The organization was founded by Belah Rose who saw the crisis of marriages everywhere and wanted to ring the bell of HOPE! She heard a speaker admonish the listeners: “Don’t decide what you want to do with your life based on what others think you should, the money, or even ‘the sure thing.’ Instead, answer the question: ‘What is the work that needs to be done?'” For Belah, Delight Your Marriage was the resounding answer to that question.

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Love, Faith, and the Joy of Discovery: Interview with Nathan Rittenhouse

I have been a long time fan of Nathan Rittenhouse and his work at Thinking Out Loud Together and today, I had the incredible privilege of sitting down with Nathan Rittenhouse for our podcast!

Nathan is a speaker, apologist, and co-founder of Thinking Out Loud Together. Our conversation today was filled with rich insights about intimacy, humility, integrity, and the way marriage fits into God’s grand design. I truly can’t wait for you to hear it!

There’s so much to unpack, but here are some of the biggest takeaways from our conversation:

The Bigger Purpose of Marriage: Building a Legacy That Lasts

Nathan shared how his perspective on marriage has been deeply shaped by the generations of faithful, steady relationships in his family. He reminded us that marriage isn’t just about two people—it impacts generations. “What will my descendants 200 years from now say about the type of life I lived?” he asked. This long-term vision is something I would encourage every reader and listener to think about.

We often get so caught up in the day-to-day struggles of marriage, but when we zoom out, we see that every choice we make—every act of love, every moment of kindness, every decision to honor our spouse—ripples out for generations. What an incredible reason to be intentional about how we love, respect, and serve in our marriages!

Intimacy as Worship: God’s Design for Physical and Emotional Connection

One of the most powerful themes we explored was how intimacy—yes, physical intimacy—can actually be an act of worship.

Nathan pointed out that God designed the physical world—including our bodies—as good. And when we engage in intimacy within God’s design, it’s not just a physical act—it’s a deeply spiritual one. It’s an opportunity to delight in God’s creation, to experience His love, and to reflect His heart. Instead of something to be endured or achieved, it becomes something to celebrate—a way to glorify the Lord.

Sexuality & Integrity: Practicing Spiritual Discipline in Private

Nathan emphasized that our true selves are revealed in private moments. He highlighted Jesus’ words in Matthew 6, where He speaks about the Father rewarding what is done in secret. And that’s so important when it comes to things like purity, faithfulness, and battling temptations like pornography.

True integrity means being the same person in private that we present in public. Or as Nathan said, “Preach what you practice”, not just practice what you preach, but actually live with such integrity that your life naturally becomes the message.

The Power of Male Friendships: Emotional Support & Community for Men

Nathan and I also talked about something that’s so often overlooked: the power of godly male friendships.

He pointed out that a lot of men struggling in their marriages—whether it’s loneliness, unmet expectations, or just feeling stuck—often lack deep, strong friendships with other men. And part of the problem is that our culture has sexualized everything– including strong, male friendships- making it difficult for men to form those healthy, meaningful bonds.

But here’s the thing: God designed men to need other men in their lives. Just like women thrive when they have strong female friendships, men need brothers—not just surface-level friendships, but real, deep, iron-sharpening-iron relationships.

Christian Hope in Marriage: Finding Strength in God’s Design

We also discussed that unity in marriage is a byproduct of a shared focus on Christ. Unity in marriage isn’t found by fixing our eyes on each other—it’s found by fixing our eyes on Christ.

When we try to make our spouse the center of our world, things get out of balance. But when we prioritize our relationship with God, everything else—including our marriages—falls into its rightful place.

Encouragement for Those Struggling: Finding Strength in God’s Love

And finally, for those feeling discouraged—whether it’s low intimacy, unmet expectations, or loneliness—Nathan left us with this powerful reminder:

Our ultimate satisfaction must be in Christ.

Marriage is a gift. But it was never meant to replace our deepest need—to be fulfilled in God’s love.

If you’re struggling right now, know this: God sees you. He loves you. And He is the one who fills the deepest places of your heart.

Thank you again, Nathan, for this incredible conversation, for your joy in the Lord, and the deep, valuable insights you’ve shared with us! This conversation was truly such a gift.

And to you, dear listener and dear reader- may this conversation bless you, inspire you, and remind you of how deeply the Lord loves you.

Blessings,

Belah & Team

PS – Want to hear more from Nathan? Check out his podcast, Together Out Loud, and the Thinking Out Loud Together website for more.

PPS – If the idea of a marriage that impacts generations seems like a far off dream, or the thought of your private life being revealed in public brings shame and hopelessness, we want you to know… there is hope. We would love to talk with you. Give us a call at delightym.com/cc.

PPPS – Here is a quote from a recent graduate:
“We were planning on how to keep a family together while breaking our family up – We were at the end of ourselves and decided it was time to give up and go our separate ways… I have grown in patience, perspective, my faith and connection with God, my understanding of my husband, and peace. I have learned how to build my marriage. Building it is now a journey and no longer an intense, overwhelming mission impossible.”

Episode Transcript:

Belah Rose 00:02

Belah, welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. You’re joining me. Bela rose, as I dive deep into the beauty, power and truths about intimacy, learn not only the practicals, but the heart behind what making love is all about. Delight your marriage. Hi, there. I am thrilled that you are joining me today. Today, I actually got pretty starstruck starting out this episode, because Nathan Rittenhouse is actually somebody that I followed for at least one to two years, I think, on their podcast, thinking out so, so Nathan and his buddy Cameron, chit chat back and forth. And honestly, I love talking. Well, I love talking to Nathan, but I love listening to their their podcast, and it really blesses me every time, and it clarifies my thoughts and and so, yeah, so I highly recommend tuning into that, but Nathan and I talk about marriage and the the the value of intimacy and the we talked about humility integrity. We talked about habits and enjoying the the world that God created as an act of worship and also an act of experiencing God’s love and the putting the value of intimacy in the right sphere in your life. And there’s just so many aspects of this conversation that I’m excited to bring it to you. And yeah, just just enjoy if we can help you. You know, we also talk about the value of male relationships and friendships, and I just invite you to go to the light ym.com/cc, if you’re interested in some of our programs that does have a lot of male friendships that are created there because they really are seeking to pursue Jesus, and a byproduct is an awesome marriage as one of the many gifts, but that’s also what Nathan and I talk About so excited to share. Let’s get into it. You.

Nathan Rittenhouse 02:25

All right, wonderful.

Belah Rose 02:26

Well, I’m super excited because I’ve got Nathan Rittenhouse here, who is really it’s just an honor to be chatting with you because I have listened to Nathan and Cameron on the Thinking Out Loud podcast for at least a couple of years, I’m pretty sure. So delight your marriage. Listener, I am thrilled to introduce you to Nathan. And Nathan, would you mind just introducing yourself and getting us a bit acquainted with you?

Nathan Rittenhouse 02:53

Sure? First of all, it’s a delight to have this opportunity to chat with you in this format. That’s super fun. I sometimes introduce people as one of the happiest people that I know, and we’ll get into some of the philosophy and stuff later, but it is important, I think, that you know that I love life and generally try to approach it with a grin in my soul and a skip in my step. So there’s that grew up in a Christian household in the mountains of West Virginia, double majored in physics and philosophy in college, got my physics and metaphysics tangled up that turned into theology, studied theology in a couple institutions, worked for large Christian apologetics organizations, and now have co founded and operate a Christian ministry focused on apologetics and discipleship, called Thinking out loud together. And so it’s a delight to be able to speak on a variety of issues, really focusing on the concept of Christian hope, but then doing a lot of speaking, churches, retreats, colleges, universities, that type of work. And so that’s my kind of day job. Married to my wife, Erin, we’ve been married 15 years, and we have four children, ages 1210, eight and five. So we’re in the thick of that. We enjoy our local church leadership opportunities. There wonderful Christian community, and then a whole wide, wild variety of outdoor hobbies and other things that we get into in the evenings after work. So coming from a place of excitement about the future, about what God is up to, of being wide eyed and realistic about things that are bad, evil, dangerous and worrisome in the world. But in spite of that, not being naive, but recognizing who’s in charge of the world, and then trying to discern what my responsibilities are, as a result of that being the the kind of the starting point for how I like to begin my day and have that manifest itself in my life. So really, not a not an expert of anything, but love thinking about how if Jesus is Lord of everything, then there isn’t anything that we can’t start with, and bring that back into an edifying conversation about our faith. And so maybe I’m plagued by an extra dose of curiosity, but it’s a fun way to live. Yeah. Oh,

Belah Rose 05:00

that’s fantastic. Nathan. And as a I had a philosophy was my undergraduate, and I really loved, yeah, and which is, I got out of school, and I was like, so anyone want to pay me to think? Because I’m ready, I’m ready, but you, yeah, you pursued it further. And yes, that is exactly what you do. But yeah, no, I love, I love, also that you, you talked about being grown up in a Christian home, but I know a little bit more of that. Could you go back a little bit more of your heritage and your history? Because I think it’s fascinating. Yeah.

Nathan Rittenhouse 05:35

So there’s one of the things that, as I was reflecting and preparing to have this conversation with you around marriage and sexuality and relationship is that I was given an incredible blessing of having almost no relationship drama in my life, nor in my so I can rattle off the last 12 generations of my family in most directions of people who have just live kind of steady, faithful Christian lives happily married to each other, as far as I know. And so the the historical impact, I think, might be one of the things that we don’t think about with our marriages and our sexuality, is that it’s not private, that it impacts. So, I mean, I can, you know, crank off 330 years of my genealogy of men and women who, at some point were like, we’re going to live our lives, follow Christ this, and then here, you know, we are, decades, centuries later. Could be talking about it, but to think of that, I think as a couple, if you’re listening to this of thinking, What will my descendants 200 years from now say about the type of life I lived, and what I modeled in the way that I approached God, that I approached people, that I approached the world, and the relationships in between that. And so I think I would love it just for people to be able to take that as a inspiration, to dream big and to think long term and to think broadly about what it is that our relationships mean. So obviously there’s the fun, the joy, the delight, the challenges and the wrestles of the relationship that you’re in. But if you can think about the amplified impact that that has on the world around you, and then in future generations, that’s really something special to recognize. That’s how God made the world. Yeah,

Belah Rose 07:19

absolutely. Do you find that there’s a lot of times there’s almost this, you know, Jesus is coming back and he is coming back, but it almost is very easy to think, well, he might be coming back here in 20 years. And so, you know, it’s it ends with me rather than thinking, 200 400 600 Yeah,

Nathan Rittenhouse 07:37

well, and that’s right. So I have a little plaque that was in my my wife’s grandparents house, and when they moved to the nursing home, I took the plaque, and it’s a little picture of an angel, and it says, perhaps today, and that is a biblical thing, right, of being ready. But also, I think that if we’re thinking about our lived experience and so, so how would I treat my wife differently if I thought the Lord was returning tomorrow should not be any different than how I would treat my wife if I think the Lord isn’t coming back for 200 years. And so there’s, there’s a sense that I think that in our relational Well, in all of our ethics, is that the timeline is a little bit irrelevant to the degree that God had, God would have the same Ask of me in my life today, either way. And so I think I dream and plan and think it’s fun to think 200 years down the road, and if the Lord returns tomorrow, I’ll be totally thrilled to be wrong about that. But if he doesn’t, then what did we do with the last 200 years? Because people have thought that the Lord is coming back. My grandma would use to say, oh, you know, don’t, don’t do your homework. Jesus is probably coming back tomorrow. And I’m glad I didn’t listen to that and that I did do my homework, and that turned out to be better for me as a student. And so I think there’s a healthy balance there of living in the reality that the Lord can do what he wants when he wants, but that that doesn’t give me an excuse for not doing what I know he does want me to do today. Yes,

Belah Rose 09:06

yes, amen. Um, okay, so you said earlier sexual. Your sexuality is not private. And I’m just curious if you could expound on that well,

Nathan Rittenhouse 09:16

because, well, you know, if you look at this biblically, it gets really tricky, because the Bible almost, and I say almost here, but it’s pretty most of the time. It sees sex, marriage and reproduction, all is the same thing, and that’s a little confusing to us, because we’ve now separated those three things into three totally. They don’t even need to touch each other categories. And so the fact that the biblical narratives are around man, woman, children, embedded in a culture, embedded in a style of worship. And then you had the family dynamics. You had land that was passed through people’s ancestors. I mean, go look at the book of Numbers or Chronicles or something in the list. Of the genealogies and who your family was, and what you had rights to and access to, who you choose to reproduce with, and what your children do and where you live, and what I mean, you can’t get around it. And so there is a very intimate act, obviously, to being married, but it changes and forms everybody around you at the same time. So I don’t that’s not earth shattering news, but it’s something that I think we have to be reminded of from time to time. Yeah,

Belah Rose 10:29

well, I mean, even you know, you and I were talking about pornography before we started, because I think that’s often assumed to be private. But this is, this is just, you know, it’s almost like smoking. It’s, it’s not, it’s not a big deal. It only kind of damages the person doing it, and it probably doesn’t damage them, really. It’s all in the head. It doesn’t really make a difference. And I’m just curious. You know, we are speaking to Christians So, God willing, they’re, they’re using their Bible consistently. So they know that’s not actually the way we think as Christians. But I think there’s even a like, that’s not Jesus ethic. But, yeah, let me, let me invite you to expound on that a little bit more

Nathan Rittenhouse 11:10

well. So it’s interesting, though, in a lot of our secular ethics, we think about, Does this hurt anybody else? And that’s a very utilitarian approach to it. Jesus’s ethics are not utilitarian. They’re basically what we call virtue ethics, of what does this do to me, and what type of person do I become by continuing to gage in this pattern, in this behavior? And so the idea through the spiritual disciplines and through all the previous church writings about habitus and the habits that we form and the way that that shapes our character, that’s not even biblical. You can put that clear back into the Greek philosophers. We know this to be true. And then we look at how much time Jesus talks about the Father seeing what is done in secret and rewarding us for that, where really God is interested in our character in private, and sees that as the truest expression of who it is, that we’re, that we actually are. Oh

Belah Rose 12:00

my gosh. Could you say it again? Sorry. Say that one more time. You don’t remember what it was. I don’t remember

Nathan Rittenhouse 12:06

what I said. I was thinking about the next sentence already, but I was saying what? Basically that what’s done in in private. It seems that Jesus indicates that that is the truest sense of who we are, that your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you so you don’t have to, you know, stand in the public square and pray loudly. You don’t have to make a big deal about who you’re giving money to or what you’re giving money to. You don’t have to virtue signal, basically, because, you know, the people who receive that kind of recognition, it says, will receive their reward in this life, but your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you in eternity. And so the the idea of the goal of our lives is to be conformed to the image of Christ. We get that from Romans eight, and then we have a father who rewards what is done in secret. It just totally flips the script of saying what you what you’re doing. You are doing to somebody. It’s to yourself, and you’re either doing it unto the Lord or unto yourself, and the difference there has cataclysmic, destructive or beautifully foundational and formational consequences to it. So yeah, I think it’s a good question, because it just kind of pops the bubble of this idea that what we do in private doesn’t matter because nobody else is hurt.

Belah Rose 13:22

Yeah, Amen, that’s so good. It’s so good, and it helps us to really realize that, again, like you said, the truest, almost like that, the truest part of who we are is what happens in private, what happens in secret. That is, that is more of who my father looks at than anything else. But we got

Nathan Rittenhouse 13:42

to be careful with this, because even in the Christian world, you’ll hear things like, you better practice what you preach. Yeah, fair enough statement, but it would be better just to preach what you practice. So, so it’s not like my behavior needs to follow what I’m claiming it should be in public. Why don’t I just say in public, what my behavior? You see, there’s there’s a it’s the same words, but there’s kind of a big difference there of saying, Is my integrity able to express itself, and is that what people know of me, or am I pitching a standard of myself that even I don’t live up to, which I think is part of the problem with a lot of our social media and kind of crafting an image of ourselves digitally for other people to fall in love with that we ourselves know isn’t really us, and then that just leads to loneliness. But yeah,

Belah Rose 14:28

hey, can I? Can I speak to that part? Preach what you practice. I love that. And you also said, integrity? Is it able to express itself? I some people that I respect the most talk about themselves very little and but I also know that I would love to talk I would, to some degree, I would really love for them to talk more about themselves so I can learn more about how to be more like them.

Nathan Rittenhouse 14:58

So this is this, I think if you allow me. Interrupt you a huge issue. Yes, so let’s back this up to say early 2000s and you’re, you’re at the Christian youth camp and off. And authenticity is, is the is the name of the game in the day. And so what does that look like? So you got a bunch of, you know, teenage boys, and then you get the youth leader to come in, and the youth leader is going to be authentic, and so he’s going to talk about, like, well, I struggle with this, just like you and I wrestle with this, and my life is messed up in the same categories as yours, and that’s authentic. And that was really celebrated, which I think honesty is good, but what was lacking in some of those conversations was authenticity and holiness. Yeah, and so the goal, like authenticity, for the sake of authenticity, is not necessarily spiritually formational. I think the other side of that is, is you do have and there are people like that in my life that I kind of long for, like, Would you please tell me more, who very much sense that whatever good you see in them is the work of God, and it’s nothing but the grace of God that they ended up and so there’s very much, I think, a proper humility to say, look, all good things are from God. And if I’ve received these blessings in life, and this has been shaped and formed in me, praise be to God. And we don’t have a good culture right now, I think within American evangelicalism of what does it mean to be humble but speak the truth and also recognize that, you know, there, but the grace of God go I and so there’s, there’s that hesitancy to speak about. Here are things that I’ve done that have really worked well, or things that God has done in me. And here are practices that have been helpful to me because of that desire, I think, not to, not to take credit for the good that God has produced in our lives. Yes, I’m not answering the question. I’m just making no like so your

Belah Rose 16:49

prescription is what Nathan tell me,

Nathan Rittenhouse 16:54

yeah. So I think the the prescription is, is there? There is such a thing as false humility. And so I think there will have to be a point in time in which there are people who can be very honest about what God has done in their lives, and then be confident to talk about that in such a way that it’s a blessing to other people. And the reason that, if you’re one of those people, and you’re listening to this, the reason that it’s really important, is that, you know, for forever, it was deemed impossible to run a mile in less than four minutes. And so this was the big thing. Nobody knew what would happen. Could the human body actually do it? Would your heart explode? And then, as soon as Roger Banister did it in 1953 within like the next two years, eight people did it. And so it needed to be shown that it could be done in order for other people to aspire to it. And so I think there is a dearth of people who have healthy relationships, having the proper platforms and opportunities, not in an arrogant way, not in a haughty way, not claiming perfection. To say, here are some of the things that we’ve done that have really been a blessing, and we thank the Lord for enabling us that do this in our lives to kind of set that standard of what’s possible in order for other people to even try Exactly. And so I’ve, I’ve benefited from that in my life. Well, I can give you an example. I, you know. So I said, you know, my wife and I’ve been married 15 years, and it’s helpful to contextualize that, because essentially, we’re kind of coming to the end of the first quarter, as it were, we spend a lot of time. If you’re part of a church, hopefully it’s multi generational. We spend a lot of time with people who’ve been married more than 60 years. So 15 is a quarter of that. So if you like, think of this as a basketball game or something. We’re in the first quarter. And so a lot can change. A lot can happen, but it’s a different situation when you’re regularly spending time with other people that make you think, Hey, we’re 15 years down 47 to go or 48 to go. It changes the timeline, and then it also changes some of the commitments and expectations that you

Belah Rose 18:54

have. Yeah, no, I really love that. And I love the idea that it really it comes down to our our role models. Who did we who did we watch growing up? What? What habits did they have? Like you said, I mean, you’ve got generations of positive role models that you’ve seen and and you said, No relational drama that feels impossible, that feels like heaven, yeah. Well,

Nathan Rittenhouse 19:17

I’m not, I’m not saying that aren’t humans involved in this, but I as a child, never, it never even crossed my mind that my parents or my grandparents or the people that I love the most would ever get divorced, like it just wasn’t even a category in my mind. And then, obviously, you know, you grow up and go to college and you recognize, oh, you lived in a little bubble. But sometimes people were like, well, you know, you grew up in the church, and you’re so sheltered. I was thrilled to be sheltered in that way like that. That did not hurt me one bit at all. And also, I wasn’t sheltered in all the other categories. But you went to public school. I think I went to public school. Yeah, I wrote on the back of the bus the Yeah, so the. Yeah, it is, I mean, but the thing of it is, is that the Bible does give us an expected by the time you get to the New Testament. Anyway, so, but let me say this, because the New Testament sets a very high standard for human relationships. But I can’t think of a single great marriage in the Old Testament. I mean, so, if so, if you’re, if you’re a wife, listening to this, think of the guy in the Old Testament that you would have liked to have been married to. They were all, I don’t know what the slang word for it is now, but like pieces of work. And so you see God working deeply in some weird relationships and promising wonderful things to people who made horrible sexual choices. And so we definitely don’t want to fall in the trap of saying like, Well, unless you you know your parents got it right, you’re messed over forever. That’s absolutely not the biblical story of how this works. So, right? So there’s this balance of like, brokenness is not an excuse for future health or for teaching good things, but also there is the possibility for a man to love a woman for life and to raise children together and be part of the community and build good things and watch good things grow. That expectation is there and is possible. And wouldn’t

Belah Rose 21:16

it be so cool for anyone listening for you to make the choices and the changes and have the habits and learn the skills and die to yourself and love your spouse so much so that your next generation, the next generation, the next generation, ends up being able to look back and say, I don’t even know about the relational drama in because I don’t know if there were any.

Speaker 3 21:37

Yeah, yeah. Well, so I mean, but here’s the here’s an application that is, I routinely try to thank my father in law and say, Thank you so much for the way that you raised there. And who’s my wife, because it just makes things so much easier for me. And I hope the same is true from my wife’s perspective, to my mother, to my mother, you know, of like, if you do have elements of that in your life, I think it is very important that we point that out and we thank people for, like, the gift of having a wife who trusts men. Yeah. I mean, that’s and so can you do that for your children?

Belah Rose 22:16

Phenomenal gift. Yeah, absolutely. And it comes back to, as you mentioned, the the integrity and secret, doing the private and so what would you say for even just seeing your parents having a great marriage? If you could give some of the tips that you were just like, This is what I noticed they did consistently. These are some habits that they did. I would love to just hear what you’re Yes. So

Speaker 3 22:41

I think the first one is, is that their primary focus was on the church and on the Lord, and that’s a good reminder in any kind of relationship that unity can’t be the goal. Unity is always the byproduct of a common identity, and we live in a culture that, by and large, wants shortcuts to the byproducts, yeah, but wants to skip the goal, and so, yeah, I think I I knew that they had the same ambitions and agendas in life, and that they weren’t focused on and that primarily wasn’t each other, and it also wasn’t us as kids. And I know that sounds weird to say, but there was a phenomenal amount of security that my brothers and I grew up with in a deep understanding of my parents love that was downstream from their commitment to Christ, Amen and so that, I think is one of the first things that I saw is, I mean, they loved us, played with us, wrestled with us, kissed us and prayed with us and tucked us in at bed at night like deeply loving, very tactile, wrestle you down, rub your head, pick you up, you know, kiss you kind of like very tactile parenting, but they were focused on something bigger than themselves and something and on something bigger than each other. And I think that’s that’s healthy. My dad was performing a wedding one time as the minister, and he, he said a sentence that, like, cracked the whole crowd up. He’s like, Look. He’s like, basically, if you only look at each other, you’re just going to end up on top of one another, which, you know, in the context of a wedding ceremony, sent everybody in the fits of laughter. But what he the the broader point there was, so everybody giggle and move on, right? But the broader point was that is that you will annoy each other if the other person is the sole focus of your ambition, adoration and attention, and you’re you really can only get so close to each other, if that’s true. So I think that’s the first one, having a sense of unity, direction and purpose and vision that’s bigger than that, never criticizing or critical of each other in public. And so that’s not to say that they didn’t disagree, but it was always respectful. There wasn’t any yelling and door slamming and silent treatment and sleeping on the separate it was very civil in the disagreements, and none of that was ever hashed out in public. Nobody was ever embarrassed or shamed in any way in that format. And then I think just Yeah, can

Belah Rose 24:59

I. But I think it’s so interesting, because that’s such a biblical way of interacting. Like there’s so many lists of the sins and the New Testament, and quarreling is in there very often, next to murder. Think of Romans one. It’s crazy, and yet we just have this, even in the church. Oh, fights are normal, don’t, you know, just, just fight better, like you can fight just, you know, don’t bring up the past or it’s just like, what are we talking about? That is not a biblical way of handling any relationship, much less your spouse, and even thinking about your spouse as a brother or a sister in Christ. Like, yes, sure, this is a co error,

Speaker 3 25:35

yes, and not letting the volcano build up and then blow up and then destroy everything around it. I think having the the I think it all really comes down to communication skills, doesn’t it? And being honest and being able to say, Hey, you said this. Did you mean that I was hurt by you know? And just being pulling the weeds when they just germinate, not after they grow deep roots, is an important part of that. And then I think another, just one more thing while we’re making this quick list, that I appreciated is that my dad always backed up my mom and anything that she said to her sons, and so we were never able to separate like, I don’t even know if I had, I think there was, there was a point when I was my brothers and I were teenagers, and mom said something, and we were a little bit like, eh. And dad stepped into the kitchen. He’s like, Hey, what’s going on here? And mom said, the boys are having a little bit of trouble getting with something that I asked them to do. And I don’t remember exactly what happened or the full speech, but I do remember it ending with him saying, and if she asked you to muck out the barn with a teaspoon, you would do it, because she’s your mother, and so like my mom had the like the the full enforcer weight of my dad behind every word that she said. And I think that was a special gift that you can give your wife, but it was also an odd way comforting to us boys, of knowing that they were on the same page, and maybe he even disagreed with her sometimes, but it was just like, more important that they be seen as a unified front. And so I think those were, those are three that pop into my mind. I should do a better job of thinking through that sometime. No,

Belah Rose 27:11

I love it well. And I’m curious, did your mom back up? Your dad? Do you remember?

Speaker 3 27:15

Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, so coming from all boys, it was a little easier for us to immediately get on board with whatever dad said. Probably, really, I think. So, yeah, no, we so we had, we had great relationships with our parents. Yeah, there wasn’t any real, yeah, I don’t know. I think they explained why they were asking things of us, and there was a reason for what they were wanting to have happen, and we felt like we were part of the family and that we were contributing. And so when we were asked to do something, it wasn’t because they were like being mean and maniacal and wanted to squash our fun. They gave us huge amounts of freedom that often involved fire and knives and other things that looking back when it might not have been safe, but, but no, I think by and large, like we had a vision and understanding of, like, what are fans? Of, like, what our family was about, what we were trying to do, and we were invited to participate in that. And so, yeah, we didn’t have those rebellious phases in the same way that some of our friends did. Oh,

Belah Rose 28:13

and how many? How many boys, just three of us, okay, and and your dad, what was so he was a pastor?

Speaker 3 28:21

Well, so no, so it’s interesting, yeah, so my dad was a fifth grade school teacher, but also pastored three churches. And so it was a bi vocational, like pastor the church on the weekends kind of thing, which meant that I got to see a whole lot of relational drama and marital counseling that happened in our living room when people would come. And so I yeah, I got to see behind the curtain on a lot of things, but, um, yeah. So, so our church still functions on the BI vocational model. So I I travel and preach and teach and podcast and write and all of that, but then I’m also part of a leadership team in our local church, so there are five of us that rotate through preaching responsibilities.

Belah Rose 28:59

Okay, wow. No, that’s really fascinating. Um, and let’s see, I’ve got so many good questions. Um, okay, so the church, here’s what happens sometimes, is I love that you said byproduct, because that is so often what we talked about, delight, marriage. It really is being a follower of Jesus, discipling as unto the Lord, being a disciple of Jesus. And then the byproduct can often be this amazing marriage, learning specific skills. You talked about communication skills. Those are important things, but the focus really has to be pursuing Jesus. But I’m curious. I’ve also been around plenty of difficult marriages, where the church is really their focus and is almost lopsided in that way, yeah,

Speaker 3 29:49

well, and that’s a huge form of resentment for a lot of young people too, like my parents cared more about and they were committed to. Yeah, I guess the, I guess the thing that was. Different for me is that I didn’t feel like the church took time away from us, and so that’s and I really felt like the work that I saw my parents doing was really, like, they really prioritized coming to our athletic events and all of that they were, they were really, really with us a lot. And I mean, my dad was a school teacher, so we had the summers off. We got into all kinds of adventures, you know. So I spent a lot of time with my dad, and I think that that probably mitigated some of the hard but, I mean, the other thing is, like, okay, Dad’s out late at night helping some woman whose husband’s drunk and he’s providing, like, Okay, are you mad because he wasn’t there to talk to you in at night. No. You’re like, Go, dad. Like, yeah. So, so I think there’s a sense of, like, we could see the tangible outworkings of that kind of, because my, I mean, my my parents kind of had this idea too, that when I was one of the seminaries I was at, I called my dad, I was like, you know, I’m doing a lot of studying, but it doesn’t feel like I’m really getting much done. And dad’s like, it’s fine, Nathan, he’s like, the disciples took three years to train with Jesus and still had time to get killed for their faith. And I was like, Oh yeah, thanks, dad. And so I think they really thought, like, we’re raising sons who we want to see engage the world for the kingdom of Christ well, and that will be difficult for them, but the fact that they were modeling that themselves kind of felt like we were on the JV team of the varsity team through that. And so we were, we were there to do the same kind of thing, but learn as we went. And so yeah, it we just never sensed that tension between I don’t know, I don’t, so I hadn’t really thought of that before either. So appreciate the counseling here, put it on my tab.

Belah Rose 31:44

No, that’s wonderful. Well, I’m curious also with you know, we talked a little bit about the the many and you you’ve mentioned it many adventures and many things that you spend your time with, and what you make sure your your kids are exposed to. Or how do you think about Non, non work activities and the value of it. Let’s start there.

Speaker 3 32:07

Okay, so one of the things that might be helpful is that at the ripe old age of 38 I grew up before the internet, and so it’s a diff it was a different world. I mean, this sounds crazy, I rode my bike to a library to apply to college online. And so my childhood was like, Yeah, you’re gonna learn to ride a unicycle and juggle and stand on your head and weld your bicycles together and what like, because there wasn’t really anything else, like you can ride a cow with a stick and an apple, like, I mean. So it was just a sense of, go outside and do something and learn how the world works. Yeah, and I ran across, I don’t forget who said, it’s such a great quote that said, by and large, mothers keep their kids alive, and fathers teach their kids how to engage with the world around them. And that, I think, was really true. Also interestingly, like looking back on it, my mom said that she was far more worried about our intellectual safety than our physical safety. And so we, I mean, we had, like, get home from school, grab a hatch in a backpack, and some matches, and we’re going to go live in the woods. And mom like, Yeah, I knew you’d come back because you’d get hungry, you know. So it was, there’s a sense of of great just play and exploration and delight. I had grandparents who are deep readers and love to explore and to travel and to play games and to think. And it was kind of like, hey, there’s a neat bug under every rock. Go find it. And so I think having that as a childhood the delight of learning, which I think has to please God as a form of worship. I think it’s one of his communicable attributes that he gives us the desire to learn and to discover and to know or or the creativity as a communicable attribute. But he like, if you have kids, one of my favorite things in life is to teach one of my kids how to do something that I know how to do. Why would God not be thrilled when you learn the name of a spider, or understand how the moon phases work better, or pick up a new hobby or a way to engage the world, yeah. And so I think it’s an act of work. So I think it’s an act of worship. Is the short answer is that worship is our natural, natural response to beauty. And anytime you say, Whoa, awesome, that’s neat. And you give glory to God for it you’re worshiping,

Belah Rose 34:27

yeah? Well, it connects, I think, to what you said in the beginning of you’re the happiest person you know.

Speaker 3 34:36

And that’s that’s not to say that there aren’t struggles. I think one thing, if I look historically back across my family, it hasn’t been extremely financially stable, and so finances were never part of the stability. Wasn’t any multi generational wealth. In fact, it was a lot of generations of burn the candle at both ends for the sake of the church, I think, for the last four. Generations, my family has said something to their kids going off to college, like, I wish I had some money to give you, but at least I taught you where it comes from. And so I would, I would, that would be one thing that I would throw in there that I think is a secular falsehood, that you have to be loaded in order to have a lot of fun as a family. And that’s that’s just not true. And so there, if you can, if you can learn to grow and produce your own entertainment as a family and not need to import that, that’s a healthy thing.

Belah Rose 35:29

You know, that’s really interesting. And I’m so glad you mentioned that, because it’s so true even, even when you are on a budget, if you’re, if you’re on like, a really strict budget, it actually helps you be more creative. You have to. Isn’t feel like my dad said once, like, I don’t know if it’s constraints is the mother of creativity or

Speaker 3 35:46

something like that, okay, yeah, or necessity is the mother of invention. Sometimes, there it is. That sounds right,

Belah Rose 35:53

but, yeah, I think that’s really, really, I mean, insanely true. But I would say, you said, this is something I’m just curious about. I don’t know when I heard it, but something around at this point in history, we expect entertainment like, if you put a pie chart of our 168 hours in the week, our entertainment sliver is far bigger than it was, you know, dozens of years, maybe hundreds of years past. Sometimes I have that question in my head of, am I? Am I looking to be entertained more than I should be, even if it’s good entertainment, like you’re saying, some of these like fun adventures. And I’m just curious if you have thoughts on that.

Speaker 3 36:38

So I think so. I think we’ve over used the word edutainment, right where it’s like, it’s educational, but it’s it’s entertainment, and education morphed into one thing. I think we’ve overdone it in the digital space, but I think we’ve under done it in the physical space. And so learning about how the physical world works is a I mean that, but this weirdly, might be connected to sexual intimacy. Let me, let me make this case. I’m just making this up as I go here because I think, because I think there, I think there is a sense in which, and there’s a big shift happening right now, which, by and large, the evangelical church in America didn’t know what to do with physical things in general, and so being comfortable with your body, obviously, is, you know, a huge hurdle in for a lot of people, because there are certain strains of theology that doesn’t look at the physical world as if God created and said it’s very good. And now I’m not denying the fall in that, and I understand the brokenness and the importance of sin and all of that, but God’s intent is that physical stuff is good. And so I think if you’re if you’re doing something that helps you explore the physical world, and you’re giving praise to your Creator for the way that he made it, is it? Is it entertainment? Or is it worship, or is it education, or is it discovery? Is it? And so I think there’s a link there that understanding and being comfortable with the physical is a good spiritual discipline. Sounds like an oxymoron when I say being comfortable with the physical world is a good spiritual discipline. But the Bible doesn’t make those distinctions. That’s That’s a Greek philosophy distinction. We’re meant to be if you’re, if you’re all physical. I mean, you have the from the animal to the angelic, and if you separate it out, like if you have, if you have a physical body but no spirit, we call that a zombie. And if you have a spirit but no body, we call that a ghost. Like both of those should creep you out, because a human is intended to be both like our spiritual and physical. We’re meant to be an integrated, a uniquely integrated creature in creation. And so, yeah, I just throw that out there and let people fill in the blanks of what all I think that could possibly mean. But don’t neglect God’s creation.

Belah Rose 38:59

Yeah, no, I really do love that. I think there’s a there’s definitely value on evaluating our life and just seeing how, what level of, how are we waiting different aspects and how are we, what are we seeing is more valuable than others. I think that there. So I coach a lot of men, right? So when I, when I think about men that you know, sexual intimacy, frequency is a huge sadness, very, very often in marriages and and I will say that there are some men that you know once a week is just horrific for them. I’m just the worst thing. And then I’ve worked with other men that 10 years has been obviously much harder, but, but they can still, they can still have a smile, they can still have a grace that you know they can they can work with hope. They can love their wife. And God willing, things will change as he continues to do what God wants him to do. But I’m just wondering. I have seen that the men that really are the most maybe resilient, even in the face of really low frequency in their marriage, are men that have a lot of aspects to their life. There’s a lot of variety in what they do. It’s not just work, punch the clock, come home, disappointed. No sex. It’s like there’s just so many different things to occupy their mind, even though that is the way men are, 80% of men, 20% of women, you know, very high drive. But, and I could clarify those percentages a little bit better, but that’s essentially the vast majority of men have a higher drive, vast minority of women. But I just find that to be very important. Is like big varieties of life activities to help people feel that sex is not the only thing that can fulfill you. It is an important thing, and it is God designed, but it is dependent on a second person. It’s dependent on your spouse. And so, yeah, I’m just curious if you have thoughts on that.

Speaker 3 41:13

Well, let’s, let’s start off by saying that the New Testament puts a very high premium on celibacy. And so that’s that’s something that I think as we, as we’re living in a time where we’re trying to sort out what are our actual sources of authority, we want to recognize, culturally speaking, that family is good. Jesus blessed it. That’s great, but there’s a whole lot in there about your value to the kingdom by living a sexually celibate life for the sake of Christ. And that’s been extolled and seen as a virtue, and I think overdone, certainly in certain strands of theology, that’s had consequences. But Jesus lived that Paul encouraged it. So let’s recognize that it is because, here’s the lie. This is the thing that you see speaking to college students. The whole bit, is that we live in a culture that tells us that to be fully human, you must be expressing yourself sexually. That’s the subtle advertising Hollywood messaging that that’s what it means to be fully human, is to express yourself sexually. And if you buy that, then you’re disregarding and discounting the role of Christ, who was the most fully human and perfect human who is also sexually celibate. So let’s not falsely equate that for something and so that I think plays back into having a bigger role and a bigger value in life, of what is the purpose of my life? What am I for? What am I about? Can can really be a very healthy, helpful thing. And so yeah, I’m, I don’t have much of the say to that, other than to agree with you that sitting around, I mean, narcissism is, you know, you’re kind of sitting there focused on yourself, and that’s not a great place to be sexually. And in fact, there’s kind of a counter intuitive nature of, you know, I was thinking about this, and maybe you can give me some insight. You know, what really annoys me as a genre of male sexual desire, country music. Like, have you listened to a country music song? Like, I can’t live without you, baby. You know, I’m nothing. I can’t stop thinking about you. I’m like, What a pathetic weasel. Like, I mean, so there’s a sense of, maybe I’m not articulating this right, but like, if you’re living as a man, as if the soul fulfillment of your life has to come from your sexual expression, I don’t know if that’s somebody that a woman wants to have sex with. Like, is there a

43:36

is it like you’re killing the thing by trying to over focus on the um, and so that’s, I throw that in there for the consideration of whoever that’s helpful for.

Belah Rose 43:46

No, no, I think it’s, I think it’s true. And I think it comes back to what is your life about? What is really the purpose? Is it is the purpose to get to heaven and and hear, Wow, you got your wife to make love to you three times a week. Well done. Is that really what we’re aiming for.

Speaker 3 44:03

That’s not it, yeah, but, but also, the thing of it is, I think you have to have some flexibility in baked into this too, like you, I don’t think you can put a number on it and say, Okay, this, you know, Tuesdays and Fridays, because, hey, look, my wife’s going to a women’s retreat. I’m taking the boys to the My daughter has a basketball game I’m going to speak at this conference like, and so you’re gonna have to be communicating. It’s going to ebb and maybe, hey, three times a week, sometimes, yeah, and maybe sometimes it’ll be two weeks before you’re even in the same place for an hour. So I think it’s like, if you overly focus, I know that my wife wouldn’t appreciate if she thought now she does appreciate knowing what my interests are, and I make them known. Good communication. There is helpful too. What are you doing tomorrow evening, after you know? And she was like, Oh, what are you talking about? As if she does. But anyway, you know. So, yeah, and so I. Think, you know that’s that’s just part of how it goes. But I think in the conversations that my wife and I have had about it, she is more romantically interested when we do things together and projects together and we’re working on something that isn’t, you know, spending a spending the evening in the garden together, probably will end up in other activities, like, because it’s like, we’re doing something together, and we’re outdoors and we’re touching the soil, and we’re listening to the birds and we’re enjoying talking as we’re doing it. And so the goal there is to grow food, but it often has other consequences. Yeah,

Belah Rose 45:32

there you go. So

Speaker 3 45:36

it’s just a vicious cycle of, like, over focusing on it kills it somehow. Um,

Belah Rose 45:42

yeah, no, I love that. And you know, may I ask you about the the high value of celibacy? Um, if somebody is not by choice, celibate in their marriage, um, I’m curious or, or even just low frequency. I’m curious if you have thoughts on how you know, because there’s ways that I would answer this question, but I’m curious your thoughts on, how would How would you advise somebody who’s just thinking, you know, but I got married because I didn’t want to burn with passion, but I know I’m married and I’m burning with passion like, yeah. What do you Yeah, I’m just curious if you have thoughts that,

Speaker 3 46:22

no, that’s, that’s tough. And so I, I can do, you know the Have you ever come across the book The Seven? Is it seven myths of singleness by Sam Albury? No. So Sam would say he’s, he’s same sex attracted but choosing to live a celibate life for the sake of the kingdom, I think does a lot of good writing around that, and is something and somebody who is interesting to to listen to. But in his in his book, this only tangentially speaks to this. So let me say this, and I’ll come back to your question. But he said that one of the things that we tend to do is that we take the the worst part of the relationship that we’re in, and we compare it to what we think the best part of an alternative relationship would be. So we don’t compare apples to apples. We take here’s my low, and I’m comparing it to the high of that other person’s relationship. We don’t take my low and compare it to the low of that other person’s relationship. And so there’s a sense in which, okay, hey, people who are in a happy heterosexual marriages, the wife should, at times, say no, and the husband needs to deal with that. That’s how that works. And so everybody is going to have to learn to say no and to deal with unfulfilled and unmet expectations and unfilled, unmet desires. I think there’s so much value to the repeated phrase in the Song of Songs, do not awaken love until it desires, because for the people who are celibate and have always been, it is way easier than for the people who haven’t been and then get put in a situation where they feel like they need to be. And so there’s, yeah, think about that as you do it. But then for the person who’s in, who’s in the marriage and in the situation, I think that is a a uniquely challenging thing, because it actually it isn’t just about the physical desire. It’s about being wanted and desired yourself and respected and cared for. And there’s like, I Okay, I understand how testosterone and oxytocin work and all that. Like, I get that, but there’s a huge emotional component of this for men as well. And so it isn’t just the physical, although that might express itself more clearly. And so I think the the I don’t know if rejection is too hard of a word there, but the heartache of that is not just physical. I would say the physical is a small part of that to deal with compared to the overall emotional part of that. I somebody very close to me, this is flipping around the other direction. Got married first year was really bad, and driving down the interstate, pulled over, actually on a beltway, and just sat there and sobbed because she realized that what she was doing is she was expecting her husband to be her God and to fill and meet all the desires that she had, and it obviously your husband or your wife is a terrible god or goddess run from that situation, but it’s also not fair to them, the expectations that you would put on them to emotionally and satisfy you in every way. And so I think that is like when we talk about Jesus being a man of sorrow, and there being a time in which nobody else on the face of the planet understood who he was and what he was up against, who all deserted Him in His time of greatest need of companionship, you’re praying and dealing with the Savior who understands that level of rejection intimately, and that’s worth knowing. So I think this is not a salute. It’s not an easy. Illusion. But it’s to say that your your needs and your longings are good and they are known, and if they are unmet, that does not devalue you in the in the eyes of God, that I think the temptation there would maybe to be take that out on yourself, or think there’s something wrong with you, or to compensate for that in some other way, which all lead into patterns that just make the situation worse. And so some of this will have to come back for Okay, let’s say that you’re a young couple, you’ve been married five years, and your spouse dies. Are you going to stop having sexual longings? Doubtful. And so this is it’s you’re asking a big question, and I’m kind of dancing around the edges of it, trying to grapple with hand holds for it, because I don’t know that there’s a clear cut thing here to them to say, This really does come back to my identity has to be in something bigger than my spouse. My deepest pleasure and satisfaction has to come from something more and and I have to lean into growing into that. To say I’ve learned to be content in all circumstances is a wild statement, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. And so recognizing that it is of God if you’re given that, and that it is possible, there are people who do it, it is not ideal. I think that might be part of it is recognized. Call it for what it is. When you see brokenness in the world, name it, but then don’t dwell on that as the core of your identity. And so I think probably there are, I think that would be a category that’d be really helpful to have some community counseling, some people you could talk to, not to help you dwell on it, but to help you keep your eyes up. And, I mean, it’s Paul again, weird, you know, keep your your eyes, you know, in heavenly places where, where crisis is, set your mind on things above. This idea of a call to something higher, which, which also, by the way, as we go by, I think is part of one of the things we can talk about, when talking about sexual ethics with non Christians, that we we often have this kind of like head butting motif. I believe this, and you believe the opposite, and then we lock horns over it. And what I try to do in so much of my campus ministry and outreach is to say, this is what I call the Christian taunt, is to say, Well, okay, that’s interesting, that you believe that. But what if? What if there’s such a thing as satisfaction and intimacy and commitment that transcends our sexuality. What if there’s more than just the physical relationship, and by and large, in the right context, in the right conversation, people are open to that they know, Sleeping Your Way to satisfaction doesn’t check all the boxes of what you’re really after in life, and so we as Christians have to make sure we’re playing with our full Christian deck of cards, which is to say, can I be satisfied in something other than the embrace of another human? And that’s going to be different. How that works out for every person? I think,

Belah Rose 52:54

I think there’s, there’s something about having so coming back to worshiping through discovering the name of the ant that’s crawling underneath the rock that you just picked up. I mean, there’s something about the many ways of encountering God and that love of my son and I, we go running in the mornings and the cold, cold mornings of New York City without sleeps and and the Sunrise was unbelievable. This morning. We just jogged in place watching this thing. It was unreal. And I just could not, just could not take your eyes off. It like this is God’s love. He’s just, he didn’t have to do that, you know? And even in the Bible, when it’s in Jesus is talking about, love your neighbors, be good to those who who persecute you. But he’s saying, Love your enemies. That’s what it is, sorry, love your enemies. And he says, This is what our God and Father does to us when he gives sunlight to the to the the evil and the good, yeah, the

53:59

righteous and the unrighteous, the rain falls on them all. Yeah,

Belah Rose 54:01

yes, but he’s talking specifically about the love that God has. So when we look at the sun, we can see that as God’s love. Yes, the other person next to you gets to enjoy it, but it’s out of love for us. And so just in thinking about sometimes it’s so, I don’t know if the word is 10 tenuous, maybe, of like, just, you know, leaning into God’s love, or what that means, but it’s real, like if God created it all, then you interacting with those things, is actually interacting with God’s love like you. He is loving you through this experience.

Speaker 3 54:33

Yeah, yeah. So a couple things there. And one of those, if you go on from where you’re just quoting from in Matthew five, and you look at verse 48 when it says, Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, it’s in reference to God’s love and the completeness of it. The tell us like the fulfillment of that and so that call is certainly there. Also just want to point out, if you’re listening to this and you’re hearing us talk about sunrises and ants, you could be a little bit like, what do they do? We’re not worshiping ants, and we’re not worshiping the sun. We’re giving praise to God for the thing that he has created. And. In the same way, I do not worship my wife. She is not my god. I love her and care for her deeply, but she’s not my God. And so I think our culture tends to make an idol out of the created things, and we can’t do that in our sexual lives, in our marriages, or whatever else it is, and do it well, that the whole love God love neighbor comes in a certain order, because you can’t love your neighbor, well, if you don’t love God first, and so that you can’t love your wife, well, if you don’t love God first, can’t love your husband. Well, if you don’t love God first. So there’s that we don’t worship the created. We don’t worship the physical, but we give God thanks for it, and we delight in the way that he’s made it most of the time.

Belah Rose 55:42

Yeah, no, I love that. I think it, I think it’s this, this, this question mark of like, well, how if I, if I have, you know, if I put my expectations on the ground so that I don’t get hurt by my spouse, because they’re never filling those expectations. And this is really a legitimate way of being loved that really is designed for marriage. But then it’s like, well, you are suffering. Jesus is the man of sorrows. Here’s the

Speaker 3 56:10

thing. I know a lot of people have had some really deeply impactful ministries that did not have perfect marriages. So let’s just, let’s just put that there. I don’t think it’s good. I don’t think it’s ideal, but again, I don’t want us to be acting like we’re espousing some kind of pie in the sky. Everything is has to be perfect, or, god, can’t use me, kind of thing. So loop back on. But that’s interesting, though,

Belah Rose 56:35

because what about the, what about the is it Second Timothy, where it talks about your elder of the church as your wife, so he knows how to Yeah, so right, of Christ, I

Speaker 3 56:45

think that’s a very important thing for for parsing out leadership, particularly in your local congregation. Yeah, I can’t get away from that. But so here’s the thing, God once used a donkey, okay, so that gives me a lot of hope, and so, so just because God can use the less than ideal situation does not mean that we glamorize less than ideal situations. So, so don’t use that as an excuse. Yeah, it seems like there’s a proper balance there in between those two things,

Belah Rose 57:19

yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So well, this is really good. So if you, if you were thinking about somebody listening, who is a gentleman who just needs flat out encouragement through all of this, what would you be able to share with him?

Speaker 3 57:36

Yeah, I think the usually, if I’m a little disappointed or despair a little bit, it’s because, to some degree, I’m overestimating my own importance in the situation. I’m putting too much on myself, and I’m not recognizing that this is my Father’s world. He runs it, and then I determine my list of responsibilities and actions as a byproduct of that. And so I think that’s the starting point for me, and I think for many other people, is I once jotted down. I need to have a revival service at least once a day, because I’m I’m prone toward the inward curl and the inward focus. Yeah, and I have to get up and have a time of worship to pry myself out of my ingrained narcissism, to say yeah, to worship the Lord and to ask for forgiveness and to be thankful and to make my request known, and to ask God to intercede on behalf of the things that I’m interested in. And so I I start there. So that’s an encouragement, part of that. The second thing is, and this is one that I lament. I don’t know if you ever speak about this, but the death of male friendship is so tragic, because, I mean, you’re like, alright, I already, already outed myself as a dinosaur, because I said I rode my bike to a library to apply to go to college, but I also, like showered in locker rooms with 15 other naked guys at the time, and slept in the same bed with a bunch of dudes on cross country trips, and like, had good male friends that I hugged and very physical, non sexual male friendship. And so I lament the fact that we’re living in a world that makes all relationships seems like they have to like only sexualized relationships can be real relationships, and that’s a lie also. And so I think if you’re a man who’s feeling lonely in this pursuing, I cried myself to sleep sometimes as a high school student because I lacked spiritual friendship and I and it’s not that wasn’t popular. I broke a school record in track. I was the class president for three years, valedictorian, all that stuff like so. So that was working, but I didn’t have anybody who was trying to walk to the beat of the Spirit like I was, and it was just painfully lonely. And so the external, Nathan was like, That dude’s got it going on. But internally, I’m like, I am missing good friendship. And that prayer wasn’t answered until I got to. College, and then found some one in particular just really great, yeah, Christian, Christian young man who’s a who’s a real lifeline to me through college and vice versa. And so I think pursuing male friendship as a man and female friendship as a woman, those are categories that a church can help with a Christian community, that being part of a club, or any kind of other thing that you could be, that I go back and forth on not referring to my wife as my friend, which I know sounds a little like, I never use the word partner, that one just weirds me out. Like, what are we doing? Starting a law firm or playing tennis here? No, that is not what we’re doing, but, but there’s a sense in which I want to reserve the category of wife and spouse as something more than friend, without denigrating what friend actually means, but then also having relational satisfaction with friends that my wife is not expected to fulfill all of my needs, which I think is hopefully a blessing to her as well as it is to me. And so that would be one of the other things that I would just say there is like, and I don’t know how to do that in everybody’s circumstance, but that’s a tragedy that we’re losing that culturally speaking,

Belah Rose 1:01:12

right, right? And it does take, it does take intentional effort to find it and seek it out and pursue it, because that’s not easy, especially if it’s not somebody that you grew up with since elementary school, and you’re just always friends. And that’s rare. That’s rare in it and it, yeah. I mean, we live in a city, and it’s, it’s intentional work to find community, find friendships that that will

Speaker 3 1:01:36

so basically, my answer is, I had to cheat and pray about it. Did you say cheat? Yeah, you know when all, when all your other good ideas don’t work out, you could resort to asking the creator of the universe. All right, Lord, I’m out. I mean, but that’s, that’s what our best prayers, that’s what our most genuine like, Yeah, our best questions in life are actually prayers. And our our best prayers come from. The point of us saying, I have run out of all possible options that I can think of. Please, Lord, would You intervene now why we’re hard headed and we have to, like, go through all of that junk before we get there. There’s a whole another theological discussion. But if you’re at that spot, yeah, could give it a try.

Belah Rose 1:02:19

I love it. I love it. And, you know, I think, honestly, I think the coolest thing that a wife listening will find out is they’re like, Wow, there’s an individual that thinks, like, Nathan, out in the world. I’m like, yes, there is. And some of the things you said still make it evident that intimacy is still important.

Speaker 3 1:02:41

Yeah. So, so how do you how do you like prioritize it without emphasizing it? I mean, those aren’t the right words, but there’s a sense in which, but so here, like again, I don’t know that I’m the best person to talk to. Like I said, we’re only 15 years into this. Who knows what like? I mean, our bodies still work the way that we would like them. To my wife, random half marathon. Like, you know, there’s, there’s that, like, life is working for us in our bodies. And like, watching people age and what marriage and intimacy means through all of that. Like, I don’t know, I haven’t been there yet. I’m I’m watching people. I’m talking to men older than me, listening to what they think about that. So there’s that going on. The other thing that I lament and so like, maybe this isn’t you in your life, but man, if there’s a way you could do this for your kids, is that my wife and I have a ton of fun being married, and nobody talked to us about physical intimacy. We came into this as total blank slates. But here’s the advantage of that, is that we have had 15 minutes of exploring and experimenting and figuring it out together, which was actually probably better in the long run than so if you think about that, that’s what people don’t have now, is you’re not coming into a marriage with a blank slate. And I like, I speak to college students, male and female, who are totally concerned about this, if I get married, the probability that they have a pornographic imagination about what’s going to happen here is that you’re, you’re bringing expectations into relationship, that you have to have some kind of education about what’s normal and what’s not. And so that’s why I’m saying. It’s a it’s a gift that our parents were able to give us, I think, in the way that they, how you want to use the phrase, cultivated their children to have a focus on certain things that we got to figure it out together as a couple. My dad uses, I think this is financially true. Often the illustration, I think of like when a baby chick is hatching, if you break the egg open, it always dies like if you help it, it dies like it has to go through the struggle of hatching to develop the muscles properly for breathing and living. And so I think there can be a sense in which that is a. Beautiful thing, if you can experience that with someone, and if you say, hey, you know, I missed that boat in my life. I recognize that that’s true, then what are the things that you can do to help encourage the younger people in your life? This? This is the one thing that drives me nuts, is like, you have somebody’s like, well, you know, I smoked a lot of weed, so I don’t really know if I can tell my kids not to. I’m like, No, that that qualifies you perfectly. Like, if you did something and you’re like, this had some consequences that I didn’t like when I was about to get married. There were two ladies that I worked with who had both been divorced shortly after they were married, and I talked their ears off about relationships, because I was like, hey, if there are people here who know anything, it’s these ladies. And so if there’s brokenness in your past, don’t hide that. Use what you’ve learned from that that gives you a better platform to speak into the lives of the young people around you, to encourage them to you know, if you step on a slippery spot, bummer, but it’s kind of irresponsible if you don’t tell the person behind you there’s a slick spot there. So you’re not disqualified if you’re if your life hasn’t turned out in these categories in the way that you want them to, from helping other people.

Belah Rose 1:06:04

I love that, Nathan, that’s so wonderful, awesome. Well, this has been so special and so fun, and I’ve wanted to talk to you forever, so I’m really excited, not forever, but at least since I started listening to you guys on thinking out loud, because here’s one thing, Listen, dear, delight your marriage. Listener, when Nathan and Cameron talk, they mean the exact word they say, and so you have to be very careful about the words you use, because it’s very smooth. I told my husband that I was like, I have to be so careful about my words, honey, will you pray? I didn’t ask him to pray, but I probably should have. Oh, and my last thought about your spouse being your your friend, or people say it has to be your best friend and I, I just think that’s a terrible expectation, like you said to put,

Speaker 3 1:06:43

Oh, good. I’m vindicated. An expert, expert has approved my words. Sleep well tonight. Sorry I interrupt you.

Belah Rose 1:06:51

I completely agree. No, because it just, it’s just like, oh my gosh, did I marry the wrong person? We’re so different. We’re just, we’re so different. And it’s like, yeah, you’re different. You got attracted to each other. Men and women are crazy different. What a great thing, right? You’re attracted to someone different. So no, this has been so special. Nathan, would you mind praying for somebody listening, husband or wife, that just would love your encouragement.

Speaker 3 1:07:14

Yeah, let’s do that. Okay, father, I give you thanks for the way that you designed the world for us to be in relationship with you, but we’re also well aware of the fact that you said is not good for us to be alone, that You created us for relationship with each other and for intimacy with each other. And I ask that you would help us keep our priorities straight, that we would recognize that our intimacy with each other is downstream from us receiving your love and understanding your character revealed to us in the person of Jesus Christ. And I thank You that You are God and that I’m not, because I feel so over my head on so many relationship questions and ethics and intimacy things. You’re the God who created all of this. Said that it is good and knows what we need, and you promised by your Spirit to be ever present with us and to guide us and to convict us and to teach us and to living lives that ultimately bring glory to you. And so I ask for those brothers and sisters who are listening and thinking along with us here, that you would give them a renewed sense of your presence, which is promised in their lives, and that they would rest deeply in the satisfaction of knowing that they’re loved by you, and then out of an overflow of having received that love, that they would be able to engage the world around them very well, and that they would love their spouses in a way that honors you, and that they would raise children and be involved in churches and local community hobbies and activities in a way in which the affection that they have for their spouse can be a faithful pointer to what you desire for your relationship with us through Christ In the church, and so help us see that our lives mean more, that our marriage means more, that our sex means more than just the gratification of our own desires, that it’s all part of the bigger plan of what it is that you have in store for each of every one of us. There’s no chance we have of pulling any of this off on our own. And so we plead for your help in the name of Jesus and by the power of your Holy Spirit, Amen,

Belah Rose 1:09:01

amen, amen. Thank you so much. Nathan, this was amazing. Oh, let me just ask you, where can our listeners connect with you? Can you give the website and anything else? Sure?

Speaker 3 1:09:11

Yeah, so thinking out loud together is the organization where we frequently think out loud about current events and Christian hope, T O L together.com. Stands for thinking out loud together. T O L together.com. Is our website, but you can find us on Spotify, Apple podcast, wherever you get your podcast. Unfortunately, there’s a very popular song called Thinking out loud, so you might have to stick like thinking out loud, written house or Nathan in there in order for us to be Ed Sheridan, but one of these days. So yeah, wherever you find your podcast, YouTube. QL together.com.

Belah Rose 1:09:41

Beautiful, awesome. It. It’s a, it’s a cool looking light bulb with a with a dark background. That’s when, you know, with

Speaker 3 1:09:49

the light bulb, yeah, little T, o, l, in the filament, if you look closely. So, oh, is that what it is? Yeah, very good.

Belah Rose 1:09:55

Alright. Nathan, well, thanks again. This was awesome. I appreciate you. Thank you. So much. Okay, amazing. Well, thanks, Nathan, this was wonderful and dear listener, I hope and pray that this has been encouraging for you, just like it’s been encouraging for me, and we’d love to help you delight. YM, com slash CC for a free clarity call, you can get all the information just going to that website. But May God bless you and encourage you on your journey in life, in marriage, in the many ways that God has designed you in this earth. All right, God, bless. Bye. You.