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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Dr. Jessica McCleese, of enhancingthedance.com a psychologist, sex therapist, and studying Christian sex educator who focuses on helping Christian couples improve intimacy in their marriage. In this episode, first she talks about how she has battled the pain of infertility. Then, she shares how she had gone through so much sexual abuse in her teen years and how this past experience has led her to become a withdrawn wife in the bedroom. She talks about how she always felt used during sex, and even throughout the marriage. You can beat the past too and become whole again after sexual abuse. Dr. McCleese tells us that it’s not the end, and we can keep moving forward because that is what God wants us to do—to move on and delight in the marriage he has blessed us with. Listen in as Dr. McCleese shares her tips and advices in overcoming your past and understanding that there is indeed life after sexual abuse.

 

Scripture/Quote:

“Wait for the LORD; be strong and take heart and wait for the LORD.” Psalm 24:17

“For he wounds, but he also binds up; he injures, but his hands also heal.” Job 5:18

 

You’ll Discover:

• How Dr. McCleese  was sexually abused as a teenager and had no idea that what happened was actually rape
• How this sexual therapist started her professional journey on a more personal journey to understand her own abuse
• How you are connecting NOT just to the physical, but the WHOLE person: spirit, body & soul
• How it was very difficult for her to acknowledge wasn’t her fault
• How you can feel loved in sex even if you were abused originally
• The struggles she had to go through during the first year of marriage, arising from the baggage of a negative past she was carrying
• How she considered herself as sexually broken and how God helped her pick up the pieces and become whole again.
• I finally had a realization after sexual intimacy that we are one, and this is what God designed.
• About our society, if a woman seems to enjoy sex or talks about it, she’s given these ugly and derogatory names.
• Why God designed the clitoris and what that means about a woman’s drive
• How we need take a moment out of our busy lives and just sit back and know that God is moving
• That it is perfectly alright to keep moving even while waiting for the promises of God

 

 

Books & Resources Mentioned:

Song of Solomon by Tori Morrison

8 Secrets for Wives To Enjoy Making Love & STAY PRESENT! by Belah Rose

Tweetables:

• It’s amazing how blind we can be to what God wants for us because our own brokenness
• I’ve just gotta learn to sit back and just wait, sometimes, for God to do things that I believe he’s promised me
• As women, we are  told how we take too much; but sometimes it is just part of who we are.
• You dont have to be a problem solver; sometimes just listening is enough.
• It took me a long time to realize that [being abused] was not my fault.
• I had this belief that sex was for him and not for me.
• I had to completely re-train myself at what I thought sex meant and what I thought sex was to what it should be and could be in marriage.
• It took me a while to say the word rape and acknowledge that I was raped.
• I felt like God was calling me to help those who are sexually broken.
• God loves us so much, even when it just feels really broken.
• God absolutely designed us in such a way where we’re supposed to experience pleasure, and we should not be ashamed of that.
• If you’re focused on believing the lie that sex is not for you, then absolutely it’s not going to be for you. If you’re not going to enjoy it, it’s going to be painful.
• Talk to your husband. Tell him what you like. Tell him what he’s doing that feels really good.
• If you’re starting to be intimate and you think about past trauma, then give it to God. Talk to Him.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

 

Love,

Belah

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Transcript

0:00
delight your marriage episode 35.

0:04
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, the show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:21
Hey there, and welcome. Thank you so much for joining me today. This is belah rose. And I hope that you are just enjoying your day and thinking about what God has given you today, whether it’s the clothes in your back, the fact that you ate breakfast, or maybe at least dinner the night before, the fact that you can look up and see the beautiful sky, I mean, God is blessing you. And I just want to encourage you to think about how to be grateful for him today. Now, before we get any further, I want to make sure that you are signed up to go to my live a free webinar with me happening on June 9, just around the corner at 8pm. Make sure that you are there Eastern Standard Time, it is called How to make him wild for you the five secrets to receive love and passion and God’s plan, I’m going to really dial down and give you the keys that I believe God really wants women in marriages to know and the last webinar my husband actually attended, I usually just close it off to only wives. And he was so kind to share with me afterwards that it made a huge impact on him. And he said that, it seems like you’re a man, but you have a woman’s voice. So that’s pretty encouraging that it sounds like I’m getting it right. And I do believe that God has been so generous in my marriage. And I really share those keys. And the last couple webinars I’ve had wives that literally have been married a woman reached out to me 44 years and she said she still learned something. And another wife said that literally her intimacy was different that night, someone else reached out to me, and specifically said that, using my advice that her husband said, you can have anything that you want, at least for a while. So I would love to have you is free. And it’s also very easy. If you’ve never been on a webinar, you just sign up, delight your marriage.com/webinar. And then I will send you all the information to get on there, easy peasy. But it will be live and is already changing marriages by God’s grace. So please join me there. I want to dive into Dr. Jessica macneice’s information because she’s not only a sex therapist, a psychologist, but also she’s become a friend. And she has got some wonderful insights coming from her background of absolute injustice and abuse that she shares. And then the process she went through with God to understand what sexuality truly is about as she’s become a psychologist and sex therapist. But she has got really kind, honest truth she’s giving from her own life and her own story as well. So let’s listen in

3:26
All right, well, welcome back to let your marriage listener I am really glad that you’re joining me today. I’ve got a special guest with me. Jessica mcleese. Actually, Dr. Jessica mcleese. Hi, Jessica. How are you doing today?

3:38
I’m doing good. Thanks so much for having me.

3:42
Oh, absolutely. I’m really looking forward to this. And, and just going I actually chatted a couple weeks back was it maybe even a month ago. And we got a chance to connect and talk about each other’s businesses and dreams. And Jessica’s just got a great heart for helping people in sex education. And would you go ahead and introduce yourself fully Jessica?

4:01
Sure. Thank you. Well, I’m a psychologist. So that’s kind of, I guess, my primary description of myself. And right now I’m in Texas, but actually, by the time this airs, I will be on the road to Virginia. So I’m relocating pretty much right now as we speak in the packing process and, and getting ready for that. But I am a psychologist. So that’s that’s most of what I do. But the other thing I’ve done outside of psychology is pursue my certification as a Christian sex therapist. So I’m actually most of the way through that process, but still working on it. So I am allowed to use the title sex therapist. I’m not certified yet. So I’m still working on that part. And I’m also a Christian sex educator. So I work with several different programs and we’ve got a program and I say we because I’m part of a team. But we’ve got a program that we do together for teenagers that we’re building right now that we’re just really excited about. We have one for couples, one for singles. There’s one for men that I’m actually certified in, but I don’t use it much because it’s really just better taught by a man. And then there’s several other in the works that we’re building on and working on. So I’m part of a really great group of people and a great team that I just love being a part of.

5:17
That’s awesome. Yeah, it sounds like you have a lot going on, especially right now. So Oh, yeah. Well, tell me a little bit about your family and what your day to day life looks like if you could

5:27
share. And well, I have a husband, and we’ve been married, we’re coming up on six years in July. And so then exciting, and no, not yet. We do hope for kids. But we do have two rambunctious puppies, which is quite a bit bigger than she was supposed to be. Actually got them both as rescue dogs. And when we picked up, Maya, she’s our big girl. And we picked her up, she weighed about four and a half pounds. She’s now about 60 some odd pounds, and Josh turned a year old yet and oh my god, her calls are as big as my hands. So I don’t know, oh, my goodness, I’m going to get, but they told us she was a beagle. And they were wrong, for sure. So we’ve got our puppies. My husband just graduated this this last weekend with his master’s degree in Literature and Composition. And he’s going to be pursuing more education. So he’s going to be going on towards his doctorate as we move to Virginia. And he’ll be teaching. So we are a busy little couple. And day in and day out. We are just really busy. That’s life. Luckily, this is the part of the semester where for him things slow down. So he gets a little more free time now. And because I am wrapping things up at work and getting ready to move, I’ve got a little more free time, we will be spending a lot of it moving, but we will get to actually play a little too, which is kind of fun.

6:52
Oh, I’m glad to hear that. Yeah. Well, congratulations that you made it through his semester. Yeah, that’s also well, actually, not just a semester, but this whole master’s program. That’s awesome.

7:04
Yeah, he went through it really quickly. He’s pretty determined in a speedy worker. So he went through it more quickly than most would and we are just in transitioning kind of couple and do a lot of stuff.

7:18
Well, and that’s kind of the next question, I wanted to ask a little bit about your personality and a little bit about his personality, sure,

7:23
and where Believe it or not both pretty big introverts. And actually, I’ve heard it described now as Andrew avert, when you have part of an extrovert personality and part of introvert, you kind of go back and forth between the two. And that’s more what I would say I am I’m kind of a little of both. Whatever the situation dictates at the time, I can usually do. My husband’s definitely more of an introvert. And he’s also a teacher with junior high kids. So you can imagine that is stressful and difficult for him. Yeah, no, it’s very fulfilling. So you probably if you see us, we are not going to see us at a big get together. We’re doing a lot of that. Now, actually, because we’re moving and people want to hang out. We’re definitely more the type to sit back at a bookstore, or go to a movie together, restaurant, but we’re just not big on big crowds, which is a little bit different than some of my family. So get togethers can be tough. So we make it happen. But we really were more introverts. And we enjoy kind of quiet time and thinking a little more deeply and just talking with one another. And so it’s it’s hard on making friendships, but it’s been good for us for our Connecting time.

8:39
Yeah, that’s interesting. So you’re both kind of analytical and you like to read and you connect on that

8:44
level? Most definitely. Oh, that’s and actually the reading for a long time I was I was so built into the psychology reading just because that’s all I had, and all I could do while working on my degree. So it’s been more recently that I’ve been outside of that and looking at other books, and I definitely think my, or thank my husband for that, because that’s his world is reading. And so he’s introduced me to a lot of different books that way.

9:09
Oh, wow. Yeah, that’s great. Well, could you share a quote or a scripture that’s meant a lot to you over the years dealing with your marriage? Sure.

9:17
You know what, I actually have one that’s meant a lot to me over the last few months. And it comes out of Psalm 2714. And it says, wait on the Lord, be strong, and take heart and wait on the Lord. And what I love about this is as I studied it more I found out that there’s two different types of weight being used in that Scripture. And so one of them is the waiting that we kind of know what it means in general, the kind of sitting back and holding on and letting God move, I guess, giving him control. And the other part of the waiting is more of that busyness. It’s kind of like the waiter or the waitress we do at a restaurant, the taking orders and doing what you need to do and fulfilling whatever the command is. So it’s been helpful for me because like I said before, we’re so busy, we’re so busy. And somehow in that busyness has got to learn to sit back and just wait sometimes for God to do things that I believe he’s promised me and things that I’ve been waiting for him to do. And I just have to kind of sit back and wait. But while I wait, it’s okay to be moving. And it’s okay to move ahead. And and I think as women sometimes we’re told how we take on too much. And I think sometimes we do. But I think at other times, it’s just part of who we are in the multitasking and wearing lots of hats. And we can feel a little bit guilty sometimes when we do that for a while. And but I think it’s okay, I think it’s okay to try to find that balance and wait on the Lord, and also do these other tasks and things that we’re supposed to be busy at.

10:50
Oh, I really like that. I’m gonna, I’m gonna be meditating on that scripture. Thank you for sharing that those two different kinds of waiting. I like that a lot. That’s really great. Well, okay, well, this might really tie into the story I know that you’ve been preparing to share, could you go ahead and share a difficult season of struggle in your marriage with our listeners?

11:09
Sure. You know, it’s funny, because I think the one I was originally going to share with you that we talked about a little bit of change, but I’m actually going to share both, because I kind of brought that up. So part of the waiting that that we’ve been in a part of our season is waiting for a baby. And so we’ve been struggling with infertility. I guess depending on which one of us you ask, the answer might be different. But for for a long time, we wanted to have a child and we’ve just found that is not happening yet for us. Now, of course, the good Christian side of us can look at all the reasons why that’s probably positive right now. We’re moving. So being pregnant would probably be really tough while moving. When we try to look at our situation, as you know, we’re living in an apartment we don’t love. So it’s okay. But the truth is, it’s hard. And it’s it’s broken our hearts many times over. And we’ve both had the unfortunate real lives realization from others of unwanted pregnancies that they’ve gone through. And, and so that, to hear those stories of people getting pregnant, and maybe not wanting to friends that have gotten pregnant without ever trying, though, they’ll tell us things like oh, yeah, we decided to get off birth control, and I just never had another cycle. And sometimes do hear those things. Good Christian advice that people give us is so hard. And really, that is definitely part of why that scripture has been so meaningful to me. Because part of what we’ve done is we’re working on our health, and we’re eating really well. And we’re taking care of ourselves and going to the gym, and all these things. And and in my own schedule, I’m trying to release some of the busyness I do have, and trying to change things. So I’m trying to get myself prepared. And at the same time, just kind of wait and let God give me this gift that I believe he’s really got for me. So that’s been that’s been part of that struggle.

13:06
Yeah, yeah. And do you mind sharing, when you say the good Christian advice that probably well intentioned people have given? Could you share a little bit more about that?

13:15
Sure. Sure. Well, one of the things I’ve heard before is, well, if it’s God’s will, it’ll happen. And, and that’s a little sad. And I know people don’t mean it in a horrible way, but that it can be tested because because what I hear when that is said is Well, right now, it’s not God’s will for you. And I don’t think that’s true. I think sometimes we get wrapped up in believing if something good is happening, then it’s God’s will. And if something bad has happened, either it’s not God’s will right now. Or there’s some kind of fight that the enemy has is going through. And you know, in reality, I think, gosh, we live in a fallen world and things don’t happen the way they’re supposed to. But we’ve had God’s grace, and God loves us so much. And even when it just feels really broken, and it feels like God’s so far away, or we’re waiting so long. And he still has his hand on this. And I, you know, I can’t explain why things are happening, the way they’re happening. I can try to look at the positive and see the good in it. But the truth is, I don’t know. I don’t know why it’s happening. But I don’t believe it’s out of God’s will for us to have a kid. Right. And one of the others I was given, and again, I know it wasn’t meant ugly in any way at all, but one of the others I was given was that. That is how was it said to me, it was said, God opens and closes the womb. And I was told pray in your room. But the thought of course was so God closes the womb, are you are you telling me right now that God is close to my womb? What a horrible burden to bear to believe that God would do something so heinous as So I think, you know, people are so well intentioned, I’ve been told, like, just have just have more faith, and, you know, pray about it. And all these things that, of course I’ve been doing. And it doesn’t help necessarily to hear those. I would say if you know, as somebody that’s struggling with infertility, and you’re wanting to be a blessing to them and wanting to help them, probably the way to say that the, the more helpful approach would be to say something like I’m praying for you, or I love you, and I’m sorry, you’re going through this. That’s more helpful than then thanks. I pray about it. Sister Have a little faith.

15:40
Yeah, yeah. Would it be helpful? I’m so grateful that you’re sharing that because that was exactly my question. Would it be helpful if someone even acknowledged what you’re going through? You know, in terms of I’m praying for you to have a baby, sometimes people are concerned about even just admitting that this is really hard is not helpful. I mean, what what would you prefer? What do you think? Yeah,

16:02
I think, you know, I think it’s okay to say, this is really hard. And I get that. Sometimes they know, sometimes they don’t. And it’s so hard to say, because probably every woman needs something different in that situation. And I know I’ve also I’ve heard before, when I’ve talked about our struggle, people give me advice about IVF. And going became treatment. And so, you know, I think sometimes in marriage counseling, we talk about, we tell men, Hey, you don’t have to be a problem solver. Sometimes. It just helps to listen, just listen to what’s going on. And I think it’s the same for women than going through infertility sometimes just listen to what’s going back and hear their heart and give them that shoulder to cry on in and just be okay with that being enough.

16:50
Yeah, thank you for sharing that so much. That’s I mean, it’s just so many, so many are struggling in that. And I’m so sorry about that, Jessica. Well, I’d love I don’t know if you had the second story as well, if you wanted to share that, or was this? Did this tie into it? I didn’t want to.

17:10
Yeah, no, actually, they’re they’re pretty different, really? And oh, okay. The other part of that? Because the question really is, what was one of the struggles you had early in marriage? Yeah, for me, part of my struggle actually came from events that happened long before I met my husband. I was sexually abused. Many times over in high school by people, it was a bad high school experience, actually. But every year I had had something new start in it started with molestation. And I was abusing alcohol at the time. And I was checking, Id 14, I guess 15 And, and drinking pretty heavily. And so for a long time, I blamed myself for that. It actually, it took me a long time to realize even though I was drunk, and going over to these parties, it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t my fault. But I took that into marriage. And what’s amazing is I really thought that I hadn’t I thought that I was healed, I thought that I was I thought that I was in a good place. But it wasn’t long after being married, that I realized that I wasn’t in such a good place. And so anytime that my husband and I would get into a moment where we’d want to be intimate, you I would really kind of take it as well. He’s using me. And I knew that he enjoyed it. And I knew that that I sometimes enjoyed it. But I had so much thought of I’m being used. This is all you know, this is all guys care about, of course, it’s going to happen in marriage. And I’d heard a lot of bad advice too, because before I got married, I had several people tell me Well, you know, if he if he does something good reward him, you need to give them sex. And so it was worth it, you need to do this and reward him. And so I really did have this belief that that sex was for him and not for me. And it took a long time. In fact, it took until I decided to take some courses and learn more about sex education, which was just a God thing for me. But it took taking those classes where I realized how seriously impacted I still was by my own past, and how much grace I needed to not just receive from God, but to give to myself, and then also to my husband. So I had to completely retrain myself of what I thought sex meant, and what I thought sex was to what it should be and could be in marriage. So that took a lot of work. And you know, luckily my husband was able to stay with me through that. I’m sure it drove him nuts at times. But but we’ve grown a lot in that area. And we’ve been able to have very frank and open discussions now. Which was certainly not the case at the beginning. It was ugly at the beginning. Wow.

19:49
So first of all, can I just back up a little bit and just understand when you say sexual abuse when you were young so that so that involves going to parties and not knowing what was happening. And then we just had an interview with a woman who talks a lot about the mentality of a rapist. And so often nowadays, we, we think that okay, the woman’s of the wrongs, you know, we act like it’s the victims fault constantly. And, and and really I mean this mentality of rape. So often we don’t call it rape outright because we act like somehow the just the fact that the woman was there, she’s an open target or something along those lines. It’s horrible. And so that’s probably something you really had to deal with, in getting over this. Through this.

20:34
Yeah, for sure. I actually, I went to counseling. I think for two years, I want to say it was for a couple of years. So I, I, God just took me so many places, really the kind of thing that I was, I was in the church the last time it happened. My My dad was a preacher at the church I was at and so I was attending a church in the last kind of big event was the guy that I was dating at the time was actually engaged to him. And, and we really horrible relationship. And he was a drug addict. And there was a moment in the Sunday school class that we went through that my dad happened to be the teacher of so he was leading the Sunday school class, and the guy and I’m not gonna say his name, because you know, sure. The guy that I was dating, said something to me and, and what it was actually about, I had told him about a case. And I had been raped by a guy who was a black guy. The guy that I was dating at the time the guy was engaged to at the time was a white guy, he was also fairly racist, actually, with a racist. And so I told him about this story. And he had listened to it. And he was actually the first time he was the first person I ever told about what had happened to me. So I told him about it. And then, because he was racist, he had a real issue with it, but I didn’t know that at first. Yeah. So right before that Sunday school class, we had actually gone to breakfast together. And he for some reason, he just, he asked me if I’d ever slept with a black guy. And I kind of didn’t know how to handle it, because I was thinking, Oh, my goodness, I told you this story. And the answer was that that’s the one I told you about. And, and I thought, certainly he remembers it was a rave, like, certainly he gets that. And he got very angry. And he sped me over to church. And he dropped me off as Sunday school, and we weren’t there. But about five minutes. We’re steaming, he jumped up and said he was leaving and asked me if I was coming. And unfortunately, I did, because I think I was scared. So I did. He dropped me off at home. But later he told me the whole reason he reacted like that was because he felt like sex would have been so much better because of these lies that he believed with this. He could never, he could never please me. Which was horribly disappointing for me because I felt well, my goodness, I told you this heartbreaking story. And this is how you believe it. This is how you see it. And so it took a long time for me to get to the place where I realized, okay, no, this really was right. And in counseling for those two years, it took a while for me to get to the place where I really been used that word. And and I remember telling my therapist at one point, you know, as like, it’s just easier to say it was bad sex, and I will just call it bad sex. And it took a long time for me to be able to say no, this is true. I was I was victimized. I was done wrong. This isn’t okay. And it’s not the way sex is supposed to be. And I really believe that’s why I brought it in to my marriage as well, because I had these deeply ingrained beliefs that had almost been proven true by others, even though I know it’s not true. Or had been proven true by others.

23:56
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, that I mean, and so when you you, when you talked about having to actually agree that it was rape with what did that do for you inside that you were able to let that go? Were you able to say this wasn’t my fault?

24:12
I, you know, I definitely wouldn’t say so. Not at that point. It’s, it took quite some time. After that. In fact, I remember one moment. And it was in prayer. It was a long time after this. So after that whole incident happened. I knew that I wanted to go deeper in my relationship with God felt like I was kind of away from God for a while. And so the way I did that was by going to school at a Christian college. And that’s when I started counseling and go to therapy. And then in that process, I became a counseling major. That was not my major, but he was yours. And so all this was happening and probably people around me Kenneth thought that I was maybe spinning a little out of control and trying really hard to do some things that maybe I wasn’t supposed to do. But I think the one for me that was the hardest transition was When I felt like God was calling me to help people that are sexually broken, yeah, and I remember feeling that calling very strongly and feeling like God was telling me this is, this is what’s happening next in your life. And I remember just breaking down and thinking, God you are, you’re talking to the wrong person, somehow you don’t know what I’ve been through. And never sure I’m hearing you wrong. This is, this is about me some kind of hero complex, because it’s not what you’re calling me to. And I remember just ending that prayer kind of saying, God, if you if you really think this is true for me, then you’ve got to do something because I am a mess, and broken completely. And, you know, I think for a while after that, I still was but it was in that place of being able to say, Okay, God, I’m broken. come fix me. Did he was actually able to start doing so damning years after that, and my goodness, I was I was married for several months before I realized, hey, maybe this is actually what’s impacting me. Wow. And I’m a therapist. It’s amazing how blind sometimes we can be to the things that God has for us, because of our own hurts and brokenness.

26:12
Oh, yes. And I think sometimes the enemy tricks us on purpose in those particular areas, because he wants to undermine our confidence in actually being able to help people if we’re like, oh, well, I can’t actually help them. Because here I’m having this struggle. There’s no way I could be helping them. You know, I think it’s a it’s a big deception by the enemy.

26:31
Lately, I was just gonna say, What’s crazy about that is people believe the opposite, too. So we get kind of stuck in these belief patterns of, of believing either Well, I can’t help because I’m going through this or believing I can’t help because I’ve never gone through that. You’re right. I think it’s definitely a deception of the enemy where we can’t, we can’t just rely on the truth that God uses us and whether we can do a situation or not, he can use us in powerful ways to kind of sit back and let him

27:00
I love that. Yes, yes. And, and I’d love to hear, you know, as, as from the therapist side, from the psychologist side, Dr. mcleese, can I can I ask you, you know, a woman that comes into marriage with a past of rape or an abuse, I mean, how, what are the things that she needs to kind of in her heart have either maybe gone through or, or maybe some steps that, that she needs to take having gone through what you went through?

27:26
Sure, and I you know, for sure, counseling, definitely counseling, and but not just anybody, I would say, find a counselor that you feel like you can kind of connect with. And I tell people all the time, if you are trying to connect with a counselor, you know, spend 10 or 15 minutes on the phone with them and just see if maybe they’re a good fit. Because if they don’t have 10, or 1515 minutes to give you, then you know, you may not find you have their full attention in session. I know I could be wrong about that. But I just feel like if you really want to know, if you’re going to be a good fit, spend some time before you go in. But if you go in for a session or two and feel like it isn’t a good fit, it is okay to leave. So I would suggest for sure, find a counselor, and some of its trained Now, that being said, the therapist I went to was not trained in working with any kind of recovery from sexual abuse or sexual trauma of any kind. But it was still very effective for me to go. But honestly, so much of my healing came from learning a lot about sexuality, learning about what it’s intended to be learning about God’s plan for us and our sexuality. Because really, I gosh, I mean, counseling was helpful, it was incredibly helpful. And marriage has taught me a lot too. But I think without having gone to these classes and learn these concepts of how God sees sex, I don’t think I would have gotten it any other way. So I would say educate yourself to spin you know, get in circles of women who are have a good head on their shoulders about sexuality of follow this podcast, ladies, it’s so good. You know, talk to women follow other women who are doing marriage work and talking about sexual intimacy. You know, I think it is I think it’s just a lie from the enemy. And so many women have been through sexual abuse. I mean, the numbers are just staggering, and really disheartening that God can redeem and make all things new but it but we just have to understand the truth. And sometimes it’s hard to read it in Scripture. So it helps to have other women speaking it over your life. So I would say those would be the two things biggest get some counseling, but get in with other women as well. That seemed to maybe be at a stronger place than you they don’t have to be completely healed just a little bit stronger to help you along.

29:47
Yeah, no, that’s really good. I completely agree with that. And I’m interested when when this ally came up of this, you know, well, he’s just using me or sex is just for him. Most The male is the one with a higher drive, the male is the one that really needs sex to feel loved. And I’m interested, how were you able to kind of move from that lie of he’s just using me, it’s just for him into a place of where you are now. Like, I’d love to kind of hear that process of how you’re able to understand these competing ideas almost. Yeah.

30:24
And, you know, I wish I had a step by step process. Of course, unfortunately, there wasn’t really a step by step. And, you know, I think it came over time, it took me a while to realize the impact that I was having on my husband in and I can’t remember the moment, but I remember different conversations with him. So what I would do is, I wouldn’t really initiate it all, because, you know, I felt youth wasn’t initiating. And then there were times when I would initiate right before I was going to start my cycle, because I thought, Well, gosh, if I’m not allowed or not able to have sex with him for a week, then, you know, what if he goes somewhere else, and so I would initiate out of these spheres, which of course, wasn’t any good for him. And so we had a bit of a cycle going on, that I didn’t even realize was in place until he kind of confronted me about not in an ugly way at all, but just told me, you know, feels like you keep doing this. And this really hurts me. So, we talked about that. And, you know, I remember another moment in, in, gosh, I, I don’t want to say this in a way that sounds too intimate or graphic. I’m definitely not meaning it that way. But there was a moment. There not our intimate moment together. Afterwards, I was able to say. And I think I just started I don’t think I said it. But I had this realization, all of a sudden of Oh, my goodness, we are one, we are truly one. And I definitely think that was inspired by God, where he was showing me this isn’t you’re not being used. This is, you know, the I created this, this is for you, because I love you. And so it was really kind of this beautiful spiritual moment in and I can’t tell you how it happened. I mean, I don’t remember anything being ultimately different about that. Except for this realization, I finally had that this, this really is us. This is us being intimate and becoming one and, and this is something God designed and God loves and God smiles that. And I don’t have a step by step. I have clips.

32:23
Sure, please. I mean, I just Well, I wanted to pull out from what you just said, of almost like, we can’t, and I feel this way constantly. I write about this, I learned about this. I read about it. And you know, I help others with it. But at the same moment, it’s still what Paul talks about. It’s a mystery at the same moment. It’s just incredible how this is, but it but it was cool to hear that you actually, it was through experience of like, Oh, my goodness, here we are one in this intimate encounter. And then and then and that kind of your understanding of it flowed from that is that kind of Yeah, variances kind of thing. Cool. Well, the tips that you that you were that you’re speaking of, I’d love to hear Yeah, what you

33:06
Sure. You know, we could talk about this for a long time, probably. But yeah, kind of some basics. So one of the things that people can do, we kind of call it watching from the headboard. And one of the things that people can do is they kind of get outside of themselves almost during sex. And instead of concentrating on what’s actually happening between them, the couple can get to where they’re kind of watching themselves even more than their spouse. Oh, absolutely. It really concerned about every little movement, and everything that’s being said, so much so that it’s just not that enjoyable, or that much fun. So one tip I would definitely give you is to get outside of yourself a little. And so it’s definitely okay to concentrate on yourself some and to fill those good feelings and to understand and take note of that arousal, but also to really try to provide that for your spouse. So sex is interesting, because it’s not just about you, it’s not just about your spouse, it really is about the two of you. And suddenly a balance there and trying to figure out how to enjoy that pleasure that you’re receiving Well, at the same time focusing on giving pleasure to your spouse as well. And then a lot of times women get a little bit caught up in that where it’s hard to focus on themselves, it’s easier to focus on their spouse. And I think that’s probably especially true for women that have been through sexual abuse, because that core belief is that sex isn’t good or fun or delightful. Right? And so I think I think that’s probably a core belief for for those women in particular, but for all women, it can be just difficult. So get off the bed post and enjoy going on that would be yes. And then the other part of that route is remembering that your spouse’s three dimensional so they’re not just physical body. It’s easy to remember physical body when you’re having sex, of course, but to keep in mind that your spouses giving their whole selves to you at that time, not just a body part to you. So to remember that, that you really are becoming one that every part of you is, is involved in that process.

35:14
That’s really interesting. I love that. Yeah, their whole selves are involved in the sexual in the sexual experience, that’s really interesting. Um, could you unpack that a little bit more, just to try to help us understand what that means?

35:29
Sure, sure. So, sometimes we have a tendency to see just this one piece of one another. For instance, that’s what makes pornography so attractive. And popular because you only see this one piece of physical body. And in fact, even pick the physical body that you want to look at with. So, we can do that sometimes, though, even if you’ve never touched any kind of erotic or porn. And we can do that sometimes with our spouses and just look at the physical during the intimate portions of our relationship. But the truth is, even in those moments of intimacy, you’re not really just reacting on a physical level, you certainly are. But there’s more of a connection that can be had. So if you, if you can kind of think about all the reasons you love your spouse during sex as well. You know, here’s a better way to say we focus on the physical, the focus becomes the orgasm. And so if you’re focusing just on reaching orgasm, then of course, it’s okay, orgasm is wonderful. But if your focus is on orgasm, or achieving the right pleasure, you’re kind of getting into that one dimensional aspect of the person. So you’re just noticing that physical, then. But the truth is if you can kind of lose yourself and everything you love about your spouse, so yes, notice that body. But notice also that the things that you love about them, think about the kind words, you’ve said to one another, and the commitment that you made, not only today, but my goodness, every day, again, you have to recommit absolute matter. So that’s how you pull in that 3d part, you start thinking about these other versions of your spouse, where it isn’t just about the physical act of sex, or the release at the end, but it’s actually more about the entire lives that you share together. Does that make a little more sense?

37:22
Yeah, I love it. I love thinking about it that way. I think that’s very good, especially for women, when we don’t necessarily orgasm as quickly maybe as our spouses or that it’s maybe the craving of the physical stuff isn’t there, but you still have craving in the emotions, you still have craving probably, I mean, I think we could call it the spiritual realm also of that needing connection with your spouse needing that oneness. I really like thinking about it like that. I think that’s beautiful. What would you say to the wife that, you know, maybe is grappling with some of the struggles of thinking like, well, this is just for him. So the only, you know, the only way that I’m making this work is for his pleasure, or whatever, for his, you know, needs to be met or something? How would you kind of help her to be thinking about it in a way that would make it more fulfilling for the both of them?

38:11
Yeah, and you know, that that does take some relearning, I’ll tell you because I think women are taught that over and over again, because what we typically see is if a woman seems to enjoy sex or talks about it, she’s given these ugly names like, or, or other derogatory names the word woman, and so I think, you know, for so long, women are growing up believing that sex isn’t for them. And even when we just look at our popular culture, you know, typically what they’re going to show on TV and commercials and advertisements for food and gars is women that are half naked. Rather than maybe Axe body spray, there’s not or the soap guy, whatever.

38:55
Yeah, there’s nothing like to

38:57
do. It’s not many, you know, there’s not many examples to show that women have those urges to. So I think there’s a shame sometimes it’s involved that women have to get past. But Song of Solomon is a really beautiful book that shows that, you know, this woman is looking forward to seeing her man and she talks about how great he looks, and she can’t wait to be with him. And so I think that’s a good example. So you very physical practical example is actually the clitoris. So, its sole purpose, the only thing it’s there for is for women to experience pleasure. So God has designed us in such a way where we are indeed supposed to enjoy this time with our husband in his even give us an giving us a body part that is only for that that’s all it’s there for. For the man while he derives pleasure from his penis. He also uses it to go to the restroom. Right? Right. No, it works for women. So we know that God absolutely designed us in such a way where we’re supposed to expect It’s pleasure and shouldn’t be ashamed of that. The Scripture even talks about that too, we can, we can read about the woman’s body being pleasurable to the man. But we can also read about her finding pleasure in his body and saying his body is strong and masculine and fun. So I think we can definitely see that that’s true. The harder part is allowing ourselves to believe it’s true. And I think there’s a lot of reasons for that, you know, the other thing is, women are typically the ones to kind of sacrifice and be the nurturers and take care of somebody else. And we have a hard time sometimes letting someone be that for us, that that is designed by God, it’s okay to sit back and enjoy your intimate relationship with your spouse. And it’s definitely okay to enjoy sex. In probably if you’re struggling with it, this one podcast is not going to be enough to believe it. But I would encourage you to listen over and over again to other people that are saying the same thing and start embracing some of that truth and believing it on your own if you’re going through something similar.

41:03
Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah, I keep going back and forth, calling you Jessica or Dr. McLean. Which one would you prefer me to?

41:11
Ethically okay to call me, Jessica? That’s

41:13
okay. But listener do realize we are talking to Dr. mcleese. When I say Jessica, because she you know, everything that you’re saying is so packed with all of your educational background, as well as your experience background. So I just love that. And I do appreciate that you pulled out this isn’t going to be a process. This is not a if there’s a husband listening, like my wife should listen to this and you for this to her, this one podcast is not going to fix it. But it is something that daily, I even find it it’s definitely in my first marriage, I really had to struggle with that, you know, sex is just for him. And, and the interesting thing, how interesting are, you know, God has made bodies and I know, this isn’t every woman’s experience. But for me, sex was incredibly painful when I thought it was just for him. And I didn’t understand, you know, so many dynamics of sexuality wasn’t until I really committed to learn this thing. But a lot of times, we can’t even begin to like physically respond in a positive and good way. And like you said, in an unnatural way, the way the clitoris was designed to respond, and all these things, if we in our head think that, Oh, we’re doing something dirty or sinful, or or something that reminds us of the past. I mean, I think that’s a very key part of your story on how you can help so many women is understanding that sex is a shame or something along those lines. I mean, can you give us maybe some more insight on what a woman that has gone through that particular trauma really has to kind of be do to move out? And maybe some other thoughts that were helpful? Yeah, yeah.

42:44
Well, you know, I do want to say absolutely, the way you were saying is just spot on. So definitely, if you’re, you know, if you’re focused on the past, or you’re focused on believing a lie that sex isn’t for you, then yeah, absolutely. It’s not going to be for you. It’s, you’re not going to enjoy it, it’s going to be painful. So absolutely, that’s spot on, because part of enjoying sexuality or enjoying that intimate relationship is getting out of your head a little. Yeah, now it takes time. And in a lot of times, it is harder for women even you know, whether you’ve been abused or not, a lot of times, it’s harder for women. Because interestingly enough, it’s kind of how our brains are created. So men usually connect, you know, one point to the next. And we need that in our lives. We women need that. But women usually connect 50 6070 points at once. So just about at any time, if you ask a man what he’s thinking, and we’ve all been there, right, where you ask your man what he’s thinking, he’s like, Yeah, and we don’t believe Yeah, because for women, there’s not a time when we’re not thinking about something, and usually several something’s that went, right. So it makes it incredibly hard. If you’ve been through abuse to go into an intimate time or an intimate moment with your spouse, and not have your mind just going nuts with all these other things. Be it as late as what you need to make for dinner after you’re finished. All the way to Gosh, this reminds me of so and so. And it’s not good. So I mean, our minds can can go crazy. And you know, a big part of it is like I said before, just trying to get that focus on your spouse and kind of off of yourself. So it’s okay to kind of go through an exercise and just think for a moment where where do I feel the tingles right now what feels good? Do I feel pain because if so, maybe I could move a little and communicate that with your spouse. But at the same time, look in your spouse’s eyes and talk to him if you need to. During that time, it is definitely okay to say his name out loud would get him so say what you love about it. I love your shoulders or your arms or whatever it is, so that you can keep yourself focused. Because what we talk about is what our mind is on. So we can have Lots of thoughts going through our mind. But when we actually make ourselves speak, our thoughts get more directed to what we’re saying. So I would encourage you, for anyone that’s struggling in their sexual relationship, finding that it’s really hard to stay focused, whether it’s from past trauma and hurt, or whether it’s just because it’s hard to focus sometimes. Yeah, I would encourage you talk to your husband, tell, tell him what you like, tell him what he’s doing that feels really good. If he’s willing to listen, guide him and direct them a little in a light, nice, loving way. But yeah, I would encourage you stay focus that way. Yeah. And for some, for some women, it helps to pray a little bit too. So if you’re starting to be intimate in and you realize, gosh, I’m thinking about past trauma, give it to God, God, God’s there. And he loves that you guys are embracing one another, he plans on that. So talk to him in that moment. Just say God helped me out here I want to be focused on my spouse helped me do that. And I believe he answers those prayers.

45:57
Yeah, I love those keys. Because I absolutely, fully agree that it’s not the easiest thing to say, you know, just just focus, you know, like, just stay in the present. And, yeah, I have a quick resource eight secrets to help women stay present in the bedroom that I’ll link up in the show notes. But yeah, because it’s I mean it but it’s similar to what you’re saying. It really is getting your words in line. And I want to kind of go into that a little bit. Because I love what you said, when we actually make ourselves speak out loud. That kind of brings that extra attention on what we want to be focused on. And I say that a lot when I’m thinking about affirmations before making love when I’m like maybe preparing and I’m like, I’m not really in the zone here. But I might then say it out loud that I really love this about my husband, I love that he craves this experience. I love that, you know he’s so in enraptured by my body, these kinds of things I’ll say in advance. But also in the I love that you give some tips about speaking in the bedroom. And I know, as Christian wise, a lot of times we think we have to be chaste and holy. And, you know, how am I supposed to say anything in the bedroom? I mean, could you give some guidelines for women that might be really struggling in that area?

47:11
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I wish I knew the exact scripture was I don’t, but the one that came to mind as you were talking, and there’s a scripture that says that the wife’s body is not for her, it’s for her husband and the husband, it is not for him, it’s for the wife. So we know that it’s definitely a good thing to delight and our spouses, something that can be helpful. And sometimes it takes a little bit of kind of training and processing and getting ready for an exercise like this. But it can be really helpful just to check your spouse out, look at their body and think about what are some of the things that I love most in and you’re doing this? Well, if you can comment on something about that physical appearance that kind of drives you wild, it does not have to be something that would be seen as incredibly intimate. Like, I joke about it, I love his arms, I always have that wouldn’t be considered this, you know, highly intimate or erotic area, but their mind. Yeah. And so I think it helps to look at that. What are those? You know, what are those places on your spouse, whether it’s his smile, or his eyes, maybe even his nose or his hair at what is it that you can say this I really love and be proud of that be proud of your spouse’s body. But beyond that, again, it’s not just physical, it’s all these other pieces. So think about those other things. You know, what is he inspired in you? How does he make you a little bit better? Because truth is, if your marriage is going well, you should be making each other a little bit better in some area. So yeah, iron sharpens iron, we help each other? How do we grow each other? So how does your husband sharpen you? What does he do that make you a better person? And what can you be thankful for, for him? So I would say concentrate on some of those things. And if you find that there’s just this disconnect. And I would just tell you, that lady listening, please know that it may not be you, as it is the man and so I would say if there’s this, you know, there’s this disconnect, and you don’t feel like you’re connecting and whether you believe it’s more on you’re more on him, I would say it’s, it’s a couple problem. It’s both of you. So the loving counselor that they can help you through this and work with you are another couple that can help you through this so that you can connect because you know, sex is a gift for both of you not for just one or the other. And not just one or the other is impacted when it isn’t going well. So, so it’s a work together on it and find someone to support you in that process.

49:41
Yeah, no, that’s great. Yeah. And, and I love that you you brought into it, you know, your body’s not your own and his body is not his own. And I was just listening to something recently. So I know I think it’s first Corinthians seven that it speaks about that and I just totally agree with you. That’s just brilliant to be talking about Thinking about that, what’s in front of you is your husband, and that’s your body and you can enjoy his body as if it were your own. And it’s kind of and vice versa. And, and that’s a holy good act. And I love that, you know, Dr. mcleese, you just, you know, give us that freedom, it is so, so important.

50:26
Yeah, that’s just such a powerful story. And thank you so much, Jessica, for being so open and honest with us. I know, she and I have been talking back and forth for a while now. And I really honor that she was willing to share some of the more significant trials that she’s had, I hope that you can relate. And you can have hope that God is going to do some amazing things in your heart as well. Don’t forget to pick up that resource, go to delight your marriage.com. And you’ll see on the right hand side, a little picture that says eight secrets to staying present in the bedroom. So pick that up. I’ve had some really great feedback that that’s been very helpful advice and insights. So check that out. Also, while you’re there, you can sign up for my next webinar. It’s coming up very soon. And it’s basically telling you soup to nuts, how to make him a wild with desire for you. So I’d love for you to be there live. It’s going to be a great time with the ladies and myself. Okay, God bless you. I love you and praying for you and your marriage by

51:33
thanks for being with us. If you loved liked or just found this episode interesting, go to delight your marriage.com and continue the conversation in the comments. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion