what it did for me prior to marriage was it, it really was a barrier between me and God, I was not able to connect with the Holy Spirit or go to church with a clear conscience, like I just couldn’t. But it was almost like a switch flipped. Once we were married, like I was able to really dig in really repent, because I knew it deeply in my heart. There wasn’t this, like, underlying conviction that I was just ignoring. And so I just encourage, you know, the, the true depth of, you know, import that honoring sex is the other thing. And I wonder, you know, you and I’ve talked about it before, but what does it mean for you, as a woman who’s married to a man that waited for you? Like, you know, like, what does that mean to you?
32:59
Yeah, I mean, it definitely shows me that he had is strong and has a lot of self control, and that I really don’t ever feel fear that he’s gonna stray outside of our marriage, or that he’s, you know, if we, you know, God forbid, you know, had to go months without having sex, you know, for some reason that he wouldn’t be strong enough to do it, and that he wouldn’t be, you know, just as committed, you know, that day as he was, you know, a year and a half into our, into our relationship without having had sex. So I think it does, it’s definitely strengthened my competence in both of us and our ability to be faithful to one another, which is, I think, something that’s kind of hard with how, you know, kind of society tells us that, you know, marriage doesn’t really work, and we aren’t meant to just be monogamous. And in, you know, people need to be free to express themselves, that kind of thing, but it’s been really affirming to know that we, nope, we made our decision. And we made vows to one another and we already proved it out. You know, we proved that we proved it out in our dating phase that we were going to be faithful to one another and cherish each other and respect each other’s bodies and honor God with them. And and we’re gonna continue to do that throughout our marriage. So,
34:19
so good, I guess my last question to this first part of our interview and definitely listener tune into the second part because Keller talks about you know, what happened after marriage? It I’m excited to dig into that more but, you know, what would be you know, someone maybe that’s, that’s listening that desires, marriage or desires, maybe to get their, their their relationship. Maybe they’ve got a committed relationship. Maybe they want it to turn into a marriage, a lifelong covenant. I mean, what’s maybe a last some pieces of advice that you’d like to give her?
34:50
Yeah, I would say if you are in a long term relationship, where sex is a part of the relationship and you’re hoping that It will turn into a marriage, and you’ve kind of been dating for a long time, I would say, after prayer, to definitely bring this to God, what’s on your heart, and to have a very honest conversation with your partner about what you want for your future. And I would also say, you know, as hard as it seems, if it’s, I would say, to raise the raise the idea of deciding to moving forward in your relationship to be pure in your relationship, and to take sex off the table. And as difficult as that is, I have seen it in other marriages, and I have seen it, and other relationships, you know, turn into marriage afterwards. And I think, you know, by talking about it, and, you know, explaining why it’s so important to you, and especially if you are both on the same page with your faith, why you feel that, you know, making this step towards what God wants for your relationship can improve and just be so much more beneficial to you, down the road, I think is very, very important. So that would be my advice. I think that it holds a lot of people back and holds a lot of relationships back from taking that final step towards marriage. And and I guess if if that doesn’t feel like something that you could do, I’d say, talk to a pastor or a counselor about it and how to approach this situation.
36:20
Yeah, so that’s great advice. Yeah. And it’s funny, you know, because I, you know, me, I like to listen to business books, and these kinds of things. I was interested recently, I read something about millionaires. And something like 97%, something like crazy high 97 98%, something like that, of Self Made Millionaires have been married for decades, their 3040 year marriages that have supported them in their goal of financial success. And obviously, you know, I’m not saying that we all need to be millionaires. That’s not the point here. The point is that they were able to accomplish something, astronomical things that that many, many, many, many people are striving for. And yet marriage was the key was a huge, huge factor. And there’s almost like nothing else that unifies this group of people quite as much as that. And I just think, like, even like, what did they do? Like, there’s maybe 50%, or business owners, the other 50%, or like, CEO, they’re 40, you know, 30, it breaks down from there, whatever. But the point is that if you think about, you know, whether whatever side of marriage you are, whether you’re a husband or wife, marriage provides an opportunity, and we talk about this so much, but it provides that growth that that, that focus the things so it’s not, it does, yes, commitment does cut off your other options. Yes, it does. That’s an obvious given. But if you don’t do that commitment, your life is just less effective, you’re just not able to do so much. Because you don’t have those ironclad commitments in your life. commitment to a faith is vital commitment to a marriage partner, I believe is vital. If that’s something that you desire in your heart, I believe that lifelong commitment is vital for you to fulfill what God wants you to fulfill. So I guess that would be my final encouragement to a husband, you know, a potential husband or potential wife that might be listening or, or maybe someone that’s got kids that they want to, you know, give this this episode two. But, you know, marriage is something that God uses, and I think he really can, and I think it stretches us and and causes us to have greater character in that way, specifically. Okay. So let me wrap up this episode. So come back and listen to the next episode. Next week on Tuesday. Thanks so much for joining us. I’m so glad Keller was willing to give her story and the next half is just as good. She talks about how saving sex for marriage was a great choice, but also came with some challenges. So she talks about how they worked through that and what sex actually ended up being. After some, some difficulties. So I think it’s a it’s a, it’s a story that needs to be shared. And something that’s going to be really important. Whether you’ve been married a long time, or not very long at all are looking forward to marriage. I think Keller has got some really good insights. Also, once again, do tune in to next week if you are a veteran spouse because I think again, Keller just infuses with some new fresh vision, fresh energy and excitement for the journey ahead so you won’t want to miss it.
39:37
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word. If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion
Jenny knows what it’s like to struggle to stop & recover from sexual addiction, so do I. Today, we break the back of shame (the devil’s #1 tool) and reveal what so many others cover up. Jenny is brave to share a story about sexual addiction that is affecting at least 37% of women. We hear often about the men, but women struggle too. And it’s time we talk about the hope there is for women.
Why it’s such a problem for women and what is at its root.
The story of a woman who faced down the shame giant and valiantly overcame it.
What you can do to get free of this addiction.
How to help your sisters who are struggling (become a safe person).
What to do when you question your own sexuality (something I’ve done).
Scripture/Quote:
Proverbs 31:25
She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come.
Isaiah 43:2
When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze.
Galatians 6:2
Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!
TRanscript
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah Rose.
0:19
Hi, and welcome. Thank you so much for joining today. If this is your first time listening to the delight your marriage podcast, I want you to know that we talk about marriage, intimacy, sex, sexual addiction, sexual brokenness, intimacy, emotional, physical, and spiritual. Those are the areas we really focus in on. If you haven’t gone to delight your marriage.com, I would encourage you to go there, there’s so many resources for you. Let’s see, I guess this is episode 97. So we’ve got 97 other episodes that you’re welcome to check out, you can use the search bar, and there’s a couple of updates there that I’d love for you to check out. Otherwise, today is a program really focused in on women that have had sexual addiction, either in their past or something they’re currently struggling with. And specifically, we’re talking to an amazing, brave woman that really works with women that are struggling in sexual brokenness, and pornography addiction, and Jenny Miller, who just has an amazing story, it’s really incredible. This is the first half of her episode, sorry, of her interview. But I would love for you to just realize that this is something that so many women are dealing with 37% of women are dealing with it. 50% of men 37% of women and it’s growing. And if you don’t, or haven’t struggled with this, I’m sure many of your friends have, and even your daughters and nieces. And I just encourage you to listen with an open heart. And I think the full point, I guess at the end of this whole episode, is really that shame is not the answer to what you’ve gone through the answer is Jesus. And He can give you a lot of hope. Through the words of Jenny, I believe so. So I’ll talk to you on the other side.
2:28
All right, well, thank you so much to let your marriage listener I’m so glad that you’re here. And I’m so excited to have Jenny Miller on the line. Hi, Jenny. Welcome.
2:38
Hi. Thanks for having me.
2:40
Absolutely. I am so excited that you’re here. You know, Jenny, and I got connected. I think I sent a request into well, tell us a little bit about your ministry. And and what you do
2:53
there? Well, I am the director of administration for a ministry and Umbrella ministry called Whole women ministries. And basically what we do is we work with women on a number of issues that they are seeking hope and healing for one of our ministries underneath that umbrella is dirty girls ministries that specifically works with women in the area of sexual brokenness and sexual addiction. Yeah,
3:18
that’s awesome. Well, I’m so excited, like I said, when I happened upon their website, because there’s a lot of my story that really deals with sexual brokenness, and and we’re even going to talk about pornography addiction in the realm of women having that addiction, because we’ve talked a lot about it on the podcast, when it’s men are the ones that are struggling with this, but as most I mean, I think we’re going to talk about it quite a bit. You know, it’s it affects women. I mean, am I wrong? Is it something like one in three, something along those lines? In
3:49
any women? It is, the statistic is actually growing? It’s about 50% for Christian men and women is growing, I think it was 37%. And we know that it’s higher now. So it’s gaining closing that gap in between being equal.
4:04
Wow. And these are these women that are dealing with it now or, or have dealt with it in the past.
4:10
A mixture of both the women that come into our community are actively you know, involved in sexual addiction, pornography addiction, a fit marital affairs, different types that they’re seeking healing from, and then we have women all the way that have been walking through recovery that just want to stay connected to a community. So it’s a wide range.
4:32
Oh, that’s, that’s such important work that you do. That’s amazing. Okay, cool. Well, yeah, obviously, this is a huge, huge issue that’s affecting men, and it’s also affecting women and marriages. So that’s what we’re talking about today. So Jenny, again, you know, this whole podcast is really about inspiring women talking about their stories, digging into what God has done for them. So let’s just start off if you could, you know, you introduced a little bit of your ministry, but if you could introduce Use yourself a bit. And what your day to day life looks like.
5:03
Well, I’m a mom of three amazing kids. So they are 13, eight and four have two older boys and a little girl. And happily married this September, I’m celebrating 15 years married to my husband. Congrats, thank you. My day to day life and I have to laugh a little bit. I’m very, very busy. I run 100 miles an hour, most of the time. My husband Yeah, he works a lot of long hours. So I have worked from home probably over the last decade. As far as myself, I do ministry. I have my own business. And I’m a full time student. I’m actually leaving tomorrow. Oh my gosh, to go graduate with my degree. Thank you. That’s huge.
5:48
And you have time to talk to us. Thank you so much.
5:50
No problem. I’m just packing running around. But um, yeah, our day to day life is packed really full. I’m really busy. I’m getting ready start grad school in the fall so
6:00
amazing. That’s incredible. Well, for any of us that have been out there saying well, it’s just too much. Look, Jenny’s done it. It inspired ladies. That’s amazing. Well, okay, so tell us a little bit about you and your husband’s personalities. What do you guys like?
6:15
Well, um, if I, my our personalities are really different for starters. So my husband, Randy, he’s a really laid back kind of guy. He’s a really hard worker, he loves to work with his hands. He loves being a dad to our three kids. And we did the you know, love language assessment early on in our marriage, which is very helpful, by the way. But we found out that his love language are his words of affirmation, physical touch, quality time. And then me on the other hand, I’m a really emotional person. And when I say emotional, I don’t mean you know, sobbing all the time. And all of that just feeds. I feel things really deeply. So I’m a really empathetic person. And I love people, I love doing things for others, but I do have kind of that type A personality. So I am a left brained, analytically minded person. So I really love organizing and, you know, building systems, and sometimes this drives my husband nuts, because he’s so laid back, but my love language is actually almost solely acts of service. So it’s really interesting.
7:19
Mm hmm. Yep. That’s interesting. Okay, and we heard a little bit about you kind of like to get things done and do a lot is your, your husband, you say is more laid back, he’s more relaxed on these things.
7:33
He is, um, it doesn’t take a lot to entertain him. He just likes just being being around. Whereas I like to have something in my hands. I like to keep busy. I like to be moving. So yeah, that’s different in that regard.
7:48
Yeah, that’s funny. Okay, cool. Well, that that gives good insight on where we’re going next. But to start things off, do you have a scripture or quote that’s meant a lot to over the years that kind of informs this discussion?
8:02
I do I have to, because I can never do what I’m told and just pick one. So Marie’s will take it. The first one is Proverbs 3125. It says she is clothed in dignity and strength. And she laughs without fear of the future. And the other scripture that I love, and it will make more sense as I tell my story, a little bit is in Isaiah 43. Two, it says, when you go through deep waters, I will be with you. When you go through rivers of difficulty, you will not drown. When you walk through the fire of oppression, you will not be burned up, the flames will not consume you. So those two have really been life versus for me over several over the last several years, for sure.
8:44
That is so powerful. I love especially, I actually just did a podcast about confidence. And proverbs 3125 was a big, that was episode 95, if anyone wants to go back and listening to that, but that that it even says in that proverbs 31. It talks about Woman of Valor, there’s that there’s almost like a better translation than a virtuous wife who can find its own to wife of Valor, which is like that strength, dignity, courageous. So that’s powerful to me as well. That’s awesome. Yes, okay. Well, I want to really dive into your story. So if you could share a season of struggle or difficulty in your marriage, and maybe it was, you know, came even way before that, but I’d love to hear your story.
9:28
Okay. Well, it’s difficult to share my story, you know, in its entirety, based on the limited time we had together, but I’ll try to condense it down, you know, so it’s easy to digest and kind of hit the main points, but it does go way further back than my marriage, but just talking about my marriage to begin with, like my husband and I, we we came from different family backgrounds. And that’s really a story on itself. His I would say was really stable, more stable than mine was, even though he did have some issues. I’ll share in just a minute, but my story is really, I’d say a lot more colorful a lot more difficult. My upbringing was more difficult there was, in my past and past relationships, I had a lot of abuse and abandonment, trauma. And I grew up in a really spiritually abusive church environment. So that combination, I would say was kind of deadly. Going before my marriage, I didn’t know my biological father, he was an alcoholic. And when my mom left him, my stepdad adopted me at a really young age actually didn’t even know anything about that until I was about seven or eight years old. When, when they got together, my stepdad was also an alcoholic before we entered into, you know, our church, so our home was really tough as you can imagine, by the time I was a teenager, I was kind of the poster child for insecurity, I was just lacking a lot of the affirmations, I think that a young girl really needs. Yeah, so you can imagine puberty rolls along, I began to get attention from the opposite sex. And I would say it’s, you know, it wasn’t the right kind of attention. In my mind, I thought it was love in some distorted sort of way. And really a sheltered I went to my church had a private Christian school, I went there, it was the same building as the church within, so kind of to say, I lived breathed. That place, I was there every day for school two to three times a week for church, you know, there was a midweek service youth group summer camp. So I was just in this bubble. And I was really, really naive to what was outside of that. So fast forward to graduation, and getting a job and entering college. It really was, me, like entering into a culture I had never been in before people that you know, we’re not believers. And I guess I could say, you know, I started serial dating. And when men or guys would pay attention to me, I just, I made choices sexually, that were really terrible for me. And it just started this spiraling out of control at that point. And I graduated at the age of 17. I my major in college was computer information systems. And this will tell you how old I am, but computers were I didn’t have a computer at home at this time. So the only computers they had was at college they had in the library, they had a whole computer lab and so I had to go there to do my homework I didn’t you know, did split killing time before work and, and school. So I was on the computer a lot found chat rooms, which this totally girl it was in a bubble. And you know, that was a whole new experience for me just chatting with different people, and then you know, chats with men, and then those turn sexual. And I remember, pornography actually happened in the school library, it was in the very back of the library that there was hardly ever anybody in there when I was there. And so it just popped up one day, and it just sparked something. In me. It was excitement, shame, all of that rolled into one. Yep. And that just started a track of of 11 years of being addicted to pornography, that I really kept hidden the entire time, I did not tell a single person because like you said at the beginning, you know, I thought this was only men that high, right? Women don’t have this issue. And so a lot of women, when they are struggling with this, they get to the point where they get married, and they think, Oh, I’ll get married, and this is all gonna be fixed, it’s all going to go away. And that’s what I thought too. I got married in 2001 to my husband and kept this completely hidden. And as you know, the problem continued, it did not get fixed. All the way through, I was pregnant with my second son, when really, I hit rock bottom. And I actually told someone for the first time in that whole 11 year period. And I started walking in recovery with the same ministry that I’m actually with now. And you would have thought, you know that maybe that was the end of the story. And you know that but it really wasn’t. And I thought it was I was starting to do ministry I was starting to speak I wrote my story. It was published in a book. And about two and a half years ago,
14:22
I was diagnosed with breast cancer out of the clear blue. And my husband and I, as you can imagine sexual addiction, you know, ruins the intimacy in your relationship. And so we knew it was a problem. We knew we had to work on it and we started to really make progress right when I was diagnosed. So then comes chemo radiation, a double mastectomy, a full hysterectomy. You know, sends you into full menopause and reconstruction which my issue was because of the radiation the reconstruction kept failing. So I had about 16 surgeries and all that ended with what they call a TRAM flap procedure, it was, for me, it was kind of a last resort. And to make a really long story short, you know, my body was bluffed, broken, it’s deformed. It’s nothing like my former self. And so this kind of set me back, I think, to square one with what we were working on, and we both had a crisis of faith at that point. And I really didn’t even know if our marriage would make it at all. Oh, my gosh, you know, it was a lot of anger, my husband was dealing with just anger of the situation, anger of my addiction and what it had caused, and it just started this cycle of blame, that really started growing worse by the day. You know, fast forward to today, I mean, we’re still a work in progress. It’s a lot of surrender and, and compromise, my husband has gone and gotten help for his anger issues, and it’s just working through kind of the wreckage that my addiction and cancer has caused, and that daily work with a lot of grace, a lot of forgiveness, you know, a lot of space so our family can heal.
16:09
Yeah. Oh, that’s amazing. Yeah, I just feel like there’s, there’s so much here, and it’s so probably easy. I like, you know, what you said, the cycle of blame, you know, I think that’s so easy in our relationships to get in that spot to point fingers. And if you had made different choices, or if you had done this, or all of that, you know, I want to also mention, you know, my story, similar to yours in that, you know, I was super sheltered growing up and, and then stumbled upon pornography when I was doing homework one time in high school, on the computer, and, and yet, it turned into a very secret, shameful addiction for years. I’m not sure how many years but six, maybe seven, something like that a long time of shame. And so I think that, you know, maybe maybe that’s the area to start is like, how you got through this shame. Because I imagine there’s a lot of women that are listening that whether it’s a porn addiction that they have struggled with, or currently are struggling with, or it’s infidelity, or, I mean, there’s so much shame around our sexuality, and choices we’ve made with it. What would you say to that, to talking about that shame.
17:30
I think that shame is the number one tool that the enemy uses, to keep us silent to keep us, you know, shackled up in that. And it’s not just shame of what we’re doing. I mean, every time you know, you have that cycle, where you act out, you look at pornography, and then you have that down depressive time, that you need. To go back to that, again, it’s just a vicious cycle. But that shame, you know, usually stems from a wound before that addiction even happen. And just, it’s an identity issue or an intimacy issue where the shame of who you are either you were, you know, told a lie by someone that you’re not good enough, you’re not worth it, or it’s been an abuse or trauma of abandonment that has just created that wound. And you turn to this as just kind of a false sense of intimacy, really. And it just perpetuates that cycle of shame. And then you’re triggered again, when someone says or does something that reminds you of that wound. And it just, it’s that trap.
18:34
That is really good. That trigger. And I appreciate, you know, your honesty and authenticity. And in talking about, you know, the recovery is not like, once and done like it’s over. And I remember that like even into my marriage, having, you know, to come and you know, teary eyed talk to my husband about what I had done. And that, you know, I guess, you know, as women are making these first steps into maybe recovery, let’s say, what are some guidance that you could give them about the journey ahead in recovery?
19:13
Well, with any kind of trauma and most people come, you know, seeking help for the addiction issues first for you know, I want to stop doing what I’m doing. And I’d say that that is the first place to to look at first before you back up and look at you know, whatever kind of trauma is underlying behind it, because many people don’t know what it is. But if there’s one thing I could say is just to emphasize the word daily, and what I mean by that is there’s one thing I’ve learned is that we only have control over today and what we are think today what we choose to do today, it’s today is the gifts that we’ve been given and what we have control over whatever choices we make attitudes, behaviors that we do today, or what’s going to affect our future. So depending on what your struggle is, it may be be you know what you choose to think on for that moment. And I have to always remind myself to bring myself back to today. And a daily prayer that I started to pray was God, you know, what do you want from me today? What do you want me to do today? What do you want me to say today? Because it’s really a journey, it’s a daily walk, it’s just 1000 times making the decision just to do the very next right thing in front of you. And well, as far as seeking help for any addiction issues or struggles Galatians six, two says, To bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. And I think that’s the number one thing is the surrendering knowing that this is bigger than me, I cannot keep you know, I can’t fix this by myself. I’ve tried and it’s not worked. And that I need to break the silence. Yeah. And our culture, I have to say that we think we’re more connected than ever, you know, we have Facebook, social media, but we’re not connected on a relational level. And I, so I, I guess I equate that to like, think of yourself as like, your own little island. And you’re sending out these little perceptions of who you are, you know, glimpses of what we’re thinking, and we think we’re making these connections. But really, it’s just like the highlight reel, you’re just broadcasting what you want people to see about you. So I’d say that the real connection, you know, is finding safe people and learn what it means to do life together and to talk about those hard things.
21:27
Mm hmm. Yeah, I so appreciate that. It’s interesting. We actually, I interview someone, it’s coming out the week after your interview Jenny about finding safe people. So I’m not going to dive into that. But yeah, there’s there’s a couple books out there that are really helpful. But finding safe people I think is huge, huge, huge, huge. So So yes, so I like that you said the first step is dealing with ending that addiction dealing with the the the actions, the behavior, but the second piece of that is understanding the underlying trauma, the thing that’s triggering the thing that’s wounded, that’s making you go to that, again, that infidelity, the pornography, whatever. The thing is, and we’re talking about pornography for women right now. So let’s, let’s focus on that. Um, so, you know, as a woman, you know, let’s say she finds the safe people starts opening up, connects with your community, whole women ministries.com. That’s the website. Is that right? Yes. Yeah. Connects there, starts opening up with safe people. Now, think thinking about that trauma, why is that important to understand?
22:44
What happens is when you know, whatever that trauma can be, it can be from your childhood, it can be something even recent, but usually it’s an abuse or an abandonment, trauma or something like that. And some people don’t even understand what that is. So once you’re, you know, you having accountability, and you’re starting to look at, we run from intimacy, another word for sexual addiction is intimacy disorder. And so we lose that connection and that ability to be vulnerable and to be intimate with other people. And so part of healing that is learning how to heal in community, and how you know, the very thing that we’re running from, is the very thing that’s going to heal us. And so it’s difficult for a lot of women to number one, say it out loud. And number two, you know, share, but if you can do it in a safe place, where there’s other women that are like you that have walked the journey before you, they know, I would say call you out on your stuff, but we we’d like this easy for us to hide, and that’s our go to hide, and they can say hey, you’re hiding? And you know, I know because I’ve been there and yeah, it’s it’s just we have to heal and community even though it’s difficult at first.
23:56
Oh, that’s so true. And I love that, you know, kind of circling back to the shame idea, right? Because the shame the enemy is telling us no one will understand what you’re going through. This is the worst of the worst. You are, you know, all these lies a myriad of lies. If you know what I’m talking about, you know exactly. Those lies of the enemy. Just you can’t How can you go to church when you’ve just done that smut all night long, or the day before or whatever, or just hours before? I mean, it’s just like horrible, horrible cycle of shame. And, and then you know, it reminds me of that terrible Austin Powers movie of the the fat guy saying I’m, I’m fat because I’m unhappy. I eat because I’m unhappy and I’m happy like, unhappy because I eat and so there’s like, this, like this cycle of like, you get in that mode of like shame and guilt and sadness, and then you want that, you know, release to run away from it that escape and then it’s the cycle that just keeps going and yeah, what do you think about that?
24:57
I have to say that one of the things I hear the most Is that women will say, I’ve gone to my church, I’ve gone, you know, up to the front, and I’ve been prayed for and I’ve asked God, please take this from me. I mean, I was there, I can’t tell you how many years I went and just cried and just said, God, take this for me take this for me. And the next day, I would find that I’m struggling again. But I wasn’t surrendering. I was, I was still hiding, I was still silent. And that shame kept me silent. And it wasn’t until I open my mouth. And I have to say, the weekend I decided to do it. It was out of nowhere, somebody was talking. I can’t tell you what they were talking about. But something on the inside of me was like screaming, say it, just say it, say it. You can’t keep doing this anymore. And I just said it had no idea what would come out of it. It was two women standing there. And the other one looked at me and said, Jenny, I can’t believe you just said that. She’s like, I have struggled to. And I just I felt like a load of two times fell off my shoulders at that moment.
25:59
Yes, yes. Yes, that’s right. That’s right. Yep. Yep. I can remember two instances during this addiction that I shared with the women that I trusted. And the first one was much earlier on in the addiction, she was my best friend. And I told her, and her initial reaction was, she was horrified. And she said, we’ll stop. And that’s what she did. And she was young. I mean, we were in high school or whatever, so that, then I bottled it, I bottled it for a long time until I was on a mission trip. Far away from home, you know, obviously, on this mission trip, there was no access to internet, obviously. So there was just like, kind of a freedom for a while. And I shared with a woman there and she was much more mature and a safe person as we, as you mentioned. And she just held me and was like, you know, me too. I’ve had my sexual struggles. And she shared, you know, the difficulty she’s gone through. And, and we just, it was just this wonderful, like, freedom. And I think that was a real turning point in my being able to, yeah, walk out of walk out recovery, I guess is the way to say it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you also mentioned that you heal in community. Now, women, it’s hard to talk about this, right? Why is it more difficult for a woman to talk about porn addiction than it is for a man?
27:34
Well, I think the reasons that women and men turn to pornography are different, even though studies are showing that women are becoming more visually stimulated now, just because of the culture that we live in, and how visual everything is, you know, there is still a difference. I used to think that when I would look at pornography, my main concern was, you know, I would question my sexuality, you know, am I, am I a homosexual woman? Am I straightaway? Like, I don’t understand this. I’m not attracted to women. But yet, why do I look at pornography? That is we hear so often. And the reason why, for me, and what this is, what I hear a lot is that it’s not necessarily that I’m attracted to the women. But there’s something about the woman being assertive and being it’s that distorted sense of reality, or does that distorted sense of intimacy, I’m looking at that unhealthy sexual relationship and somehow in a distorted way, I’m, you know, equating that with intimacy and equating that, and then, you know, obviously, the chemicals firing in your brain and the high that you get from doing that is part of it as well. But when I finally understood that, that was the reason why I was turning to that. Wow, that was really eye opening to me. It was almost like I was becoming that woman in a sense. Mm hmm.
28:51
Yeah, yep. Yep. And I, I actually definitely went through growing up like this questioning concern about my own sexuality, if, you know, if, if that’s what’s attractive to me. And I think one thing that’s helped me kind of come to terms with with it is that I think sex is attractive, I think, for pretty for generally everyone that sex is attractive, and you know, your eye, like if you are walking down the street, and you see sexual sex happening there next to you. It just, it turns your attention, you can’t help it, because that’s the way God designed sex. So if you’re witnessing sex, male or female, I think it’s attractive. And I think, you know, I have so much more to say about this. But I think one piece I’ll just leave maybe a Next, another podcast, I’ll talk about it more. But I think it’s just one of those things that like, what we focus on grows. So if we focus our attention on what we appreciate about life, what God has given us our blessings, the good things, if we ask ourselves questions about what is God done for me today, then we’re going to get really good answers. We’re going to Think about all the joys, the blessings, it’s going to grow, our appreciation for life is going to grow. But I’m sure you and I and Jenny, and everyone listening knows people that have so much. And all they can think about all their focuses is their health problems, or their money problems, or their, you know, stress about job or something, and you look at them, and you’re like, you have everything. How can you be so glum and bad? Like in your head? Like, why are you because whatever you focus on is going to grow in your head and in your thoughts life. And I think that’s the way it happens with our sexuality. If you focus on what’s amazing about your spouse, what’s, what’s incredible about his body, what you are find attractive, what are the areas that are just so amazing to you that you’re so grateful that God gave you this amazing human specimen to you why then that focus is going to grow? Because God gives us barriers and boundaries in the Bible. He says this you can do. And so when we see the can do, let’s enjoy it and embrace it in an experience all that it is. And I think the enemy wants to instead move our focus away. I mean, do you have thoughts on that?
31:11
Exactly, there’s one thing that I say often, and that’s if you’re in a boat, you have your compass, you know, guiding your way, and your compass gets one degree off one degree, that the the amount of miles that you’re off course, by the time you get to the end and how much you will miss the mark off one degree, it might not seem like it at first, you know, it might look like you’re pointed in the right direction. But that slight tiny little deviation will end you up in a totally different place. And so that’s what I come back to the daily thing, your course correcting every day, you’re putting that compass back on true center where it’s supposed to be, which is Jesus Christ. And that is a daily effort. It’s, you know, you can’t just do it one day, and then float off for several months and think that you’re okay, it’s a daily walk.
31:59
That is powerful. I just love that I did want to go back to that. Because daily, that’s powerful. So let’s say, let’s think about the wife that is deciding right now, to accept the free blood of Jesus the gift that He’s given you to wash away all of our sin from yesterday, you know, maybe after this podcast, you can say a prayer and get that forgiveness and accept it, receive it and move forward. So now a fresh day? to course correct? How How does the wife do that? How does she practically course correct for the new day, the fresh beginning that she’s been given?
32:39
Is this individually or in her marriage? Or both?
32:43
Yeah, do both, that’d be awesome.
32:46
I would say a wife has to firt. Number one, it has to be individual. First, you can’t pour out of a vessel that’s empty. So to be the wife that you need to be or want to be if you’re empty, or you’re like you say your compass is pointing in a different direction, you’re going to miss the mark in your marriage every time. So it has to start with you first. And I know for me, I had to once I confessed to my husband, I had to say, Hey, I’ve got to get help for me before we can work on us. And so he had to show grace and step back and give me the space to be able to heal the things in me so that I could be a better person. So whatever that looks like for each person, if it’s just, you know, getting back into daily prayer, and I know as women we are the we put ourselves last always, we just do we do we give of ourselves to everyone, and whatever’s left, if there’s anything left will give that you know, maybe to ourselves or maybe to God, you know, but we have it backwards. You know, God has to be forefront and we have to take care of ourselves so that we can be who we need to be to other people. And so it’s what it you know, asking yourself the question, what do I need to do in my life? What needs to change in my life? What do I need to say no to? And no is a complete sentence, I just want to say that, like, that’s a lesson for me. You don’t have to give a reason. You know, it’s okay to work on you for the time that it takes as far as your marriage. There’s just three things I guess I could say. I’ll say them really quickly. It’s not take up too much time but to really make your marriage successful. I think. Number one is for us, it’s communication. I’m so thankful that my husband I are able to communicate because I’ve seen so many couples that can’t communicate and if we lack in the communication skill with our spouses more than likely we’re lacking in our communication with God too. So that’s something that we need to work out. You know, and talk about our feelings, our struggles, our fears, what we’re upset about and listen to the other person and I don’t mean just listen, you know audibly but listen as an understanding what they’re trying to communicate. maybe repeat it back and say, This is what I’m hearing is this what you mean? The second thing I’d say is to just check comparison at the door. We our world is nothing but comparison. And I go back to social media because we all live on it. Pinterest, you know, and it can be the death of us. It’s just, it’s a deadly trap, because so many marriages look like they have it all together. And you’re seeing what they want you to see. No one’s living, you know, in my husband and I’s relationship. And we’ve made the mistake of, you know, letting people speak into our relationship that didn’t understand the road that that we had walked. And so if you’re going to compare yourself to a godly couple, do it in relationship with them and let them share maybe the difficulties they’ve had, you know, chances are, if you knew their story, and the ups and downs where they were, I think you’d be surprised. And I think the third thing, and this can be in your marriage, or personally, as well is try to get rid of the offenses in your life offenses towards other people, we live in an offended culture. And offense is a killer, it creates those roots of bitterness, and they go really deep down into your heart and soul.
36:14
Oh, that is so good. So the first one, and this is specifically about marriage is communication with your spouse. But that also, probably if that’s not if that’s pretty weak, it probably also means your communication with God is weak as well, which I love that insight. The second one is check comparison at the door, which is huge. I totally agree with that. And the last one is get rid of offenses. Yeah, that’s huge. And that is a daily habit. In fact, all of these are habit habits. You know, I’ve been reading a lot of books about habits recently. And then the it’s funny, because there’s a, there’s a book called The Power of Habit. And it basically is saying, one of the biggest things I took out of it was the most important piece of habits of changing is the belief that you can change. That’s the number one most important thing they did all these and this is all secular studies, and research is the belief that you can change. So, you know, this is the last part of this first half of the interview with Jenny, but I just want to encourage, you know, anyone who’s out there struggling with porn addiction, that first step is believing that God can redeem and, and change you completely. And here I am living proof that I don’t even struggle with it not even close. Not anymore at all. Like I’m on the computer working from home, and my job and with dy M and I had, it’s been years since I’ve had that struggle. So I just want to encourage anyone who’s listening that there is absolute freedom in this area, it can absolutely change. And I yeah, I don’t know, if you have any last thoughts on this first half of the interview, Jenny.
37:52
Just everything that you’ve said is wonderful. Um, you know, I would say just as the first step that pray and ask God to reveal who in your life could be a place that you could go to like your safe place to go. If it you know, sometimes, if it’s your church, if there’s people in your church, if it’s a professional outside, if it’s a person that’s walk that road, before God will reveal to you, if you make that a matter of prayers, that’d be a great first step.
38:23
I love so much of what was talked about on this episode. But I think one thing that you and I need to do is decide right now we are going to break the back of shame. Because just as Jenny said, It’s so true that shame is the number one tool that enemy uses to keep us away from what God wants us to do and be. And so whatever that means for you whether you have struggled in sexual addiction, and you need to tell some safe person, or whether you need to log into whole women’s ministries.com and delight your marriage.com/ 97 We’ll have all the links that we talked about today. Whatever it means for you to break the back of shame. I say do that this week. Have a conversation with a co worker about this episode, have a conversation with someone you trust that can discuss this important topic that’s dealing with maybe one four of 1/3 to even, you know, closing in on on on more than that 37% of women are dealing with this. Have a conversation break the back of shame. That’s my homework for you. And really take that step. God bless you. Thank you so much for listening. I love you. I am praying for you. Praying for your heart, your marriage, and there is hope. God bless you and we will talk next Tuesday.
39:44
Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion
We’ve all been there. You gave all the right hints. Shared all the right stories. And to your utter dismay, he apparently retained absolutely none of it. Well, today we’re breaking down the walls of confusion and hitting you hard with insights you don’t want to miss on exactly what your desire from your spouse, what he desires from you, and how to get what you desire. All of this in the context of biblically solid principles that will leave you inspired to be more like Jesus in your marriage.
If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!
PI: If your spouse’s go-to response is anger, it’s not easy. How can you guide the conversation into peace and even encouragement when it has such strong emotions? Or what if you’ve established a pattern of anger and hurt in your marriage? Well, today I have Kimberly to talk about the experience she and her husband went through around anger and how she learned that there specific ways to put your marriage back on track. What can you do to turn the tide?
How Kimberly’s marriage struck rocky times when they had to reintegrate after extended time apart.
How her husband’s anger was causing Kimberly to feel that she had done something wrong.
How Kimberly learned that relying on her husband’s emotions and approval of her made her very insecure.
The specific steps she took to regain her confidence and allow her to have control of her interaction in the marriage.
How she learned who her husband was and what he needed from her in order to end the anger she received.
What specific questions she asks herself when responding to her husband’s anger.
Scripture/Quote:
I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. Rev 3:8
Resources:
Love Factually: shares evidence about how elderly husbands often die within a year of becoming a widow but women often go on years because they have other intimate friendships
The different stages of life where we have specific expectations from our spouse and how that factors into our arguments… (So sorry DYM listener, I couldn’t find the book I had read this in, it was years ago!)
Tweetables:
It was a huge shift when I realized this anger isn’t really about me.
I found myself in a place where I was seeking all my affirmation from my husband instead of God.
We started getting better when I started backing off.
Some days were very lonely for me, but my husband needed the space for him.
Seek first to understand rather than be understood. -Stephen Covey
No one wants to be around someone they cannot feel safe with.
God is not going to return you void.
God will fight for you.
You don’t have to make your husband humble, God will do that.
Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!
Love,
Belah
—
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transcript
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah Rose.
0:19
Hi there and welcome. If this is your first time listening to the delight, your marriage podcast, I want to say welcome. This is a safe space to talk about your marriage. In the world that we live in today, it’s so often hard to really discuss what’s really going on. And today we’re talking about anger in our marriage. And it’s something that plagues a lot of us in our connection with our spouse, there’s often an underlying anger problem, or, you know, if you if you step too close this way, or gotta walk on eggshells to make sure you don’t dip into that anger that’s going on. And Kimberly Holmes, a wonderful lady that I have on today. She hails from marriage helper calm, she really shares some of the root things that were going on and how she had to deal with the anger issue in her marriage. And it’s really insightful, I think, for anyone who either is dealing with anger themselves, or dealing with a spouse that has, you know, his, his or her first response is anger. And as we talked about, there’s a lot more going on that might have absolutely nothing to do with the spouse involved. But because you’re the one closest to them, you receive a lot of that angry that that anger. So Kimberly has some really practical ways of dealing with things, things that you can do questions, you asked yourself to make sure you’re handling this anger, the best way possible, in order to have a healthy, happy, peaceful marriage, which is the goal, isn’t it? Alright, well, let’s go ahead and dive in. And I’ll talk to you on the other side.
2:08
Hey, there and welcome. You are joining to light your marriage Podcast. I’m so excited to have you. I have got wonderful Kimberly Holmes on the line from marriage. helper.com. Hi, Kimberly. Welcome. Hi,
2:20
belah thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be on with you today.
2:25
I’m excited to have you and I’m excited to hear about your life your story a little bit. So would you go ahead and start off by introducing yourself a little bit about your family, what your day to day life looks like?
2:37
Absolutely. So as you’ve already said, my name is Kimberly. My husband’s name is Rob. And we have been married for five and a half years. And it’s just the two of us for now. We have no children, we have a cat. He has a cat. So so we’re that’s us. It’s just the two of us. For now, we plan hopefully seem to have kids, but we’re just kind of letting God decide that for now. I what I do is I’m the CEO of a company called Marriage helper. And we work with marriages in crisis in the worst kinds of crisis. And we help those people save their marriages. So I absolutely love what I do. And my husband is in the army. He’s a captain. He’s a public affairs officer. And he’s going to be getting out in the in the D in December in the wintertime. And so he’s going to pursue entrepreneurship at that time, which I’m very happy for him and supportive of that. So that’s going to be a completely new kind of marriage for us. When that happens. A lot of uncharted territory. We’ve never not been chained to the army. So exciting changes coming
3:53
is exciting. Oh my gosh, and I’m sure you’ve had to deal with him. I mean, going abroad, like Yeah, where you haven’t been able to see him for months at a time. Is that right? Yeah.
4:03
Yeah, it is. One of the times I was able to go with him. So our very first duty station after getting married, we were immediately sent to Korea to South oh my gosh, for two years. And so it was marriage. Literally. We didn’t even have a honeymoon. It was. We got married one day. The next day, he finished flight school. down in Alabama. He was a pilot. And then a couple of weeks later, they came and picked us up and we moved to Korea. Wow. Yeah. So
4:36
Wow. Yeah. That’s amazing. Well, I mean, tell us a little bit about you and your husband’s personalities.
4:41
What do you all like? Yeah, that’s a great one. This is actually something I wish people would have talked more about before getting married. I didn’t realize how much personalities really had an impact on marriage. So I am totally an extrovert. I was pretty Probably more extroverted before we got married. And I’ll probably talk a little bit more about that. But my husband is introverted. Now he’s not so introverted, that he that he’s not very social or anything like that he is he’s great in social social situations, you can carry on a conversation with him super easy. But he just hits a limit after like an hour or two of being around. And he’s like, That’s it, we got to go now. And, and so that that’s in that way, that’s kind of how we are I’m definitely more of an open book kind of person, his family grew up being a lot more private, keeping things more like that. So there’s definitely definitely differences that we have experienced in our personalities. I’m a big type a person, huge, huge, tiny, and he he drives me crazy, that he can just wait procrastinate on something so long, and still get it done. Just Well, my gosh, I would have done it, if I would have taken weeks to do that. Wait, wait, wow.
6:10
Yeah. Well, I think it’s very telling and true that we don’t think about personalities very often. prior to marriage. I mean, we focus, especially as a society, we focus so much on the love and the feelings that I mean, unless you really have some wise, mature mentorship and your young wife that you probably aren’t thinking about, are we compatible? You know, do our personalities complement each other and that kind of thing. And now after marriage, what I obviously and your ministry, as well really focuses on is how we can use our personalities to complement each other, even if, you know, maybe all the profiles say that they’re not the best fit or whatever, we can still figure out what are your strengths? What are my strengths? How do these fit together? Anyway? But no, I like that that insight. But would you go ahead and share like a scripture or a quote that has meant a lot to you over the years or even recently, just to kick us off?
7:07
Yeah, I will. And this is a really strange when I was going over which one because there’s been so many, but I feel it’s appropriate to share this one. So I’ve never done this before. But this past year, on my birthday, which is in November, I just really strongly just felt I kept feeling like I needed a blessing for my for this next year of my life. Because I knew a lot of changes were going to be happening. There were a lot of unknowns at that time. With my with my husband’s job if he was going to get out all those kinds of things. And yeah, I was feeling very defeated in a lot of areas too. And so a lot of things were going on with me and I just, I just kept praying God I need, I need a blessing, something that can guide this next year for me, and I ended up getting it actually I was at a women’s small group. And in the the leader, she said I didn’t I she said I didn’t specify which of these little scripture cards that someone from India had handmade, they’re absolutely beautiful. She said, I didn’t specify who I was going to give it to. So I just threw them all in here. And I just, you know, I’m praying that all of you just get the one that’s meant for you. And so I’d never heard this verse before. I mean, I’m sure I had, but I never had took it this way. But it’s actually revelations three, eight, and it says, See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. And I at that moment, it was like this is an answer. This is my blessing. I just knew this is what God wants me to be focusing on over this next year, God has placed so many open doors in front of me and there’s no enemy, no weapon that can be formed against them. There’s no way that’s going to that it’s going to be shut unless God shuts them. And so, you know, all of my fears, all of my anxieties about things, just so calm, so calm, and I have it written in many places throughout my house, just as a constant reminder of that God has a plan, and that this year is going to be a fruition of that plan. In some ways, probably not the whole thing, but I’m excited for it. Mm hmm.
9:18
No, that’s very cool. And I love how important it is for each of us to take Scripture at its word, and use it to apply to our own lives. Like, you know, I’ve developed a habit that every morning I’ll memorize a scripture and so just one small scripture and then I try to recount the last week scriptures that I’ve memorized and, and and it’s so important to pray through those scriptures and and attach them to what we’re going through. Because that is exactly what God says he’s the God of hope. And so we need to attach ourselves to these scriptures that will give us hope, because you know, entreprise. Worship, as you know, my own life can attest that it’s a hard road, whatever you’re going through, whether it’s job difficulties or financial, you know, financial difficulties, health difficulties, all these things are difficult. So we have got to say that No, the one thing that is not changing is Jesus Christ. And I can attach myself to him daily. So I really love that you said, This Scripture has just guided you and given you that hope, in this next year. And so I think, as a discipline, anyone who’s listening can say, Yes, I’m going to find one little scripture that will give me hope, and just keep going with that. So awesome point. All right. Well, I’d love for you to tell us a story of maybe a difficult season in your marriage, and how you overcame it.
10:52
Absolutely, absolutely. So this was, even this morning, my husband and I were kind of talking about this. Because I said, you know, because as I said before, our personalities are very different. I’m an open book, and he parts of him or he’s like, I don’t, I don’t know if I want to talk to people to know that. So this morning, I was like, let me know what exactly right you want me to share? Because I don’t want any I’m always gonna be protective of my husband, even though I would just, I’m an open book. But the biggest, the biggest struggle that that we have had to encounter in our marriage. And I won’t go I’ll go into as many specifics and details as I can. But yeah, we were going through a lot of change. I mean, we we had been a part this is after we left Korea, and we ended up being separated for seven months, because he got stuck there. And I, gosh, I had already come back. So we ended up being apart for some months. And we didn’t know we were going to be I think that we didn’t have any preparation. So this was back in like, 2012 ish timeframe. And so we he got, you know, he came back and that reintegration period for, for military spouses, or any any kind of marriage where the either spouse travels for long periods of time. I honestly, I will say this every time it’s not the being a part. That’s the hardest, it’s hard. But it’s the reintegration, at least for us, that is so difficult, because you have to learn to live together all over again. And for us, that was already hard when we when we got married, just trying to figure out how to live together. And I took this as a total side note, but I totally see why it’s not good to live together before marriage, because if I wasn’t married, my husband and I like if we weren’t married, when we started living together, it would have been so easy some days to just say this isn’t worth it, like I, you know, let’s cut ties now cut our losses. But, you know, we didn’t thank God and we learned how to and it’s been amazing since then. But every time we’re apart, we have to kind of go through that all over again. And so when we were apart for that seven month stint, and and he returned that reintegration period, we were moving in the middle of it, we were he was starting a new school for work and there was so much stress going on in his life and in my life and and there was a lot of anger he he was dealing really specifically with with a lot of anger and I didn’t know how to handle it. And so my reactions to him did not make anything better. It made everything worse. I would say I’m a fighter, I’m a I’m a confrontational person, I want to address things and get them over with I’m just that kind of person. And yeah, so when I would try to do that, you know, it would just it made over it festered for many months and it just culminated into this toxic environment a ver I didn’t want to be neither of us really wanted to be at home neither of us really wanted to be around each other because we had just made it bad. And we so it at its worst it was it was pretty bad. I mean, we never we never divorced or we never, you know legally separated or anything like that. But the trials that we went through were were really hard and there were some times when we wondered is you know what is going to happen next and so we
14:37
and it kind of lasted things, things kind of got better. We never really we still never really talked about it or just an issue. But there came a point when I realized a lot of this anger that he is dealing with. And by there came a point. I mean, like after a couple of years of dealing with this. There came a point where I was like you know what, I think this anger doesn’t really have to do with me when it originally Started at its very core. It’s not me and I had been. So personally, and just so what am I doing wrong? What is What can I do to make it better, so I would keep pushing myself on him. And I would try, I’d keep trying to pull stuff out of him. And I don’t even think he really knew either. There was just, there was just a lot of things happening. And so, there there finally came that point where I said, I’ve just got to let go of this. And one of the things that had happened during those couple of years is I had really lost focus on God. I mean, I was always a Christian, we always went to church, you know, yeah, we always played that role. But I was seeking all of my affirm of affirmations and all of my contentment from the way that my husband would react to me or the way my husband would treat me. And I had lost where that used to be God, for me, it used you know, before I was married, it was God I would go to it was God that would give me that. And I had completely abandon that. And so I started getting back into that I started waking up before my husband, 430 or 5am, just so that I could study the Bible. And just so that I could pray over him. And every day, I would have to make, oh, I forgot about this. Every day, I would write down all the things I loved about my husband. And some days were much harder than others. And some days it was it took everything within me to do not hate doing it. But I just made it a point that I was going to focus on his good qualities. And when he was going through a hard time, I was just going to be that safe place for him. And if he ever had anything difficult to talk to me about I would all I would never chastise him about ways that he treated me I would never bring up anything negative, I would always just say, I’m so glad. You know, I’m so glad you’re able to talk about that. Like, let’s work through this. I’m here for you. And so, so we started kind of doing that. And it helped, there was still I still knew that there was kind of some other stuff going on. And I just I pray I started praying for my husband, just so much because i i There was a heart change that there was a negative heart change that had happened in both of us. And there was a positive heart change that was still needing to happen in both of us. And I could see it started happening with me. And so I just kept praying for him and there. And it. I won’t go into the specifics of it. Yeah, sure. But they’re they’re just very much came a day where a lot of things were were talked about. And it was and we were able to really get down to the bottom of a lot of things. And it was from that day forward. And that was just nine months ago. And from that day forward, you could just tell in our relationship walls had come down. And we we have a stronger relationship. Now we’re able to deal with conflict, so much better. All of those things, but it all started with me just backing off. And I think that was the hardest thing for me to do. Because I’m such a people person, I’m such a that kind of person who wants attention. Gosh, I love attention. Very much that person. So I hear that. Yeah. And these were very lonely. And I had to and it’s not because of anything my husband was was doing wrong. It was just what he needed was he needed that space for him because of his personality because of his introversion. And so I had to give him that space. And I really had to start finding other things to not like, like, relationships with other women friendships, getting in small groups, finding mentors, focusing on Hobbies, doing things like that, where I wasn’t just putting so much pressure on my husband to make me happy. Hmm,
19:01
I love this. So I want to kind of dial back into some of the things you said, which I think is wonderful. The first one is that you made it very clear that you’re very protective of your husband. And I think that is so wise. So anyone listening, you know, my husband sounds similar to yours, and that he’s a very private person. He doesn’t even put his own picture on Facebook. Like he just is very private, private. Yeah. He just I mean, he doesn’t mind if I tag him in some things, but he just prefers to keep things you know, to himself. But it’s interesting, actually, I was just reading a study about men and women how they process things differently or, and it was kind of talking about, let’s see, I guess it was on a podcast anyway. I’ll link it up. It’s a good it’s a good podcast. I’ll link it up because it’s talking about different studies that’s done. I think the book was called Love factually. But anyway. Husband and wives when they have lived their lives together, and at the end into their life, elderly people or later in life, I guess, when one of the spouses die, usually what happens is the wife, if let’s say the husband dies, the wife will often continue on years afterwards, because she’s built close connections to lots of different people like her, her children or her, you know, friends at the bridge club or whatever her girlfriends whatever. And for men, what the statistics are showing is that when the wife dies, usually the husband will die within a year. Because that’s his closest connection. That’s his closest relationship. And I think it’s interesting that even if we see our husbands as being ones that are kind of put by themselves and that kind of thing. Often what statistics show is that usually the husband is the most intimate, emotionally speaking with their wife, and pretty much no one else. And so if you think about your own marriage, regardless of what’s going on, and whether it’s, you know, really good or really not right now, I just think that’s kind of encouraging that that space that you have between the two of you is sacred, it’s very, very vital for the health of your husband just thinking about in his shoes, much less your own, but just as a safe space. So I really like how, and you’re talking about this, this season that you went through how you had to really be responsive to what he was going through. And I think, you know, just this theme of anger. For husbands, a lot of women don’t know what to do with the anger of their husbands. I have had times where I just don’t know what to do, because I’m like, we need to get to the bottom of this. And right now. Yeah, and, yeah, and I think, um, you know, anger is hard, because for men, a lot of them are, for the most part in our society, they’re socialized to express their feelings through anger, like, if they’re upset, the only appropriate manly responses to get angry is to punch something is to go yell, or do you know what
22:05
I mean? I do, because they don’t cry. I mean, some do. Yeah. But typically men, they’re not going to sit there and cry like girls do. Right? So yeah, I totally get what you’re saying. Absolutely.
22:16
And it’s funny, because studies show that actually tears, it’s so funny, this tear ducts in your eyes, something about when you cry, and actually releases chemicals in your brain that like, alleviates a lot of pressure. And isn’t that it’s true. I have a male, one of the lead pastors at my church, we were talking about, and he’s a crier, he likes me. He just embraces that aspect. Yeah, and it’s so healthy, because you need ways of releasing the pressure. But yeah, so to go kind of back to what you’re saying, with a lot of men, the anger is, is just their go to they don’t know how to deal with what they’re what’s happening to them. And so anger is the way they respond to it. So my question in all of that is when you started to see this anger coming out, and please just share what you’re comfortable sharing. But when you started to see that, how were you like, what would be your initial reaction? And how did you sort through that? And,
23:18
yeah, I would get defensive immediately. So it didn’t matter what he was angry at, you know, he could have been angry, and he could have been angry about something that he was just telling me about that happened. But you know, though, and this is with anyone, but when it when I’m talking to anyone, and their tone of voice changes towards me, and they are there, the way they talk, like they’re getting louder when they talk or different things like that. I just start taking it as I feel like I need to get in a defensive kind of posture now. And even if they’re not attacking me, I feel I’m really good at playing devil’s advocate. So I like I defend the opposite side. And I’ve kind of had to stop doing that as much as I’m just I hear what you’re saying. Yeah, it’s kind of my nature to just fight. That’s weird. Like, that sounds really terrible. But it is I’m very and so when, when I would get defensive and fight, even if it was something stupid, even if it was something I didn’t really care about at all, or have any, you know, pig in the fight with it didn’t matter. Maybe it’s dog in a fight,
24:30
whatever. Either one pigs or dogs
24:34
in the fight, they’re fighting, right? Yeah, so I would, I would just get very defensive and then I would take things very personally, or read into things that he didn’t actually say and interpret them in my way of thinking not in the way he said them.
24:56
Yeah, I think that’s huge. Well, okay, so the double adequate thing, I think is a very strong temptation for any of us to get into when we’re at like odds with someone else. So regardless of what it is, it’s almost like, Well, you didn’t do this and this and this, or here’s the holes in your argument. Whereas, is that promoting peace? Is that bringing the ball forward to where you want it to go? Like, are you? Are you helping your situation? Are you moving towards your goal? Or are you just like, clawing at each other? Because I get that temptation to it’s huge. It’s huge when you start getting into this defensive mode. So then how, how does a wife when she feels her defenses go up? And maybe we can clarify what would you say is defensiveness.
25:42
Okay, perfect. So this, this still happens with my husband, I really don’t think he mind me sharing this is very common. Sure, sure. That he so if he’ll say something, something like, I am not going to move the couch right? Now, this is very fitting because we’ve been moving furniture. So if he says, I’m not gonna move the couch right? Now, I might, he’s just saying, I’m not gonna move it right now, I might here, I really don’t want to move the couch at all. So go ahead and move it yourself. Like that’s, this is what goes on in my mind. So I’m like, Okay, since he doesn’t want to do now, I’ll go ahead and do it. So it’ll be over with, I’ll just take matters in my own hands, all that kind of stuff, going back to that type A personality. So then I get defensive. So even even make two things might happen. I might say to him, really, you can’t just help me move it right now. And get defensive and try to protect, you know, I want to I still want to feel important. I don’t want to feel like things are shrugged off on me. So I’m going to be defensive in that way. Or I could not say anything, move at myself, and just act really terrible the rest of the day. So if he tries to talk to me about something else later than I respond, like, you know, if he says, What do you want for dinner? And I say, I don’t care, you know, and he’s like, wait, what’s wrong? And to me, I’m still mad about the couch, and it’s carrying on into every other conversation. that specific question didn’t happen. But yeah. But yeah, I am like that. This, a lot of this is about me, like the way that I respond to things, you know, if I, so in either of those situations, here’s what happens. When I respond either those two ways, he will inevitably it creates a cycle where he’s like, I didn’t say, I wouldn’t help you move it in, then he gets defensive back, and it just creates this whole thing. And then we end up fighting, and then it ends up, you know, what could have been a great, nice dinner together, and, you know, a relaxing evening, could turn into something just where we have an all out fight, and it’s about something stupid, and it just ruins the evening, and which will inevitably make the next day, a little Tinder to walk around. And you’re trying to figure out, you know, are they still mad? And so?
28:02
Yes, absolutely, yeah. Well, and I think it’s very easy to go that direction, especially, especially if we have some baggage in that area. Maybe it reminds us of our father, or just ways that we’ve kind of been hurt in the past, or even ways that they’ve hurt us in the past. It’s easy to, to take on that and say, well, he doesn’t want to help me, well, he’s not going to support me when we have kids. And well, he’s not going to be a good father. And well, I married the wrong guy. I mean, it’s so easy to, to put this and, and really, without knowing it, a lot of times, that’s what our unconscious is looking at. It’s funny, if you think about, I’ll try to find this book that I’ll link in the show notes. But it’s basically talking about the different stages of a woman’s life and what she’s looking for in a partner. Because when we’re younger, we’re looking for the bad boy that kind of gives us excitement and adventure. But then a little older, we’re looking for someone who’s going to be a good father, and then a little older than that we’re looking for someone who’s going to be responsible and support us in our old age. And it’s just, we don’t realize, but these expectations are surrounding us. While we’re having communications with our husbands all the time, that we’re like, Well, you know, this small little microcosm of an experience means that you are not going to be able to x and I think as wives and I just encourage anyone listening. If you think about the most recent argument that you had with your husband, what were your expectations? Why did it go to that next level? Why did you get defensive? I think one huge in the in the why under there Right? Is your expectation. How did you want it to go? What was what he said triggering to you? Why did that matter to you so much, why couldn’t you just let it go? You know, I think those are huge questions, but one quote that I want to share from one of my favorite books is called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. That was a book that I read years ago that just kind of put me on course, isn’t it wonderful?
30:08
Yeah, absolutely.
30:11
Well, one thing it shares is seek first to understand, rather than to be understood. And the reason I think that’s poignant to what you’re saying, Kimberly, is because when we have these instances where we are dealing with anger, something you brought up, was you started to realize what is going on for your husband, when he gets angry, and you trying to understand why he’s getting angry, instead of saying, thinking about your response. So you’re first supposed to be seeking first to understand rather than to be understood. So when he’s getting angry, if that goes, your your mind is to try to understand what’s going on. So that kind of leads me to my next question, how did you get to this place of understanding where your husband was coming from?
31:04
You know, part of it was I had, I couldn’t overanalyze it as well. So there comes to there comes a point where if I’m trying to focus on why he’s angry, and I let it, you know, I did this. I know other women who do this all the time, they just ruminate on it all day long. And they just, you know, keep thinking, Well, what about this? What about that? Was it this? Was it that? And there’s kind of just, you know, two basic questions I would ask. The first one was, Did I did I honestly do something like looking at it from a unbiased position? Did I honestly do something that could have that could have come off? Is being rude or anything like that, that might have made him angry? And if my answer to that was no, then I wasn’t going to think about it anymore. And then the second part is, is there anything else that might be going on in his life, that could be seeking it seeping in to all to how he’s reacting at home? Or, you know, wherever? And typically, that’s where I find typically, that’s where yeses, you know, just because I if something were, just because something might not affect me, if it were going on in my life doesn’t mean that it doesn’t affect my husband, if it’s going on in his life, you know, his stresses are different than my stresses I, I stress out so much about, you know, work or writing, getting articles written, you know, you understand these things like you upload your podcast, if it were me, I’d be like, Oh, I’m stressed out, I have to get this in by a certain time. So the iTunes can make it live stuff. Yeah. And that would stress me out, where is he, he wouldn’t get stressed about that. But He gets stressed out about different stuff that doesn’t stress me out. And so I really just had to, I would kind of let those two questions guide it. And once I figured out, you know, it’s probably something external, then I just said to myself, Okay, you know, I can’t control what’s going on in his life. And I can’t make him talk about it either. So the only thing I can do, and I can’t and what would make it all worse is if I chastised him, saying, you’re really acting terrible, or no, you should really do this differently. Because that’s just no one wants that no one wants to be around a person that they that they can’t feel safe with when they’re going through a hard time or when they’re having a hard day. So I’ve really harsh like, I so understand how a marriage relationship is like that between Jesus and us. Because, as we always say, is I always say about the people we work with when when helping them save their marriage. You know, when you’re wanting to save your marriage, or when you’re wanting to communicate better in your marriage, when you’re wanting to do anything in your marriage, you’re going to have to do things that you don’t want to do, you’re going to have to do things that aren’t first nature to you, you’re going to have to do things that aren’t that that seem like you are giving way more than you’re getting. But that’s exactly what Jesus does for us. So what I tried to do and I did it well sometimes and other times I still struggle with it, but you know, I would just when he would come home or when he’d be you know in a bad mood if something had happened and I would just hey, what can I do for you? You know, do you need time alone if you need to like find and if he needs time alone I don’t I don’t push I don’t I just let him have that. Or you know, can I go can I go get you something just opposite reaction of the anger just very I’m here for you. You know, I love you no matter what. And whatever I can do for you. That’s what I want to do and just not trying to. There’s it I keep thinking get even it’s not getting even but I think so many times people just want to tell their husband, or tell their wife exactly what they’re doing wrong so that they can change it. And I’ve found that for us, I would do that too at the beginning, but now I just focus on what I love that he does. And I say, Hey, thank you, you know, I really appreciate that you did that. Or if we really need to talk about something, you know, I’ll say, hey, you know, next time, would you consider doing it this way? Because I think that would be way better. And so I try to not let anything come that I say, now come off as me attacking him or anything that would make him feel like I was pressuring him to do something a different way. I really just had to change the way that I communicate with him.
35:45
Mm hmm. Yeah, that’s really good. And I like that you talked about Okay, so he’s angry. Let’s think about two questions. So the two questions you said is, did I honestly do something that could have made him angry? And number two, could there be anything else going on that could be seeping in. And both of those I think, are really good. And especially, you know, I sound sounds like Kimberly, you and I have a lot of like, where, where we want to sort through what’s happening and deal with it together. Whereas it sounds like you opted for a much more mature approach to say, okay, he’s angry, and I can’t change him. And I can only change myself, I can only control what’s going on in my life, what I can do. And so when you talked about how you changed your habits around where you are waking up at 530, in the morning, is that
36:38
you said 430 to five? Yeah, we’re 35
36:41
Amazing to make sure that you had your head on straight that you were in the word that you were praying. I mean, that’s the kind of commitment we need to be having to our marriages that it takes to to get this thing right the right way on track. But I’ve also heard people say it really only takes one. And if one person is committing to live like Jesus, because Jesus, just as you said, he was proactive before we even I mean, honestly, were born like he, he but he for knew our sin. And He went forward and went to the cross and serves us daily and is gently guiding us daily, before we even attempted to love him before we even attempted to respond. And, yeah, I just love that that was your point that Jesus does for us. Before we do anything, he went first. And so I think, you know, your point is to be the one that’s going first in your marriage and responding in a generous spirit. What can I do for you? How can I make your life easier? How can I support you. And the good news is that a lot of times, it’s going to turn full circle. And you get to a spot in your marriage where the anger has been sorted through, he’s had the space to sort through it himself. You know, a lot of times, I know, something that’s really been helpful for me is that even in the times that I’ve treated my husband badly, if he still goes forward and supports me and loves me in ways that I don’t deserve, it actually motivates me to get to the bottom of why I was feeling that way. And it motivates me to change. If he instead is to respond in anger, and you know, hatefulness, and that kind of thing, it makes me resistant, it makes me try to justify my behavior, even though my behavior was horrible. But because I’m defensive, I’m trying to say No, I’m okay, XY and Z, I did all these things, instead of just, you know, I think we need to give our husbands the space to really save face, almost like give your husband the space to change, but to remain to keep their dignity intact. It it doesn’t feel good, no one likes to feel that they, you know, have to be a dog with their tail between their legs and all that stuff you don’t want. You know, you want to give your husband the space to change with dignity to remain that way and, and God will deal with him, God will make him humble, you don’t have to do that. That’s not your job. That
39:19
is so true one that kept during the time when I was seeking God. You know, when some of the things were just really hard to go through. The thing that kept coming into my mind is, God will fight for you. And I saw that over and over just how God would protect me when I needed it. God would fight for me when I needed it. I didn’t have to do it. God did it like and I think that so just a breath of fresh air to just know who you are his daughter you He loves you. He wants the best for you and he is going to fight for you and if you doing the right things and you’re walking in line with him. Then, you know, one of the instance we were, you know, we work marriages in crisis and marriage really are on the brink of divorce. So many times people say, but what if I do all of it, and we still divorce and we still don’t make it. And the one thing I keep saying to them is, God is not going to return you void. If it’s not your marriage that can be resolved, which we’ve seen marriages saved, even after divorce. So we absolutely still advocate to still stand if that’s what they choose to do. But you know, we keep saying, if you have done everything, right, and if you have honored God in everything that you stood to do, God will not return it void. It says it so many times in the Scripture, so many times in the scripture, and he will, he will fight for you. He will protect you, he will, he will give back to you what was lost in some way.
40:56
I think that’s exactly right. When you’re dealing with a really difficult thing, in your marriage, anger, whether it’s you being the angry person, or receiving that God wants you to take the first step, regardless of how effective you think it’s going to be. That’s what he asks you to do. To be like Jesus to take that first step and do what you can do. So I just encourage you to spend a moment in prayer. How can you respond more grace filled more proactively more like Jesus to your spouse. And that’s your homework hikes. I’m excited to share with you the second half of this wonderful interview with Kimberly, she’s got some awesome discussion about goals and getting people aligned on the same page with you and your husband. That’s going to come out next Tuesday. So please come back for that. Otherwise, God bless you. I’m praying for you praying for your marriage and love you. Thank you for tuning in today. And we’ll talk more soon. Bye.
42:07
Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion
Though none of us are promised tomorrow, there is so much pain in loss. And when we or someone we love goes through grief it can be so hard to know how to relate. 85% of marriages break apart because of some kind of trauma. Today we hear from Penny who bravely shares her experiences that have helped her to minister to so many hurting, because of what she went through. I encourage you to listen to hear how healing and grace can be part of your story of grief.
I have set the Lord always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken. Psalm 16:8
When David and his men came to the city, behold, it was burned with fire, and their wives and their sons and their daughters had been taken captive. Then David and the people who were with him lifted their voices and wept until there was no strength in them to weep. 1 Samuel 30:3-4
You’ll Discover:
That Penny and her husband were divorced and then got remarried to each other.
How growing in emotional intimacy has to be intentional and how God will partner with you in that.
How Penny experienced tragedy when she got the call that her brother had taken his life.
How the pain of grief threatened to undermine all they worked to build in their marriage.
How most marriages don’t survive grief (85%), but the Bragg’s study of it made all the difference.
How to respond to someone else in grief.
How to heal through grief and how to find the support you need.
If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!
Transcript
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.
0:19
I think one of the biggest lessons God teaches us on a daily basis if we let him is empathy. There are so many people around you day in and day out that are struggling with significant things. And for us to stand in that place with empathy. With Me too, with, I want to hear what you’re going through, I want to care about you like Jesus cares about me. Today is a powerful story. First of all, Penny Bragg who’s just an amazing woman, you can tell just by listening. She married a man got divorced, a long time later got remarried to that same man. And then they went through a real tragedy in their lives. And Penny shares what her journey looked like dealing with intense grief. And if you have never gone through grief, I think this is an opportunity to hear what what it sounds like, what it is like, and I think it also gives you this opportunity to see that there’s hope. There’s hope for marriages, there’s hope for relationships, whether you’re the person that’s experiencing the grief, you are the person that’s supporting someone else who has experienced grief. Or, you know, somewhere in between, we also talk about something significant suicide, and it’s just affected so many people, and whether you know, someone that took their life, or whether you’ve contemplated it yourself, I just want to encourage you that this is a safe space to listen in to hear what God might want to tell you through this message. I share something about my own life that one of the most difficult things I’ve gone through and I’ll share a little bit more at the end. But God might have some real important insights he wants you to glean today, some empathy, some hope, some encouragement. I’m praying that this will really impact you. And bless your marriage. Bless your heart. Bless your relationship with the Lord. Alright, let’s go ahead and listen in.
2:52
Hi, there, this is belah rose, thank you so much for listening today. I’m really excited to have penny a Bragg with us at inverse ministries.org. And I think she’s got an amazing story to share. And I’m really excited to get into that. So welcome, Penny, how are you? Thanks, fella doing really well. Thanks for having me on the show. Absolutely. I’m really glad to have you. We were just talking about you’re also a radio host on a broadcast. So you know just how this I do. I do. And I think it’s I don’t know, it’s either or it’s fun to be on both sides of the microphone. Let’s put it that way. It’s nice. Yeah. No, it is. It really is. Very cool. Well, would you be willing to introduce yourself a little bit about your family and a little bit about your day to day life? Absolutely. So I am actually a California native. I was born and raised in the San Francisco Bay Area, and relocated to Florida with my husband, Clint in 2007. We had been praying over a map of the United States and asking God, you know, because a lot of our marriage work was happening in the east and long story short, he relocated us to the Daytona Beach area. And so our day to day lives kind of interesting has changed a lot. We are missionaries, we are marriage missionary. So we’re on the road a ton until just a few years ago, and we opened a ministry center so that we have a place where we can serve locally when we’re not on the road. So our day to day includes that includes a radio show, working on our second book right now and we do not have kids in our home. So that does allow some flexibility, although we have been through the challenges of parenting and even step parenting. So yeah, so that’s kind of where God has us right now just serving him. You know, as he leads so the Ministry Center is kind of a new thing. We’re still getting used to that in our daily lives.
4:54
Hmm. Oh, that’s really cool. That’s that sounds like yeah, just amazing. I’m excited to get more into what you all do? Well, would
5:01
you share a little bit about you and Clints personalities? Absolutely. The best way I can say it is that Clint is a proverb. And I am a psalm is the best way that I can explain. Like, yeah, he is very much black and white. If then he actually loves the book of Proverbs, I think that really resonates with his heart and Psalms is my favorite book, you know, just, I can go from zero to 60 in just one sentence. And so I think that best describes he loves patterns and models. And you know, you give him a picture and he can recreate or create things. He’s very linear. And I’m not linear at all. I love to fly by the seat of my pants be thrown into the fire. And he does not so much like that. So it’s a little insight into us. That is so funny. Yeah, I, I definitely hear that. That’s really good. I think we can a lot of us can relate to the being a psalm because you’re at one moment. You know, the Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want. And then shortly thereafter, you’re like, Oh, my enemies are surrounding. forsaken me God. Yeah, that’s wild. Yeah, that’s good. As we’re getting started, this whole podcast and interview is really about inspiring and empowering wives to live wholehearted intimacy in their marriages. So is there a scripture or a quote that has meant a lot to you over the years that you could share with us? You know, there are several Bella. But most recently, from Psalm 16, verse eight, it says, I have set the Lord always before me, because he is at my right hand, and I will not be shaken. And that might sound like a strange verse to claim over intimacy or your marriage. But really, these are troubled times. And I know that we have hit a lot of warfare and opposition and struggles in our extended family. And so I’ve really been cleaned to that verse, feeling like every aspect of our marriage can be shaken at a moment’s notice just the nature of our world. And so, for me each morning, when I read and recite and rewrite that verse, I’m just really literally setting the Lord, you know, Lord, you go before me, you know, what our marriage is going to encounter today. So if I set you before me that I’ve got that stability that I need, when all around me is shaking, Mm hmm. And that’s a very proactive, proactive measure to take that I set the Lord before me. You know, that’s an action that’s not just willy nilly feeling our way through life or feeling our way through that day or our marriage. I set the Lord always before me, I love Yeah, it’s almost kinesthetic, like you can, you can take something, think about something that’s set before you and it’s in your vision. It’s in your pathway. You’re interacting with it. So I really tried to get visual and just say, Okay, God, you know, before I get to this, and this and this, I’m setting you there to go through that with me. Mm hmm. Yep. That’s really good. I love that. Well, I’m interested in hearing about your marriage about a struggle or a season that was difficult for you all, and kind of what happened in that in that season?
8:16
Absolutely. I’ll call and take a two pronged approach to that. First of all, our marriage is a bit unique in that we’ve been married to each other twice. So when we’re in a joking mood, we say that once just wasn’t enough, so we had to, had to do it again. But seriously, I mean, we were the biggest marriage failure ever. We were married as Christians, but had no clue how to do marriage. God’s way both had wounds from our past. So we actually did not even make it to our second anniversary, blew apart, I left the marriage, I was the one that took more of the stand to just walk away and, and then after an 11 year gap, and I mean gap, like we had not seen each other talk to each other, no contact whatsoever. After that 11 year gap, God miraculously began to reconcile and restore us. So we’ve been remarried to each other now for almost 14 years. So that’s kind of our background, we come at everything, just as messengers of reconciliation and restoration. So any maybe wife who might be tuned in who thinks that you know what, this is too hard for God to reconcile and restore, it really isn’t because we had it all we had sexual stuff to work through and all that and so then being married, you know, you asked about recent trials or seasons, just marriage in general for us has been like, we have to learn how to do this, you know, how do we really bond physically and in our intimate relationship, and then so we’ve worked through all that, you know, pretty, pretty hard for many years. And then in 2011, just when our marriage or you know, really hit what I’d say more of that stride, you know, like, Okay, we’ve been doing this for 10 years now and hit that stride, we had a tragedy in our family. very tragic loss, my younger brother. And it was just the nature of it was traumatic, it was unexpected, you know, he took his own life. And so we had never encountered anything like that in our marriage to grieve differently, to learn how to suffer together. So that has probably been the biggest, I guess, season of difficulty was just how do we, how do we do tragedy? You know, wow. Yeah. So I just have so many questions. So when you affirm I mean, it’s just just a wild story that first of all, you’re married for that year, and then broke apart from there. Can you tell us a little bit about what that initial meant? You know, a divorce happened, like, why did that happen? Oh, really. I mean, I know, we both can look back and see that we had a part in it. We never built any any emotional intimacy in the marriage, which makes it easier to disconnect. But I was actually, I was kind of in a faith crisis. I was young in my faith. And we had gone on a mission trip together. And it was the first time I had ever seen or come face to face with that question of suffering. Like, why does God allow we were over in Haiti, and we saw suffering. And I came back from that, and Clint was all like, raring to go, and I was like, Wait a second, I am in a crisis of faith here, you know. And so we just started one division after another. And it was the perfect scenario, I let someone else in emotionally in a place where I hadn’t let anyone else in. And so I took that step outside of our marriage, and, you know, packed a few things in the suitcase, and roll that out our front door so well. And then, you know, Clint, can see now his part, he may not have been unfaithful, but he had a real John Wayne kind of personality. Suck it up, you know, yeah, way of dealing with women. And he goes, I didn’t know how to, you know, build intimacy with you. Yeah, now we can look back and see that it’s hindsight, you know? Yeah, well, that’s injured. I mean, when a husband does respond that way, I mean, the marriage can feel so lonely, you just feel so separate and isolated. And the space where you’re supposed to have this amazing bond is like, seems like a desert. And that
12:43
does and, you know, no one tells you before you get married, that all your childhood wounds and gunk, and all that is gonna come up right in the middle of your marriage. And we didn’t know what to do with any of that we had kept things that happened to us as kids, we had kept those from one another. So just kind of, we kind of had a tough exterior both of us and didn’t want to expose the stuff that had happened to us. So yeah, it was really the perfect scenario for walls to be erected. And they were definitely erected. So much so that I filed for divorce. I mean, I was once I took that step, I felt like I had committed the unforgivable sin and in my relationship with God to I felt like a failure. Just big huge failure. Yeah, I mean, it’s just happens to all of us when we kind of know the direction we should be going in. And then we kind of step outside of that. And then it’s just like, it feels so much harder to get back in line with God’s will, because we intentionally moved away from it kind of one thing I kind of want to point out is the building emotional intimacy. I love that you said the word building, because it’s not something that you just turn off and on, right, oh, it takes so much time and effort and intentional work, you know, we have the benefit the second time around of learning from our mistakes, and saying, like, wow, we’re really going to have to work with God to build this thing called emotional intimacy. It’s not just going to happen, because, you know, we’re both Christians or something. Yes, you know, we’re going to have to work at it. And that means finding out where those wounded places are. And, you know, just kind of exposing some of those things that we didn’t really want to talk about the first time around. So yeah, it takes it takes work, but it’s doable. That’s the thing is once you realize that, oh, you know, we’re not alone in this. There’s other people that you don’t have the same kind of questions or maybe even failures that we have. And we just we really took the bull by the horns Bella, we just the second time around when we realize God had given us a second chance. I remember we hadn’t been remarried that long and we were standing in the kitchen, and we had a little disagreement about something and I think the fear of messing it up, again, kind of hidden. Let’s get before God and let him have his way this time. So that was a huge turning point for us of saying, Lord, you know, we have no guarantee that we’re going to make it the second time around. So show us all the things that we need to, you know, work on it. Trust was one and intimacy was the I mean, those are just two, those were just two but trust and intimacy are huge. Yes, yes. Well, so when you had this time apart, 11 years is not a short time. That’s a long time.
15:37
Yeah, what kind of happened in that in that space? Well, when we, we realized that, you know, the marriage was over, we went our separate ways. And we were very cold. I especially, I mean, I remember Bella, if he showed up, Clint showed up at my work one day, to try one last time to reconcile with me, and I was so cold hearted, I took my wedding ring off, and I threw it across the room at him. And he laughed, he you know, he left. And so after we had parted ways, because things ended like that. We had no contact, there was no Internet, then either. So it’s not like what people do nowadays, and Facebook and texting each other and all that. So that 11 year gap, what we didn’t know is that we both wandered from God, we both tried life on our own. And we both bottomed out, believe it or not about the same time about eight years after our divorce. We both hit the bottom of the bottom, except neither one of us do. The other one was hitting it, you know, wow, come to find out Clint had actually moved away from California, he was living in Florida. So he’s about 3000 miles away. But our lives just paralleled he had become a teacher, I had become a teacher. I mean, things like that, that were just unbelievable. So He reconciled his relationship with God. I did the same thing. And then only after God had met us both. And we had repented and really gotten a hold of who Jesus was becoming whole in Christ. All the things that we didn’t know to do the first time around. Only then it’s kind of funny. I, I had worked through all my issues or a lot of my issues. And God said, you know, there’s one big fat thing that you have not dealt with. And that is that you need to apologize and find Clint and apologize. There was no Yeah, I was like really, God no, really have to do that. So I said, you know, well, if I find him, all right, a letter if you find him and God was like, yeah, that’s kind of funny, because now the internet was up. And everybody was finding people on free people search websites. So it was 2000, winter of 2002. And I found him on the internet. He was living in Florida. And I wrote up the most honest letter that I had ever written. I apologize, I admitted, my unfaithfulness. And I knew he had probably gone on and been successful. And I all I wanted to do was give him what he deserved, which was an apology, admitting what I had done. And then just I was ready for the closure part, just closure. So there was no intent to reconcile. I was actually pretty scared that he was going to, like, blast me off the face of the earth. I mean, rightly so I left pretty, pretty destructive way. So I mailed the letter, and I thought that was I was done. I was closure, no closure. Hmm. So yeah, that was not God’s plan. Yeah. Before you move on to the next part of this because everyone’s on the edge of their seats. What happened, but I want to ask, I’m a door divorcee myself, and I know there’s plenty of those listening and people that know divorcees, and that kind of thing. You know, it’s a hard it’s really hard structurally, and it’s really hard. I know, I went away from Christ after the divorce, because I just felt like a failure. I felt like I went away from him. I did the wrong thing. And, you know, is that something that you suggest to divorcees to kind of get a chance to apologize for your side of it? Or is that something that you feel like God specifically put on your heart? Not necessarily. Does everyone kind of need to go to that space? Do you have a sense yet? Well, it’s interesting. You know, I’ve been asked that question before, because sometimes the thought of, of what’s happened in our marriage makes people a little bit nervous, like, Oh, my goodness, do I have to contact me?
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Please tell me, I don’t have to do that. But you know what happened to me? All I can say is it was out of obedience, like God kept pressing it on my heart. He was relentless about it. Like I would smell Clints cologne out of nowhere or his name, somebody would ask me something about him or I’d meet someone who had his name. And so God was pretty relentless of laying that on my heart and he brought me to a point in my relationship where I love Jesus so much that I wanted to be, I wanted to do what he wanted me to do. So I’ve seen it happen both ways. I’ve seen God take a person, like, you know me and say, you need to bring closure, you know, come clean with your part of the breakdown so that you can have peace in your heart. And so, you know, from a peaceful standpoint, it did make me feel like I had peace and to move on. Because I, you know, I really was wanting to move on with my life. So I don’t know if I answered your question, but I’ve seen it happen both ways. Where God just really says, Yes, I want you to, you know, confess and just kind of admit your part, even if you weren’t the one, maybe it was the husband that, you know, that walked away or whatever, but just for the sake of saying, hey, there were some things that just want to come clean, because I’m moving on with God now. And, you know, but don’t be surprised at what God does through that forgiveness, because I didn’t see this coming. Yeah, well, and I wonder also just thinking about, you know, God’s ways are so much higher than ours, and he knows if there’s purposes behind it, uh, we don’t understand. So, you know, I’m remarried. I have, there’s obviously no, there’s no chance of that kind of a story. But you just never know if God wants there to be some acknowledgment. Because I know that when I was away from Christ for those couple years following my divorce, even though I don’t think it was God’s will for us to reconcile if I had just received an apology or something along those lines, some acknowledgment that I was hurt wrongfully, or any of those kinds of things that might have made my position towards Christ very difference. Definitely, I definitely agree. Yeah. And you know, too, there’s a lot of, I don’t know, you know, different feelings, Clint was married before me. And he became a Christian, and actually during a marriage, and then his wife, things, you know, did not go so well, when he was a believer, and she wasn’t anyway, there was a lot of destructive behavior on her part. So there are a lot of people who this sounds crazy, and I’m sure you faced it, too. They almost discredited us because of the divorce and remarriage on his part. And we’re like, wow, you know what, that’s the Lord’s. I mean, that they just some people, you know, feel strongly about that, but we are not. I mean, we know that sometimes God does. His plan includes remarriage and children. So I bless you in that, because that’s what God did with Clint. And then yeah, married me. So yeah, yeah, I kind of feel like sometimes we get the, you know, scripture that says that God hates divorce. And, and, and it’s not something that he wants us to do. And it is a sin to get divorced. But, God, I mean, Jesus went to the cross for every single sin and everyone, everyone. So yes, we’re not. That’s not. That’s not what we set out to do. i My husband and I both are like, we just wish we were the first ones we ever met. I mean, it just would have been such a, you know, we can prescribe that all day long. But God has got a second chances. He’s got a forgiveness. And so you just should not continue feeling like your life and your walk with Christ as a failure. If you got divorced. Yeah, absolutely. No. And I think there are a lot of finally on the marketplace. There are some great resources that really speak to that. And so yeah, if you’re a listener out there, and you’ve been divorced, and you feel that failure, I mean, I felt it. I know. Yeah, absolutely. No, so you’re not, you’re not a failure. And God does have a plan. And I hope for you, yes. Well, yes. Amen. Well, okay, so finish this amazing tale. Just excited. Okay, so, so you wrote this letter, and then well, I was too afraid to mail it as I at the time, God had brought this amazing PR partner, Gal into my life. And so I asked her to help me have the courage to, to mail it. And so she did, she went with me, and we mailed the letter. And I just Bella, I just felt the greatest amount of release and relief. I was a principal elementary school principal at the time. So, you know, I was busy with my career and everything. And I came home from work one day, and there was a blinking light on my answering machine. And there was that voice I hadn’t heard in 11 years. And all it said was, I got your letter, you know, like,
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I’m going to call back, you know, one more time eight o’clock your time if you’re there, you’re there. If you’re not, you’re not and I was like, Oh, you got to be kidding me. Yeah. So he called he called and we often refer to that conversation as the Grand conversation. Because it lasted five hours. Yeah. Even had to take potty breaks. I mean, it was that, you know, so and I was so fearful that he was finally going to, you know, kind of let me have it. But instead he told me that he had really bottomed out with God and reconciled his relationship with God. And we just we had all these questions for each other. And it was, it was probably it would not probably it was the most unexpected, intimate. I mean, we were never even into that intimate in our first marriage, you know, sharing this stuff. And he told me some things that happened to him as a little boy that made sense, you know, in some of his behavior, and I told him some things that happened to me as a little girl. I mean, it was just like, wow. So we had the five hours, we prayed together, we extended forgiveness, we apologized. He apologized to me for his lack of emotional availability. I mean, it was so wonderful. And we cried, and we prayed, and we hung up. And then I thought, Okay, God, moving on. That’s it. And two days later, I get this letter in the mail from him that he had mailed it evidently, after we hung up. And I’ll just cut to the chase at the bottom of the letter, it said, you know, there’s one question that I didn’t ask you on the phone. And that is, have you ever thought about reconciliation? I was like, No, I did not know because having been unfaithful to I was like, Are you kidding me? Why would you even want me back? I mean, that was just, it was such an example of Christ’s love for us. His No, just arms wide open. Yeah, so I call them and I said, I got to be honest with you. That was not I mean, he goes, No, I know. Your letter said there was no intent. But have you ever written I’m like, No, I’d never ever thought about it. But I guess we better just start praying because I never saw any. You know, neither one of us ever. That was just not even in our realm. You know, the story in the Bible. zekiel 37. Where is he kills walking back and forth in the valley of dry bones? I mean, that had been us for 11 years. So yeah, yeah. So yeah. Pretty wild. God is pretty, pretty wild. Yeah. And so then, did he move or did you move or well did long distance for Yeah, I did 3000 mile thing for a while. Every Sunday night, we would talk on the phone and pray for each other. And you know what’s funny, we never did that stuff. When we were married the first time we didn’t. I mean, we prayed over meals. And we prayed at church, but not by have really together. So we started doing that we started sharing scripture back and forth. And then we decided to meet each other. And we thought that we picked like a neutral zone in the United States. Just in case things didn’t go. We had our own separate rooms. We did everything, you know, aboveboard, but we met in Denver, that was kind of the closest we could get between the two of us. And it was about three months after I’d written the letter. So Secretly, I kind of thought, great, he’s gonna wait till we’re face to face and then he’s gonna let me have it. You know, he’s gonna be like, yeah, so I have never been so nervous in my entire life walking up the thing to meet him in the airport. And we often show the video I had actually given my video camera to someone on the airplane, and asked them to film our reunion. Kind of crazy. I know, but I did. So we actually have that footage. And you can just see the nervousness on my face. And then Clint just opens His arms. And just, yeah, that is so precious. So it wasn’t an easy weekend. We were really gut wrenchingly honest with each other, and spent a lot of time in prayer talking about what had happened and where God had taken us both. And then at the end of that weekend, Clint did propose to be oh my god. Yeah, I know. I know. So three more months would go by before he would finally pack everything up, sell his home in Florida moved back to California, and we were remarried on August 17 2002. Wow. And then the hard work started. Right. She’s okay. Wow. Well, I mean, one thing that specifically stuck out to me before was just thinking through how someone heals from such past. I mean, so much history of inflicting pain on each other and then this huge separation where you both have done life apart for so long, and
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yeah, it was no small feat. It was a little scary after the euphoria like people were freaking out that we were rebound. I mean, friends from our first church came to the wedding or family or family was like what I mean to my dad actually got saved as a result of Yeah, because he was so shocked that we were, you know, reconciling. And he’s like, what, how did this happen? I’m like, Well, Dad, so all this is going on, but then you got to be married, you know, you have to be married. So we figured out pretty quickly, but we better get on our face before God and really let him have his way. And that’s what happened. I mean, God just really got our attention. And we started doing some super tangible stuff, and asking God intentionally to show us how to do marriage his way this time. Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, I know, we could talk forever. For a long time about that. Yes. Well, and then you shared just the most painful thing that happened after all of that hard, hard work. Where you I met, I’m guessing you had built a good amount of emotional intimacy at that point. And your ministry was already happening. Yeah. Yeah, we had been in full time serving God since 2006. On the road, you know, just had really some rhythms, some stride going in the ministry and also marriage. And then on December 11 2011, we got a call that just shattered our world, ela, it just shattered our world, you know, mental illness, I know, people are more willing to talk about it. These days, my brother had courageously fought a battle for 20 years, with mental illness, and he just could not fight any longer. And so we got the call that my sister had founded, and he had taken his life. And even for all the years, Clint and I had built, we actually had 11 years of marriage. under our belt, it was still a whole new territory for us. Wow. Yeah. Wow. It’s tough. It’s tough. Oh, my gosh, yeah. And there’s men and women don’t grieve the same way. You know, that first year took us a while to figure it out, too. Because I was very, very close to my little brother. And so Clint was seeing his seeing me, this is how he says that he said, when you lost your brother, I felt like I lost my wife. And it was just because that grief, if you’ve never lost someone close to you, especially that trauma of suicide is very complex. And so here, I’m, I’m, you know, we’re clean. It’s Christmas time, we’re having to race to California, we’re cleaning out his house. And, yeah, it’s Christmas, and oh, gosh, the new year and all of that. And all of a sudden, I got really, I just kind of crawled into a little hole with the darkness of the grief. And Clint didn’t know what to do. He was just like, he could not take away my pain. He didn’t, he wasn’t sure what to do. So again, we had to every Sunday night, what we did was, ask God, as hard as this is show us how to grieve together, show us how to grieve together because Clint was real. He was close to my brother, too, but not in the same way. So he was able to not maybe grieve as the same way or as deeply I mean, I was really feeling it. I was crying a lot. And, you know, it’s something as simple as he would say, Hey, why are you crying? And I’d look at him like, Are you kidding me? What do you mean, in my mind? He go, and he would mean, like, Did you see a picture of your breath? Not, you know, and I would take it as What do you mean? Why am I crying? My brother die? You know? Right, right. Little Things could create a big gap between a husband and a wife. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that I mean, when you when you talk to marriages that have gone through this kind of pain. I mean, a lot of marriages don’t survive grief. They don’t know. I mean, what do you think major is different? Well,
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we knew that if we didn’t, you know, really pay attention and kind of study it, we had to turn. You know, you don’t really want to study anything, when you’re grieving is just, you’re just existing in the day to day but I remember we really hadn’t made a decision to Okay, let’s recognize the fact that this is putting us enemy wants to put us in two different camps here. So we started looking into suffering in the Bible. Of course, there’s plenty of it, and ask God to create intimacy in this place of grief. You know, Lord, how are you going to do that? So of course, the stories in the Bible job and Paul and others, we started reading those every Sunday night at 730. We would get the get on the couch and we’re like, okay, let’s, you know, a lot of times I couldn’t talk much, I would just cry and Clint would just pray for me and pray for healing to come and then I have to say, you know, I was taking like a grief Class and Class really came alongside me. There was a night where they invited other people to come besides the person who was grieving and like Clint came with me. And he’s like, I want to learn, I want to know about this. And he met other husbands whose wives had lost dramatically. And we realize, you know, God, really? I mean, yeah, there’s an 85% divorce rate for couples who go through trauma. So we didn’t want to be that statistic again, and we just decided to, you know, it was hard. It was, I won’t, you know, we will also know, knew that we’ve been honest about everything else. Let’s just be gut wrenchingly honest with others. We stepped up, we took our ministry, we put it on hold for a year, we just said no, we’re just gonna make sure we’re healing ourselves in our marriage. And we just set everything aside for that year. Wow. That’s, yeah, I mean, it’s, yeah, it’s just the story of so many. I’ve had so much pain, and it’s so hard to, like you said relate to each other when either of you. I mean, you’re dealing with it differently. It’s also affecting both of you very differently. And I love that you said you were you really studied grief. We had to Yeah. And you know, Clint was ready, sooner than I was for ministry. And so what we did, because I just was nowhere near, you know, able to do anything, he started leading a husband’s group, he said, Do you mind at first I was kind of like, how could you do that? And then I thought, no, you know, he is he’s more ready. So he went, and he just ministered to some husbands for a couple months. And they started coming, you know, to a weekly class. And we had never done anything like that. And then it was God was just opening up a new way for him, you know, to serve. And so I just blessed him in that I said, I’m not there with you yet. But I bless you in being able to do that now. And, and he was really patient about waiting for me to until, until I could say like, Okay, I’m ready to do this again. Yeah. Wow. And I and I think it was so wise that you spent that time to really, I mean, expose yourself to the grief, not ignore it, or try to push it away, but actually allow, allow that process to happen and be really honest about it. Yeah, you know, Bill it too, I think we had to look for ways to stay connected. So one of the about a year and a half, maybe two years after we had lost my brother, Clint is a videographer and he videotapes, testimonies. And so I came to him one day, and I said, You know what, I’m ready to talk about this. Because I know that the statistics for suicide are just alarming. And I said, there has to be even one other person is it? So would you film my story of of grief and suicide, grief, and you know what that was like. And so that was the way for us, for me to still tell my story for Clint to participate in it. And for us to stay connected through it, that was just one tangible way God gave us to stay connected. Is that something that we could find? Like, could I link that on the on the show notes page and get let people see that? It is? Yeah, okay. I can get you that link. But it’s at except for those who weep calm, but I’ll send you the link for sure. Yes. And I imagine that you probably have a resources that can like we can point people to that either know, people that have been in this or are in it themselves. Yeah,
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yeah, we do have a grief response journal that we put together, because one of the things that I realized were for, there weren’t a lot of resources out there, just a lot of shame for people and as like, know that we’re, you know, struggling. So I put together my artwork and some articles on grief and put together a response journal. So I can give you that link as well. I just want people to know that they are not alone in their grief. You know, it’s grief is such an isolating thing. Yes. Yeah. So yes, that is really huge. And such a needed resource, since it’s such needed exposure and light about it, to talk about it and actually understand it. And I think it’s also really helpful for those of us that haven’t gone through significant grief to know even what to say how to relate if we should say anything. I mean, because I didn’t know I mean, I think the things I said to people are God’s going to use this for His glory and like, well, that’s great. But when you’re, when you’ve just lost, you know, you don’t even wanna, I remember somebody saying that to me, and I thought, How many times have I said that to somebody trying to comfort them, but it was like, that’s not comforting. It’s not comfy. Yeah. I think sometimes our hugs and our embraces can say more than our words can Wow. Yep. And there’s almost like a lot of times when you’re with someone that’s grieving, there’s almost this pressure that you feel like I have to say something that’s going to fix this right away. Yeah. And I mean, what? You know if you could speak to that even just for a second, what would Yeah, what do you think is the best kind of approach to someone who’s in grief? Well, a friend said to me, I said, I feel like such a wreck. I said, feel like a train wreck. And she said, You know what, you can be a wreck until you’re not. And I thought, How brilliant is that? Just really, she was the first person that gave me the grace to grieve. And then it’s okay. It’s okay to grieve and and your your normal to grieve, you feel so abnormal when you’re grieving, you know, and society doesn’t really allow for you to be bawling your eyes out in the grocery store, or even at church sometimes. And so I think just giving people the grace to grieve, and saying, there’s no timeline on it, you, you know, you have that grace to just grieve in whatever way it looks like. Because grief does make you do strange things. Like, I go out to the ocean all the time on like, my brother’s birthday, and I’ll, I’ll carve his name in the sand, and I’ll put some flowers in the ocean. And I’m sure people look at me and think, What is that about, you know, what’s she doing out there, but it’s part of that mourning and grieving and, and, you know, you do those kinds of things, because you’re grieving and you’re remembering your loved ones. So I think giving people the grace degree, they’re not trying to feel like you have to say the perfect thing that’s going to snap them out of it. Just reminding them that you’re there, hey, if you need to talk or you don’t need to talk, I’m here, I’m here. And I’m not going anywhere, as long as for as long as it takes, I am not going anywhere. That’s powerful. That’s so good. And that. I mean, you can relate that, wherever you are in, in respect to grieving, whether you are the person that’s grieving, whether you’re married to the person that’s grieving, whether you’re a friend or acquaintance, or even how to pray for them that they feel free to grieve. And you know, with divorce to Bella, I mean, divorce carries its own grief. And it’s Yeah, society doesn’t recognize that they look at you like, oh, you signed the papers, you should be happy now you’re free from your your grieving, you’re grieving the loss of that marriage. And a lot of people don’t understand what what divorce people go through, they go through the grief, and it’s like, the other person is still alive, but they’re still grieving, you know? Yes. Because it almost feels like I mean, every I think about this with my parents who divorced when I was 20 have five kids. I mean, it just, they had an entirely huge life together. And then it ended and then every memory that should have been positive and fun and full of excitement and joy is now tainted with this, you know, sadness and shame and guilt and regret. And I mean, even including their kids, because the spouse is there with their kids. So there’s a whole lot of grieving. That happens. I mean, I was fortunate enough that I divorced when I didn’t have that much history with that person. And and I think every every divorce, he has to bring that before God and and be able to grieve that and be able to let him heal that. Yes, you
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know, there’s a scene in the Bible and I need to look up to where it is or Samuel or say about David and the warriors at Ziklag. They go, they’ve returned for more, you know, here they are, the studly King and all his warriors and the cities have been taken hostage, their their, you know, loved ones have been dragged away, not necessarily killed, but dragged away. And it says that they weeped until they could weep no more. And I thought these were men, these were warriors. And they weeped until they could weep no more. So I’m like, Yeah, you know, let’s talk about the grace degree right there if a warrior king David needed to cry as her out when he lost his son, and hey, you know, yeah, we have the privilege sometimes I think the church I mean, we don’t do it intentionally. But there’s, there’s not like that. We need to have a row for people who need to whale or something. Because you feel kind of dumb as you’re like, trying to blot your eyes and you’re balling. Yeah, sorry, I’m grieving right now. And there’s no apology needed. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of times in the church, we feel like we need to make it better because that’s what we’re doing where the hands of Jesus we are making things better, you know? But, I mean, a lot of times Jesus, when he found out the Lazarus was dead, he cried. You know, he grieved and and he didn’t just go, he didn’t even go right away and fix it. He went, I think it was three days away. Yeah, well, yeah, of, of everyone grieving. This whole thing was, you know, everyone was grieving and yet, he could have fixed it. With a snap of his fingers, I mean, there’s so much more we could talk about how not to be offended at God and how to stay close to him. Yeah, so I, thank you so much for sharing this because I think this is a huge, a huge situation that people find themselves in. Yeah. And you know, it is when you click on the news, like my little Yahoo News thing came up, and it had all these tragedies listed. And now I look at that differently. And I think, Oh, those families, and you know, those marriages, and thankfully, now, here we are four and a half years down the road, and God has allowed us to serve some of those families. I have a group of women who come once a month, and they’re dealing with the tragedy of murder, suicide, suicide, homicide, accidental death, and you want to talk about holy ground. I mean, here are these women, you’re a mom, you know, what, what would it be like to lose a child to that tragedy? So, you know, I say all that, because God, He really does. He’s a tender God. And even though we don’t understand some of the things that happen, he will meet us in the midst of those tragedies, and comfort, and just bring his comfort and his healing. So if you’re a listener who has experienced something that you don’t understand, because I still don’t understand my brother’s suicide, it’s still Yeah, no mystery. There’s a lot of things about that day that I don’t know, we’ll never know, you know, I just know he’s in heaven. I know, he, he’s, and I know, I’ll see him again. And I know there’s a God who cares about those who are her grieving. Yeah. Yeah. And I also like, I know, we have so much more I want to get through on this. But one thing you said earlier is about how your brother bravely fought mental illness for so many years. And, and that was something I had no sense of at all. And it was so easy for me to judge people that struggle with mental illness because I had no idea what was going on. And it wasn’t until I had my second child, and I went through something called postpartum psychosis, which is very rare, but as, but it happens. Yeah. Sounds like you’ve heard of it. Yes. I have an I have friends who have gone through it. It is I mean, I bet it turns you upside down and inside upside down? Absolutely. Yep. And there’s so much stigma on it, to know that that shame that, you know, we don’t talk about those kinds of things. And yet, it’s a very real thing. Yeah, happened. It is and, and I will not ever, I understand suicide in a very different way than I ever did ever, ever, ever. And I was closer than I ever thought I ever could be here. So it’s by the grace of God that I’m still here. But I know that if you know anyone, or have heard of anyone in suicide, or if you hear things on the news, I mean, just check your heart just for empathy, just prayer and empathy right away, because we just don’t know, we just don’t,
48:21
we don’t, you know, we don’t I can remember my brother’s phone calls when he you know, cuz he had talked about this, and we did all the things you’re supposed to do, you know, they have a plan and call one 800 You know, suicide and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I would hear him just the agony of the darkness of feeling alone of feeling like it wasn’t going to get any better. And God has kept that kind of fresh in my mind. Because we don’t know the person that you could be you could be listening to this podcast right now I don’t know in your car are somewhere and look to the left or to the right. And there could be someone right there who said, you know, if something doesn’t give today, that’s it. I’m you know, and to those who feel that temptation to just end it. Let me tell you the pain you’re you’re choosing what temp permanent solution to a temporary problem. And that sounds so darn trite, but it’s true. It’s really true. Yeah, yep, yep. Yep. And, and I also am so grateful that you have ministries that support people in these scenarios. And I also just want to speak to anyone close to considering this, that expose it to the lions. It’s hard. It’s embarrassing. It’s shameful. I mean, if you feel all those feelings, but it’s worth it. I believe you can be brave enough to expose this to the light to get people involved. And if the first person doesn’t know how to empathetically and support you and know how to love you the right way and then move on to the Got a message and just keep going. It’s really within the grace that God has given you to do that you can do that. That’s powerful, that’s powerful. Again, I’m so grateful for you sharing this. And I’m just going to be in prayer that this is going to reach the right people, and people will share it with the right people and, and this message will continue to spread. Well, I know that we serve a God of hope. And the time that I spent after going through the postpartum psychosis in recovery was a long time, it was many months, and I was looking at my journal just the other day that I kept during that time. And, man, you so cling to God, when you just have no other alternative. I think God sometimes allows those seasons in our lives that we really are broken, we’re in such pain, we’re in such challenging situations. And I think he can use them, to bring us closer to himself, to teach us things to give us empathy, to grow us. I don’t know where you are along the lines of any of this, whether any of this rings home. But I know that none of us live in a bubble. And we’re all affected by what other people are going through. And God set it up that way. So I hope that this has given you an opportunity to peer into someone else’s story, to care about someone else’s life and to have hope that God can bring healing, that he can bring people out of the depths of despair. And I love how we even started the conversation with Penny about Psalms. You know, there were so much beauty in so much of what we talked about, and reconciliation after such hardship and all that. And then to have such a horrible experience, that’s not uncommon. But then to see that even in the midst of the amount of agony, the Psalmist went through, he would still say, and yet I will praise you. Why is my soul downcast trust in God. So I just encourage you, wherever you are, to pray, first of all, for the people listening to this broadcast, that they would be encouraged that they would have hope. And secondly, to pray for your own heart, that when you have the opportunity to encourage someone else, that you would give them the space to grieve, you would give them the space to be a wreck until they’re not. And I also want to speak to those who are in grief
53:16
that you can trust people to help you carry this burden. There are trustworthy people that love you that care about you. And if you want to start that conversation, I would just encourage you to ask them to listen to this and have that conversation, following up to find people who can carry you in this grief, who can pray for you, and love on you and give you the space to be a wreck when you need to be. Thank you so much for listening. And I just pray that God would impact every listener today. Because ultimately, everything about this life is temporary. And if we’re not making movements towards eternity, and our home with Jesus, what are we doing anyway? So I just encourage you, God bless you. Thank you for listening to this, this challenging episode and I pray that it would impact your heart. Looking forward to talking to you again on Tuesday, Penny has a lot more to share, even about intimacy in the midst of all of this and how her marriage survived this intense time. God bless you. I’ll talk to you soon.
54:34
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion
Have you had a desire or a dream that has been delayed? It’s amazing what God wants to do in the times when we’re waiting and the seasons that we don’t have what we’ve set out for. Heather shares the difficulty of her dreams being unattainable right now. The vision for her life is still in her heart but hasn’t happened yet. She shares about a trap we can all get in when we’re discontent and comparing our lives to others. And God wants us to be walking with purpose and contentment in the seasons where we aren’t “there” yet. Listen in and find out how.
You’ll Discover:
How we all have dreams in our heart, but sometimes they don’t happen in the timing we desire.
How Heather’s vision of her future is very different than it has happened.
How dwelling on what we don’t have makes us miss what God is doing or how He wants to use us.
Discover what lies you’re feeding your mind daily and how to dismantle them.
Hear how starting your day with specific prayers allows you to withstand some of the most significant trials in life.
How to uproot the fear of losing our dreams and goals.
Sorting through the value of knowledge in response to our situation.
Tweetables:
You’re putting this dream ahead of me, and I have other things for you.
This life is short, but eternity is not.
What we dwell on really affects our heart and our behaviors.
Look at your situation through the eyes that God would be proud of.
Get up each morning and say “God, how can I help someone else today?”
“Honey, I’m so scared that my dream is crumbling”.
Fear not. Without change there would be no butterflies.
The power to overcome fear comes from the Lord.
Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!
Love,
Belah
—
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TRanscript
0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah. Rose.
0:19
haven there, you know, if you are in the midst of a season, where you’ve got these dreams, you’ve got these visions of your future the way you want your life to look or be. And you’re in the in between times, right, your dreams are delayed? Well, one, I just want to say you’re not alone. It’s a very difficult, difficult struggle, and it can be super isolating, and just feel like you’re the only one that feels so out of the place that you really want to be. So I just want to encourage you, number one, we’re with you in that. And that’s what this whole story today is about. I’ve got a wonderful guest, her name’s Heather Veatch, she has a website called pre engaged, calm. And you can imagine what that’s about. But she’s got a great ministry there. So I’d encourage you to check it out, go to delight your marriage.com/ 86 because I’ve got a specific link, that she’s got some free material for you actually a free course to go through. If you think you might have found the one it’s actually very cool. So check out that specific link. But yeah, I mean, our dreams are huge. God, I think gives us dreams, I think that’s a huge part of what gives us hope is when we think about what God has in store for our lives, and for maybe our families, maybe our marriages, maybe our careers, whatever, you know, helps you to get up in the morning and feel fulfilled and excited and vibrant. But what about those times when it just feels like it’s not happening, or, you know, maybe there’s a situation where it can’t happen anymore. And that dream has died. You know, those are really, really hard seasons. And our marriages can help us and teach us a lot in those seasons. But most importantly, it’s our relationship with God that gets us through them. And Heather has a really powerful story with wonderful insights that helps us to put our life in perspective. One thing she says is Life is short. Eternity is long. And I think I’m also going to link a video called the rope that I saw recently, and it’s all about this wonderful preacher named Francis Chan. And he’s talking about this very long, long, long rope. And the very tip of it is like, red. And he’s talking about this tiny part of the rope is our life. And the rest of this huge, long, long, long, forever and ever and ever is eternity. And so what we’re doing in this very tiny portion of our lives, matters for the rest of eternity. So I’m going to post that video. It’s amazing. So definitely go to delight your marriage.com/ 86 to find it. But I want to dive into today’s topic. I think Heather’s got some awesome insights for us. So let’s just jump in, dive in whatever you want to do get in this awesome interview.
3:35
Hi, there and welcome back. Thank you so much delight your marriage listener. My name is belah rose, as you know, and I’m so thrilled to have Heather ViZZ on from pre engaged calm. So Heather, how are you? Welcome.
3:48
I’m doing well. Thank you very much for having me.
3:51
Absolutely. I’m excited to hear your story. And I think it’s a very cool ministry that you and your husband have. And I know you’re going to talk a little bit more about that. But would you go ahead and introduce yourself, your family and a little bit about your day to day life? Sure. Well,
4:05
I’m well, I am working from home now. I’m pretty engaged. I’m married to a wonderful guy, Eric and we do not have children yet. But we do have a golden retriever who was five and she thinks she’s our baby. So she kind of takes a lot of a lot of attention. Like that our master’s degrees a few years ago, in 2009. And the next year, I was able to come home full time and and for pre engaged. So that’s such a blessing. Yeah, um, day to day life is pretty Eric still working full time. But um, you know, he comes, he comes home in the evening. It gives me a full day. I’m an introvert. So I kind of enjoy that time. Just do my schedule the way that that works for me, and then at night, we get to spend some time together and that’s wonderful.
4:56
Yeah, that really is. And can you tell a little bit about You know, you mentioned you’re an introvert but you and your personalities of your husband, how does that kind of work together?
5:05
Oh my, we could talk the whole hour just about my husband is an absolute go getter. He is an extrovert. I mean, not not an extreme extrovert, but he is he loves people, he loves helping people. He wants lots of social interaction. And I get very drained very easily by that. So that’s an interesting point in our marriage, but he is very, like he needs to accomplish, like, I could get up in the morning and say, You know what, today I’m just gonna relax, gonna have a day where I’m gonna read or, or watch TV or whatever, and just spend time with him. And he needs to get something done. Or he can relax. So they that’s been interesting. But um, I would definitely say he’s the accelerator like he’s on on go. And I’m usually the one that’s kind of like pulling back saying, wait a second, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? So we balance each other. And at the same time, I think we call each other angst from?
6:04
Yes, and you and probably also you kind of stretch each other to get outside of your comfort zone and be a little bit more relaxed in his on his friend, he probably needs to be a little more relaxed. And you you know, that the same time both of you get stuff done, because he’s there kind of thing, right? Absolutely. The
6:20
Jake is like, I always thought I’d marry someone like my dad, but my dad is just like me. So my dad, nothing would get done. And if Eric was married to someone like him, they would probably be butting heads about what needed to get done. And so we really do as stressful as it has been at times, we really do balance each other out. And I’m thankful for that.
6:43
Yeah, that’s very cool. Well, I mean, I think it’s definitely a sign of you’ve come a long way from, you know, because I think a lot of times we can look at our marriages and say, you know, this is what’s wrong. And instead of looking at those things that could be called wrong and see blessings in them. Absolutely. That’s great. Well, I really want to hear a story, you know, a story about a struggle in a season a marriage. And I think the reason that I asked this question is because when we kind of understand how others handle difficult situations, it helps us to put ourselves in those shoes and be like, yeah, I could handle it that way, instead of the way that I haven’t handled it that might not be as healthy or, and also struggles really teach us about ourselves. They teach about God. I mean, there’s so many things that we get through struggles, even though they’re very difficult. So yeah, so I want to hear Yeah, how it happened for you all and how you kind of came through it?
7:33
Well, there are a couple things that come to mind. But one that I’ll I will talk about now, we have been married about 10 and a half years. And before we got married, we were planning to have just a house full of children. I mean, we flipped four, he wanted six, so we were hopefully going to have six at least. He was so sure we had names picked out everything. About six months, probably about six months into our marriage. I thought there was a good chance that I was pregnant. And um, you know, I thought, wow, that’s the sooner than we expected. But your mind starts going you start thinking about how it’s going to affect your family, how you’re going to tell your parents all these things come to mind. And then when I take a test, I it was negative. And I was really surprised at how disappointed I was. Because really wasn’t our plan. So I would have thought I would have been slightly relieved, but absolutely not. I was. I was, I wouldn’t say devastated. But I was concerned. So that actually was one of the few things that would have gotten me out the door to the doctor is the thought of, of something being wrong there. And when I went to the doctor, I found out that I was diabetic. And I didn’t didn’t realize. And from there, I think it’s one it occurred to me that this could really be a problem. But I don’t think I panic yet. But as the years went by, and co workers were getting pregnant and people at church were getting pregnant and my cousins who were younger than me, pregnant. And then eventually people babysat, you know, on down the line is when it really started to kind of weigh and the thought was, you know, this is the only thing I really ever thought this would be my great work, motherhood, great work. And I was just sure that, so when it it happened that that wasn’t coming, I felt very lost. And I think the struggle between Eric and me was I wanted him to be as devastated as I was I wanted him to show those signs that he was up nights or that you know that he was a little angry or frustrated. And he was so steady about it. And I think you know, I wanted him to put as much effort and feelings at least outwardly into this this area of our lives as he did our work. And I think I began to resent the fact that he was so focused on first graduate school and then you know, we had another business we did for a short time then now pre engaged and I didn’t understand like, How can something isn’t important as I was having children not not bother you, like pouring all this time into this. And it took, I think a lot of years and me really understanding him more to realize that no, he desperately wanted to be a parent. But he thought, in the meantime, while God has given us the season without children, we really should take that time to invest in people to invest in our future to build a business so that we have the funds so that we have, you know, some flexibility when the children come. And I don’t really think he’s lost his faith probably nearly as much as I have along the way. And by the grace of God, I’ve regained it, but I think I’ve been through a lot more hills and valleys. But it did take a while. But I did finally realize no, he’s not. He’s not neglecting this. He’s just handling it in a much different way.
10:49
Before you go on. Yeah, I just want to kind of a couple things. First of all, you talked about your dream of motherhood. It’s interesting, I’ve been grappling with this recently about sometimes our dreams and our goals are our guiding light, almost. And I know I have a tendency of letting those guide me more than God is guiding me. It’s more about my dream, you know? And then, you know, just this past year, we had a real difficulty that kind of threatened to totally disarm all that dream, and totally could, but but it really causes you to Yeah, like you said, feel lost feel like, you know, what, what am I doing here? What’s, what’s this life really about? If I’m not able to accomplish what I was most set on? I mean, how was that for you?
11:41
Well, early on, it was it’s almost hard to put into words, I just, yeah, it was kind of like, I’m nobody until I’m there. For, you know, I was actually resented the fact that I had to do other things, because I wasn’t doing that. Because I would see, you know, moms with their children knowing in my head not not fully understanding until, excuse me more recently, um, yeah, that mothers have such a burden that I could not man. So until up in it. But But resenting that I was doing an eight to five job resenting that, you know, that I was having to pour my energy into something when my heart was really somewhere else. And I think, through friends who have either been there, or at least friends for just very godly in tune with Holy Spirit, that kind of helped me, I guess, in a sense, understand that where I am now, is not a mistake. And the desire is not a mistake, but he really is sovereign. And if I don’t have children, right now, there’s something for him, I’m suppose whether that’s an eight to five job, whether that’s pouring my heart and soul into the business we’re in now, whether it’s ministering to the women around me, and I think at some point, it occurred to me that I was making an idol out of motherhood, that I’m pouring every ounce of who I was into wanting that, and then being angry, because I didn’t have that. And almost, you know, I never thought growing up, I would ever be angry with God about anything. And the thought of anyone being angry at God just seemed absolutely outlandish. I mean, he’s, could you possibly be angry with God? That I think I was, even if I didn’t want to admit it, I think I was like, God, are you punishing me? Like, did I do something to deserve this? I see all these people that don’t even want children and, and here they are with, with multiple children. Right? You know, I think once I came to the realization that no, you’re, you’re idolizing this, you’re putting this ahead of me. And I am in control of your life, I have something very specific I need for you to do that I do. And you need to trust me. And even if that means you’re never a mother, you need to trust life is short, eternity is not. And you need to set your eyes on eternity. That’s Yeah, hello. But once you get to that point, there really is a piece
14:13
that’s powerful. When you kind of realize that this was an idol for you. And I think all of us whoever’s listening, you can think about things in your life that you’re so strongly leaning towards that, you know, you might need to have that question. Is this an idol? And, you know, when you kind of came to that spot, how did you kind of earn unearth that?
14:36
Can you can you explain a little differently?
14:40
Yeah, I guess I’m thinking like, practically, if someone’s feeling that same way, like regardless of what it is, it might be motherhood for a lot of people listening because this is a very, very, very difficult and common struggle. I’ve got multiple friends that have had the same thing. And it’s just, it’s really heartbreaking in a lot of ways, but it’s Maybe that’s not your struggle, maybe that’s not the issue. Maybe it’s, you know, being able to give your family a well off lifestyle, but the you know, job prospects are just not there. Or maybe it’s a having a husband that does certain things for you, but he just isn’t that personality type, whatever that struggle is that you’re having. I guess my question is, when you identify that idol, how do you? How do you get out of it? How do you transform that idol into something? Because it’s still part of your life, you still want motherhood? But how do you make it not an idol?
15:36
Well, it takes Yeah, it’s really truly the grace of God. Um, and I think, I think when we dwell, what we dwell on really does affect where we go, and our thinking, and then our behaviors. And just like when I’m upset with my husband, for not seeing the world the way I do, because we are so different. When I focus on that, I find myself grumpy, I don’t really want to connect with him, I find myself thinking of all the negative things that he brings to the marriage. And then, I mean, that doesn’t do me any good doesn’t do us any good. But when I when I take that down, and try to look at him through through the eyes that I know would please the Lord, like look for strengths and whatnot, I emerge from that very thankful for him. And I think, in this season of my life with with the infertility, I think when I dwell on the infertility, when I really just bow down at that, you know, that author and just really think about that I am, you know, I’m discouraged. I’m almost just completely useless, in a sense to me, because I’m just very, it’s almost a selfishness, like, I’m very in myself very in what I want, and not wanting to open up my heart to the idea that there could be something else that, that the Lord really wants me to do for someone else. And that, and I think that’s the thing about idols and dwelling on them. It makes us selfish, it really, it makes us so so focused, that we miss all these opportunities around us to be a blessing. And one thing for me that has been huge is realizing how much I dwell on lies, and how they just play in my head over and over and whether it’s Heather, you shouldn’t have done that. Heather, you shouldn’t have said that. Why we’re just the tape are constantly playing. Oh, yeah. And when we obviously listen to something long enough, we believe it. And the the thing that I would suggest really to anybody going through anything, would be to just really take some time and pinpoint what what am I telling myself daily? What am I constantly feeding my mind, that isn’t true? And honestly, write it down, write with a pen and paper down? What is that, that you’re telling yourself, and then take that lie and find the truth? You know, like, for me to think God must be punishing me for something. That’s, it’s, it’s me, it’s something I’ve done. It’s something I’ve done that he’s not giving me children. Instead, reminding myself every good and perfect gift comes from God, and that parents want to give their children great gifts, why wouldn’t God also want to give me great gifts and repeating that every day like having a list and repeating it until we cleanse our minds with the truth. And I would also say probably if you’re not involved in a ministry, find one, pray for pray for the right one for you. And really focus your time and energy into that, and putting your your mind and behavior and energy on other people. And you have less time than to dwell.
18:43
Hmm, that’s so true. I love so much of what you said so far. And just to pinpoint a couple things. First of all, you talked about It’s the grace of God. So I love that because I think a lot of times I’m a self help guru. I love just spending hours in the aisle of self help improvement on you know, at bookstores and stuff, I just love it. But the truth is, I can work myself into the ground and still not get to the place where I want to go. But it’s you know that that’s kind of my my fleshly tendency, but if I recognize it’s by God’s grace that I’m anywhere in this life at all that I even know him that kind of gives me a better sense of peace and patience with myself and patience with others because I start to realize it’s not resting on my shoulders. I can’t do it all. So I love that you said is ultimately the grace of God. But but then you also got practical about what you focus on. Look at your life and your husband or whatever your situation is through the eyes that God would be pleased with. So recognizing all the blessings he’s put in those areas. And I also love that you said that it makes us selfish, you know, when we are so focused on our intentions, our aims, our desires, that’s all we can focus on. And then we’re, we’re totally out of it if we can’t get those things and the truth is, that’s the way life is we are barraged by the temptation to compare yourself constantly. I mean, with Facebook, with social media, it’s just a constant thing where you can easily say their life is better than mine. So I’m not satisfied with my life. And I think that’s, I think that’s also the sin of coveting, you know, where you’re where you’re not even, like you said, you’re not even doing what God wants you to do in your life now, because you’re so focused on the life that you don’t have, right, and then from there, very practical, writing down what you’re believing, and then the list of scriptures that totally dismiss that belief. That’s awesome. And with Google Now, you can just type in a phrase of scriptures about motherhood, are scriptures about contentment, or joy, or peace, you know, these are the things we need to be flooding over us. So and, and the thing is, I think when we’re self, like, when we’re self focused, the whole world seems miserable. We just seem so like, we can’t get out of this space of misery because we’re, we’re just so focused on ourselves. So I love the idea of getting in a project or an activity that’s helping others and helping you get out of yourself, which I think is key. So when you started kind of getting out of that spot, you know, what are some like, maybe daily disciplines or things that really helped you change or things that maybe even now you do that you that help you kind of stay on track?
21:38
Well, if you were to be interviewing my husband, and he might tell you that I am not the most disciplined person on the planet, I would love to work on my mother is as a discipline is like home. And I don’t know if I just completely just rebel, or if it’s just a personality, but two things come to mind. A couple of months ago, I was talking with Eric, I don’t know if I just said something about not feeling as happy or as joyful as I would like, I really can’t remember how the conversation came up. But he said, you know, especially because I’m home, and when you’re home when you work from home, and especially not having children, you know, aside from, from anything regarding infertility, I’ve heard other women say as well, the longer you don’t have children, you almost start to feel self centered, just because you don’t have that constant, somebody to take care of you to have your husband is different. And um, I think I was, I was feeling the weight of just focusing on myself. Surly meaning to but you know, I don’t know if you’ve ever visited someone, maybe in a nursing home or something where their whole world is just like that room. And the things that they bring up to talk about are, are just very, you know, they’re small world, and almost how I was feeling like, that’s interesting. Yeah, as big as my house, and it should be that way. And he just really challenged me. So I think if he would get up each morning and say, God, how can I help someone else today, and that was just the first thing that that you said in the morning, or that came, you know, that that you thought of? I think he said, I think he would be a lot happier. So I really, I can’t say that it’s been every day because it hasn’t. But I would really love to get to the point where I was waking up daily and thinking, Okay, today I’m going to either bless someone very much through my writing, or I’m going to contact that person that I’ve taught church that seems lonely, and I’m really going to try to invest in them or, or something to, to take the focus off of me and out of this house and you know, onto someone else. But then said, that really struck me and this could this could be for really anybody going through anything. My aunt was telling me the last time I visited my hometown that another sweet lady from a home church challenge. She’s been through a lot. So it’s not that she’s just had this easygoing life. But she told my aunt that every morning she woke up and the first thing she did was ask God to give her a sweet spirit today. Please give me a sweet spirit today. And I have to tell you, of every all the women I know, this is gonna be the sweetest woman I have ever met, no matter what’s going on. She just has just the, I don’t know, just this aroma. That’s you just want to be near her. And she lost a daughter last year. She’s had tons of tons of family issues over the years, but she’s always maintained just that very precious. You know, what you think of from First Peter three, I think 334 Where it talks about, you know, letting, letting your adorning be, you know the kindness and gentleness that that gentle spirit and that’s her to attain and it really got me thinking, you know, if I could every morning just say God, please give me that Spirit so that I can go out into the world and and be that person to others to my husband. Pick that focus out of here. You know, I think I would be so much more useful. And just, in general, happier myself as a Did that answer your question?
25:13
Yes, absolutely. Oh, it’s huge. It’s so huge. It convicts me. Absolutely. It’s just an amazing change of perspective. Because there’s so it’s just, the devil just wants us to focus on ourselves. We don’t have what we’re not doing that we wish we were I mean, and then we’re, we’re just kind of useless to the kingdom, we’re just not. We’re not where God wants us to be at all. And it’s funny because I’m more on the spectrum of your husband, where I’m kind of the go getter, got lots of dreams and goals, wants to, you know, get the to do list done. And my husband is way relaxed. I mean, I asked him new year’s resolutions this year, and it took like, a half an hour to get three things out of it. Whereas I’ve got three pages, right. Yeah, so but it’s a, it’s a huge blessing. Because when I get like, so anxious, because I’m not able to get what I think I need to get done. I’ve got a husband that kind of is like, Okay, well, let’s just sit down and relax a little bit. Let’s talk, you know what to shoot, which is huge. But yes, I mean, that tendency where we are, you know, feeling like we’re not where we want to be. And even as a mother, like I came into motherhood unexpectedly. And I know there’s a temptation, when it’s a hard day with the kids, or I’m not able to be patient or present with them. There’s a temptation to be like, Well, maybe if I were more prepared for this, I would have an easier time at motherhood, I’d be a better mother, you know. And that, and it’s just I mean, it really doesn’t matter where your life is, there’s always ways that we can be looking at it as it’s not good enough. And that’s an easy temptation to fall into, especially with our capitalistic society where it’s like, well, if you’re not happy, you need to get something to make you happy. Like that’s the answer. Yeah, instead of you said, is to actually ask the Lord to change you into a person that’s has a gentle spirit into someone who’s peaceful into someone who has a sweet spirit into someone who wants to help others. So I think that’s really powerful. So, in thinking about how this, this thing, that’s, that became an idol. How did that affect your your marriage? Like you said that there was resentment that was building but like, what was that like, between the two of you? Well,
27:33
since he is very much the go getter very much wants to accomplish. And you know, we we actually met in our psychology program at Liberty, and then we went on to get our master’s degrees in marriage and family therapy. And when we started dating, or actually, when just when we became friends, we became friends on the foundation that we both loved relationships, and we wanted to work with relationships. And so you know, at that time, I was very school minded. It was a life I was in. And I think, you know, we were just very excited about this idea of working together with couples. And then when I got married, it’s not that I quit caring about, about working with relationships. But I think my focus just went so domestic. And so I want children, I want them now. And in a sense, for a good long time, I think he felt like he’d lost that partner that you know that he’d married because he had this specific goal he’d had since the 10th grade. And furious with this woman who was supposed to be just exactly what he was looking for. And it’s like, I just completely changed went off the rails in this other direction. So that in and of itself caused a lot of friction. I remember asking God, I had a lot of relationships that weren’t, weren’t heading anywhere. When I was a teenager, I made a lot of mistakes there. And I remember coming to the Lord, I don’t know if I was just at wit’s end, or if I was sober minded, but I just said, Lord, please give me a husband who knows his calling, and is not willing to get back on it even for me. I don’t think I knew that, because I mean, I, I remember, a boyfriend asked me what I wanted to do with my life. And then he just kind of started to think, Oh, I could help you with that. And I hated that. I was just like, Nah, no, I don’t. I don’t, I don’t want you following me. That makes me very uncomfortable. And from that moment, it was like, No, this is a big deal to me. I want someone who’s who’s going to lead and has a clear vision. And God gave me just that and then so, you know, our marriage when I was so focused on children and so angry, really, I think it was more the anger and the, you know, the just hyper focus I had on it. That was more of a struggle than anything because in his mind, we, you know, yes, you want children but we don’t have them right now. So we need to be doing something you can’t wallow and wait, you have to work now. You have to serve God now. And I just, I think I was just like, why should I? Why should I have to do anything when this is this is what I’m supposed to be doing. And no one’s letting me do it. very immature. Um,
30:09
well, it’s, we’ve all been there. I mean, I feel like all of us are like, yes, nodding our head. Yes, I know just how that feels.
30:17
Somewhere somewhere between grief and a lack of maturity. And God probably just really like me not realizing he’s at work, but he was. And I remember one night, we were, you know, the way our office is set up, he has a corner, I have a corner, we have our computers, and I forget what happened. I just screamed at him about something, just let it all out. And he just quietly got up and left the room. And usually when that happens, I know I just need to let him have his space. shouldn’t have been so disrespectful, etc. But I for some reason, I didn’t wait. I just went straight downstairs and just said, Honey, I’m so sorry. But you have to understand. I’m so scared. And I don’t think I really even realized until I said that, how scared I was that my whole world, you know, this, this plan that I have this dream, this expectation was just crumbling. And you know, and he really he was very gracious. And he did say, Honey, you don’t know what it does to me. When you scream at me? You just you don’t know what that does to me. I guess it’s a man when you just when you let it out like that. But he did. He was very kind and understanding about about what was behind it. But um, I think, um, I’m reminded me again of the question, I feel like maybe I’m, oh, you’re
31:34
fine. I don’t even know. I just I’m grateful that you went where you did, because I think that’s powerful. But I appreciate I mean, I think I think a lot of times there’s fear underneath a lot of our emotions that we just don’t realize is there and, and it’s really I think that was really wise to be able to say that that’s that’s what was motivating it because who knows it’s funny because you’re like, I don’t even know what I screamed at him about but but thank God you realize that it was the fear and I think fear a lot of times the fear of failure and fear of not being enough and fear of, of everything, losing everything. I mean, there’s a lot of fears in this world. And I guess that’s probably where I want to go next is like that fear of losing that dream, the thing that you know, your heart most desired. As a wife that’s listening, how can she uproot that fear and move beyond that fear?
32:27
Hmm? Oh, well, at the risk of getting too I guess churchy or cliche. It really does. It begins with with God’s word, I can’t think of anything that has alleviated fears, more than just really diving in and, and, and seeing God’s heart and remembering that He is in control of every situation, that he’s good even even when the situation is not that he is good that he’s working on things for our good. And you know, this the old song Turn your eyes upon Jesus, I I go there often because I mean, I can remember as a child singing that, and, and really almost, almost literally feeling the world just push away and, and everything just being like this open line between the Lord and I. And I think when we get older, and we have so many responsibilities, and so many things vying for our time, we always lose that that childlike connection with the Lord. We get alone with him clear our heart of all the gunk and all the things that are trying to trying to distract us and just really focus on him. It’s like all of that burden just just lifts and there’s there’s just that quiet calm between you and the Savior. And you know, that he’s got this whatever this is, he’s got it. And I’m actually having necklace. So fear has been such an issue. I bought a necklace, it has a chain that says fear not on one side, and then there’s a butterfly on the other side. And it said without change, there’d be no butterflies. And it’s just sometimes I just I grab it like I’m in a situation I just hold on to it. Because it’s just that reminder, that physical reminder that I’m not alone, that that the things that I think I have control over I don’t know, and just knowing I don’t almost brings peace just yet, like you said earlier, just knowing that, that what I do is is not ultimately going to change the outcome that God has the outcome. And I think just practically speaking, you know, sometimes my fears are because I don’t I don’t seek out solutions or I don’t seek out seek to understand situations like my husband has to push me to go to the doctor if I think something’s wrong, he’ll just say Honey, just go stop worrying. And every time I go and they’re like, Oh, it’s nothing and I’m fine. But instead you know, I spent three weeks like Is this normal? And I think, I think when we really take the time to just really seek out the answer, you know, there’s knowledge does knowledge can bring can bring a lack of peace to when when there’s something in our lives that’s just really hanging over us. I think knowledge can be power, you know? Yes. I’m not having I’m not getting pregnant for some reason, but but really understanding things and studying more and looking at options and, and, you know, and praying about those options, I think brings more peace than just my my go to, which is crawl under the covers hide and hope that thing is better
35:32
and more. Right.
35:34
So I, I think there’s that. But ultimately, I think the the power to overcome the fears really is really, with the Lord and His love and love ever coming here. For sure.
35:48
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I love that. And I think we all can learn from that, and recognize that when the enemy comes with a mutation, to fear, and fret and be concerned that I mean, God is the only one that doesn’t change. He’s the only one that’s here today, tomorrow, forever, the same. And he’s with you. So whatever it is that you’re going through, whatever the fears that are coming, He is the one that is with you in it, and you can trust him, he is trustworthy. And you may never understand why it’s happening until eternity, right. But our God is good, and he knows what’s going on. And it matters to him. And your heart matters to him. And so I just so appreciate that, getting that encouragement to get before God, get in his word. Because we we grow to understand God more through His Word. So getting in His Word, and being willing to kind of share your situation with him. And allow him to change your heart in it. I think that’s huge.
37:00
I think also pouring, you know, worship music, having a constant positive message flowing in your house, you know, if you’re working, you can have headphones, something like that, just the constant reminder that he’s good. Yeah, so much. So many other things that can get your focus, especially in our social media world. And if we spend too much time on Facebook, like he said, or, or just watching regular TV, there’s any negative messages that really want to push out, you know, push out the truth, push out God’s God’s presence in your life. And when you are constantly refilling that, even if you’re not actively in prayer, having that worship, music flow through you, or even the Bible, just having the Bible read aloud to you through your an app on your phone or something like that. It’s just, it’s amazing how much that can change your day. Absolutely.
37:56
I just am so grateful for Heather’s story and the insights we’ve all gained because of the challenges in her life. And we don’t know why God lets us wait. We don’t. But there’s beautiful fruit that comes from it that can come from it. If we remember that he’s got a plant purpose, he’s got a plan. He knows way more than we do. So I just encourage you, whatever it is that you’re waiting for, whatever, you know, seed of discontentment is there. I just encourage you to talk to God about it. To release that over to him because he can handle it. He can handle your frustration, your your discouragement, all of that he can handle it, but he’s got a bigger plan for your heart than you see right now. He really, really does. And again, it’s all about well, I guess I would rather say it’s about more than this life. This is just the very beginning. The very beginning doesn’t matter how old you are. There’s so much more God wants to do in you and through you. And I just encourage you to think about eternity, and why this season matters for that. God bless you. Thank you for listening. I hope to talk to you again next Tuesday. You can go to the light your marriage.com/ 86 to get all the show notes. Or you can join us on Facebook for a wonderful group of supportive women that are helping each other live wholehearted intimacy in their marriages in their lives and most importantly with their walk with Jesus. Okay, we’ll talk soon. Love you. God bless. Bye.
39:39
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion
