0:02

Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:19

Well, I don’t know why you tuned in today. I don’t know if it was because the title piqued your interest, or if you’re a longtime listener of the program, or, yeah, there’s just so many, so many reasons you could be listening. And for one, I just want to say that this is a safe space, to allow your heart to be touched by someone else’s story. And if you’re in the midst of maybe the hardest thing you’ve ever gone through, maybe you’re in the midst of the other side feeling horrible regret. I just believe that Mona, her story what she has to offer today, where she and her husband found themselves however many years ago, and where they’ve come now, and what that process that incredibly painful process looked like, what happened, how they processed? So yeah, Mona’s Mona has done this, she’s walked in the shoes of a victim of adultery of someone who was betrayed. And she’s done the hard work. And she’s walked the hard road. And she has herself said that healing is possible, something she didn’t think was possible. I believe that there are some really wonderful jewels in not only this first half of her episode, but also the second one. So if you’re going to go ahead and commit to this episode, I’m going to ask you to commit to also listen to the second episode. It’s coming out next Tuesday. So if you’re listening in the future, it’s just the very next episode. So yeah, because she follows up with us a lot of the things that we talked about on the first episode and the second. So I would just say, if you’re going to listen to this one, you need to listen also to the second one, because there’s so much more perspective, especially if you’re someone who maybe hasn’t dealt with adultery on either side. But maybe you’re concerned, you know, maybe this brings some concern in your heart. We talked about it on the next episode, so I want you to listen. Alright, well, let’s go ahead and dive in. It’s a powerful one. So yeah, maybe, maybe grab a notebook and write down the things that maybe God wants you to pray through or think about later.

3:09

All right. Welcome back to let your marriage listener, I am really excited to have you today. Thank you for joining. And I also have Mona Shriver on the line. Hi, Mona.

3:20

Good morning. Good morning.

3:23

I am so glad you were able to join. We’ve had a little technical difficulties, but we persisted, we got through it. So a listener, you’ll probably notice that the audio quality isn’t quite what you have come to expect on the DCIM show. But at least we got through so I’m grateful for that. But yeah, so Mona. Mona is a wonderful friend of Penny. And now if you got a chance to go back and listen to Penny’s interview, on the delight your marriage show, it’s just a wonderful, wonderful episode. Part one in part two, I just encourage you to go back and and search for Penny. But Mona has a website and ministry called Hope and healing.us. And, Mona, I just want to first off just welcome you to the show. And would you go ahead and introduce a little bit about yourself and your family and kind of your day to day life.

4:18

Okay, well, it first of all, thank you for having me. And we’re just a normal couple. We live in central California. We have been married 42 years now. I got married when I was three. It’s like oh my gosh, would you say that out loud it out loud. Everybody kind of knows how old you are. But anyway, we have three grown sons and two beautiful granddaughters. My husband is a radio producer audio video producer. I was a nurse for about 20 years. And we’re active in our local church here. are in town I teach Bible studies do some speaking. And I’m involved in women’s ministry and I do some writing. Wonderful, wonderful. Well,

5:10

I am very excited to have you on, as I said, Penny Bragg and I did get a chance to see her episode numbers are 88 and 89. If you want to go back and listen to that, but Penny, you know, really mentioned that you have such a wonderful story and ministry. And you know, I think that yeah, I want to dive into that, before I do, would you kind of just give us a little bit of a sense of your personality and your husband’s personality?

5:37

Oh, my goodness. In short terms. I, I’m a pretty strong personality. And I tend to be kind of a TAF type person, I want to get the job done. So if there’s a conflict or anything, I want to deal with it and get it over with and get past it. My husband is much more mellow. And he’s a conflict avoider. So pretty typical, it seems like a lot of couples have one or the other. And so you know, those tend to, you think it would complement each other. But actually, it can almost do the opposite. You know, we’ve learned a lot over 42 years, we certainly do marriage differently now than we did in the beginning. But we just blow up compromise is a big part of our relationship and talking things through until we can both agree.

6:32

Mm hmm. Very nice. And just to start off our conversation, is there a scripture or a quote, that has meant a lot to you over the years or even recently?

6:43

Well, hope and healing has a scripture that we use in Second Corinthians one through three, chapter one, two, and three. And if you’re going to ask me to quote my favorite scripture, and you would think I’d be able to do that with,

6:59

oh, no pressure at all, I over scriptures constantly, my listeners know that very well. So don’t you worry.

7:07

It’s the scripture that says, Oh, I have it right here. Thank you, Jesus for the book. It’s second Corinthians chapter one, three through five. And it’s Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion, and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. And that’s just really means a lot to us. Because we’ve been through some difficult things as last year, if you’ve been married 40 years, you’ve probably been through some difficult things. But God really revealed to us that getting us through those things and showing us how to heal are his intent is for us to pass that on and to help others take that journey. Because the credit journeys are just that they’re caretti.

7:56

Yep. Amen. That I mean, that’s just so right on target with this whole conversation, because that’s exactly. You know, when we, you know, the god of comfort, that’s so beautiful, you know, another spot, I think it’s in Romans, it says, The God of hope, you know, and I think that’s exactly what he gives us when we get a chance to hear someone else’s story. That’s it. Yeah. Yeah.

8:22

In front of a couple and say, there is hope you can heal. And we know at particular points in their process. They don’t believe us. And that’s okay. But they can hear the words.

8:31

Yeah. And, yeah, especially when you get this, the perspective of understanding that across the table is someone who knows that there is hope, because they’ve been through it, they’ve lived that. So that’s brilliant. And that’s what I want to kind of talk about first off is really that, that difficult season that struggle in your marriage. If you could kind of Yeah, take us there. Let us know what your story is.

8:59

Well, hope and healing is an adultery recovery ministry that has come out of our own adultery recovery. So in 1993, Gary came home one night and confessed to me that he’d been having an affair for three years with my best friend. And he also confessed to a one night stand. I had no idea I didn’t know I thought we had a really good marriage. We could always talk about everything. But at the time, we had three children at home, and one was a particularly challenging child. And we were just busy doing life. We were Christians. We were active in our church. And we just did life didn’t did everything we thought we were supposed to do. And in fact, the sad part to me is that we thought we were taking care of our marriage too, but we really weren’t. We were deceived in that. And so when he came home and confessed now and I have to back up a little bit, because of those three years he’d been in the affair. God had had me in a very deep Bible study, and I’ve been growing spiritually. So my initial reaction was, thanks a lot, God, three years at your feet, and this is what I get. But anyway, so in retrospect, God had prepared me because prior to that, I probably would have just told Gary to take a hike. Yeah, we were faced with the choice, do we try to save our marriage? Or do we divorce. And I knew that a lot of people would think I had biblical reasons for a divorce. But we did have those three children. And we had seen enough of their friends who’d come from divorced homes to know that kids don’t get over that is, there is damage in that. And so if we could heal, that would be ideal. And he had always been my best friend. So I felt like I’d lost my two best friends. And so I decided, well, I’m going to have to face God at the end of all this, and I’m going to have to be accountable for what I do and don’t do so I’ll try. Not for one minute Did I believe we could heal? I pretty much figured it would be impossible. But I wanted to say I tried. And so we began that journey. And a very long story short, we did heal, we ended up getting Godly counsel, he asked me at first if I wanted to go to counseling, and I said why? The only thing that would make this okay was if it did never happen. So what was the counselor going to do? And as I told you, our son was very challenging, and we ended up at the counselor’s office because of him, or for him, I should say, and said, Oh, yeah, and by the way, you should probably know what’s going on. And so then we did get counseling for our adultery issue. So between the Lord and a lot of hard work and some Godly counsel, we just started this journey didn’t have a clue how to do it. I remember slinking into the Bible bookstore. There was no internet at this time. And I, I went into the Bible bookstore, hoping to find something that would help us heal. And there was one book on adultery recovery, and I slithered up to the case, you feel just slimy, going up to the cash register, and probably tried to make some comment about my friend who needed this book, hoping they wouldn’t know it was me, and took it home. And it turned out to be a very good book. It really did help us. We read it together. But one of the things that surfaced early in our recovery, especially for me, and then for Gary two, was our pastor and our counselor told us we could heal that they knew people who had healed from infidelity. And then I called Focus on the Family immediately. I said, Send me everything you have on adultery, and they sent me the tapes, there’d been a couple of programs. And so everybody says you can heal, but the programs from focus were all anonymous. They all use pseudonyms. Well, that just made me angry. Because where are the real people? And we asked our pastor, we asked our counselor, do you have a couple that could just sit across from us at a table and see, yeah, you really can’t heal? And we know because we did it. And no one could find us that couple. So we went on, and did our work. And God, did he heal us or at least bring us to a much better place and progressive healing. And about two years later, our counselor called us back and said, Hey, do you remember that need you had for another couple? And we said, oh, yeah, sure. And he said, Are you ready to be that couple for someone else. And at that point, we kind of went, not sure.

13:51

Because we were we were in a much better spot. And we really didn’t want to go back to that. But that’s what started the ministry. He put us together with another couple. We met for about a year. And not only did it help them, but it helped us finalize our healing. It was such a miraculous thing. And he came back to the four of us and he said, Are you guys ready to form like a little group and I’ll send you couples and you can be a support group. Not one of us hesitated. It was absolutely win, because we had all seen the value. And that’s how hope and healing began. We had our first group in 1998. And we continue to serve couples today.

14:30

Wow. Wow. That’s incredible. You know, and I think a couple of things you talked about, first of all, is that first you mentioned that those three years you had really dug deep into God. And then this was revealed. Yes. And you said, you know, at first there was like a big offense like what God I was doing all this for you. How could you do that? Which is I mean, I hear that I hear that in my own heart, I would feel I mean, that’s exactly how we would feel. How did you kind of get past that? Like, yeah, what was your process of getting from? God? How could you to this was a grace?

15:15

Well, first of all, we need to understand it is a process. And this when we are entered like this, this adultery recovery is a trauma. And I think it really helps if you understand and and I’m, I’m sharing with you information that substantiated by studies and professionals in the field. But the revelation of infidelity is comparable to the sudden death of someone you love. So when you think about everything involved in the sudden death, and how the church comes alongside those people like crazy for a while, because they are because physiologically, there are some biochemical things that happen, your brain doesn’t work, right? Emotionally, you are so traumatized, you can’t really cope. So if you think about what do you tell a widow whose husband just died, you say don’t make any major decisions, yet, you’re not thinking straight. And that’s what we tell couples, no major decisions yet, you know, unless you need to separate for safety or something, but no major decisions. And so how I got there was very slow. And a lot of sitting at God’s feet. And I was very honest with God, I was mad at him. I couldn’t, uh, you know, it was, how could you, you were supposed to protect me, blah, blah. But then you have to look at what he says in His word. He says he’ll, he’ll comfort you in your troubles, not out of them. And the point I wanted to be comfortable, I didn’t want to go through this stuff. And he said, I’m right here with you. And so during that time, there were a few occasions where the tangible presence of the Lord with me was just incredible. And those build your faith builds you get good support, who help you remember just who God is and what he said, and and delay and so that anger gets processed and set aside. You know, you’re never happy it happened. You wish it hadn’t happened that But God didn’t do it. Jerry did it. And and our marriage problems Gary and I did together. So it’s just I had to give myself permission to go there is a really good answer. I, I did a lot of time trying not to feel that way. Because I knew it was wrong. You know, a dear requesting God help. You know, well, baloney. That’s what I was feeling.

17:34

Yeah. Yeah, that’s really good. That’s really good. You know, I think we do. I wonder if you would agree with this. I

17:41

think we do. When we’re really presented with the hardest thing. We, we feel like it’s ungodly to get angry at God. It’s not appropriate, we shouldn’t. And so that almost adds to the pain because we can’t be honest with God. Yes, our lifeline, our support in the midst of the trauma, the tragedy,

18:03

well, in I think what happens from a practical standpoint is you only have so much energy. And if I’m putting all my energy trying not to feel, then I’m not doing any thing to try to heal. And that’s misplaced energy. So, emotions are human, and they’re normal, and they need to be processed. And we have to just find healthy ways to process them. And there are some really healthy ways and I did end up doing that.

18:35

I love what you just said, if you’re putting all your energy towards not feeling, you’re giving no energy to the healing that you need to be doing. It’s powerful. And there’s a couple other things you mentioned. That I kind of want to you know, I want to dive into some of the practical you said there’s some some good ways. Before we dive into the practical I want to hear a little bit more just about you know, when when when he came home and told you this, I mean, what what kind of things were going through your head how were you? I mean this, so you said this was a best friend of yours?

19:12

Yes, yeah. My best Christian for it. What was going through my head when he walked in the room, I knew something was horribly wrong. And because he looked like somebody had died, and I knew we’d had a meeting with our pastor, because he’d gone there to confess I didn’t know that, but and I thought, oh my gosh, something horrible happened to someone at the church. And he sat down and he told me and it’s I’ve heard one retreat speaker and I wish I could give her credit but she calls them the suddenly, in an instant, you know, your life will never be the same. And I knew that my life would never be the same. I didn’t know what it would be like but this was a pivotal moment, a defining moment in my life. Ironically enough, No, I had no suspicions of the relationship. My greatest fear was that it would be her. And so in my mind went through several other names and, you know, acquaintances and that sort of stuff. And I can almost feel that I prayed, Okay, Lord, let it be them, not her. But it was like I knew. I think that’s a Holy Spirit thing. I’ve heard many other betrayed spouses say the same thing. And it’s not because we’re in denial. It’s not because we really knew. And suddenly our blind eyes were open. But, yeah, so those kinds of things are going through. And knowing that I had lost the marriage I had, and I didn’t know what I’d end up with. And then every day, it’s just just overwhelming pain. My biggest struggle was the pain. So some betrayed spouses get angry, and that’s their biggest struggle, and you tend to go through all of them, but my initial was pain I was incapacitated.

21:01

Wow. Wow. And, you know, you mentioned the, the actual trauma, like you said that I mean, it’s it’s absolutely scientifically based, I actually just picked up a book that I can’t recommend necessarily, because I haven’t read it yet. But basically, it’s it’s called. It’s not PTSD disorder, but as PTS I believe it’s I disorder, which is post post traumatic stress, infidelity, something like that? It’s

21:29

infidelity Stress Syndrome. That’s it. Yeah. Yeah. Read that, to think about that acronym. But anyway. Yeah, it’s if you look at the diagnostic criteria for post traumatic stress disorder, most betrayed spouses fit it by the military definition. So you, it is that much of a trauma. Absolutely. And, and when you think about it, so many times, especially in the church, you could go sit in front of a pastor or a counselor, and the betrayed spouse will be told, your husband or wife has confessed, they’ve repented. Now, let’s look forward and make this marriage healthy, can’t be done, can be done. So and it can’t be done? Well, not at that point, they have to, because if you look at how Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is treated, the way you get through a trauma is to understand what happened. And they went, you know, it’s like, if your husband drops dead, they’re going to take you back to your husband, and they’re going to process all those things, you have to figure out just what happened to me, because you don’t know. And if you don’t, in, there’s a grieving process, if you don’t go through the grieving process, if you don’t mourn, you just bury all that stuff. And it doesn’t go away. It just ruins your life. So you really have to look backwards. I can’t remember the the person but life is understood backwards. And so you have to go through that. And I had to figure out what happened to my life for the last three years. Because suddenly my life as I knew it was not true. Right? Right. What what had my life been? Oh, my goodness. Right. And that takes time. That takes time and a lot and Gary had the pieces to fill in. He hasn’t talked to me,

23:24

really. So I’ve heard that. That’s part of the process of healing is to get every little detail from your spouse, some some spouses need that to heal. Is that right?

23:37

Yeah. In fact, most spouses now the problem comes with details. And and I’ll try and make this short, because this is probably the most controversial issue in adultery recovery, where you can get a lot of different opinions from professionals. So most all therapists agree that a betrayed spouse needs to know the who, what, when, where and how you were able to deceive me. But and here, here’s what hope and healing says. And we, we have experts that agree with us. The betrayed spouse determines what they need to know. Nobody else, not the counselor, not the pastor and not their husband or wife. They determine what they need to know. The argument is, oh, if you tell them too many details, there’ll be pictures. Well, I’m sorry, those pictures are there in your head. What happens is and let’s just take what hotel that you go to, instead of every hotel I see. Now I can limit it to the Red Lion. You know, and so, but the, the other it’s so sometimes, and it depends on your personality, like I told you, I’m a detailed task person. So how do you think what’s my coping mechanism? Detail task? And so, if you try and take that away from me when I’m in a trauma I’m even worse off. So now the problem with details Of course, that’s how explicit do you get? What do they need to know. And again, we will default to the betrayed spouse determines that. Because every single time we have seen a betrayed spouse be told, your time is up for questions, you can ask no more, it damages the healing and puts a wedge between the couple every single time. So what we do is we tell betrayed spouses, you get to know whatever you want. Now, take your time. Because you don’t have you don’t have a week long to ask. You don’t have to know everything right now. In fact, you can’t handle everything right now. But just know what you need to know will be answered. So think about it. Questions about comparison to the affair partner are usually not healthy. Yeah, you know, who’s better? Who’s the, you know, those sorts of questions are not going to help you heal necessarily. If you feel you need a piece of information, that information has one purpose only. And that’s for healing. It’s not to be used as a weapon. So if you’re not sure you really want to know that for healing, then don’t ask today, ask next week or next month or even next year. But what happens is some spouses are told you have one session, two sessions or two weeks, well, what are you going to do? If you don’t know if you want to know the answer, but you only have two weeks? You’re going to ask it. Right? And so we try to give them freedom. And then there are some other things that can help in this in this process. But it really is the betrayed spouses decision. And Dave Carter, who is Christianity’s counselor, therapist, experts for infidelity recovery. You know, he says the person who was unfaithful was in the driver’s seat. Now, the betrayed spouse is

26:51

wow, wow, that’s intense. That’s so good. Yeah, yeah, I want to kind of outline a couple of things. You said that. You said that, you know that, right? Like the betrayed spouse gets to determine how much they need to know. And I love that you tempered that with. So choose wisely. What do you need to know? Right? That if you give that, as you said, the betrayer it’s, it’s that they were in the driver’s seat, they can’t be anymore, that’s not okay. That the power needs to be transferred again to the other party. And so that piece that control that they can have, as long as they need to process and heal and come up with the questions they know, they need to know. But I mean, I’m, I’m like, probably every other, you know, woman who hasn’t thought this through is my initial thing is will tell me everything I have to know, every little bitty, you know, all these things, why? And how and what and all these things? And, you know, at the same time, those will haunt me for the rest of my life. If I if I know everything, right, is that kind of a concern?

28:10

Well, it is a concern. And unfortunately, in those first couple of days, a lot of us do things. But that’s that we may be wished we hadn’t. But that is why we really need godly support. That’s why he opened healing exists, we spent an hour or so on Skype last night with a couple that are early in their recovery discussing this very issue. And, and it is a very common discussion. And so what we hope happens, by the end of that call set, the betrayed spouse has permission to ask, the unfaithful spouse realizes they do, but they’re gonna handle it differently. And let’s say you do get some information that is overwhelming. And you’re really struggling with that. That’s the healing process you need to go through. And when that switch of power happens, you know, that’s not that’s not a godly marriage for either person to be powering over the other. That’s a temporary switch until you heal. Because the goal is a healthy marriage. Not you know, so. A lot of unfaithful people say, Oh, great, I’m going to be treated like this for the rest of my life. Right? Our answer to them is, yeah, you will if you fight healing, but if your goals a healthy marriage, this is a temporary situation, because the goal is to have a marriage that honors God and honors both of you. Yeah. So you’ll you’ll get back there.

29:38

So it’s just so powerful, and it’s so wonderful. You have I mean, the hardest things we go through. Sometimes that’s exactly what God wants to say. Now it’s time to help someone else and that’s what you’ve done with hope and healing. So it’s so powerful. I do want to ask you before we move on to kind of the other section of the interview is you said from the get go. You said, Now I had two choices whether I was going to save the marriage or divorce. And I’m going to have to face God at the end of all of this, right? And I’d like your insight into that.

30:12

Well, you know, we are each accountable to God for our own actions. So I need to meet as a Christian, my commitment is to do things God’s way, not my way. And so there are tons of things in Scripture that tell us how to go through things with what attitude, and if my attitude no matter what Gary does, but if my attitude for the rest of my life was to hurt him as much as I could, to make him look as bad as I could to make sure everybody knew what a horrible, awful person he was, including his children, I am in sin. That is not okay with God. That’s not how we treat people now. It was I wound it did Gary woo me, of course, he’ll be accountable for that, but I cannot be accountable for my actions. So you know, when God says, Well, no know how to handle this, this betrayal. And I say, Well, you know, Lord, Gary’s just horrible sick. He’s gonna say, Mona, I didn’t ask you about Gary, I asked you how you handled it. And so I believe that with all my heart, and I, I’m going to be accountable for what I do. And the other thing that’s really important to believers is that my role as a believer is to serve and obey God. There were many times, and for a long time, I could care less about Gary, I didn’t care what he wanted, or how we wanted it, I did want to hurt him. Now that we’ve healed, there are still moments that I don’t care about Gary, I’m mad at him or whatever. So it’s all my decisions on how I treat him or based on him. That we’re, that’s gonna be rock and roll world. But I want to be the wife and the woman God called me to be. It really doesn’t have a whole lot to do with Gary. It’s what God told me to be. So really understanding what God’s called us to be as a wife and a woman. That’s my goal. Yeah, and I can do it for God. When I can’t do it for Gary.

32:21

Praise God. I so wise, it’s just, you know, I just did an episode about this about purity of thought, because sometimes, when we if we don’t have a vision of that, eternity, whatever, you know, there’s some some people, and I think it’s a biblical notion to consider eternity as something where where we have work to do this is like almost like a, this is like a an interview process this 80 years or 90 years that we have on this earth, you know, and the next 1000s and 1000s, and 1000s is the is the actual job, but you’re interviewing for almost, you know, and if we don’t have that view, of what is my responsibility, when God laid out and said, This is what your to be as a wife, we know, it says you’re not married in heaven. We don’t know what that’s even going to be like. But if we didn’t stand with our, you know, intention to do what God asked us to do hell or high water. I mean, you know, we all have our cross to bear.

33:25

Right? That’s right. And as Gary never was a perfect husband, guess what, I was never a perfect wife, and we never will be. We never will be. But marriage is the closest thing that God has revealed to us. That simulates the relationship he wants with us. And it purifies us as a human being like no other relationship. You know, we can pull off stuff with all kinds of people, but it’s behind closed doors 24/7 that our real edges show, right. And God uses our husbands and wives to sue those.

34:03

Yeah. Yeah. And, and the strength that your husband showed to confess. I mean, that process that was so horrible, and you know, a lot of people think, and I’m sure you deal with this in your ministry a lot is like, well, she doesn’t have to know what, you know, something that happened 10 years ago, or five years ago, or we stopped, it doesn’t have to be told, then, you know, I want to hear your responses. But I my thought is that, then that betrayer doesn’t have the ability to go through the process of humility, of, of, of, you know, depending on Jesus for these things. I mean, he has to go through that intense process, and that’s going to make him more like Jesus, because clearly, there’s this double faced sadness in his spirit in himself. That is, that is a huge problem. I mean, is that kind of your thought on it?

34:54

Well, yeah, absolutely. And I hear that all the time. But the truth is, and I didn’t Gary got that. just like everybody else gets busted, you know, he got caught. He just when he got caught, he chose to confess, instead of, you know, continuing to try to hide it. So yeah, it’s it is that process. And the other thing is, we are all capable of this. It’s not just that Gary’s got a character flaw. And I know, if we look at the scripture that says, Our heart is desperately wicked, and no one can control that, and I’m misquoting kind of monitors versions totally fine. That’s I know what you’re. Yeah. But the point is, we believe that about everybody else, except the people we love. The we expect our husbands wives and children to be far above that. But that’s not that’s not the way it is. Yeah. Part of going through this is realizing that we are all capable, this all capable. Yeah. And that’s part of my healing too.

36:11

It’s just so powerful Mona’s story and the insights and what she the work she does, you know, she’s dug in. And I think that vision of eternity is really what kept her going was really that first step, the first step that she needed to say, I’m going to dig in, I’m going to do this excruciating process of healing. That vision of eternity. I talked more about that on episode 104. Purify your thoughts. So if you again, are on either side of this perspective, whether or none, we all have a battle in our mind that I think there’s a lot of insight. So if you before the next episode, if you’re listening to this, when the date comes out, you might want to go to Episode 104. And listen to my thoughts on that. But do again, I do want to really encourage you to listen to the second half of Mona’s conversation, it’s just packed full of insights that you you really will be able to apply and insights that matter. Maybe it won’t matter to your marriage quite so much. But maybe it’ll matter to someone else that you interact with that you know, what they’re going through, you know how to deal with it. You know how to give them hope, because you’ve heard it, you know, that it happens that someone can have hope in the midst of the heartbreak. I love you. And I’m praying for you, the person that’s listening on the other end, I’m praying for you and what you’re going through, and your marriage. I love you. God bless you. We’ll talk next Tuesday.

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