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The Truth About Female Desire: Interview With Dr. Juli Slattery

If you’re a wife who loves God and loves your husband, but you’re wondering…

• Why don’t I want sex?

• Why does my husband want it more than I do?

• Am I broken for not desiring intimacy?

…you’re in the right place.

We want to remind you that you are not broken. You’re not alone. And God isn’t disappointed in you.

In this conversation, we sit down with the incredible Dr. Juli Slattery—clinical psychologist, author of 14 books, and founder of Authentic Intimacy—to talk about real struggles Christian wives face around intimacy, low desire, and how to walk toward healing with God’s help.

What Causes Low Sex Drive in Christian Wives?

This is one of the most common issues I hear from women: “My husband wants it more. I feel bad. I don’t know why I don’t want it. Help.”

Dr. Slattery shares that many wives don’t have a lower drive—just a different kind. Men typically have what’s called an initiating drive, while women often have a responsive drive. That means she doesn’t feel desire until after closeness begins. That’s normal!

But sometimes, low desire is more complex. Some deeper causes may include:

• Past sexual trauma (even from within marriage)

• Body image issues and insecurity

• Pain during sex or hormonal changes (like menopause)

• A lack of emotional safety or unresolved conflict

• Shame from upbringing or purity culture

• Misunderstandings about what sex is really for

Often, it’s not one thing—it’s several.

That’s why this isn’t a quick fix. It’s a journey of healing and understanding. And most importantly—it’s not your fault.

What Does God Say About Sex in Marriage?

We often assume a great sex life just means “compatibility.” But as Juli beautifully shared: “Great sex isn’t about compatibility. It’s about growing in unselfish love.”

And that’s biblical.

God designed marriage and sexual intimacy to reflect His covenant love: faithful, intimate, sacrificial, and joy-filled. When we chase after that picture—His heart for sex—it brings healing, safety, and even delight.

Here are the 4 pillars of covenant sex that Juli teaches:

1. Faithfulness – Can your spouse trust you emotionally and physically?

2. Intimate Fellowship – Are you open with each other in heart and spirit?

3. Sacrificial Love – Are you serving each other instead of demanding?

4. Passionate Celebration – Is sex a space for joy and rejoicing?

“I Want to Want Sex… But I Don’t.” What Should I Do?

If that’s your heart cry, there’s hope. Juli and I walked through several gentle, practical steps to help you move forward:

1. Pray—Every Day

Invite God into this part of your life. Juli prayed for months before even telling her husband. God cares. He will meet you here.

2. Start with What You Do Want

Maybe you don’t want intercourse—but you’d like to cuddle. Or feel safe naked. Or be able to enjoy touch again. That’s a great start.

3. Change the Inner Narrative

Rather than thinking, “I have to,” begin gently rehearsing, “I want to enjoy closeness. I want to connect with the man I love.”

4. Use Physical Support

Tools like organic lubricants, non-intercourse intimacy, or vibrators (with agreement) can be helpful. Give yourself permission to explore.

5. Communicate with Your Husband

If he’s safe, loving, and kind—invite him into this healing journey with you. Let him support your heart, not just seek pleasure.

But Isn’t It Selfish to Focus So Much on Sex?

That’s a valid concern—especially for Christians. But here’s what Juli shared that really struck me: “God designed sex to bless both husband and wife. This isn’t just about serving him—it’s about your healing, too.”

Sex is not just physical. It’s emotional. Spiritual. It touches the most tender parts of our story.

If you’re avoiding it completely, it might be time to gently ask: What wounds need healing? What lies am I believing?

This is not about becoming a sex expert—it’s about becoming whole.

A Christian Wife’s Invitation to Intimacy

Whether you’ve been married 3 years or 30, God’s not done with this part of your journey.

Even if sex has been painful, shame-filled, or complicated… He can redeem it.

Even if you feel distant, numb, or uninterested… He can awaken new joy.

You’re not “less than.” You’re not “too late.” You’re not “too much.”

You’re beloved.
And intimacy can become a gift again.

Resources to Help You Begin

If today’s blog stirred something in you, we’d like to encourage you to take one step forward. God meets us there.

Listen in: Full Episode with Juli Slattery available here and on your favorite podcast streaming service
Explore: Juli’s Ministry – Authentic Intimacy
New Book (July 1): Surrendered Sexuality: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything

For more information on our Coaching Programs: DelightYourMarriage.com

Final Thoughts

You’re not alone.

God is in this with you.

Let Him lead. And let Him love you in this part of your story.

 

With love,

The DYM Team

 

PS – If you haven’t checked out Dr. Juli’s book yet, you can check it out here: God, Sex, and Your Marriage

PPS – For more information on our Coaching Programs, please visit our website. We would love to connect with you!

 

Transcript: 

Belah Rose 0:01
Belah, welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. You’re joining me, Bela rose as I dive deep into the beauty, power and truths about intimacy, learn not only the practicals, but the heart behind what making love is all about. Delight your marriage. What

Hi, there delight your marriage. Listener, I am thrilled that you are joining me with Julie Slattery, welcome

Juli Slattery 0:40
so good to be with you. Thanks for having me. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Belah Rose 0:45
You are a joy to talk with, and you have been on the podcast probably nine years ago,

Juli Slattery 0:52
a long time.

Belah Rose 0:56
It was back when we literally were using the phone to record.

Juli Slattery 1:00
Oh, my goodness, yeah. What’s a phone? I don’t want to

Belah Rose 1:06
so I’m super excited to have you back. And we just chatted not too long ago on Gary Thomas’s show. And yeah, I was just thrilled to have you back. So Julie, for those of you who don’t know you, would you be willing to introduce yourself to our audience? Sure,

Juli Slattery 1:23
let’s see. I’m just a girl from Ohio, so yeah, I run ministry called authentic intimacy, which we have been around for about 13 years now. And essentially, we are helping Christians navigate sex like helping them make sense of God and sexuality in whatever context that might be, whether it’s marriage or singleness or struggle. So that is what I get to do. And my husband, Mike and I have been married for about 30 years, three adult sons, and yeah, so that’s me, amazing,

Belah Rose 2:03
amazing. And amidst that you’ve written,

Juli Slattery 2:08
is it 20 books? How many books? No, not quite 20. I think I’m at maybe 14 now. So, yeah, 14.

Belah Rose 2:14
Pretty close. Are you gonna Are you gonna get to 20? What do you think?

Juli Slattery 2:19
I don’t know. I always feel like the book I just wrote is the last one. So yeah, yeah. And everybody has an idea for what my next book should be. They always come up and tell me you should write on next. So yeah, so we’ll see. Oh,

Belah Rose 2:35
that’s too funny, is it? Is it like every time it feels like giving birth again, like

Juli Slattery 2:39
it does? Yeah. And I just have, I made an agreement with the Lord a long time ago that I wasn’t going to write a book unless he really put it on my heart. So, so I always kind of write, write it, and then I’m done, and then I’m like, Okay, I’m done until there’s really a burden there to write something new. So, and one day there won’t be a burden to write something new, and that’ll be okay, yeah,

Belah Rose 3:06
well, my, my vote is after 20. So, okay, alright, really, okay. So, well, I was hoping that we could talk about, really, just speak to a woman who is struggling with a lower drive, yeah, I know their husbands will will want to listen into because it’s, it’s, you’re both, both people are involved in it. It makes a huge difference to one and then the other and and I’ll just start from, from my own journey, my I certainly have the lower drive and than my husband, and it’s been, you know, a wonderful piece of our of my life is, is learning and growing in that and, and walking in that and, and so I guess I would love to just hear, if you’re, you know, maybe Some of the top reasons that you think women struggle with with lower drives?

Juli Slattery 4:07
Yeah, I guess, to start with, how do you define a lower drive? You know, I think most women define it as it’s lower than my husband’s so and when that’s the case, even if you have, you know, a normal sex drive as a woman, you’re still going to feel like it’s not enough, or maybe there’s something wrong with me, or I feel pressure to want sex more than I actually do. You know, I think, also an alternative way of thinking of it, which there have been some authors and sex therapists who have articulated this well, is that it may not necessarily be a lower drive. It’s a different kind of drive. So instead of an initiating drive, which about 70% of men have, it’s more of a receptive drive. But. What the majority of women experience, and that means that they’re not going to be readily excited about sex, they’re not going to be thinking about it, they’re not going to be initiating it in the relationship. But if the conditions are right, they can enjoy sex, and they can experience in the moment what they might identify as, yeah, I want this, and this is good. So you have those kind of qualifiers, and then you have the women who like just for one reason or another, just do not like sex, and they’ve come to dread it. It’s not pleasurable. They struggle with a climax and so that’s a whole different situation. And there are a number of reasons why women experience that. It can be everything from something with their bodies and hormones, like even menopause, you know, like, I I’m in that age, and a lot of the people I minister to are at the age where it’s like, okay, what happened? Like things were getting better, and now my body doesn’t want to do this anymore. It can be because of sexual pain. It can be that a woman doesn’t know her body and doesn’t know how to become excited or aroused, she doesn’t feel safe, or sexual trauma from the past where the way she’s coped with that is just shutting down sexual trauma, even within her own marriage. The trauma of finding out that her husband’s been unfaithful is looking at pornography. Body image issues where she just can’t even think of herself as a sexual person. She hates her body. She doesn’t want anybody looking at it, touching it. So there’s so many layers of that. And for I think most women that struggle, it’s more than one of those things which makes it incredibly complicated. She can’t figure it out herself, and then her husband, you know, she can’t figure it out. How’s he supposed to figure it out? So, yeah, that’s kind of like the plate of spaghetti that I think a lot of women are working with.

Belah Rose 7:07
The plate of spaghetti, yes,

Juli Slattery 7:09
all the noodles in there just all intertwined. You’re not sure what the actual problem is, yeah, yeah,

Belah Rose 7:16
yeah. That’s, well, it keeps both of us busy, because we get to help people

Juli Slattery 7:23
we do that’s exactly right, and explain to husbands who are listening like your wife actually is normal, and this isn’t your fault, and there’s not something you’re necessarily doing wrong, and she’s never going to be a man. So this is, you know, the beauty of the differences that God designed. And there’s actually something really redeeming when we approach it that way. In that God guide can actually do something really cool through navigating the differences. So a lot of what I try to do with couples is really challenge and reset their paradigms of how they’re viewing this.

Belah Rose 8:05
Yeah, tell me more about that. What challenging and resetting, what kind of paradigms do they need to Yeah,

Juli Slattery 8:10
yeah. I think we all come into marriage with the unspoken definition, maybe even spoken, that a good sex life is compatibility and and really, what we’re saying is a good sex life means I don’t have to work too hard at loving my spouse So, and the research would show that for maybe about 10% of marriages, there’s a natural compatibility in the level sex that they want. And our society would tell us, wow, you know, like, go after that. But I can promise you that those couples who are more compatible sexually have some other area where they cannot see eye to eye, whether it’s money or parenting. So so I think when we approach sexuality and married sex with the paradigm that the best sex is when we’re compatible, we’re going to be frustrated and disappointed, instead of recognizing that perhaps the differences are actually part of the beauty of the gift of sex. And what I mean by that is I don’t believe that you can have a great, long term, satisfying sex life without learning to be unselfish. And so the differences are what cause both a husband and wife to say, you know, this isn’t just about me, like God wants me to learn what it is to be attuned to my spouse, to learn to be safe with them, to address the things that make us feel unsafe, to talk about the fears we have of rejection and our insecurities, and when we begin to do that like we’re actually building something much. Much better than just a great sexual experience. We’re building this intimacy that that goes with us through our sexual journeys, through all kinds of things, through prostate cancer and a slip in pornography use, and, you know, an attraction to somebody else, whatever it might be. We’re building this journey of vulnerability and honesty and unconditional love that wouldn’t be the case if this were just always easy.

Belah Rose 10:32
Oh my gosh. Drop the mic. That is so powerful. That is so powerful. I love that you said. What I learned through this work is you pretty much can’t have a satisfying sex life without learning to be unselfish. Yeah,

Juli Slattery 10:48
long term, long term. It might work for Yeah, it might work for a few months, and it might even work for a couple years, but there’s going to come a point where you’re not going to be attracted to each other’s bodies, or you’re going to have serious disconnects in what you desire. So you can, you can, you can do it for a few months or a short period of time, but it’s going to break down if you continually approach this with what’s in it. For me, I don’t want to have to work that hard and learning to love my spouse and learning to be vulnerable.

Belah Rose 11:24
Yeah, so, because it’s so biblical, it’s just so biblical, it makes sense that God would make something so important to at least one party of the relationship and and thus it’s important to the other. Because if one wants it, obviously it shifts so much of the dynamic, if, if one isn’t anyway, but it makes sense, because that’s what God wants. He wants us to be edified and changed and sanctified. So to have that long term satisfaction, we have to be unsolved.

Juli Slattery 11:57
Yeah. And what’s what’s interesting is you said it’s important to at least one person. The way that most marriages work is that the physical act of sex is really important to one person, but the journey of intimate connection is really important to the other person. And stereotypically, it’s, you know, male versus female, but it can be reversed. So you have one person who’s saying, Hey, we haven’t had sex in a week. I miss you. I’m thinking about you, and you have the other person saying, pursue my heart. Like it’s gotta be about more than just my body. I want to be known. And in reality, they both need that. And so in the in the journey of learning to understand your understand your spouse and learn from them like you actually are being invited to a more fulfilling experience of sex.

Belah Rose 12:53
That’s so beautiful, right? Exactly, because often, well, tell me more about the more fulfilling I want to hear what you Yeah.

Juli Slattery 13:00
So for example, you know, we do these online studies with couples and and I was in one online study with a book that had written called God sex in your marriage. And it was really challenging couples to change their paradigm of what a great sex life looks like. And so most of the men in this study, they had all these aha moments, like, wow. Like, sex is really supposed to be about intimacy. For me, like, I know that my wife is always asking about that, but some of these men are, you know, 4050, years old. I’ve never thought about it that way, like, I’ve never realized that there’s something in me that wants to be known to like, I don’t want to have to hide my struggle from my spouse. I don’t want to have to feel like sex is all about my physical performance, like, I want to learn to be vulnerable and so and I also think that’s true of the person who isn’t as interested in the physical act of sex like as they’re growing to understand their spouse and to find connection and find pleasure. They’re learning something about themselves. So I’m definitely the lower desired spouse in my marriage, too, and learning the beauty of, you know, just being connected to my husband physically, and learning the beauty over the journey of understanding my body, understanding what holds me back, not just sexually, but entering into the experience of joy and life and the moment and and so if I didn’t have that challenge, there’s so much that I would miss. So you know, I’ve learned like, God, he’s never wasting our pain, even when sex seems like such a frustrating issue and creating so much conflict, it’s actually also an invitation into something deeper. Yeah,

Belah Rose 15:02
oh, amen. That is just right. It’s so good because you’re right. I i It’s because I had so many body issues, so many I was bulimic for years. I just, I remember in elementary school looking around the room, judging whether or not I was the fattest girl in the class. And of course, I was, I was sure of it, and just these awful things elementary school, this little girl, you know, just couldn’t feel okay in her own skin. But because of the desire of my husband, I have been able to flower and just become exactly like the bold, strong, confident, feel good in my own skin, woman, but it’s, it’s as a result of, as you mentioned, this journey, yes, of saying maybe he was motivated by his desire, yeah, embracing being known and being embraced and being cherished in my body and and in cherishing my body and and being happy that God gave me Stretch marks because of these wonderful babies that I got to have. I know body that God gave me. I just love this so much. Was there more you were going to share?

Juli Slattery 16:14
Oh, I can always share more, but where I’ll go, wherever you want to go.

Belah Rose 16:18
This is awesome. Well, I I was interested in you mentioned the differences in menopause, and I’m not there yet, so it’s hard for me to speak to it personally, but I’ve worked with many ladies who’ve gone through that, and I’m just wondering if maybe you could give a little bit of for those women that haven’t gotten there yet, like some of the processes, but also like how she can prepare what for women that are in the midst and on the other side, whatever? Yeah, yeah,

Juli Slattery 16:48
sure. So the way for most women that this journey works is that most women don’t even reach their sexual prime until their 30s or 40s, because they have so many hang ups to work through, like even understanding their own sexuality, developing safety in that relationship. So it slowly is getting better and better and better, and then you hit menopause or perimenopause, where your hormones are just going crazy, your body’s shutting off estrogen, and it creates huge changes. Like, the more I’m learning about it, the more I’m like And it creates changes in every aspect of your body, your cognition, your sleep. You know, it’s not just the hot flashes, it’s everything, like, even your risk for heart disease, your cholesterol. So I I’m in this field, and so I get to ask experts this, and I have access to the sort of resources, but I even was, like, caught off guard with some of this. And so my encouragement would be, if you are nearing the age of perimenopause or or entering into it, just do some research. Like, there’s some great books out there you can read. You know, we’ve done a couple podcast episodes on it. There’s, of course, tons of stuff you can find online, like, become aware of it. And the other thing of it is, who wants to go through puberty again? Nobody you know, like all the oily skin and the pimples and but that’s part of life. And I think understanding as we age that that’s part of life too, and there are things about it we don’t enjoy, but there’s also wonderful things about every stage of life you know of usually by then you’re an empty nester. You don’t have to worry about birth control and periods, and you know some of this. So I think with any stage of life, you want to understand what’s happening to your body. You want to mitigate whatever you can in terms of the kinds of help we have with medication or even herbal supplements, things like that. But you also want to just embrace we weren’t supposed to be 20 forever, you know. And there’s some great things about being in your 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond. So I think it’s just that attitude. And then in terms of sexuality, your husband’s probably going through changes as well. With he has lower testosterone and higher levels of oxytocin, which makes most middle aged men more interested in connection, less interested in the act of sex, usually more sensitive. So I have one friend who is a sex therapist, and he was in his 60s, and he says, Julie, you know, I’ve, I’ve realized, as I age, I make becoming more of a woman. You know, he’s like, my my body is, I’m even developing breast, you know, like he was just joking about his body. But I think there is a sense when you look at you. The 30 year old man that has tons of testosterone and may have a very high sex drive and a firm body and has no trouble with erections and things like that. You look at a 50 or 60 year old man, and those things aren’t true anymore, but boy, the maturity and sensitivity and intimacy that’s cultivated in a marriage at that stage can be really beautiful, and so you learn again to mitigate what you can certainly things that are easy, like lubricants, are very important. My OB told me when I started going to perimenopause, always use a lubricant, whether you think you need it or not, because those like that tissue becomes so easily to minor tears that you don’t realize that just scar over time. She also told me, it’s it’s like any other part of your body, use it or lose it, that you know some women stop having sex or have sex less often as they reach perimenopause and menopause. And she said, It’s like any other muscle, like if you stop and then you try to have sex after a time of not having it, it’s going to be more difficult, so in terms of just the muscles in that area of our body. So there are practical tips like that, that, again, are available if we do our research, and, you know, find sources that can give us good information, yeah, I love

Belah Rose 21:27
that. And, you know, I just have a sense that a lot of, well, a lot of women that I’ve worked with that, like hearing, hearing, you say, this vulnerable, this connection, this depth, a lot of times women really shrink back from that. It just feels too maybe the word is exposing, yeah, and I’m curious if you could speak to that a little bit.

Juli Slattery 21:53
Yeah. I talk about the difference between sexual activity and sexual intimacy, and that a lot of couples know how to be sexually active, but they don’t know how to be sexually intimate. And sexual activity is what we’re doing with our bodies. So we could be fully naked, we could be sharing everything physically, but in our minds, in our communication, we’re still like, kind of dressed to the help in terms of, I’ve got all my armor on. I would never tell him this. I’m thinking about somebody else other than Him. We’re not communicating. We’re not we don’t trust each other. And it’s been interesting. When I’ve taught on that, I’ve had a lot of couples come up to me and say, you know, we’ve been married for 20 years, and we thought we had a good marriage, but we’ve never experienced the kind of intimacy you’re describing, where sex is a shared journey. It’s not, it’s not kind of a debated Compromise of, well, I don’t really want to have sex, but you do so we’ll have it once a week instead of three times a week. It’s It’s not meant to be like that. It’s meant to be this deep call to talk about the most intimate parts of our lives and to love in the most tangible way that you could love, and no couple is going to get there immediately. It’s meant to be a journey to where sex on your honeymoon should be some of the worst sex you’ve had, no not in a bad way, like if it was great, super. But to think it’s only going to get better from here, even if our bodies aren’t as beautiful, and even if we’re not having sex as often, and it’s not as powerful in terms of climax, which the shared space that you have and the safety that you’ve developed, and the joy and the memories you’ve developed and the freedom you have should be way More 1520 years into marriage than it was in the beginning. So I think even in Christian communities, we talk so much about what’s okay in terms of the activity that we never cast a vision of what maturity looks like. What does it learn? What does it look like to be mature lovers and to be growing in how we love each other sexually. So yeah, and those are things honestly, like, I didn’t know that when I got married. And it’s really only through being in this ministry and learning and listening and searching that I’m like, wow, there’s supposed to be so much more to this than what we think there is,

Belah Rose 24:43
wow. Okay, will you cast that vision?

Speaker 1 24:51
I cast it. Yeah. So I love

Belah Rose 24:55
the I love the comments, mature lovers. I have two thoughts. Thoughts. One is, how do we know that that’s valuable? And number two, what does it look like, practically like, How does somebody out there say, do we have mine? But also, yeah,

Juli Slattery 25:13
exactly. How do you Sure? Yeah, we’re going to get the theological for a minute, if that’s okay, please. That was my hope. Okay? So when we look at Scripture, you know what is one of the main purposes of marriage and how God created marriage, it’s to be an earthly reflection of the Covenant love that God has for His people. And we’re really comfortable with that, like reading Ephesians 531, and 32 related to our marriage, but we’re uncomfortable thinking about that related to our sex lives. But it says even in that passage, and every passage that talks about marriage, it calls it one flesh and that you’re joined together. So it’s talking not just about marriage in general, but also about our sexuality. So God created the intimacy of covenant, of sex, of all of it to be an echo, a mini reflection of how he loves us. And so when we look at what a great marriage looks like, or specifically what a great sex life should look like, what a mature sex life should look like. It should resemble God’s covenant love. So people get creeped out at that point, like, What do you mean? Like, God loves us sexually? I’m like, No, but he’s created this to be a metaphor for that. And so when I look at the Scripture, what is God’s covenant love? Look like? There are four specific things we see. There’s more than four, but I’m going to name four. First of all, it’s built on a foundation of faithfulness. So our whole relationship with God is 100% dependent on the fact that he is faithful to His word, like if he’s not faithful to His promises, nothing matters. Doesn’t matter how great of a spiritual experience you have, like, we have to be able to trust everything he says. And the same is true of a sex life. The most important element of your sex life is your character. You know. Can your spouse trust you? Are you a safe person? And that’s not just a one and done. It’s developing the kind of character where you learn to trust each other. So that’s the foundation. The second piece is that the whole purpose of God’s covenant with us is to have intimate fellowship with us. It’s intimacy, and that same thing is true with sex, that the goal of sex is really intimacy. It’s nakedness, it’s no barriers, no secrets, knowing each other completely. And even in the Old Testament, the one of the words that’s used for sexual intimacy is the word yada, which means to know intimately. And that same word is used in the Old Testament to talk about God’s intimate knowing of us. So sex is about this intimacy, this knowing. So that’s the second one. The third element is sacrificial love. Embedded in God’s covenant love is that the Father gave His Son, the Son Jesus, gave his life. He laid down himself for us as the greatest expression of love. And in response, we’re told to offer our lives as living sacrifices to him, to take up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Him, and in a similar way, a healthy sex life means that both the husband and wife have an attitude of sacrificial love, of giving to each other. It’s not just about me. If I’m married to somebody who’s been sexually traumatized, the last thing I want to do is demand something from them that would re traumatize them like as long as it takes. Let’s heal together. This is not about what I want, so it’s that spirit of, how do I love you well? How do I serve you well and lay down my demands so that I can love you. And then the fourth element is passionate celebration. So over and over and over again, we’re told in the scripture to rejoice in the Lord. Be glad. Be joyful. The Hebrew people, God’s covenant people in the Old Testament, seven times a year had feasts where they just were told to celebrate, to take time out from life. We do this on Sundays as as New Testament, covenant people worshiping corporate worship, just declaring our love for God in good times and bad and so sex, in many ways, is sort of the celebration of our covenant and marriage. It’s the time that we regularly leave all the. At the door, we focus on each other, we call out and praise what’s beautiful about our spouse, and we get lost in the moment of the ecstasy of love. And so I look at those four things and say, hey, that’s what God’s covenant shows us, and a healthy, mature sex life is, the more we can have those elements represented in our love. So that’s kind of a framework for it, amen.

Belah Rose 30:29
That’s so beautiful, faithfulness, intimate fellowship, sacrificial love, passionate celebration. That is sex, and that is our relationship with God. I love it. Well, it’s mature, mature. Loving mature,

Juli Slattery 30:44
yes, yeah, uh huh. I

Belah Rose 30:47
love that. And, you know, there’s this element of, when you said, Oh, does God love us sexually? And there’s this element of like we it’s almost that we associate sex with bad like, it’s just easy Association, rather than, like, wait a second, what if we really thought that our bodies were made by God and every part of it is good and holy and one flesh is actually beautiful? Why would that not be everything that God would. I mean, if it’s all good, why do we go to

Juli Slattery 31:27
you know what? I mean? Yeah, yeah. Because in our earthly experience, it hasn’t been all good. So in our earthly experience, you know, there’s not a person on the planet who hasn’t, at some level, experienced shame related to their sexuality. Many have experienced wounding, and so they they immediately associate sex with shame, with guilt, with dirty, with being objectified. And so there’s, there’s a long way to go for every single individual couple to actually get to that place of maturity, which is why it’s a journey, why you don’t have that when you first get married, and why it’s something that you have to pursue, and as you’re pursuing it, just as you shared in your own marriage, all the lies come to the surface, the lies about our bodies, the lies about our past. You know, the lies about our shame, the the selfishness and pride like it all starts to get exposed on that journey which is part of the redemptive process.

Belah Rose 32:34
Amen? No, it’s beautiful. And when you say, I did ask you to cast a vision for mature lovers, and you kind of already did, but I’m just, I’m wondering, here’s my nervousness, Julie, because I do this work, I think about this topic a lot, right? Same with you, right? But if this wasn’t my ministry before Jesus, I wouldn’t be thinking about it all the time. I wouldn’t be talking about it all the time. Be talking about the calling to help people become more like Jesus in this context. But there are scientists and there are mothers and there are fathers, and there are engineers and there are street sweepers, and there are people that are doing life for the glory of God. There are pastors and missionaries and all. And I guess sometimes I get nervous that people who don’t have they’re not doing something productive. It’s a little bit more of a preoccupation, and it’s and it really is, just to self satisfy. And I’m just, I guess I get a nervousness around if there’s not productive reason to be pursuing so much about sex, then it almost feels a little Yeah, a preoccupation, an obsession, something that’s not helpful. I’m curious what your thoughts are. Yeah. I’m trying

Juli Slattery 34:06
to 100% understand your question. Your fear is that people think about sex too much for the wrong reasons.

Belah Rose 34:16
Yeah. So I guess in every waking hour, we all have a decision on what to think about. If somebody says, you know, I want to figure out if I’m a mature lover, so I’m going to pursue this. And I’m going to go, yeah, resource, I’m going to read that book and then pursue and another person is like, I get to figure out how to spread the Gospel. And so they’re reading all these books about that sure a limited amount of time. Like, how do we, how do you decide, you know,

Juli Slattery 34:47
yeah, I get it, yeah, yeah. I, I think some of it is, you know, you and I do this work to simplify the journey for other people. So. You know, why do I write a book? I don’t. I don’t write a book to learn, necessarily, I learn. I write a book to consolidate what I’ve spent, you know, 1000s of hours learning and reading and researching for a person to learn it in a couple hours. Or, why do we listen to a podcast. Hopefully we’re listening to somebody who, again, has done that work for us and can give us bite size pieces on the journey. And boy, I need that in other areas. You know, I don’t study racial reconciliation. I depend on people in the body who are doing that work to teach me. I don’t study systematic theology. I don’t study I mean, I can name it like the crazy political world that we’re in, but I need to know the answer to those things. So that’s why we have the body of Christ. And I also feel like we go to where the pain point is. So there are seasons of life where you’re not going to be thinking a lot about sex. You’re going to be thinking about, how do I grieve the loss of my parent, or, How do I how do I navigate a teenager who’s going off the rails? So this should not be our interest in obsession at all times, but there are seasons of life, and I think for most people, they’re gonna hit these patches where they’re like, sex is just creating huge conflict in our marriage, or I can’t get over the shame, or I obsess about sex, but it’s because I can’t stop like net porn. You know, somebody, please help me make sense of this um. And so, you know, the work that we do is entering into that, that pain space, that confusion and help navigate people towards God. Not read 10 books, but really understand that God cares about the struggle, that His word has principles that can help you. You know, one of the biggest things that I think most people don’t do is they don’t pray about their sex life. You know, why don’t we? Because we don’t realize that God actually cares about this and that he is for us. So it’s not to complicate it. It’s really like I know when I hit some of those stages in my life or in my marriage, I was looking for who can help me, not just who can feel bad for me and say, Oh, I go through that too, but who can help me and and we want to have solid, biblical resources available for people who are asking that question,

Belah Rose 37:50
yeah, yeah. And I think that’s a question that a lot of women are, even in their marriage, thinking like, why is my husband talking about this all time, reading about this all the time, giving me this resource, giving me that resource, and I, I would love for her to just have a a pocket in her mind of this is a worthwhile endeavor, yes, same time, and that’s an unselfish piece, right? That might not be a natural interest, but this is for the service of the one person that I, for sure, am assigned to in this life, and in the same moment, I think a husband who may have a level of preoccupation that’s not productive him to also limit himself. So it’s almost like either are doing some a level of a sacrifice, so that the focus is not unduly on just what our natural proclivity is.

Juli Slattery 38:52
Well it does, but I also think it’s not, yes, it’s a sacrificial piece, but it’s also a wholeness piece. So that woman, you know, at first in my marriage, I wanted to figure this out, like you said, to be a good wife, to figure out how to please my husband, but where the Lord ended up bringing me is like, this is supposed to be a good gift for me too. Why isn’t it? You know, what’s in the way? What’s in the way of my pleasure? Because God designed sex for mutual pleasure, and I want this to be a blessing and a place of sanctuary for me too. So I think it’s great to begin to approach it with a sacrificial mindset, but that won’t that won’t last forever. You’ll start to get resentful. And also, that’s not the fullness of what God designed this for. And then for that husband, I would say the same thing is true, like if you’re obsessing about sex, and the answer to your marriage problems is my wife needs to like this May. Maybe you’re putting more on sex than is meant to be there, like, what purpose is sex serving in your life? And for a lot of guys, when they do that work of chasing down the answer to that question, sex represents I’m validated as a man. Sex is the only way I’ve learned to relax. Sex is the closest that I’ve ever been to another human being actually knowing me. And so they begin to learn, too, that actually it’s not the sex that I’m compulsive about. It’s something underneath, and sex is great, and I like it, but maybe God wants me to be free from that compulsion, so I can actually approach my wife as somebody I love instead of somebody that I need something from, and and so again, I it’s not a negotiated compromise of who’s going to sacrifice more. It’s God calling both people to go deeper in the true gift of sex and also the misuse of it in terms of what’s underneath that that may need to be addressed.

Belah Rose 41:11
Well, I do appreciate that you said it might start with the motivation of of right, loving your spouse. Well, yes, of the matter is, there’s a lot of things i i could use the word sacrifice for, because there’s a lot of that journey that you’re talking about sounds like a lot of effort. It is. I mean, in doing our stuff, it’s it’s effort. So it’s a sacrifice, from laying on the couch eating chips and watching, who knows, fill in the blank, dumb things to scroll on and actually saying, God, there’s more here, and I want to pursue it. Yes, that’s a sacrifice, but it’s well, you know that that’s called, that’s called being married. It’s called in engaging in this beloved experience that we have in this world as a follower of Jesus, and embodying your actual body is and,

Juli Slattery 42:05
yeah, and, and also realizing the end result isn’t just great sex, like every married couple, at some point is going to get to the place where they can’t have it anymore, but they’re still alive. So, you know? So what’s the end goal? The end goal is actually journeying with somebody on this amazing, transformational process where at the end of it, we know what it is to be known at the deepest level. We know what it is to delight in each other. We’re free. We’re free from insecurity. We’re free from demands of performance. We’re free from our body image issues, you know, like, if we end up with it, with that, like, prepared for intimacy with God, like that, like as human beings, it’s wholeness. So again, I think our our definition of good sex is so limited that we miss the fuller call to what actually God can be doing and wants to be doing in our lives through it. Yeah,

Belah Rose 43:19
yeah. Amen. That is so good. So what’s the wife’s first step? Because if a wife has said she doesn’t enjoy sex, she doesn’t want it, she doesn’t have desire for it. What? Yeah, what is your like? A practical first step, because I, I have some ideas, but I’m curious what you’re

Juli Slattery 43:45
well, first of all, I think she’s taking the practical first step, if she’s watching or listening so good on you. You know, like, because you’re like, you’re taking a step towards, I don’t want to be in this place, yeah. So I would start with, what do you want? Yeah, let’s make a list of what you do want. Maybe you’re like, I don’t enjoy sex. I don’t want sex. What do you want? Well, I want to be able to enjoy it, or I want to be able to be naked with my husband without feeling insecure. Or I want to be able to trust him with my deepest fears around this, I want him just to cuddle with me naked without demanding more. Okay, well, those are all things that we can work towards, and they’re redemptive things for you and your spouse and your marriage. So instead of always seeing this as I’m the person saying no, what are you inviting him and yourself toward? And how do you start working towards that? And so that that’s a practical step. I think for me, when I was in that stage, I. Prayed about my sex life every day for probably about three or four months without telling my husband, because I just didn’t know what to do. I felt pressured. I didn’t enjoy it. I had sexual pain. I didn’t know where to go, and I just started praying like, God, would you help me? Would you show me what it is to be? I started with be a good wife, you know, like I said, I started with that motivation, but God had more for me than that. So just to invite God into this, instead of feeling like you have to get yourself all fixed and make God happy like he cares about this, he cares about your pain, he cares about your shame. Those would be a couple first steps that I think make a big difference.

Belah Rose 45:52
Yeah, that is so big. That is so good. What if a wife now, all things being equal, let’s, let’s say this is a a good marriage in terms of safe husband does trustworthy kind does his darndest to live out there, Not perfect, but certainly tries to follow Jesus. Well, and for a wife who’d still like the desire isn’t there, let’s say she’s praying about it. She wants to love her husband, well, she wants to engage in sex. She wants to want it, but she just doesn’t seem to be able to get herself there right and give thoughts in the moment or on her journey, like, should she stop making love until she wants it? Or can she keep going what? Yeah, I’m curious. Yeah, yeah.

Juli Slattery 46:50
So I think it’s a few things. Number one, if there’s any form of pain, she should stop whatever’s causing pain, and that can be physical pain. It can be being emotionally triggered. Don’t just be like, Oh, I gotta push through this, because you’re reinforcing the idea that sex isn’t safe. So in that situation, you may want to back pedal and go towards how do we just touch each other intimately. You know, how do we enjoy each other sexually, without intercourse or whatever it might be. So that’s part of it. And then another thing of it is, for most women, a thing that makes a huge difference is when they think about sex. So women tend, in this situation, to think about the problem of sex, like, Oh no, he’s going to ask me again, I don’t want to do this. It’s going to be bad again, instead of actually thinking about the joy of sex. So the way a woman’s body works is her brain has to be engaged. We saw in a negative way, women become very sexual when 50 Shades of Gray had hit the store, you know, like and all these women were saying, Oh, I found my sex drive. And now, do you need 50 shades of gray? No, and I wouldn’t recommend it. I haven’t either. Would not yes. But what it does show is that if we learn to think about sex, it actually gets our body going. And one of the things that helps with that lower desire, wife, and this is something that helps with me, is my husband will one of us will kind of initiate the fact that we want to have sex within the 24 hour, within 24 hours, and so he’ll sort of maybe usually put it on my radar. And instead of feeling like I have to be ready and somehow enjoy this when I’m nowhere near ready, then I initiate within that next day or so when I’m ready. And so it gives me the opportunity to think about sex. Like to Plan time for it to feel like my body’s ready and where it’s like, okay, now I’m I’m there, or I’m saying, can we go on a date first? Can we just make out first? Like, can you give me a back rub? But I’m thinking, this is where I’m headed. So some of those things can make a huge difference. And then also be aware of, I think about it like a pathway, like, if you’re hiking, when you come to a dead end, in terms of your pleasure, where you’re like, things are building, and then all of a sudden they stop. What happened? What is it that is the stop sign? Is it all of a sudden I felt insecure about my body, or he said something that, or there’s physical pain, pay attention to that. Is that really something that should be a stop sign? Or is that something that you need to look. At and work through. We want to turn those stop signs into go lights. And that’s the other thing. Is women learning how to, even in their internal dialog, say to themselves, I want this. I enjoy this. The penner’s book, enjoy. That’s the top that’s the title, is just enjoy, is for women in this situation to teach them to retrain their brains in a way that actually is forming neural pathways towards pleasure and identifying the things that get in the way. So there are very practical things like that that a woman can do to say it’s not just about giving sex to my husband, but me learning to enjoy it, and then me being able to teach him so that he can help me on that journey.

Belah Rose 50:52
That’s so good. I love that it’s interesting. So physical pain. You said, Stop, yes, because I love that you said a lubricant for a long time. I yeah, I just didn’t, I just didn’t know that that was what would be so and it’s so helpful. Coconut oil, organic. Coconut Yes, yeah, I’ve tried to it’s always organic,

Juli Slattery 51:15
I know, but, but I think we sort of believe, like I shouldn’t need it, or maybe I don’t need it. Let’s go about but it’s like, when it’s like, Nope, that should just be part of your regular routine. Yeah. It’s like, okay,

Belah Rose 51:29
especially because there’s so many, whether it’s men or women, almost like, I should be turned on enough my body’s broken if I’m not, or I shouldn’t have sex if I’m not, because that means I’m not actually Right, right? So much nonsense. And I, you know, there’s been many times where lubricated from first and then and then it’s gone. It’s like, what happened? I was right, yes,

Unknown Speaker 51:57
yeah,

Belah Rose 51:58
I would say is huge. And the other thing is, I feel like women need to have permission to finish another way. You can get tired actual intercourse, but you can finish with all sorts of you know, hand, mouth, yeah, and that still allow both of you to finish with pleasure. And there’s no one gets feelings hurt, no one gets frustrated. Everyone can, yeah, continue this wonderful experience,

Juli Slattery 52:29
yes, yeah. And I think it’s like 50% of women have trouble climaxing with just intercourse. And so it’s like, All right, well, then we got to be creative and be okay with that and the timing of who climaxes first, and you got to work that out as a couple. But I think when we have in our mind, it’s always intercourse, it’s always the goal of climaxing together and climaxing during it’s like, that’s not reality, and that’s why it’s shifting the paradigm of, are we building intimacy, you know, is it the faithfulness of just us? Are we learning to yield to each other and care about each other? Are we both experiencing pleasure like those sort of frameworks and goals, they really help us navigate through the complexities and the difficulties through every season.

Belah Rose 53:24
Yes, yes. And I would love your perspective on vibrators, just for women to to hear your thoughts, yeah.

Juli Slattery 53:33
So my thoughts on that are, you know, doesn’t really talk about in the Bible, so I don’t think they existed in the Bible, but what we do see in the Bible is some principles like Paul says related to like gray areas. He says, You have freedom to do all things, but not all things are beneficial. Not all things build up. And I think that’s just such a great principle for a couple to work through. Like you have freedom to use a vibrator in marriage, like it’s if it’s if it enhances your love making, if it builds you up, then go for it. But if it’s something that becomes a distraction, or there’s conflict over it, you know, anything like that, then it’s not good for you. So I think it’s just and you could put in anything there, you know, oral sex, all the things that people ask about. You know, the principle is, is it just you and your spouse? Even in your imagination, like no pornography, that’s not good. But outside of that, you have a lot of freedom. Is it good for you? Does it build love? Does it edify you? Is it something that helps you just enhance enjoyment and intimacy? And if it does, then great. And you might say it did for a season, but now it’s become something that’s a distraction, then get rid of it. Hmm?

Belah Rose 55:01
Yeah, I love that. I love that that guidance and clarity is really good. And I would say that I think the other thing that would be helpful for a wife listening would be making love does not necessarily have to be intercourse at all. It can no lying next to each other, hands one or the other. Vibrators, these different options, because I just find it, find it sad when, when these rules are in place, like you said, it’s not this is a journey. It’s fluid. It’s sometimes. Sometimes it can look like this. It can be over there. Can be in this way. It can be lights on candles. They can be all sorts of very long, very short, like, Yes, and that’s what makes it so marvelous and wonderful, and makes it so that both people do come back to it, because it doesn’t have to be one way. No, have any

Juli Slattery 56:02
final thoughts about it. Yeah, I love that. You know, it’s a journey of intimacy, and the journey is going to look different in this season than it will, but the next season and then having the freedom to just be like, alright, this is where we are right now. You know, we have teenagers who never go to bed. Like, what do we do with that? And you know, we’ve aging bodies or, you know, whatever it is, one of you travels like, just consistently saying, how do we build intimacy? How do we love each other sexually? How do we grow? How do we grow maturity in this area, like we want to be able to say a few years from now we’re more intimate than we were now, you know, like so how do we get there? And a lot of it is that freedom.

Belah Rose 56:53
I love it. I just love this Julie. And I really hope that a wife listening, or a husband listening, has gained valuable insight. And just, I love casting this vision of joy and passionate celebration that that is the coolest phrase I’ve never heard that before, is that, did you coin that phrase? It’s beautiful. I’m

Juli Slattery 57:14
sure somebody said it somewhere else in the ages. But yeah, when I was thinking about covenant. So celebration, yeah, so

Belah Rose 57:24
Julie again, 14 books, Bible studies that you lead. You go around doing marriage conferences and speaking at different events. Are there particular resources that you’d want to share with our listeners that you’d you’d point them to?

Juli Slattery 57:38
Sure? Yeah, in light of this conversation, if you’re intrigued by the things we’ve talked about, God’s sex in your marriage, is really a book about those four pillars of covenant love, and how do you build them? And then the job with Julie podcast is kind of our weekly just kind of drip in talking about all things related to God and sexuality. So that might be a good way to just since you’re already a podcast listener, just listen to another one.

Belah Rose 58:09
And I would love to just ask you, Julie, what is a project on the horizon that’s getting you excited?

Juli Slattery 58:13
Yeah, I’m gearing up for a book launch on July 1 with a book called surrendered sexuality. How knowing Jesus changes everything. So, yeah, so geared up for that one, excited for it, but thanks for asking. That’s

Belah Rose 58:31
so relevant to this topic. No wonder you got this so tightened up. I love it. Okay, cool. Um, before we wrap, do you mind praying for the wife I would love

Juli Slattery 58:40
to Yeah, Lord, I thank You that You formed our bodies, and that means every piece and part of our bodies, and you never leave us, that there’s nowhere we can go from your presence, which means that you know all of our fears. You know our conflicts. You know the pressures that women and men face in marriage and the wounds that we have, thank you God, that not only can we not hide from you, but you don’t want us to. And I just pray for specifically that wife right now who has experienced sex in her marriage is something that has not been a gift to her, and who maybe feel like it’s been the opposite of a gift. And I just pray for redemption. I just pray that you would comfort her heart, that You would speak to her that you would let her know that you see her pain and her frustration and that you would guide her, guide her to healing, guide her to freedom, guide her to see her body, herself, her marriage, her sexual relationship, the way that you want her to see it. And we just pray for healing and for. Them in redemption. Thank you that you care about every area of our lives, that you tell us always to cast our cares upon you because you care for us. Um, thank you, God. We love you and you are worthy in Jesus name Amen.

Belah Rose 1:00:17
Thank you so much, Julie, it was such a pleasure having you appreciate

Juli Slattery 1:00:20
it. Thank you. I really enjoyed this super fun. Oh, good. It

Belah Rose 1:00:24
is me, too. Thanks. You.