Podcast: Play in new window | Download

How a Strong Identity Defeats Shame: Interview With Pastor Drew Hyun

Maybe you’re a leader in your church, a high achiever at work, or a dedicated family man—but deep inside, you feel the sting of shame. Maybe it’s from mistakes in your past, struggles in your present, or simply the pressure of not living up to what you think you should be.

Here’s the good news: you don’t have to carry it anymore.

Pastor Drew Hyun—lead pastor of Hope Church NYC and executive director of Emotionally Healthy Discipleship—shares how God’s love offers a radical solution. Not just theologically, but practically. In this powerful teaching, originally given to our men’s community, Drew walks us through how to eradicate shame through our identity in Christ.

These truths brought tears to the eyes of many men in our program—and it’s easy to see why. Because when you truly grasp how deeply you’re loved by God, everything changes.

 

The Root of Shame: Why Our Identity Feels So Fragile

Pastor Drew’s upbringing was marked by harsh parenting, deep wounds, and religious hypocrisy. His father—who eventually became a well-known pastor and author—was emotionally and physically abusive at home, even as he preached about how to raise a godly family.

Drew grew up trying to reconcile this contradiction, and his early life was shaped by a relentless drive to succeed, perform, and hide his struggles.

Whether you’ve experienced something similar or not, many of us understand that tension: performing on the outside while hiding pain on the inside. And when we can’t live up to the image we’ve created—shame creeps in.

But here’s the turning point: our identity doesn’t come from performance or other people’s approval. It comes from Christ alone.

 

Emotional Health Is Spiritual Maturity

As Pastor Drew shared with us, “You cannot be spiritually mature while remaining emotionally immature.”

It doesn’t matter how impressive your resume is, how many sermons you’ve heard, or how many Bible verses you know—if your wife experiences you as unloving, cold, or critical, then something is broken.

Spiritual growth isn’t just what you do in public. It’s who you are in private—especially with those closest to you.

The call to emotional health is not just self-help. It’s a discipleship issue—and a doorway to freedom.

 

Public Life vs. Private Life

Social media, church culture, and cultural expectations often tempt us to present a polished version of ourselves. But that disconnect between our public image and private reality breeds shame.

Drew shares how discovering integrity—being whole and consistent, not perfect—transformed his life.

He uses this beautiful definition of humility, rooted in the Latin word humus (meaning grounded): “Humility is not thinking less of yourself. It’s thinking of yourself less.”

When you’re grounded in God’s love, you no longer need to perform. You can walk in truth, freedom, and consistency—the marks of a mature man of God.

 

Overcoming Shame Through Christ-Centered Identity

Shame loses its power when you know who you are in Jesus.

Culture tells you to look inside yourself or to please your family and community. But both of those paths eventually fail.

Only God’s love is unchanging.

Here’s a mantra Pastor Drew repeats often:

“In Jesus, I am fully loved, fully accepted. Nothing to hide. Nothing to prove. Nothing to fear.”

That’s your anchor when insecurity hits. That’s your firm footing when shame comes knocking. When you remember this truth, you can stop hiding and start living.

 

What It Means to Be a Bold Yet Humble Christian Leader

So what does healthy Christian leadership look like?

It’s not puffed-up pride. And it’s not self-defeating shame. It’s humble boldness—a leadership style rooted in identity, not insecurity.

Drew points to Jesus as our ultimate model. He is both Lion and Lamb—powerful and gentle, bold and self-sacrificing.

When your worth is secure in Christ:

• You don’t feel inferior to anyone.

• You don’t feel superior to anyone.

• You can love boldly and lead without fear.

As Drew puts it, “I don’t need to perform. I just need to show up as my honest self—and be a conduit of God’s love.”

 

Why Your Marriage Is a Miracle in the Making

Your marriage isn’t just for your happiness—it’s a sign and wonder to the world.

Ephesians 5 calls marriage a “mega mystery” that reflects the love between Christ and His Church. That means your pursuit of your wife—emotionally, physically, spiritually—is a living picture of Jesus’ relentless, selfless love.

Even if things feel strained right now, even if your wife is distant or hurting—your love still matters.

Your kindness.
Your self-control.
Your forgiveness.
Your joyful pursuit.

They point to the God who never gives up on us.

 

Final Thoughts: You Are Deeply Loved—Right Now

You might feel like you’ve failed too much or that your shame disqualifies you from being a great husband. But that’s not what Jesus says. As Drew puts it, “You are more sinful than you dare believe. And more loved than you dare hope.”

That truth sets men free.

So if you’ve stuck your foot in your mouth, if your wife seems distant, if your spiritual walk feels stale…

Take a deep breath.

You are fully loved.
Fully accepted.
Nothing to hide.
Nothing to prove.
Nothing to fear.

 

With love,

 

The Delight Your Marriage Team

 

PS – If you’re ready to be discipled and join a community of men or women that are passionately pursuing Christ and His purpose their marriage, we would love to talk to you! Check out delightyourmarriage.com/cc for more information.

PPS – Here is a quote from a recent graduate:
“Years ago I prayed to God for a short life. I didn’t want to break my marriage vow, but I didn’t see how I could be happy with him and it was getting harder as the children became adults…Now I enjoy spending time with him…Physical intimacy is better than ever. He cares about me and I feel secure. When we come together physically, we feel closer and both of us look forward to it! I miss him when he gets busy with work and would be devastated if something happened to him.”

 

Transcript:

Belah Rose  00:01

Belah, welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. You’re joining me. Belah rose, as I dive deep into the beauty, power and truths about intimacy, learn not only the practicals, but the heart behind what making love is all about. Delight your marriage. When was the last time you felt that insecure feeling and just a wash of shame all over you? I hate that feeling, and I’m curious if you know what to do with it. That’s what I’m excited to share with you. Pastor drew shares about how you can actually eradicate shame through your identity in Christ. That might sound like a bunch of theological mumbo jumbo, but wait until pastor drew breaks it down for us, walks us through his journey, and eventually you’re going to see that there’s so much hope there. I mean, so much hope that the world can’t give so I’m excited. My name is Bela rose, author, trainer, coach. I’m thrilled because pastor drew actually came to our men’s community and shared this training, and I just loved it so much. And there were tears in the men’s eyes, and I had to share it with you all. I’ve actually taken great notes and been talking some of these ideas through with my sons, because truly, if they could get this, oh my gosh, peer pressure is not going to bother them. There’s already so many things they don’t have to worry about, because if they can understand the exact truths that Pastor drew shares with us. So let’s go ahead and dive in. Go ahead and pray, Father God, I just thank you so much for these men. Thank you for each one of their lives, for their families, for their kids, for their wives. Lord, you know each of their stories. You know their situations. You know their background. Lord, you literally know every single thing about them, every single thing no one knows them better than you. But you’re not far off. God, you are close. You know the hairs on their heads. You know them better than they know themselves. Lord, you think about them. The thoughts you have of them are more than the sand on the seashore. That’s how many thoughts you have about this one right now. You think about them. You care about them. You are not far off. You are close, and you deserve all of our awe and worship and praise and fear because you are that big and mighty and yet you love so deeply. Father, I pray on this call that you’d speak to us. You’d give each of us insight that we did not have before, revelation of who you are and who you made us to be. I pray that you’d speak through Drew, that you would give him your insights God and you’d specifically stir in us, maybe even reminders, things that we haven’t thought about in a long time, things that we missed when we have read your word in the past. New insights, new revelations for these men, to lead their family well, to lead their business, well, their ministry, well, their workplace, Well, God for them to be the men that you want them to be. God, I love that you work in these men. I love that you’re doing good work in them and through them. And we just ask that continues in Jesus name Amen. All right, cool. So let me go ahead and introduce our speaker today. So Drew Hun is actually a pastor in New York City, and he is a contact that originally came through Russ, who is connected to Pete scazzero and Drew and Pete are close friends, and I got a chance to work with Drew just a little bit in New York City Church conference that happened a year and a half ago or so. And so that was really fun. So I I’ve seen drew in person, and just it was a it was a joy to be at his church. But specifically, I’ll just give his actual bio, because I think it’s really worth us knowing who more about who drew is, but he’s the founder and the lead pastor of Hope church New York City, a diverse church with three locations in New York City. Drew is also the executive director of emotional healthy discipleship, an organization that aims to transform church culture through the multiplication of deeply changed pastors and leaders. He regularly speaks at churches conferences and college campuses throughout the United States and abroad. He is a graduate of UC Berkeley, Gordon. Conwell Theological Seminary, an MDiv and fuller Theological Seminary, and also he’s recently written a book, beautiful, disappointing, hopeful, how gratitude, grief and Grace reflect the Christian story, which is very true. So Drew. It is such a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for being here.

Drew Hyun  05:21

Yeah, what an honor to be here. Belah and I, I just and you all probably know this, but Belah her influence and impact, especially in the ways that she encourages and challenges both men and women. Ultimately, you know, the call is around marriage, but ultimately, I love how she’s really challenged me and so many of us to simply be people who pursue God in a deeper way. And it’s in pursuing God that our marriages are transformed and so Belah, I just, I just want you to know thank you for starting this ministry and the ways that you have mentored and challenged and encouraged me. I’m a faithful listener to the podcast, and so yeah, so just end and recently purchased some of the resources that have come out. So I just want to say thank you, Belah for inviting me and Russ. I’ve known Russ and Kim for about 24 years now, so there’s a long history. So when, after I heard the podcast episodes with you guys, that’s when I was like, Belah is a miracle worker. Just kidding, Russ, but, but not really. So anyhow, so we love Russ and Kim just really delighted to be here. So thank you for for the invitation.

Belah Rose  06:39

Oh my gosh, absolutely true. Well, you know one thing that I remember when we met even before, like before the conference, when we were first talking how intentional you are to keep your churches small, and I think that is such a powerful I mean, I think it’s so powerful and so that that’s very similar to some of the topics that we’re going to get into, but it’s so much easier, especially in New York City, to have giant churches, because that seems like that’s the bigger. Better is always better. And I just thought that was a powerful thing of your testament of humility and wisdom. So I’m thrilled. All right, Drew, can I go ahead and get into some of these questions?

07:22

Absolutely okay.

Belah Rose  07:26

First of all, if you could maybe give us a little bit more color of how you got to this place of emotionally healthy discipleship, just a little bit of your story before I kind of give in specifics of the questions.

Drew Hyun  07:39

Yeah, totally, my own story was, I actually grew up in Los Angeles, California to Korean immigrant parents, and, you know, so I grew up actually being part of a local church context, an immigrant church context. And my parents were very hard working the story they would tell us ever since we were young kids was basically, you know, we bought a one way ticket here, so you better get into Harvard and like, that’s literally kind of the the mantra that was kind of seared into my psyche as a little kid was basically, like, you have no other options. We have no other options. So make it work. And so as a result, there was a certain kind of drivenness that grew in me. Now, growing up in the local church, though, my dad and I had a really harsh relationship, not only my dad and I, but it was also my the three brothers that I had, the four brothers, we all had a very harsh and acrimonious relationship with my dad. My dad was a very strong, overpowering and often violent person towards us and towards my mom, and so because of that, we just grew up despising him and being really wounded by him. And it’s taken me years to kind of just process through some of that impact. But part, part of our significant story was he ended up going into ministry, into vocational ministry as a pastor himself. And after he went into ministry as a pastor, his behavior didn’t change. So you could imagine some of the dissonance of like, wait a minute, my father’s a pastor, and here we are, and we see the way that he treats mom and the way that he treats us. And how can we reconcile all the things that he’s he’s doing and talking about, as my dad becomes a pastor, he ends up writing a book, and the book ends up becoming a best seller in Korea. So it ends up becoming this best seller in Korea. And so he ends up leaving pastoring a local church, and he ends up writing a number of books. So he had switched. He started out in air conditioning and refrigeration. Became a pastor later in life, which was much to our surprise. And then, since then, from the age of 40 to today, he’s 79 years old. He’s written. So in those basically in the 39 years, he’s written 40 books. Now the topic of the books and the platform that he’s written on is how to raise a family. So you can imagine, like some of the pain of my own background is like reconciling faith that somehow my dad then became like this very influential pastor and speaker in Korea, speaking on some of the largest stages in the world, and yet, and here he was writing these books on how to raise a family. And my brothers and I have wrestled so deeply because our relationship with him did not change much. Now it’s changed considerably due to a number of you know things, I think Belah, when you talk about forgiveness and all that stuff like, so appropriate. But anyhow, that’s I might be going off the rails here, but part of that journey for me, then, was reconciling. Like, do I believe in this Jesus who calls us to a certain way? When the biggest example to me of what faith is like, I was seeing so many different markers of hypocrisy, and so later, in college, when I made a decision for faith, I remember being all in with Jesus, despite what i People often say, you know you, oh, you’re a pastor because you grew up in the church and your father was a pastor. And I often say to them, no, no, I’m not a pastor because of that. I’m a pastor despite that. And but seeing who Jesus was really drew me to Jesus. But early in my college years, and I found myself then growing in leadership, being passionate for the word. But my senior year in college, when I knew I wanted to go into vocational ministry, I ended up my senior year, I remember, you know, this is back when there weren’t many filters on the internet and things like that. And I remember, click, click, click, and clicked on some links that I didn’t know what they were, and immediately pornographic images filled the screen and and I was hooked. And I did what any kind of young leader in that context, which was very driven by hiding and shame and putting on a front did I told no one, and here I was. That’s when I ended up coming to New York City to do an internship at the church where Russ and I met. At this church called New Life Fellowship. And New Life Fellowship was a church that really invited people to be honest and to confront some of the deepest parts of who they were and their past and their family of origin, and it was an incredibly Grace filled community, but also a challenging community in the ways that it called us to mature. And for the first time in my life, I was introduced to this concept of integrating my public life as well as my private life. And so here I was as this intern at a church, but I was replicating the same way that my dad did ministry, which was basically this kind of public life and this private world that was very different. And so through God’s grace, being at that church, and Pete and Jerry scazzero hadn’t written anything yet, but they actually Pete was inviting me, I remember as an intern, being invited to explore some of the woundedness of my past with my dad, being invited to confront the parts of shame that allowed me to kind of stay hidden and to hide parts of who I was, even as a leader within the church, as a young leader within the church. And needless to say, emotionally healthy discipleship drastically changed my life and trajectory and so So anyhow, so that’s, that’s how I got introduced to emotional healthy discipleship, and then 10 years later is when I left New Life Fellowship to start the church that we now lead, called Hope church NYC. So so sorry. Belah, that was a long kind of introduction, but a little bit about my past, some of the things that had shaped me and how emotional healthy discipleship has really allowed me to go what we call beneath the surface, the 90% below the surface, to confront the areas of my life that I think, honestly, Bela, I think that you really call us out on very regularly. So, yeah,

Belah Rose  14:37

beautiful. Oh, that is so powerful. Drew. I love the comment that you said the public life versus the private life and how different those are. And I would love for you to maybe speak a little bit more about that, if you’d be willing to.

Drew Hyun  14:51

Yeah, and I think that when it comes to public life and private life, well, so there’s a couple of things, first, as a career. An American like that had been shaped by Confucian culture. Now I recognize, you know, I don’t know if there’s any other Koreans on this call, but, but I believe that many of us can relate to this very kind of idea. And in Confucian culture, there’s this idea of like one’s public life and one’s private life. And that belief was, the more public we are and the more we can have good decorum and good manners in public, it will change our private life. But you could imagine what that does is it tempts people to give the facade of my public life is okay, but my private life is a mess. Now, in today’s world, with social media, with LinkedIn, with all these other kinds of ways, like, in many ways, we are encouraged to present a very manicured like, like, we’ve got everything together kind of image. And when, meanwhile, in my private life, like there’s a lot of things that could be going wrong, but in many ways, I may not have the courage or the safety to bring up what’s going on in my private world and in my private life. And so that idea of my public life and my private life, it can often get disconnected from each other. Now, one of the words that I love and what we use a lot in emotional, healthy discipleship, and that’s used about Jesus, is the word integrity. And integrity like the root word of integrity is a word like we get the same word integer, a whole number. In other words, what does it look like for us? For us to be integrated beings that you know when it comes to my like, I could be someone who preaches amazing sermons and writes books and has a national platform and speak about loving God and loving others well, but my wife experiences me as someone who is unloving, not willing to listen, and really harsh and demeaning. And what we often say with emotional healthy discipleship is emotional health and spiritual maturity are inseparable. It’s impossible to be spiritually mature while remaining emotionally immature. And I mean, this is Belah, this is what you talk about very often, right? Like there’s a way in which I can disconnect my spirituality from, like, the lived experience in the relationships that are close to me. And at the end of the day, who cares how many degrees I have? Who cares how great of a preacher I can be, or how many books I’ve written, if at the end of the day, the people closest to me don’t experience me as a loving, honest human being, as a person who lives with forgiveness, that lives with wanting to delight in my wife, first and foremost, and that she is a priority of my life. At the end of the day, I could be pastor, doctor, successful in all these different ways, but at the end of the day, the thesis is, I’m really not that spiritually mature. And really this is what Jesus talks about on the Sermon on the Mount. And so when he talks about, you know, you’ve heard it said about all these exterior things, but I tell you this, and really, Jesus cuts deep into the heart of the matter. And so it’s, it really is that integration. But the world around us today, it’s so easy to disconnect our public life from our private world. And I realize, guys, guys, I’ll be the first to tell you, like, I have this tendency, not only from the culture that I grew up in, but also in church. Culture tells me I should be a certain way as a pastor. You know, with the again, the social media culture that tends to want to present an image that’s everything is so manicured, so. So I think that that those are the temptations that exist for me and for us, and for the kinds of images that can be curated that may not be reflective of reality. Mm,

Belah Rose  19:14

hmm. So good, so good. And so important. And the thing is, you know, there’s this, there’s this interesting thing about being a Christian, because you are aiming to attain a lot of ideals that are sky high, because Jesus is perfect, and we will fall short of that, but we are aiming to be there. And so I guess I I’d be interested to hear, because you talk about shame and being this in this driven culture and and really, you know, a Christian culture also, and you’re trying, you want to get there, but the shame and the private life being disc. Connected. And I’m curious. I’m curious, if you could just speak to that, I feel like the shame piece, you would probably have a lot to share on that one.

Speaker 1  20:07

Yeah. I mean, I think when it comes to shame, I think there are, especially in today’s culture, there are two different ways in which we have gotten a sense of identity in our culture, in a lot of like Western cultures, the the source of identity that can heal our shame is supposed to come from ourselves, within me, right? Like I’m supposed to believe in myself, believe I’m the person who is really great and self talk and believing in myself. And so there’s this inner kind of, like individualistic sense of identity that can heal some of our shame. Meanwhile, in Eastern cultures, where, again, I’m from a Korean American background, like in Korean when I first introduced myself, My Korean name is Hyun Ho Jin Hyun is actually my last name, but I say it first. And the reason why is because in Eastern cultures, I get my sense of identity from my family. In other words, I get it from what the family thinks of me and the culture thinks of me. Now, the problem is when it comes to shame like my because it really ties into this idea of identity, like and today. In today’s culture, we’re often advised, you know what? Get your sense of identity from yourself from within, or we’re told, get your sense of identity from what other people think about you, like your family and your culture. But if you’re anything like me, as if there’s anyone who’s a human being who’s lived through life. The reality is, both of those things fail the community around me. Oftentimes, they can be disappointed in me and my self worth, if it’s tied into like what other people think of me, then I can feel deep shame, or if it’s tied in from like me and my own kind of self reliance, I don’t know about you, but I mean, the Knicks lose a game, and I’m lost in my feelings, and I’m like my whole, you know, mood goes up and down. And one of the things that you know I the reason why I find Christianity so compelling, related to how it heals our shame, is because my source of identity doesn’t have to come from myself or from my family or from these other people or from my, you know, from my coworkers or friends. It comes from a God who is so steady and faithful, a God who has loved me and died for me, a God who forgives me and wants to set me free, and whether the Knicks win or lose, and we pray that they do win. That is pray that they like I realized that my, my deepest sense of identity can if it comes from God, then when it comes to my shame and Belah, this is what I love about kind of what you invite us to do is to confront and, and, you know, to ask for forgiveness in areas and to forgive other people in areas and like it really my, my sense of identity needs to come from God, because God is the only one who is unchanging. And if God is the one who is unchanging, and his love for me is real, and God has forgiven me, I’ve got nothing to hide, so I can actually be open and free about my and one of the powerful things about the podcast Belah is honestly, it’s hearing the stories of how people have been freed from some of those shame cycles after first finding Our rootedness in God. And I need to do that work before any other relationship. I need to get right with God. I need to. I need to. So I realized, so I basically have these phrases that I say pretty regularly. I remember as I was kind of really confronting my shame in different seasons in my life. You know, there’s this mantra that I would I would basically say, I would say in Jesus, I am fully loved, fully accepted, nothing to hide, nothing to prove, nothing To fear. And those, those words were basically words that,

Belah Rose  24:43

sorry, drew one more time in Jesus, I’m fully loved, fully

Drew Hyun  24:48

accepted, fully accepted, nothing to hide, nothing to prove, and nothing to fear. Yep, no. And and I would tell myself that, because there are so many times shame gets the best of me, and I get lost in again myself. So even joining this call Like honestly, I have so much respect for Russ and Kim and for you Belah, like so much. So there’s a part of me where I’m like, Ah, what do I know what do I have to offer? These guys have been in this journey, and I’m just joining for the like, and I’m just this Korean kid who I wonder if there’s going to be other Koreans on your Oh, my goodness. They’re probably going to wonder, like, where I grew up, where I’m from, whether my English is good or like, there’s all these things that like, all these lies that like that constantly, are these shame messages. And what I need to do is I need to get to a place of like in Jesus who died for me. I’m fully loved, fully accepted. I’ve got nothing to hide like I can laugh at myself. I can tell these people like the worst of me, because, guess what? It doesn’t matter what you think. Jesus has died for me and and therefore he loves me. And I’ve got nothing to prove. Like, I don’t have to, you know, like there’s a part of me that could try to prove myself, maybe use big theological words or whatever, and I’m just like, What am I doing? Why can’t I just, you know, the best gift that I can give is just my honest story of transformation and and I have nothing to fear. I can actually take risks. I can be myself and speak boldly. And so i So, so I think it’s that’s, it really has been my faith in Jesus that’s healed my shame. And I should say that hasn’t healed my shame is healing. My shame is continuing to heal, my shame, which is where I need to continue to drink from that well as much as possible.

Belah Rose  27:00

Yeah, that is so good. I just love that in Jesus, I am fully loved, fully accepted, nothing to hide, nothing to prove, nothing to fear. I think that’s so powerful, and it’s so scriptural, right? Like Jesus really, really loves us like that. Sometimes, when I get like, a little panicky or insecure or just like, did I do or said, or what, and then I it’s just like, if I, if I just call to mind for a second the God of the universe loves me, like, really, like he likes me and loves me, like, what? What am I doing thinking these thoughts like, he really likes me. He really loves me. And you know, you men are in the midst of a lot of you are in the midst, in the throes of healing your marriage, and maybe you stuck your foot in your mouth and you just shouldn’t have said that, or wish you could have done something a little different, or whatever. Or, you know your wife is not in a place where she can love you the way that you yearn for right in Jesus. I am fully loved. I am fully loved. I don’t have to go back and reflect and try anxiety. Anxiety, that’s exactly where the enemy would want us is, in that fear, shame. I’m not good enough, I’m not lovable. That is so powerful, so powerful and good and so, right. So thank you. Drew, I want to ask you there was a really great I don’t want to miss spending a lot of time on this, because you had this really fantastic topic of humble yet bold leadership. Because I want to know what that, what that, what, how you would describe somebody, if you were describing a humble yet bold leader,

Drew Hyun  28:51

yeah, you know. And again, this is where I think our foundation in God is really what makes a difference, because, you know, the gospel, the good news of Jesus is that my sense of identity is not found in my performance or my past or what culture I come from, or how much money I make, or, you know, all these different things that the world uses to designate and to again use as our source of identity. But if my if my foundation is in Jesus, then it means that I’m not inferior to anyone like, like, for instance, if we were to say like, you know, one of the pastoral heroes of mine is Tim Keller, who lived here in New York City. And if I were to ask this or Tim Keller, like, let’s say Tim Keller, Michael, you know, Martin Luther King Jr, or others, who, maybe these heroes of faith, and we were to say, like, who? Or Billy Graham, who does God love the most out of all of us? Um. I know some of you are like, Russ niche, no, but I mean, here’s the thing, right? A part of me is just like, Oh, I’m not like these luminaries of faith. But do you realize, like the gospel is no, God doesn’t love these other people, Billy Graham, Tim Keller, more than me like I’m not inferior to anyone, because my sense of identity and belovedness is not based on how well I measure up against these other people. It’s based on Jesus and His love for me. And if it’s based on Jesus’ love for me, that I’m not inferior to anyone, and because of that, I can show up in a room like this and just be like, You know what? I’m just going to I can be myself. I don’t have to like I said, I don’t have to hide, I don’t have to prove myself. I don’t have to act like I’m better than I am, or I don’t have to, like, try to compare with, Oh, my goodness, who’s on this call? And, you know, how am I performing in these different ways? Instead, I’m not in fear to anyone. And what that should do, hopefully, is allow me a certain kind of boldness. You know, the scriptures talk about if God is for us, who can be against us, like if my identity is in Jesus, do you realize, like I’m not inferior to anyone? In fact, I can walk into any space and bring my truest sense of self because my identity is in Jesus. Now, at the same time, I’m not superior to anyone because my identity is not in me and my performance and, oh my goodness, let me check out this person’s CV or resume or LinkedIn profile. Instead, I’m not superior. I’m just loved by God, the Son of a good father. And if that’s the case, then what it does is hopefully I live with a certain amount of humility, like there’s a certain way in which I am both emboldened, but I’m also humbled. I’m able to be someone who listens, who honors people who you know is not trying to prove myself or one up someone instead, hopefully I can just have a disposition of humility. Why? Because I realize, if not for the grace of God, right, like, gosh, I would be a mess to you. And I think that’s where I think, and this is, I think this is what we find in Jesus as well. It’s interesting in the book of Revelation, you know, it talks about how Jesus is the Lion and the Lamb. Isn’t that interesting? Like some sometimes, where Jesus, Jesus the lion, Jesus fierce and powerful and strong, a mighty lion, and yet Jesus is also the Lamb that was slain, who is sacrificial, compassionate, loving. And I think the invitation for us, then, especially if our rootedness is in Jesus, then I think the invitation is, how can we be both lion and lamb, that and that we’re able to live into both of those callings in Jesus, that we’re both humble yet bold and courageous, that in our companies, in our marriages, as parents, We’re we’re both like so humble, but so courageous. And that’s one of the things I love about Jesus. And a lot of times what, what we can do as Christians is we can over emphasize one part of Jesus more than another, you know. So some movements can emphasize the, oh, my goodness, Jesus is a warrior, and he’s the one who’s the king. And then, you know, other cultures can emphasize Jesus is meek and kind and loving, and the reality is Jesus is both. He confounds all those categories, and he invites us as men, to be the kind of people who are lions and lamps, who can ask for forgiveness in a humble way, but also live and lead with a passion and a goodness in what God has called us to. So so that’s kind of what I mean about being both humble and bold. And the reality is some of us, we might need to grow in becoming more bold. Others of us, we pro we might need to grow in becoming more humble. All of us need to grow and so in various ways. And so even that question to ask, Do I need to grow in my boldness in Jesus, or to ask a question, do I need to grow in my human. Humility in Jesus, and I think that’s, you know, both of those things are hopefully a helpful invitation for all of us.

Belah Rose  35:10

I love it drew. This is so good. I love it. May I ask you, what do you think if you could riff a little bit on some myths around humility. What are some things that people might believe about humility that are just not true? Curious, what you think?

Drew Hyun  35:30

Yeah, I mean, I think that when it comes to humility, I think a lot of people think this means that I belittle myself like I think, you know, I was, I grew up the youngest of four and four boys and so and again, with an overpowering dad. So you could imagine, so I often, I’ve had a big journey of my life has been wrestling with my own sense of self worth and often feeling like even all those shame messages that I was telling you about coming onto this call, and ways in which I believe I don’t measure up and oh, my goodness, I’m such a loser. Now part of me can start thinking, Oh, I’m just being humble, when the reality is I’m not being humble, I’m being self defeatist. I’m like, now what’s interesting is the word humility. It comes from the same word for in Latin of humus, which basically means grounded like I’m I’m grounded like I have my feet on the ground. And humility is actually not like I’ve got my face on the ground, you know, like, and, but it’s actually that I’m a grounded person. And CS Lewis and Tim Keller later on, will talk about how humility is not thinking less of myself, you know, not thinking, oh my goodness, I’m the biggest loser in the world. I can’t believe that. Can’t believe I keep making these mistakes. But instead, hopefully, humility means instead, instead of thinking less of myself, it’s humility is thinking of myself less. In other words, I’m able to live Tim Keller has this book the gift of self forgetfulness. I’m able to simply like I’m just able to live with a freedom and a lightness, where I’m not trying to prove myself, I’m not trying to, like, undersell, I’m just I’m just true, and I could just live with a freedom of self forgetfulness and so, so that’s what I mean by humility, and I think that’s where people can get humility wrong, is we think, Oh, man, I am someone who is just the worst of the worst. Now, of course, Paul, the apostle Paul does, you know, you can see throughout his own journey, as he, you know, he goes from someone who’s saying like, you know, I’ve got a lot of weaknesses to eventually saying in second, Timothy, I’m the worst of all sinners, you know. And so you see in Paul, like this growing awareness of his own sinfulness. But you see also in Paul, I have fought the good fight. I finished the race at the end of his life, like he again, he holds together humility, where he’s able to hold to hold the reality of like, listen, I might be the worst of all sinners, but I’m also the most loved by God, you know, in terms of just his rootedness in Jesus. So there’s that phrase, I am more sinful than I dare to hope or dare to believe, but I am more love than I dare to hope, and so both of those things can be true and so, but again, humility, it’s not about continually debasing myself, and that’s really the difference between shame and guilt, of course, is that shame can so debilitate us and cause those feelings of guilt to make me feel like nothing, you know, nothing will ever change or and Belah, that’s what I you know, the ministry that you you do about, sorry, I’m talking so much about all the stuff you do, but I really The the hope that you give of like, hey, the worst thing that you think is the end of your story. And maybe some of you guys, right now, you might be in one of those seasons where it just feels awful and there’s not a lot of hope. And one of the things Belah that I love about what you’re rooting folks in, and the stories that you’ve told of transformation, and that many of you all have told around transformation. It’s a story of like Jesus is in the redemption business, you know, and God, none of us are beyond God’s redeeming of us. And if that’s the case, then don’t, you know, to hopefully I’m not going to wallow in my shame. But. Instead, I can, for sure, ask for forgiveness, but now I live into a new reality of the ways in which Jesus wants to heal again myself, debasing that I can often do,

Belah Rose  40:14

yes, yes, it’s so good. It’s so good he does and and I love the idea of the self, self forgetfulness. And you said, more sinful than I dare to understand, and more Love Dare to believe. Yep, dare to believe. Oh, okay, more Yeah, say that one more time.

Drew Hyun  40:33

Yeah, more sinful than I dare to believe, and more loved than I dare to hope.

Belah Rose  40:40

Oh, that’s so good. That’s so good, you know, yeah, it just, I mean, all of, I’ll tell you, Drew. All of this is just making me be like, I need to spend more time with Jesus. Let me out of here so I can go on a walk and just be like, Lord, do you really love me that much? Is that really true? Is that how you feel about me? Is that how it’s is and like, that is how it is. Like, gentlemen, that is how it is. He loves us that much, and wallowing in shame is exactly what the enemy would want. He would want the wallow because that that takes us out of the fight, it’ll take us out, and even the wallowing in the shame then pushes us towards the very sin that we’re trying to escape, right? But instead, if we really, really, really believe we’re on our daddy’s lap and he’s happy with us, and he’s wrapping his armors around us like that, that’s fullness, that’s fullness, that’s that’s okay, no more striving. I really am good. Gosh, Drew, this is so, so good. What do you feel like for these gents? If, if we were to bring it back to some marriage insights based on the things that we’re talking about with identity and our love for our being loved by Jesus, informing who we are. Are there any insights that you want to give that directly relate to how they are with their wives? Yeah,

Drew Hyun  42:19

I would, I would say first and again, this vertical relationship with God, like this is, this is the power of a marriage. Relationship is, and the first point of it is my relationship with Jesus. I mean, Belah. I know you said jokingly, gosh, I just want to find time with Jesus right now. Because if I can, if I can, find a place of forgiveness and love and belovedness, first, with God, but secondly, the mystery of marriage. You know, in Ephesians five, it talks about how, you know, Here Paul is talking about marriage. Then he starts talking about the church and Jesus. And then he says, You know what? This is all a divine mystery, a mega mystery. And it’s that word for mystery. Mystery is often tied together with a sign, like a Semion, which is basically a sign and a wonder of the world. And in other words, what Paul is basically saying, you know, if you think about miracles and miracles that are a sign of Jesus being God, right? Like Jesus does these miracles, and he does all these signs and wonders in the world. And what Paul is basically saying is, your marriage is a sign and wonder to the world. It’s a miracle that points people to the love of God. And so in this mysterious way, then, like we actually have an invitation that the way that we love our spouses, our wives, the way that we love them, is to be such an evidence to the world of the incredible love of God. And so what it means then is me for my wife, that hopefully my wife, when she hears from me, when I am with her in every single way, both emotionally, physically, whether they’re words of affirmation or the playfulness and delight or the touch and touching her in Ways again that would communicate delight, love, kindness, care like everything that I communicate with my wife then becomes a way of me expressing to her like Tina, do you realize the way God loves, the passionate, incredible love of God? Do. Are like, and my love for you is a sign and wonder to you of the way in which like and so I become a conduit of God’s love in this mystery of our marriage. Like I become. And I shouldn’t say I become, we become to each other, the conduit of God’s love to one another. Now I recognize that when a marriage is, you know, in a lot of conflict, it’s hard for us to even see that we’re like, listen, you’re talking about this, you know, this ideal of the way that marriage is looking for one of the things you know, Belah, like, she provides this road map of, again, how do we live into the fullness at each as individuals in God, but that fullness leads to a kind of togetherness, where our marriage now becomes a witness to the world of like, Do you realize just how, just how amazing God’s love is that people hopefully should be looking at our marriages and being like, oh my goodness, this couple. They just they are so playful and passionate with one another. They are so affirming of one another. They they love and adore each other and to the rest of the world, then people see that. They’re like, whoa, what? What is that, that that’s like a miracle in today’s world, and I want to experience that miracle, and we as Christians get to say, oh, you know, it’s, it’s actually, it’s because we have this view that marriage is a divine gift. It’s a miracle of the ways that God loves us and He invites us into a deeper journey. Now, obviously the place where it starts for me, though, is is Am I someone who the humility and boldness? Am I humble enough to ask for forgiveness? Am I humble enough to not try to, you know, say, Well, you, you know, instead of like pointing the finger at the other person, humble enough to take responsibility for my own self and the ways in which I have not measured up and being a conduit of God’s love to Tina, so sorry. I could talk about this a lot, and, you know, I just but

Belah Rose  47:26

this is so, so good, and I had the privilege of meeting Tina, and they actually work together. And they are so sweet. I mean, they are very sweet, and they complement each other this way, like they each of their strengths complement each other, but they also compliment each other. It’s just they’re a very sweet couple, and so I just love this just clear and obvious way that you are seeking to love your wife as Christ loves the church as Christ loves you. That’s what you want to impart to your wife and and that heart is so evident. Drew, and

Belah Rose  48:06

I love it. Gentlemen. Are you blessed and appreciative of this gentleman sharing? Can we give him some applause, some virtual appreciation? This

Belah Rose  48:15

is a big deal. Thank you drew.

Drew Hyun  48:17

Thank you guys. No, I so appreciate it. And thank you guys for the work you’re putting in the growth. You really are heroes of mine in the ways in which you’re putting in the work. So thank you

Belah Rose  48:30

amazing, amazing. So two final things, then I have some I have some announcements, but before we do that, Drew would you actually pray for the gentleman based on some of the themes that you you shared here.

Drew Hyun  48:44

Yeah, no, absolutely, I would love to pray with you, father. Thank you that you are not only faithful to us, you are passionate for us. You are passionate you love us. And what a miracle that is, and you’ve actually given us the gift of marriage to be a conduit of that faithful and passionate love. And so Lord, we pray that we would find our truest sense of security and identity in you, and that you would grant us a way of communicating that same faithful and passionate love, first to our spouses and then to the rest of the world. It’s in Jesus name we pray amen,

Belah Rose  49:32

amen. Amen. Thank you again. DREW That’s just so so so good. You. You. Pastor Drew, thank you. Seriously, that was incredible, and I’m so grateful. If you want to know more about the organization that Pastor Drew is the executive director of it’s emotion. Healthy.org It’s a wonderful organization founded by Pete scazzero. Highly regard both of these gentlemen, and it’s ultimately about transforming you emotionally so that you can serve others better. And if you’re interested in marriage, transformation that we do here, go to delight ym.com/cc and we would love to get on a call with you and see how we can give you some clarity for free and witness God ultimately transform everything. All right. God bless you, and we’ll talk soon. Bye,