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Hi there! Belah here. Today I have Chris Taylor of forgivenwife.com shares the struggles that began with two decades of incredibly sparse intimacy. Sex was something she didn’t enjoy because of her guilt due to a promiscuous past. Listen to the pain that’s so evident as Chris shares how sex began to transform her marriage. Though it was a difficult road of humility and change in herself and in her marriage. Sex drew her closer to her husband and God.

Scripture/Quote:

• You turned my wailing into dancing; you removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy. Psalm 30:11
• Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Psalm 51:10

You’ll Discover:

• When Chris looks at her marriage, she would say that the first 20 years of her marriage was missing intimacy in every aspect.
• When she was in college, she found worth in the her short-lived relationships that were essentially hookups.
• She couldn’t understand sex as anything other than a power play.
• How her husband would initiate sex and she felt offended by his advances and he felt rejected.
• Sex always felt like it was for him and she would think about her grocery list waiting for it to end.
• When her husband was depressed because of his lost job, he stopped initiating and that was a cue that something was wrong.
• How she struggled for an entire year of pain to turn things around in intimacy.

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• Myers Briggs personality tests: 16personalities.com
• The Marriage Bed Forums boards.themarriagebed.com
• Sign up for the free, live Peni webinar (oral sex training for wives): delightyourmarriage.com/14

Tweetables:

• We were both very lonely in our marriage. Both of us.
• When he would open himself and be vulnerable, instead of responding positively, I would think he’s really digging deep to make me feel guilty so I’ll have sex.
• Now I understand he wasn’t giving me what I wanted it was because he felt so rejected.
• My husband would say, ‘I could live with sex once a month if you were really there for it’.
• I worked one little baby step at a time and I failed more times than I succeeded but eventually I got to a place where I was confident in sex.
• Sex was the thing that drove the wedge between me and God and it has also built the bridge back.
• Over time our marriages can change, but it does take a lot of time, a lot of persistence and a lot of grace for ourselves and for our spouses.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:00
delight your marriage episode 18.

0:04
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah rose.

0:21
Hey there, and welcome. This is belah rose, thank you so much for joining me today. And I just want to ask you to consider for a moment you saw the title, it’s about not letting your past get in the way of your present intimacy in your marriage. And I think so often we feel badly about either things that we’ve done, or honestly things that have been done to us where that it wasn’t fair, and we were maybe the victim of something that was really not okay. But also there are things that we have done in our past that have affected us. And, you know, it just makes us feel unworthy of what God is doing in our lives now. And today, I am so excited to share with you Chris’s story. Now Chris Taylor from the Forgiving wife.com has just an incredible story to share about how God has transformed her marriage from something that was honestly just so lonely and sad and cold, isolating. But you’ll hear in her story that God wasn’t done with her. Even though she felt guilt about her past. Even though there were things she felt like she didn’t deserve. You know what God was not done with her. He wanted her to have a good and fulfilling marriage. And I want you to know he wants that for you as well. So go ahead and dive into this. Listen to what Chris has to share. And I just believe that this is going to help so many marriages, She’s so brave to share how she had to really change the way she was thinking in her marriage. And thank God, because it’s really cool what has happened. So listen in and I’ll talk to you on the other side

2:25
Alright, welcome back, delight your marriage listeners. I am really thrilled to have Chris Taylor on the show today from the forgiven wife. And she writes at forgiven wife.com. And she’s just got a great story. And we’re gonna dive into so much about her marriage and her life right now. So Chris, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

2:45
Well, thank you for inviting me, this is nice. Well, I’m

2:49
really thrilled. And it’s, it’s gonna be great. May I ask you, if you could just introduce yourself and your family and kind of what your day to day life looks like?

2:59
Well, my day to day life, I don’t really know what it’s like we’ve been in so much transition the past year or so. I live in southeastern Wisconsin with my husband, Doug. And we have three young adult kids. One is away at school and informs us that she doesn’t need to live with us because she is all grown up now. And she can take care of things. And it’s a good thing. And then I have two sons who right now live with us. But they’re both trying trying to move out. So you know, family life is in transition. I lost my job a year ago, which was difficult. But it also opened up all sorts of time and space for me to do more ministry work, more writing more editing. So right now I you know, teach one class at a local college, and I spend a lot of time online reading and writing and doing editing work. So my day to day life is I’m still trying to figure out what that is. Yeah, but it’s fun. And I like having the time. And it’s nice to be at home to do that.

4:03
I love that. And I’m sure so many that are listening can relate to that. Because I feel like I could point to almost any point in my life and be like, Well, that was a transition time.

4:12
My whole life is transition. And really

4:15
is. And you know, I mean, that is what life is. And that’s why our relationship with God is so important because we can trust him in the midst of WoW, things are moving all the time. But I’m just grateful that you’re sharing so openly, because I really think that people can relate with that. Now, would you share a little bit about you and your husband’s personalities?

4:33
Oh, my gosh, that’s such a funny question. Because we are totally opposite in every possible way. You know, we’ve we’ve both done, like Myers Briggs Type indicators, and I’m INFP and he’s, he es TJ, you know, so total opposites, or opposite ends of the spectrums. Politically, we have I’m an extreme introvert, he’s an extreme extrovert. I mean, it’s just, you know, together we make a very funny Really flushed out one person. But we are, we are completely opposite and so many ways. But that’s been very good for both of us. You know, he, he likes to live in the present. And you know, I’m one who wants to anticipate all the possible things that could happen and plan for how we’re going to deal with certain things. And he says, Why are you spending all that energy thinking about something that we might not ever have to think about? Because then I’ll be prepared. So, you know, it’s so, so strange. Sometimes when people look at us, how did you two end up together? Well, you know, we flush each other out. So it works. And we make each other laugh. And that is, that is the one thing that just pulled us both to each other was sense of humor, and he is the only person who’s ever made me laugh. Like he does.

5:52
Oh, I love that. And I love that you shared that that’s really together you are very like, as is your your strengths kind of fit into each other’s strengths and weaknesses fit into each other, you know, kind of like, yeah, what I should be really

6:07
what he doesn’t do well, I do very well, and vice versa. And our kids have benefited because they have, you know, not grown up thinking there’s one single way to be, yeah. And they’ve pulled from both of us. And you know, we can look at each of the kids and see how their bits and pieces of each of us in that unique human being. And you know, it he certainly has challenges, though, to be so opposite from each other. But at the same time, we can see how that has been an amazing part of how God has put us together and how we benefit from that. But it is

6:46
amazing. Yeah. Well, it sounds like also, I mean, you right? And so you’re you’re very intellectual in terms of your thinker, and you process and analytical. And it’s interesting, it’s not as though I’m imagining your husband is similar if you have polar opposite. Oh, no, no, what is he like,

7:02
in terms of he talks? I mean, he’s a talker, and I’m a writer, I am the one who’s very self aware, you know, everything I write in my blog, I’m able to pull back exactly what I was thinking and feeling, you know, 20 years ago? And I’ll say, How do you How did you feel when I did such and such last week? And he’ll say, Honey, you know, I don’t think deep thoughts like that. i That’s not me, that’s you, you tell me what I thought. And so, you know, and I process everything visually, and through, you know, lots of thinking and introspection and self awareness. And he talks through things, which just interferes. So, you know, if he wants me to, if he wants to share something that he sees online, he’ll read it to me out loud. And then I have to take it from him and read it for myself visually, because I cannot process what I’m hearing. Wow. But you know, we’ve made it work.

7:59
Yeah. No, I love that. Well, it’s wonderful. I, that’s the reason I asked this question is because I think so often, in our marriages, we think we’re the only ones that are going through whatever difficulty is, and so especially personalities, sometimes, you know, you get married, and you get a couple years into your into your marriage, and you’re like, oh, my gosh, we are total opposites. And you think that’s a huge negative thing. Whereas I love that you frame it in a way of we together, can complement each other and make go make a great life together. I love that. Well,

8:30
it is how God helped us be whole, I think.

8:33
Yeah, yeah, I love that. So this, this podcast is all about inspiring and empowering wives in the marriage. So I’d love if you could share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years, or even recently.

8:47
Well, I have, I always find myself going back to the Psalms. When I’m, you know, undergoing a great deal of stress over something. It’s always the psalms that I turn to, they just, they inspire me, they comfort me. And they remind me that I’m not the only one who has problems. Sometimes it is dealing with anger and frustration toward God. And the Psalm has always helped me feel better about those feelings. But the one that I think well, there are two actually, but the one that really stands out the most is from Psalm 30. It’s verse 11. You turn to my wailing into dancing, and you remove my sackcloth and clothed me with joy. And when I think about my marriage, there was so much time when I was miserable, and God has turned that wailing and mourning I was doing for so many years about the sad state of our marriage, and he’s turned that into joy. And it’s just, it’s, it sort of just captures what God has done in our marriage. The other one that really stands out is Psalm 51, verse 10. And that is creating me a clean heart, O God. and renew a right spirit within me. And that one speaks to what God did not within our marriage, but within me. Because so much of what changed through our marriage and the means that God used to turn my wailing into dancing was by helping me have a clean heart and opening my heart and transforming it into what it should have been all along. Those two verses are just, they speak the most to what I’ve gone through the last few years, I think,

10:33
Wow, well, you’ve definitely piqued my interest in into the story. So I’m really glad that we can move into that next because what how this really applies to your marriage. And, and I just love your humility in how, you know, you mentioned how you lived and how you are now how you’ve changed. I mean, I know when I was, so I was married before my current marriage. And I know when I was in that terrible place in my marriage, I was so defensive about how I was living and how I was acting, because I was just so insecure. I mean, that was all I was, I was trying to justify myself and trying to act like I was right the whole time. And I know there are so many things, I think God has been kind to reveal to me now that I completely did wrong and made mistakes and these kinds of things. But, but I just love you were able to stay in the marriage and make huge changes and, and come out on the other side, which is incredible.

11:28
Yeah, it really it really has been. I like to think it’s because I did certain things. But really, it was God because I certainly couldn’t have changed. Turn this marriage around by myself.

11:41
Wow. Cool, well, can we jump right in, then I’d love to hear about difficult season or struggle in your marriage. And you know, for the benefit of those that are going through the same things, really. But yeah, go right ahead.

11:56
Well, we’ve been married. In April, we have our 24th anniversary. So we’ve been married, you know, almost a quarter century and for the first nearly 20 years, so two decades of our marriage. It was not, it wasn’t that it was awful. But it was not good. And it was not healthy. And the problem. When I look back, I see that the real problem was the lack of intimacy. And I don’t just mean that as a euphemism for sex. Neither one of us was fully sharing ourselves with each other. And it became this sort of Crazy Cycle. I brought in to the marriage, a whole lot of sexual baggage. I had horrible self esteem as a young woman. And the only time I ever got any attention from guys was when they were interested in sex. So I went through a phase in college when I was very promiscuous. And, you know, felt very much like damaged goods. So even once I got to the point of thinking, well, this isn’t good for me, and I shouldn’t be doing this. I felt like I had lost the right to have anything better. And that was the young woman who came into this relationship with my husband, somebody who didn’t feel she believed that she deserved anything better. You know, some of my, well, I can’t really even call them relationships. We weren’t calling them hookups, then. But that’s pretty much what some of those things were. And I had learned all these horrible lessons about sex, that sex is for men, that sex is not about emotional connection, that it’s something that I can do that gives me power over somebody else. And that it’s the only thing of value in me. So, you know, I meet this guy who is from a very godly family, with parents who have a good marriage, and are affectionate with each other. And he has a mother who’s not an emotional, I mean, not that she’s not emotional at all, but she has a fairly even temper. And he ends up with this woman whose emotions are all over the map. I live, I always say I live my life on an emotional landscape. My feelings drive, everything. And so there’s this, you know, broken down self worth damaged woman with this guy who’s basically a decent guy and fairly healthy. And neither one of us knew what to do with the other. And every time you know, he would initiate sex, I needed that emotional connection. I needed to feel it. Not physically, but I need to I needed to feel in my heart that he loved me not just for sex. But, you know, his initial initiation would be things like well, I’m horny, or do you want to? Well, no, I want you to make me want it. Right. But the process of me saying that and made him feel rejected. So we kind of got on this horrible merry go round that was just became this sort of tornado where it just got worse and worse and worse. And, you know, there was one year when we had what was, you know, clinically speaking, when when experts say there’s a sexless marriage, it means that there’s sex 10 or fewer times a year. And there was one year when we hit that. And sexual frequency was, you know, maybe once a month, maybe twice a month. So frequency was bad, he always knew that there was likely to be a no more than a yes. It never occurred to me that sex was for me too. And then even when we were, what I would, you know, cave in and have sex with him. I would barely participate, I was resistant, you know, he had to do all the work, I would be lying back doing my grocery list in my head waiting for him to get done.

16:06
So, you know, it was just this horrible thing. And it finally you know, his industry got hit hard by the economy. So in 2008 2008 2009, he lost his job. And then over the next several years, he had several jobs that didn’t last because, you know, the, the dominoes of the economy were kind of falling down. And he just kind of happened to be, you know, last one hired his first one fired. So he, he was unemployed for a great deal out of, I think, out of a five year period. So he was home feeling depressed, and he started to lose even an interest in sex. And he stopped, even trying to initiate, which kind of created some space for me to start thinking, while something’s going on. And he stopped laughing. And I stopped laughing. And, you know, I would read these articles that would say, Well, what was it that drew you to your husband in the first place? And I would think, well, we laughed, but we don’t do that anymore. something’s broken, something’s wrong. And we were just miserable. And I think we probably, you know, I think we probably would have ended up divorced if we had continued the way things had been going. Although I think it would have been just as likely for us to stay and be platonic roommates and barely even have a friendship. And we were both very lonely in our marriage, both of us. So it was a very difficult time. And you know, we would have these talks about sex, and he would, for such a unknown, self aware guy, he revealed so much of his heart to me. And instead of me thinking, Wow, he’s really sharing his heart, I would think, Oh, he’s really digging deep to try to make me feel guilty and make me have sex. And I would just, you know, the more he would open himself up and be vulnerable, the more I would build up these walls between us, because I thought it was only about sex, and that I expected, you know, I had expected all these other guys in my past, to value me only for sex. I wanted more from my husband. And he wasn’t giving me that, which now I understand was because he was feeling so rejected. And he couldn’t be that vulnerable with somebody who he felt was rejecting him. I mean, it was just this awful spiral where it just got worse and worse and worse as it went on. Right. But we were both lonely, and miserable. So our season of, you know, our difficult season of marriage lasted nearly two decades. Thank goodness,

18:54
I’m just so grateful that you’re sharing this story. And I thank you so much for being open with it. Because it is not uncommon, which is, I mean, I’m interested in how how you were able to kind of shift things. What was the catalyst that kind of made things start moving in a different direction?

19:15
Well, I think once he, you know, once I recognize that he was depressed, and he stopped pursuing me. I think that gave me a little bit of space, to not constantly feel on edge. Like I was constantly having to protect myself against his advances. You know, heaven forbid, I do anything that might give him any ideas that he wants to have sex, because you know, that would be horrible. Yep. So when he stopped the pursuit, I began to think about things and you know, I think God had been working on me for a long time and I finally just got worn down enough that I couldn’t resist God anymore. And my heart had begun to soften At one point, I remember standing there looking at my husband. And thinking, yeah, it would really be nice to have a good marriage. But I don’t deserve that, after all the things that I did, as a young woman, in the promiscuity, I just, you know, the guilt was just weighing me down. And I thought, I don’t deserve a good marriage. And it suddenly hit me. But maybe he does. And it’s not really fair that I’m dragging him down with my guilt. And I didn’t know what to do with that feeling. But it was there. And then in, you know, this whole thing had, I had just built these walls up, not just between me and my husband, but between me and God. So I didn’t even want to go to church. I didn’t want to pray. Because, you know, God had taken my husband’s job away. God had made my husband as sex crazed maniac, and God probably didn’t love me anyway.

21:01
So one Sunday morning, Doug went to church without me because I just we’d had a huge sex fight the night before. And he went to church and I was sitting in the living room couch online, I think I pulled up, you know, was on CNNs website or something. And there was this article about Christians having sex. And I thought, oh, you know, after all, that he’s whined about sex. Maybe, maybe I need to think about trying to do something different. I don’t have a clue what that would mean. Maybe I’ll at least read the article. And, and maybe they’ll, I was thinking, you know, maybe it’ll give me something to convince him that he’s wrong. But I’ll at least look at the article. And one of the little sidebar articles linked to the discussion forums at the marriage bed, website with Paula Paula Maury by earlies website. And I went on there and looked at one particular thread, and it was all, you know, people sharing people whose spouses had rejected them sexually talking about what it was like, and sharing different, you know, metaphors and analogies. And you know, I’m in a seeking boat and, and they were sharing their hearts, they were saying the exact same things that Doug had been telling me for years. But somehow seeing, not just that other people were saying the same thing. But seeing that this was the volume, the number of people saying the same thing. It just hit me that that was, I had not had this empathy for my husband. I had not been able to see things from his perspective until I heard his words from other voices. And reading those things, and the sheer pain that came through, I ended up sobbing in the living room floor completely broken. It hit me so hard what I had done. And I had no idea what to do. You know, it’s like, okay, now I get, I have killed my husband’s heart. How do I even start now. And that was where God was right there. The moment that I was broken, was the moment that I started healing. And I didn’t know how to turn it around. But I looked, and I thought I can do one thing. I can do one thing today, what is it, and I spent a lot of time really considering the things that he’d complained about over the years, you know, frequent sexual frequency was a big issue. But the thing that really had stood out was that for all this time, you know, he had said, I could live with sex with sex just once a month, if you are really there for it, you know, none of this lie back and wait for it to be overall I do my grocery list. And I thought, Okay, I’ll work on that. That’s the one thing I’ll start with, it was his biggest complaint. So I thought, if I can try to become more present for sex, that will at least be one thing that he can’t complain about anymore. And maybe that will make him less depressed. And maybe that will make things better. And it did. I worked one little baby step at a time. And I failed more than I succeeded, but I kept at it. And eventually, I got so that I was not only able to participate in sex, I was able to do it very well, and feel confident about it. And then I could look at the next thing, and then the next thing after that, and it was really, God just kept me being persistent. And he never let me forget that I’m going to being broken and sobbing on my living room floor. So many times I wanted to give up, and that I failed. But I always thought back to that moment of where my heart just broke down and realized what I had been doing to my husband. In the remember, remembering of that was what gave me the persistence to keep going. And, you know, I think the first six months, I don’t know, it, my husband noticed, but he didn’t think it was on purpose. He was afraid to say anything, because he might jinx it. Maybe she doesn’t realize what she’s doing. But as soon as I pointed out, she’ll say, Oh, I’m sorry, I’ll stop now.

25:44
Right? I didn’t know the depression.

25:47
No, heaven forbid, the first six months, were were very difficult because he was not, you know, he was not responding or acting any differently than he always had only me the second six months or even harder, because then he realized that I was doing it on purpose. And it became, he started to feel a little safer, and really expressing some of those feelings he had repressed. So his anger at me, his sadness, it all became safe to express. And he was really difficult to be around. Because he kept thinking, if you can do this now, why couldn’t you do this? 10 years ago, when I was begging you, why couldn’t you do it then. So that first year, if it weren’t for God pulling me through, and keeping that memory of that brokenness, I would have given up many times. But after the first year, we laughed again. And then I knew it was all gonna be okay. And there’s been so much growth since that first year. But it was when we were laughing together again, and we’re back at that relationship that we’ve had, when we first met. That’s when I knew that what I had done, really had made a difference. Gosh, oh, my gosh, I’m just blown away, Chris. I just like, God broke me and pick me back up. And, you know, it was a really, it was that first year was so so very hard. But now, it’s so different. And, you know, I, it’s a story of my marriage. But it’s really the story of all these different things God did to draw me closer to Him. Because all those walls I’d had up between me and my husband, there were even bigger walls between me and God. And even since I’ve worked on things in the marriage, God has kept working on me, and he’s used, you know, that sex was the thing that put these walls up between me and God in the first place. Yet, that is the same thing that God has used to pull me back to him. So sort of the thing that drove the wedge between us has built the bridge back. And it’s just, it’s been amazing. And, you know, our marriage now is just, you know, it’s, it’s not that it’s perfect. We still, you know, we have arguments, and there are still times when we get on each other’s nerves. And, you know, we’ve, we’ve recently moved, so there’s a lot of stress, and neither one of us is at our best. But the difference is that instead of having those things push us further apart, we know that those things are happening on a foundation of intimacy, and health. And so, you know, we, we bicker a little bit, and we, you know, aren’t happy with each other, but then we know that we’re able to come back together, sexually and otherwise. And that that kind of pulls us back and reground us in what our marriage is. And then everything’s okay, again. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So this marriage that we were both so lonely and has just become such a source of joy and comfort for both of us. Oh,

29:23
my goodness. Wow. Well, I mean, there’s so many wonderful keys that you shared. And I take notes when I record these interviews. And already, it’s completely filled. I can’t even mention everything I want to just brand, how marvelous each of these points are. And it’s clear, you’ve thought a lot about this and process so well. But the fact that you were in a marriage for 20 years and how the status quo and had this is the way I interact in my marriage, this is our pattern. This is our culture. We’ve developed over two decades to be able to change that. I mean, Mike Gosh, not only to be able to change what you’ve done for 20 years, which takes a lot of humility, a lot of being willing to just accept and push through and keep going and trust God that things are going to ship eventually, but for a year for it to have been so difficult to process your husband, I mean, I’m just so grateful that you shared that, especially because I think sometimes we think that, well, I need to change. So he’s got to, you know, step up, now I’m ready for the response, the feedback, the positive,

30:31
exactly, I’ve finally given him what he’s been begging him the light before. So why isn’t he happy? Right? Well, you know, I very much can look at it my process of growth and my healing, and I can see that, but what I think it’s so easy for women, in my situation, to not remember is that husbands heal too. And that just as my healing has, is a process. So his his, and his healing, couldn’t even start until he realized that I was doing this on purpose, and that it wasn’t just a fluke, that was going to go away. So I think, you know, Doug’s healing didn’t really begin until six months in, and that anger and frustration that I got from him, those were the first pieces of his healing. And somehow, you know, I persisted. And I think even then, God was letting me know that this is part of what my husband needed to go through, in order to get to a place where we could be okay. But it is really hard. And I and I hear from women all the time, you know, I’ve been doing this and it’s been six weeks, and he’s no different. Okay, sweetie, keep it up another six months. And then in, you know, the thing is, we can’t do things. We can’t go through this change to get our husbands to change, because that’s, that’s on their husbands, their healing is their business. What I needed to do, as soon as I realized what I had done to my husband, I knew that I needed to do something differently, even if it was too late. And too little. I knew that God was telling me that I needed to be a different kind of wife. And I needed to do that regardless of Doug’s response. And it was, it’s the hardest thing I’ve done in my life. And it was completely worth it. But it was hard. It was really, really hard for a year. And then it wasn’t as hard. And it’s gotten easier since then. So you know, I still have occasional moments when he’ll say something in a way that just makes me bristle. And I’m thinking, really, that’s what you want. I just need to have some emotional cuddling in this way. If so, you know, I still have those responses that start to bubble up in me, but I learned to move past them. And I no longer let my feelings drive my actions like I did. And I can say to him, honey, I’m really having a hard time processing the words that you just used. I know your intentions were good. Can you just give me a few minutes, and help me settle down, and then we can, we can proceed. And because he knows that that’s not me trying to put things off that it really is going to happen? Right? He’s happy to do that for me. Yeah, it’s not just another ploy of me trying to say something that’s gonna push him off, which is what he always thought it was before. Right. So you know, as wives, we need to do what we need to do, because it’s what God expects of us, and what God wants us to be as wives. And I think, over time, our marriages can change. And over time, our husbands can relax. But it does take a lot of time and a lot of persistence, and a lot of grace for ourselves and for our spouses.

34:02
Yep. And I love that you mentioned the change being such a process. And not only was it the year of significant challenge, but then even after that, here and there, you still have to push through even now. And I think anyone who’s had a significant transformation, maybe you started out in a difficult spot, growing up, maybe maybe there were some challenges or abuses that kind of thing. You’ve had to change your personality, you know, I mean, I struggled with bulimia for years. And so that change didn’t happen overnight, even though the actual actions changed overnight. You know, I did stop that habit. But they’re still even even now. They’re still different, you know, thought processes that I have to recognize now that’s unhealthy. That’s not right. That’s not godly. That’s not God honoring, and I have to still conform to his image even even even years later.

34:55
And those scripts I don’t think those scripts ever completely leave our heads. They’re there. The difference is that I now have new scripts to push back against those old bad ones from the enemy. But sometimes it’s not as easy as other times, men. So you know, I am good at giving myself some grace and recognizing that, you know, it is a process. And yeah, you know, it’s okay that you stumbled and you, you know, you wanted to say no, or that you really didn’t feel like you weren’t fully engaged this time. Right? It’s okay, that happens sometimes, as long as you’re getting back up, get back in the saddle, so to speak, and do better next time. And my husband also, there are still times when he won’t be completely honest about what he wants. Because there’s still this part of him that says she won’t, she won’t agree to it. Or she wouldn’t want to have sex anyway. Because I taught him that over those two decades, he learned that no, is the default response. And he can’t I can’t expect him to unlearn those things any more than I can expect me to completely unlearn everything else. It’s a process. And we’re, we’re just both in such a different spot. But that doesn’t mean that we’re that those old habits aren’t underneath they’re wanting to bubble up.

36:22
Yeah, yeah. And one part I wanted to just pull out from your story is, sex was the thing that drove me away from God. And it’s also the thing that brought me back to him. I mean, that’s just so brilliant. And I think that is definitely my story. Because of my promiscuous past, prior to being married the second time and just having these all these hurt feelings towards God about it. So I just love that, I’d love for you to kind of go into that a little bit more that how sex actually brought you to God, because I think a lot of times women still have this mentality that well, sex is bad, and sex shouldn’t be part of my life, and I shouldn’t really be enjoying it. And I mean, how did you kind of get into something

37:03
else? Well, you know, I, I didn’t have an upbringing, that, you know, my parents didn’t really say much about sex. So you know, I didn’t grow up with any of this teaching that says that sex is ungodly. My parents didn’t say anything one way or the other about whether I should save sex for marriage. So, you know, I was, I felt a lot of guilt. But I think a lot of that was more cultural. At least I thought, but you don’t know I’m looking at it. God was trying to press these things on my heart. And I just didn’t know that that was God. So you know, they actually this this realization that that was the you know, the tool that was the wedge became the tool that was the healing. I realized that last week, I was, I was writing something, I woke up and I just had this stuff I needed to write. And as I was writing this down, and all of a sudden, that just hit me. How amazing God is that the very thing that I had let pushed me away from God was the thing that God used to just pull me back. And you know, it was it was the promiscuous sex, that drove me away. Or that I let pull me away. It wasn’t anything driving me away, it was me really feeling unworthy of being in God’s presence, because it was so dirty and bad and damaged. And when I began to work on sex in my marriage, you know, I always had thought, well, let’s work on the relationship. But once the relationships fine, then sex will just be a natural thing. And I was, I was a perfect example of somebody who said, you know, act first, and the belief in the feeling will follow. And it really, I think, was two, two and a half years into the process, when I got really settled enough into the sexual intimacy in our marriage, and that that was really healed, that God, I could see God pulling me towards him. And I could see that it wasn’t really about the marriage all along. It was really, God wanted me to heal the marriage, because he wanted to pull me closer to him. And it was just one of those things where, you know, little pieces of things started to pull together and you know, I think, you know, my, my journey of change and transformation started in you know, it was September 2010. And it was just about two years ago now, it was April 2013. That I started the blog. And, you know, I I remember sitting there thinking I could, completely unprepared to do this that I was thinking about Moses being told to go talk to Pharaoh, but God, who am I? And I thought, oh, yeah, I’m so like Moses. But you know those words from Exodus for coming, but But who am I, I don’t have the words. And what I heard from God was I have prepared you. What do you, what are you talking about? Well, then I was able to look back at all these different things in my life. And the times when I had been, you know, talking to other young women about their relationships and counseling, and encouraging them, I thought about all the different the what volunteer work I had done in my life that I’d found most meaningful was in helping women. I did some volunteer work with women in high risk pregnancies, because I had spent three and a half months on bedrest when I was pregnant with my twins. And I did some online support for women with gynecological health problems. So I could see all these little things. And then God reminded me, you have a master’s degree in writing, why do you think I did that? And my career that I’d had for, since the late 1980s, I was a writing teacher, the college college writing instructor. And I thought, Well, duh, all these pieces that I never, I always thought that I was just sort of, you know, wishy washy, and flitting from one thing to another. And now I can see that those are all different pieces of things that God had to put into place. So that I could do this. And, you know, I, when I started the blog, I thought, oh, you know, I’m fine. Now. I’m finished. I’m a finished product. I can sit there and do this. I think I have grown more with God. Since starting the blog than I did before, then. Yeah, I think the blog is for me and anyone else?

42:10
Yes, yes, I hear that.

42:14
So all these different pieces of things, you know, and he’s his I’ve written about sexual intimacy in marriage, I have experienced so many moments of self awareness, and my relationship with God. And so it’s just It amazes me that I’m writing something and I ought my prayer with every single blog post is that at least one woman have her heart touched by what I’m writing. And there are times that I’ll write something, and I’ll get no comments. And, you know, no shares on Facebook or Twitter. And I sit there and I think, Wow, that was a dud. And then three months later, I’ll get an email from some woman who says, I just ran across this, and I have to tell you, that post changed my life. Oh, my goodness. And I, you know, that just blows me away. And I’m so amazed and humbled that God blessed me be part of that. Yes. And that’s just who am I to get to be part of anybody else’s healing, uh, just you being God’s tool. It’s an amazing thing. And at the same time, there are other posts when I don’t get any feedback at all. But I know that I gained something from the writing of it. And God reminds me, every one every post will be touch at least one woman and sometimes it’s okay, if that one woman is you. Though, I am my own audience sometimes.

43:48
Yes, yes. And it’s funny. I know that. There’s just so many books and things that I’ve read myself that have changed my life that I might build all my girlfriends, but I’ve never reached out to the author.

43:59
So well. Just, you know, sometimes we hear from people but there’s so many more people who never respond, who we just, we don’t know. We don’t know who we’re reaching. But God does.

44:19
So well put, Chris, we don’t know who we’re reaching, but God does. So if you can hear my voice right now. God knows your name. He’s got a plan for your life. And he loves you so deeply. And he knows you’re listening to this. This is part of his plan. It’s not a mistake that you’re here right now. I just want to encourage you if there were some pieces of Chris’s story that ring true for you. Just encourage you to hold those in your heart. ponder them, pray about them. Consider them. If you’ve been holding back from intimacy with your husband. Now’s the time to indulge a little bit more, to jump in to the ocean to stop standing on the sidelines, but get in there and engage. And you just don’t know what God’s gonna do on the other side. I mean, look, Chris really persisted and battled and went for it. And for a year, it was hard, it was really hard. And yet, look what’s happened. Look at what has happened, what God has done through her persistence, the grace that He has given her for the work that she has also done. I’m just so grateful for her story in the next episode, Episode 19, actually, will be the second half. And Chris has just so many more insights to share. You can tell she’s a quite a deep thinker. And she just really lays it out next time, about the reason she thinks her marriages survived and the way it looks today. And she’s got a pretty great intimacy tip that I don’t want you to miss. The other thing I’d like to mention now I know this is a longer episode. Thanks for sticking with me. But today is the webinar I’ve been talking about the specifics of Penny, which is oral sex in the context of marriage. Now, this is a webinar only for wives. So ladies, please come on. It’s Tuesday, 8pm Eastern Standard Time, you can find out more information at delight, your sorry, delight your marriage.com/fourteen I would love, love, love to have you there’s a bunch of ladies already signed up. I’ve gotten some emails, I mean, there is some excitement about this. And honestly, I am excited. I feel like as I was preparing for this webinar, God just downloaded so much insight. You know, when you’re just you take that step of faith, it’s a little scary, but you just start and you go for it. God so honors that I I’ve just found it time and time again, I’m a little scared. I go for it. Anyway, I pray about it while I’m doing it. And then God just honors it. So I’m really excited. I hope you can join me it’s eight o’clock tonight. And if you’re not an Eastern Standard Time, just just figure out the conversion, whatever, sign up, and I will see you soon. If you’re listening to this in the future, I’m hoping that I will have another one. So again, go to delight your marriage.com/fourteen. And we will talk soon, my friend. Thank you so much for your open heart. When you listen to these podcasts. I know it takes a lot to really hear a story and let it get inside of you and let God transform you through it. But I believe today was an opportunity to do that. If you need to listen to it again and hear the pain and the trials that Chris went through and see what God wants to do in your own life and marriage. I’d say go for it. But until next time, I love you. I’m praying for you and God that He would just bless your marriage and your life and most of all your walk with him. I’ll talk to you soon.

48:06
Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion