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You are not alone. A story about abuse.Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Karen, a DYM listener who bravely shares her heartbreaking—yet very enlightening—story. She talks about her own struggles with anxiety and depression and thoughts of taking her own life due to abusive experiences from  childhood. She shares about the more recent issues of sexual abuse that has  ravaged her family. Not only did these affect her individually, but they have also taken a toll on her marriage. She tells about how the frustration and emotional torment affected the intimacy in her marriage. Listen as Karen takes us deep into how common sexual abuse is and how victims have been silent under a blanket of shame. Karen urges everyone to keep an seek help from trustworthy people who can help and support you.

Scripture/Quote:

“Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?” (Matthew 6:27)

“Even a scared person can do a lot for God.” (Belah Rose)

Get help. Don't make it a secret.

You’ll Discover:

  • How Karen went through childhood thinking that some unlikely things were normal
  • How she struggled with “touch” issues and avoided of any type of physical contact
  • That she found it difficult to transition into marriage with the baggage of her past experiences and fears
  • How she dealt with her husband’s addiction to porn and what they did to resolve it
  • What steps they took to be better individually, as a path to getting better as a couple and as a way of saving their marriage
  • How Karen felt like the monsters of her past came back to life when a similar experience happened to one of her daughters
  • How she had fell into the deep, dark hole of depression and how she tried to bounce back
  • How important it is to speak up and not hide under the shadows of shame

Books & Resources Mentioned:

Your children should understand that adults are there to protect them.

Tweetables:

  • It takes a special kind of guy to be a great daddy of daughters.
  • Because it wasn’t discussed, it was made shameful.
  • You have to make sure that children understand that adults are there to protect them, not hurt them.
  • Everyone I’ve ever trusted ends up hurting me.
  • Punishment vs. consequence: Punishment is about making you hurt because of my anger; consequence is about changing your actions so you won’t do it again.
  • Get help. Don’t make it a secret. Don’t make the shame worse.
  • My sex education came from the movies.
  • I thought there was something wrong with me because the women in the movies seemed to enjoy it, and I didn’t.
  • Just because it’s a secret doesn’t make it shameful.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:00
to light your marriage episode 31.

0:04
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, this show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah. Rose.

0:20
Hi, there, this is Bella, and I want to thank you for joining me today. If you have never heard, the delight, your marriage podcast, I want to welcome you today. And I got a really sad, but very common truth is that abuse happens. And as sad as it is, it happens a lot. And it happens a lot to children. And I think all of us can think back to our childhood. And, you know, they’re just things that should have happened that didn’t and should not have happen that did. And, you know, maybe maybe you didn’t have that heart of a childhood, but maybe you were you perceive things in the wrong way that, you know, spoke something to your heart in the way, especially of sex that a lot of times we don’t hear about sex when we’re growing up. And then we think certain things that are just totally false. Or are you know, parents do things that are actually bad, like, a lot of fathers think it’s appropriate to introduce their sons to pornography, as sad as that is. And I mean, there’s just so many kinds of issues like that. And I think the worst part of it, is we don’t talk about it. That’s the worst, because we think that we’re the only ones struggling with this debilitating fear or anxiety or concern. And I mean, that’s what this whole project is all about is bringing those concerns into the light, and allowing God’s truth to show us what’s really going on. So I have an amazing woman today, her name is Karen, well, actually, the the names on this podcast are actually changed because I wanted to make sure that we protected her and her story because she’s so courageous to share what she’s been through. And with the hope that other sites that have been through similar things can have the courage to not hide anymore. So I just want to honor Karen and be grateful that she was willing to be so brave and let that be a help and support to each of you listening, that you also can be brave. And you also can talk about the hard things that either have happened to you or that you’ve done or the things that you know are going on in your heart that need to be shared. Karen is so brave to do such a thing today. And so I really want to just dive in and listen in on what she has to say.

2:59
Right, well, welcome back delight your marriage listener. This is belah rose. And I am just so excited to be with Karen today. Now Karen is actually a listener of the dollar marriage podcast. And she reached out to me bravely to share her story. And I just thought this is really got to be something that the listeners need to hear. And so I just want to welcome Karen, and thank you so much for being here. How are you doing today? I’m fantastic. Thank you. How about yourself? Doing great doing great. Thank you. And I just want to kind of dive in and just would you be willing to share about yourself and your family and a little bit about your day to day life? Sure. My name is Karen. And my husband and I have been married for almost 12 years. He has a child from a previous relationship, which is my 14 year old and technically, she is my stepdaughter. However she’s not a block of wood. So I never refer to her as a step I always refer to my daughter. So and then I have a nine year old as well. And so for fun. I’m a musician. I work as an office manager at a in a town close to mine. And then I play in music stuff at church all over the place, big Easter pageants, all sorts of fun stuff. worship teams. Oh, that’s so good. Yeah, I was in worship band when I was younger, and it’s just such a good, a good way to connect with the Lord with that’s totally different from talking and other kinds of ways. Oh, absolutely. Music has been such an essential part of my life since I was really young. And so that’s how I connect with a lot of things. I connect with people that way I connect with thought that way. And it’s just, it’s it’s more relevant and easier for me through music. Wow. Oh, that’s so good to hear. Awesome. Well, I know we’re going to dive into more of your story. So would you share a little bit about you mentioned 12 years of marriage, you and your husband? What are your personalities like? We are actually both very introverted. Which seems weird because a lot of times when your show I hear stuff like opposites attract, but yeah, yeah, both major introverts, so, and he’s a big geek. And he always says, First geek to nerd because a geek gets the girl. So right now I’m sitting in his office with five shelves of Lego figures and transformers. So Oh, that’s so fun. Yeah, yeah, little boy’s dream at my house. I love it. Well, there you go. It’s actually really cool. Because the girls are really in or like, when they were younger, they were really into like My Little Pony and Littlest Pet Shop. So they’d have these huge villages set up in their bedrooms, like going between them with a train in between them. And then hubby would take one of his transformers, like a jet or something and fly over to them. And then he would transform it. And he’s like, Hey, want to do coffee? And so that’s how he played with them. Oh, I love it. That’s awesome. Yep. That’s really great. Just to hear that, like a father playing with his daughters that way, that’s really great. He’s a fantastic daddy of daughters. And it takes a special guy to be a daddy of daughters, because, cuz they’re not. He’s not the rough and tumble tough guy. He’s the sensitive guy that takes care of his girls. Oh, I love that. That’s awesome. Well, I think we’re gonna dig more into that soon. Would you be willing to share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years? Sure. I actually have one from you. Which total good. I know. You said a couple of weeks ago, you said even a scared person can do a lot for God. And Oh, praise God. And my first was Matthew 627, which was can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life? And because I deal with anxiety, it’s it’s one of those things that really spoke to me. So even at the height of my fear, I can still do something for God. Wow. That is powerful. Yes. Even at the height of your fear, you can still do something great for God. Wow. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Well, thank you. I’m honored. That was a treat. Well, I would just love for you to, you know, I know. I just, you know, listeners, I didn’t actually dive into Karen story, because I really wanted it to be fresh for you all. First time, I’m hearing it. So I’m so interested in hearing about the difficult struggle or season, either in your marriage, or maybe things that trickled from before your marriage. And I know you’ve got this really thought through and I’d love for you to dive in if you can, okay. Well, this has gotten a lot easier to talk about after 15 months of therapy, just you know, yeah,

7:46
thank you. Yeah, I have an older brother who is mentally handicapped. When I was a kid, my dad was in the Navy. So he was gone quite a bit. And my mom was left to take care of both of us. And so when you have a child that has special needs, and you have one that doesn’t, you know, the special needs kid needs more attention. And so I just, I don’t ever remember being held or cuddled as a child. And, and it’s one of those things that it, I didn’t even really think about it until I got older. And I don’t think that it was intentional. But it was the root of some touch issues that I have, like, I just, it’s been a huge problem for me. And then when I was about seven, my mom was doing a master’s program. And my dad was TDY through his responsibilities in the Navy. And so my mom had to do like a whole bunch of extra internship hours or something for her master’s, and they didn’t have any place for me to be during the summer. And so I and I don’t know how exactly this all came about. I don’t remember a lot of it. But I was sent up to my grandparents for the summer. I remember being told that I was a little liar, and that I was beaten with wooden spoons and shoes. And and I don’t know why. And I don’t you know, there’s nothing that would excuse that behavior. But I can’t I I’ve just attributed it to, they were sick, not not necessarily something that I had done. That’s right. I remember being so excited to go back to California, just because I don’t I don’t remember most of it. But my parents and I have talked about it a little bit. And they they don’t know what happened either. But they knew that I came back different. Whoa. Oh, and tell me the age that you were seven. I turned eight that summer. Oh man, that’s awful. But it was my goal. I didn’t know what a civilian was until I was eight years old, old because my parents were military. And I didn’t know that. Everybody didn’t have a mentally handicapped sibling because we moved somewhere. But I didn’t really form attachments. And so it’s that thing. I didn’t know that grandparents were different. Hmm. So. So, um, so the next big thing that I remember from them was, when I was about 12, my grandmother came down and she gave me the sex talk, which began when all men will rape you. And then she proceeded to tell me the horrible things that men would do to you. Oh, my goodness. And then she walked me up the stairs, told my mom what she had done, about the discussion. And then it was never spoken of again, my mom never followed up with me, never said, What the heck is going on with this. And so that made the touch issues worse. And talking with my counselor about it. It’s been one of those things of because it wasn’t discussed. It was made shameful, which made a horse and, and I realized that now, but again, it was my normal. I didn’t know any differently. Oh, my gosh, and and how old? Were you at that point about 1211? Or about 12? Wow. And that was the sex talk that all men are gonna rape you. And this is the same grandmother that had, you know, been part of this abuse before? Yeah. So it’s just the things you don’t think of about? You just assume that this is this is the way everyone thinks about sex, that they’re scared out of their wits of men? I mean, is that what happened? Do you remember how you looked at men differently after that conversation? Well, I didn’t have any sort of a dating anything until college. Afraid? Yeah. So I think and looking back on it, now I can see signs of anxiety. And I can see signs of depression all the way through. Wow. So just that’s interesting. Well, and and that anxiety that kind of did it? Do you think that it just increased? Oh, yes. Throughout that? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that and the lack of stability. I never was able to develop long friendships. You know, some people as my husband can what drive around this town that we live in and say, Oh, my grandpa’s office used to be here 50 years ago, or, you know, I I’ve lived in the same house until I moved out. I did not have that I was in 12 different school districts growing up. So. Yep. And that’s again, it just goes back to my normal, huh? Sure. Sure. Yeah. Well, and so then, after kind of beginning to date in high school, I mean, college, it was college. I mean, what was that? Like? Yeah,

12:40
I dated one guy for like two weeks, and then dated who became my husband? Oh, oh, well, that’s fortunate. Probably wouldn’t have happened. Otherwise, praise God for that. So. And my parents, I was about 15. They sent me to see a counselor because I was becoming more and more withdrawn. severe anxiety when my grandparents would come to the visit. I just all this other stuff. So they sent me to this counselor. But number one, they never asked me about it. And I was slightly stubborn as a 15 year old. And by slightly, I mean, extremely. So they, I just fought it the whole way. And so basically, the counselor after a couple of sessions, he did some testing with me. Oh, yeah. When it was a guy and I was a 15 year old girl, and I was not comfortable. But he he basically told him she hates grandparents don’t make her see them. Okay, and I never had to after that, until they moved. So nearby. Yeah, were you guys friends? Okay. Yeah. So it’s just, yeah, it’s again, it was just my normal. And then I had actually started doing self harm behaviors around that time, I was doing eraser burns all over my, like, my arms in my hands. I still have some of the scars of them. And then I would lie. If and when my parents parents asked about them. I was really good at hiding it. I think most people who who do the self injury are so yeah, so they had no idea. Oh, they still don’t. Wow. Yeah, anxiety, but they don’t know how bad it was. Wow. And this started when you were 15. Or before that. I remember anxiety as young as five. Yeah, but it got really really bad as I was in high school. And there was one time I was I did something and I smacked my head really hard on something that my mom saw it and she reached out to like comfort and I remember screaming Don’t you dare touch me. And so that was I think the first time they realized how bad the touch issues were getting. Wow. Get I was on My church retreat with my, with my church and he’s an assistant lead pastor. And it’s actually his love languages to his touch, you know, his physical touches his primary love language and, and if anyone hasn’t heard of The Five Love Languages, it’s it’s a great book I’ll have it linked up in the show notes. But anyway, that’s how he feels loved. So he will he’s just a very huggy person not in any kind of an inappropriate it’s a very kind and generous thing. But it’s interesting that that kind of love language to you would be like terror and just not okay because of where you came from. I mean, clearly there’s reason for it. So that’s, that’s really important to kind of recognize and hear. So I’m interested know, how has that played into your marriage? I mean, how have you been able to kind of work through this stuff? Ironically, ironically, hubby’s primary love languages touch. Oh, there you go. Okay, there you go on it. Uh huh. My husband told me about a website called blazing grace, which is a website for Christian men who are dealing with pornography addiction. Yeah. And I remember the date. I remember being absolutely shocked. I knew that I had problems. Because it’s, it’s been hard. That’s been one area that’s been really, really hard for me is the intimacy factor. Yeah. And so I I remember crying myself to sleep that night. And, and feeling like this was all my fault. And I can say now that it’s irrational, but it still comes up. So yeah. And then he had told me that sometimes, like, on nights that we had had sex, he would go and wait for me to fall asleep. So he could go use porn. Oh, Cara. And so it?

16:52
Yeah, I thought about leaving. I’ll be really honest. I thought about leaving. But my oldest daughter was about six at the time. And the youngest was, had just turned two. And I knew I knew if I left, I wouldn’t see my eldest again. Yeah, and I knew my two year old needed me to fight for her. Wow. So I told Hubby, he had to go to counseling. Yeah, and hubby put covenant eyes on the computer. Okay. And then it was probably seven or eight months before I would even consider having sex with him again. And then I remember the first time we did he said thank you afterwards. And I felt like a whore. I was like, why don’t you just leave money on the nightstand because that was the reaction that I felt. So it’s just been that’s been kind of a whirlwind. So we would go up to up in the mountains. And we would go with his sister and her girls. And we would and then his parents will go up. We’d spend the weekend up there a long weekend. And so I remember talking to hubby sister about this over that time and working out a lot of stuff in my head with her. So I decided to use some of our health benefits and go see a counselor. Great. And on the second visit, have you went in with me. And this counselor actually told me that there was nothing she could do for me until he got fixed, which was frustrating. So have you started going to some 12 Step programs. Okay, so he found Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous because it later we figured out that it was like pornography and codependent relationships, but that’s the group where he felt most comfortable. And okay, and the group where he felt like it was helping him the most. Oh, awesome. And so, but he would every come every couple of months, he would come and tell me Oh, I screwed up again. And so I didn’t know if that meant he had viewed porn again. And like he had figured out a way to turn off the CEE on the computers. Or if he had just gone through the visual Rolodex that’s still in his head that is impossible to get rid of, unless you pray and and masturbate. So I didn’t know. I didn’t know what he was doing. I didn’t ask because it was hard enough. Of course, well, of course. And can I just ask a couple questions about what you’ve stored. It’s just so painful and heart wrenching, but it’s just going to help so many people. So thank you. So when you first found out when your kids were, you know, two and six, what was kind of the process of the plan was basically he needs to do counseling, and then you’ll think about revisiting sexual intimacy. Is that how it kind of played out? It just ended up being more of this is what you need to do in order for me to stay? Okay, yeah. And he at one point came to me and basically said, Are we ever going to have sex again? And I just looked at him and said, I don’t know. Yeah, so, so painful. And tell me I mean, there are men that listen to this. So this is geared for women. But what were the emotions that you were going through? When you found this out? Can you share some of that, I think it would be the equivalent to someone going into shock, like literally going into shock. It triggered a huge anxiety attack. And I didn’t trust anyone, not just him. But I didn’t trust anyone for a long time, because everyone I’ve ever trusted ends up hurting me. And that has more to do with the human factor of things, rather. And you know, I can look back at things and say, there, it wasn’t intentional. But every person disappointed me or hurt me somehow, whether it was physically or emotionally. Sure. Yeah. And how do you of course, how do you safeguard yourself against that? Well, you just don’t let anyone close. Right? Right. And that’s exactly what the enemy wants is for us to all isolate ourselves. Never trust again, and be a ball of mess, which, you know, God can’t use. So. Okay, so here’s the question then. So how did things kind of I mean, how have you come through this? What was the process? So he started going to the Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, and I’m going to link those things up in the show notes for sure. Because these are huge resources. What happened next? Well, we found out that my younger daughter needs to be tested for Asperger’s Syndrome. A couple days later, I was released from my job of eight years. Oh, man. And then the next day, we got a call that my oldest daughter who was my stepdaughter had been sexually abused by her stepfather. Oh my gosh.

21:56
So that was about the worst week of my life. Between everything that was happening with my girls. Wow. Okay, so So how did you who called you I mean, how did this even happen? She, my oldest daughter, who was 12, at the time, sent a text to her best friend saying, I don’t feel safe when I’m at my mom’s. And her friend’s father is a police officer in our city. Called it in and then another police officer showed up at Lily’s mom’s house and really told her mom, so and the mom didn’t know Lily’s mom didn’t know No. Well, she says she didn’t. I personally I go back and forth between how could you not, but it’s, it’s just been one of those tents, not comfortable situations. So then, the police got involved. And thankfully, he realized a dangerous situation, and then came to Lily’s mom’s house, received Lily and took her to the police station or something or took her to your house. No. Lily at Lily’s mom called my husband and said we need to meet here and told him what was going on. He and Lily’s mom and Lily went to the local police station where they tried to make a report and they wouldn’t accept it. Which baffled me at the time why they wouldn’t accept her making a report. And we found out later from the prosecuting attorney, that it’s because they wanted to hear the story from her first they didn’t want it to go through the police. They wanted to the prosecuting attorney to hear it first. So it was like nine o’clock on a Friday night when they were trying to do this. So So Lily came home with my husband that day we put extra because she was supposed to stay with her mom for a couple of extra days because her mom celebrates you’ll because she’s Wiccan and we celebrate Christmas because we’re Christian. So it’s in trying to work with the different families. Lily was supposed to stay there for a couple more days. We have a week on week off so she’s with us for a week and then she’s with her mom for a week. Okay, so Lily came home, she we put extra locks on her window. We put some safety put things in place like she wasn’t allowed to answer the door or she wasn’t allowed to answer the phone. She wasn’t allowed to get into her email. And a couple days later, she changed her email password because we all knew it as the parents we all knew for sure. And then we also put a baseball bat by the front door. And then also that night I called Child Protection to make sure that there was some sort of a record of what had done to her been done to her. Yeah, and I actually felt an enormous amount of guilt, because in trying to keep her safe the week before I had told her I said, Honey, one in four girls are abused. So between you and your sister and your two cousins, it could be one of you. Wow. You had told her that the week before? Yeah. But well, so was she. Just so was it a one time thing? It was sexual abuse. One time we think it was a repeated. We think it’s he started grooming her when he married her mom when she was four. Oh, my gosh. And so repeated. Yeah. Okay. So had you not shared that statistic? She might not have had the courage to even share anything with anybody potentially. That’s what my counselor said. I absolutely agree with that. Absolutely. Oh, my God, there’s a lot of unfulfilled years. I mean, years for this young lady, my faders, eight years for that little girl. Oh, my gosh. I’m so sorry, Karen next. So she the next few weeks were a blur. I couldn’t look at her without crying.

26:15
And so just every time I would see her, I would, I would think, Oh my gosh, exactly what my grandmother told me what happened did oh, camera. So it’s, it was just, I can’t, I can’t anymore. And so I made an appointment to see a counselor, which was a different counselor than the one I went to. And so I I went in and took a couple of sessions to tell her everything that had happened with with my husband’s job he he’s terrified of someone finding out about his addiction, even though he hasn’t used in a long time. He’s still afraid because it’s pornography. And so we don’t talk about it. We don’t Oh, I mean, that’s the issue. Right, Karen? Yeah. I mean, it’s just the biggest lie. The enemy has fed everyone. I mean, no, I mean, basically, any woman that’s listening, if your husband is breathing, he has seen porn, and probably used many times, which is horrifying, but it’s true. And the problem is we act like it’s not happening when it’s happening all around us all the time. And I just am thankful that you’re willing to share so bravely, Karen, because this is a huge, huge, huge thing that the enemy doesn’t want us to bring to light. You know, I know that’s its power. I truly am going, please. Yeah, I truly know. So I, I didn’t tell her everything. At first, I didn’t tell her about the husband piece. Until I had a chance to go to him and say, I need to talk about this. Because and that’s kind of what we’ve done is the people that know, we’ve talked about it before we’ve told them. Okay, so it’s not like I’m advertising from the billboards or anything like that. It’s been very specific people that know. Yeah, um, and what was Lily kind of going through? Since then, like, what is her journey been since this happened? You know, she started having problems in school, probably three years before, two or three years before when she was about 10. She was just being openly defiant in school, which is not her nature. But this child is doing absolutely amazing now has completely turned everything around. She’s studying on her own. She’s doing her homework on her own. She’s doing her chores on her own without being mad and asked. She, she, she gets it now and she has found her motivation. Wow. And, gosh, I have so many questions. Okay, so here’s the first thing is so I just know so many stories where there’s been molestation where there’s been sexual abuse, and, you know, maybe the abuse gets stopped, but it’s never processed. It’s never talked about. How do you find words? I mean, what are some phrases that can help people start to bring these conversations to light? I think it goes back to making it not normal. Okay, I think it goes back to, to making sure that they know that that’s not what life is supposed to be, especially in kids. Kids are so trusting. And yeah, and to make sure that they understand that the adults that are in their life are there to protect them. Okay, and not to hurt them. You know, we can talk to them and and we talk about consequences versus punishment at my house. Punishment is about making you hurt because of my anger. And a consequence, it’s about changing your actions so you don’t do it again. And so that’s That’s really big at our house. And and once we found out what had happened with Lily, we made sure that she knew that he would be receiving a consequence because of his actions, not because of anything she had done. I didn’t want her to feel responsible for that at all, because she still has to go and see her mom. She has to look at the faces of her brother and sister at her mom’s house and know that they came from that man. Oh, wow. Yeah, they have to she has to live with that. Yeah. And so and so this, this, the abuse being not normal is talking to a person or child who has been abused. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. And you know, with your kids, even with your son, you said, he’s almost two, you start talking about good touch, bad touch, secret touch. Or doing that you can start saying, honey, if anybody does this, you need to tell mommy, or you need to tell daddy, because this is not normal.

30:59
You know, it’s safe with mommy and daddy, if the doctor needs to look at your penis. However, it’s not okay with other people. You make sure mommy and daddy know, and making sure that they know that they can come to you. I mean, that’s the biggest thing with Lilly is and part of my guilt is she felt that she couldn’t come to me. What she did was normal. And I need to let that go. I need to release guilt. That’s right. That’s right. That’s so true. And I mean, thank God for what has happened through, you know, through you through being willing to share some uncomfortable things. And and again, how many people you can help and get out of the situations that they’re in and raise the alarm bell? Because that’s the thing, one in four. That’s an applet. Whew. That’s what reported. So in actuality, it’s more like one in three in this state. I don’t know. I don’t know about where you are. I don’t know the stats in New York. So no, it’s I mean, it’s, I think it’s nationwide, that’s one in four. And there’s a resource called No more.org That actually is specifically focused on ending domestic violence and sexual abuse in relationships. But I think it also is talking about abuse in children as well. So that’s it. That’s a resource I have linked up. But this is very horrific stuff. But also just importance now as a wife, right, it two things I want to ask you. One is, you know, if you could tell other mothers that are reeling from this, of their child, either finding out that this happened or have a suspicion that it’s happened. I mean, what kind of advice can you give them? Get help? Don’t, don’t keep it a secret don’t make the shame worse. Amen. You’ve got to go and talk to somebody and counselors are bound by HIPAA. You know, it’s not like, they’re just going to go and talk to their friends and say, Oh, this is what happened with my client today. She’s super crazy. If there’s a legitimate concern, they, they have to report it, they are mandated reporters, and then it’s up to the state to investigate. However, if you, you got to talk about it, and then that person can help you process and make sure your thoughts are rational. Because when you think your baby’s getting hurt, you are not rational. Oh, my gosh, I can’t even imagine. Yeah. And then the other question would be, you know, how has all of this so we’ve got the, you know, the hubby peace, we’ve got the, you know, this horror? I mean, how have things kind of transpired to, you know, bring you to at a place where you are still married? I mean, what’s happened since then? Not all marriages survive. Absolutely not. No. I, I did go to see a counselor. And I, and I worked with that counselor for 15 months, she was absolutely amazing. I tried a lot of different things. I’ll be really, really honest. I went on to an anti anxiety medication. And, and it didn’t work. That’s the thing is it didn’t work. And it made me suicidal, and it made me all I wanted to do was just take all of those pills she had given me. But my counselor looked me straight in the face and said, I can’t fix your youngest daughter. If you do this. It’s incredibly selfish, and I can’t fix her. Wow. So I also started going to a car program to celebrate recovery at a local church. Oh, and a friend had invited me to come hear her testimony. And she also deals with anxiety and depression. And I had never heard someone else in the church talk about it before. Wow. And she was talking about how she had been suicidal and how she had had these panic attacks and, and what it was like to go through them and, and it was just like, oh my gosh, I’m listening to part of my own story here. I totally get that. And also during this time, we found out that my thyroid levels were off. And I’ve been pretty steady at a level. But with everything with all the anxiety and the stress, my levels were just off. And you probably know, the thyroid controls all the hormones in your body. And so when that is off, especially for a woman, and especially going through trauma, it’s just like a pooch screw combination, it is just awful. And so I wanted to sleep all the time. I mean, it was symptoms of manic depression, of of wanting to sleep, wanting to isolate, being in dark rooms, never having the motivation to get up and doing the things that I liked to do not even be able to get up and cook dinner for my family. It I just couldn’t, I physically couldn’t. And for someone who’s never gone through depression, and they just say, Oh, just be happy. I Ragam I want to pray in the face. It’s not that simple. It is nowhere near that simple.

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And so the good news is, she also found a different antidepressant, anti anxiety that works this time, and my levels are finally normal. So the medication has been a huge support, I work, I work at a job where I understand medications, and I know especially psych medications, it takes six, eight weeks for them to really get into your system and do something. And so it’s the waiting process stinks. But between different coping skills that your counselor can give you dealing with the issues actually feeling those sinking emotions, and my counselor is going to laugh, because I’m totally going to let her listen to this. And feeling it and getting rid of it. Yeah, huge. Yeah. And it’s the only way. Yeah, yes. It’s, like release it. And my coping technique for the first 35 years of my life has been like stuff and repress. Right. But throughout everything, especially with the abuse that Lily went through, right. Intimacy was a huge problem for for what you came from. Absolutely. I mean, and worse than that. I mean, it’s to satisfy you know, abusers, desires. I mean, it’s horrible. It’s horrible, the perspectives that you came into, not only came into marriage, but then had to suffer through. Yeah, well, and it goes back into the secrets or shame thing. Because everything was, was so secretive, and we didn’t talk about stuff, ate it shameful. And so by never having hearing anything that would contradict it. Right? It was my normal. Right? Right. So I mean, as as uncomfortable as it is to, you know, tell your kids by the way, mommy and daddy had sex. And that’s how you got here. Ready to do it? I think that’s right. I think Dobson has a series about talking to your kids about sex. And he starts with these books. And there’s like a set of four books. So between a, just three and five, you start reading like a where I came from Book, which has basics, it doesn’t go into details, but it has these specific age group things. And then at like age 11 or 12, whenever they’re emotionally ready, you tell him everything, you know, but I actually had that discussion with my daughter probably a couple of months ago, because I didn’t want her to hear about it on the playground. I want her to hear the first time I wanted her to hear it from me. And she does not know what happened to her sister. All she knows is that her sister got hurt. And that this is the younger one. Yeah, okay. Yeah. She knows her sister got hurt. And yeah, and that we’re doing everything we can to help her. Yeah. And that’s really all she needs to know, at this. I mean, even when we told her that Lily got hurt, she started crying, because she’s so adores her sister. No. Um, and so how are things progressed with your husband in terms of like, has he been able to hear you and been able to understand? He’s actually been really good throughout this whole thing? Because I, you know, I knew that we had problems in this area from the time I got married, you know? Yeah. My sex education other than from my grandparents came from the movies, of course, and how horrible Yeah, and we say, Oh, the women love it. They’re turned on instantly. And it’s crazy. And it’s fast. That’s the other thing, right? The whole thing is just insane. It’s just a crazy thing. It’s ridiculous. It’s ridiculous. It’s not true. And then, you know, the men have their sexual education through porn. So they think they’re not even supposed to touch the woman because they’re, you know, in pornography. The man’s hands are away from his I saw a talk on this anyway. But I’ll have it linked up in the show notes. It’s but anyway, the the men think that they’re not supposed to actually touch their partner they think it’s all about penetration. It’s all about the inserting announcer I mean, it’s all it’s just completely crap our sexual education in this country and actually in the world because we’re shipping this horror all over the world. So anyway, I know. So America, so yeah, I mean, God willing, he’s changing things. Thank God, there’s, you know, there’s ministries that are changing things, but we have to, you know, people like you that are have the courage to be able to say, This is wrong. This is absolutely enough. So please keep going. So your sexual education. So how that is infected? That’s exactly there you go. There’s the disease. There you go. Right. Yep. Yep.

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Um, and keep going. And so my wedding night was not bells, whistles and fireworks. Right. And so, you know, I was very normal. I know that now. But yeah, right. And so I was, I was just thinking, what’s wrong with me? There’s something wrong with me, there’s something wrong with me. And, and, and again, that was my normal, because I didn’t talk about it. And that’s, that’s on me. So well, but that’s also normal not to talk about it. I mean, yeah, you know, you’re revolutionary to share these things. You know, that’s huge, that you’re willing to share that because most people think, even if you waited until marriage, all of a sudden, it’s going to be brilliant. So, but please continue. So so how did things kind of shift? I mean, so, you know, really uncomfortable, and you felt like you were doing something wrong the whole time? Is that how it went? Yeah. Okay, because there was something wrong with me, because all these other women enjoy it, but I don’t write clearly on the movie. Yeah, um, it’s. So it’s, I think the biggest thing that helped was one, my counselor reaffirming what I like she, she validated my feelings, and then said, let’s fix it. And so and then she basically told my husband to pull his head out of his butt and fix things because she said, You can’t keep doing the screw ups. Okay, if you want her to get better, you have to fix you. Interest, she can fix her, you fix you. And you can’t do this anymore. You need to buck up. Okay, he didn’t like that very much. And he didn’t want to go back to her after that. Because he’s like, I’d get picked on the whole time. I’m in there. I’m like, Well, tell me you didn’t deserve that. And he had told me the last time he told me he screwed up was last year. Yeah. So. And then. So I obviously the counseling worked quite a bit. But I also found the Sheila reg reg wires blog, the to love, honor and vacuum. Oh, yeah. And she had an article that she had written the trauma on a husband’s porn use and the eight steps of dealing with it. Awesome. And I had gone through every one of those steps that she talks about. And it in her blog has been, it was it was that first inkling of I’m not alone. I’m not alone in these feelings. And I’m not alone in this reaction. I haven’t found I’ve been bouncing around on the blog sites. I’ve looked at hot holy and humorous and intimacy and marriage. virtuous woman exposed it. It was really the the Gregoire site that that made it real. And so I, you know, went through and looked through a bunch of her old posts and sent them to Hubby, you need to read this and you need to read it. And he’s like, I can’t read these at work. I said, I didn’t ask you to read them at work. I just said you need to read them. Yeah, you know, having those cite those articles up on his computer at work is probably not going to be a good thing. Yeah, no, I hear it. Well, I mean, I’m grateful for his kind of attitude through through this because I know I think maybe some women are listening and literally I just spoke to a woman who’s who just two days ago, she was telling me she had five, five sons with this, this husband that was addicted to pornography, and she had to leave him because it just wasn’t he wasn’t stopping. And it’s just so so hard and so so sad and and they it just has to be talked about and has to be you know, dealt with head on. Well, thank you for engaging in that. I mean, Karen story is difficult and I don’t know if you have if you can relate to her story at all. A couple things I want to pull out from her story is one, she went to resources, she was able to,

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you know, be open with people that were safe and trust. trustworthy, she found counselors, she found recovery groups, she found blogs, all of these things are linked up actually, in our show notes to light, your marriage.com/ 31. There’s just so much there. But she didn’t continue to suffer in silence. She wasn’t willing to let her children suffer in silence, she wasn’t willing to also let her own ignorance of sexual realities or the sexual education that she should have had as a child, you know, that she gives some great ideas for for parents to teach their own kids. But she didn’t just roll over and play dead. It’s not her response. And also, I just wanted to point out that she’s still on a journey, just like all of us where we can continue to learn, we can continue to grow. And she was kind enough to actually join me on a couple of the webinars. And she’s had great feedback. And because she’s willing to continue her journey, step by step day by day, and I just encourage you, you know, my coach recently told me Join the journey. And I just love that phrase, because that’s exactly what we’re doing here. We’re all on a journey, that I’m very proud of her and thrilled to bring you her brave story. And of course, the second half is going to be episode 32. But I just want to encourage you that if you have had similar experiences, one, you’re not alone, you’re not alone, one in four. And actually next week, we’re going to hear from a doctor who specifically researches all about sexual abuse and rape mentality and why our culture is really screwed up in this area. So I want you to absolutely tune into that. That’s brilliant stuff. Thank you so much for engaging here and you don’t have to feel ashamed, just because it’s a secret, find trustworthy people and, and bring this stuff to light because that’s exactly what God wants for you. God bless you. I love you and we’ll talk soon.

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Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion