0:02

Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:19

Hey there, and welcome. I don’t know if you are anything like me, but the feeling of insecurity is probably one of the worst emotions that you can have, I think, because it just makes you doubt everything about yourself everything about what you’ve done, or who you are and what you’re doing what you’re about. It’s just really difficult and when you feel insecure in your marriage, who, because that’s the most, you know, the the closest relationship that you have. So that’s what we’re talking about today, Beth Stefaniak is on. And she’s talking about what that was like in her marriage, how that affected them as a couple and how she got through that. So let’s dive in

1:20

All right, welcome back, delight your marriage listener. I hope you’re doing well. And I am excited to have Beth Stefaniak with me today. Welcome, Beth.

1:31

Thanks so much. belah. I’m glad to be here.

1:33

I am glad you’re here too. And thank you for being here a second time. Yeah, yeah.

1:41

Give it the old college. Try one more time.

1:43

I know, we we ran into a technical difficulty in our first really amazing interview got deleted, or basically, we weren’t able to use it. So. So Beth has been kind enough to record one again. So we’re, we’re doing it again. So

1:58

yeah, maybe it’ll be better the second time. Yes,

2:01

exactly. That’s exactly what’s gonna happen. So yeah. Cool. Okay. Well, Beth, would you mind just kind of saying hi to the listeners and introducing yourself a little bit for us.

2:13

Hi, listeners. My name is best Tiffani AK. I am a pastor’s wife, and have been married. It’ll be 30 years in May. We have three grown sons, which is really hard for me to believe. But our oldest is 26. And we’ve got a 23 year old and a 21. Just just turned 21 About a week ago. And being a pastor’s wife, I know all that kind of comes with that territory, too. So. And also, I’m a life coach. And I have a master’s in marriage and family counseling. So I work with in ticular women, but sometimes I work with couples too. So that keeps me pretty busy. Yeah, most of the time.

3:04

Yeah, absolutely. And 30 years of marriage. That’s awesome.

3:08

Yeah, yeah. And 30 years on met may 30. So Oh, that’s cool.

3:14

Do you guys have plans for the big three? Oh,

3:18

yes, we’re going to Well, we live in the Midwest. But we’re going a little bit further west to Kansas City. And we’re going to visit with some friends of ours from years ago. And just we haven’t been to downtown Kansas City. And we’re going to look at this. You know, I guess there’s like Crown Center and stuff like that. So so we’ve got some fun stuff planned. Yeah. Oh,

3:40

that’s great. I’m glad that you’re taking the time out to do that feel like that’s so important. Yeah, so um, well, would you share a scripture or a quote that has meant a lot to you, either over the years or recently? Sure.

3:55

I, well, there’s several scriptures, but one in particular that has just kind of It caught me and captured my attention when I came across it is Isaiah 54, five and six. And it says, For your maker is your husband, the Lord Almighty is his name, the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer. And the Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted in distress in spirit, a wife who married young only to be rejected, says your God. And that when I saw that, it was like, wow, that’s exactly what I felt. I felt rejected back in our messy marriage years. And for God to say that he is my husband was like transformational. I mean, you hear, you know, he’s the Bride of Christ. And, you know, he’s the lover of your soul, but I’d never really, I didn’t know that there was a Bible verse that where God is saying, I am your husband, you know? So that was really cool. And so now that’s sort of been A verse that I recall over and over and tried to make my focus in my marriage and it has really transformed the way I relate to my husband, to my earthly husband.

5:12

Would you mind reading it one more time, just so me and the listeners can just kind of understand it a little more.

5:19

Yeah. For your maker is your husband, the Lord Almighty is his name. The Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer. The Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit. A wife who married young only to be rejected says sure, God.

5:37

Yeah, that’s really cool. Yeah. So yeah. So God is your husband. And he will come to you as though and as though you were a deserted and rejected wife, right? Yeah, he will be your husband. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that’s very good. Yeah, awesome. Well, I bet this, you know, kind of segues into the difficult season of your marriage, if you’d be willing to kind of share the struggle that you’ve been through.

6:11

Yeah. My husband and I, I think came into marriage with a lot of dysfunctional ways of relating, and a lot of that we learned from our own parents, we had some wounds, some some baggage that we brought into the marriage. And, you know, I don’t know what it is about marriage that really kind of brings all that to the surface. Maybe it’s God that does that. But it was really rocky, even when we were dating, we had sort of a tumultuous dating, relationship and broke up at one point and then got back together, and it was a little bit more peaceful. And we got engaged in and once we got married, I’d say that it was maybe peaceful, we didn’t even have that, you know, they say, honeymoon period of about six months. I don’t think we had six months, honeymoon period. So, um, and my husband, you know, I’m not trying to throw him under the bus. But he’s, he cares deeply about truth. You know, he’s a pastor. And so along with that, there’s that double edged side of being really and I like truth, who I’m that same way, but he’s a little bit more willing to go toe to toe and I wasn’t, you know, back in the early days of our marriage, I did not like conflict, I still don’t like conflict. And he would notice that something wasn’t right. And I would want to withdraw and would withdraw and typically use my withdrawal to hurt him. Didn’t didn’t think of it as that when I was doing it. But yeah, so that ended up create, he felt rejected whenever I was withdrawing, which made him angrier, which made me more nervous and afraid and wanting to run. So that’s, you know, kind of what brought about a lot of our arguments and messiness in those early days.

8:18

Yeah. Well, you know, and that’s something I actually forgot to ask you is a little bit about your and your husband’s personalities, this might be a good, a good time to kind of talk about that.

8:28

Yeah, he’s, he’s very, he’s outgoing. He’s very bold and has strong convictions. He, he, like I said, He loves truth. But he’s also got this really compassionate side that comes out more so with other people sometimes. But I think that’s kind of the way it goes, though. And anyway, he he likes he doesn’t he never wanted to let things go on dealt with, he felt like his parents kind of swept things under the rug. And he was not about to do that when we entered marriage. So any little thing he might notice and bring up and here I am, I come from where I’m afraid of conflict and, and I’d rather just, you know, remain calm and peaceful and, but I might not ever really deal with things, you know, back in that at that point in my life, I was because I’m more reserved. And I am concerned about the truth. I want to be honest, but I think I was just a lot more fearful and insecure. I was worried about him. rejecting me if I admitted what I was feeling or thinking. And so you know, we just kind of, I don’t know how to describe more about my personality. I’m a lot it’s funny because now I feel like I become a lot more Going and a lot more open, with his help through through the years, his refinement in my life, and he’s actually become a little bit more introverted and introspective. So we’ve kind of rubbed off on each other.

10:15

Mm hmm. Yeah. And so kind of diving back into what you were talking about, you know, you mentioned that you kind of felt the reason that you didn’t want to deal with things. Is this insecurity that? If you did share that it might, you might then be rejected? Is that? Is that what you said?

10:38

Yeah, yeah, I don’t think I felt really worthy of being his wife, or even, you know, worthy of being anybody’s wife, any anybody’s wife, if they had any kind of issues with me. I dated a lot of guys for my husband. That kind of sounds weird, but they, they idealized me. And I liked that. But I didn’t like that. I mean, I like that, in the fact that if I was insecure boy, I felt secure in the fact that they felt like, I walked on water. But I knew I needed somebody who could kind of hold me accountable to so long because my husband and I told my mom, I said, this was when I was dating, I said to my mom, Oh, he’s so different. He challenges me and I look back on that now I’m thinking, what was I think? I signed up for more than I ever expected. But God used that. So I don’t see it as a mistake at all. It was just, it was a hard turn to make. And it really, unless I had turned to the Lord, or unless I had really tapped into God’s love for me. I think, honestly, we probably would have ended up divorced. And, as God kind of, confirmed to me that I was somebody have worth and that he gives me worth. It’s really helped me to come out of that shell and be willing to be honest with my husband and and to meet him on a sort of an equal footing instead of feeling inferior to him. Hmm,

12:23

why do you think you may have felt inferior? Were you think that?

12:30

Oh, definitely, from my childhood, in a lot of ways, my family was not affectionate. They didn’t tell each other that they loved one another really until my adulthood, then it became when my mom died, my dad woke up to the fact that, oh, I need to be, you know, more loving, I need to express that more, I need to be more affectionate. But as a child, my home and environment was not that way. It wasn’t as if I felt they didn’t love me. But it was because my parents had a messy marriage and had a lot of conflicts. I felt very insecure in. In effect, I think if they had been secure in their relationship, I think I would have been more secure in who I was. Yeah. So all of that kind of factored into making me sort of this very broken and insecure person once I went into marriage. Hmm.

13:25

Yeah. And, and okay, so you kind of told us kind of the climate of how things were. Have you been able to, if you could kind of pinpoint, you know, maybe some experiences that you and your husband had that kind of exacerbated things? Or? Or how did it kind of happen that things moved out of this way? What, what do you think?

13:51

Well, I think, part well, of course, kids, once kids come along, that adds a lot of complexity, a lot of pressure, a lot of tiredness, a lot of even disagreement on how to, to raise them. And since we both were concerned with the truth, we might say things more, instead of biting our tongue and saying it in a way that is calm and respectful. Especially my husband might be a little quicker to say something that was hurtful, and I would take defit you know, be defensive about it. And so that, that was part of I think, what made it a little messier. I think also, being in the ministry, I say, you know, I have a blog called Messy marriage. And I think another you know, aspect of that is messy ministry. Because ministry, it can be very messy and we started a church early in our marriage, and they met in our home for a certain period of time, and that’s a lot of times When you’re a young mom, you’re tired. You’re taking care of children and you’re having to get the house ready. It’s it’s discouraging when a lot of people, not a lot of people come at first, you know, pressure on my husband, we had to generate in, you know, some kind of financial backing, all of those things were in the middle. And it just really made it hard in those early years. So for me, I look back on that being part of it. I think, another piece of it, especially for young couples, was I relied a little too heavily on my mom. So when ever Gary and I, my husband would, we’d have an argument, I would run to my mother or call my mother and cry on her shoulder, and she would comfort me and say, You’re right, he is a meanie. And I felt really loved and comforted. Because my mom would side with me. But I never come back to her, you know, because my husband and I would usually try to hash it out and get to a better resolution at one at some point, you know, and but I would never come back and say, Well, mom, here’s, you know, the way we thought through that, and how we’ve resolved it. And so she kind of formed this negative perspective that just fed more worth it put more fuel on the fire for me, because I would continue to turn to her. So so those were the, I guess, the big three for us.

16:31

Sounds like you had these insecurities already. And he’s pushing back, you know, really passionate about getting the truth out there and getting things figured out right when they need to be figured out. And then kids go on, and you’re stressed anyway, with the pressures of starting a church and being in the ministry.

16:50

Well, and let me add this to, I think this is common. When children come along, they’re so cute, and so lovable. And if there’s any kind of tension in the marriage relationship, it’s super easy for a mother, a wife to decide that she’s going to pour herself into her children and look for the love that she needs from them. And I think that was in the mix. And my husband probably felt jealous and threatened by that. And I was defensive about it wouldn’t really look at it. You know, at that time, yeah. So I mean, it can make all sorts of challenges in a marriage and really pull a couple, you know, to be a divisive thing and a couple’s life.

17:43

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that that I’m grateful that we’re talking about insecurity, because I think that was definitely something I struggled with, for most of my life. And it’s still, you know, at times I’ll feel insecure about something. And it’s a crushing feeling. It’s a really, I mean, it’s just so debilitating, because you can’t find your footing, you don’t know where to go on in situations. And I can imagine and, you know, that, that, in fact, in my first marriage, I, I felt incredibly insecure, and very, it was just a terrible dynamic, but it was a horrible feeling. And, you know, to feel that way, kind of on a consistent basis in your marriage. You know, how long do you think you had that?

18:34

I think it was until about, I mean, we struggled off and on, and it was pretty subtle, the gradual improvement, but I would say about 15 years ago, we started to carve out a weekly time to just sit and talk. We call it talk time. And so for an hour after usually after we put the kids to bed, we would sit and talk and it wasn’t a time to talk about problems or conflicts, it was just a time to connect and find out about each other’s day each other’s week. And just to build in that friendship, that we that was kind of gone by the wayside, really once the kids came along. And so we started doing that. And I noticed at that point that it started to lessen the amount of, of arguments we had in conflict we had, and I started to kind of feel better about my husband. No, I say that. And I think it really, I’m talking. It took some time it took doing and we were pretty good about making it a priority and not a lot of couples can do that. I don’t know there’s something about my husband’s personality and my personality, that if we decide we’re going to do something, we do it you know, so but I think after a few years, I started to really notice that it was just so very crucial to us feeling connected, and lowering our defenses and really listening to each other because we were doing it at a time when we weren’t hashing out some conflict.

20:23

Yeah, almost like this emotional, peaceful place. And just focusing on connecting.

20:31

Yeah. And And also, we made dating a priority to probably, I think, all throughout our marriage we had dating or family day, a, we called it when when the boys were little, and we would have them in tow on those days. So dating wasn’t as it didn’t happen as often when when we had little kids. But we did still try to make that a priority. And that has carried over to present day. I mean, Friday, I think I mentioned in the last interview that Friday is the day that my husband and I set aside because he’s a pastor, he takes Friday off because weekends are kind of crazy. And we just hang out together. And we we go to the movies, and we go to a restaurant, and and we just have fun together on that day.

21:19

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, Mike, excuse me, might church really encourages having a rest day every week and, and we do that as a family. And it’s just so Oh, it’s just it fills me up so much to be able to just spend that time with my spouse and my kids and have the phone on airplane mode and not check any kind of social media or anything, just just be present. Just fills me up so much. I really agree with that so much. So I kind of want to circle back on this insecurity thing. It’s funny, because I I remember our first conversation, you had said something interesting, you had said that you weren’t willing to admit that you were wrong? Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that?

22:11

Yeah, that was something I think, because my husband was such a, you know, he wanted to deal with the truth. It, it was so intimidating. And so and I say that about him, but my part of it was I came in kind of trying to spin who I was and present this all together person. So it, it really was like, you know, kindling to the flame, you know, it just when you got those two together, it really was a bad mix. And so I would try to cover up whatever it was that I was doing, not thinking that it was safe to share, if I had realized that, that it brings safety to the relationship by sharing, I think I would have done it sooner. But for a lot of years, i i You know, my husband would say, you know, Beth, why don’t you ever, you know, look at yourself, why aren’t Why are you always saying you’re right? And I didn’t really want to deal with that until it was right around that 15 year window. I I remember him saying it to me. And he had said it so many times before. And I would just kind of like, you know, ignore it, and let it go underground. And but this time, it just felt like God was bringing it to my attention. And it was like Beth, pay attention here. This is something that is true. You know, just because Gary is saying it doesn’t mean it’s not true. And so, at that point, it was a real turning point for me. And I started to slowly but surely let my guard down and admit to Gary, when I was wrong. And it was like, you know, you know, they say it’s like Humble Pie tastes really better. And it does. It’s not something that was easy to do right off the bat. But I did it little by little. And the more I did it, the easier. It got. It’s still you know, I don’t want to say it’s easy. Now. I’m saying it gets easier as you go along. And as you do it more it becomes the culture of your relationship. It feels safer to do as you do it. Because I noticed the more I did it, the more my husband did it too. And I think it was a little bit of both I think he was willing to admit, and that made it safer for me to admit to so it was really both of us coming together and doing that.

24:51

Yeah. Yeah, I like that. So just a piece, kind of go back a little bit to what you said. I really like that you said that you were trying to spin who you were, you didn’t feel almost like it, like you didn’t feel secure in who you were. So we’re trying to kind of cover, you know, whatever it was, and spin it so that you look better than whatever it is. And so I think that’s, I just, I just can so relate to that, you know, when you feel insecure about who you are you, you know, everything is at stake your your whole framing, you know, you’re trying to frame things a certain way, because you don’t feel confident enough in who you really are. Right. So I yeah, I really appreciate that. The other thing you mentioned is it brings safety to the relationship by sharing. And I guess my first point out of that is absolutely oh my gosh, like there are so many times when, you know, I finally let down my maybe facade and I, you know, share with my husband, whatever’s embarrassing or kind of shameful, or whatever it is, I finally tell him, and then I’m like, Wow, that feels great. And he feels great. We feel connected. And it was such a life giving moment, it was so important. And I feel cared for in that really important spot in my heart. So I wanted to bring that out from from your, from your comment too. But the other thing I think would be helpful for our listeners to think about, and I know you as a marriage counselor, and you know, in this marriage space in the life coaches, well. You know, what about when a when a marriage is unsafe, it’s unhealthy, and it actually is unsafe to share what’s really going on?

26:46

Yeah, I think you need to, and I think this was true for me as well, I didn’t right off the bat. I mean, I say it, like my husband really brought it to my attention. And God use that. And I began to share with him, but it probably was sharing it with God was that first safe person that I can to venture and be real with be real with God and let him know what I was struggling with. And I also had a lot of really godly girlfriends in my life. And not every girlfriend, you know, I want to say godly, trustworthy friends, because not every girlfriend’s going to help you grow in that some friends might actually make it worse by kind of getting in there and, and saying, Yeah, he is a jerk, and you shouldn’t. Right? Do whatever with with your spouse. I’m not talking about that. But I am saying I had some friends that I was willing to tell them enough about what was going on. And how I handled it was I said, you know, here’s what I’m struggling with, here’s what happened. What do you think I should do? What part of this Can I bring a positive change to and they would hold my feet to the fire, they would really be honest with me and give me good godly sound advice. And that helped me in that environment I could learn I learned how to be real about who I was. And accepting of what I could do gave me gave me the power gave me the tools to go back to Gary and share and be honest with him. So I guess what I’m saying is, it doesn’t have to start off with the spouse. In fact, if your spouse is unsafe, it’s probably better not to start with your spouse, you need to start with the safe and trustworthy people, godly people in your life and begin to develop that skill and that courage in in those safe relationships.

29:06

So let’s say your girls, your godly girlfriends or say, you know kind of responding in that the kind of behavior he’s exhibiting is really not okay. Um, you know, as much as you want to really respect and honor your spouse at some point, you know, if a line is really crossed, where this is not appropriate behavior in a marriage, you know, what do you think are maybe some steps whether the, you know, a listener is going to be supporting her her friends in that way, or what do you think?

29:42

I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking. Can you ask me again?

29:47

I know I kind of throw a bunch of questions at you. So if I were going to be clear about my question, I would say that, you know, what about the situation where, where it’s an unsafe relationship. her girlfriends are telling her that it’s unsafe. Right. So what are her next steps?

30:08

Well, I think in those cases, if if we’re talking unsafe like emotional and physical or sexual abuse, I definitely think that a counselor, a Christian counselor, needs to be somebody that you reach out to, there are also shelters that can give you guidance on how to navigate that. I know that I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t advise a woman in that kind of situation, to try to leave that spouse even. Even though it might be abusive, because there are ways you need to go about that very carefully, because you can actually incite more abuse if you leave without the proper precautions and the proper supports in place. So. So in that kind of situation? Yeah, I think you need to have somebody that has some expertise on how to separate from an abusive spouse, or how to handle an abusive spouse, if you decide that it’s not something you’re you’re not ready to, to remove yourself from that situation.

31:23

And can you give any resource recommendations for a wife that might be in that situation?

31:31

Yeah, I think I mentioned last time, Leslie vernick is like, such a great expert and Christian resource on emotionally destructive marriages, she’s got a book called emotionally disrupt destructive relationships and emotionally destructive marriages. And she had she, her mother actually was in her life, emotionally abusive, and so she’s experienced that she speaks from, you know, her own kinds of experiences. But she’s also done so much research and, and she’s a counselor as well. So she’s very skilled in knowing how to navigate those kinds of situations. And she does it from a godly perspective, a biblical perspective. So she’s one that I would highly recommend, of course, there’s also an Henry Cloud and John Townsend have the boundaries, books, which I’m not sure that they have anything that deals directly with emotionally abuse, abusive situations, but boundaries are always sort of, in these kinds of emotionally abusive marriages, boundaries are typically undefined. And if they are defined, the abuser is stomping on them all the time. So it’s helpful to kind of know, you know, what should I do? How should I set a boundary? What are what are appropriate boundaries in that relationship? So reading, reading on those different topics could really at least give that woman or that husband? Because I’m not, I’m not saying that. It’s always the husband, that’s the abuser. But those that would arm them with some information and some insight as to how to deal with that situation?

33:26

Yeah. No, it’s, it’s really great. Since since our last time talking, I, I’ve checked out Leslie vernick. And I really appreciate what she has to say. And I think it’s right on, it’s really wonderful. And I’ve loved, you know, the boundary series as well as boundaries in marriage. That one I agree with just, it’s so helpful, and just understanding what is what is your responsibility and what’s not? Are you responsible for making your spouse happy? Or is is that not your responsibility? And, you know, what, what is respect? And what, what’s required in that, so? Yeah, I appreciate that. So, you know, I, I kind of wanted to, you know, we had a little segue there, but I think, uh, you know, kind of going back to, you know, what you talked about just a little while ago about, you know, shifting the culture of your relationship to a relationship that you’re willing to admit your mistakes, you’re willing to say that you were wrong, willing to be humble. And that’s something you know, little by little by little it shifted the culture of your relationship. Yeah. And you know, that results in a much stronger bond when, when you both are not, you know, trying to keep yourselves as always being right and having this distance between you but being a little more flexible and a little more. You know, there’s this great analogy. I’m trying to remember exactly what it is. But it’s something along the lines of something like when there’s a storm, and the trees that are really rigid, are the ones that break, but they’re able to when to bend and, and move along with the wind. You know, they’re they’re actually the ones that survive. And so yeah, so I like that a lot. Okay, well, we’re wrapping up the first half of this interview with Beth and I want to thank you so much for joining me today. Definitely come back next Tuesday for the following half of Beth’s interview, we’re going to talk about the biggest lesson she’s learned. So come back then. Thanks so much.

35:52

Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes, as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion