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How to Not Have an Affair: Interview with Gary Thomas

It doesn’t start with scandal. It often doesn’t even start with feelings.

It starts with a smile.
A moment of connection.
A conversation that feels easy—maybe easier than the ones you’ve been having at home.

You walk away thinking, That was nothing.
But somewhere deep down, you also know—it could become something.

If that’s where you find yourself today (or even if you’ve seen the warning signs in someone you love), please take a deep breath.
You’re not broken.
You didn’t marry the wrong person.
You haven’t done an irredeemable thing with no going back.

You’re human.
And this conversation is meant to bring you hope, not shame.

In my conversation with Gary Thomas today—pastor and bestselling author of Sacred Marriage—he shared that when a group of wives was asked “How many times do you think a married man has had extramarital feelings for someone?”, they all responded with zero. When he asked the same question to a group of husbands, they all said somewhere from 4 to 6.

What we are saying is that attraction and feelings for someone other than your spouse are not often talked about, but are pretty common- for both husbands and wives. And we believe that bringing this into the light will take some of the shame off of these feelings and also help people not to go down a road they think has no return.

Gary Thomas on Attraction and Integrity

Gary has been married for over 40 years, and he’s seen a lot—as a pastor, counselor, and husband. He told me, “The reason we make a commitment is because we know there will always be another person who draws us for a moment. Commitment means we already know what to do with it—and what not to do with it.”

We don’t often talk about attraction outside of marriage unless it’s already turned into an affair. But Gary’s heart is to normalize awareness before it becomes destruction.

In our talk, Gary referenced a romantic comedy movie where a married bus driver begins to become attracted to a girl on a bicycle. Finally, a friend of the bus driver gently confronts him and says: “There will always be a girl on the bicycle.”

In other words, there will always be someone who catches your eye.

The key isn’t pretending that will never happen—it’s learning how to respond when it does.

Gary reminded me that having an attraction isn’t the sin. Entertaining it is.

The feelings themselves don’t make you unfaithful—they make you human. But where you let those feelings go next? That’s where faithfulness begins.

The Subtle Steps Toward an Affair

Gary shared that most affairs don’t start with a dramatic choice—they start with small, quiet ones. Little compromises that feel “innocent.”

He shared with a story of a woman who did end up having a physical affair. She recounted that it wasn’t just one day to the next, but that there were actually several steps that happened before they were physically intimate. She shares that she could have turned back at any of these step, had she known before. She also shares the grief after it was all done at waking up to “just a dude in her bed”– not the escape or rescue or romance the temptation had promised.

Here are the steps she shared and the pattern Gary’s seen over and over again:

1. You share marriage frustrations with someone of the opposite sex.

2. You sense a spark—and feel seen or understood.

3. You start caring how you look around them.

4. You think about them when they’re not around.

That’s the prelude. It doesn’t feel dangerous yet, but it’s where hearts begin to shift.

Gary said, “If you can recognize it early, you can stop it before it ever grows.”

From there, people will often begin to have an emotional affair:

     5. You fantasize about being together.

     6. Manipulating circumstances to spend more time together.

     7. You start playful banter or flirtation.

     8. Friends notice—and ask what’s going on.

This is a wake-up call. Gary said, “If people around you see it, something’s already happening.” They’re seeing what your heart is trying not to admit.

Then, comes the actual physical affair:

    9. Meeting together in secrecy.

    10. Texting or calling in ways you hide from your spouse.

    11. Physical intimacy.

This is the final step—but it’s never the first.

We don’t share this to shame. Maybe you’ve already partaken in some of these steps. We share because it is not too late to turn back. Gary said, “If you know the steps, you can stop at any one of them.”

When You Have Extramarital Feelings, Here’s What to Do

If you do end up experiencing feelings or attraction for someone other than your spouse—don’t panic. Don’t spiral into guilt.

Instead, bring it into the light.
Tell a trusted, godly friend of your same sex. Talk to your spouse if it’s wise to do so. And most importantly—talk to Jesus.

Ask Him to help you see the truth: that this isn’t love, it’s a lure.
Temptation often feels like relief at first—but always ends in ruin.

Then, put up strong, unapologetic guardrails:

• Stop all unnecessary contact with that person.

• Don’t text, call, or “just check in.”

• If you work together, keep everything professional and public.

• And don’t justify emotional intimacy as “just friendship.”

And when your spouse asks you to stop interacting with that person, don’t respond with pride. See that they are feeling threatened and care for them deeply in that. As Gary said, “You can’t make your wife (or husband) feel cherished if you’re protecting a relationship that threatens them.”

What Makes Us Vulnerable to Affairs

Gary also reminded me that temptation doesn’t appear out of nowhere—it finds cracks that already exist.
Stress. Loneliness. Unmet needs. Disappointment.

He said, “There was a time early in my marriage when everything felt like failure—our baby cried constantly, money was tight, and I felt like I couldn’t get anything right. So when someone made me feel ‘perfect,’ it was intoxicating.”

Can’t we all relate to that in some way?
When life feels heavy, a moment of admiration feels like oxygen.

But the healing you’re seeking isn’t found in a new connection—it’s found in deeper connection at home and with the Lord.

But that’s why we must run to the right source for validation.
Your worth isn’t in who smiles at you—it’s in the God who delights in you.
That’s right.
Not a perfect wife who is doing the perfect things, or a perfect husband who is saying the perfect words.
But the Lord who is constant.

Guarding Your Heart and Protecting Your Marriage

Let Gary’s wisdom anchor you: “Be as faithful to your spouse as God is faithful to you. Be as committed to your marriage as Christ is committed to His Church.”

That kind of faithfulness isn’t built on fear—it’s built on love.
When you keep Jesus at the center, attraction loses its power and intimacy becomes holy again.

So today, ask yourself:
What boundaries do I need to strengthen?
Where have I let my guard down?
And how can I draw closer—to Jesus and to my spouse—starting now?

Again, we don’t share this to frighten or shame. We are sharing to let you know that if you’ve had feelings for someone other than your spouse- you are not alone. You are not dirty, you are not broken. It doesn’t mean you married the wrong person and it doesn’t mean this new person is your soulmate. It means there was attraction and you are human. That is it.

We love you and we are rooting for you!

Blessings,

The Delight Your Marriage Team

PS – Thank you again Gary for joining us today! To learn more about Gary Thomas, Sacred Marriage, and his other work, please visit garythomas.com.

PPS – Want to bring our material to your churches? Check out delightyourmarriage.com/ipt to learn more about our In-Person Trainings and our January pilot programs!

PPPS – Ready to take the next step for yourself? Schedule a free Clarity Call with one of our Advisors at delightyourmarriage.com/cc.

PPPPS – Here’s what one of our recent graduates had to say about our program:
“My wife and I were roommates at best. I felt that she only wanted me around for a paycheck and to take care of the house. When we had sex it was duty sex where she wasn’t present and there was no connection. I hated myself but I was wanting to cheat on her just to feel wanted and desired…[Now,] I have learned about how I was causing problems and putting way too much pressure on my wife…if I am not cheering her on, who is?  The truth was no one was, no wonder she was depressed, withdrawn, and suicidal.  I would be too. I now take pride in knowing that God entrusted her to me to lift her up, cheer her on, show her how good she is, encourage her, listen to her, and cherish her so she can grow…[Recently,] she told our daughters to move because she wanted to sit by me during movie night.  She has taken steps towards intimacy with me on her own without me pressuring her.”

Transcript:

Belah Rose  00:01

Belah, welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. You’re joining me, Belah rose, as I dive deep into the beauty, power and truths about intimacy. Learn not only the practicals, but the heart behind what making love is all about. Delight your marriage. Hi there. This is Belah rose, and I’m thrilled that you’re joining me today on the delight your marriage podcast. I have a friend, Gary Thomas. I know I feel very honored to say that, but he has written the book sacred marriage. He’s a best selling author. Highly recommend looking into his material. I’m subscribed to his email list. The only marriage person I subscribe to. I just really love his heart and what he shares. And I privately was asking him what I should remember as God continues to bless to let your marriage and as we’re pursuing that vision that is shared on episode 500 if you’d like to share where I believe God is leading us at delight your marriage. But I asked him specifically, what do I need to make sure, as you look back on your life and you look back on on what God has done in in you, what what do I need to keep first and foremost? And he was so wonderful and gracious. And he said, I just want to keep it really simple. I’m not going to make it, you know, make it complicated, but something you can remember. But draw close to Jesus and draw close to your spouse. Keep Jesus at the forefront, keep him at the center, and draw close to your spouse. So it’s really powerful. When Gary had a article come across my email that was talking about extramarital attraction. And I really believe that this is a podcast episode that will help people, that will actually save families from divorce, Truly, truly, if you can take these truths and apply them to yourself, so that you guard your own heart, you guard your own self, because the enemy wants to destroy your Marriage through all sorts of random ways. So if you can gain insight into how he does it and the steps before an affair ever starts, you can capture it and reject the enemy’s advances before he ever gets there. It’s a powerful episode, and I’m thrilled for Gary’s wisdom that he shares with us. So let’s go ahead and dive in.

Belah Rose  02:58

All right, delight your marriage. Listener, I am thrilled you’re here, and I’m even more thrilled because my friend Gary Thomas is here. And if you don’t know Gary Thomas yet, this is going to be a wonderful honor to share him with you. So we let’s see. I think we first got connected years ago at this point, and really have loved years before that far before that, I read Gary’s book sacred marriage, and I realized only after we met that I had read it and it had unconsciously impacted me so much, because it’s so so deeply aligned with the work we do at delight your marriage. And likely a lot of that structure was put in place ahead of time with Gary’s first book. Well, the first book I was exposed to was sacred marriage, and then my church actually did Gary’s sacred pathways curriculum, and that was really impactful to me as well. And and so anyway, over the last couple of years, Gary and I have connected, and he’s been a wonderful just mentor from far, and then we’ve had some one on one conversations that have really blessed me. So Gary, would you like to introduce yourself in any ways that would help the listener kind of get to know you? Sure.

Gary Thomas  04:17

Look, I’ve been married for 41 years. Have three adult kids, two wonderful little grandchildren. I’ve been a pastor and writer for most of my life, a writer more than just a pastor, currently on the teaching team at Cherry Hills Community Church in just south of Denver, Colorado. So I talk some, I write a lot. I love doing both. Very grateful to God that he’s given me this life because Belah, there’s not anything else anybody would pay me to do. We’ve had a broken handle in our shower for a week that I can’t figure out how to get to turn on. We’ve got a lock in the Belah. Back of the house that it won’t close, and I don’t know why and how, and so I’m just grateful that this writing thing kind of came through.

Belah Rose  05:12

That is awesome. Very, very good. Well, today we wanted to dive in specifically to extramarital attraction. I saw a article you had written a few weeks ago, or maybe months ago now, but you called it the girl with the bicycle, I believe. And I’m curious, if you could just share that story a little bit, and we’ll go from there.

Gary Thomas  05:38

Yeah, there will always be a girl on the bicycle is the point. And here’s why I stress that it’s a French, German film, just because I don’t watch hardly any contemporary films anymore, because I’m not into comic books. And then, you know, to be honest, Belah just a lot of the wokeness, it just feels like they’re trying to annoy me. So I go out, I’ll see a lot of international films, and this one’s and this one’s been out for a while, and it’s the story. It’s French, German. So the guy’s a bus driver driving around Paris. He’s been engaged to this wonderful woman. He gets engaged, wonderful. It seems like they have a strong relationship, a good match. He’s thrilled that she says yes, and as the wedding is getting closer, he’s driving along in his bus, and he sees outside the window this girl on the bicycle who just turns and smiles at him, and there’s this ping moment where he just is enraptured by her. And so he’s taking this tour around, and he’s chasing her around Paris on the bus. Well, of course he loses her, and that, in real life, would be the end of it. This is Paris, but of course, he sees her again and again, and then, long story short, ends up accidentally running into her. And now he’s gotta try to take care of her, because he feels bad about that, but he’s got to tell his fiance why he’s leaving. But the scene in question that I wrote about that really hit me is he had his friend who spoke some wisdom that the main guy in the movie didn’t quite get, but I think every viewer does, because he was talking about it, what’s he going to do? And He said to him, mate, there will always be a girl on a bicycle. And that’s a great line, that the reason you make a commitment is in part, because there’s always going to be someone that’s going to catch your eye. It could be, I don’t know, a guy on a construction site. It could be a policeman, it could be a girl on a bicycle or or whatnot. But there’s always going to be a moment when you see somebody, they catch your eye. And the reason we make a commitment is that we know what to do with it, and we know what not to do with it. I’ve asked a question in many Well, I started speaking on this more. I don’t like talking on this topic. I was just talking with Lisa, my wife, last night, about it. I It’s not fun, but it’s so needed, because every time I do what I hear the people say is nobody in church ever talks about this. And I open up with this question, Belah, if somebody has been married for 50 or 60 years, what’s the average number of extramarital attractions? We could call it infatuation. Maybe that sounds too intense, but infatuations, how many times should you expect to become infatuated with someone who’s not your spouse?

Belah Rose  08:39

Are you asking me? Would you take a guess? Yeah, I think I heard you answer this question before, but before you asked, I would have said, That’s horrible. That never happens. That’s, that’s, but I think you might have told me three to five or something crazy it

Gary Thomas  08:55

it’s five to six, according to Avida often, she was a pioneering sexual therapist. She’s now deceased. But I asked this question at a Texas church last weekend, and I kept hearing women yell out zero, right? I heard guys yell out big numbers. And it’s interesting because a pastor came up to me and said, Girl, I want you to notice something that it was only the women who said zero, and Belah, some of them hold to it pretty tightly, as if there’s something wrong with your relationship or your marriage, or something ungodly if you experience an extramarital attraction, I believe we need to normalize it, because it look it’s different for everybody, the same thing is the first time. Infatuation can be different for everybody. But it’s not necessarily something you choose. That phrase falling in love speaks of an appropriate passivity. You see somebody across the room, just something happens. Nobody, I think, is responsible for that. What we are responsible for? Four is what happens when that happens? How do we respond? Do we give meaning to it? We just say, Oh, this is my my brain’s playing fun games with me, but it’s not a big deal or whatnot. Now, I’ll admit, five to six seems high to me. My wife and I have talked about this. She would say there’s just been one in in 41 years of marriage, although that one was kind of hurtful, because the guy had a ponytail, and when your husband’s bald, I don’t think you should get infatuated with a guy who has a ponytail. I’ve had two early on in our marriage hasn’t been anything for probably, I don’t know, 30 years. And I didn’t handle the first one well, but that really helped me to handle the second one much better. Because the second one, the first one, I’m thinking, did I marry the wrong person? What does this mean? Is there something wrong with my marriage? I gave meaning to it because I thought this isn’t supposed to happen, right? And that’s what I would say to the viewers that are pushing back. Ideally, it wouldn’t happen. I don’t like it. For Lisa and I, for 30 years, it hasn’t but what are you going to do if it does and you don’t choose for it to happen? And so on the second one, when it when it happened, it wasn’t a big deal at all. I recognized what was going on at that time. I didn’t even share it with my wife. I shared it with a group of guys that I was in an accountability group with and and we talked about it, and they would ask me questions, because they were good friends every month or two, everything going Yeah, because I didn’t have any contact with her, and it literally was just a blip on the screen. The difference Belah is that I was forewarned, and so I was forearmed. The first time I was caught completely off guard. I gave it meaning that it didn’t need to have and it could have become disastrous. I mean, nothing physical ever happened. But as you know, emotional connections could be even more harmful, well, painful to a wife than physical ones.

Belah Rose  12:02

Yeah, that is so, so good. I love that you talked about normalizing it because you are not, you’re not guarded if you, if you think that it’s not supposed to happen, that it’s not going to happen. And I think it does happen with women. And I think, actually, I do remember when it happened with me, and I remember thinking that this was I was really scared. Actually, it really scared me, and and, and I did have some gals that I could confide in. But can you talk a little bit about that? That’s pretty amazing, that you had guys that you were like, gotta get this in the light. I mean, is that what you were thinking?

Gary Thomas  12:39

Well, it’s because of what happened with the first one. Because Belah the first one, you know, I’m conscientious believer, and I’m feeling this, but I’m thinking, well, nothing physical has ever happened. We never so much as held hands. Alright, so there’s no so I’m fooling myself, thinking, all right, this, this is I’m feeling this, but it’s okay. It’s not a big deal. And so we had her over for dinner, and then it was after that dinner when she left, and my wife said, Do you have feelings for her? I’m like, Well, why would you say that? Which Belah, whenever a husband answers a question indirectly, you know, he’s stalling for time. That’s what I didn’t it was like, No, right? Instead. Well, why would you ask that? And then this is where it blew open, and Lisa said, because you look at her like you used to look at me and look I felt terrible. Lisa felt terrible. We brought in three pastors. I was in a solid community, and they just sort of took over. They took charge. Gary, this is what’s going to happen. I credit them. I also credit the one that I was infatuated with. I think she, in the end, had a pretty mature response as well. I think I had the least mature response. And so I felt terrible, but, but Belah, I look back and here’s here’s the situation. Lisa and I were so set up. We had a very colicky baby at the point. And when I say colicky, if you’ve had a colicky baby, not like this one, literally, could cry three to four hours into the night, would cry herself to sleep every night. Lisa was a young mom. Didn’t have any friends her age who were also having kids, so she felt alone. I was an English major, which meant I had to work three jobs because none of them paid pretty much, right? I mentioned I was glad the writing worked out right, and so Lisa’s upset. My husband’s never home, but we don’t have any money, and he can’t fix anything around the home. Her dad was a mister fix it. My dad was a mister fix it. So even though we didn’t have money, since we have to pay people to do things that her dad or my dad would do, and I just felt like a failure, failure, failure, failure. I mean, it was just like I couldn’t do anything right. And Lisa had some very legitimate frustrations. With me. And so when I noticed these feelings happening, here’s where I went wrong. I said, because there were reasons we were getting together. And I just said, Look, I just, I just don’t want us to meet anymore, but it’s been so helpful. Why? Why would you want to stop? And I this is where I made the mistake I shouldn’t have ever gone here. But I just said, Well, my family’s really important to me. I don’t want to put that at risk. And then she’s just like, I just can’t believe it. And I said, why she goes? We you’re just so perfect. Belah, I’ve never been high, and I’ve never been drunk, but I can’t imagine any substance given me an endorphin hit like I got hearing that when you feel like, failure, failure, failure, and somebody says not just that you’re great, but you’re just so perfect. And you know, then it was like, well, and it was just, I could see it happening. Lisa and I have both said, looking back, we wish we could now be a mentor couple with that young couple, and put our arms around them. Okay, here’s what’s going on. This is natural. This is to be expected. This is what you do this. This is how you begin to rebuild things. This is not only not surprising. It’s almost predictable, but it’s going to be okay, just like we also wish we could go back and write a check to that young couple because they were so broke, but But what we can do now, and what Lisa and I are doing, is working with younger couples, because every time we talk about this, it comes up and again, they’re just grateful saying in the church, why don’t we ever talk about this? Well, it makes us uneasy. We think somehow it should never happen, and I think in an ideal world that wouldn’t but I just want people think reasonably. Is it reasonable that just because you’re married, you’ll never meet someone that really catches your eye and their personality, and just something at a moment and and if you think already you’re doing something wrong, I’m just saying spiritually, as a pastor, it makes you feel like, well, I’ve already messed up, and so I can go further down the road. And when you recognize it’s just something that happens, and what I’m responsible for is how I respond, then it’s an entirely different thing. And like I said, the second time it happened, so the third time, I don’t know if there’ll be a third time. I’m not afraid of it, because, look, I just made such a firm commitment back then, this must not ever happen again. And and so when I’m talking too much, but, but here’s where I would put it on for Christians, I use two verses from Ephesians, 522, and 25 now wise might hate the first one, but they listen to you so they can’t hate it too much. Wives submit to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. I want to emphasize, look, you can define submit how you want to. I want him to think about as you do to the Lord and the guys. Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her two statements come out of that. We don’t look at our relationship just based on what we want or what we’re getting. We do it on this I must be as faithful to my spouse as God is faithful to me, and I must be as committed to my spouse as Christ is committed to the church. Now, Christ is committed to a very imperfect church. Christ is committed to a church that sometimes seems to be pushing him out. And so in my marriage, I’m just looking at it, okay, Gary, you’ve made that commitment. You have these feelings, what are you going to do with them? And we can get into what to do and what not to do. But I just think it’s important for us to make this seem somewhat normal, even though it’s scary, because when it’s normal, then we can address it in a healthy way,

Belah Rose  19:04

exactly, exactly. And you said something really powerful, that if you feel, if you have these feelings, and then you say to yourself, Well, I’ve already messed up, because I feel these ways, so then it’s so easy to justify. Well, if I already messed up, might as well do the next step and the next step and the next step, because I’m already there.

Gary Thomas  19:23

Yep, I already had a sip of alcohol. So why don’t I go ahead and get drunk again. We’ve already kissed Well, why don’t we just go off to the I mean, that’s one of Satan’s favorite lies. You’ve already blown it. So just throw everything to the wind.

Belah Rose  19:40

That’s right, that’s right. So it’s powerful. So you’re saying that because you tripped into these feelings, however, you know, unwise way that, and we’ll talk about that in a moment. But you’re saying the actual having the attraction is not the sin. Would you say that’s true? Absolutely?

Gary Thomas  20:00

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so that’s a normal part of life to be impressed by somebody. Or I don’t think it shuts down just because we get married. What does shut down is our considering following up on it or ever having a future with it?

Belah Rose  20:16

Yes. Okay, so what do you think? First of all, makes us vulnerable to this. Like, what are some ways that folks can say, Okay, well, okay, let me first say, I think some personalities are more vulnerable to this than others. Would you agree with that person?

Gary Thomas  20:35

Yes, and let me say I was so set up. I was overly I was overly a romantic when I first got married, I watched three movies a week back when you had to go to theaters to see him. I just was so young. I had romantic notions of what love should be, and it was so difficult for us our first few years that I just think I was set up from a wrong belief system. And so I do think perhaps, and look, I was that way. I was infatuated in kindergarten. I mean, I I always love God, but I knew if I’m getting infatuated in kindergarten, I’m not going to be a monk, right when, when Sally gave me her pack of Partridge Family trading cards. I mean, I was smitten, I got to follow this up. And there really wasn’t much time in high school or junior high or college when I didn’t have a girlfriend. If I lost one, I was getting a new one. So never was I healthy in this area, and so I’ve been married with a series of romantic relationships. Looking back, it doesn’t surprise me that that romance would hit me again.

Belah Rose  21:46

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So if you think about prescriptively for people, particularly people that it would be easier for them to get infatuated, but even even those that don’t as to your point, we all are susceptible, and that’s what the Bible says. What is that? Is it first, Corinthians, 10, be careful that if you think you won’t fall, you have to be careful because you will, you have to, like, that’s the exact moment. So what is it that makes us vulnerable to it? And how do we how do we get get some guardrails in place to make it harder.

Gary Thomas  22:23

Yeah, okay, let me deal with the guardrail and then what makes us first vulnerable. After that happened, my wife and I made a commitment. I just made a decision that Lisa, for the rest of my life, gets a veto over every relationship that I have, because we have the same end. We want to keep each other first until the day we die. And if I have a relationship, I’ve already been blind to it, right? I didn’t even see it the way that Lisa saw it. And so I recognize if I’ve been blind before, I could be blind again. So she gets a veto relationship, if it’s a Facebook friend she has, knows every password she can use my phone or my iPad or my computer, all of that 100% out. And I think with that sense of trust, she’s never there’s only one time in the last 20 years where she raised a situation where we had a social circle where there’s one single woman, Lisa said, Garrett, I just want you to be careful with her. I don’t know she saw something way she looked at me, and I wasn’t feeling anything, but I’m like, Okay, I just don’t think you I want you guys to text or anything, and I that’s fine, just and if I die, I don’t want you to marry her. Okay? Why that came up, but we have the same end and where I’m concerned. When I’ve worked with couples and I’ve worked with husbands, where the wife is concerned about a work friend or something, or a previous friend or whatnot, and the guy might even make a promise, okay, we’re not going to contact her again. And then she finds out he has texted her and he thinks she’s making too much of it. Gary, we’ve never so much as kiss. We’ve never held hands. She’s just a friend. And I’m asking the husband, How can you be intimate with a wife? How can you make your wife feel cherished if you’re willing to sustain a relationship that threatens her like I have two grandkids. If there’s a pit bull on the other side of the fence and they’re afraid, I’m not going to say, don’t be a scaredy cat. You know. I’m going to I’m going to get them away from there if I want my wife to feel safe and secure in our relationship and to feel cherished. She needs to know every other relationship subsumes itself to that one. And he pushed back, saying, but Gary, if I cut off all contact, my friend will be hurt. And I said, Yes, she will, but your wife is hurt. You gotta decide somebody’s going to lose here, when you get married, you make. A decision that your wife doesn’t get hurt, this other person gets hurt, and they will never have an intimate marriage Belah until he’s willing to find that just be committed to his wife that way. Now I found with women, they’re often worried about the wrong thing. When women think about guys strain, they’re often thinking, Oh, no, he’s working with this very attractive woman, or there’s this neighbor who’s in great shape or whatnot. But that’s not usually what I see happening, I think, with some shallow guys, if you’re talking one night stands, and a guy that lives that lifestyle, maybe. But I’m talking to women who are married to decent guys. Let’s, let’s even say Christian guys, where they’re they didn’t live that way before, and they’re probably not going to live that way again. Marlene Dietrich, younger people won’t know that she was like the screen beauty of her day prior to Marilyn Monroe. She was seen as the leading lady. She had a line, the average man is more interested in a woman who is interested in him than He is in a woman with beautiful legs. Marlene Dietrich had beautiful legs and she got it. She said, women are so afraid of me. She goes, but, but the three things Belah that will capture a good guy. I’m not talking about just a shallow guy or Casanova are smile, eye contact and touching. Now, why is that so powerful to guy? Let’s say a guy’s been married 10 years. They have a baby and a toddler. He comes home when’s the last time he’s seen his wife smiling? She’s tired. I’m not blaming her, please. This is not but she’s she’s tired. She’s angry. Did you pick that up at the grocery I can’t believe you forgot that the grocery store. Here you take them. I’m done. Look, I asked if you would fix that step. It’s still there. Timmy almost got hurt today so he can he might not remember the last time he’s seen his wife smile and eye contact. She’s too busy looking at the kids or the kitchen that needs to be cleaned or the house project that isn’t done. And again, this is understandable. I am not piling on the wife. I’m just saying this is what often happens, she’s got a good reason to be looking at eye contact elsewhere and touching how many wives have told me, Gary, I’ve had little kids pawing me all day long. I don’t want a husband coming home and hugging me and getting the wrong idea. And so he goes to the office, and there’s this woman who smiles at him and look that and makes eye contact. That releases oxytocin, that’s just a neurochemical reaction. And then if they’re laughing, and it might feel innocent, she just reaches over and touches him on the elbow, and then there’s this electric shock a woman is touching him initiate and, and so I would just say to the wives, you got to know who your man is. If he’s not just a jerk, it’s it’s probably not that he’s comparing you to another woman’s beauty. It’s often the marriage is just in a difficult situation and and certain things can make him more vulnerable. Now, I found with a lot of wives where they fall the guys will often try to woo them, and they’ll use romance because they know women are open to romance, but I want the wives to hear how evil these romantic phrases are. First one, I just wish I could talk with my wife the way I can talk to you now. One likes, oh man, he and then you want to feel sorry for him, but what wives? What? What is he doing? He is stepping on his wife to woo you. He’s tearing down his wife to make you feel better. Is that a holy thing to do, or is that a vile thing to do? Second way he’ll try to woo her. Your husband doesn’t realize how good he has it, what a wonderful woman he gets to spend this life with now She probably feels taken for granted by her husband. Often, women tell me they feel invisible that their husband doesn’t see them, their husband doesn’t notice them, their husband doesn’t appreciate him. But here’s what he’s doing. Okay, I’m going to tear down my wife to build you up, and I’m going to tear down your husband to get close to you. Now it is vile and evil for me to try to come in between any marriage, there’s very likely kids involved. She’s made a promise to God. She’s made promise to another man. So now it sounds romantic, but it’s evil. Oh, your husband. I’m going to tear your husband down so that you and I have a chance. And the third. Third Way. Guy will often try to wife. And I heard this a lot with well, we all heard this a lot when women would talk about having some kind of inappropriate relationship with a Christian celebrity, and the guy would tell him, Well, my wife and I have more of a business relationship than any real passion. Now, what that tells me is, he’s the guy. He doesn’t know how to build a real relationship. As I want to say was, do you want to build a future with a guy that is committed to this woman? He’s had decades and he still hasn’t built a cherishing relationship with her. You probably want to be cherished. He has failed to cherish his wife, he’s let it become a business relationship. Is this a future you want to have? So yeah, I think women can be wooed by these emotional things. I want them to see the evil behind it. I think guys can be wooed by the normal things that’s difficult for a woman to offer a husband when she’s in a busy stage of life. And so when you see that happening, say, oh, okay, this is what’s going on time for me to be as committed to my wife as Christ is committed to the church, to be as faithful to my spouse as God is faithful to me, and to double down on my marriage, and not to spend one second thinking about this, planning this, or certainly going down the road pursuing this,

Belah Rose  31:24

yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, so what? Obviously, everything starts in the mind. Starts in the feeling section. What happens when that is there? And what do they do next? How do they get out of this? How do they untangle these feelings and get this out of their head, this other person?

Gary Thomas  31:47

Let’s do we have time to talk about the steps to an affair? Yes, because Go ahead, if we talk about the 11 steps to an affair, then you realize you could stop at every step and how dangerous it is to advance from step one to two to three before it might take a little bit of time, but the first one I found is this, the worst thing you can do is to share your feelings. You want to know it’s natural, I feel this way. Do you feel this way? But just to recognize that should be irrelevant, it really doesn’t matter, and it’s more dangerous to know. And so the first step of affair I’m I’m basing this off a woman named Debbie. Put this online, and I can’t find out where I found it. I hate to ever plagiarize anybody, and I’ve tweaked him a little bit. But if she’s out there, send me the link. I’ll start citing you. It’s one of those things I was doing research, and the link dropped off. And I don’t know why I couldn’t find it, but it was steps to her affair. And so she had had an affair, she thought, oh, this was not good. So she said the steps to her affair, the first one was, you share your marital frustrations with each other. And Belah, I think that’s an absolute. I think you would stop 50% of affairs if the husbands and wives listening make a commitment, I will never share marital frustrations with a member of the opposite sex. That’s something I could share with my guy group, something I could share with a pastor or a counselor. There is no good reason for me to share my marital frustrations with another woman or you with another man. Now, some people might say, well, I want a woman’s perspective granted. When Lisa and I were much younger and we were coming out of this and I’d have issues. What does this mean? There was a woman married to the best man at my wedding. They’ve been lifelong friends, and I would talk to her and her husband together, right? Is as safe a situation as it could be. There’s no way I’m going to, you know, it was just so, yeah, there are healthy ways to get a woman’s opinion, but I’m not going to go to any woman alone, and I’m going to be very careful even about that situation. The second one is quick

Belah Rose  33:57

question. Now, what if the counselor is a female or, you know, different,

Gary Thomas  34:03

that’s different, that’s a there’s a redemptive purpose there. And I’m fine with guys going to female counselors. I think if the female counselor is wise, knowing now, I think he needs to see a guy counselor, that’s probably better. I’ve always gone to guys, but I’m I’m not one that thinks necessarily, that’s how you have to do it. So, yeah, got it, okay? I’m talking about at work or at church or a friend or a neighbor outside of a professional situation. Yeah, I just Yep. There’s just no reason that nothing good can come out of that. And the second step was you, you sense an attraction to this person, and since they are attracted you, so you’re sharing your marital frustrations. That’s objective. Now it starts to become personal. Oh, but I’m feeling toward her or. Or she’s like, Oh, but I’m feeling toward him. Okay, now you’re really setting up an affair. The third thing I’ve seen this so many times you take extra time to get ready. Women are thinking twice about what clothes they want to wear, what perfume they’re going to spray. I’ve seen guys, and now I get suspicious when a guy loses 20 pounds off his gut and puts it on his shoulders and biceps. I get a little suspicious, because often it’s just motivation to get in shape. And when you think about, if you’re thinking about dressing for another man that’s not your husband, or getting in shape for a woman that’s not your wife, you’re setting up the prelude to an affair. You’re trying to woo that person, and that’s inappropriate. And then fourth, and this is really where the prelude ends, but the and fair begins. You think about this person even when you’re not interacting with them. Now you’re really kind of starting an affair. And here’s what I mean by this, most of us are busy. I’m committed to cherishing my wife, staying connected with my kids, being a good friend, communing with God, living in the presence of God. If I’m thinking about a woman I’m not married to, I’m stealing time from someone I’ve committed to think about and to give energy to and to have initiative that’s already in my mind an affair. There’s, there’s no reason for me to be thinking about another person. So we’re four steps in, and I think at that point you’re really beginning an affair. And the second level, I call it actually practicing affair. And this is number five. You start fantasizing about being together as a couple. Now, you might be fully clothed in this fantasy. You might be, I don’t know, sailing, canoeing, taking a walk in the park, but here’s why this is so dangerous. Belah, our brains and this, is a danger of porn and other things. Doesn’t always do a great job about distinguishing between fantasy and reality. And so if you’re fantasizing about being with another person that’s not your spouse, your brain feels like you’ve already been there when you’re with them in person. And so you’ve really removed a high barrier. I’ve already done this. My guard isn’t up. My brain isn’t saying, danger, danger. Danger is like, Oh, I’m I’m familiar with this. It’s sort of like you’re mentally preparing yourself to have an affair. Then six you manipulate circumstances to spend time together. At first it was happenstance. Let’s say you work together. Okay, he’s there, she’s there, whatnot, and then half a day’s gone by and you haven’t seen him, and now you miss it, and you’ve been thinking about him so well, I guess I need to go to the warehouse, or I need to go by that office. I need to go down that hallway, because the water is better from that water fountain than this water but, but you’re, you know, you’re manipulating circumstances to get together, and then that leads to playful banter, teasing and flirtation. And that is, you’re trying each other out. You’re sort of flirting in a way. You know it’s playful. Again, you’re not holding hands, you’re not kissing, but you know it’s being returned, and then they return it, and that’s fun. And so you’re really removing a normal barrier. And then number eight, here’s what happens. Friends notice, and they say, Hey, what’s going on with you two and you say, Oh, we’re just friends. We’re just friends. Let me say to every viewer out there, if somebody says what’s going on with the two of you, it’s because something is going on between the two of you. They’re objective. They see what you don’t. You’re blinded. People don’t say that. If there isn’t something going on, if I’m behaving appropriately with every other woman, nobody’s going to come up and say, what would I mean? Look, there might be extreme cases of pathological jealousy, or somebody that just has some issues and they’re trying to create drama that isn’t there, but, but you know, if it’s a friend of mine, or if it’s someone else, or a co worker that I know is generally healthy, and they’re saying it, that tells me something is going on. So at that point, again, I think it’s a different level of an affair. And then you have steps 910, and 11, and this is flat out, practicing affair, meeting together in secrecy. Alright, why is it in secrecy? Because you don’t know what anybody to see. There should be no situation when I’m with another woman that I don’t want other people to see. I mean, just, just flat out, I’m, you know, there. It. There just isn’t a good reason. And I know some people push back on the Billy Graham rule, it’s fine. I’m not saying you have to do that or that, but that’s different than meeting together in secrecy. That’s different than sitting out in a parking lot at 10pm when it’s dark, outside in a car together, or driving 30 minutes to be at a restaurant where nobody can see you. That that, I think is, again, you’re taking time from your wife or your kids or your friends, that’s practicing it.

Belah Rose  40:34

What was the Billy Graham rule? I think I know it. But yeah, the

Gary Thomas  40:39

Billy Graham rule is never being alone with a woman that’s not your wife.

Belah Rose  40:44

Got it got it got it got. Yeah, we can circle back to kind

Gary Thomas  40:48

of a funny story about that. I think I can share this. I’ve been at the cove many times. The Cove is Billy Graham Training Center, and I ended up breaking the Billy Graham rule with Billy Graham’s daughter Gigi Graham. Gigi is 80. She is godly. She loves the Lord. She’s delightful. We’re working I was working on a book. I was interviewing her, because she’s so wise. She’s got some great experience and hilarious stories. And I had to get feedback on this chapter, because I wrote it up, and then we were going to go through it, and she’s going to and I was speaking at the cove, and she’s well, after you’re done speaking, let’s go back to the green room, and, you know, we’ll go through the chapters. And so people could come in and out, but we were sitting in a room together, and I was kind of thinking, Man, I’m breaking the Billy Graham rule of Billy Graham. But you know what? My wife was 100% fine with it. People could walk in and if I had told Gigi, I can’t meet you back there she went. Well, why not? If I mentioned the Billy Graham rule, Gigi is so colorful. Oh, in your dreams, Gary. So I felt like it was, you know, we don’t have to be too legalistic. But look, we all know there are situations that are not healthy, so I’m not saying you have to go strict. Billy Graham roll, but that means that you’re still being wise. Number 10, yep, is texting and calling one woman. This is a woman that told me this, Belah. I knew the affair was going to happen the first time I erased a text message I didn’t want my husband to see. And so I’m just saying if you were erasing phone messages and you’re erasing text messages, if someone is in your phone with a fake name because you don’t want your spouse to see who it is that they’re calling. That’s an affair. All right, you’re setting yourself up. You’re putting all the pieces into place that now we’re going to have an affair. Number 11 is intimate contact. But notice that’s number 11. And so if you know these 11 steps, you can say, Man, I’m at three, I gotta go back. I’m at five. I’m getting too close seven. We’re in the danger zone. They usually, I think, with reasonable, Healthy People, don’t just happen again. I’m not talking about one night stands, which I think is a level of spiritual fallenness that some need to guard it. I mean, if look, if that’s your past, and that’s what you’ve done, I think you still need to guard against it. Just a lot of the couples I work with that wasn’t their lifestyle, it’s not their lifestyle, and they more weighed into the affair, rather than just sort of, you know, one night stand, fall into it.

Belah Rose  43:43

That is so powerful. Gary, I have got to tell you. I mean, that is golden that, I mean, that is going to save families, right there, those 11 steps that is so powerful. Okay, so somebody finds themselves, let’s just say in the prelude, because I think the Prelude is the part that is one through four that is very easy to walk into without thinking anything of it. So what do Yeah, what? What does it look like to walk out of that let’s say, let’s say they got to four. They’re thinking about this person, even when they’re not with that person. How do you get your it out of your mind? What are your thoughts

Gary Thomas  44:23

there? Okay, learn, learn to laugh at yourself. There’s a 2014 movie called at Middleton. I’m not recommending the movie here, but there was a good line from it. I watched it because Vera Farmiga and Andy Garcia were in it. I kind of think they’re both great actors, and it’s your classic kind of rom com where they’re both dropping their kids off for touring a school that they might go to, or they’ve been accepted in its initiation one or the other. And it starts like a rom com does? They fight over a parking spot, right? So they hate each other. He is a you. A buttoned up doctor, and she is the kind of carefree kind of personality. And so it start they hate each other, and they’re snapping at each other, but throughout the day, they’re thrown into circumstances where they’re spending more and more time together. Then they have a meal together, and then they go off, and then they share something. And again, Belah, this is so predictable, I would have looked at both of them. Hey, doctor, when’s the last time you spent a day talking and walking and having three meals with your wife? And say, Mrs. Free Spirit, when’s the last time you’ve gotten away with your husband? And so you can just kind of see him falling in love, and at the end of the day, Andy Garcia asked Vera Farmiga, well, what does this mean? She’s a more little more research, because what do you mean? What does this mean? It says to her, don’t tell me you’re not feeling what I am. And I wanted to shout at the screen, what does it matter what you’re feeling? Yeah. Are you seriously going to throw out a commitment to your spouse and your God, because you’re having romantic feelings after having a fun day, when you probably have a life where you have no fun days, and he kind of shared he was a workaholic. He wasn’t taking time to have fun. I like having fun. She’s here, and you put your effect. So I just think, learn to look at it like, you know what? Situationally, this is not a good time for my marriage. That doesn’t mean I’m married to the wrong person. What it does mean is that my marriage is is vulnerable and weak, and I’ve got to see it for what it is. But this person isn’t going to do it. Two heartbreaking stories, and they’ve been they’ve been repeated so many times. A woman, again, young kids, her husband admittedly disrespecting her. She had this vision for a non profit. Her husband wasn’t supporting her dream. He kind of thought, well, this is your little thing on the side. He was really occupied in his vocation. He wasn’t emotionally available, and so she’s working on this nonprofit with a guy who’s divorced, and he thinks, oh, that’s brilliant, and you’re perfect, and you’re wonderful at this. And they go away to a conference. They end up finally, I mean, it’s been building up over months. They’re away at a conference. She has some alcohol, they end up sleeping together. Belah, this is so sad, but it’s how Satan operates. She said, as soon as it was over, I look over at this guy who was larger than life, and I realize he’s just a dude in my bed. It’s like Satan says, this is going to be this is it. He’s the one. This is so wonderful. And it builds and it builds and it builds, and then you consummate it, and you end up with, he’s just a dude in the bed, yeah? And with guys, they think this woman is an angel. She’s fun. She looks at him, she smiles at him. She wants to touch him, and his wife isn’t doing any of that. And so they go off and they have an affair, and then they’re shocked that she wants him to leave his wife and get away from his kids. And he was telling me she’s an angel, and now he thinks she’s a devil. I’m like, No, you’re just a messed up man. She was never an angel. She’s never a devil. You’re a messed up man with messed up this happens all the time. In fact, the statistics, I want every guy to hear this, because the statistics are so overwhelming, 87% of men who cheat on their wives want to go back after the affair. IS OVER NINE out of 10, basically, will wake up and say, I’ve made the biggest mistake of my life. Guys, you want to bring that pain into your wife’s life? Women, do you want to bring that pain in Jasmine, that woman that woke up with just a dude in the bed? It happened one time 30 minutes, and it took a year for that marriage to come back to it was so much grief and so much intimacy stolen, because obviously she’s not going to be with her husband then, I mean, it’s just, it was just she paid a stupendously high cost for just almost No payout. And guys do that as well. And when you know, nine out of 10 of guys wish the affair never happened, they want to go back to their wife, only two to 3% of affairs morph into long term relationships. Wow. So you’re experiencing something, but it rarely does, and when it does morph into a long term relationship, 85 to 95% of those relationships end in divorce. This is the same odds as playing the lottery. All right, you’re not going to win. You might meet a people occasionally, but there are legions of others who. Have destroyed their integrity, hurt the woman they love the most, or the man they committed to, destroyed their kids home, grieved the God they worship, and Satan gives them virtually nothing in return but regret and shame and tears and pain. Yeah, and so I just you got to think that, take that long term view, there is no future in this, my family. It’s not worth it. I’m going to regret this. And so the three things, Belah, this is really key look. This is like junior high level preaching to a youth group about relationships. But it fits here, time, talk and touch. Those are the three things that feed a relationship, and they’ll feed an affair. If you withhold those, the infatuation is going to die if you’re not spending time with this person, if you’re not talking to this person, I’m going to add a 40 thought, time talk, touch and thought, if you’re not thinking about this person, and if you’re not touching this person, the affection will die. It can’t continue to live on. If it has legs, it’s because one of those 4t are still going on in your life. And so just say, I’m going to purposely starve this infatuation. I didn’t choose it, but I didn’t choose to have it, but I can choose to kill it.

Belah Rose  51:24

I love what you said a minute ago. You also you said, learn to laugh at yourself. Can you go into that just a little bit more when you’re when you’re having these feelings or these thoughts? Let’s say that’s really the battlefield that that somebody’s dealing with. What do you mean by laughing at yourself in that?

Gary Thomas  51:42

What is recognize? Oh, there I go again. Maybe you’re an over romantic. There I go again. Maybe you’re more drawn to the physical. Maybe I don’t you help me with the way women would think, well, are you humbly? Yeah, you humbly Look at yourself. Oh, there you go again, Gary. You’re being Gary. And you just learn to say, but you know what? You don’t have to mess up like that. This is a whole different example, but here’s what I mean about laughing at yourself. I’m not clinically OCD, but I live in the neighborhood right next door to it, right I can have obsessions, and I can’t do this anymore because of a right knee, but I was running two marathons a year, really working hard, trying to qualify for Boston and whatnot, and I could get obsessive about it. When we lived in the Pacific Northwest, when I lived up in Bellingham. I’d take flights in Seattle, it’s about 90 miles, and often I would stop and run around Green Green Lake. It’s a about a three mile lake in Seattle. It’s nice little run, but I always had to drive home for an hour and a half because of traffic in sweaty clothes. So I was thrilled when my son, he worked for the Bill Gates Foundation for a couple years, got an apartment two blocks away from Green Lake. I said, Oh, this is so cool. Now I can go for run around Green Lake. I know a guy where I can get a shower. This is win, win. And so the first time we were there to visit him, we had this day going, I said, but if we eat now I don’t, then I have to wait before I run. Or if we wait and and my wife just looked at me and said, Gary, maybe you only have time to run five miles. I thought I had to run 10 that day. Maybe you only run five miles. And I realized what I was doing. I was taking my obsessive nature. I gotta get a 10 Mile Run in. I’m trying to get everybody to fit their day around it and like, okay, that’s not who I want to be. This is Gary being Gary. Gary. Don’t be that Gary. Be the Gary who’s there to encourage to give way and be a part of others. I did end up later in the day getting to have a 10 Mile Run, but, but it’s just recognizing your weaknesses and kind of laughing at them so your weaknesses don’t control you anymore. And I think that’s where Lisa and I have both matured. When we were getting infatuated with others, is because we thought we had to be perfect, that if our spouse saw one thing they didn’t like about us, well, this isn’t true love, right? Look, Belah, there are some things about me a woman would have to be mentally disturbed to like, right? If my wife is healthy, she can put up with some of my stuff, but I can’t expect her to like it. And I think that she’s 41 years into marriage, I know she loves me, I know she respects me, I know she wants to still be with me. And so I can kind of admit, yeah, this. So however, the infatuation hits you women, if it’s, I don’t know if it’s a construction type guy, if it’s a physical attraction, if it’s an emotional attraction, if he’s the kind of guy that can woo you, say. Oh, man, I’m so susceptible to that. Silly me not going to work this time.

Belah Rose  55:06

I love it. I love it. I love it. So good. Laughing at yourself not going into that cycle or that. What does this mean? Do I even love my spouse anymore? Should I go in this direction and instead just, oh, that’s just okay, no biggie. Well, Gary, this has been a fantastic conversation. I really wish we could keep going, because I think it’s so deep in it, I feel like we should tell the listener the amount of tech issues we’ve had on this particular podcast. I don’t think it’s been years since I’ve had this much really, like this was ridiculous, and I really believe that, God, let us record it for the sake of this person listening. So if you’re listening, you needed this and stop, stop and go back. If you’re anywhere on that one to 11 scale, let’s, let’s get off. Let’s get off. Let’s stop the the the time, the talk, the touch, the thought. For the sake of your kids, for the sake of Jesus, you know how it I’ll, let I’ll, I’ll finish with one thought. Invite you to finish with one thought. So what I find so tragic about divorce and affairs, particularly is how it affects the gospel of Jesus Christ. Because everyone who knows that you’re a Christian and then finds out there was an affair or divorce or both, it affects their perspective of Jesus, if they weren’t a believer, or if they are and and we just it’s, it’s too high a cost. We can’t spiritually risk that. What final thing do you have to add?

Gary Thomas  56:43

Gary, well, let me add on to that a little bit. I want to say that to every couple that’s contemplating an affair, but if somebody has had an affair, if I could mention my book making your marriage a fortress, I have stories of a woman who had an affair and stories of a man who had an affair, what the couple did to rebuild their connection, working on emotional availability, the lessons they learned, and how both couples said, while we wish we didn’t have to have an affair to get to this level of intimacy, we would never want to go back to being the couple we were before. So if, if they need some encouragement, that your marriage can survive an affair, I’d point you toward that making your marriage a fortress. But please don’t fool yourself to thinking, okay, then it’s not going to be a big deal if I go on with this affair, because I’m telling you that the pain, the risk you’re putting your family in, it’s not worth. It far better to work through the issues and to use the temptation for an affair to redouble double down on your marriage than to use an actual affair and double down on your marriage,

Belah Rose  57:50

right, right? Would you mind praying for somebody who’s who’s absolutely listening? Thank you, Father,

Gary Thomas  57:58

Lord, we know that you are a kind, gracious and compassionate God. You tell us that throughout all of the Old Testament, and it’s repeated in the new that’s your nature. Whenever you speak challenging words or convicting words or convicting truth, the marriages would be one man and one woman for life, completely monogamous. It’s because you’re kind, it’s because you’re gracious, it’s because you know what is best. And so if somebody is feeling convicted, I just pray they could receive it as an act of mercy, a warning that you’re saying they don’t have to go further. Your Spirit will guide them. Lord, let them run to your church to find men or women who will walk with them and pull them back if they know I can’t stop this on my own, give them the strength and the courage to make that one phone call to someone else who can step in and be strong for them. Lord, we pray that kids, homes would be saved, yes, we pray that spouses, hearts would not be broken, Lord, we pray that your heart would not be broken, that we be true to the vows we have made before you, Lord, thank You for I just thank you for the wisdom of Debbie and others who have made mistakes and have shared their wisdom. And I pray that we could just use that father to protect our own hearts and our own marriages, that we could carry on that message of reconciliation, first by being reconciled to our spouse in Jesus name, Yes,

Belah Rose  59:25

amen, Jesus name, amen, Gary, this has been wonderful. Um, how can folks learn about you or follow you? Or what’s next for them to get in touch?

Gary Thomas  59:33

Well, two places. My website is my name, Gary thomas.com Gary thomas.com but where I’m best to interact with is on my sub stack. I like I’m on most of the social media things, but both Twitter and X think nobody wants to see anything I post. So I get 10s of 1000s of followers, and they show it to 35 people at 12pm midnight. So I’ve. Kind of given up there my assistant post, but where I’m interacting, people want to interact. It’s my sub stack. It’s Gary Thomas, simply sacred. A quick web site is connect to Gary com. Connect to gary.com will take you right to that Gary.

Belah Rose  1:00:16

Can I just do a plug for that sub stack? I only subscribe to a single marriage platform at all, and it is yours. So it’s true, it’s true. It’s really, it’s It’s refreshing. There’s, it’s a variety of topics you you’ve got around parenting and insight around wedding and intersight of they’re just, it’s refreshing and fun, and it’s a journey to walk alongside you, so I highly recommend it for the listener. Yeah, thank you, Gary, this was powerful, really powerful. I so appreciate it.

Belah Rose  1:01:02

You Gary, thank you, Gary, what a blessing. What an absolute honor and blessing. Gary, at the end of our conversation, you asked me to include a monolog talking about the in person training that we’re developing at delight your marriage. And so I’ll go ahead and do that. Basically we are changing our flagship programs, or we’re keeping our flagship coaching programs that you’ve likely heard about on the podcast, delight your marriage. Women’s Program and men’s program for delighted wife and masculinity reclaimed, and we’re actually turning those into in person trainings that people can host at their church or a Bible study or homeschooling group, whatever. And we have a men’s track separate from a women’s track, but it’s based on the material that has been tested, tried and true in our coaching and training programs. So if you’ve been to the delight your marriage podcast before you know that God uses this material and it’s different because it’s focused on men and women trained separately. We need different healing journeys. We need different things prevent us from connecting and unifying in emotional, physical and spiritual intimacy, and so we need to uproot those both in a men’s journey and a women’s journey separate. And then we also need the aspect of accountability, which is baked into the in person training with strong accountability, day by day, week by week. The third thing is habits. We really focus on habits, because isn’t marriage a habit? If you had parents that modeled an incredible, passionate, playful, fun, Christ centered marriage, you wouldn’t need a whole lot of material on it, because you know what to do, and you’ve done it forever, and your marriage is awesome. Marriage is built on habits, and so that’s what we really focus on. And another reason that we’re different is we are about long term change. We want this to not just be a shot in the arm, but we want these frameworks to be things that grow with you as you get better and as you apply more and more of Scripture. It’s Christ centered. It’s authentic, and by God’s grace, it’s already getting great results. We have it piloting and 16 programs around the country and Canada, and thrilled. Thrilled with the results already, and we’re only seven weeks in. It’s amazing. It’s a 12 week course. So reach out to us. Delight your marriage. COMM slash IPT for in person. Training is where you can find all sorts of information that will help you. And we’d love to do a direct presentation with you, if you’re a pastor and really give you all the information, or if you’re a facilitator looking to take this to your group, maybe a homeschooling group, or a men’s Bible study, or a woman’s Bible study, just people from all sorts of different churches coming together. It’s also great for non believers. We have some non believers going through the pilot training and starting to read the Bible. I mean, yeah, if we can give you an awesome marriage, isn’t that going to draw you closer to Jesus, pastors, missionaries, CEOs, folks I’ve worked with over years that God has changed them through this material, and now it’s in a opportunity for you to bring it to your own places. So wonderful. Looking forward to talking to you. Go to delight your marriage. COMM slash IPT to get more information and reach out to us. We would love to help you get this get more information to you. All right. Well, let’s go ahead and pray, and we’ll wrap it up. Lord Jesus, thank You for this one, thank you that they want to honor you with all that they do and yes, in their thought life, in their heart and the way they interact with others. I pray Jesus that you. Would give them what they need for their marriage to thrive, be protected against the wiles of the enemy the way he wants to destroy their marriage. God, I pray that every bit of Gary’s wisdom would be applied in the ways it needs to in their particular situation in Jesus name, amen, I just highly recommend you share this episode. You and I both know people need it. We need this kind of wisdom. It’ll save families before the affair ever happens or when things are starting to walk in the wrong direction. So I encourage you to share it, and you can just do a quick text message of, hey, this was really interesting to me. I wonder if you would want to listen to it. I found this to be helpful. I found this to be interesting. I was really surprised by this. Then it doesn’t put them on the spot. It just says, Hey, this was kind of interesting to me. I had no idea. But it’s not actually saying appointed you need this. Because, shoot, I need this. Come on. We all need this. All right, God bless you. Have a great day. Love you. Bye. You. You.