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0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:19
Oh, right, well, thank you for being here. And I don’t know about you. But every time the dy M, music comes on, I do a little dancing. You know, it helps me to be gay, pepped up and excited to talk to you. But it also makes me happy. And there’s a lot in the Bible, about the joy of the Lord is your strength. There’s a lot about dancing before the Lord, there’s actually just good stuff that happens when you dance, and I didn’t grow up doing dancing, that wasn’t something I did. And definitely, that wasn’t you know, I wouldn’t dance to, you know, secular music. That’s and that’s, you know, something that kind of, is hard for me to kind of grapple with now, but the cool thing is, nowadays, so easy to YouTube, things like Christian reggae songs are so fun to dance to. And you can just YouTube any kind of, you know, new culture, you know, new ethnicity, that maybe you’re not used to even being around, and you can just dance to it. And it’s just this really amazing opportunity to worship with people all over the world, just by listening to music from their country. So you could do worship music from Tanzania, for example, or worship music, you know, in Mexico, just these different areas, because God loves diversity. You know, he made the nations of the world, every people skin color, tribe tongue, was made by his own hand, so he loves it. So that’s fun for me is to connect, you know, in worshipping My God, through all these different ways of enjoying. Yeah, really enjoying life enjoying, who got is worshiping Him, and enjoying that diversity that he brings to this world that he designed. Interesting. I wasn’t going to say this exactly. But I’ll mention in just a second, actually, who we talk about today on this show, is the wonderful Song of Solomon, lady. And the reason I mentioned all that about dancing is because valuing your pleasure is really important. And I think as Christian wives, we often think of that as the very last lowest priority. Everyone else has to be served first. I mean, we’re Martha, right? We’re the ones that’s running around getting everything ready. Well, Mary is lazily sitting at Jesus’s feet. And we’re complaining that Mary’s doing that. And then Jesus is like, hold on, Martha, I love you. But you’re distracted. And Mary’s doing the right thing. And she can keep doing it. He uses different words. But that’s, I think modern day, meaning they’ll probably with a lot more love and compassion than I just said. Anyway, the point is that us women so often get out of this idea of pleasure, and into this idea of work, and doo doo doo. But there’s a whole chapter in the Bible, which is all about the woman’s pleasure in sex with her husband. It’s awesome. So that’s what we’re gonna be talking about. It’s interesting that I was talking about diversity, kind of off the cuff. But turns out that the Shulamite wife, one of the verses in the Song of Solomon says, I am dark, but lovely. So she actually talks about her own skin color is dark. And so it’s just very interesting to be thinking about, you know, God made her lovely, like it does just doesn’t. God has made our skin or ethnicity or diversity in his image. We are all part of his image and, you know, exposing ourselves and understanding others cultures and others, backgrounds and races. You know, there’s a lot going on in this world, but for us as children of God, to be the ones to be holding hands with our brothers and sisters, and loving the way that Jesus loved. I mean, that’s That’s what’s gonna be like it’s always it’s all the nation’s tribe and tongue worshipping Jesus. That’s what it’s gonna be like. And so let’s do that here. And now, let’s be those missionaries, let’s be the, the lovers that God wants us to be of other people. And diversity is huge.

5:20
It’s incredibly passionate in my heart right now, because my church is really focusing in on how important diversity is, especially with what’s going on nationally and globally. You know, and from year one, this podcast has been International, which by God’s grace, he’s spreading in the way he wants to, I don’t look at the numbers anymore. But like I said, you’re you’re one it was, it was over at different countries, not just the US. So I want listeners, wherever you are to really get this that, that lovers of Jesus are lovers of people, regardless of of background of race, or ethnicity, of culture, of social status, of economic status, of, of all of these statuses. Jesus is a lover of those people. And so we as followers of Jesus should also be lovers of those people. So, circling back to having pleasure in intimacy insects, the dark yet lovely Shulamite bride knew that pleasure in physical intimacy was something she deserved, was something she was worthy of was something she had the freedom to pursue and enjoy. So I talked to this wonderful woman named Dr. Julie Slattery on our podcast today, and I look forward to chatting with you in just a moment.

7:18
All right, delight your marriage listener, welcome back. I am excited because I have a wonderful wife and intimacy expert, Dr. Julie Slattery. Great. Well, welcome, Julie. How are you today?

7:32
I’m doing well. Thanks for having me on.

7:35
Absolutely. Absolutely. I’ve actually wanted to have you on for a while now. So I’m really glad that you got a chance to.

7:40
So tell me, if you wouldn’t mind introducing yourself and tell us a little bit about your day to day life?

7:48
Well, my day to day life is different depending on the day, which is what makes it fun. But let’s see, I can tell you, I’ve been married to my husband for 21 years. And we have three sons. And they are 2018 and 14. And my training is I’m a clinical psychologist. But really my passion is addressing women’s issues from a biblical perspective, helping people just to understand, how does God’s truth intersect with the real problems I’m facing, and about five and a half years ago, started a ministry called authentic intimacy with Linda Dillo. And the ministry is really about tackling issues of intimacy and sexuality, and particularly addressing the kind of women’s issues related to sexuality. So, day to day life, like I said, is different. It’s it’s a challenge. It’s fun. It’s exciting. So that’s a little bit about me.

8:47
That’s awesome. And when you talk about the ministry, what is the kind of day to day work of it? What does that look? Yeah,

8:56
yeah, well, we consider the ministry to be more of a teaching or discipleship ministry. So it is national or international in terms of where it’s going. But we do a weekly podcast addressing just different issues related to women’s issues, sexuality, marriage, intimacy, write books, Bible studies, do a lot of speaking conferences, and just an online presence, where women can kind of get information through our blog, through the other things that we’re creating can ask questions. So that’s kind of what life looks like.

9:33
Yeah, that’s awesome. I love that. Well, can you tell us a little bit about you and your husband’s personalities?

9:41
Yeah, sure. Like a lot of couples, our personalities are quite different from each other. So we’re kind of that story of opposites attract. My husband, Mike, is type A or type B personality. He’s fun loving, very relational, extroverted. He was raised in New York, early childhood where you are. And then south Florida. His, his father was in the police department. And I’m more than the Type A personality like driven, very much a thinker introvert. I like to be alone or have one on one conversations. So came from a big family in the Midwest. So we spent 21 years learning from each other. And I think now when we look at our personalities compared to where we were when we first met, we’ve really learned how to how to be more balanced together. So it’s been a fun journey, sometimes frustrating, but overall a good thing.

10:45
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love that. Because it’s almost become something where you complement each other. It’s like puzzle pieces fitting in, you’re lacking where he’s strong and vice versa. And, yeah, I love kind of learning that rather than, rather than the understanding of we’re so different. We can’t connect. It’s, you know, I’m so grateful. He’s got what I don’t have.

11:08
Yeah, you’re right. But that’s really a mindset. I’ve spent years in the category of being frustrated that he wasn’t more like me. And wishing he would be more like me. And then God had to really soften my heart humbled me and show me how I need I need the differences that my husband brings.

11:30
Yeah, yep. I hear that so much. Yeah. Well, tell um, if you could a scripture or a quote, maybe that’s meant a lot to you over the years.

11:43
Wow, a scripture or a quote, there’s so many. No, I think it really depends on the season. Our ministry really was started from a scripture in Isaiah 61, verses one through three. And that really talks about why Jesus came to preach good news to the poor, to find out the brokenhearted, to set captives free to exchange, you know, our grief for joy, and, you know, just our beauty and for our ashes. And that’s a very familiar verse. A lot of people don’t know where to find it. But when the Lord first put this ministry in my heart, that was a verse that just was running through my mind, and I don’t even know where to find it, I had to google it. But that has meant a lot to me, just because I get to see that every day, I get to see that God’s Word and His presence, really do set captives free, and really do take away our grief and our mourning, and you know, give us joy in the midst of difficulty. And so that’s a promise. And that’s why we do what we do. It’s not necessarily just to help people have better marriages, that’s great. But the spiritual redemption and healing of knowing who Jesus says, and knowing the power of His word, is what’s life giving.

13:07
Now, I love that. Yeah, that’s so true. Yeah. Well, would you tell a story of a difficult season or a struggle in your marriage that you’ve overcome? And how and,

13:22
yeah, yeah, I know that your passion is to talk about intimacy in marriage, and even sexual intimacy, which is a lot of what we do as well. And so my husband and I have had seasons where that particular area of our marriage has been really difficult on everything from the differences between us to having three young children. And that was a really tough season where I had no energy, no interest in sexual intimacy really began to feel like, this was just a chore that was constantly at my doorstep. And at that same time, my husband was struggling with pornography kind of off and on. And I know that this story is like, it’s like what most young couples are dealing with. And so I would find that this was a struggle, and we fight about it. And I’d wonder, you know, what’s wrong with me would make me feel even more pressure, like I have to be available all the time, or it’s my fault. And so really got stuck in kind of a bad cycle, with our marriage related to that. And, you know, I found over the years as God has brought healing, that that, again, God redeems, even though struggles that we had a lot of the work that I do, a lot of the writing that I do, around sexuality, comes from really understanding some of those common temptations and struggles and patterns that couples get into because we were we were in it, even though I’m a psychologist, even though I was counseling other women, and, you know, behind our doors, that’s the kind of things that we were really battling

15:00
And I can imagine that would have been really challenging to write to be counseling, and then kind of, in your own marriage encountering that? Would you? I mean, how would you kind of handle it? Would you kind of think back to your clinical, you know, studies and how you should approach it? Or was it kind of like, then you were just using old patterns that have been ingrained since childhood? And just reverting back to those?

15:30
Yeah, you know, I noticed that anytime I tried to bring in, like my clinical knowledge, it was forced, if that makes sense, kind of like, okay, I’m the Doctor, I’m going to fix us, I’m going to fix you, here’s how we are supposed to communicate. And for us, that really wasn’t super effective. And it probably, if anything, made my husband feel more alienated. And, you know, a lot of times what happens in this cycle. And again, I know a lot of couples can relate to that is the woman, and my case, me, becomes kind of self righteous, like, I’m the one that understands marriage. I’m the one that understands what true intimacy is, sex really isn’t that important? How dare you look at other women, you know, you’re ruining our marriage. And for me to take kind of a clinical perspective, even put me more in the position of being the self righteous person. And so, really, for me, turning point was when God just began to humble me, and it’ll give me true empathy for the things my husband was struggling with, really helped me understand why sexual intimacy is so important to my husband, in terms of sharing that journey with me. God started to skin front, my selfishness, my fears, and, as is so often the case, you think your husband’s the problem. And then when you really get before the word, he begins to show you that, that there’s a lot of work in your own heart that needs to be done. And so for us, it was healing really came more through that journey of learning to extend mercy and grace to each other learning that each one of us have, you know, hang ups and patterns and lies and wounds that need to be addressed, and that the enemy will use those difficulties to divide us. And when we began to approach this problem as a team, and to say, hey, you know, God put us together as a team, let’s really be honest with with what needs to happen and what we’re struggling with, and how we need to change. You know, that’s, that’s where we really started to see victory.

17:43
So if if we go back to the kind of some of the details if you don’t mind of what you guys were struggling with, when when you said that, you know, you felt like it was a chore? I mean, how do you think women get to that place of, of feeling that way? I mean, obviously, that’s a very common way to think about it. But I just wonder if we dissected that a little bit, when it gives us a little fresh insight on why do we get to that place of because before the wedding, we don’t think I mean, we’re excited?

18:18
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think, you know, there are a few dynamics that go into this. And I will also say, and I’m sure that you’ve heard from your your community that there are a lot of women that have the shoe on the other foot, who they’re the ones that want sexual intimacy, and their husband is avoiding it. So that’s a whole nother issue. But, but for those of us who find ourselves resenting sex and wanting to avoid it, I think some common themes that lend itself to that, first of all, female sexuality is way more complicated than male sexuality, in terms of our emotional readiness, even our physiology is much more complicated. And because of that, it takes a woman much longer to even understand how to enter into sexual pleasure, herself. And so her husband’s trying to figure out, how do I please my wife, and, and he asks her and she’s like, I don’t know, I don’t know what I like. And what I like six months ago, is different from what I like today. And, and so because it’s so complicated, I think a lot of couples start revolving the sexual relationship around the husband’s needs, because his are obvious. He knows when he wants sex. He knows what will what will please him, and he knows what will bring release for him. And so and so the couple instead of saying, let’s pursue how we find pleasure together, they begin just saying, let’s pursue how to meet the husband’s need, and and a woman’s need a lot of times is much more underground. She’s not even really aware of it herself. She just knows she’s frustrated. And, and so they develop this pattern of kind of the urgent thing is what he’s asking for and what He desires. And, and her the journey of her really becoming a sexually satisfied women woman gets put on the back shelf. So I think that’s a real thing. And then, and then once you start establishing that pattern, every time there’s a sexual advance, the woman hears, I want you to please me, I want you to meet my need. And she begins, you know, even if it’s not true, she begins believing, you know, that’s all he wants me for, I’m just object, he doesn’t really love me, this isn’t fun for me. And that negative thinking just kind of takes on a life of its own. And then like, in my case, she can start develop developing physical problems, like, painful intercourse, because the whole, the whole idea of sex now becomes, I’m required to give something that isn’t pleasurable for me.

21:05
Yeah, I feel like that’s a huge one, where, where sex just begins the beginning, even, like you said, just the beginning stages where, you know, he really is just, maybe he’s just being playful and you know, excited to have his sexy wife walking around the house, and suddenly she thinks it’s an advanced and, you know, she has to give, you know, and serve Him and, you know, really be thinking about him, rather than enjoying their time together, potentially, or so, to kind of underscore or dive into that a little bit more when you said that, you know, revolving sex around her husband’s needs, versus kind of exploring the sexual intimacy journey together. Let’s say a wife has gone into this. I mean, that’s where I definitely was 100% was, you know, started out thinking that sex was going to be about me realize I don’t want it very often. And then it was all about my husband. So then how do you kind of shift into this place of, okay, how do we explore this together? How do we make intimacy joyful? And, you know, fulfilling for both of us?

22:27
Yeah, really? Good question. Yeah, I think somewhat, there’s an underlying belief that I think particularly a lot of women of faith have, that, that God isn’t okay with them being sexual. And guys don’t struggle with this as much. Just kind of feel like, you know, a godly woman should be restrained sexually, and she should be a servant to her husband. And, you know, this really shouldn’t be about her. And, you know, it, we we’ve just gotten so many messages, even the silence from the church on female sexuality, it’s like, If a woman wants it, there must be something wrong with her. And so I think there are a lot of women who, underneath at all, really don’t feel permission to enjoy sex in marriage, or at least enjoy it very much. And so because of that, they they’re restrained. And they really believe that their most pleasing God and most pleasing their husband when they make it about him, and and what really should, you know, showed me that my thinking in that area was wrong was studying the Song of Solomon. Because in the book of the Song of Solomon, the wife actually is more more initiating sex than the husband, like she’s fantasizing about her husband, she’s planning like a sexual Renee boo, she’s all into her pleasure. And God’s good with that. And so for me, I had to really get that mental shift of, you know, what really pleases the Lord the most. And what pleases my husband the most is when I’m enjoying this as much as he is. Or even more so. And so I needed that permission to say that this is a God honoring thing to pursue great pleasure and passion and our intimacy. And then once you have the permission, I think the permission really began to tell me that I need to make it a priority. That wasn’t okay. Just go year after year with this kind of being a blob part of our marriage.

24:37
Yeah, it’s so true. When you read the song of Solomon’s you’re like wow, and she’s she is kind of the primary speaker in the conversation. She I think it doesn’t she talk about like going into the wilderness and

24:55
I mean, think about it this this way. She is the woman in the Bible who has the most recorded words. Really? Yeah. It’s like there’s no other woman that is given more ink than I could I call her this smokin hot mama. That’s kind of my nickname for her. But, but she has more said about her than the Proverbs 31. Woman, you know more than than Ruth. And, you know, like these these heroines that we study, and we love and we should, but we totally ignore this lady in the Song of Solomon, because we feel awkward about the message she’s giving us.

25:35
Yeah, I love that. And I love how you mentioned that. It is it’s awkward, you know. And so we ignore that rather than consider the wisdom of what, why Sangha Solomon’s is included in our holy scriptures. What’s God giving us through her dialogue? I wanted to ask you now, I think it is wise for wives to kind of be in this mode of thinking, okay, when was the last time we made love? Let’s make sure move around schedules and make sure that we can do it again soon. Especially if she’s not craving sex as much as he is. That’s good. However, I wonder what can she do to make pleasure more of her craving? You know, have you found this as kind of a common thing? And? And further, what can you do about it?

26:32
Yeah, well, you know, first of all, it is a common thing. But second of all, I don’t think that pleasure has to be the primary aim. And most women, even if they have a really great sex life with their husband will say, the thing I like the most about sex is just the closeness we feel. And then includes the foreplay, it includes you teasing, you know, and includes just, even the afterglow of being together and knowing that we shared this, men usually don’t say that, you know, they say it’s the pleasure. But But women like the whole journey, but where I think it’s a problem is where there’s no pleasure, and where, you know, it’s just, it’s, it’s a disappointment, and it’s putting up with it, because you have to, and so women can find pleasure in the planning and in the anticipation. And even in the, in the remembering that we had this special time together. But but there is a sense to where I think most women because of some of the things we’ve already talked about, but also because for a lot of women sex is really triggering of anxiety, painful memories, painful experiences, they and Shane, they learned to kind of this is kind of a psychology word, but they learn to disassociate themselves from sexual pleasure. And what I mean by that is, when things start heating up, they have a way of kind of getting their mind almost escaped what’s really happening in the moment, through fantasy through just kind of numbing themselves. And that’s a defense mechanism. And when you continually do that, and there are women who will do that throughout their whole marriage without realizing they’re doing it, you you feel like you’re missing something. And so that’s the encouragement, like, okay, at my encouragement to you, if you find yourself in that situation is don’t stop there. You know, that just means there’s more healing. And there’s more work that you need to do to really understand this gift, and to work through some of the things that maybe have caused pain in the past. But, but continue to pursue the fullness of what God intended us to be.

28:52
So this disassociating, you said, that’s, that’s what it’s called? disassociating from the experience? Uh huh. Yeah. Is that the same as you know, when women might be in the midst of making love and their mind just, you know, start circling around their shopping list and their to do so you’re in there? And, I mean, is that a sense of disassociation? Or is that simply not kind of being mindful or being in the moment or?

29:22
Yeah, it can be so like, the way that I view it, because it helps me to kind of put metaphors to this. It’s almost as if, like, you have a race to run in sexual intimacy, and there’s a starting line, and there’s a finish line that you hope to get to. And along the way, are these are the stop signs or yield signs or even shortcuts that keep you from finishing the race? And so some of those stop signs or roadmaps that you’re you’re trying to get through are I just can’t get my mind there like I’m so stressed about everything else. Are the the kids listening in the next door? You know what if I forget about the orthodontist appointment tomorrow, I mean, women are just they have a hard time focusing on the moment. So that doesn’t necessarily have to be dissociation. It’s almost like more sexual add, where we just really have trouble being present in the moment. And that takes effort. But this, yeah, but disassociation is really more related to even unconscious fear that, that if I’m fully present in this moment, something bad could happen. It’s too vulnerable, I don’t want to lose control. And so it’s, it’s very unconscious, but it’s a way of saying, You can have my body, but I’m protecting pieces of me. And so some women will almost describe it like an out of body experience, or their mind just going somewhere else that feels like a distraction or feel safe. And particularly again, if you’ve experienced sexual abuse, or really any form of sexual trauma. You This is maybe how you’ve learned to cope with it.

31:11
What I mean, what are some steps that you can advise a wife that’s going through that? Are there certain things like, I would imagine going to therapy is a huge one. Yeah. But are there like ways that she can kind of practice at home that she can kind of move through this?

31:30
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, first of all, is just identifying that as you’re listening, you’re like, what? Yeah, that’s me. She just described our marriage. And so that awareness is huge. And, and then the desire to say, I don’t know what it takes, but I want to get beyond that, you know, I really want to know what what intimacy is what, what sexual intimacy is not just sexual activity. And, and, yeah, and then the next step would be to identify what we call triggers. So it can be being touched a certain way it can be, for example, your husband gets on top of you that can be triggering for a lot of women, oral sex is triggering, like things that that, that you can’t explain it, but they just make you feel like something’s wrong, they make you feel shame, they make you feel afraid. And so in therapy, a counselor would help you identify some of these triggers. And then what they may also help you do then is kind of to talk through some of the memories or sensations that those triggers are bringing up. And, and then what you can begin to do is you can begin to share with your husband, these are sort of words or things that trigger me if we can avoid those for now. Or even if I have a code word, I can say that kind of redirects, sexual intimacy. And I’ve heard from women who will say things, like, having sex with the lights on helps, because I can look at my husband and I can know that I’m safe. You know, even just having phrases that you might repeat through your mind, you know, this is my husband, he loves me. Yeah, you know, he, I’m safe here. And again, therapy can really help putting some of those things in place. But I’ve I know, women who have been through like the most horrendous traumas you can imagine. And going through the healing process. They’re really on the other side of this where they can really say this is I’m experiencing the fullness and the beauty of what God intended this to be

33:38
a woman that is, you know, experiencing disassociation. Do you have a resource specifically that you could point her to? Or? Yeah, maybe,

33:51
yeah, one that I would recommend is called restoring the pleasure. And it’s, it’s by a couple cliff and Joyce Penner, I think they may have been on your show. But yeah, yeah. So what they do in that particular book is is more of a workbook, and they have exercises like, like learning, safe touch, learning, to experience sexual touch, within a safe context, with an exercise called sensitive focus. So that’s probably the most practical in terms of identifying triggers and learning to touch in a way that isn’t threatening. But, but even, you know, going through some of the deeper healing of sexual abuse recovery, if that’s your story, Dan allander stuff is really good. The wounded heart healing the wounded heart. Yeah, so those are some good resources as well.

34:48
Okay. Awesome. I’ll have these in the show notes. So that’ll help people to look at them. Dan Ellender okay. Yeah, I’ve definitely heard of his work, but I haven’t read those. Okay. So, um, a couple things I wanted to kind of go back to that you mentioned was I was, I was looking at this just the other day actually, the Proverbs 31. Woman. And I was just like, kind of reading through and I don’t see anywhere where she enjoys herself. Yeah, it feels like from from dark, early morning to evening at night. She is just working. Yeah. And I was like, I was talking to the Lord. I was like, how did you make a women who I feel like intrinsically, we are supposed to be enjoying life. Like, that’s just that makes us make love. We enjoy love making if we are kind of at peace and other areas of our life if we’re not stressed out all the time. Yeah. What are your thoughts?

35:56
Yeah, that’s a really good observation. And, you know, I think I think one thing related to Proverbs 31 woman that has helped me because I went through many years where I just hated that woman. Like, you know, this. And back then they didn’t even have social media. Now we have, you know, the comparison of, I make my homemade baby food. And, you know, I use cloth diapers, and it’s like, okay, I’m just a big loser. Yeah. So, but the Proverbs 31 woman, if you just read it, as it’s written, just pours that Gill on, and, like you said, takes away our ability to feel any pleasure or any permission to rest. Yeah. So that, but the thing that helped me with that, and my mom was somebody that told me this, that this is the description of this woman at the end of her life. This isn’t her day to day, this is her husband reflecting at the end of their life. This is the character of a of this godly woman. And she wasn’t that when they first got married. And she wasn’t that in the middle of her 30s. This is maybe when she’s 60, or 70. And her family’s reflecting on the fact that she always put other people before her and she worked so hard, and she was creative, and she was assertive, and she was so well respected. And so when you put it in that context, I’m not a proverbs 31 woman, if you follow me around for a day or two. But hopefully at the end of my life, when people reflect on my husband reflects, you know, he would say something like that, like, Julie, you know, she always got up early, to have her quiet time and to make breakfast for us. Or you, she always fed us before she fed herself. Or she was always kind of looking around, who can I help. And so, hopefully, we’re going towards a character, a testimony of the kind of woman we are, and not reading about the Proverbs 31 woman in the context of a checklist of did I buy and sell a field today? And did I? Did I sell my kids clothes? So? So that really freed me up quite a bit?

38:19
True? Yeah, that is that is I do really appreciate that. You know, I just because, as you kind of mentioned before, there are a few examples that we have in the Bible, of women and of who they are supposed to be. And so you know, kind of thinking about Sanga Solomon’s we do have the freedom to be a woman who enjoys and desires pleasure and enjoys and desires romance. It’s so true, just to be thinking about that God made us this way as as women, you know, as a wife, I would encourage you this week to go back and just flip through and read Song of Solomon, that’s really not very long. And you might be surprised about what’s in there. It’s actually very cool to think through. You know, how long ago was it? There was a lot of physical labor that needed to be done all the time. In terms of just constant work that needed to be done, it wasn’t. I go to the supermarket and buy a loaf of bread, it was plant wheat, wait half a year, harvest the wheat, grind the wheat, you know, bake the bread, you know, make the fire, just a huge amount of process things that I don’t even know most of what they had to do, but that was to get one loaf of bread for dinner. So just considering how much work they had to do. And the Shulamite bride was totally able and willing and worthy of receiving the pleasure of sexual intimacy. I think that’s a big thing. And I’ll be talking about more soon. But it’s this. Am I worthy to receive pleasure? You know, it’s not just is it okay, but am I enough? Have I done enough? And the cool thing is with Jesus. I mean, truly we, we have not done enough, the answer’s no, you will never be able to have done enough. But because of Jesus with him, we are enough. He paid the price. You know, we are the righteousness of Christ because of the bloody shirt on the cross. For us. It’s, it’s all there. So I feel like, you know, with my intros and outros today, I’ve run the gamut on encouraging diversity and talking about specifically the cross. But it really all is connected, isn’t it? It all is about Jesus. Ultimately, our worthiness, the way we can enjoy is because of Jesus in every way, and with that he deserves our praise and he deserves our worship and every tribe and tongue and nation. He deserves that. Well, God bless you. Thank you so much for joining. I look forward to chatting with Julie on our next half of the interview next Tuesday. I’ll talk to you soon God bless. Love you.

41:48
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