0:02

Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah Rose.

0:18

Hi, and welcome. If this is your first time, I want to say welcome, this is a safe place to talk about sex and marriage, and other topics related. And so today we are diving in, this is our second episode of the orgasm series. So we are talking about female orgasm, why it’s so difficult what it is like, how to do it, how to redefine our thoughts around it. And and that’s what this series is about. And again, if this is your first time, I just want to tell you the structure of the show. So the first Tuesday of every month is a solo show with just you just me talking about either an intimate topic or some topic related to marriage. And then on the second Tuesday of every month for the foreseeable future for a good while, a good few months, we’re going to be talking about orgasms, specifically female orgasm. I talk to an intimacy expert and wife generally about it and and how to do it and all those questions we answer. And the next thing that we do on this show for the last two episodes of the month, our journey interviews where we interview a wife about her journey in marriage, because everyone who is married does it, it’s not something that you can sit on the sidelines, you have to do marriage, and for those that have done it successfully, they have some wisdom to share. So I just encourage you come on by every Tuesday to listen in. It is a worthwhile investment of your time and energy to focus in on marriage. Because you and I both know that we need help in this area. Just thinking about statistics and just how marriage needs support. And and, and that’s what you get here at the dy M Show. So thank you for joining. Let’s talk about today’s topic. So today I have Sandra Sandra Glan on the podcast. And she’s talking about unearthing kind of the wrong expectations we have around orgasm and around sex. And I think she brings a really good perspective because she has talked to many, many wives and couples about their intimate lives when she was writing her book. And she has their perspectives to share with us. So unearthing expectations, and maybe the things that are holding us back from real pleasure and real enjoyment in our marriage. So let’s dive in all right. Well, welcome back to let your marriage listener I’m excited that you’re joining me today. I’ve got a special guest Sandra Guerlain on. Hello, Sandra.

3:11

Good afternoon.

3:12

Good afternoon. I’m really glad that we are chatting. we’ve chatted before on the podcast. And I would encourage the listener to go back and listen to our first conversation. But today, we’re really talking about intimacy, once again, as we often talk about on this podcast, but we’re specifically and if you are a listener, you know that we’ve been talking about female pleasure orgasm in particular, quite a lot recently. And I wanted Sandra on because she’s got a very, what would be the I guess, educational study? She’s done studies on on different things around this and with her book as well. So Sandra, I guess, would you be willing to just kind of introduce yourself a little bit, and be happy. Yeah. And just get the listener acquainted with, with the work that you do right now. So

4:03

probably the most relevant thing for this audience is I’m the co author of a book called sexual intimacy in marriage, which is now in its third edition. And it was co authored with a medical doctor. And he he wanted a book on sex that also gave sort of a theological context for what is marriage because it doesn’t really matter if you’ve got perfect technique if you don’t have a kindness, or character. And so you really need a context for lovemaking. And so that is what we we put together and as a result, I’m a journalist by training, but I’m also a theologian. And so I did many, many interviews with mostly women, but some couples relating to the subject of sexual intimacy. And so that’s part of what sort of undergirds our our topic today. Yes, right. On many interviews of people who got pretty honest about their experiences, and they did so in hopes of something like this, it would be a help to other people to know for one that they’re not alone and to sort of what help or you know what worked. But the other thing is, I’m a theologian, I teach at a seminary and my own personal journey was within fertility and pregnancy loss. And I had to sort of re look at when that happened to us, I had to really look at what is the design for intimacy, there really were just fully production in what’s the bigger picture, what is not just American culture, or American Christian subculture, but what is really timeless, what is true for all cultures. So we’re gonna say something’s biblical, it really needs to transcend culture. And in many ways, we export American views on some of these subjects. So I have also done some work overseas as well in contexts where they have, you know, what we would call female genital mutilation, or we will call it, they would use euphemisms, but that’s really what it is. female circumcision sometimes call but anyway, so that’s, that’s what I bring to this today. I don’t have a lot of answers. But I got lots of stories and some hunches.

6:16

Yeah, yeah, no, that’s great. And I really appreciate, you know, the, the journalist and you and the theologian that’s really wanting to tackle these, these big questions, these big issues. And, and the thing is, as, as seldom as we talk about orgasm in, you know, in, in conversations, I mean, this, that’s what this podcast is about, is having a safe space to talk about it. And so, and that’s what I really wanted to do. But I really love that you said, you know, you talk about intimacy in context. And I’m interested in what you meant by that.

6:54

Well, what I meant by that was, first of all, the ideal being that sexual intimacy happens within marriage, not because God wants to destroy our lives or be a you know, be uptight. But because we are more responsive in a safe atmosphere, and more responsive in a committed relationship, where we’re not telling ourselves I have to perform, or this person is out of here. Yeah, I’m not performing I am expressing intimacy and love. And, and I know that no matter what I express is going to be received with love. Because that’s the context of commitment I have here. I’m not in a commit in a context of sphere, which can really shut you down sexually. I’m not in a context of lack of commitment, which can make you pretend I am in a place where if, if I think he really wants me to have an orgasm, and I don’t, I don’t have to fake it. Yeah, they know that it’s not happening for me. And I can actually decide if, if that’s actually even important to me today. You know, I get to decide, as a woman, as a man, you get to decide what is satisfying to you, the other person doesn’t tell you what satisfies you, you, you decide what satisfying to you. Yeah. So that’s what I meant by context. It’s, first of all, a marriage context, the context of commitment, but then there’s also the context of maturity of spiritual maturity, where, where you’re, you’re going toward love and joy and peace and patience, and commitment, and all of this, all of those things, which, interestingly enough, studies show that if you’re married to a kind person, it’s easier to have a sexual sexually satisfying relationship. And if you yourself are a kind person, then it’s easier to receive love. And you can deal with things like impotency, you know, in a context like that, because your whole relationship is not that thing. That is, that is part of a relationship and you can struggle together, you can have hard conversations together, but it is not itself a relationship.

9:07

I love that. I love that. And I I love that you said in the beginning, just a moment ago, you said you know, we’re more responsive in a safe atmosphere. And so as as women, you know, because that’s primarily who we’re talking to now is his wives on this podcast. I mean, what what would you say? You know, in thinking about orgasm and and thinking about, you know, why it’s why it’s challenging, I guess, is maybe my first question. Yeah. Why can you can you give us some understanding there I

9:45

can that first of all, is part of why it’s challenging is because for the average woman, it takes a lot longer to quote get there than it does for the average man. And so, first of all, if we are in a hurry, then it’s just Not going to happen as often because, you know, like, when we used to do, my co author has now passed, passed on. But when we used to do conferences together, you know, we would ask men, how would ask women, how long do you think it takes the average man to orgasm? And they’d say, seconds, we’d ask the man, how long do you think it takes the average woman and they yell hours. And is they’re speaking in hyperbole, but certainly that is a dynamic that typically it takes women longer. And so if you can just get in your mind that you’re in a hurry, you know, I got to get this over with that can be very distracting if you’re just trying to sort of have the same standard for both you. Another thing that that is different is that most men, it’s not true, all men, but most men are not satisfied sexually, if they have a sexual experience, but they don’t experience orgasm, or is many, many women can be very satisfied. If they’ve given and received love if there’s if they’ve had physical contact, if they’ve had our course during their period. I mean, there are just lots of ways that women have been satisfied. And so that’s part of it, too, is that we, if we tell ourselves, I can only I am only satisfied if I have an orgasm, because that’s the way the world works. Instead of asking what is really satisfying to me, right now. It’s sort of like you’ve, you’ve probably heard the analogy that sometimes you’re satisfied with McDonald’s drive thru, and sometimes you’re satisfied with a seven course meal. And, you know, most of the time, it’s somewhere in between the two. But there are absolutely appropriate times to do fast food. You know, sometimes in your love life, if you’re trying to if you’re going for the seven course meal, but you’re living in a fast food day. It just, it’s, it’s incongruent. So that’s part of it, too. But if you actually want to talk about the physiology of it, many women are trying to experience orgasm during the actual act of intercourse. And most women’s physiology is not made, that they’re going to get the flexion they need at the right level of not too much, you know, so it’s annoying, but get enough actual stimulation where they need it in that position, which is why many, many couples have her go first. And then it says term, and they doubt she doesn’t experience orgasm while they’re having intercourse. Just because physiologically, that’s not how it quote works for most people. Another thing that can really trip people up is thinking they have to have mutual orgasm, which is sort of like trying to time a mutual sneeze, you’re talking about an involuntary response. And trying to set yourself up that this has to be at the same time, it just is not that common for it to happen. So, you know, if you’re a listener, and that’s happening for you, you know, that’s awesome for you. But I got to say that you’re not the typical experience. And so to make, make timing of involuntary response, your goal you are setting yourself up for failure.

13:11

So it’s like, yeah, well, it seems like so far, you’ve given us a lot of good, like, we need to re re determine our expectations. You know, even you know, you were just talking about mutual orgasm as as an expectation that really, maybe that’s not something that we should even be striving for. Yeah, I love that you kind of under you know, did a couple of things like that. You also said that, you know, a lot of times we as women don’t need to orgasm to still feel close and sexually fulfilled. And so having an expectation that, you know, why not? Why am I not orgasm, or I need to orgasm every time or my husband wants me to orgasm every time. Maybe that’s not what we should be striving for. And so

13:58

what lately Yeah, go ahead. And often, often he the husband wants his wife to orgasm in a loving relationship. Often he does so because he is thinking she’s like him. And he’s thinking he has not satisfied her. So yeah. Okay, babe, I am, I am satisfied with you. You have satisfied me. I’m thrilled. You know, I I didn’t need to go that far tonight. Whether I’m tired or I’m distracted, or I don’t have the time or whatever reason, or or I was just so satisfied with what we did. I don’t need that right now. If if, if that’s the truth, and you say so that you’re taking the pressure off of both of you, in many ways, because usually the pressure from the husband comes not because he wants to be married to a sex queen. But because he feels in some way like he’s a failure. If he has not given her what she’s given him. In many cases, the guy is a good guy and he is trying to be fair, and he’s trying to satisfy and his wife and he’s trying to meet needs and you might even feel like he himself was a sailor. So you’re can’t help her quote, get there. And so if we can tell them when it’s appropriate that, hey, I’m good, really, I’m telling you the truth. I’m good. You’re awesome, babe, then that can take some of the pressure off too, because some of our ability to orgasm comes as a result of feeling pressured. Yeah, experiencing just the pleasure being lost in the pleasure, your brain goes to this isn’t happening. It’s not happening. What am I gonna do? Right? I’m gonna make it happen. And that in itself can become a major distraction to pleasure instead of just enjoying the pleasure.

15:43

Yeah. And isn’t it true that, you know, a wife that is feeling that way would almost have an aversion to sex in in times? Because they just feel all this pressure, right?

15:55

Yep. Yes. So this whole downward spiral? Right, right. I don’t want to go there, because I’m not going to, quote succeed. Therefore, I don’t want to set us both up for disappointment that I, you know, I feel inadequate, therefore, I don’t want to do this thing. And so just deciding, I’m going to be honest, no matter what, I’m not going to fake it, I’m not going to lie, I’m going to tell the truth. I’m also going to let my partner know that he’s very satisfied may just that we’re going to redefine what satisfaction is. And I get to decide what satisfying to me. Instead of him deciding when he has satisfied me.

16:33

I’m going to decide what’s satisfying to me. I love that.

16:36

Yep. It’s not because you’re being selfish. It’s actually a loving act. Yeah, I could take the pressure off of both of you that if you if you are satisfied in this particular moment, without organized orgasm then been phased out and be content with this is good. Yeah,

16:55

absolutely. What other expectations do you think we need to kind of realign when we’re thinking about orgasm as when women?

17:05

Well, you know, sort of alluded to the the mutual satisfaction expectation. There’s, there’s also the expectation that if you’re, if you’re competing with porn, your husband wife, and you have an expectation on yourself that you have to outperform the Sex Kitten. And it’s one of the many things that porn takes away from a marriage. Yeah. And so again, to to communicate, I am again, I’m not, I am not responding now in a safe environment, I am responding an environment where I feel constantly compared to an airbrush picture, or an airbrush video, or, you know, a standard that isn’t actually real. I was interviewing a woman who had multiple partners before she became a believer and, and married. And she said, with multiple partners, she said, I lied all the time about my, how many orgasms I’d had, she’s like, are they the guys I was with thought I was having multiple multiples. That I feel like she said, I wonder what I did, as you know them if they got married later, is if they’re, if they’re holding up their wives, you know, comparing them to that, you know, me, because a woman I’ve been with, and she said, I gave them a fake experience, they didn’t know how to lie, and I’m not going to go back and find them and tell my lie. But you know, what it does is that it’s that again, it creates a difficulty for the wife in that situation, because she’s trying to be honest with her husband have an actual intimate relationship. And in his mind, you know, she’s being compared to a standard that wasn’t actually real. But again, it was in a context of performance. So I think another expectation we put on ourselves is that we have to somehow measure up to that if that’s, you know, one of the dynamics in our marriage and it’s, it’s just another reason to wait, we’re talking in our book, we talk about how living the way, God in His grace assigned us to do this. living that way is is a, you know, reading the Bible and applying it is like getting a map to a minefield. It’s not sort of can wreck your fine it’s actually for the can keep from destroying you. Whether it being destroyed by porn, whether it’s by being destroyed by extramarital sex. That is not to say the grace can’t cover those things. Grace can cover those things. And there can be healing and you can grow but again, that that requires repentance. It requires honesty, it requires brokenness, it requires difficult conversation. And it’s definitely you can’t you can’t pray overnight your way out of a situation you lived yourself into some kind of fun, it’s sort of like erosion and soil. You know, those those pathways are there in your brain and you’ve created them. I where he’s created them, so it’s just going to take some time for those to get fresh thought. And that’s just part of the consequence of running into those landmines we were not designed to run into.

20:07

Yeah, yeah. And I love, you know, we kind of started off this whole conversation with the context. And you said it again, have a safe atmosphere. And you know that that word safety, I think is really important when we’re talking about orgasm. For women, especially, because, you know, like, like what extramarital affairs and even, you know, my myself and I’m sure others listening when you know, your husband’s past, and even if he’s not been unfaithful to you in the present or anything, just because you know, that he’s had experience before you can, can erode some, some feelings of safety. But that can be built. I think that that safety needs to be built in, in your marriage. How, you know, if we were to try to talk about that in the context, or talking about orgasm, I mean, how does that safety and orgasm kind of play out together? Do you? Do you understand what I’m getting at?

21:08

I think I do. Uh, let me let me, let me try to tackle that. The conversations need to happen, but a conversation about orgasm in marriage. And if you feel unsafe about your husband’s past, all of that should not happen in the context of you lying there negative bet. That conversation that could happen, maybe on a Sunday morning with coffee and bathrobes, you know, in the, in the bright light of day, in a sunroom or something, when you say we need to have a hard conversation that we need to have it because I love you. Because take this as a step toward you. And it’s really important, I think to understand that often, when you have a difficult conversation with your spouse, things get worse before they get better. Because it’s just like opening a wound and draining it, it’s going to hurt before it can start getting stuck or tissue. And so often we start the process of moving toward our spouses. And when that conversation contains more, we’re doesn’t know where to go where I wanted to go. Or if I learned things that hurt more, I decide I’m not doing that again. But it was it was actually a move towards what it’s just you got to you know, you got to during the past before you can get to the health. And so just even knowing going in this might be really hard conversation. And that might be a time to bring in a therapist is you know, but just knowing that you you need to have this conversation or many conversations about this is what I need to feel safe. And, you know, most husbands want their wives to be responsive. And you know, if you approach him with, I feel like I’m having difficulty responding to you. And I really want to be very responsive to you. But here’s what feels to me like an obstacle, how can we work on this together? Here’s what I feel like I need from you, I need to feel from you. If I’ve never orgasm again, or if you’re one of the 10% of women who never had you, I need to hear from you. That I delight you and that and you think I’m beautiful and wonderful. And if that never happened? Yeah, I recognize you might be disappointed that never happens. I can still enthrall you and be enough for you. Even if even if I never get there. But you do that that’s 1.1 thing. I just need to hear from you that if you’re not there and you don’t feel that way that you’re willing to work toward thinking that even thinking that way to me because again it it, it will help take the pressure off of me if I don’t feel like I have to perform that everything that I do for you in with you is received as a gift of love and not as in insufficient. Hmm, yep,

23:43

yep. Yep. I love that. And I think that as you went to before is the honesty, you know, being honest with your husband and in forging that safety in your marriage, because a lot of times we pent up all these fears and these concerns and then we’re not we’re inhibited in lovemaking. And it does require those honest conversations like you said outside of the bedroom someplace where you know we can actually discuss this and feelings don’t get that you don’t associate that with a with lovemaking right you you don’t want that.

24:17

You’re also not you’re also not trying to have this conversation after in the middle of a very frustrating lovemaking experience, right because then emotions are running high. self consciousness is running high fears writing high failures, reading high, not a great context for that kind of an honest conversation. And can it can really add to the negative association. I think another thing that can keep women from experiencing orgasm orgasm is if they experience physical pain as part of the intercourse experience because again, they’re you know, you start associating pain with the whole experience. So if you got pain, get to your doc and keep working with your doc there. There are ways to help pain but not if you’re not going to get bulk So that that is something to bring your OBGYN in on.

25:06

Yeah, and you know, it’s funny, I actually, I actually experienced quite a lot of pain when I was first married when in physical intercourse, because I was, but it was actually it was all it took a long time. But that part of me feeling safe in my marriage actually caused me to be able to relax in other areas. So it, it was a long process, but through actually a book intended for pleasure, they have kind of like a guided training session, I guess, is the best way to say it between a husband and wife for them to become orgasmic. So it was really an interesting training, but I but I think it’s helpful for anyone who’s experienced intercourse, pain, but they don’t think it’s necessarily a health related issue. It might be something about mental, you know, mental barriers, and that’s what I had. So. So yeah, no, I really appreciate that, I guess, you know, in thinking about orgasm, when you were talking about how we can decide what’s pleasurable for us, you know, as a wife, I think, sometimes we think that we need to do certain movements, or we need to do certain things so he can achieve orgasm and you know, to support him, and we completely forget that we are a participant to enjoy ourselves. Yeah. What do you think

26:46

about a lot of couples that express the ability to orgasm, talk about taking turns. And in fact, in fact, some couples who are able to orgasm at the same time, so you know, it’s, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be. Because if you take turns, then you have to kind of shining moments and your time together, you you get, he gets to enjoy his sensation, while she’s enjoying that he’s enjoying the sensations, and vice versa, rather than, you know, one big explosive, and we’re finished. So, again, that’s usually in those couples, the wife, quote goes first, because then she tends to take longer, and he tends to not take longer, what you don’t want is, you know, you satisfy him and you’ve lost the direction, and he can’t really do much for you. Yeah, but if she’s satisfied first, then then that can go as fast as he wants to go. So that’s, that’s just one thing that couples report has helped them.

27:52

What do you think as you were talking to wives about, about sex about intercourse, bad orgasm? I mean, were there any surprises that you came across, specifically that you could share with us?

28:04

I think really just the biggest surprise has been in the last 20 years, as more women have written on this subject and talked about this subject. It more and more people have said, you know, orgasm isn’t happening 100% of the time here. There were a lot of books on sex written by men, and we weren’t getting men and women’s perspective on sex. And so the biggest surprise was how few women were actually experiencing it during the act of intercourse. That, that just a lot of women said, we just we don’t have any success that way, because physiologically that just doesn’t work for us. And initially, it was sort of actually kind of socially unacceptable to say that people felt a little bit like failures, even saying it like, wow, you admitted that you must like not really walk in the bedroom. Wow. And for to find out that that’s actually kind of normal was it was a surprise at the time. And you know, we’ve heard it much more in the last, you know, 10 years that yep, that’s, that’s normal for a lot of people.

29:10

Yeah, yeah. Well, and when you talked about outer course, what would you know, if someone is not really familiar with what that means? Or what that would be like? Can you just kind of encouraged her?

29:24

So since most women report that they can’t actually experience orgasm, while during the act of actual intercourse, they they talk about how they actually experienced orgasm. And for many outer courses, so penis isn’t in the vagina. It’s other places where trouble and it requires guiding him and you and you know, the wife may not even know what she finds pleasurable. You know, most guys can tell you what they find pleasurable, but for most women, it can even change from week to week. You know, we every day of our month is different with different hormones every morning he wakes up next year, he’s very two different woman. And the challenge, the challenge for a wife is she herself may not be able to guide him because she doesn’t know what’s gonna work. So it basically outer course is playing around until she reaches orgasm, if she wants to, before having intercourse. So that then, you know, when it’s his turn, he used usually likes to go kind of fast, and it solves the problem of premature ejaculation. Yeah, because you’re not, you know, he’s he’s not trying to hang on, hang on until she’s got married. She’s not getting there. She’s already been there. And yeah, so he can, he can just focus on his own sensations while she enjoys it. He’s enjoying it.

30:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Very nice. Okay, well, um, I want to just make sure that our listeners know how to follow you online and where to get your book. Can you tell us Okay,

31:00

so my website is Aspire to.com asp IRM number two.com. And the book is available to spend anywhere books are sold. Amazon certainly carries it. And it’s sexual and sexual intimacy in marriage is the name of the book.

31:16

Awesome. Okay, well, thank you so much, Sandra, this has been awesome.

31:20

My pleasure talking to you. You too.

31:27

Very cool. Well, I hope that you have been encouraged and some of those lies that the world has told us and maybe seen in movies and wherever we’ve picked them up from different places that just aren’t true about orgasm about female orgasm and, and I hope that you’ll take those into your marriage and take those in those truths. And what’s really happening and, and how women really are and how they really function. And and use that truth in your marriage rather than the lies that the world is told us. So God bless you. I am excited for our next orgasm series coming up the second Tuesday of the month. Otherwise, I will be talking to you next Tuesday, we have got a journey interview, which is really great. And I’m excited to talk to you then God bless you. I am praying for you. And would you just pray for the listeners that are listening to this? You know, the coolest thing about this podcast is it’s got lots of topics that are really not available elsewhere. There’s really I haven’t found such a depth of information on a lot of the topics we talk about. So the cool thing is that draws people in that way. But the best part about it is it points people to Jesus. And so I hope that you will pray that when people listen, they’ll be pointed to the truth and the most important reason we’re on this earth today anyway. So yes, sex is important and good and our marriages are awesome. And God wants them to be but most important, it’s to glorify Him. So anyway, I hope that’ll be your prayer. Go ahead and explore orgasm some more, and I will talk to you next Tuesday. Love you so much. Bye bye.

33:13

Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion