0:02

Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:19

Welcome, thank you so much for joining me. I don’t know if this is your first time listening to the podcast. But if it is, I want to say welcome. This is a safe place to talk about the intimate matters of marriage, the matters of the heart, the areas that we don’t show anyone else except our spouse, right? And where do we learn? How do we understand what this whole thing is about? That’s what this whole podcast is for. To give you a vision, a picture of someone that’s done it, someone that has learned how to do it, and is willing to give us insight and wisdom and advice on our journey. So if you got a chance to listen to part one of this episode with Mona Shriver, I just loved it. It was an incredible story of betrayal, and heartbreak. And then hope and healing. And so this is the second half Mona really talks about how to rebuild trust, what does trust even mean? How do we do that? And maybe you’re on the side of this, where you’re mostly just listening. And this wasn’t something you’re specifically searched for in your iTunes or whatever. But this is really important in marriage. It’s really also I think, important to God, because, as we talked about all the time in this podcast, and it’s underscored again, in this conversation, is it’s a mirror of what our relationship was with God, US trusting God. We can learn that through an appropriate way of trusting our spouse. So anyway, Mona, really fleshes this out for us, I love her insights, I think you will too. Feel free to go to delight your marriage.com/the Episode number, and you will be able to get all the links, the books, we talked about the different quotes we mentioned. And the you know, notes that I’ve really found impactful on this conversation. So without further ado, let’s dive in. So Mona, you know, in our last episode that was aired last week, which I really would encourage any listener who didn’t get a chance to listen to Moana story. It’s powerful. It’s packed with really not only lived insights, but also scientifically researched. And, you know, over the years of working with couples that are recovering from adultery since 1998, so lots of experience under their belt. Monus just has some really phenomenal insights. But here’s what I want to ask you Mona is, you know, through the process of healing from the adultery, you know, I guess that yeah, how does what is your marriage like now? I mean, what does it look like after this very long, intense, painful, hard, terrible process?

3:42

You know, I use in the early days, people would say, Oh, you can have an even better marriage. And that just made the hair on my back of my neck stand up because I went, Well, what the heck was the first 20 years? And so I don’t like that description. But here’s what I’ll tell you is the difference. Gary and I are not the same people we were before the infidelity. Thank you, Jesus. We have both grown we have both matured. We are different. And I like Mona better now than I did before. I like Gary better than I did before. And I think I can say the same thing for him. So the reason our marriage is better is because we are better people. So our marriage is better, but at the same time, it’s still a human marriage. So we still have issues Beulah, but here’s the difference post adultery. We know how insidiously a marriage can be damaged. You know, Gary didn’t wake up one morning and go, Oh, I think I’ll go have an affair and ruin my life and my whole family. It was very insidious. Satan’s very good at what he does. And so we had to figure out how did this happen to us? What are some of the whys What made Gary vulnerable. And we had to look at those honestly. And so in doing so, we discovered things. So the difference now is not that we don’t have issues. But for Gary, and I already told you that he was a conflict avoider. And I pushed, I had to learn to keep my mouth shut just a little more, and he had to learn to step up. So we address things much earlier. Now, if it’s an issue, we don’t let things ride. We don’t just assume that we know what the other person is thinking because we know them so well. Many times what you see is anger and it’s pain. Many times what you see is controlling behavior. And it’s really confusion. So we try to figure out, you know, Gary, what are you really thinking, and he does the same thing for me, we both listen more. And we both realize that there is more to this marriage than just Gary and I, when when two people get married, you know that in heaven will be separate individuals, there’ll be no, no, no sex or marriage in heaven. And so but when you get married, you take these two individuals, and you form another entity, if you will. Now, you can call that entity, the marriage, you can call it whatever you want. But we had a therapist name it for us, and he called it us. So now we have a third entity, excuse me in a relationship that we use to make decisions. So when I might not want to do it for Gary, then I have to think well, what about us? Would this help us? Would this help our relationship? Because that’s commonality of purpose, that’s commonality of family. And it’s like, there’s this whole third person in there that we make decisions for. And that’s changed a lot of our own inner selfishness even.

6:59

Yeah, you know, I loved what you said at the end of our last conversation, or the last first part of the conversation in last episode, you said, we are all capable of this. Yes. Right. Our hearts are desperately wicked. You know, I see to my own heart, you know, as as, as holy as I attempt to be, it’s a constant battleground of like, whoa, what Where did that come from? Or, you know, I mean, it’s just, it’s the human condition, is it not?

7:32

It is, indeed, our flesh and spirit will battle until Heaven. That is the way it is now, with the Holy Spirit. We should have many more wins. Yeah, yeah. And obviously, the direction we’re going is towards God as believers. But that doesn’t mean we don’t fall right. Now, you know, and this brings up the subject of trust, too, which is a whole nother issue. Can you rebuild trust? Number one question in adultery recovery. And that’s where a lot of this stuff will come in. And part of our problem, just simplicity wise, is that we misunderstand what trust is in this and so to rebuild it, it is difficult, but it can be done.

8:14

What do you mean by that? We misunderstand what trust is.

8:18

Well, I trusted Gary before the adultery because I thought I knew what he would do. I trusted Gary before the adultery because I thought I knew him so well. And he couldn’t ever lie to my face. I would know. And, you know, it was really I trusted Gary, because I thought I was so insights. Right?

8:45

We all do that, don’t we? We actually are trusting ourselves, are we not? It’s not? That’s

8:50

exactly right. We’re trusting ourselves. And we trust that we can control our husband or wife now, but what it taught what trust really is, is exposing your vulnerabilities, believing that the person you trust will not take advantage of you, nor will they harm you. Now, Gary did take advantage of me, he did harm me. So to rebuild that trust, I had to feel safe enough to once again become vulnerable to him not stupid, but vulnerable. And what that looks like is going to be different for every couple and Gary’s role was to prove himself trustworthy again, that took time. So I’ve had a therapist say You know, it’s in our culture we trust too much. You know, we are desperately wicked Gary and I know we can say this is a whole nother kettle wax but can men and women be friends? Sure. Can men and women be intimate close friends and I’m not talking sexual here. Intimate close friends. No. Because God created men and women to be attracted to each other and left unchecked, it will probably go that way. Do I realize there’s people out there that say, Oh, I’ve had a best friend for 40 years, and there’s nothing sexual at all? Good for you. Here’s the problem. You can’t always tell when it’ll happen. Because I guarantee you, I’ve sat across the table from way too many people who said, My gosh, I don’t know how I got here.

10:27

Wow. Yeah, yeah. So I want to, you know, just underline, we’re talking about trust. You mentioned that. Previous to the adults, the infidelity or the acknowledgment of it, you thought that you were trusting Him? Because you were you knew what he would? Do? You kind of trusted yourself your own insight, right. But what you have now understand what you teach others is that when you’re trusting, you’re acknowledging that you could be hurt that you’re putting yourself unguarded and totally vulnerable to them. Right. Right. And his job as he’s growing in being a person who’s worthy of that trust. Who’s a trustworthy person? Yes. I think that’s powerful. And I love the acknowledgement of the vulnerability. Because if we think that our because like, I wonder if this is where you’re going earlier, when you said, we’re too trusting in this culture, because I think what we pretend is that, oh, I can’t get hurt. I’ll put it all out there. It won’t, it won’t really affect me or this kind of thing. I mean, is that kind of where you were going with it?

11:37

That we’re teachers? Oh, we forget we’re dealing with people. Yeah. That’s right. And we are capable of doing horrible things. So bad things, but that’s reality. Yeah. You know, of course, I believe that Gary’s basically a good person, and that he’s gonna make the right choices now. But I have to acknowledge that could not be true in certain instances. And the same goes for me and you. We just refuse to acknowledge that. Yeah. And I think, you know, we have to know that to trust anyone. There is. Oh, there’s a beautiful quote by CS Lewis. About. I know what it is. Let me get it. I’ll get it. I’ll get it. Yeah. Okay, are you still there? Yeah,

12:27

I just picked this book up on a shelf for free the other day, okay, this is it. There is no safe investment, to love it all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be run and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact. You must give your heart to no one, not even an animal. Rabid carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries. Avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket, or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken. It will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. The alternative to tragedy, or at least to the risk of tragedy is damnation. The only place outside of heaven, where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love. Is hell.

13:45

Yeah. And that is so true. Because to really love is to risk. Yeah, not foolishly, you know, it’s scary, had never done anything to try to re establish that trustworthiness, then that would be stupidity on my part, and God doesn’t call us to be stupid. But he does call us to be wise. So I have plenty of tangible reasons why I trust Gary now.

14:12

Yeah. Yeah, that’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. Yes. So. So that’s the question, right. I think the CS Lewis quote, kind of underlines, right that it was not the one you were thinking of, just to clarify,

14:24

worded a little differently, but that is indeed the one. Yes.

14:27

Very nice. Yeah, that’s a I’ve heard that over the years. There’s a beautiful book. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it called Daring Greatly by Brene. Brown. Does that ring a bell at all? No. I think you would love it because of your insights already about vulnerability. It’s just this wonderful understanding of basically to be to be a wholehearted it’s she’s Christian, but it’s a kind of secular book. But it’s just a powerful read. So I would, I would, it’s one of my favorite books. definitely in the last maybe three years, it’s just been a life changing book. But I think that’s the that’s the the, I guess the danger I see of someone listening to maybe the first episode the second episode, maybe they haven’t experienced adultery, but now they’re, you know, the concern is like, well, what if he’s tricking me? What if I’m that? What would you say to a wife listening? That’s that’s thinking these these thoughts? Well, first

15:26

of all, they’re absolutely normal thoughts after you’ve experienced infidelity. I mean, when I talk to couples, and they walk in, and the betrayed spouse says, Oh, I’ve forgiven them, and I trust them. It’s like, why? helped me understand that? Of course, you don’t trust them that trust was completely eradicated. So the question in and of itself is a very healthy question. But God has the answer. And he says, take the steps in the direction. So you have open, honest communication. And you from both of you. So if Gary were to do something, and I would say, you know, that makes me really uncomfortable. And it makes me wonder what’s behind that, then we both have those conversations, transparent honesty. The second thing is a willingness to try that you goals, that healthy marriage. So you do it God’s way. You do it God’s way. And then take those steps. And in that communication, you should see some change in the unfaithful person’s way of doing life. But that’s going to be a little different, you know, at the infidelity was all texts and phone calls, then obviously, that person is going to rebuild some trust by making their phone unopened book, if it was all emails or such, you know, if it was persons they worked with if it was because they were in a bar, you know, you have to figure out where was the vulnerability and how did it get played out. But it just takes time and you keep that open communication. So the the first thing is honesty, and then it’s consistency. And it is, you make a promise you keep it you make a promise you keep it you make a promise you keep to you know, huge, huge. And it’s not about the adultery, it can be about Honey, can you pick up milk on the way home? When they get home with no milk? What happens? Oh, I can’t trust you with anything, you know. So persistency, and then it’s time and it’s not just waiting time. It’s what you do in that time.

17:44

Wow. So you said now this is building trust. Number one, honesty that open communication transparency, number two, consistency, making a promise keeping it the small ones, the big ones? It’s Oh, that’s just so powerful. And number three is time. I love the the consistency piece that you talk about because that to me, oh my gosh, it’s just exactly what God’s teaching me and just reiterating over and over and over again. But it’s almost this. Not only is it allowing your spouse to trust you this consistency piece, but it’s you allowing yourself to grow and trust for yourself. Beat the loose, right?

18:28

Yeah, well, let me give you an example. One of the things that Gary did was, besides being the open book, but Gary, he, he works with a lot of women, he works from our home, and most of that is on the phone and email. And he’s a very friendly, outgoing guy. Now he doesn’t flirt anymore. But he’s still nice. And you know, it’s He’s a nice person to talk to. And he has a very nice sounding voice. So women usually are born with him. And so what he do after the infidelity is anytime he got any kind of an email that even had a hint of anything, he would forward it to me. Because his point was I he I don’t want to drop dead when they have a heart attack. You go through my email and find one and go what was happening. Yeah. And so after a while I went, just don’t have to do that. I mean, you know, I don’t need to see your email. And he stopped for a while. And then he came in and he said, No, I’m not doing this for you. I’m doing this for me. So I need to keep doing it. And, you know, then I went, you’re right. How hard is it for me to delete it? That was that’s one of his hedges.

19:45

It’s not about me. Yeah. Yeah. Isn’t that interesting? Yep. Yep, yep.

19:51

Yep. Yeah. And the hedges you put in place are Gary’s hedges are for Gary. And he puts them in place. I don’t tell CARRIE What It Takes Getting in can’t do now I’m honest about what makes me feel safe and does it? But we all do our own hedges?

20:06

Well, so that’s actually a great question. Because for anyone listening, right, we started out talking about, we are all capable of this. So how do we put hedges around? I love that phrase hedges around to make sure a boundaries, whatever, however you want to say it. To make sure we’re safe. We’re in our own lane.

20:26

Yeah, well, that hedges term came from Jerry Jenkins many years ago. But I’ll just share with you some of my hedges, okay. And, you know, I’ve never been unfaithful, but I do not have intimate relationships with men. I do not meet with men alone. For coffee, I do not go to lunch with men alone, we have couple friends. So if I want something to do with the man in the couple, I’m either going to do it with him and his wife, or I’m going to do it with Gary and me. Now, that doesn’t mean I run like a scared rabbit. If we’re ever alone for 30 seconds, it just means we’re not going to make a habit. I know I could be alone with somebody and not fall into bed with them. But I don’t want to start that intimate relationship. were suddenly they’re fulfilling my need. And that’s the person I want to talk to about that. And you build on that friendship. So I don’t have intimate relationships with men. Okay. The other thing that we do, as a couple is our friends are friends of the marriage. And what that means is that I don’t have girlfriends that say, oh, Monique, here is just trying to control you. You don’t have to listen to him. You do. You’re a big girl. You’re a grown woman, you do what you want. So I want to have friends that are going to encourage me to follow God’s pattern for marriage. And maybe they’re gonna say, well, Mona, did you ask Gary what he thought about that? Or whatever, you know? So your friends, the end the same thing with Gary, he doesn’t have friends that say you could go do whatever you want, whenever you want. She’s, you’re just hitting packed? You know? No, no, no, no. So you have friends that encourage you’re about the same thing. You’d want your children’s friends, for heaven’s sake. You know, I mean, early and truly, this isn’t rocket science. So so we do that we keep the communication open. We’re honest about everything. There are no secrets. None. Now I know some people go well, I’m not I you know, I’m entitled to my secrets. I’m entitled to my life separate from my husband. And I would quote to you from Doctor Who has a great book out, but he would say, your every thought doesn’t have to be open. But every action does. Hmm. You can have a thought life but not actions. Yeah. So that’s kind of how we do it. And we spend time together. You know, we, you don’t pretend that you’re having time together when you don’t? Yeah.

23:08

Yeah, that’s good. Almost like, we’re sitting next to each other watching a movie or on our phones or whatever. That’s not together time. Come on.

23:16

And I don’t want to mislead you. It’s not like we have deep, intimate talks five nights a week are real people. So here’s the thing for Gary and me, the trigger for us whenever we start to feel a little bit distant from one another, or we just kind of start bickering a little bit. You know how that in a marriage that just kind of growing what’s going on. And it’s ironic because we live together, work together work in the same house together. I mean, we’re tied at the hip, but that is not intimacy. So when we start doing stuff like that, that’s a big clue. That’s a red flag. And we go whoa, time for Gary and Mona to do something for Gary and Mona and will tend to go away.

23:59

Oh, very nice. Yeah, that’s I like that. I like that you said, you know, when that that bickering that you know, feeling distance, or even, you know, if we’re starting to look for our friends, fulfilling that need of, of intimacy that we need with our spouse, that should be a bright flag, do something different, make a change, get connected to your spouse again,

24:20

I love that. It has to be intentional. It doesn’t have I mean, what happens naturally is to separate. Mm hmm. So essentially, you have to maintain marriages work, and healthy marriages work.

24:33

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Someone who’s been married 42 years. Has got the the tested, time tested. track record. That’s wonderful. Well, okay. So you know, I’m so grateful for everything that you’ve gone through so far. And I don’t know if you already touched on this or not. But if you could talk about the three things that are central to your American marital success, so far in your 42nd year

25:01

Okay, well, honesty, certainly honesty and those secrets, you know, even though it may be difficult to talk about something you should be able to bring up and discuss anything. That doesn’t mean that everything will be fun. Some of it will be uncomfortable, but you should feel safe enough to bring up anything. Yeah.

25:25

And you know, it’s interesting. You mentioned the thoughts, you know, anything you do, is is an open book, you know, it’s interesting, what I’ve even found in my marriage is that sometimes even bringing up the thoughts that are embarrassing or difficult to even talk about, actually gives me a level of freedom from those thoughts that I didn’t have prior to bringing them. So I almost would encourage, you know, take a chance and start bringing up you know, once the trust and the the level of honesty is there, and you’ve gotten some space there. But, you know, your marriage can get better. I mean, you can really dig in and get, like you said, in the first half of the interview, you said, marriage purifies us, like nothing else. Can I just love that? It’s so true.

26:09

Yeah. And to that point, it you don’t attraction is not the sin, God, beta sexual beings. So there are men that I’m going to think are pretty darn nice looking and might even be attracted to, we’ll discuss that. Because that’s not the sin. But here’s what it does do. First of all, if I acknowledge it to Gary, we’re not gonna, I’m not gonna play on it in my head. And second of all, we’re going to both be working not to put me in that person together. Intentionally. Yeah.

26:40

And I almost would add the attraction piece. What I usually talk about it as is chemistry, if I feel there’s chemistry with someone, right, because it trumps almost makes me feel like I’m checking that person out, or I’m lusting after them, but, but if it’s just a natural chemistry, I feel that I’m like, Okay, we’re not spending any time together. I’m gonna make sure I’m far away from that person. Yeah, that’s how I see it. Is that

27:02

what do you think that is? Absolutely. Gary Chapman calls up the tingles. Okay, there you go. Yeah. And it is biochemical. That’s how God made us. Yeah. Yeah. So the fact you know, will Gary ever be attracted to another woman? Of course he will. He’s a human man. But he’s never gonna, I shouldn’t say he is choosing that he will never consciously act on that again. And he’s protecting himself from himself by avoidance,

27:27

right? Yep. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so that’s the honesty piece, then the second thing that’s been taxable

27:34

piece is, is right out of Mama’s lips, and scripture, and that’s to treat each other with kindness and respect. That is hard to do. When you live with somebody, and you really know them, and you go, he doesn’t deserve to be treated with kindness and respect, he was a jerk last night, what you know, what kind of turned me was I can go to the grocery store, I can go to the post office, I can go to the gas station. And I can treat the clerk behind the counter with kindness and respect. And they may be the nastiest person in the world, but I just treat them with kindness and respect because of their position. So sometimes, as husbands and wives, we just treat them with kindness and respect, because of their position, not their person. You know, in fact, the word submit in Scripture as a military term, so generals and majors get treated with kindness and respect because of their position, not because they’re so much better than everybody else. That’s so you know, when I do it like that, then I could treat Gary with kindness and respect. And when I blow it, I can apologize for not doing that. Doesn’t take away the honesty, but it’s how I tend to handle things.

28:50

Okay, and then your third one.

28:52

Have fun. Fun, laugh, go do something fun. And you know, it has to you have to have fun for each one of you. It can’t just be what you consider fun. It has to be fun for them, too. So there’s some compromise. There’s where you talk. You know, but you’ve got to find some laughter is good medicine. And Gary could still make me belly laugh. I just love it. So you know, I mean, that’s why I married him. And so everybody what caused you to marry this person? There was something that attracted you and see that?

29:34

Yeah. That’s wonderful. Now we do talk about intimacy and all its forms on the podcast. So I wonder if you could give a tip about physical intimacy that maybe you wish someone let you in on earlier or even for women that are coming out of this, you know, recovery.

29:51

Okay, well, for just in general for marital intimacy, and I don’t know if you’ve covered Linda Dillo and Lorraine Finn. Chris’s book, intimate issues. I love that book. Yeah, it is it you know, I mean, if you if your listeners are familiar, they went and searched the scripture for what God had to say about sex. We are so misinformed. And so I would highly recommend all women to read that book and see what God had to say about sex because we’ve distorted it. So first, you need to get God’s perspective. Talking about reestablishing physical intimacy after infidelity, everybody’s different, it will affect your physical intimacy. Sometimes people turn into nympho shows and and I think it goes back to how God why God created sex in the first place. Sometimes they’re so estranged, they think they’ll never see each other. Again, the point is, in the beginning, it’s usually a temporary situation, it will settle down with healing, and the sexual aspects are not any bigger than the emotional or spiritual aspects of the trauma. So don’t make that the only thing that happened. It is just part of the whole trauma. For a lot of women and men, you have to reclaim your rightful place in the bedroom. And just personally for me, because there’s a lot of times, you want to be intimate with your husband or wife, and you have these thoughts or visions or images. And so I literally, and I’ve talked to many other women, and this is true for them, too. I had to reclaim my position as Gary sexual partner. And what that looked like practically was, for some time, our physical intimacy started with me in prayer, in my head quietly, asking God, to give me a desire for my husband, to help my body respond to him. And I had to remind myself that what Gary and I were doing was biblical, and bright, and pure. And what he had done with his affair partner was sin, and ugly, integrating, but God was in that bedroom with us. This was blessed, this was our rightful position. And if we’re going to have a healthy marriage, then a sexual intimacy is part of that. Amen. So again, it’s honestly in the bedroom. After infidelity, there are many times that tears come into the bedroom, and when you’re sexual, that’s fine. There’s been an entry, there’s been crying together, mourn the loss, but you can regain it, and those images will fade with healing.

32:38

That’s so good to hear. Yeah, that’s just powerful insights. Yeah. So, you know, due to your specific marriage specific struggle, I know, we talked about your ministry, but that specific opportunities that you’ve had to get to know and serve God, if you could just share a little bit about that.

33:01

It has been of high privilege to come along couples, I remember how much I wanted someone to be able to sit across and give me some help because I had done and so to be able to do that is is such a blessing. It, it put the final piece of healing in place for Gary and I, it keeps our marriage healthy. You know, it’s pretty hard to go and sit down and support a couple and infidelity of your marriage is in the pooper, you know. So it makes us keep our marriage healthy. And, and the privilege, the privilege of seeing God work in these couples. You know, I think about missionaries who are in the outskirts of nowhere, and they may see very little fruit. We are affirmed and see God work. We see lights come on. Constantly. It is just fabulous. Fabulous.

34:01

Praise God. That’s just amazing. And now, you mentioned a couple books. I’ll have these all on the show notes. But is there a particular book that maybe someone who’s you know, in the midst of recovery, what could you recommend to them?

34:18

Okay, well, I will selfishly recommend our

34:22

book selfish. You go right ahead.

34:24

It’s a faithful by Gary and Mona Shriver. And basically this is adultery recovery from a couple’s viewpoint. Now it was revised in 2009. So make sure that you get the pink one with the heart on it because we were able to add a lot of things we’d learned between the original and this one. But this is what adultery recovery looks like behind closed doors. And there’s also biblical principles and tips in there. So I I hear that it really does help a lot of couples And so that would be a recommendation. Yeah.

35:03

And you know, go ahead. I was just going to add one thing is that you know, as an author myself, when we do this ministry, you know, we we bring our best self to the book, we bring our best ideas, we, we wrestle it out with God we write, and it’s hard to edit it. It’s hard to write and it’s hard to figure it out. But truly, the the work you know, if you have been blessed by Mona’s story off the cuff, when I’ve just asked her questions, think about if she sat down with her husband and wrestled through what they want to give to someone who’s been in their shoes. I mean, don’t take it lightly. I would just so encourage you, if this has spoken to you at all, I think Mona’s story in that book, I haven’t read it yet. But my goodness, if you’ve gotten anything from our conversation, I can guarantee that it’s even more impactful in the process of that book.

35:57

Thank you. Yeah,

35:58

it’s true. But please, the next one, you’re gonna say,

36:01

Okay, the next one is called torn asunder. And it’s by Dave Carter, who was the therapist I mentioned. That’s Christianity’s expert. His was the only book out there. Now, it’s been revised several times. And it helped us both understand each other because of the truth in it. It’s written from a professional viewpoint, and there are also some good, so he’s got a lot of resources out there. But I would suggest you start with just the book itself. And then the third one just came out last year. And it’s actually not Christian, as far as I know, but it is probably the best book I’ve read on adultery recovery. It is called the secrets of surviving infidelity. It’s by Dr. Scott Holtzman. And you know, I said that the adultry we are physical, emotional and spiritual beings. And so when you have a trauma this big, it affects all three parts of you. Some of the we’ve alluded to the why things happen. That’s that’s a real difficult piece. And in fact, it isn’t figured out quickly. It takes a very long time, because Gary didn’t even know why he did what he did for a long time until he worked through some stuff. But Dr. haltzman in his book gives the best description of some of the biochemical things that happen in adultery, and in recovery. And I think that’s really essential, not as an excuse, but to help people understand. Yeah. So and it’s also very practical. And it’s so funny, and this is gonna sound weird. But as we read his book, it was like, Have you been to one of our intensives a human use some of the words we use? Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So those three is what I typically recommend. And I tell couples, I don’t care which one you start with. Start with one. And if at all possible, go through it together and discuss what you’re learning.

38:08

Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah. Well, and clearly, you know, well, I’ll say this appeal and let ask let me ask you, if you could go back to your one if your marriage, knowing everything, like you said, we can understand our life backwards, right. But knowing everything you know, now, if you could go and sit yourself down. What’s one piece of advice that you would give to you?

38:31

Oh, I don’t know if I’d listened to it. But if I could go back to my 20 year old, I would say you stupid women get into Scripture and follow God and do it his way. Because your way won’t work. I would do. Men have married the same man. Yeah. Yes.

38:59

That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Yep. So then, you know, I was this is what I was gonna say is that obviously, you know, Mona and Gary have just done such amazing work. Their website, just to clarify where people can find you online. Mona, would you tell us?

39:17

Yes, it’s www. Hope and healing.us. And we are available for emails, phone calls. We have resources on that website. We have weekend intensives, which is basically a retreat for couples to get adultery recovery. It’s an awesome experience. Check us out and contact us if we can be of any support.

39:41

It’s just incredible. Yeah, so I’ll have all this on the show notes, all the books that we’ve talked about all the resources. But I so encourage you to check out Mona’s website and what they do, and to really consider doing an intensive I mean, my goodness, how worth it would that be? That sounds amazing. Using Yeah, it’s good. Yeah, yeah, it is. Praise God. Yeah, to really get others around you that understand and to heal together and to really work through a dig and have no distractions to really commit.

40:17

Oh, you should see the faces that come in Friday night and the faces that leave Sunday afternoon. We could do before and after the main thing. They’re not healed when they leave, but they know what to do.

40:29

Yeah. And they’re committed to it. That process Yeah, yeah. It’s huge. I mean, like, that’s yeah, cute. Okay, well, we obviously Mona you, and I could talk a long time. I just I love everything that you shared.

40:44

It was my hot button, sister.

40:49

I love it. Okay, well, thank you for everything i So, so appreciate it.

40:54

And I appreciate the privilege of being able to share what God’s done. So thank you.

41:02

So powerful, such great wisdom and insight. You can find everything on the show notes. And I encourage you to go there and get the insight information. This one, I just give you an opportunity to pause now and pray about what God has spoken to you through this conversation. And then the last thing I want to just encourage you is if this is your first time listening to the podcast, we come out every Tuesday. Usually the audio quality is a bit better because I had some tech difficulties. I don’t know what happened, but we had to do a backup plan. So God, thank God it worked. But anyway, so we come out every Tuesday. So join us again next week. God bless you. I love you. I’m praying for you and your marriage. Bye.

41:53

Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion