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What a fantastic interview with Gary Thomas!

If you’re not familiar with him yet, I think you’ll be glad that you are now!

Gary has a new book out: Married Sex — to add to the other books that have been such a perspective shift for me and many I know. His heart is specifically about God’s design for marriage as an opportunity to grow closer to Him.

I want to share one specific phrase, the tagline of his bestseller Sacred Marriage, “What If God Designed Marriage to Make Us Holy More Than to Make Us Happy?” That inspires me and encourages me away from secular values and norms, and provokes me to be more aligned with God’s will and desires.

But know, dear listener, he believes that enjoyable and pleasurable sex is a great part of God’s plan!

How? Well, we talk about tools and tips and understandings around sex and the differences in men and women that can give you a whole different view of what God intended sex to be.

Gary helps people open their hearts to more. And because you can see so clearly his pursuit for the Lord, it helps to hear him say some things about sex that you might otherwise think are not “appropriate” for a holy person. But the truth is they are and so much more joy can be had in this realm.

Do pick up his book Married Sex and check out more of his work at marriedsex.us

 

It was a true honor to get to speak to Gary in person as I have admired his work from afar. It really has been a huge blessing to me, my understanding of God as well as grace, joy and respect for my own husband. I’m excited for you to get to know him better!

Blessings,

Belah

 

PS – If you’d like to find out more about Delight Your Marriage accountability-based programs and live coaching, you can go to delightyourmarriage.com and click on Clarity Calls or other free resources.

 

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Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. You’re joining me belah rose as I dive deep into the beauty, power and truth about intimacy, learn not only the practicals, but the heart behind what making love is all about delight your marriage. Hi there and welcome. This is belah. And I have got such a great conversation that we’re about to dive into with Gary Thomas. Now, if you’re not familiar with Gary, I have been familiar with him for quite a while. And he has got some really great books, one is married sex that has just come out. And we’re going to be talking a lot about that book. And he’s just got some fun tastic tools and tips and perspectives that I think will really bless you whether you’re a husband or a wife. Now one of his major books, and most popular ones is called sacred marriage. And I’m very familiar with that one. And you may be used to or have heard of the phrase, because others in my podcast, interviews have have referenced it. But what if God has made us in marriage to be wholly more than just happy. And I think it’s a great insight. And it speaks to so much more about what the marriage relationship can be and what we can learn through it and from it. And then the other book that I have gained a lot of insight from is sacred pathways. And in fact, my own home church did an entire sermon series based on his book. And so I just, it’s such a joy to have Gary here, and he’s got a heart after the Lord. And how does that translate into intimacy, physical intimacy, I can’t wait for you to hear his perspectives, because I think it’s going to challenge all of us to go out of our comfort zone, another step in intimacy, in the context of a oneness, a holy connection with, with God at the center of your marriage in intimacy being an outpouring of the relationship he designed, and he made. So let’s go ahead and dive in.

2:32
Here’s how we started, we, we literally just got on, I’m giving you guys the full scoop. We just got on the call. I was a minute late. I closed all my tabs. And I was like Jerry, I just want to say, before we start, I wanted to just ask you Is this something? Have, you know, because sometimes people will reach out and they’ll say, Oh, we like your podcast, but maybe they just were searching and they kind of want to be a guest on a certain podcast or what have you. And so usually I don’t really respond to that, or my wonderful Darcy office manager doesn’t respond to that. But um, when I got an email from Gary Thomas, saying that he has listened to the podcast, I thought, Well, my gosh. So I had to ask Gary if he had actually listened to the podcast. Okay, so go ahead, Gary.

3:14
I did. I said, Listen to too many of them. And I mentioned that I thought your your one I don’t know when this will be airing. But back aways, the impotence of masculinity, I thought was just brilliant. And what’s drawn me back belah is you have not just a pastoral voice, you have a pastoral tone, and content. That’s why I think you reach both men and women. And it’s refreshing. It’s, it’s weird to me that I have to say this, I wouldn’t have had to 10 years ago. But on that podcast when you admit that men and women are different. Neurologically, I mean, neuroscientists, I had two practicing neuroscientists that my book married sex on the neuroscience, and then it still gets the labeled junk science by some because they just have a motivation to say that there’s no difference between men and women. It can be overstated. And I and I say many times, I think you can do great damage to your marriage, you can treat your husband, like most men want to be treated if that’s not how he does, or your wife, like most women like to be treated and how she does. But you recognize that there is a beautiful way that God designed us to compliment each other, bring out the best of each other, affirm each other, learn from each other, honor each other and respect each other. And it’s just rare in this day and age, to see someone who has such reverence for men and women and I think it’s because you work with men. And I think some people said that about us as well as a gear we can tell you work with real couples that Deborah my co author Phil ADA actually works with couples If it’s when you’re trying to help couples, and when you’re trying to write a book or a blog that just causes how, because you want to be healing, you recognize that life is messy, we’re not perfect, we’re filled with sin, and you get that. So I just like for you what I think of when I think of ballots, I think of the pastoral tone to men and women, the understanding of how God created us but with appropriate with appropriate humility, that that we’re all different their continuance, the way you handle Scripture, the way you call us to the better things of the faith, sacrifice and service that can be abused, it can be taken too far, but you apply it in a very pastor away. I think those are the things that keep me coming back. It just kind of reminds me of my own approach, and I just love hearing you say it

5:59
it is just such water to my soul that is so so so special. And um, I just, you know, when you reached out, I This is embarrassing to say, I didn’t realize you were the author of sacred pathways that has such blessed me and blessed our congregation, my pastor and my husband, it was such a blessing to me to know that my husband and I could experience God differently. And that was okay. It didn’t mean that, oh, I was more spiritual because I was, uh huh. You know, and it was just like, God is teaching and loving and speaking through him and to him in a completely different way. And anyway, I just have to be so so grateful. Because it to your point, I mean, we are we’re in Messy, messy work, just trying to help point people towards Jesus. That’s the goal.

6:56
Well, I just I mean, because I’m familiar with your message and what you emphasize, I felt like you know, she might not know anything about me, but I feel like she’s a sister in arms. And I’m always happy to talk to a co worker and the gospel, and particularly in marriage, ministry, pointing people not just to each other, but to Christ recognize that our highest call of spiritual maturity, which leads to marital intimacy, and keeping that together, I feel like you do a good job.

7:27
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Gary. So I’m just so grateful that our audience is getting a chance to hear from you. But just in case they haven’t heard of you before. Now, first of all, I’m really glad they are hearing of you. But would you mind just giving an introduction to yourself and your work? And a little bit of background?

7:48
I’ve been a writer for most of my adult life. I’ve written over 20 books, sacred marriage, you mentioned, you mentioned Sacred Path, a sacred marriage is the best seller. I mean, it’s what made the writing life possible for me, sacred pathways is probably the best selling non marriage book, nine different ways that we connect with God. And I started out writing, how do we help people connect with God? How are people formed in Christ. But then my fourth book was his book called sacred marriage that I looked at as a spiritual formation book. Some may be familiar with the subtitle was been lampooned and I think, misrepresented, but it’s what if God designed marriage to make us holy, more than to make us happy? Not instead of happy. I quote John Wesley, who said, he doesn’t know anybody who’s truly happy, who isn’t pursuing holy, not pitting them against each other. It’s that sense of when we heard especially 20 years ago, and the book first came out, well, doesn’t God want me to be happy? Of course, I have to divorce myself. And again, not talking about abusive situations, just those kind of marriages where they just grew apart, or they were frustrated with each other, and really trying to say, well, you know, what, no, marriage is easy in its own right. I think marriage is a difficult relationship. I think it’s a glorious relationship. And I think God uses the difficulties to grow us into better people who resemble Christ, if we accept it that way. And so I’ve really looked at as a book that, you know, I, I grew up with a tradition where the closer you become to a monk or a nun, the Holy Year you are, but I got married at 22. I had three kids by the age of 30. And I’m like, I’m not gonna be a monk. I mean, if I tell my wife, I need to go get hold. I’m gonna go off to a monastery for the weekend, while you watch the three kids that, you know, wouldn’t have ended well, right. Right. So but I noticed how God was challenging me through marriage to learn how to see my sin in a way I never had before to learn how to live To learn how to value somebody but myself to learn how to serve, forgive and ask for forgiveness, how to serve. And all of those things that monks and nuns look a lot of avenues for them to grow isolation. Solitude can be very spiritual, profitable. But marriage can be spiritually profitable. And I hadn’t seen somebody approach it that way. And so that’s when that book took off and writing full time became a possibility for me,

10:28
that is so beautiful. I love that you said marriage can be spiritually profitable. Because you’re absolutely right. It a lot of especially a lot of very spiritual people can say, you know, that, if I just didn’t have that person, I would be the, you know, holiest of holy, I would be all set.

10:48
Well, is one time when, you know, I’d read a lot of the Christian classics and let people what are the Christian classics. Most books have a shelf life somewhere between yogurt and milk. A lot of the books that get the big things they’ll sell 80% of their copies in their first four months might never go that way. But that’s the traditional life of a book. Christian classics are just books that have been read for hundreds or even couple 1000 years. And so reading about monks and nuns because most of Christian classics were written by monks and nuns, for monks and nuns, you start to think, Well, man, that is really the holy route. But I had this wonderful weekend with my wife, actually, I came back from a trip. And Lisa greeted me with a wonderful time of marital intimacy. And it’s got to tell you when your husband who travels, and the wife says, You know what, I bet you’ve been missing me. Yes. You, bingo, You win that bet. And so we had a wonderful time when that bet. But but then Bella, this is real life, I had two small kids at the time, and the toddler had a fever, the baby was sick. And so the baby kept wanting to nurse and you know, times, baby Stop nursing to eat their nursing for comfort. And I was trying to hold our toddler but when a toddler is really sick, sometimes mamas arms, their preferred arms. And I literally watched my wife give all of her body to her family. And, and I thought, you know, for her going to a solitary prayer retreat would sound like an absolute vacation. Far from making a spiritual, you know, compromise. This was the route for us to spiritual maturity. And same thing for me. I wanted to be a writer early on, my wife wanted to stay home with the kids. And that really delayed when I could do my because I had to do a job to feed my family and try to get become a writer on the side. So both of us had challenges and sacrifices we had to make. They weren’t pleasant. But I think we’re different people because of them. And I think marriage helped shape us that way.

13:13
So I just love that and it gives so much value and maybe even dignity to the little tiny annoyances of, you know, a toddler that’s sneezing in your face and whiny and tired and waking you up.

13:33
Oh, Lisa was ridiculously young when we got married. I, if I’m honest, I would tell you she was 19 I just can’t believe I’m married a teenager. But since I believe life begins at conception in God’s eyes. She was in her 20s.

13:52
That’s right, of course. So.

13:54
But so and then she had our first kid came about three and a half years into our marriage. And so you know, she was pretty young woman. And we had three kids. And I just remember her frustration. It’s just one time she’s always talking about having white spots, because we had one kid that had some real stomach issues spitting up everywhere she goes, and you can change your kids clothes 10 times a day, you usually don’t changers. And she kept talking about and so one of our birthdays, I think or Mother’s Day or something. I wrote her this story called white spots. And it was basically about how when Jesus said blessed are you, you know, I was hungry and you fed me I was naked and you clothed me the whole point was, who comes into this world more stranger than a baby, literally 100% dependent on somebody caring for her and who comes into the world more naked, who gets hungrier who gets sicker more and I just wanted my wife to see everything you’re doing is what Jesus says commends them and we sit there my kids God’s kids first. Yes. And those white spots are badges of honor and spiritual glory, that I think you’ll hear about an eternity she was a devoted mom. And I just wanted in that story for her to see that this isn’t just a physical thing you’re doing. It’s a real spiritual journey. You’re on raising these kids. And so it’s it’s how we’ve looked at our marriage for 37 years in, I can’t believe it. I know you said on one podcast that you work with a lot of men who have been married longer than your you’ve been alive, being one of those men. But it’s a it’s been a journey.

15:38
I’ll tell you. Oh, Gary, amazing. I need to mention the beautiful story, you just the beautiful story you just shared with us, is a window into the perspective you have of your wife. So any husband listening, I’d like you to scroll on back and re listen to exactly what you just heard from Gary, because if you’re wondering why Gary and his wife have a great intimate life, it’s because that’s the way he sees his wife. That’s the way he sees his wife, please, pursue that kind of perspective of your wife, and the rest is going to really take care of itself. Gary, what, um, tell us about what’s a question that I should ask you that you’re like, if Bella would just ask me this, I would rip forever.

16:25
Well, I mean, you’ve led me to do my favorite subjects, loving God and loving my wife. So I hit them all. I mean, I think as Christians, we’re called to live a life of love. And but I’ve found love for God first. It’s why I love it when people love sacred pathways, because I’ve found, it’s so essential to connect with God. If I don’t, I start demanding from my wife, when I’m connecting with God, and being affirmed and accepted and loved and empowered and inspired, I want to give to my wife, and so often marital issues, or spiritual hunger issues in my life. And so I like to keep that let’s talk about how do we love God, how to grow closer to God. And that’s what the pathways are about. But then, you know, life is about loving people. And the older I get, the more I realized that and Bill, I love the way you say, your spouse is your first person. Hmm. Because the reality is, this world will try to rip you up. Your kids may not appreciate you, your co workers may slam you people that have never met, you may try to define you and will slander you but to have that one relationship. I I didn’t go up particularly secure purse, I’m third of four kids, two older brothers, perfect older but but I mean, it’s perfect as a guy, he literally is an Eagle Scout, solid Christian, just a great guy then had a sister who was like a saint towards Child Protective Services as for boy, you know. And so I never, I just wasn’t that secure. And yet having a woman who literally knows me better than anyone ever has. And she still likes me. And she still respects me. I can’t tell you how healing that’s been for me. Just that, okay. You know, I see in her eyes she the way she looks at me. And so that’s where I think love is so powerful toward God and toward each other.

18:43
Powerful. Yes, yes. And okay, so now we’ll talk to the women do that for your husband. Love them except them respective. I just love it. So good, Gary. Well to tell me what was the genesis of married sex this, this book that is just come out? What’s the genesis of it? You’ve got a co author? Maybe give us a little insight around that.

19:04
Yeah. Well, I had, yeah, I’m on a number of emails and text messages from people that do what I do, you know, marriage speakers and writers and all of that. As a couple of years ago, they just said, Man, we just we think we need a new book for evangelical couples on sex. They said that the ones that were classics are getting a little bit dated some of the ones that were more popular. Had language where it’s well, don’t be offended wives. There’s still some good content in here. Right. And they said we just want to book we don’t have to apologize for and a couple months ago, we think you’re the guy to write that. Wow. But I just didn’t think the climate was right Bella for another book on sex, written by a man is and so I wanted to cover Right. And I really admired the work of Deborah Phyllida. And what I liked about, well, I loved her writings on marriage, but I like the fact that we’re different decades. She’s in her 30s. I was in my 50s. When we started, obviously, she’s a woman. I’m a man, I wanted a wife’s perspective. She’s been married 15 years I’ve been married, well over 35. She’s a licensed counselor, I’m a spiritual writers, we had different skill sets, we really wanted to write a book that could help couples understand, okay, these are the biggest roadblocks to sexual intimacy. And here’s what a marker is of healthy sexuality, and how do we get couples to go there? And I was just thrilled when you start out of poverty book, you really don’t know. How’s it going to go? And I couldn’t have been more pleased. I thought I never did a brilliant job with her chapters. I love the way she refined mine, Gary, this is how a wife’s gonna read it. Maybe we want to put this a different way. And then I could advocate for men. And it’s how I praise your show. Belle is what I wanted the book to do. I wanted men to feel heard and understood not to be shamed. Yeah, not to be humiliated not to feel like you shouldn’t act like a man. Right? But also women to feel heard and understood. Yeah. Finally, my husband will understand he’ll get me now. We know that not every man or woman is alike. So we call it a book of questions as much as ants in our approaches. This is what it’s often like, talk about, use this as a conversation, ask each other, we want women to understand and appreciate that both of those are important, not just understanding, but appreciating. We want men to understand and appreciate women because we found that a lot of husbands make love to their wives like they want their wives to make love to them. And a lot of wives make love to their husband, like they want their husbands to make love. And well, you know what, you have different bodies, you have different brains. Yeah, a woman’s skin is up to 10 times more sensitive than a man. Just think about how that impacts foreplay. It’s why women tend to be into it more. It’s why often men do like the wife’s touches to light and White might say, you know, be a little bit lighter. Maybe you’re You’re too heavy. When you just kind of understand those things. It’s like, oh, and just telling men, hey, you know what, a woman’s nose is much more acutely sensitive than yours. Just because you smell okay to yourself, doesn’t mean you smell okay to your wife. Just just a few tips. And even to get more explicit, please. I’ve been married over 30 years. And we were talking, we pulled or interviewed over 1000 couples. And one of the things that kept coming out when we were asking couples about the whole experience for many wives, their favorite part of lovemaking is when the husband first enters. As a garden never thought about, I’m even thinking that’s the start and they’re saying I want to relish it, I want to guess what it means to me. Here’s how. So we just describe it. The guys saying, hey, if that might be her favorite time, maybe you pause and think, How do I make this extra special? What’s painful? What’s more pleasurable? How do I clue in that? Okay, I wouldn’t even think of this. If it’s a big thing for how do I be more sensitive. So there are just a lot of things like that, Bella that, that I’m still learning that Deborah was learning that we just want to pass on to couples.

23:45
That is fantastic. Even just those two tips are fantastic. Care to share anymore. Were there any other like, Aha is that you just felt like we’re widely held.

23:57
One of the there are a couple things. One that was a favorite chapter for a lot of people has been the five senses of sex. It’s fascinated me how the Song of Songs not only celebrates marital sexuality, but every sense is emphasized as erotic potential. Hmm. And so we just look at the persons we we quote the scriptures and talk about how bringing in the senses more I think especially for long term monogame trying to emphasize certain senses can have a huge impact. And so we just talked about smell was a big belt spent well. One wife said she has this perfume that she wore on her wedding night. Every anniversary, she dabs that between her breasts and the scents in our brain, smell and memory are connected. And it brings back that special time when they were first. sexually intimate. Another way Talking about certain smells that they love. And then, but one woman said her favorite smell is unscented. So I’m not clean, but I want it to be unscented. And so that’s again, why you want to say, well don’t just take what another wife says, Ask your wife about it. And so of that we’ve talked about difference in in touches, music can be a huge what music does to our brain, being thoughtful about what you listen to, while you’re making love, literally fires up your brain, this, your listeners might be younger, but if they remember old style computers, were where you could see on the front, the more programs you use, the more it would light up, because more of the memory for was being used. Our brains are kind of like that. If you’re engaging all of your senses, you’re literally more alive, more of your brain is focused. And there’s, this is beautiful, the one app that makes you see, smell, hear taste, and touch is kissing with your eyes. Oh, you’re tasting, you’re smelling, you’re feeling if your eyes are open, you’re looking and you’re doing it right, you can hear it. And so it’s really one of the most intimate things you can do. Is is kiss learn to kiss passionately, with with all of those senses going. And so just looking at that through the senses, again, it’s couples can say, Oh, wow, this is this is something entirely new. How can be different than I, I tell women, your voice is an instrument. Think of a woman’s voice.

26:41
entirely different. atmospheres can be set if she is laughing. If she’s moaning, if she’s cooing, if she’s begging, or pleading, or just silent because she’s so intense. Everyone will things I’ve described is an entirely different kind of sexual experience. It’s what I love about married sex, can have all different kinds, but just what that what that sound does and create an entirely different experience. And so I described five or six different kinds of sex that just with modulation of a woman’s voice, she’s setting the tone, and doing that. So when you go back to listening as a sense, another thing that we talked about was simmering sexuality, which again, I love in in sexual therapy today, there’s been a lot of talk about simmering, which is it’s not foreplay, it’s for foreplay. The idea is that it’s difficult to go from ice cold to red hot. And so if you can live it lukewarm on a day, when you think there’s going to be sexual activity, you’re going to be more open to the idea. And what one might did to do that and shouldn’t say you look in a Song of Songs, and there’s literally an account of a husband meditate on how beautiful his wife is how he’s attracted to every part of her. And then there’s a long passage about the wife, two minutes, the husband, but one wife, in summary, knowing she’s gonna have sex, she has this playlist of songs that they have literally made love to, that she’s experienced orgasms listening to. And so when her husband’s coming home, she’s making macaroni and cheese for her kids music app, she’s not just eating up their dinner. She’s eating up her body to receive her husband. And what I love. This is where it’s so practical belly because Lisa and I are point in our age and whatnot where we’ve always been really matched libido wise, I don’t know that there’s ever been a higher lower. I think when I was younger, situationally, maybe I would have been considered the higher drive, but we’re really in a place. And so sometimes Lisa will say if it’s been too long, hey, we’re having sex tonight at 930. And it’s not an option. So keep yourself in gear. And, but why I love that she’s calling me to summer she’s saying, Okay, I know you go to sleep early, don’t lay down and watch TV at 830 Because you’re not going to feel like being intimate with me at night. I don’t take that as a threat or an obligation. It’s a wonderful invitation. It’s like okay, games on game day. Get your mind in gear, get yourself in gear. And those are just things that that I learned writing this book and I was eager to share with people to read it.

29:38
I just love it. There’s so much good in there. I love the idea of Semmering especially for somebody who yeah, getting in gear is important and I you know, I think definitely for me is it’s you know more the lower libido of the two. It’s really helpful for me to even in my head like okay, wait tonight As the night I am going to be thinking about it, I’m going to make sure I do some dancing earlier. You know, when it’s just me in the bathroom, I’m going to get into my body and just feel and I just love this. I love the encouragement about music that is such a difference maker, and especially the idea of music ahead of time, you know, ahead of the experience, because a lot of times we’ve got to start in faith, and then our body kind of catches up to us and gets us excited.

30:29
Um, well, one, one wife who had to learn how to simmer. You got it, she started in the shower, she was told, okay, choose a particular kind of soap. And take your time. This isn’t naughty, this isn’t sinful. Just enjoy the sensual experience. And that sensual doesn’t mean simple. It just means enjoy the sensual experience of giving yourself a shower, getting clean, choose undergarments that get you in the mood that you like, but get you thinking, as you put on oils, or whatever you do throughout the day. You’re listening to songs, you’re getting your money. And so for her it was just this all day thing because her husband was hired drive where she could, so that by the evening, she’s like, she can’t wait. But she just realized with her brain, your brain is what it is. I got to get it in here. And Bill, we see athletes do this all the time you watch those tennis players walk on the court with Wimbledon, often with with earbuds in, or professional football players or basketball players walking in, and they’re getting themselves up for the game. All right, yeah, I got to marital intimacy in marriage is more important than these games. And so if we have to get ourselves there, that’s just life. It’s real life. And I think it’s good to do it.

31:55
That’s right. It is real life. And, you know, Gary, you said, How many kids did you say you have? To have three? Okay, and would you say and through your research and through writing this book with with the many 1000 people that you interviewed? Have you seen trickle down effects of the sexual relationship impacting who we are as parents and the and the, the environment that children get to grow up in?

32:27
I think it’s been one of the most rewarding things, Bella just seeing that. And it’s not. It’s not just because they’re enjoying sex more some of her realizing. I, I got a call from that. This was before the book came out. But it was nice speaking on it, he said, Thanks for giving me the most awkward conversation in my life. What are you talking about? He says, Well, he had a couple came in in their early 70s. I just spoken there. And I’d done a session on God’s view of sexuality and the Song of Songs and Gods celebrating it. And the wife said nobody had ever told me this. I thought it was just for the husband. I didn’t know God was okay with it like that. And the man looks at the past his past. So you got to help me. I don’t know if I can keep up. That’s just sitting there. What am I supposed to say to these? They’re all parents, but. But the wife, Bella was angry as well saying, how many decades did we lose? Because we didn’t understand the Bible. And nobody told us what the Bible said. And so I’m thrilled. I’m hoping couples don’t have to wait to their 70s. But some I think we just get busy in your 20s and 30s. I think Deborah does a great job where sometimes you feel like, you know, before you have kids, it’s often spontaneous. It’s easy. You often desire it, and then you just get tired. And Deborah’s husband’s a good example is Devon’s husband’s an eye surgeon. And when he was going through residency, he could be working 100 hour weeks. And it’s telling he said every picture of him that year, he’s laying on the couch with their baby. So if you’re working 100 hour weeks, he said I desired sex, but I never had the energy for it. It’s not a lack of interest in Deborah. It was just one of those life situations. And yeah, happen if you’ve got a couple toddlers and certainly a baby. And and you just need the reminder. Oh, okay. We don’t want to let this die. And so we’re hoping that book will just kind of be that there are really four areas where I think people get held up sexually. For some Christians, it’s theological. They have a repressive view of sexuality, either a view that it’s only for the husband or that God allows it for procreation, but you shouldn’t enjoy it too much or that it’s really limited on what you can enjoy. They’re more concerned about what you do. shouldn’t do in bed, then what God celebrate you doing in bed. The other thing can be psychological, where sexual abuse, you’ve dealt with these, you know, you know, past marriage where there it was a nightmare where it wasn’t mutually pleasurable where it was abusive and coercive and manipulative, you’re gonna have to deal with that. It could be relational. If a guy’s got a problem with anger, that’s going to impact his sex life, it impacts his ability to perform sexually impacts his wife’s desire to be intimate with Him, that’s not a sexual issue. That’s a personal relational issue. He’s got to, he’s got to deal with that. Then, the third thing, it can be physical, sex is a physical sport that you have the master guy learning control. Later in life, if reptile dysfunction becomes an issue, well, maybe you never had to work before to be what is the app to do? A woman’s body changes dramatically through the month and then as she gets older into menopause and whatnot. So it’s, it’s understanding some of the physical challenges. And then finally, I think it’s just creative challenges, couples get bored. You’ve made love. It’s really fun. I’m working with premarital couples, they’re going to I’m going to be marrying them next month, as I speak this so they might be married when this comes out. But we I encourage them, this might just seem crazy idea. I encourage them to put a diamond jar every time they make love. Because I said imagine when you know, this is the 100th time we’ve been in. And this is the 1,000th time. And I said to him and and I said to the husband Hey, you should let her buy whatever she wants these Dunn’s by the way, but they count them up I go because then it’s a duel of motivation, right? You know, I want those earrings or something but but you just after a while you need creative things. And that was the purpose of the 1000 couples that we pulled her interview because you don’t really want to sit in your small group and say you guys wouldn’t believe what we did last. Like, you know, we don’t need the picture that but in a book yet, when you can change the names, and be very explicit. I do want to warn listeners, Bella, because of these stories. It is an explicit book.

37:27
Mm hmm. I hope tasteful. It’s not pornographic, but they’re giving their ideas of things that work that just experience a wife saying, This is what it feels like when my husband enters. So, but that’s, I think the holiest way to have new ideas. Oh, yeah. Never thought about that. Well, yeah, tonight. So we’re really trying to address those four issues, the psychological, the theological, the physical, and the creative, so that couples can thrive in a way maybe they never have before.

38:01
Oh, I just love it. And you know, that the thing is, if if you’re not explicit, if you’re not specific, it’s like, well, then we’re just theoretical, and then no one gets helped.

38:14
Well, and it’s, it’s, yeah, it’s causing some might think it’s too but I had one example where the chapters choose your position or choose your adventure. And the whole point is that most couples fall into one or two positions, which is fine. Like it doing it. I don’t, I don’t criticize anybody. But, but just a story of a guy who’s just sitting on the bed, reading a book or watching a lot. I don’t remember what he was doing. And his wife came in after she showered and just got this idea. She drops her talents as you can keep breeding, but I’m going to sit here for a while. So she sat with her back against his chest. And they started making love. And they started and ended in that position. And it was just different. And he said it was accidental. Yeah, think about it. But yeah, it was just like, wow, it felt fresh. It felt good. So we just described now we don’t say like, well, in any event, we just kind of set it up. So you knew what was happening without. But that’s the kind of thing the whole point was, you know what? They accidentally fell into a position that really made things fresh. How about you choose it and hear what some other couples did? And so we help husband See, here’s what why I say, Well, this is why I like to be on top what it means to me. One wife said, I used to think sex was naughty, and I just feel empowered up there. Just because I just feel like I’m taking back what was stolen from me. Hmm. But then she said, but when I need to really feel that physical release, I want him she said, You know, I want to fold me up like a pretzel. I want his arms all around me. I want him to feel strong and And it was just helpful for couples to recognize every act of sex can speak of fun. athleticism, sensuousness, spiritual connection, intense emotional connection, or just immense, physical pleasure. And every one of those is holy, and good and sacred. And you could say what kind of sex you want to have tonight, here’s the menu. Maybe we can choose something different.

40:30
Gary, that is just awesome. I love that this conversation started with the way we connect with God, the way we love God, that is our priority. And then loving your spouse is is just an outpouring of that love that we get to love our spouse in this way. And so having the practical tools, having the ideas having the here’s what we do, here’s what we can do to get each other enjoying and I love the it tell me those different. The last thing I remember was intense pleasure. But what were the other ones?

41:10
Oh, well, the kinds that Yeah, well, you can have athletic sex, you can have fun sex, you can have spiritual feeling sex, you can have sensual sex, you can have, you know, all and I probably forgot some it was fun painting. So it wasn’t

41:24
always like, I don’t know, if these were chapter headings, if I needed to scribble this down,

41:29
there just was just, I mean, sometimes wife said, you know, I just want to feel like I have this big, strong husband with his arms around me. I like it, because I feel it. And now I realized some wise if they weren’t in a healthy marriage bill, that would be terrifying. And so again, you have to understand, we’re talking about marriages where there’s healthy connection. And, and, and respecting that, but within those marriages, knowing that sometimes, well, here’s a couple where they used to the husband can last a long time. And they used to take advantage of it. But then they had I think four kids, I may have that wrong might be five might be three. And so it became this, Honey, the kids are in front of the TV, we got 10 minutes, turn the TV up loud, get up here. And they would do these quickies because the wife said, I just needed a physical release. I’ve got kids pawn on me all day. I don’t have anybody touching me that much. But I get the relief. I’m good with it. But then she and her husband noticed some quickies are to marital health, like fast food is to the physical body, it meets the immediate need. It doesn’t really nurture the soul, it doesn’t nurture the marriage, it doesn’t nurture the body. And so they had to learn. Sometimes we need to go to the hotel, sometimes we need to recapture those gourmet moments. There’s nothing wrong with quickie sets, if there’s a position that it works for, she’s going to orgasm, it’s good for him to know that because sometimes that’s just what she wants 10 minutes, make it happen. But for the health of the relationship, enjoy the journey that make the orgasm, the end of a long, delightful experience. It’s part of it, but just a part of it, not the main event. And so that’s where the different positions come into play on what do you want out of this experience? What do you each desire? What do you each need? And of course, you can do more than one.

43:29
I just love that I love I think I think the the piece that just I mean, drop the mic for me if something that you just said was at, you know, a quickie? Yeah. So suffice it, it’s sufficient. It satisfies the need in the moment maybe, but does it nourish? Does it cause that connection? Does it grow the intimacy and I love that, especially as a wife to hear and remember and recognize, you know, especially I would say, you know, a lot of my listeners are the low libido wives and the higher drive husbands, that’s who I attract, because that’s, you know, what I live and, you know, especially for a wife who, who’s like, Okay, I want to love my husband well, but also I want to be fully nourished and you know, rejuvenated through a God given gift of this, this opportunity in front of me. I mean, is that what you were getting out there?

44:28
Absolutely. It’s recognizing that particularly with women, God designed your body for sexual pleasure. Um, your listeners all know this, that while the male sexual organ has a couple of different functions a female sexual organ clitoris as one and that’s for sexual pleasure. And so why is when when you want to experience sex to its fullest at his have an orgasm. That’s not sinful, and it’s not selfish. All you want to be is who God created you to be And that’s as holy and sacred as being a woman who wants to teach the Bible, who wants to raise kids who wants to build a business, or who wants to get water to villages that don’t have it in Africa. It’s what God created you to do really enjoy this with your marriage, there’s a reason God created you. So you want to be able to go back and enjoy that. But you also recognize they’re just different kinds for her, there was this immediate thing and, and here since I don’t have that so many ways, Bella, what I so appreciate about me. So in this area of our life, there’s just have never been any power struggles for whatever reason. She just got it. And so sometimes I think when I would travel a lot, and the kids were young, and when I’d be traveling, where I’d have to get up like three or 4am, and I just be packing, she would almost insist we are going to sleep to get and I think Anna, you know, just kind of rather get some more sleep. She said, No, you’re not going on this trip trip. It was just her thinking. She says I want to, I just want us to connect. And then sometimes, you know, particularly when I’m young, I want wives to get this, it does usually change. I don’t want husbands to be mad. Some husbands say it hasn’t changed for me. But it’s a whole different thing for me. I just turned 16. And it was for me my 20s and my wife’s sensitivity Bella, when sometimes she would go and I’m getting flirty and suggestive. And she just go, do you just really need me right now? Don’t say, yeah, I really do. And, you know, she takes the gratitude, I feel valid, because I wanted to be a man of integrity. Now at least that I’ve had a thing where for her, it’s always been easy. If I’m pleased, she’s pleased, alright. It’s always been a dual thing. It’s always been I don’t want to give too much information. But it’s so she knew there’s the payoff for her as well. But I just appreciated her saying, You know what? I think we just need to go have sex. Yes. And so when she says to me now at this stage in our life, okay, we’re having sex tonight at 930. You keep saying tomorrow, be ready. I’m like, Yeah, you know what, I’m gonna be there a want to be there for you. And so as we look back on our marriage, so for 37 years of this, just the gratitude so that if the day came, and the day will come, Bella, when we’re not able to, maybe it’s her body, maybe it’s mine, I will cherish her no less than lover no less, because I know as long as we were able to we have devoted ourselves to each other devoted our minds to each other, we’ve devoted our bodies to each other. And I just want wives to know, the gratitude. A husband can feel for his life, that she’s walked through it if he wants to walk in integrity, and to know that he’s had a wife that shares that and that she enjoys it, and that he’s doing it for her because a lot of times today, I mean, I just heard the story of a wife the other day where she was the one that really struggled with pornography, and she really appreciated her husband’s openness with her. And I’m not connecting, that you have to have sex or your spouse will cheat. Addiction is something entirely different that there’s nothing you can do or not do that that puts in I don’t want to make it an obligation, then it’s creepy, instead of an invitation. We’ve never had that dynamic in our marriage. But just I don’t want to lessen the gratitude that a wife feels when a husband says, You know what, I really desire this. You’re the only one that that God says it’s good with his wasn’t let’s go do that.

48:39
That’s right. That’s right. And you know, I really feel honored that you said, because I’m talking to a wise woman, I’ll talk you know, and then you you share that, here’s why that matters to me, is because I recognize that in my own work as well. There is a an I say this only with hesitation on my husband will listen to this and he might tell me to take it out. So we’ll see. But there is we as women have to be very careful to not be immature. To see this with immaturity. I think it’s so important that we see our husbands as God designed them in certain ways. And I think your wife, you know, making sure this was a priority regardless if she wanted more sleep, even if you felt you needed to connect in order to be united, even when there’s 1000s of miles apart, you know, there there is a an utter that is maturity. I mean, that is wisdom. And I just want so badly you know, for for for wives to to catch that in so many women are and they’re catching it and it’s just incredible. We were just on a call with some women with this, these incredible breakthroughs just in credible eyes being opened and you know, and I just hope a wife listening here’s Gary’s heart. He loves his wife. And and she has and you know one thing I we have some mentor friends of ours, they’re just incredible couple, but they always say, you know, belah you wouldn’t be able to do your work if it wasn’t because of your husband? And I’m like, yeah, no, that’s absolutely right. And I just wonder if you would feel the same way with your, with your wife?

50:28
Yeah, absolutely. And, and then let me add to the husbands who are listening this the Wiser that husbands it’s a lot easier for a wife to be that way. If she knows her pleasure comes first. God just gave me a brain where I literally get more pleasure seeing Lisa pleasure than out of my own. My own is wonderful. I think God for it. But I don’t think anything gets a healthy guys excited as an excited wife, who’s enjoying herself. And then he’s satisfied at the end. Because ultimately, that’s what I was going for with this book, Bella. And I think Deborah is well, not just the sexual pleasure, but but let me give us a silly story that explains what we’re going for. We were on a cruise. Our kids were young, we shared a cabin with our two daughters. Have you ever been on one of those cruise ships?

51:19
I haven’t know. Well, the interior

51:21
count, which is a mistake if you do it many years, save up more money, get a balcony. It’s just not worth it. So but with my parents and my extended family and so the kids are in the cabin with you and they’re sleeping 20 inches from the bring these cabins. And they were just a little too old. For us to pretend that they wouldn’t here or No, it just would not have been kind. And then the cruise line gives them key cards, we can’t walk them out of the room, right. And so you’re on this romantic vacation. You’re you’re sailing from Miami, as the sun is setting, you’re playing reggae music, everybody’s in beach clothes, you’re in the water. I mean, it really is designed for romance. And then you’re sleeping in a cabin with your kids, my son was with his cousin. And so the whole time, we just wanted to act like a married couple one time, we finally constructed a plan on the last full day of the cruise. My wife is a very healthy eater, she may be the healthiest eater in the world. And so there are certain recipes we don’t usually go to but there was one restaurant on the boat that had a line is called Johnny Rockets direct. It’s a chain, and they had hot dogs and hamburgers and milkshakes. And the reason it worked presses cut, it was the only restaurant that had a line people are waiting to get in. And so we got in line, I told the kids, your mother and father have an errand to run, which was true. And remember that the key guys, I just want to make it clear, you will not leave this line until we get back because we don’t want to lose our place. And they got it. I said right now if you get to the front of the line, and we’re not bad, go ahead and sit down. You can order whatever you want. If you try to find us you might go up that staircase will come down this staircase will miss each other. Aren’t we all really hungry is paid and we got it. So right now if you finish your meal, it melts everyone but I go you can you can get any dessert you want. If you want to banana split, you want to fly, I will buy you this boat. You just promise me. You’re gonna stay here until we end. And they did and we laughed about it. I don’t remember what happened in that room with my wife. I wouldn’t tell you if I did. Here’s what I do remember that night, sitting across from my wife and the smiles we shared. We did it. Nobody knows. It was fun. We enjoyed each other. And I love those private marital smiles where and I don’t want to sound sacrilegious. But I say as he was a pastor, a couple sitting in church on Sunday morning, man if they knew what Saturday night was like, you’re at you’re at a at a family reunion. And they’re saying oh man didn’t we have a great I just love that private thing that God makes possible in marriage that we can enjoy each other and, and you out with the kids. And you do it. And that’s what I’m going after with this. But I want to create those little smiles, husbands and wives. They it’s they share it. It’s sacred. It’s private. It’s intense. It’s wonderful. And I think it’s sacred and holy. I think it honors God. I think it builds their marriage. I think it changes the atmosphere of the kids home. And so we just want to use a book that takes out the roadblocks that keeps people from thriving sexually, and then gives them some creative ideas to really take it to the next level.

55:00
Wow, Gary. Amazing. Amazing. Okay, well, one. One final question before we wrap. Um, will you have it on audiobook,

55:10
it’s on audio already. I gotta tell you the hardest book ever recorded, Deborah said the same thing. It’s one thing to write these words. It’s another thing to speak it out loud. So if you want to hear it an audio, I read my chapters, Deborah reads hers. But it is available on audio and you could listen together. I do stress that togetherness. I think it’s great for husbands and wives to listen to together so you can stop. Is that like that for you? Do you think you would like that? No, I really wouldn’t. But maybe I’d like this. And then also, let me say you have a wide range list. This really is for married couples or couples almost married. Because it’s explicit. We’ve had a lot of married couples say, Man, this ramped me up. Because of the stories the other couples share. I’m just speaking, I care about your heart integrity before God if you’re listening, so if you’re single, I don’t, I’m not a prude. But I don’t want to you to invite temptation into your life, I think this will get you thinking, and your body revved a little bit. So be careful that you’re single, and maybe wait till you’re married or right before you’re married. So

56:24
that it doesn’t make you know, thank you for saying that. Because you’re right. We do have singles that listen in preparation. I love that. And I love the encouragement of listening as a couple. And because this, this is a podcast, people love to listen, and so their listeners, so they would prefer to listen than read any day. So I am excited for that. And you know, I haven’t read the book yet. So the more I hear about it, this is just it’s such an exciting and exciting tool and just opportunity for for Yeah, Revelation, revival and intimacy. It’s just phenomenal. Gary, I love to I would love to ask if you would, kind of visualizing a person listening, and I’ll kind of let you go from there. But if you would pray for the listeners, um, however you feel led, would you be willing to do thank you. Yeah.

57:23
But I thank you for creating us as male and female. I thank you for creating us with bodies. I thank you for creating sex as it is the way that we can enjoy each other and honor each other and cherish each other and what it does to our marriages afterwards. And something that’s such a powerful tool of intimacy, we know your enemy wants to destroy and wreck and pervert. And I just pray that your spirit would cause us to rise up. The couples listening would say we will claim this land we want to reclaim this area of our marriage for some, there might need to be some real deep healing for abuse or damage from a prior marriage or, or sex before marriage. But your spirit is more than capable of doing that. Lord, it might be a misunderstanding of your word, not understanding how you embrace and celebrate and bless this and even give us tips in your word to increase the joy of it might be relational issues, Lord, where we’re just there’s issues of control or manipulation, selfishness. But it might just be physical issues that we just need strength that you created us with bodies, you will help us learn how to control our bodies and use our bodies to please each other. Now there it also just to refresh that we could learn in an appropriate way from a community ideas that others have or whatever couples listening need, I just pray that you would bring that to them. So they could have those smiles and more not just smiles with each other. But looking up to you and saying thank you for creating me to be a man or a woman. Thank you for calling me into marriage. Thank you for letting me experience this. And that would be a glimpse to them of your kindness, your goodness. Because this is all about you. This is all what you make possible so they would be worshipers to be grateful to you. They would sing your praise Jesus name. Amen.

59:35
In Jesus name, amen. Fairy this has just been awesome.

59:41
Thank you, Val. I was looking forward to this I so glad you said you wanted to because I do. I do look at you as a sister and I’m that similar version, a similar vision and passion. And I just want to listeners keep keep listening. I love what I hear. I think you’re getting great biblical content and promise practical help and so I will keep listening as Well

1:00:13
Gary, I just so appreciate this, my goodness. And you’re clearly know what you’re talking about. So I hope the listener will read or listen to married sex. I’ve actually got a team member who’s already started reading it and she’s just like, oh my gosh, this is so good. And, and I have been reading another of his books and another team members reading another of his books. So I just encourage you to, to check out Gary stuff. He’s really got wisdom and a heart after the Lord. And if you’re a listener and you want insight or information about our programs, you’re welcome to check out to let your marriage calm. And you can find out about our accountability based live programs and to actually help you Yeah, see transformation in your own marriage. So you can just go to delight your marriage.com for that information. Alrighty, God bless you. I look forward to speaking to you next week.