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From a wife who saw sex as a chore to a woman who feels free and enjoys frequent intimacy in her marriage. How did she get there? Well, it didn’t happen overnight, but Melanie was able to come to place where her past didn’t define her marriage anymore. And she was shocked to find God wanted her to find freedom in a place she had never known. Listen in to discover how God transformed her heart and made her sexually free.

Melanie Lloyd blogs at awaken-love.net

Scripture/Quote:

• “I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten– the great locust and the young locust, the other locusts and the locust swarm — my great army that I sent among you.” Joel 2:25

You’ll Discover:

• How Melanie came into her marriage with sexual baggage, as we all do, and how that grew into resentment towards her husband
• How she wanted a deeply in love marriage but she felt guilty of her past and how she saw her intimacy
• The journey God led her through to healing
• How a Bible study revealed the lie she had believed that was keeping her from enjoying freedom in sex
• How growing in our relationship with Christ grows us in our marriage too

Books/Resources Mentioned:

• Path To Sexual Healing : Bible study surrounding intimacy in marriage
• Intimacyinmarriage.com
• hotholyhumorous.com
• themarriagebed.com
• Delight Your Husband: The Christian Wife’s Manual to Passion, Confidence & Oral Sex

Tweetables:

• We weren’t feeling known to each other in deep ways and we weren’t connecting to each other in deep ways.
• I really wanted more. I wanted everything in his life to be influenced by our love.
• I struggled with the lies that I couldn’t have freedom because of my baggage.
• We’ve had a 180 degree shift in our marriage bed and in our relationship.
• Any time I go deeper with God it always positively impacts your marriage
• Sex is this marital glue that covers our marriage
• Am I requiring my husband to earn my favor or am I unconditionally loving him?

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

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Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:19
Hi there, and welcome. Thank you so much for joining me on the delight your marriage podcast. If this is your first time listening, I want to say, welcome. This is a safe place to talk about sex and intimacy, and the hard stuff and the good stuff in marriage. So, welcome. Today is a wonderful topic, about your sexual journey. We all have one, we all have baggage that we bring into marriage, regardless of what extreme yours might be, whether it’s really conservative or really not. I mean, we all come from a broken world. And so we’ve got baggage that we bring into the marriage. And today I want to share Melanie Lloyd’s story with you. And before I do, I just wanted to give a shout out to someone that is on my Facebook group. If you haven’t heard about the delight your marriage Facebook group, you’re welcome to join. It’s just for wives to talk about intimacy and marriage, and how to make their marriages better. And of course, intimacy Affects Emotions, and mental and it affects everything. So. So that’s what we talked about. But anyway, someone I’m going to keep her name anonymous, but she said, I’ve been married with my husband for 13 years, we were married at 20 and 21. So we’ve grown a lot together over the years, we have three children, and we’re also new foster parents. So life is a little crazy right now. We’ve had our ups and downs in our marriage, but it’s mostly been good. However, since I started listening to the dy M podcast in November, my marriage has been transformed into an amazing marriage, the kind I always dreamed of. In December, I was so amazed by the change in my marriage, I felt God calling me to open up to friends from church. And it was definitely from God, because I tend to be very private person. So we now have open talks about your podcasts, your changing marriages for the kingdom. Thank you, belah for putting it all out there. Well, praise God, I’m so grateful. And this brave woman who gave me the go ahead to share it on the podcast. So that’s why I’m sharing it. But I am just so grateful for you taking the courage to not only implement the things that you listen to, because that takes courage, but also to share it with other wives that may need some help. And we all do we all need inspiration for our marriages. This is not an easy gig. Look at the statistics. You know, we all know that it’s, it’s something we need God’s help on. And we need wisdom and instruction. And that’s and that’s why we do this. So thank you again, for sharing that. Okay, well, let’s dive into Melanie’s story. And again, she gives the very most important first steps and kind of a guide into how to become fully really sexually free in your marriage. It’s a journey, but it’s so worth it. Alright, let’s go ahead and dive in. Alright, welcome back to light your marriage listener. I am thrilled that you’re here. Thank you for joining me. And today I’ve got a special guest, Melanie Lloyd from awaken hyphen, love dotnet. That’s her website. And she’s got some wonderful material there talks a lot about sexual intimacy and marriage. And she’s got wonderful insights she’s going to share with us today. But welcome, Melanie, how are you today?

3:37
Thanks for having me. I’m doing great today. I’m really excited to talk with you.

3:41
Yay, me too. I am really excited to hear what’s gonna unfold today. So would you go ahead and introduce yourself share a little bit about your family and what your day to day life is about?

3:54
Sure. Um, so I have been married to my husband Brian for 13 years. And you know, we make a great team. He’s very confident and decisive he, you know, can cut to the core of an issue and make a decision and move on. And he’s kind of the big picture guy and I am the small details, project oriented. One in our relationship, I’m definitely more quiet to the deliberate decision maker where I want to know all my options, do all my research before I push, go on something. And so I think we balance each other out pretty well in, you know, helping each other with our weaknesses and also affirm each other’s strengths. So we my husband, I actually we met at work about 15 years ago, we started working at the same place and I like to tell this funny story that you know, we worked at the same place for three years without ever talking to each other, even though our offices were like two doors away from each other for a while, because I thought he was married because we had a picture on his desk of what I thought was his wedding, um, and it took a long time for me to find out that no, that was actually his brother’s wedding and he’s an identical triplet.

5:11
Oh my gosh, right. So

5:13
are yours. I that hey, this guy, man, I don’t think too highly of him cuz he’s married and doesn’t even wear a wedding ring. Oh, yeah. Turns out he was totally available the whole time. Darn it. No,

5:31
I was totally his fault, though. He could have easily, you know, had a even a sign on there. I’m a triplet. Like, you just can’t lead people to think you’re married when you’re not.

5:42
Right. You just you don’t go there. And you’re like, oh, wait, maybe he has a brother looks exactly like to. But

5:52
this poor mom, that’s unbelievable.

5:54
Oh, and then they have an older brother. So yes, his his his role is She’s a delight. Now, I’m not sure what the early years were like.

6:04
We were talking about parenting before and how it shapes you and changes you into a into a better person. And I think having triplet boys can only changed you into being better somehow through the, through the fires.

6:17
Yes, definitely patient more patients of my husband and I, we have two boys, we have a 10 year old and a seven year old. And you know, they are as opposite as night and day as well. Our oldest is very rational. And he’s very slow to warm up. He enjoys quiet, he wants to know all the rules before he enters the game. And he kind of just has this amazing memory where he category izes all of life. And then my younger son, and he just embraces life, he’s full of joy. He loves everyone. And, you know, he’s like, why do we need rules, let’s just go and have fun. And so I learned a lot from him because he just displays empathy and, and a freedom in his life to you know, to dance and be creative and just embrace what comes to him. And so it’s really fun to see them interacting and challenging each other, to grow in different ways too. So I love I love my boys, they’re such a blessing to me. But like my kids go to a university model school. And so that means that they go to school a couple of days a week, and then they do their work at home the other days a week. And so that certainly impacts what my day to day life looks like. Yeah, so they, they are insanely early risers. And we’ve tried anything to change that, but we can’t. So now we embrace it. So we are family time in the morning, before my husband goes to work, we’ll have a family breakfast and all hang out together. And then on the days that they’re at home, you know, I’m doing schoolwork with them and having fun with them. And then on the days that they go to school, I’m enjoying a more extended quiet time with the Lord and I’m working, you know, on the awaken love ministry, I love to take time to find some refreshment with a girlfriend, whether I’m going for a walk so we can talk or you know, meeting someone for lunch and then just kind of rushing around trying to check off those necessary to do’s that, you know, wife and a mom need to get done when she has time to do those. So that’s kind of what our life looks like. Both of our boys are into fencing. And so the sports not building and I’m shuffling them around me they don’t build fences as a hobby. Not yet. No, but I’m sure soon that’ll be a side job. That’s right. That’s taken into practices and tournaments. And

8:53
yes. Yeah, that’s very cool. My brother did fencing for a while. So I’m a little familiar. And that’s, that’s not easy sport. That’s, um, and it’s also not common. So you can’t just like pick up with any of your buddies and do it. It’s you got to really kind of have practice buddies that you do it with. That’s cool.

9:08
Yeah, yeah, they’re pretty passionate about it.

9:12
You will. So you shared a little bit about you and your husband personalities. So I want to ask you about and of course, you know, this whole podcast is about encouraging and inspiring wives to live in wholehearted intimacy in their marriages. So it’s, it’s kind of that’s the purview of what we do here. And so we kind of put ourselves in the shoes of our guests to try to understand marriage in a different way and understand it by someone who’s done it successfully and figured out tools and keys that we can implement. So I would love for you to share, just to start off that inspirational train, kind of share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you.

9:50
You know, there’s um, in Joel God talks about the locusts and Joel 225 has been meaningful to me for a number of years. yours, it says that, then I will make up for the years that the swarming locusts has eaten the creeping locusts, the stripping locusts and the non locusts. And that was meaningful to me when I first pursued a relationship with Christ when I was 20. Because I felt like God could redeem my past that all of those years of me not regarding him would not go to waste. But even more recently, that’s gained a new meaning to me, as I, I recently went through a Bible study called Path to sexual healing to kind of work through more of my, my baggage. And that was the first time that I noticed that, you know, in general, when, when he’s talking about these locusts, he’s talking about different one. So you know, he’s talking about the great locusts and what was left than the young locust ate, and then what was left by the young locusts, then, you know, other locusts ate. And I think, it struck me that there was different types of damage from different types of locusts, which made me think about how easy it is for us to just be torn down, you know, and to go into some downward spiral as a result of circumstances or lies, we believe, but how God can redeem all of that, that his redemption is so detailed, that he can redeem all of the different types of, you know, experiences or damage that we have in our past?

11:24
Yeah, that’s a wonderful insight. His redemption is so detailed. That’s beautiful, because it, you know, just just like this verse talks about that you, he’s gonna make up for those years for those different tragedies that you suffered. Yeah, that’s wonderful. I love them. I’m excited to hear more about your story and how this fits into that. So would you share about a difficult season or struggle in your marriage that you know, that affected you all and and how you came through it?

11:56
Yeah, I really wanted to share today about how God transformed me from being a wife, who was disconnected from sex and saw it as a more of a to do a task and obligation to my wife, who is free and finds refreshment in, in sexual intimacy with my husband, and it kind of walk you through what that journey was like? Yeah, that’s awesome. Great. Well, you know, I really been blessed by a great marriage. And despite entering it with a lot of baggage from my youth was, you know, baggage that was consensual, but also some baggage that was non consensual, that kind of tweaked my perspective of, you know, what healthy relationships look like, or what God’s intentions for sex really were. And so, you know, we came into marriage as a team. And really, we could tackle anything together, you know, side by side, we were really strong. We were great friends, but for years, I felt like intimacy was an area of weakness for us. Physically, because of frequency, you know, we weren’t coming together frequently enough for it not to feel like we were starting all over again. Every time there was that Yeah, I hear that awkwardness, you know, that, huh? Oh, can I Is it okay to share myself like this with him. But I think with that comes the emotional and the spiritual weakness where, you know, we weren’t really feeling known by each other in deep ways. And we weren’t connecting with each other in deep ways. And, and I knew a lot of that was due to my baggage that I was in most emotionally disconnected. I had no expectations that sex was a good thing, or anything that had, you know, something that could positively contribute to my life. But looking back now, I can see that, you know, lacking that emotional and spiritual intimacy with Him, made it really easy for me to become resentful toward him, and to assume self question wrong motives about him. And you know, it’s only now that I can see that I was attributing traits and character qualities to him that we’re not him at all, and how fair that was for many years in our marriage, for me to kind of operate through that lens, rather than seeing him as the man that God created him to be.

14:25
And I want to ask you just so two things, I want to point out one thing you said basically, when there wasn’t frequency, it feels like you’re starting over each time you do make love and I think that’s so true when we kind of get in this rut of it not happening very often than it is that it’s just really difficult to bridge that gap again of like, okay, let’s, let’s get into this again, let’s, you know, strip our clothes and ourselves and who we are and joined together but when you’re in kind of a, a run of frequent sex you it’s so much easier you’re just like in it. It’s it’s you know, you’re right Ready to go? It’s so much easier. So I love that insight. And the other thing I wanted you to expound about is, you know, you were attributing certain characteristics to your husband that weren’t necessarily true. But that’s how it felt in the moment. Could you just share a little bit more? Because I think a lot of women can relate to that?

15:16
Yeah, I think I definitely was quick to assume that he wasn’t prioritizing me. Even in the little things, right? If like, hey, on the way home, could you stop and get some milk, and if he forgot to get the milk, while instead of seeing that really as, like, Hey, he’s, he’s a busy guy. And he sincerely forgot in he, you know, he’s upset with himself that he forgot, because he wants to take care of our family. It was, well, you know, I’m sure you didn’t think about it, because you’re not thinking about me during the day, don’t care, you’re not here to help me. And not that our conversations were necessarily that direct. But it was, those were the tapes that I was playing in my head of, well, I guess I can’t trust him, because I can’t trust him with even these small things. You know, I guess I can’t open up and share who I really am with him. Because I can’t even trust them to do a chore that I asked him to do. Or so I think that as women, it’s so easy for us to, to start scaling things up in our minds, and just going through instead of capturing our thoughts, and really, you know, determining what is true and what is not. And, um, I mean, I don’t think at the time at all, I realized that I had this underlying distrust or resentment toward him. And I think it took many years to where, you know, our, our connectedness and our intimacy grew to where I saw that be released and go away, and then I recognize its absence and the impact.

16:57
So when you talk about this, being absent, is that because your intimacy grew stronger?

17:05
Absolutely. You know, I, I was definitely at a place where I wanted more connection with him. Because I had no question that he loved me, I no question that he’d be faithful to me that he would take care of me. And I knew he was a man of integrity and a gentleman, he’s very steady. And I don’t take that for granted. But I really want to know more. You know, I wanted like in Song of Solomon and chapter eight, verse six, it says, place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm, like I wanted everything in his life, to be influenced by our relationship and everything in my life to be influenced by our love. Like I wanted everyone to know that I was his, I wanted our love to be that mighty flame. And, and I felt like instead that we had this very reliable and civilized love, here, but I wanted to know that he couldn’t get enough of me, and that we could be just crazy with abandon in our time together. And so I really felt torn, because I knew that I desired these things. But at the same time, I felt like that deeper connection, and that, that really having intimacy in marriage, the way that God intended it to be that that wasn’t allowed for us because I didn’t deserve it. I didn’t. I didn’t deserve God’s full blessing because of my past. And I felt guilty that my husband suffered the consequences of my sin like sin that I committed, even before he came into my life. And I was very hesitant to even ask him if he knew that, like, I didn’t want to talk to him and ask if he knew that there could be more because I knew the blame would be placed on me, at least in my mind. That, you know, I don’t think he actually would have blamed me at all. That’s not who he is. Because he’s accepted me wholeheartedly. But I struggled with those lies of, you know, I can’t, I can’t have freedom, because of my past. And so God took me with my baggage, and helped me work through to get into a different place, where I mean, we’ve had a total 180 shift in our relationship, you know, in our marriage and but also just in our marriage, where now I’m able to see that sex and intimacy and that deep connection goes way beyond physical aspects, that goes toward my thought life and my ambitions and my spiritual life. And you know, that God really did design sex for husbands and wives to enjoy. It’s not just something for me to do for him.

19:50
Mm hmm. So yeah, I love that you said it goes way beyond your, you know, your physical self. It goes into your spirit and your heart and your emotion. and your thought.

20:01
So I feel like when it for God to move me to this place of new understanding, it was a fairly long journey, it didn’t happen overnight. And I know God’s healing can come in an instant, or it can come over a span of years. And he’s been working on me for a really long time. But have now in hindsight, on the other side, when I look back, I see that he really started working on me, by working on my relationship with him that he drew me in closer to him, before he ever started talking to me about my relationship with my husband. And, and the thing that I noticed first was that he sort of creating a meat a heart of appreciation. In Texas, the legislative session meets every other year. So for six months, it’s really intense. And then you have 18 months of a lighter load and my husband’s involved in the legislative session for his job. And so that was always a cycle for us in our marriage, where, you know, just for six months, we know that we’re going to grow distance, and then we’ll just repair it at the end of that six months. And after several years, we decided like, there has to be a better way than that, right? Like, you don’t just intentionally say it’s fine for us to grow apart from each other. And we’ll just fix it later. And so during one legislative session, and God put it on my heart to choose appreciation, and to keep a list of all the things that I was thankful for. And I mean, it was it became a very long list over the course of that six months from, you know, the elderly man who saw me at the grocery store with a toddler and a baby strapped to my chest, who says, I’ll take your cart for you, oh, thank you, or, you know, at a time when I really couldn’t get out of the house very easily, because I had two littles and my husband was really busy at work. Now I had a friend who cleaned out her closet and brought me a bag of hand me down clothes. And as I just got a whole bunch of new clothes, and I didn’t even have to go to the store. So I think that that led me to deeper intimacy with God, because I saw how he was caring for me in very detailed and specific ways. Yeah, and so that deeper intimacy, and gave me the security to go deeper with my husband. And, and I’ve seen God do that multiple times over the course of my relationship with my husband, even when we were dating, you know, we had gone on just a few dates. And in my quiet time, I specifically heard God saying to me, you can trust him. And that was so important to me. And I think I went back to that many times as we were dating of No, no, I need to keep investing, I need to keep revealing more of who I am. And you know, and taking those scary steps in, in becoming closer to someone because God told me that I can trust him. And so, you know, anytime I go deeper with God, it always positively impacts my marriage. Hmm, yeah. Okay, the next step that I now can see God, working in big ways in my life is I went through a Bible study on forgiveness. And I had no intentions of this addressing, you know, my sexual past at all. But it it did in a very big way, where I was able through the course of that study, and what I learned to acknowledge the lie that was really holding me back from experiencing everything God intended with my husband. And I had felt that I was marked by my past and, and I found that his truth is that I’ve been washed clean. And if he had washed me clean when I had repented for my sins in the past, and it was really me that was holding me back because I needed to let go of that, that I needed to embrace his forgiveness and walk in the freedom that Christ had offered me, as I was experiencing the completeness of God’s forgiveness. That strengthened me to move on to the next step in the journey.

24:13
Yeah, that’s awesome. So if I’m understanding the story, so far, it’s started out as really a chore to have sex and it wasn’t a connecting thing for both of you. You didn’t necessarily feel fully connected, you didn’t feel fully embraced and cherished as a wife, and you desired this fiery intimacy, this passion, this love and so there was times where you would get super separate distance because of his job and these requirements and some things that really were vital to this transformation was growing in your relationship with the Lord him drawing you closer to him, allowing you to see that he’s taking care of you through everything that you’re going through in your life. And yeah, how did things shift from there?

24:54
You know, once I got to a place where I realized that I was forgiven and set free That really gave me a desire to explore God’s design for sex. Because I had to replace all the lies. In my head, I used to replace all of those old tapes, with his truth and with a newness of what it is that I’m really supposed to be walking in. And so, um, where do you go to find good information about cars designed for sex? There’s not a lot of places and it’s scary to Google that.

25:27
Oh, my gosh, yes. But

25:30
But I ended up you know, finding no J. Parker’s blog. Yeah, holy and humorous. And Julie Siebert of intimacy and marriage and the fire lease of a marriage bed. And I just read and I read, and I read, and I would, I would follow the links to the other articles. And one of the articles that I read actually linked me to Ruth fuses, who had, you know, who’s who created the awakened love ministry, who I’m now partner with. And so most of my reading, like the biggest, the start of the reading, I guess, the biggest indulgence in the reading was when my my two boys and my dad and I went on a road trip. And I had a lot of time to read, you know, I read on the phone in my car, while my dad was driving, I read at night after my kids went to sleep. And I really grew and in my understanding of what God wanted for my marriage, you know, from from seeing broader information about what, what are God’s boundaries, what is God’s design, and then praying about, you know, what does that look like, in my specific marriage. And as my understanding grew, my confidence grew. And as my confidence grew, my desire grew. And I feel like that’s really when I did have an awakening. And everything changed. And when I came home, there was a new wife, you know, there, my husband met a new Melanie and, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that while we were on that trip, my husband was at home, remodeling our bedroom, or, you know, he was redecorating it, he painted it, he built us a headboard. And so I came home to this new bedroom, and, and he came or when I came home, he received this new wife, and it just, it just all fits together, right? Because our room is our oasis. It’s our in Getty to get away and be refreshed with our spouse. So yeah, I think it’s easy to think that, you know, I came home and told my husband like, hey, like, we should have sex a lot more. You know, let’s, let’s get on that. But right, it wasn’t necessarily that smooth of a transition, you know, my husband was really confused. And I think it took time for him to trust that this wasn’t a fleeting, you know, a fleeting thought that was I really, what I really available, and did I really want to grow with him. And it was a time that required a lot of communication, and grace and patience with each other. Because it I wonder like, why isn’t he ravaging me like, it’s I said, 24/7 Anytime, you know, but even it started some really great conversations, because you have to have tough conversations sometimes to get through to the other side, and just understood having a better understanding of what did each of us desire. And what did we think this was supposed to look like? And how are we going to invite God into this aspect of our marriage, but through working together, sex really became holy and emotional and enjoyable and refreshing. And, and I found that it became something that I craved, that when I, you know, I noticed the distance when there was an emotional distance between my husband and I noticed it so much quicker. Or when I had a really tough day, I wanted to turn to Him for refreshment and comfort. And I think that truly is God’s design for marriage.

29:08
Yes, yes. And I love that you said, your understanding. So you grew in your understanding, and that grew your confidence. And I think about confidence in bed because it’s all so often it relies on what we understand either about ourselves about our spouse about the sex act in general, it’s not. It’s not something that we can just flip on and flip off. That’s, that’s a process. That’s a journey that God wants you to go on, because he has this for you. He has amazing intimacy in your marriage that he wants you to enjoy because it’s that’s part of this whole process of becoming one becoming unified, becoming the marriage that He desires for you. And I love that and I love that you also shared that, you know, through this process. And as you talked about earlier that you had to do some scary things and some things that weren’t comfortable and I would love for you to expound on that a little bit for for wives that are out there and like this, that’s just not me. I mean, how did you kind of move past that? You know, I’m this, you know, very, you know, holy wife, I don’t do that sort of thing. Like, how did you move past that?

30:15
You know, I think that it took me understanding that, um, you know, sex is this marital glue that God gave us to connect with each other, and that he wants, like, he desires it, you know, we can go to Song of Songs and ethey, you know, on their wedding day, and God standing there encouraging them to be intoxicated with each other’s love. And so, we so often think of it how powerful sex is outside of marriage, like powerfully bad, how damaging the outside of marriage. And so it really took learning about and embracing how powerful powerful sex is within marriage, that it’s not just God’s boundaries of saying, Don’t do it, outside of marriage, that God has boundaries for us within marriage, and to keep us safe, but also to give us freedom. Like, if we know where those boundaries are, then we can run around that huge playground within that fence, and experience all sorts of creative things with our husbands that God is not limiting our pleasure that he actually intends for us to experience pleasure. And so I think it was really learning more and more about his design. And I did that by going through the awaken love. The Bible study that we offer a six week study for women. And I actually, I went through it twice, because I felt like I had so much to learn. But that was super helpful to me to figure out, you know, what are, you know, what are his boundaries? What are the reasons that he even created sex? Like, why? Why does he want us to do this? You know, how is it that my baggage is holding me back, and creating, you know, this lack of freedom in my marriage bed, and then giving me an understanding of, you know, how does my body work and giving me an appreciation for how amazing God created my body and our husband’s body and how they seem so different, but yet, they complement each other, if we’re willing to go on that journey, of figuring things out together. So if we, it took a lot of challenging conversations, no doubt, to get to that place. But I know whenever I stretch myself to go deeper with God, or to reveal something new about myself, and with God, I mean, he already knows it. But when I’m willing to go there with him, it always it always is fruitful, it always pays off in a positive way. And I was able to see so many parallels between my relationship with God, in my relationship with my husband, that I was, I got the courage to say, you know, what, if this, if me revealing myself to God makes that intimacy so much better than I need to reveal myself to my husband? And yes, it’s scary, but his enthusiasm, or his, you know, acceptance, or the love that he expresses, whenever I did open up and talk to him, that ohms spurred me on to go deeper that yes, he is a safe place for me to get to.

33:36
Yeah, that’s so true. And I, I think that, you know, a lot of times when you, as a wife understand well, when you understand your husband, and what his desires are, and how his body works, and what and fulfilling those desires, then he is freed up more and more to fulfill your desires, because he feels so fulfilled himself. And it’s kind of this wonderful exchange back and forth, that you both are learning to meet each other’s strongest needs, in marriage. And so And the coolest thing about that, I think, is that God teaches us through that, that he teaches us to be more like himself, because he made us in Him to image both male and female that both the maleness and femaleness is a reflection of God’s self. So we learn more about God when we learn more about our spouses and that intimacy in it. And I love the comparison you’re making also about trusting God and giving him more of who you are revealing yourself and sharing yourself with him. And also how that’s that’s exactly what you should be doing in your marriage as well. Yeah, so I want to dive into that just a bit more of when someone’s thinking about how do they grow in their relationship with Jesus in intimacy and knowledge and understanding. I was listening to a sermon recently and he made basically said, you know, intimacy with Jesus, when you when the word intimacy, if you look it up in the dictionary, you know, it’s like 10 down. And then it says sexual intimacy, the most of it is talking about knowledge and understanding in this knowingness. And so I think that’s like a good way of understanding intimacy that Jesus is talking about, knowing him understanding him having a, having a relationship, knowledge of each other. And, anyway, if you could give people, you know, practical steps on how to move that way,

35:30
I think it’s easier to think about how to grow in intimacy when we compare our marriage to our relationship with God, because in Ephesians, we hear that, you know, marriage really is this picture of what Christ wants with his Bride, His Church, right. And so that’s really the the measure that I use is I go back to my relationship with God of, hey, you know, when I was an immature Christian, or just a new Christian, you know, I had to write down on my to do list like, read the Bible today. Pray to you, okay. And as my relationship with God has grown, that has moved into me wanting to, you know, me not even having to remind myself like, I naturally I crave that intimacy with God, I need that quiet time. And, and I found that same in my relationship with my husband, and when we really became more emotionally in tune with each other that, you know, I do, I crave that intimacy with Him that I need to be just as connected to him, or, you know, thinking through with God, you know, God doesn’t barter with me, I don’t have to earn his affections and his love. And so how am I interacting with my husband? Am I having, you know, my requiring him to earn my favor? Am I requiring him to do something to unlock that door for me to say, okay, tonight, I’m available, or am I unconditionally loving him, but even in the midst of a conflict, you know, we could be physically intimate together. And through that, we could be comforted reminded that we’re a team and being refreshed to, you know, continue that discussion, and find a resolution in that. And so I think it’s, it’s always going back to those things of, you know, where, how does this relate to my intimacy with God, that God really wants me to be completely vulnerable with him that his design, and marriage originally was to be naked and unashamed. And so he wants me to have that same level of vulnerability with my husband, because I mean, sex does give us the gift of knowledge, we get to know our spouse in a way that no one else does. And that, I mean, that is a gift. And I think that it takes a complete perspective shift to see it that way.

37:58
Yeah, yeah, it’s a gift to intimately know your spouse. I love that. And I love also considering your relationship with your spouse as being the one that loves your spouse deeper than anyone else, just as Jesus loves your spouse. So you’re the I mean, you’re you’re Jesus to your spouse, you’re giving him the love that he so deeply needs. And so, so yeah, so thinking about do you have can I like how you said, Do you have conditions on that love? You know, well, if you do this and this and this for me, why then I’ll respond and do what you need. And then that’s not the way Jesus is with us. He’s, he’s for us. He’s, he’s gentle, he’s kind he’s unconditionally available, and, and willing to meet us where we are. And you know, your husband’s not perfect, you know, your husband is not going to be perfect, and neither are you. But you have that opportunity to bless him in ways that only you can

38:53
write. Well, I think that it’s that’s why it’s so important for us to go deeper in our relationship with God because it’s through that security that we have with him the trust that we have in God that we can unconditionally love our husbands, you know, are going to fail us from time to time. But yet we can get back up and continue to extend grace and patience and gentleness to them without harboring you know, bitterness or resentment toward them.

39:25
I think Melanie has just brought up time and time again, how important our relationship with God is to our marriage, intimacy to sex, it’s vital that we have this understanding that we are washed, clean. And I’m talking to you, dear wife, you by the blood of Jesus don’t deserve it. No, that’s not what this is about. It’s about God’s grace, that he loves you so much, that he didn’t want this to separate you from him any longer. You are washed clean. That is what’s most important, that’s the very most important step to sexual freedom is for you to have that grace and receive it from Christ. Because he gave it to you freely when he went to the cross. So thank you for spending the time to meditate on that, to accept that to recognize that as truth in your own heart, pray about that. I want to invite you on the rest of the journey to understand what God really thinks about sex and what is really happening in your body, in your husband’s body and in your body. And it’s truly a journey, it truly is to sexual freedom. And Melanie has got some great resources that she shared already. But one I want to share with you is a book that I wrote, because I’ve been through so much pain, in sexual in the sexual arena, that I really couldn’t help but share my story and what I’ve learned. And so I wrote a book called delight your husband, a Christian wife’s manual to passion, confidence, and oral sex. And I decided that this topic was so important to share is because oral sex is a very important way that your husband feels intimacy and feels loved by you. It’s very important to marriage. And I just didn’t find anything practical on the subject. And at the same time, I didn’t, I never found anything, especially in the Christian world, and most importantly, in the Christian world that was practical in a way that helped women feel free to explore truly what their husbands truly desire. And that’s what I wanted soups to nuts, how to get your heart from a place of timidness maybe reserved sadness from your past of the way you grew up and into a place of freedom. And truly taking those risks that are scary, but walking you into it step by step. And that’s what I do very practically, through that book. So I’d love for you to check it out delight your husband can go to delight your marriage.com to find it there. I think it’s just an amazing opportunity for you to engage in that journey for your sexual freedom. I think it’s important and I think God wants that for you. All right. Well, Melanie’s got a great episode at next week. Come back on Tuesday, and I will talk to you more then God bless you. I love you. I’m praying for you and your marriage.

42:16
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Amanda sat at the table in disbelief as her husband said the words she never thought she’d hear. He shared that he was no longer in love with her. “This is the man I had trusted with everything. I never once doubted his loyalty.” But through this horror, God surprised her and changed her and her marriage in ways she never would have expected.

Guest: Amanda Taylor of mendourmarriage.com

Scripture/Quote:

• Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us. Ephesians 3:20
• Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

You’ll Discover:

• How Amanda was shocked when her husband shared with her that he was not the man she thought he was.
• What God told her when she finally got the strength to ask Him…and listen.
• The process Amanda went through to not just accept it, but to stand for her marriage.
• How Amanda realized her identity had been lost in her husband’s opinion of her and she had to seek out who she is in Christ.
• How her husband’s actions didn’t have much to do with his afterall.
• How she walked step by step to have a faithful stand for her marriage.

Books Recommended:

• Motivated To Love: How To Love Your Spouse Unconditionally Through The Worst Seasons Of Your Marriage

Tweetables:

• I finally got up enough nerve to come before God and listen.
• The process was not perfect, I had ups and downs, but God taught me step by step.
• When bad things happen in our life, there’s always a way in that situation to draw closer to Him.
• Who he created to me be was lost in pleasing my husband.
• Maintaining your identity in Christ has to be your foundation.
• If you don’t know who you are, you can’t give of yourself.
• My husband’s word started to speak louder than God’s word of who I was.
• I had to trust God because He was using me as His vessel to minister to my husband.
• God said “Allow me to fill you, allow me to be your nourishment in this season”.
• You need to create your own love story.
• Instead of yelling and crying to him, I took it to God and let Him handle it.
• I asked God to open my eyes to see the small victories so I could rejoice in those things.
• When we stop doing the things that we love doing in marriage, we end up depending on our husbands for our joy.
• There’s usually something deeper going on that may not have anything to do with you.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:19
Hi there, and welcome. Thank you so much for joining me. My name is belah rose, and I’m your host on The delight your marriage podcast. If you have not yet checked out our website, there’s so many more resources and articles and freebies, I’ve got quite a bit of free stuff for you over there. So go to delight your marriage.com and check those resources out. I have a fantastic show for you today. I’m really excited to share it with you. Amanda has just an amazing story about her marriage, if you can imagine the disbelief she felt when sitting across the table from her husband. And he says he is no longer in love with her. It’s shocking. It’s sad, it’s hard. But Amanda gives some amazing hope, what God taught her through this season and what’s happened as a result. Alright, let’s go ahead and dive in. And I’ll talk to you on the other side

1:19
All right, welcome back. delight your marriage listeners. I am really excited to have you. Thank you for joining the delight your marriage podcast today. I have Mrs. Amanda Taylor with mend our marriage. And Amanda, welcome. Thank you for being here.

1:34
Thank you. I’m so excited for being on the podcast.

1:38
Yeah, absolutely. I think this is gonna be a great conversation. Yeah. And I just the the whole theme of your website and your ministry to help marriages mend is just very cool. So I want to definitely dive into that. Before we do. Can you go ahead and introduce yourself, your family and a little bit about your day to day life? Sure.

1:58
So again, my name is Amanda Taylor, and I’m with them in our marriage. And basically our mission is breaking the back of divorce. And, you know, if you ever listen to our podcast, we always say Snap, Crackle pop, breaking the back of divorce. So we’re really passionate about that. I’m also the author of motivated to love, basically teaching spouses to stand for their marriages, and how to stand strong and love strong through difficult seasons. And see right now my family consists of myself and my husband, David, and our two dogs. We have dusty, who has a Shih Tzu and then had ginger was a boxer. So those are our babies. Right now. We are currently trying for children trying to have a baby. So definitely ladies band prayer with us for

2:46
that. Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah, very cool.

2:49
Um, and see, right now I do work full time with a state college in Florida. I’m doing project management. But by night and on the weekends. At this point, I’ll work and enjoy coaching and counseling, married couples engaged couples, those standing again, and the rough seasons for their marriages through our program overflow. And we do that via Skype and via phone, my husband and I, and my husband’s name is David David Taylor. That’s my Bay moku. And, and let’s see, as far as the parabolas, I guess a little bit about us, I mean, I’m more of the behind the scene person on your writing, and just encouraging others really, behind the scenes behind the camera. Um, I really enjoy dancing, exercising, lifting weights, and just spending a lot of time with family. Um, David is more of the front runner, you know, it’s more of the vocal one between the two of us. He’s definitely the CEO. He’s a mental health counselor. And you know, he likes to do public speaking, he loves superheroes, and I do anything motivational, you know, he loves to grow up and find different ways to help people. And so I’m just really blessed to have them as

4:07
well. I love that you share a little bit about your view and your husband’s personalities. Now, this podcast is really about inspiring, and encouraging wives to live wholeheartedly in their marriage in their intimacy. And I’d love for you to share maybe a scripture or quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years. Okay,

4:22
um, I have a couple. I know one that’s really close to my heart. Ephesians 320. God, God is able to do exceedingly, abundantly above all we could ask or think according to the power that works in us. And to me, that is a very vital concept for us to grab on to. Because I think so many times you know, we don’t really totally depend on God like we should we don’t depend on God for our livelihood. Yeah, and it’s actually his Holy Spirit within us that works through us to achieve the impossible. And so I like to keep that in front of my mind and And I’d like to make sure that I’m looking at that on a regular basis encourage myself that my foundation my real foundational passages come from of course the loves the love passages First Corinthians 13 four through eight. Of course, love is patient love is kind it is it does not envy it does not boast it is not proud. It does not dishonor others not so seeking is not easily angered it keeps no record of wrongs Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It’s all It always protects, always trusts always hopes, and always perseveres. Love never fails. Um, and you know, those passages have have just been a cornerstone for me, especially during the difficult season of my marriage. Literally, I recorded it on a voice recorder on my phone, and I would listen to it over and over again and just just feel my spirit with it in my mind. So when negative negativity tried to come in, it couldn’t stay long, because the word the word of God would pierce it. And that’s how important it was to me.

6:04
That’s amazing. I love that. That’s a wonderful tip for anyone that’s going through a tough time in their marriage. Yeah. Voice Recorder on your phone. Absolutely. Pick it up every single day. Listen to that. Absolutely. That’s fantastic. And I love I’m sure this is going to be important to your story. But I just love how intentional you you shared how you were about, about keeping positive verses in your heart and mind. And clearly these mean a lot to you and you’ve relied upon. So I just I just think you know, the word of God is so powerful, it’s living, it’s active. It’s something that we need to be using on a consistent basis using the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God or not. Don’t have the Spirit in your in your whole closet. You need to be using that. That’s right. Yeah. So that’s good. Okay, well, I want to jump into your story because I’m sure it’s amazing. So, I mean, tell us about a season of struggling your marriage and how you work through it. Yeah, take us there.

6:59
Okay, well, actually, the the most dramatic, I guess struggle in our marriage is what mend our marriage kinda was birthed out of and what my, my book was birthed out of so, um, so I’ll just take you back in the first couple of years of our marriage. It was it was a stormy time for us. You know, we have we had trouble, you know, just kind of getting started just it’s been a married couple. And I remember, just like, like I said, in the first couple years of marriage, I waking up one Sunday morning, and my husband looked over to me, you know, very seriously. And he said, Babe, you know, we’re not going to go to church today, I want to sit down and talk to you about something. And of course, you know, I didn’t know what to expect. I was nervous, kind of panicked, but I’m like, Okay, let’s sit down and talk. So he sat me down at the dining room table. And he pretty much said to me, I’m no longer in love with you. I don’t feel like I’m in love with you anymore. Oh my gosh. And of course, it felt like somebody literally punched me in the chest. And so, you know, I wasn’t gonna know what to say right then. So I kind of, you know, took it in, in my mind, I’m thinking, okay, we can get through this. You know, I’m thinking we can get through this, even though I was like, literally, like, like, in pain inside. And so, later that evening, as we were getting ready for bed, you know, something inside of me was like, there’s more to this. And I asked him before we went to bed. I said, Babe, I said, Is there somebody else? I said, is there someone else? And in my, you know, in my mind, I’m thinking, surely there’s not. This is the man who I’ve trusted with everything. I’ve never, ever questioned his loyalty to me ever. Yeah. And, you know, he didn’t say anything. And then I asked him again, he was like, well, well, actually, yes, he was like, there’s been nothing physical. But I do feel like I’m in love with another woman. And so that was the straw. That was the straw that broke the camel’s back. And I remember feeling this this screen come from my stomach. I was like, Oh, my God, you know? And I remember screaming out No, no, no. And then he you know, and the tears just coming down. And I remember getting up and going to the bathroom and being on the floor crying and saying, you know, all this is my house started to blame myself. I’m like, you know, what did I do? You know, and I was screaming and crying. And I was just so upset. And so really over the next couple of weeks, I’m really sad. And then I routed over that and I said, I really was going through, you know, I, I was feeling really depressed. I even have suicidal thoughts. Oh, my gosh, you know, I, I was talking to God, you know, and I was like, I don’t understand why, you know, because I prayed and I fasted before I even you know, was in a relationship with this man, and you gave me you gave me peace. You know, we didn’t have sex, you know, before we got married because we wanted to enter into this marriage with purity and integrity. And we did that and lower so why am I here? We haven’t even had we haven’t even had kids yet. You know, what about my babies? I was saying only And so finally, after a couple of weeks of just being in that space, you know, I got up enough nerve to actually get before give before God and lay before him and listen to his response, you know, to his response and whatever he was going to say to this. And, you know, God spoke to my heart is clear as day. He said to me, before you can become loved to others, I want you to become love to your husband. So I want you to stand and fight for your marriage. And so, you know, I sat there for a minute, and I’m thinking to myself, this has to be God, because I was in such a dark space, there was no way I could have. I could have, I could have, you know, created that in my mind. And then I knew it wasn’t the enemy, because I know the enemy wasn’t going to tell me to love my husband and trust God. And so I’m like, God, I know, this has to be you. And then there was this sense of peace that came over my body. And all I could think of was a peace, that passeth all understanding. And I said, You know what, that I said, I don’t know how this is gonna work, what it is that you’re wanting to do, but I’m going to trust you. And in that moment, I felt empowered. And I’m like, we got literally every moment, every hour, every day of this, I’m gonna have to, you know, seek you out. Because I have no idea what this looks like.

11:22
Yeah, yeah. So Wow. Well, I want to just point out a couple things that I think easily. We can find ourselves in when we’re in the midst of this horrible situation in our marriage, to point to God and be like, God, I did the right thing. I did this right. I did just what you’re supposed to do. As a Christian woman, I get this right. What I deserve a happy marriage. What happened? Yeah, you know, isn’t that what we were promised? If you do the right thing, you’ll get the right reward or something. And I think that must have been really hard to fight through. I mean, how were you? How were you not offended by God? When here You did all the things that were right. And then here, you went before him and still, you know, honored God in in this season.

12:11
You know, what, why before this happened, which is it’s kind of interesting. I was actually studying and asking God, how to love like him. I was actually in a study about that. And I will say, Okay, God, teach me what it means to a God, they love somebody. What does it mean to unconditionally love somebody? What does that really look like? Void of offence and void of expecting something, you know, loving someone, just to get something in return? You know, what does that look like? Just love and no matter what you get in return, and so I had been seeking God about that, and they literally, boom, this happens. And so it almost like connected for me. And I think that’s why like, the spirit of offense really didn’t rise up. Because it was, I could see the connection. But I guess, for me, I don’t know, I just didn’t get offended. I was deeply I was more hurt than anything. You know, more I felt I felt more deceived, I guess, than anything. I felt like God, you know, okay. Did I not hear you? Right? You know, what was this not you know, what you said, even though I felt like it was clear as day. So, like I said, I didn’t do as an offense, I was just hurt. But I said, Okay, you know, God, I don’t know what this gonna look like, the process was not perfect. I had ups and downs. But God showed me and taught me step by step how to how to stand strong, and what standing strong for your marriage looks like, in the face of something like that. And that, that journey is what my book is about, actually.

13:50
Well, I want to mention, you know, it sounds a lot like Hosea, you know, when God tells Hosea go and love a woman that’s going to be unfaithful to you, because I want you to know what it’s like to love the people of Israel. And isn’t that I mean, I just can’t wait to hear more about your story. But isn’t that amazing that God was, you know, wanted you to let you in on how to love like, he really does love us, incredibly unfaithful as we are. And then it seems that God prepared you to be given this revelation or this, you know, negative revelation, but from your husband like he prepared you he had you in a spot where you were seeking Him in a way of learning how to love like him. That’s as as as challenging as that is. I mean, if you’re listening to this podcast today, maybe God wants you to see this in a different light to see what Grace has given you in the midst of the struggle in the midst of the pain. Yeah, there’s still a grace there.

14:47
And I truly believe that, you know, um, I don’t believe that God, like causes turmoil in our life, but I think that he does prepare us because he’s does see what’s going to happen and if we trust Him, He will take us through those things and and there’s a lesson there to be learned. If he if we trust him in those things, you know, he’s powerful, you know, he gives us the choice, he gives us, you know, the opportunity to make choices in our life. But then when we make wrong choices, or when bad things happen, there’s always a way in that situation for us to draw closer to Him and learn more about who he is, so that he can heal us and bring us through that situation.

15:30
That’s so good. I love that. And now I want to know, so this happened. So God gave you some insight into what he wants from you, which is amazing, and standing and fighting for your marriage. So what did it look like? What what happened?

15:46
Okay, well, for me, one of the one of the first things that I that God revealed to me was that I lost myself in my marriage, I lost I lost Mandy, I lost Amanda. He created me to be was totally lost, you know, I’m so caught up and pleasing my husband and making sure all my eyes were dotted and T’s were crossed with, with David to where I lost sight of Jesus of God. You know, and so I just want to speak to to the ladies, the wives out there, you know that maintaining your identity, and Christ has to be number one, he has to remain the foundation. Because when you lose yourself, you know, then there’s no way that you can give in a relationship because you don’t have anything to give up. If you don’t know who you are. You can’t give up yourself, you can’t give up God, you know, because you have no idea who you are. And I think for me to read my plummeted so hard, um, you know, during the season was because, and this is another revelation that God gave me that my husband’s word has started to speak louder than God’s word in my life about who I was. Yeah, you know, so I had to, I had to regain the knowledge. And we’re really, I thought I had a relationship with God before this situation. But I really, really, honestly, I did not have a tangible relationship where I depended on God for my life for my very breath. I did not, and I think a lot of us, you know, if we’re honest, we don’t. And a lot of times we get to a place, like, when there’s a season of darkness or season of struggle, that’s the best place that we really find God. And, for me, you know, during the season, there were days, literally, I was minute by minute, sometimes I couldn’t breathe. In the beginning, I felt like I was having a panic attack, but it was literally minute by minute. And there were times where I had to declare the joy of the Lord is my strength and you’re the Lord is my strength out, you will never leave me or forsake me even into the end of the other. You know, all those different things. Yeah, in every moment, every moment that I had, I was declaring the word and I was depending on him to strength, strength, in me be my joy. Um, and yeah, it’s powerful. And then that process showed me what it meant to really give my life to God and really have a relationship with him and depend on him with, you know, with my life.

18:09
Mm hmm. I’ve heard it said that God risks offending us to, in order to draw us closer, like, the whole purpose is at risk of offending us of risk of, you know, causing us to run away, the whole purpose is to draw us closer to him. Which, you know, you see that grace in the midst of the pain and you know, and I love I love that you quoted Scripture. And that was your that was really a foundational piece of your journey here. And I just encourage a man is actually set a lot of scriptures already that that if you’re not too familiar with scripture, I’d encourage you to just type in Google the phrase and it’ll show you exactly where it is in the Bible. So if you’re new to Scripture, start memorizing these key verses. Because that’s, that’s what you need to just draw out when the enemy wants to taunt you with despair and depression and this give up feelings if you need to pull those out. But so Okay, so then so you were relying on God, you’re trusting God? No. That’s kind of funny to me. That seems so strange that you lost yourself in your marriage of doing all the right things for your husband and then he straight anyway like that just seems that seems counterintuitive, doesn’t it?

19:20
Yeah, I can, I can definitely see, see your point in that. But basically, we have to think of think of it like this, when we get into a relationship. What happens at the beginning of the relationship, you know, we are, you know, confident we are you know, doing our own thing, pursuing our own goals. We’re developing ourselves, we’re, yeah, we’re, you know, we’re finding new experiences and we’re sharing those experiences with our spouse, you know, it’s you know, it’s just, it’s you’re having new experiences together. There’s excitement, that type of thing, but I think sometimes we get comfortable in the relationship and it becomes routine and mundane. And definitely is not a routine wasn’t for anyone to go astray or anything like that. But what we did find on the other side of that season of our marriages, with David, it had nothing to do with me personally, that’s what we ended up finding out that there was an empty spot. And David from his father not being in his life early on, that there was an emptiness that he was trying to feel that only God can feel. And so, you know, hindsight, looking back, I asked me to trust Him, and and trust his process and time me because there was something spiritually that I was dealing with David on, and God wanted to use me as his as his vessel to love them, David unconditionally, even though he failed. Wow. And so like I said, all of that didn’t come out until later, you know. And of course, I battled with feeling like it was unfair, why do I have to stand? You know, and I did everything I was supposed to do. And right, but like I said, I rebuild it in the end, because I trusted him. You know, and I know some of the people I work with, you know, especially in the beginning of them standing for their marriages, you know, they like this, I really feel dumb. And this, you know, this is stupid. And why would I do this? And why would I do that. But we have to remember that God uses the weak things of the world to confound the wise. That’s what the word tells us. And then you look also at the story of Jesus, you look at how these Jesus loved us and died for us, and how he was fit on, he would be all these different things. He was hated, literally. But he said, Forgive them, Father, because they know not what they do. They don’t know. They don’t know who they are inside. They don’t know who I am. So therefore, they can’t possibly know how to treat me or how to love me, because they’re lost spiritually. Yeah, you know, those were a lot of things that, you know, God revealed to me, you know, through the sand and after the sand, and I’m so glad that that I did go through the sand now looking at it looking back, because we’ve literally been able to help and impact 1000s of lives, you know, through the book and through mend our marriage.

22:07
Yeah, yeah. Praise God. Yeah. So when you were standing for your marriage, I mean, did your husband end up having, you know, a resolve that he wanted to work through this? Or how did that work?

22:21
Okay, so in the beginning of the sound, when I pretty much told him my position. He said, All I can, you know, I’m here, but that’s all I can offer. I can’t promise you anything. I have no idea. You know what’s going to happen, but I’m here. We literally live in like roommates. I think the total amount of time, I guess, the stand from beginning to end, I guess you can say was my year, year and a half. You know, so I mean, literally live like roommates and I still did everything that I did before. Before. He told me, I still cook, I still cook dinner, I still wash clothes, I still fixes lunch and tea in the morning, all those things. And God told me to just be consistent, you know, and stay, stay doing those things, say showing love, even though you’re not necessarily getting it from him in return. And God said, allow me to feel you allow me to be your nourishment and to fill you in the season. And I did that.

23:18
Wow. And and then what was the turning point? How did things change?

23:22
Well, I mean, honestly, I just stay consistent. And I can go over, you know, in some more detail, is to kind of tell you some of the things. Yeah, throughout the fan. Like I said, David got, you know, built to me, you know, just kind of step by step, you know, things to put in place so that I kept my mind in the right in the right place. And I kept a spiritual perspective about where David was, you know, the first thing I had to do, of course, was to forgive him to literally forgive him and give him totally over to God. And trust me, and trust God, that no matter what happened, in the end, I was going to stand into thee and and trust God for it for the outcome. And that’s, that’s the, that’s the place that I got to. Um, and then, honestly, I mean, no pun intended, we have a program called overflow, but that’s pretty much what I did. You know, there were scriptures that had to do with various different, you know, emotions and feelings I was dealing with, I had a playlist of worship and praying songs that are rotated, I have messages that were encouraging and speaking about, you know, love and who God is and, and so I was literally rotating those things and filling myself with all those things on a regular basis. It was like, you know, literally, I was guarding myself so I wasn’t letting all that negativity in I mean, God even was showing me okay, you need to watch what you’re letting in your ear and you’re on gate. So you need to watch what TV shows you’re watching what movies what books, being on social media, you know, all those different things. You know, I know as women we love these loves Stories, but a lot of times it gives us you know, these, these false images of what love and intimacy looks like. Now I’m not right. I’m not saying that you can’t have a hot and steamy marriage and relationship, but what that looks like has to be between you and your husband, you need to create your own love story. And a lot of times we see these snapshots in these movies. And then we start comparing our love life to the movies. And then we get resentful, like, well, we want this, you know, right. And so I stopped, I stopped watching all those things. And and I changed, I just changed what I watched and what I listened to, and all those things. And then as far as who I had around me, you know, those who were pessimistic about my sin and about what God was leading me through, I had to cut them out of my life for a little while. And God surrounded me with, you know, brought people into my life that were, you know, optimistic and praying for me and trusting God with me. So live, yeah, I had to hit all of those corners. Um, and then lastly, going back to my first point, how I lost myself in the marriage. You know, like I mentioned to you before, I love to exercise, I love to dance, I love to do all of these things. But somehow, I just stopped doing all of that. I looked around, and I’m like, Oh, don’t do anything for me anymore. So I started taking dance classes again, I started doing Insanity and working out and feeling good about myself, you know, taking a little bit more time on myself to look good for Mandy, for me. Yeah. And, you know, and and then David started to notice that he started to notice that, you know, if he was rude, or he ignored me, or if he wasn’t paying attention to me, I was still okay, I still had joy. And, and that turned his head because he was like, Wait a minute. So what I said didn’t affect her. You know, usually, she goes and cries about it, or hopes about it or whatever. But that no, that wasn’t the case. I’m not saying I was perfect. But what was happening was I was taking those things to God, and I’m like, Okay, God, this is what I’m wrestling with. I’m giving this off to you, I’m gonna pray about it. This is the issue that we have, I’m gonna take it to you know that you handle it. Instead of crying and wailing in front of him. You know, I took it to God in prayer, and God dealt with it. So I, you know, the way I dealt with things changed, you know. And so that really started to convict this heart. And you know, and to show him that I was getting getting back to being myself for me, not just to get him back, not just to fix the marriage, I was literally changing before his eyes and becoming a better version of myself for me.

27:39
Yeah, that’s really good. I love that. I think that’s really inspiring for women to take hold of and say, regardless of what’s going on in your marriage, to trust God, and remember what God’s put in you, the gifts, the talents, the passions, the desires, the interests, I mean, God has put all those things in you for a reason to enjoy that and to and to run to that and because that’s a gift from God, that’s a that’s a way that he wants you to experience Him and His love and His fullness and, and to rely on that instead of relying and depending on your husband, for your self esteem for your self worth for your identity. Yeah, I think that’s, that’s wonderful. And this is all happening in the context of a really challenging situation of him maybe being rude of maybe him insulting or maybe being apathetic and you just want to scream at him. But But instead, you’re forgiving him and giving it to God, and letting God convict because the Holy Spirit’s the one that convicts not us wives, right. I think that’s powerful. That’s, um, yeah, so, okay, so this happened. I mean, this was a process for a year, a year and a half. And then when did you start to see things start changing?

28:49
Honestly, I started to see little victories here and there, you know, I’m, I can’t pinpoint the exact month or that point. But like, literally, I saw, I asked God to open my eyes to be optimistic and to notice and see the small victory so that I can rejoice in those things. Because even when we ate dinner, you know, at night, we still would sit down literally on the same couch with our little fold out tables and watch, you know, shows that we both liked, we maybe didn’t say much, but then we started, you know, we started laughing a little bit more together, you know, then joking a little bit more, and then having conversation a little bit more about, you know, what was going on, and then I started to see him notice me a little bit more, you know, in my lingerie when I would go to bed and you know, you know, kind of sneak me a little bit or you know, and just kind of play him off like whatever, you know, you don’t wanna whatever, you know, so and so, you know, just just progressively you know, I would see a little bit here and there, and even when I would see progression, there will be times regression. So there were times where he pulled me close and seemed like he was warming up. And there are times where he kind of pushed away where he seemed like, I don’t know about this. But one thing we ended up also finding out that he shared with me was a lot of that back and forth was in his mind, he was thinking, what if I do decide to stay? Well, things go back as they were before? Yeah, you know, and so, I was like, you know, that that was a valid thought that he was. Yeah. And, you know, the other thought is, is she just being this way, just so that I will, you know, come back to you don’t want to be back married to her or want to say, I want to say marry. And so I guess, again, because I stay consistent. Yeah. And even Of course, you know, now, I’m a different person. I mean, I’m not the same person I was before that process, things are a lot better. You know, and we get through that season, you know, and now again, we have mend our marriage and the books and the programs. No,

31:01
no, that’s really good. And anyone in that situation, I think, should certainly invest in these resources. Because it’s clear. I mean, Amanda has practical steps for how you can work towards this. And I want to ask, kind of stepping back, trying to kind of summarize, maybe the way you were before and maybe, you know, something to kind of avoid in marriages that maybe aren’t in that spot, but you want to make sure they don’t get in that spot. I mean, was there almost, I want to say, almost like a desperation, almost like this, you know, depending on your husband for who you were, like in a almost like a desperate way. Is that? Is that something that maybe you stumbled into?

31:44
Um, I think for me, I mean, I don’t know if I would say desperate, because I’m asleep, is, with most wives, if you step back and look at it, it probably doesn’t look like you are dependent on them for everything. But yeah, I think a lot of times, again, when we stop doing the things that we did, even before we got married, we stopped doing the things that we enjoy doing. We depend we end up depending on our husbands for our happiness, and for our joy. And so yeah, when they do make a mistake, then we’re crushed. But we have to understand that God, God is the only one who never makes a mistake, our husbands and just like we are, we are going to make mistakes. And we have to allow for each other to make those mistakes, and whether they’re big or small, and be able to, you know, talk about them, figure out what the root causes, you know, not get offended and just totally cast each other down and away. But see what is the root of this, because again, like I said, a lot of times, it has nothing to do with the spouse, it’s usually something deeper going on some type of insecurity, some type of, you know, mold from the past that maybe was triggered by something, and it may not even was it may not have been something that was triggered by your spouse, but maybe something that’s a job, maybe your spouse lost a job or lost a parent, or, you know, something just traumatic went on. And they you’re getting the brunt of that because you’re the closest thing to them, you know, so just, you know, being willing to step back in the moments where you want to get offended, and you know, take it to God before you lash out and say, Okay, God, what is this about before I lash out, give me some understanding, prepare me for a conversation with my spouse, reveal what’s going on, so that we can receive the deep healing, we need to move forward in our marriage.

33:32
Yeah, I love that. And, and I love you know, that thinking about marriage as a tool that God uses to make us holy, to make us more like Jesus. And when you look at this situation of like, God wanted you to be all that you were Amanda and he wanted David to be all that he is created to be. And so though this season was was so painful, and so brutal, God use that to make both of you the kind of people he wants you to be for His glory. Exactly, exactly. That’s powerful.

34:04
That created you individually for a purpose. And of course, when you join with your spouse, with your husband, you know, then he has a purpose also for your marriage. But But again, do not lose sight that there are gifts and talents that he’s giving you as an individual that he still wants you to live out as well. And I always like to ask this question, if something happened, God forbid that your spouse passed away tomorrow. Where would that leave you? Yeah, what would you do with that? Would you just be depressed and not live life at all anymore? Or would you pick up the mantle when you go to would you start living life and living and poured out to serve the Lord and to impact the world? The way he the way he wants you to with the gifts and talents that he’s giving you?

34:51
Mm hmm. Yeah, that’s really good. I mean, it’s a terrible place to be in losing a spouse but it gives you a little bit of perspective of well, what would you Do who would I be without my spouse? Wow. Well, that’s just a powerful story. And Amanda shares in the next episode coming out next Tuesday about what happened and where her marriage is now. And it’s a really amazing transformation what God has done. And so I just want to encourage you, if these things resonated with you, if you’re struggling in any area, maybe you’re finding your identity and your spouse more than Christ, or maybe you’re trusting in your spouse to give you happiness, or relying on them to give you happiness when God wants you to explore the areas that he’s already gifted and, and shared with you maybe earlier in your life of what makes you happy, and what fulfills you and what gives you joy. And maybe this is the time to explore those areas and dive in there and transform yourself for the benefit of God’s kingdom. Because it does say in the Bible, Seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you. That’s first and foremost, I think Amanda has a powerful, powerful story that she shares again the next half, next week. So thank you so much for joining me. And thank you for investing your heart and your thoughts. Just this last half hour in in what God wants for your marriage. God bless you. I hope that this has given you some hope, and encourage you today. I hope you have a wonderful week. God bless you. I’m praying for you, praying for your marriage and most importantly your relationship with the Lord. We’ll talk soon bye.

36:38
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by the show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com Ford slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Keelie Reason with lovehopeadventure.com. Have you had those times in your marriage where you feel kind of stuck? Maybe its because of external circumstances, but it just doesn’t seem to be working like it used to. Well, Keelie shares about a season in her life that caused her to have to figure out who she is and stop relying on her husband’s career for her identity. Find out how they moved through the most difficult season of their marriage and what she learned through it.

Scripture/Quote:

• This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 1 John 5:14

You’ll Discover:

• How developing your spouse’s interests may be a worthwhile pursuit
• Keelie had to realize that “all the sudden, we didn’t have the same plan for our lives” and what she did with that realization
• How we should treat our mates in the midst of challenging situations can be the deciding factor
• How we determine our identity and self-worth can make the difference in our circumstances and relationship with Christ
• What it feels like as a stay at home mom when your husband’s job takes a different turn
• How there will be seasons in your marriage where your spouse won’t meet your needs

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• Study about sticking with your marriage for just 5 years and it will be happy again, Meaning Of Marriage by Tim Keller

Tweetables:

• We all have those times in our lives when there is nothing left we can do. We can’t fix it. We just have to rely on God.
• When hard times come to your marriage, it takes a while to work through it.
• We have to deal with our spouse making their own decisions.
• There will be times in our lives that we have no clue how to handle it, but in those times we have to rely and trust in God.
• My biggest regret during that hard time, was that we were not working together.
• Draw your self-worth from Christ not other people.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:18
Hi there and welcome. This is belah rose. And I want to thank you so much for tuning in today to the delight your marriage Podcast. Today we are talking to a wife who has got wonderful insights about when the pressures on when there’s a lot of difficulty in a marriage, and how do you get through that, and she gives really wonderful insights. But I was talking to a friend who was asking me about the podcast, and I was sharing with her what the purpose is, for the podcast. And really, you know, I grew up without a good representation of marriage modeled for me by my parents. And they got divorced when I was just about 20. And the, you know, the, the marriage was really broken with lots of really bad patterns, far before they actually, you know, divorced. But so I didn’t have a good role model for marriage. And in fact, none of my friends had parents that had good marriages, I had one, basically role model of a marriage that I would aspire to have a relationship like they had, and they still have an amazing relationship, and they’re still great friends of mine, and I look up to them so much, but that’s just one. And so I think delight your marriage was, is really about understanding and peering into what a healthy relationship, lifelong commitment looks like, and how we can understand ourselves in someone else’s story, and relate to them and kind of figure out the way they’re thinking about things and how is that different from the way I’m thinking about things and, and how does their situation relate to my situation? And how can I change to be a little bit maybe make it a little bit more like them, because they’ve got things a little bit more figured out than me in this area. So again, today is not unlike that. And that’s really the purpose behind these podcasts. And I just thank you so much for taking the time to invest in yourself and in your marriage because ultimately, this is a lifelong endeavor. This is something that is not just a whim not just a fading fancy but something we want to really master and and that’s why I interview the people that I do people that are masters in these areas and they can teach us a lot so Kelly again is going to share with us Yeah, how to get through those difficult pressure filled times. So let’s go ahead and dive into what she has to say. All right, welcome back delight your marriage listener. I’m really happy that you are joining me today I’ve got an awesome guest. Her name is Keeley reason she’s from love hope adventure.com Welcome Keely. I’m so glad you’re here.

3:18
Thanks so much for having me.

3:20
Yeah, well, I’m really excited to have you. And I think this is going to be an awesome interview to hear your story and would you go ahead and share a little bit about yourself, your family and your day to day life?

3:33
Awesome. Yes, I am married to my high school sweetheart. We started dating when we were 16 Which I know isn’t really heard of very often. And we dated for five and a half years got married. We’ve been married now for 12 years. And I have three boys 10 Nine and four and I have been a stay at home mom since the oldest was about a year and I homeschool the the two older ones they’re in school right now but I homeschool the youngest and I’m bringing the two older ones home next year so pretty busy with everything going on. Yeah.

4:14
Wow three boys, huh?

4:15
Yes. No girl.

4:17
Oh my goodness. Yeah, I’ve got two boys and I feel like my husband and I are stopping with two. Yeah, even though I’m like oh, I kind of want to see if our third one would be a girl.

4:27
The same thing we got a girl I mean not a girl but a boy. Like right you want to try for the girl? I’m like we did and

4:39
and we got a lovely boy.

4:41
Got us. Another boy. Wonderful.

4:44
You know what I noticed Keeley with my guests. I noticed that a lot of the women that are ministering to women generally have boys. Oh really? Yeah. Like a lot of them. I don’t know if it’s something Like we’re you know, we, we have that desire to you know that passion for women and we’re just like, we don’t have women in our lives we need to minister to women.

5:09
I mean, I grew up with all brothers. So I’m the only girl my family. And I’m kind of used to it, I guess. Mm hmm. Wait.

5:18
Yeah, yeah, you would have to be used to it. How many boys in your family?

5:22
I have four older brothers.

5:25
Oh my gosh, that could work. You are a tough cookie. Says my mom. That’s true. I’m one to five. Also, I’ve got two brothers and two sisters, too. It’s a big family.

5:39
That’s awesome. And you get together at Christmas. It’s like, where are we gonna even hang out? Because I have any kids. There’s like 15 grandchildren.

5:48
Wow, that’s awesome. Oh, so tell us a little bit about your husband’s and your personalities?

5:55
Wow, well, I will be honest, we are absolute opposites. Really pretty funny. An introvert and I’m an extrovert, we don’t have a lot of the same interest. So it’s been pretty awesome. Because we’ve kind of had to develop the other person’s interest. So that’s, that’s always good, because you’re not interested in something but you do partake in it, because your spouse does. So it’s been pretty awesome to kind of expand and broaden our horizons. And probably the most funny thing about our personalities is that my husband is a food pantry director now. And it’s his job to get out in the community and tell everyone about the pantry and and work with people all day long people, people, people, he’s he interim pastor, too. So just people, people. And he’s such an introvert and I’m a huge stay at home. I work from home, everything I do is on the you know, internet. I’m in the online world. And I just think, Okay, God, you know why? It seems like personality wise, I would be better at this thing. And he’d be better at that. And sometimes I wonder if God put us here so that we would keep communicating and the way the other person likes it the most? Yeah, that we get a lot practicing the other person’s form of communication.

7:19
Yes, yes. I love that. So developing the other person’s interests. So what So as an example, what What things have you had to develop?

7:28
Well, my husband loves sci fi, and loves. I watched Star Trek with him. But we did just go to the new Star Wars movie. I did like a lot of shows, in science fiction, like on the Sci Fi Channel and stuff, and I’ve learned to like them more. Some of the old stuff, though, that’s just never gonna like that. That, you know.

7:55
Yeah, I agree. No offense to any sci fi fans out there.

8:02
Oh, it’s awesome. And I have several friends that love sci fi. So it does kind of helped me relate to them a little bit better to

8:10
Oh, there you go. Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, I love I love the idea of developing your interest based on your spouse. I love that. And I want to ask you before we kind of dive into your your big story about a struggling in your marriage and how you’ve overcome that. This is all about inspiring wives to live wholehearted in their marriage and in intimacy. And would you share a scripture or quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years, or even recently?

8:37
Sure. My favorite Bible verse is first John 514. And it says, this is the confidence we have in approaching God, that if we ask anything, according to His will, He hears us. And I mean, that’s been my favorite verse since probably being a teenager. And there have been so many things. In the last like three years, we’ve had a rough couple of years, that I just keep cleaning, clinging to that verse and remembering that we can have confidence in prayer and talking to God because the Bible tells us and I draw a lot of encouragement from that. Because we all have these times in our lives where we have nothing left we can do. I mean, we can’t fix it. We just have to rely on God. And we can have confidence in him because the Bible tells us that.

9:33
Yeah, that’s so true. I love that. Yep. And yeah, I would love to dive into your story about a struggle or a season that you know, stretched you guys and was a challenge and how how you overcame that?

9:49
Well, I’ll tell you, I had a hard time really coming up with what I wanted to share because I’ll just go ahead and put this out there. I haven’t been real open about this difficult time in our marriage because It happened only about two years ago. And it just when, when big things happen and, and hard times come through marriage, it takes a while, you know, to work through it, that’s actually really, really been starting to work through in the last year, just what what we went through. And I was surprised my husband and I, we had been married for probably almost 10 years, and you say, by then you’ve got figured out, right? I’ve been forever. Yeah, you didn’t have a whole ton of big issues prior to that. But then, we had, like, the most difficult season of our life. And my husband, he had been a pastor, associate pastor for probably 889 years. And he just hit burnout, he needed to step out of that. And I will go ahead and be an I was not at all supportive of him abandoning that career, because we, you know, we did this together, we had been doing it for a long time together. And it was what we wanted to do, it was what we worked toward, we, you know, he’s in school for like seven years for this. So it was very difficult to watch him make that decision, knowing how much it would affect our family, you know, backing your career that you’ve been working towards, for so long, it just, you know, it brings a lot of stress into the family, because we weren’t sure what he was going to do to replace that income. And less than excited, was very hard for me. And I think in every marriage, everyone deals with this same situation, we have to deal with our spouse making their own decisions. And and maybe it’s something as simple as you don’t like that your spouse doesn’t clean up after themselves. Or maybe you wish, your spouse would be more motivated and do this thing or that thing. So there’s so many like practice implications to the situation that I dealt with, because this was a huge, huge decision that made a lot of changes in our family. And I think I was surprised at how horrible I acted. Because I felt like our marriage was very strong. And I I guess just the right amount of pressure had never been placed on us. To us. I think I’ve had so many friends whose marriages have, they’ve had a long term marriage, and then the right amount of pressure came on. And it was like, Oh, my gosh, I can’t take this and make it through this. And this was probably the first time I ever asked that in my marriage, because all of a sudden, we did not have the same plan for our life. That was very hard to get through that into. It wasn’t just me not trusting my husband more than anything. I didn’t trust God. And that happens so much. In our marriages, we want to put it all on our spouse. But yeah, it’s just are not trusting the Lord in a situation. I spent a lot of time like wanting to blame him for making these choices. But he was doing what he knew he had to and I didn’t make it easy on him. So I was really awful. It was it was tough. And how did we pull out of it? Well, I’ll tell you, it was just again, one of those times where I was talking about with the scripture that we we will have those times in our life where we don’t know how to handle it. We have no clue, the right decisions to make, we really have to trust in God and rely on him. And my husband got very busy with his work. He took on two jobs and basically worked around the clock. I picked up a lot of freelance writing, I was homeschooling my boys. I have three kids home and I was working all the time. No, the problems kind of resolved themselves because we just didn’t even have the time to like talk to each other. Enough time gets passed. And you you’re frustrated, but you can’t even have the conversations because you’re so busy. That a lot. Mm

14:40
hmm. I actually really love that because I think sometimes there’s a statistic out there that says, you know, and I can link it on the show notes once I find it, find it again. But it basically says that if if marriages will just hang on during the hard times for even just five years. You get past that and it’s 100 Marriage again in five years. Almost like regardless of the circumstances, it’s amazing that just hanging on and saying, I’m not giving up yet, or I’m just going to, you know, hold tight for now. And then seeing what God does in the in the midst. So I just want to encourage anyone who’s out there who’s who’s understanding what Keeley is saying and saying, Yes, I understand that pressure. I’m having pressure right now in my marriage right now. I think it’s a really good takeaway to think, why not just hang on? Why not just spend your time, however, you want to just stick with the marriage?

15:36
Absolutely. And I mean, I wasn’t really, like, I’m going to leave my husband over this. But I did have that thought, go through my mind. How are we going to get back on the same page? Again? Very scary place to be in marriage.

15:52
Yeah, especially since you had so many goals and dreams. And you were you were focused on this certain dream for so long. And then all of a sudden, your husband is like, No, I have a different dream all of a sudden. I mean, that’s got to be hard.

16:05
It is. And, you know, now that we are two years down the road, and yeah, a lot of things have resolved in our life, we’re in a much better place than we probably have ever been, like mentally, spiritually, financially. God opened up a lot of doors, it was not quick, it wasn’t quick fix, it was a lot of hard work on both of our parts. And, you know, my biggest regrets from that year, where we were just working around the clock and stuff was that we did not work together as a team. And not very hard. Because when your spouse is doing things that you don’t agree with, or maybe you don’t like their, like their life choices and stuff, it’s so easy to start seeing them as your opponent and not your teammates. And you treat them that way different than you do a teammate. Mm hmm. So

17:05
yeah, that’s awesome. I so agree with that. Because you are on the same side I, I like something my brother says is when they’re having an argument, he and his wife, you know, maybe there’ll be a lull in the conversation. And he’ll be like, well, listen, let’s just remember, we’re on the same team. Yeah. And like with that perspective, when things shift, and you’re like, wait a second, it’s not me versus you. It’s not who’s gonna win. It’s, we’re fighting this out together, we’re on the same side. I love that insight. So I want to ask, you know, in the site, because I think income difficulties is like financial difficulties is one of the well, it’s one of the chief reasons for divorce, first of all, but it’s just a huge stressor in people’s lives. And, you know, going through that, and when it seems like your husband is the one that’s making everything insecure financially, I mean, how was that for you?

17:57
Well, I’ll tell you, we’ve, we’ve had our difficulties in our finances for a lot of years. And we knew that we would have to live on less because my husband was the full time ministry. So I don’t think the financial insecurity really bothered me quite as bad as the uncertainty of what we would be doing with our lives from then on. And I just, I’ve always trusted that guy was going to take care of us financially. Yeah, I didn’t know how he was going to do it. I was definitely frustrated that we were kind of like, taken a step back and some of our finances, but I don’t know, I could deal with that a lot more than I could just, I went through a huge crisis in my life, because I had always thought I was supposed to be a pastor’s wife. And when my husband said he didn’t want to do that anymore, it was like, Well, what am I supposed to do now? Where is my role in this world? If that’s what my role is, and I realized, honestly, that in that moment, I had a lot of my, like, self worth wrapped up in his job or who he is or whatever. Yeah. I always said, I wouldn’t do that. But our identity comes in Christ, not our spouse and our kids. So, yeah, our financial insecurity. I know a lot of couples struggle with that. It just really caused me to get much more aggressive about my writing, and, and working from home. So honestly, it was the motivation I needed to do to do my job better to be more proactive in that. So really, it was a good thing for us. Wow. You know, because we both got much, much more aggressive about, you know, earning and, like coming up with more creative ways to earn money, versus we’re just going to rely on this one and Haven’t sourced and if that and then we don’t have anything. So the truth is we actually have more financial security now than we did when he was working just one job.

20:11
Hmm. Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s really cool. I feel like that’s a big takeaway for anyone who might be in financial challenge right now is that, you know, diversifying your income is really important. And so that’s a really smart thing. And the fact that you kind of poured yourself into your passion, your ambition, your worker, instead of just stewing on oh, gosh, this isn’t fair, I’m not doing what I wish I could have done or something. I really love the other thing that you said, a lot of my self worth was in maybe my spouse’s occupation, or who he is or who, who I thought he was or something. I think that’s a really key point. Because I think a lot of times, that is what we do, even when we pick our spouse, we’re picking him for maybe how it’s gonna make me look, in some ways, like in some maybe subconscious level, I think a lot of times we are like, oh, this person measures up to the ideal person that I want to be seen with kind of a deal. And then to think about, as, as you’re walking alongside your spouse, what he’s doing, is that identity, something you’re relying on, I think that’s a good question to ask ourselves, do you think?

21:27
I think so? Yeah. And, and my mom always told me, Kelly, you draw your self worth in God in Christ, not in other people. So. And here’s the thing about that situation, my husband making that choice, but he knew he had to make for our family, it was very hard for him, it was not easy, he did not enjoy making the choice. He knew that we were going to have to go through a lot together because of it. So like, it wasn’t simple. But, you know, because he did that, because that was the catalyst, it really started revealing to me, weaknesses in our marriage weaknesses on my own part, because, like I said, I had relied on his ability to do his job to get my self worth. Yeah. And also just, I wasn’t letting him be who he needed to be. I was trying to, like, micromanage that and dictate that because his success and his job and stuff, man, that was direct reflection on me. I took it, and how many times as why do we do that? Because I mean, if you have your own job, is probably very different. But if you’re staying at home, and it’s like, okay, I’m staying at home, and my husband is our sole provider. Yeah, if he can’t be successful on this, then it’s a bad reflection on me. And you have a lot of ready to, for him being successful or doing things. So yeah, I started seeing all kinds of terrible habits that I had built in our marriage, because I put my self worth on his job, my identity was wrapped up in his successes. And it’s kind of like that same idea of living through your children. It was the same kind of thing. I was living out my life through his ability to do things.

23:32
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s something that we need to be careful of as wives, and to realize that we need to get our identity in Christ. And you know, when the pressure comes, it says, In the Bible, if we build our house on the rock, then when the pressure comes, when the when the storms, the you know, hurricanes come in life, and they do, our foundation will not be shaken, but if it’s built on the sand will immediately be washed away. And I guess I want to ask, you know, when that pressure comes in life, how can a wife be? I mean, you know, it’s great to be theoretical about this, but how practically, can she be building her house on the rock?

24:13
Well, I think that, you know, some of the daily habits that I had to create during that time was I had to focus on other things. I had to have things that were my things, things that I did every day that I could feel accomplished in and that is so hard when you are a stay at home mom, you hardly ever see anybody you got kids No, are pooping everywhere and it’s so hard to be this like constant caretaker. And it’s like, I look and feel like I have wasted my day because you come into my house and it the kids are losing their minds and I have spent the entire day screaming at everybody and

25:02
you know, how if you just what you mean,

25:05
this supposed to be like making a difference in the world? How, by this, when I’m definitely like feeling like I’m failing at every turn in my home.

25:17
Right, right. Yeah. Any, any mother knows just what you’re talking about?

25:21
Oh, yeah, it’s like your husband comes home and he’s had this awesome day where he’s been stilts all day, and he probably got no real lunch. And you’re so and you’re like, you know, I think I’ve had two bites of food and my car, on the microwave. So for me, the thing that really helped pull me out of that was to find what I was passionate about, and focus on that because for so long, my passion was what my husband did. And I do have a passion for youth ministry, I really do. I stayed in youth ministry for up until a couple months ago after he had to step out. And I just really found the things that could be mine that I could put my attention and my focus on and that took so much pressure off of my husband, because I was younger, like nagging him as much, I shouldn’t have anything to nag him over. Because I was so focused on the things that I felt passionate about. And this is not the same thing as investing in your kids. Not saying don’t be passionate about investing in your children are passionate about investing in your husband. But figure what that thing is you can do every day, or every couple of days that you can invest in yourself. And for me, writing is definitely a passion. Like I’ve wanted to share since I was a kid, I didn’t even know about this whole blogging thing. You know, I didn’t even know anything about the whole internet and the world of that. And I thought if you’re going to be a writer, you got to write a book. You know, anything, like, but now I can pursue that passion and pursue your mom. I know how hard it is, you’ve got babies and diapers, and you’re like, I don’t have time to put into anything but the kids. I could go back and do it over again, I would have definitely been incorporating more of my own passion during the those years because I see so many women who have stayed at home with their kids for 10 years. And all of a sudden, all of them are in school. And it’s like, alright, well I’ve invested in them. I’ve invested in my husband. Now I don’t have an identity. Yeah, yeah. I’m not the only mom hitting that crisis. Lots of in my life have I have seen that hit that same crisis. It’s like, oh, my gosh, Nobody needs me anymore. What’s my role in life?

27:57
Mm hm. And that’s a really hard, that’s a really hard place to come to.

28:03
It is. So in addition to my husband, going through his own hurts, and crisis and struggles, I was also going through my own set of crisis and struggles. And this was a time in our marriage, where neither one of us could meet the other person’s needs, we just weren’t capable. And when you with, you know, just stick it out for a couple of years. And that’s really, that’s a great piece of advice, because those change, but there will just be times in your marriage, where neither one of you can meet the other one to me. Yeah, that’s hard, because you are going meet my needs meet my needs, and they are just incapable of doing it. Wow.

28:50
That’s really, really good. Because I think you’re right, I think our expectation is for that to happen. And if that’s not happening, well, then the marriage is broken, and we need to, you know, move on. But to realize that there might be a season and there probably will be a season maybe to just expect seasons that you really are incapable of meeting each other’s needs.

29:13
Oh, yeah. And every time you tried and meet the spouse’s needs, it just doesn’t seem to work for whatever reason, and when it isn’t working, it’s mainly because they’ve got a real issue inside of themselves. They got to work through it, and you’re not gonna be able to fix it for them. So you’re just gonna get mad because you’re like, Well, I’m trying care.

29:38
Yep, yep. No, that’s good. I think that’s something you know if if that’s not ringing true for you right now. Listener? I think that might be something to kind of think about a little bit is this is this a season where we’re just in a rough spot, meeting each other’s needs? This doesn’t mean a forever thing. This isn’t like something that’s going to go on for years and And might just be right now you’re both kind of in crisis. And in the midst of that, how do you stay on each other’s team? How do you still work together to help each other? So I really love that. I guess my last question in this arena is about finding your passion. So if a wife is like, I’ve heard that before, I’ve heard people say, find what you’re passionate about. But I really don’t know. I have no idea what I’m passionate about. So where would someone start figuring that out?

30:30
Well, I think what happened for me and what helped me was I just tried a lot of different things. Yeah. And over the course of the years, I’ve tried a lot of different things like I have done crafting, and I have done embroidery and I have set up my booths at craft shows. And I have tried. I’ve tried so so many things. Yeah. Over the course of the years, and I fell into the situation with writing, because I was just like, on the list of 50 things I was trying. And I think, Okay, if you don’t know where to start, if you don’t have a passion in mind, you just have to get involved and do things. So get a part of a mom’s group or start, you know, looking for things you can do, of course, it’s going to be limited because of your children, but they’re not going to be babies forever. They’re going to grow up, they’re going to become contributing adults are not adults, but contributing children to the house. So yeah, just make it a priority, and, and start getting involved in stuff, whatever that stuff is, whether it’s something at your church, maybe it’s a local community center. And, like, if you don’t have a direction, you will likely just fall into it. I mean, that’s how most people get jobs anyway. They Yeah, kind of just fall into it.

31:55
Yeah, I love that. And now what if? What do you think about passions changing?

32:00
Oh, they’re definitely gonna change, I think, okay, and mine do. I mean, I was all about crafting for a while. And that was something I could put my heart into. It was it was short lived. I’ve definitely put my passions into certain ministries at church. And those things, they ended, for whatever reason, whether we had to move or the ministry fizzled out. In Yeah, passions are gonna change. I mean, you just have to be willing to do what God brings you to, and he will bring you to things. And just when he brings it before you, and gives you the opportunity, if you’re looking for the opportunities, you’ll see it and then you can put your time and your life into it.

32:50
Well, I hope that you have been inspired to really dig in when those difficult seasons come and figure out what your passions are and figure out, you know, how you can move forward through this because God makes away he’s going to make away he is for your marriage. And I just believe that and encourage you to press on today. God bless you. Thank you so much for listening, and I hope you have a fantastic rest of your day. Talk to you on Tuesday. Bye bye.

33:17
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Larry Hagner with gooddadproject.com. Larry has a heart for fatherhood and he knows how important his marriage is as the foundation of his family. Larry shares a very personal story about his family. When he and his wife were pregnant with their fourth child they found out some distressing news about their child. This launched the two into very challenging next weeks onto what to do for their baby. Larry shares what he learned and how God has been faithful throughout.

Scripture/Quote:

• Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 1 Corinthians 7:5

You’ll Discover:

• How a husband supported his family in one of the most challenging experiences of his life
• How Larry had to make the most uncomfortable decision, one that he never wanted to make
• Larry wondered how his marriage would survive the grief of losing their son
• A counselor and pastor gave Larry and his wife advice that he will never forget
• What Larry and his wife have taken from this painful experience and how they have hope and you can too

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• The Dad’s Edge: 9 Simple Ways to Have: Unlimited Patience, Improved Relationships, and Positive Lasting Memories by Larry Hagner

Tweetables:

• When you’re in the midst of a valley, it’s so important that you come together and pray together so that foundation is there between you and God.
• It’s the first thing you think about when you wake up and the last thing you think about when you go to sleep
• Sometimes you don’t realize what you’re up against until you explain it to someone else
• You will send a very clear message to your other boys that you don’t give up on anyone
• The story we tell ourselves in crisis matters
• I don’t know what’s going to happen or what the end result is going to be, but I know that somehow it is going to make us stronger

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:19
Hello there, and welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. Thank you so much for joining me in the new year. 2016. awesome to have you back. We had a couple of weeks break. And I hope that you had a wonderful Christmas and New Year. And yeah, I’m just excited to have you back. If you did get a chance to spend time with your husband or wife, and dream a little bit about the new year, I hope you got a chance to just because God is the God of hope. And he wants us to have hope. And today we have a really moving story from a man named Larry Hagner, we’re going to get into that in a minute. But it’s powerful. And even in the midst of really, really challenging things, we can still have hope that is part of this amazing journey with Christ is that we get to have hope in the midst of really challenging situations. So I am going to share with you an email that I received, I usually share iTunes reviews, which I so appreciate. So if you haven’t gotten a chance to send us an iTunes review, please do that. But let me go ahead and read this. I just got it, I think yesterday. So it says the podcast is fantastic. I’ve been a pastor for 25 years, and we’ve needed you many, many years ago. It’s going to help millions of people. My wife, and I listen while we work out and we’re loving your sincerity, which is superseded by your passion for God, which gives the whole podcast great validity. So keep up the great work. So thank you so much for the email. Thank you for those of you that listen and reach out to me or do the iTunes review that just matters so much. And I so appreciate it because it actually helps people find the podcast and it might be something that’s going to change their life. So I’d encourage you to do that. If you haven’t gotten a chance. Thank you. All right. Well, today again is Larry Hagner story. And I’d say probably get the tissues ready for this one. It’s it’s a powerful story. And I think he’s got some wonderful lessons that he shares with us. It matters a lot to your marriage, what you go through together and I think Larry’s got some wonderful principles that he pulls out of his experience as well. Alright, let’s go ahead and dive in.

2:36
Welcome back to let your marriage listeners. I’m really thrilled that you’re joining me today. Thank you.

2:41
And I’ve got a really special guest, Mr. Larry Hagner from good dad, Project calm. Welcome, Larry.

2:48
Hey, how you doing? belah.

2:50
I’m doing great. I’m really great. I’m really excited to have you. And I’m really excited to jump into your story. And you’ve got an awesome heart for dads and for kids. And I want you to talk about that. But would you be willing to introduce yourself, your family and a little bit about your day to day life?

3:05
Sure. So I started the good dad project about four years ago. And really what has developed into now is it’s really just a mission. We have a podcast called The good dad project podcast. We also I also have a book out called the dad’s edge that’s available on Amazon. But really, I mean, the majority of my time is spent, you know, writing, you know, I’m an author, speaker, also a husband been married for the past 13 years to a wonderful woman by the name of Jessica. I’ve actually known her for 20 years, but we’ve been married 13 years, and it’s just been a phenomenal journey. And I am a father of three boys. My oldest son Ethan nine. I have a seven year old Mason. I have a two year old Lawson. And I have a another boy on the web. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Everybody says Wow. Yeah, it’s funny once once you go from from three kids to four. Yeah, there’s no more congratulations. Like, it’s everyone says, Wow, or what’s wrong with you or seriously, so, but, yeah, he’s gonna be born here in, gosh, seven weeks or so in February. I’m not sure when this show is going to launch. I know, we’re recording here in December, but he’s gonna be he’s gonna be here in February. The cool thing is, is that we have two boys that are 20 months apart. So Ethan and Mason are 20 months apart. And then last one and this one will be like 24 months apart just about so it’s perfect. To into.

4:38
Yeah, no, that’s great. I’ve got a two year old also. And he’s a boy and I’ve got a one year old and so there’s, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of emotions going on with those two year olds. Oh,

4:49
yeah. Yeah. It’s funny. We were going through the terrible twos right now a little bit. Yeah, he’s a bit of a challenge. But you know, you just roll with it. I mean, being that We’ve had to already we kind of sort of know what to expect at this point. So we’re just like, yeah, we’ll get through it. And we’ll get through it too. So you always do,

5:08
as my oldest is going through it. I’m like, and now I have a second child that’s going to go through it soon. And it’s just kind of wild that that that happens. But it’s all part of the whole parenting process. So it’s good.

5:21
I have to ask real quick. So how far apart are yours and age? I mean, they sound like a year apart. Yeah, a year and a half. Yeah, they’re close. That is really close. Yeah.

5:31
Yeah, actually, my, my one year old. Today is his birthday. So a year ago today. Now, here’s something I haven’t shared on the podcast, I’ll share this with you, Larry. We actually accidentally had the baby at home,

5:45
accidentally had the baby, mentally.

5:48
We live. We live a couple blocks away from the hospital. So we were like, you know, last time it was 14 hours, we’ll have plenty of time to walk over there once it’s ready. And no, we were five hours into labor. And I was like, Baby, it’s got to happen. It’s got to happen now. And my husband drew the bath and my husband delivered the baby.

6:07
Oh, my gosh, I mean, when you first said, when you first said the hospitals are few blocks away, my first thought was like it’s far. We’re not gonna just stay home. We’re good.

6:23
That’s right. Yeah. It was a wild experience. But it was wonderful. It was like an amazing, amazing experience. And if I do you have another baby. I think I’ll try to actually plan it. So it happens at home. Not the not the accident. But it was pretty, it was pretty crazy. It was really an amazing experience.

6:40
You are brave, brave, brave, brave, brave woman. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I listen to your podcasts. I’m a fan of your content. But I take it to a whole new level. You’re like a ninja now. Man,

7:01
I’m taking that.

7:03
Yeah, you should. You should hats off to you.

7:07
Thank you, thank you. It was yeah, thank God everything was it was a great, it was a great experience. It was really wild. So yeah, it’s one of those things. Birth is such an interesting bonding experience. I think for a husband and wife. I think it’s just just unparalleled, you know, you’re in an absolute crisis. And you need each other to be there and hold each other strong. I think it’s it’s pretty incredible.

7:31
That’s an understatement. I think in that situation, so my gosh, I mean, give your husband a hug for me. Well, you because I mean, I you know, I’ve been in I’ve been in medical device sales also for the past 16 years. So I’ve seen surgery after surgery after surgery, and I’ve seen some pretty wild stuff and I gotta be honest with you, I don’t know if it was I’ve never passed out and I’ve seen some pretty gory things in the arm. But when my first son was born I’ll never forget this I mean that’s why I say Hats off to your husband and you in particular but the birth of my first son so I was in there and when they went to do in a PC Atomy I almost completely passed out I was I was there with my wife and my Believe it or not my actually my father in law was in a room oh gosh, as well. And what happened was is like I guess he saw my face and you know, I usually always kind of keep like a five o’clock shadow on my face and he’s like, I suddenly saw like, because I have a dark beard and he’s like, I suddenly saw like this contrast of complete pale up against the hair on your face. And then I saw these beads of sweat start to start to form and your five o’clock shadow and I started to see you sway so what he did was he actually got behind Wow, it just in case like I wasn’t because I was about ready to fall over but some I just kind of caught control my breath. And God Yeah, man. The fact you guys did that. Wow. Yeah,

8:59
it well. It’s it’s an It’s unreal. It’s just such an so anyone that’s pregnant out there. I mean, it is okay. Birth is good. It’s gonna be okay. Don’t be scared, but it’s definitely it’s an experience every single birth isn’t an experience of epic proportions. Yes, it is. That’s an understatement. Yeah, yeah. Well, so tell us a little bit about you and your wife’s personalities if you would,

9:26
oh, boy. So you know, I’m kind of my personality is I am I am like a doer. I mean, and I I’ve spent the majority of my career in sales. So I know like the different personality styles. And I am what you call a an extroverted doer. So I love people. I get my energy from people I love to speak. I’m outgoing, I kind of feed off that and as far as being a doer. Yeah, I just I write my list of what I’m going to do and the critical things that I need to do to get done and I just do them because nothing drives more crazy than to have something on my list that I know I need to get done, that is not crossed off. I mean, it just wears on me. So I’m like a doer, my wife on the other hand, she’s more of an introvert. And she, but she’s so she’s such a compassionate, wonderful wife and mother and and I mean, in our personalities are quite a bit different. But what we’ve noticed over the past 20 years from knowing each other is they couldn’t complement each other better. Because, for instance, like when I start to get stressed out, because I’m a very type a person when I start to get stressed, and I’m like, you know, I kind of get that defeat of mindset every now and again, she’s one of those people that she’s kind of like a rock, you know, she kind of reels me back in and you know, and she’s, she’s good about grounding me. And on the flip side, you know, when she gets stressed out, her energy gets really, really low. So one of the things that I can do for her is bring her energy back up. So it’s a awesome, I mean, that’s just one aspect of me, I can go into several but, but that’s really some of the dynamics of our relationship. I mean, our relationship is built so much on communication. And we, we do several things even a day, to make sure that that is rock solid, because as you know, when you have more than one kid, and we’re about ready to step into the to the land of four kids here. So important. I mean, it’s so you can you can lose each other. And sometimes once once you’re lost, it is so hard to get that back. So that’s one of the things that we are very conscious of, and we we do things on a daily basis, we do things on a monthly basis. And we even do things when we’re in the moment with each other. And I know through the interview that maybe we can go through some of those things.

11:47
Yeah, I’d love to hear more about that. But before we dive into that more, this is really about empowering and inspiring wives. And we do have a husband listeners, but it’s mostly focused for wives. And so I’d love for you to share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you.

12:02
Yeah, so one of the one of the scriptures that have really meant a lot to me, for a long time, actually, and I heard it, you know, quite a few years ago, because I think it speaks to maybe some of the ebb and flow of the intimacy of marriage, you know, times where you’re, you feel very, very close, and then times you feel a little bit distant. And I mean, I think both parties, you know, whether you’re a husband or wife, you’re you’re very well aware, and you’re very attuned to which which one of those situations you’re in. So one of the scriptures that that definitely speak volumes to me is, this is a one Corinthians seven, five, which is, Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may Devote yourselves to prayer, but then come back together again. So that Satan may not tempt you, because of your lack of self control. And I think one of the reasons I love that quote, is because I think it speaks volumes to maybe those peaks and valleys of your marriage. And when you feel that maybe, I mean, you should always pray. But when you’re in maybe a bit of a valley, that you come together, you pray together. And that foundation is there, through prayer and God and to bring each other back to that same place where intimacy can then be reestablished and reborn a little bit, and work your way back up that peak and not stay in that valley.

13:32
Huh? Yeah, yeah, I love that in it. And it’s true. I mean, marriage is alive and active, it’s not something that’s just static, you really have to be intentional about making sure that that communication is there and, and that your intimacy is able to be in a environment that is, you know, encouraging that. So I want to talk about that more, and I want to hear about a story of a struggle that you and your wife have had and, and what you learned through that if you’d be willing to share

14:05
telling this story, okay. And I’m just gonna preface this, it’s gonna be a bit controversial for your listeners. But the end result, but the end result isn’t controversial. So but there are going to be some things that I say in this story that probably gonna make some of your listeners eyebrows go up a little bit, but I want to let you know that this story does have a it has an interesting sort of a sad ending, but also a very, there was a lot of good that came out of it a lot of strength. So I would say, this is hard for me to talk about, but I I’ve done it only on a couple of other shows. But I think for your listeners, especially for the women listeners, and even for your men listeners, this is important. So it was actually a year ago, one year ago, pretty much to this moment in time that you and I are speaking my wife and I I found out just after Halloween in 2014, that we were pregnant with our fourth. And we were a bit surprised about that. Because we I mean, I don’t, I wouldn’t say we were being careful, but we weren’t really trying. And in the past, believe it or not, even though we have, we’re about ready to have our fourth again, here, we’ve always had challenges getting pregnant. But so we found out we were pregnant, and we were like, Wow, gosh, for who? Okay, but here we go, we’re ready for it, you know, so my wife is over 35. So when you’re over 35, her OB is pretty aggressive. So she wanted her to get you know, this 10 week, bloodwork drawn up of the health of the baby, and, and, you know, my wife’s panels and all this stuff that basically tells you, you know, is everything, okay? And what we found out at that 10 week mark, and we found out right before Thanksgiving of last year. So we found out number one we got a phone call from and this is the day before Thanksgiving last year. So it made Thanksgiving interesting. We got to get a call from our OB personally, she called us not her nurse, but our OB and she’s like, look,

16:05
I have some news for you. Number one, you’re having a boy. So, you know, another another boy for you. But I also have some challenging news. And that challenging news is, is your baby came back with trisomy 13. And I had no clue. And I’m sure a lot of your listeners have no idea what Trisomy 13 is, I didn’t either I had no clue what it was. Basically what Trisomy 13 is, is it’s an extra chromosome of the 13th chromosome. And what that basically means a nutshell without getting into the science behind it is that the 13th chromosome is responsible for pretty much all major organs in the body, the liver, the kidney, the lungs, the heart, everything. And what they know about Trisomy 13 Is that babies who are born with it don’t usually live past seven days, I think literally so like the the mortality rate is like 98%. The miscarriage rate. Yeah, the miscarriage rate is 40%. Wow. So we didn’t know how to digest that, that information whatsoever. When you go on, you know, Dr. Google and all that and you start doing your own research, it tends to really scare the bejesus out of you, you know, it just scares you to death. And what we found out was like, wow, you know, we are faced with something with something huge here. So we went back to our OBGYN The very next week, she sat us down, she was like, Look, I’ve been doing this for 25 years, I’ve only seen two Trisomy 13 babies in my entire practice, I and of course, like I know all about this. She was like, I don’t know of one documented case of a child living past a week. She’s like, she said, So here. Here are your three options. She’s like, and I am not coaching you to do one thing either way. But here, here are your options. Okay. Number one, the majority of patients, the majority of women and couples who are faced with this, they usually terminate the pregnancy, because they know that this child will pass away anyway. Your Your second option, you know, is basically miscarriage 40% of all cases will miscarry. But But still, that’s 60% that will go all the way, which is a pretty high number. And the third option is going full term, having the baby and knowing the baby will pass away. She’s like sometimes the babies don’t even make it through birth. She’s like, if you want to do that, I can’t I’m not the one to deliver this child, you need to go see a specialist. So those are three very grim situations. I mean, it’s like what is the best service? So so I’ll be honest with you, I’ve I’ve three kids, you know, my two are old enough to really understand they knew we’re pregnant. They knew as a boy, you know, so I have never been pro abortion ever. Yeah, I believe that it’s not our right to kill any human being whether that human being is 80, or whether it’s not even outside of the womb, it’s just not something I believe in. This is where I get kind of to the controversial part. So yeah, my automatic response to this was, we should terminate this pregnancy. And I didn’t do it because I went against everything. I believe in my wife, too. She doesn’t believe in that either. But we really sat down and we thought about like, Okay, what, what’s gonna happen if we go full term? My boys, my nine year old, my seven year old are going to watch this baby die. And this baby is going to die in the NICU hooked up to tubes and there might be pain involved, and how and then with our relationship, our marriage, like how in the world are we even going to get through this? You know how? Yeah, so it really became like, what’s the more humane thing to do in this situation? And what we thought at the time, was terminating the pregnancy. So believe it or not December 12 of last year, we had a date to go do this termination, because if we went past December 20, it then falls into the category, I guess my wife would would be too far along for regular termination, and it’d be more of a surgical procedure, and it would be a little bit more dangerous and all that. So what we did is, you know, we decided that like two weeks before December 12, and this decision, it’s the first thing that you wake up with in the morning, and the last thing you think about it at night, and every time my wife and I saw each other’s face, it was a strong reminder of what we’re up against. And we almost didn’t know how to relate to each other how to handle it, and there was a lot of stress. And plus trying to raise three other boys at the same time that we didn’t, we weren’t sharing this information with them. So December 11, came the night before we were supposed to, and I don’t know what it was I was. I was I was praying a lot about it. And sorry.

21:04
I don’t know why. I just sort of suddenly came to me that this is not right. And so I went to my wife, and I just said, you know, I don’t know about you, but I don’t think we should do this. And my wife kind of broke down. And she said, You know, I’m so glad you said that. Because, you know, I don’t want to do it either. She’s like, so I just told her, I was like, look, let’s just cancel the appointment. I don’t want to do this. Let’s go see a counselor. And maybe we should just get some coaching around this, to see what we should do. So we got my we got our pastor involved. And we also got a counselor that is involved with our church, we sat down with both of them. And we explained the situation to him. And I gotta be honest, belah I mean, like, sometimes you don’t realize what you’re up against until you explain it to somebody else. And when we were telling these two, what we’re up against, both of these grown men were just completely choked up. And they’re like, oh, my gosh, like, Okay, this is a lot. And this goes, this is a different situation. This isn’t like you’re aborting this child because you don’t want it you know, this, this baby was conceived out of love. Therefore, you know, so anyway, I’ll never forget what they told us. And they told us this. And I even wrote about this in my book, it’s in my last chapter, but the counselor looked at us and he said, Look, here’s what I do know about you both. If you decide to terminate this pregnancy, it goes against everything that you believe in. And it goes against how you were both wired. And it’s going to be a very dark thing for you. And what, what’s going to happen is when people ask you about what happened with that pregnancy, you’re going to, you know, you’re going to say, Oh, we lost it, we miscarried. And it’s going to become this very dark secret that’s going to eat away at you in the very fear of losing your marriage, because you go through this full term, he goes, I would bet that that is what’s going to destroy your marriage is the fact that you guys decided to do this. And he’s like, however, if you decide to put this child, this boy in God’s hands and take him when he’s ready, you are going to be overwhelmed by the the support, the love. All these people are going to come out of the woodwork and they’re going to lock arms with you, they’re going to pray for you, they’re going to be with you. And it’s going to be completely overwhelming. And what you are going to do Sorry is you will send a very clear message to your other boys that you don’t give up on anyone. So anyway, we became very clear what our decision was when we decided to go full term. Yeah, we were terrified. But we we felt very good about that decision. So in this story with this, and then what we got out of it. So December 28 of last year,

24:21
this whole thing came to a very surprising end. We decided, you know, at this point, we knew we were going full term we knew we were doing you know for at least a couple weeks. We were getting ready to leave for I think a holiday party with my wife’s family and my wife ran into the bathroom frantically and I didn’t know what was going on. I opened up the bathroom door, see if she’s okay, and there’s just blood everywhere. And she had a look of absolute panic on her face. And she’s like, I think I’m in labor. And so I immediately call 911 I was like, I think my wife isn’t labor. She’s only 20 weeks along I I don’t think we’re gonna make it to the hospital with blood everywhere. So next phone call I did I call my neighbors I got my two older boys out of the house, I didn’t want them to see anything. They came over, they got them. And then what happened was is the paramedics came in, we ended up having our baby boy on the floor of our bathroom, and he had passed away. And I know that sounds graphic, but we, I got to see him, he was no bigger than my hand, my wife held them, I held my wife upright while she held them. I can’t sit here and tell you that it was peaceful. And I can’t sit here and tell you that it was horrible. To be honest with you, here we are a year later. And I can’t still put words around. But what I can tell you is it was a lot more humane. And I felt like in a way it was God’s way. Even though it sounded overwhelming. Maybe it was God’s way of allowing us to say goodbye in a more humane way than what we work on originally decide. And so here’s what we learned out of that in my entire last chapter, my book is dedicated to what we learned out of that situation. So we learned perspective, we learned, okay, there are things in a marriage, right that are going to ebb and flow, there’s going to be peaks and valleys, there’s gonna be times where you’re close. And when you’re not. The biggest lesson we learned was the story that we tell ourselves in crisis. And what I mean by that is, my mind, in my heart wanted to default to the attitude of, I don’t know how we’re going to get through this, this is horrible. You know, I’m angry at the situation, you know, Jessica, and I aren’t getting along, you know, our marriage is probably gonna fall apart. And here’s the thing, if you tell yourself that, and you focus on that, that’s exactly what’s going to happen. However, every time I felt that voice that I wanted to default to the debt crept in, I immediately interdite at that, and was like, and just said, No, I’m not going to feel that way. In fact, I don’t know the reasons why this is happening. And I don’t know what the end result is going to be. All I know is that I have faith that it’s going to somehow someway make us stronger. And I kept saying that to myself over and over and over again. And it became, believe it or not a very tough strengthening lesson of how we can do that in every aspect of our life. When you feel that voice start to creep in, of, you know, a diminished view of perspective, you can immediately stop that, you know, whether that’s say a prayer, reverse those words, somehow, some way and train your mind to think a different way. And I swear, that’s what God, that’s one of the things that got us through that. And I’m sorry, no, that was a long story. But I would say that’s probably, that’s what that was one of the toughest things we went through, and it was one of the best lessons we learned from them.

28:02
That’s amazing. That’s amazing. I think all of us are touched by your story. That’s incredible. And I want to point out what you said, I don’t know why this is happening. And I don’t know what the results are going to be. But it’s going to make us stronger to it. As powerful, it’s powerful. And I know that listeners are out there, you know, tearing up and recognizing their own story in yours of hearing, you know what’s happened. It’s amazing that we started this conversation talking about births and pregnancy, and all this and, and just there’s so much pain associated with what’s happened in lives, around birth, around abortion, around all of this and to recognize that we don’t have to know why we don’t have to know what’s going to happen, but that God’s gonna use this for the good of your life and what’s going to happen. That’s what he says in Romans, he says, All things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purposes. So you can hang on to that you can hold on to that.

29:09
I couldn’t agree more. To be honest with you. I mean, I just think everything you just wrapped that up with I I couldn’t I it’s you couldn’t have wrapped up any better than that. I mean, it’s absolutely true. One of the things I’ll say too, is so in my book, it’s called the dad’s edge. And it’s nine simple ways to have unlimited patients, improve relationships and positive lasting memories. And when I was writing the book, I was done with the book, right around this whole when this whole thing unfolded. And at the time, it was eight simple ways to all those things. And my editor, he knew what was going on. And my editor said, you know, the book is great, you know, I and you give eight really good chapters on several facets of a man’s life and and how to get through things. But what you’d put the book doesn’t have is how to get through the big stuff. And what I think you need to do is write a ninth chapter on what you just went through. And I told him, I was like, You are insane. I was like, I can’t really talk about it. I can’t write about it. And he’s like, You should you have, you should, if you feel like, you know, if you felt that this was this all happened for a reason, then why not empower others with it so that the last 20 pages of my book, my book is only 100 pages, but the last 20 pages, my book took me almost three months, because it was just taxing to write. But I put it in there. And yeah, what I have found is that chapter hits home to almost every day, I get more emails, more reviews, more texts, more, more feedback on that last chapter, than anything else. So I know that it had to have happened for a reason.

31:01
Yeah, that’s powerful. That’s powerful. Thank you so much for sharing that. No problem.

31:06
Sorry. Sorry, I kind of cracked a little bit there. But it is a tough story kind of talk through. Yeah,

31:16
it’s just amazing. Thank you so much, Larry, for sharing so openly with us. And I think all of us are moved by it. And I think as as something we can take away from it is really how Larry approached the situation that when it was the last thing he thought about when he went to sleep, and the first thing he thought about when he woke up, he had kind of a mantra in his head of like, I don’t know what’s going to happen. I don’t know, what’s you know what’s on the other side, but I know that it’s going to make us stronger. I know that there’s a reason for this. And I think all of us can, can hold on to that, that ultimately, there is a reason. Ultimately, God is working something for good out of our situations. And so I just want to leave you with that and encourage you to keep that as your as your mindset as you go through the challenging times, maybe just this week. Or maybe it’s been for a while that you’ve been going through something really challenging. But remember that God has a reason for this. We don’t see it right now on this side of eternity, but somehow God’s doing something that matters. Alright, God bless you. I love you. Thank you so much for joining me, and I’ll talk to you next Tuesday.

32:26
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Juana Mikels of choosinghim.com. Juana is a wife and mother of 4; her youngest daughter was born blind. She shares about her marriage that almost fell apart. Neither were believers when they married. It’s an incredible story of how they were separated for a long time and what God did to bring them back together. Juana encourages us to honor and cherish the man He has given us.

Scripture/Quote:

“The wise woman builds her house, but with her own hands the foolish one tears hers down.” Proverbs 14:1

You’ll Discover:

• How Juana and her husband’s marriage almost fell apart and no one encouraged her to go back together with him.
• How they were surprised by their fourth child being born blind.
• How Juana respected her husband as the spiritual leader even when he was not a believer.
• How Juana is thankful for her husband and focusing on what God has given to her.

Tweetables:

• Mourning remains for a night but joy comes in the morning.
• He began to show me that His perfect will was to be willing to be married to my husband.
• To experience that full intimacy is for you to be spiritually intimate too.
• You’re going to have to stand before God for  part.
• Lord, you gave me this husband. I’ll take him!
• Eve had the whole garden and she fixated on the one thing she wasn’t given. And we’ve been a mess ever since.
• No person can meet all your needs, because only God can do that.

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• Choosing Him All Over Again: A Story of Romance and Redemption
• www.bsfinternational.org

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:19
Hello there and Merry Christmas. It is that time of year I’m so excited that Christmas is just around the corner. A couple weeks away, I took my two sons out to see Christmas lights last night. And my two year old, many of you know I’ve got a one year old and a two and a half year old. But my two year old, two and a half year old was jumping around and yelling and pointing and so excited about the lights. It was really fun. So we got to do that. I don’t know if your lights are up yet or if you have certain traditions that your family does to celebrate this time of year. But I hope that you are enjoying the days of Advent and enjoying thinking about Christ our Savior is born. So I’m so glad that you are listening today. We’ve got a great show for you. And before we dive in, I want to read to you a review that I recently received. And I was really thrilled when I got it. It’s a little bit longer, but I’m going to read it to you says grateful to found this podcast as the title. I found this podcast a little less than two months ago coming out of a difficult time in my young marriage. I wanted to hear some godly advice on a marriage on marriage and thought an easily available podcast may be the way to go. Fast forward and I have listened to all 73 dy M podcasts. In that short time. I have been married for a year and a half and I naively believed we’d always just live on love. I learned from Bella and her amazing guests. Yes, they are amazing that I must be intentional about keeping my marriage strong. I can say wholeheartedly that I’ve made serious changes in my marriage since finding this podcast Praise God. Even my husband asked What’s up belah thank you so much for your ministry, possibly going where few Christian women have gone before. I’ve told many of my friends and have them listening, they reported back they tell me that they love it. We eagerly await each week for your new podcast. God bless you. That is so awesome to hear. Thank you so much for the review. And for anyone who has told their friends about dy M, I just want to say thank you so much. That’s really how you get the word out about this podcast. And it’s helping marriages, you just never know what it could do for someone else’s marriage. So thank you so much for sharing it. Now I’m wondering if you have already figured out what you’re getting your husband or wife for Christmas. Now I do have a suggestion for the wives. I hope you don’t mind if I share with you about my book, I wrote this book, because it’s called delight your husband. I wrote it because I wish I had had it when I was first married. Instead of the misery, embarrassment, even humiliation and pain that I went through around the area of intimacy. I just wish I didn’t have to do that. It was quite a process for me. But God has brought me to a place of confidence and actually enjoyment. And so that’s what I want for you delight your husband takes a wife by the hand through her story, exploring the many blocks that may be stopping her from being able to enjoy the experience and giving her all the tools and understanding she needs and many specific techniques to be able to fully engage and become confident, passionate in the area of intimacy, and specifically even in the area of oral sex. And so I think it’s just a real great opportunity for a wife to learn how her husband thinks about sex, and how to really allow him to fully enjoy the experience. So that’s delight your husband. And actually right now, from now until Christmas, I have a 25% off deal. So if you go to delight your marriage.com you click on the delight your husband icon, you’ll be able to get 25% off if you use the code Christmas. So I think it’d be a wonderful, wonderful gift for your husband to really understand how he thinks and how he feels about sex and how his body works and, and how to work his body and actually understand that and it’s a wonderful, godly holy thing inside of marriage and a wife should truly embody that and fully enjoy intimacy in that way. So I would love to share that resource with you. Okay, well, let’s go ahead and dive into today’s interview. I’m really excited to have one of Michaels with us. She has just an amazing story and a wonderful perspective about marriage. And so let’s go ahead and dive in to her interview.

5:03
All right, welcome back. delight your marriage listener. I’m thrilled that you’re with me because I have one of Michael’s on the line. And she’s just wonderful lady, and I’m excited to talk to her about her story. And welcome. Wanna Thank you, Bella,

5:15
I’m glad to be here

5:17
I am, too. I’m really glad you’re here. And Juana has a website choosing him.com. And it goes along with her book that she’s going to talk about, too. But one, would you go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit about your family and your day to day life?

5:31
Well, I’ll be happy to kind of hate to tell the ending because we had such a shaky start. But if you want me to tell your listeners the wonderful ending, well, we’ll start at the end of the movie. Okay. Yeah, well, the end of the movie is that we’ve have a beautiful Christian family. We have four children that have grown up on me, two girls, and two boys in the middle. And they are now 2623 21 and 18. And I have ever known is a Christian family. They were born into our Christian family. So it’s such a such a beautiful example of God’s grace, because that’s all they’ve ever known.

6:11
Wow. That’s awesome. So do you have any at home now? Are they all gone?

6:16
We basically have one at home. The youngest who is in high school, the the next 121 He will graduate from University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, this may so may be home for a few months, but they’re all my kids are real independent. And so they he I don’t anticipate him being home too long, but always told our children, you can always come home anytime you you need to. So mom was hoping he will come back a few more months. That’d be great.

6:45
Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. Well, can you tell us a little bit about your and your husband’s personalities?

6:52
Sure. It’s pretty typical in that I probably say about 200,000 words to his. And then another thing that’s probably pretty typical is I go up and down and up and down in terms of my emotions, and my excitement and my passion. And he’s just so strong and level and steady, Eddie. And I really love the way that he is. Although when we’re in a, we’re in a good old argument. I don’t really like it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Nor does he, by the way.

7:31
Yeah. Well, this whole podcast is really about inspiring and empowering wives to live in wholehearted intimacy in their marriages. And so I’d love to hear if you have a favorite quote, or scripture that is meant a lot to you,

7:45
oh, I actually have my Bible open with the scripture that I sign with every book that I sign, which is Proverbs 14, one, the wise woman builds her house, but with her own hands, the foolish one, tears hers down. And I was and really still tend to be that foolish woman. And without the grace of God in my life, I would still be tearing my house down, and still, on occasion do and have to come back and ask for forgiveness. And it’s just my nature to not cling to Christ to not Yeah, I’m not only cling to Christ, but to come close to Terry, my nature is to be extremely independent, and to do what I want to do. And it really leads to a lot of problems. It’s only when I humble myself and tell him that I’m sorry. And humble myself to God, and tell him that I’m sorry. That really, he God guides me to do what it is that I need to do, which is Bill, my husband, by my husband, and my home up and be more more, you know, be closer to my husband or intimate with my husband, and not tearing my house down.

8:56
Yeah, yeah, that’s so good. I mean, I love that you you said without the grace of God in your life, you’d still be tearing down your house. So I just, it’s just so true. We need to rely on God so much Oh, for the day to day as

9:08
well. I just yesterday, he asked me what I Please clean out the refrigerator door. And I said know what by refrigerator. And he said the refrigerator door it probably won’t take but about 30 minutes because somebody about six months ago dropped all the chocolate sauce on the shelves. And it’s just the entire drip of like, oh about an inch wide real sick and stuck to the door and I noticed it. And I think I thought that maybe in a couple of decades I might clean it. A husband is much much neater than me. And it really works against us having a close relationship that I am not that way and he naturally is. And so he asked me but it it sort of made me mad because I had something else I wanted to do that you’re fascinating on for a couple of weeks and And it’s gonna take me a good few hours to do it. It’s paperwork and computer related. And I kind of like to do those things. Even though I’ve been procrastinating, I don’t really like to get out a knife and get the sticky stuff off the door. And, and he just asked me to do it. And I really didn’t have a good response. And I didn’t react very humbly. And it kind of led into an argument. I ended up doing it yesterday. And I did it before I even started the other project. In fact, I never got to the other project again. But it really wasn’t an interruption to what I wanted to do. It was exactly what I needed to do was to honor what he asked me to do first. And you think you would think that I know this lesson, because I teach classes on time management. And one of the things I tell the women is do what your husband asked you to do first, or any authority in your life. And of course, as Christian women, our husband is an authority in our life. And so I know better than this, but I what the Bible calls so slow to learn. And like I told you, I’m independent, I’m resistant, I want to do what I want to do. And it always it always leads to trouble. When I do that. i After cleaning it, I it really didn’t take me that long. And it looks so nice. I like it better. Just the reason I tell women to do what he asked us to do first, if he asked you to call, you know, the cable company and figure out that bill or Verizon or whatever it is, go ahead and do that first. Because your day is probably going to end and you’re not going to get it in. And this is a way to honor your husband, and it will help you to be draw closer to each other because it shows that you respect him. And here I am telling your listeners this and they’re going wait a minute. Yeah. Just yesterday. She didn’t want to claim that. So I just want to be very humble myself with you all to to show you. It’s not easy for me. And I have to boss myself around to do what I need to do.

12:04
Yeah, no, I think that’s great. I appreciate your being real and vulnerable with that. Because I think if we all pretend that we have, you know, a perfect marriages where that doesn’t help anyone learn and grow, you know, so I just appreciate that so much. And I want to hear that story of that difficult season or struggle in your marriage, how, how it started for you all and, and how you overcame that, if you can,

12:27
yes, I’ll do my best to try and give you the condensed version, because in my book, choosing him all over again, this story of romance and redemption. I tell the complete story along with teaching on marriage and teaching for singles and those that have a troubled marriage or those that have a good marriage. It’s on faith and marriage. But to tell your listeners kind of the quick story is when we were first married, we were married about a year and a half, two years into the marriage, I became extremely disillusioned. In the marriage. We were not believers, although I had grown up in church all my life. And Terry had had a little bit of experience in church himself. Neither one of us had a personal relationship with the Lord. And so two years into the marriage, I had been trying to do it all on my own. I thought that Terry was to meet all my needs. And when I didn’t see that happening, I was just so sad. And told him month after month after month through a lot of tears on Saturday mornings when he would be ready to go off and his convertible and go play golf with all this his friends. I would just be crying at home. And he didn’t know what to do with me, I would always bounce back. And we we both settled in Raleigh, North Carolina, where we both went to college. So we had a lot of friends settled here, we had a lot to do, because we both worked for Fortune 500 companies in sales. And then we had all these friends that all that settled here that were married, so we had plenty to do. But yet when I was idle on Saturday morning, I was just so sad because I knew something was missing in our marriage. And what ended up happening is I ended up moving out, and we were separated for two years. Wow. And in that two year separation. We went months and months and months. And we got no encouragement from family or friends not one person encouraged us to try to work our marriage out. They both said, Hey, there’s a lot a lot of others out there. You’re young and I really believe that to that this was the time to I never thought I would be divorced. I didn’t want to be divorced, but we didn’t have any children. And since we were only I was only 22 When we married and he was 24 I thought hey, if we’re gonna if we’re going to divorce sad as it is, it’s better to do it because thank goodness we don’t have any children. My God had other plans. In the middle of this this turmoil. I met the Lord through some other people, new friends I ended up meeting the Lord And we ended up reconciling two years after I had left. And there’s a lot more to the story. And I tell all that with a whole lot more in the book, but Terry ended up coming to the Lord seven years after me. Wow. About five or six years after we reconciled, Terry also came to the Lord and ended up being a wonderful spiritual leader that he is today. And such a decision maker and a wonderful father. And I shudder to think belah of all I would have missed had not gotten on God’s path. And the biggest thing would be our four beautiful children.

15:42
Hmm, yeah. And when did they come along in the picture, did they, after he became a Christian or

15:48
before we reconciled, and then two years later, our first child came along with the very first Christmas a year after we reconciled, we got a little Golden Retriever puppy, and had her for 17 years, but two years after we reconciled, we had our first child, Blair, a girl, okay. And then, nearly three years later, a son, and two years later, almost to the day, another son, then three years later, our daughter, our daughter, Mary was born, who was born totally blind, by the way, oh, my god, Mary and I, by then had been Christians for, for me almost 1010 years. And we already had a Christian home by that point. And we, we, our faith was going to help us so much not only through our marriage, but in the birth of our fourth child that was born totally blind. She was born without any eyes whatsoever, no optic nerve, she’s totally blonde, but your listeners, listen to her sing. She’s just such a blessing plays the violin sing beautifully, and such a blessing in so many people’s lives. But yes, we did. We did reconcile two years after we were married. And then Terry went on to become a Christian through the ministry of Bible Study Fellowship BSF and became a wonderful leader for our family.

17:16
Wow. Wow. I mean, I think that’s amazing. The just your story so far, but also your daughter having such a challenging situation. I can’t imagine parenting. I think that must have been so challenging.

17:32
It was but we were in the hospital when she was born. You talk about intimacy with your Yeah, we didn’t even you know the other three babies. You know, I know the routine we call our family we call our friends. We’re so excited. When Mary was born it I didn’t know if any of mine were even boys or girls that we didn’t want to. I want them all to be surprises. But yeah, I did that too. I was married to surprise and I cried. I cried out. But you know, Bella, we didn’t stay there. The Scripture says, morning remains for a night but joy comes in the morning. And yeah, we donate we cried hard together for 10 minutes. But then we didn’t cry anymore. We clogged word and we we didn’t call anyone we for hours, we just kept cleaning to each other and reading God’s word. And we wanted to read the story of when that baby was born blind. We knew it was in the Bible. And we finally found it and John chapter nine and other verses, Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness and all these things will be added to you because my husband found himself worrying about Mary’s life and 20 years down the road. And that those scriptures brought such comfort to him and others to me. But interesting when we had separated and I became a Christian it was the same scripture that’s shared with me seek first His kingdom and His righteousness and all these other problems wanna will fall into place the problem of I thought I didn’t love my husband. I not like I had left him because he should should have been a friend of mine. I didn’t love him. He was more like it was like kissing my brother or my cousin or something. I didn’t see how God could possibly work this out this broken marriage. Now I’m going way back when when I had left him and those those are Morial years when we were separated, but yet as I saw God and sought his kingdom first having become a believer in our separation and, and began reading His word and was going to a Bible believing church and began to learn to pray. He began to change my heart. And he began to show me that His perfect will was to be willing to be willing to be married to Terry the youth. And once I was willing, first I made that decision and then he began to flood me with the feelings this love for Terry who by the way, said Well thank you very much wanna when I presented him a list 1/4 of July, day at right after the fourth of July. He had actually had another date on the Fourth of July meeting and by that point it found someone else and had no ill feelings and no baggage with her because he was laughing again and, and got on with his life and sort of forgotten about me when I suddenly enter back in having become a Christian and present him with this list of 17 areas to forgive me, the first one which was, forgive me for please, leaving you after I promise to love you and be with you until death part of us and then leaving you to find someone else. And I didn’t have anyone else waiting in the wings for me, but I sure was hoping to find someone and to start up. But yet God says, when you become a Christian, you’re a new creation in Christ and everything is new. And Bella, I’m here to rejoice it from the mountaintops. And that was one reason that I wrote our whole story out, was that all things really become new, everything was new. I didn’t even enjoy intimacy. When I first got married. I had never been with anyone I had never had a boyfriend before. And so when we got married, even sex was hard for me. Because, yeah, it, it was nothing. Like when we became reconciled afterward, God tells us all things are new. Yeah, they are. All things are new.

21:28
Wow. That’s amazing. That’s amazing. And I, I love the seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be what is the last part will be gathered unto you. So added on to you added unto you yesterday. So so that I mean, that’s really your story that that, that that happened that you sought first God’s kingdom and you brought this list that you needed forgiveness of, to your husband, which again, with the humility theme, I mean, that’s not an easy thing to do.

21:59
Yes. And then he totally rejected me and said, well, thank you very much, and you folded it up and put it in his pocket. And he said, but I don’t want to be married to you. Because you see, so many months had gone by, and he What I didn’t know, then he is he had total unforgiveness and actually anger toward me, because I had walked out on the marriage. And he had so much anger and unforgiveness, it would take quite a bit of time. And really, it was not till he really came to Christ, that it was really, his life really began to slowly just like mine, to change. But Bible says that if, if one of you, if he if you if you become a believer, or you’re a believer and your husband’s not, of course, it’s always his will be for the fact to be yoked with a believer. And so if you’re listening and you’re not married, it’s always his will for two believers to marry. And it’s not because he’s trying to spoil your fun. But he knows for you really to experience that full intimacy is for you to be spiritually intimate to, and that is for you both to be on the same page for you both to have the same values, where you both know Christ personally, so that you share that together. Because it’s so much harder if one of you is a believer, and the other is not. But if you are already married, as was the case with me, and I became a believer first. He tells us in Corinthians two if your partner is willing to stay with you, by all means, let him stay because how do you know that he will not become a believer by your very witness in the home or, and that’s exactly what happened to me is my husband became a believer or when my second child was two years old, through the ministry of Bible study, fellowship. And so we have direct, we have clear direction on that in his word, but if he’s not willing, and he wants to leave, let him leave. Or if there’s a man that happens to be listening today, let Hurley if she’s not willing, it says that you are not bound by such circumstances. In other words, you can still lead an abundant full life, even if you end up divorcing you know, God hates divorce, because he knows of all the broken pieces there will be and those broken pieces will have to be mended. But if they don’t want to live with you, let them leave. Because there is nothing, nothing that can separate you. From the love of God, not death, not divorce, not anything. So you can seek Him with your whole heart. And you can have a Ribet relationship with Christ and a vibrant abundant life, even if you end up divorcing but if you’re in a troubled marriage, there it can be transformed. If he’s willing to stay with you if she’s willing to stay with you because we’re live we’re living example of that in this April. Mela, we’re gonna celebrate our 35th wedding anniversary.

24:58
Wow, praise God. Who would have been amazing

25:01
and, and I don’t deserve this, but Focus on the Family Radio has just invited me to come on. And that program is going to airdate in June of 2016. I think it’s slotted right now for June 10. And we go and record that in March. And so I am so grateful that God gave me the blessing of Terry in my life, and that he allowed me to write our story out. And I’m not even a writer, I was a math the numbers girl doesn’t even have to have you have the skills he needs. You just do what he wants you to do. And he’ll equip you in your marriage as a wife, as a mother. And in our case, in my case, as a writer, because I’m not a writer. But that’s awesome. Wrote it out like I talk.

25:53
No, that’s really great. I want to ask you, you know, when when you all were reconciled? And then you were a Christian, he was not how, how did you figure out him being the spiritual leader without him following Christ.

26:09
And by the way, the husband, the Bible says, is the leader of the home. So if you’re listening today, and your husband is not a believer, he is still the leader of that home. And that’s the buck stops with him. Right? And there’s not too many husbands out there that are asking you to sleep with a boss or smoke, you know, pot. So it’s just the simple little things. If he asked you to please clean, the chocolate fudge is on the door, and he’s not a believer, do it? I mean, you can’t stand behind. Well, he’s not I don’t want to listen to him, because he’s not a but No, the Bible makes no distinction. He is the head of the home period. And so when Terry was not a believer, my place was to submit to Him, as a mom says, and it was actually easier than then later when he became a Christian. And I’ll tell you why. When he was not a believer, during those years, when I prayed for him to come to know Christ, I knew he didn’t have the help of the Holy Spirit. He didn’t know the Lord. And it was almost like, I cut him a lot of slack. Because I had the help of God of the universe on my side. And I knew God could do anything. I knew that he had saved me wretch that I was. And I knew that he had done that amazing work in my life, because it took me a long time to come come to Christ had so many, so many issues. And I tell those in the book, I had like five or six reasons why I couldn’t come to Christ, which they were all excuses. But I knew that Terry didn’t know the Lord. And so I knew that my biggest mission field was him. And so I think I was actually more cautious and had my guard up to to be, you know, be a witness at home. But then once, you know, fast forward to today, fast forward to him asking me to clean that refrigerator door. Hmm, I showed an ugly side yesterday. And it was a lot harder for me to do that when he didn’t know the Lord because I was always sort of on my toes and watching. Whereas now I get a little careless. Because it’s almost like you expect more because your husband is a believer. And and it’s really wrong. Because I want him to cut me slack. I want him to cut me slack when I’m when I mess up. Yeah, so. So really, we give me to give both? Both? A lot of grace.

28:37
Yeah. Well, and and so the the wife that’s listening right now that saying, Well, I would submit to Him. But the problem is he’s incredibly overbearing, or he is controlling, or are these kinds of really, you know, terrible qualities. I mean, what would you tell her?

29:02
There’s a wonderful prayer, I want to share a call that I keep in prayer, and I can read it. Right out of the back of the book, I gave the prayers that I prayed for all those years and still pray for him now. And then a couple of extra prayers that I absolutely love that I learned from that wonderful spiritual woman of our day, who has is now with the Lord Elizabeth Elliot, who wrote the foreword to my book because I was blessed to be mentored by her. But she she wrote a book a prayer, and I call it the eye keeping prayer. In let me let me just turn to it now and I’ll read, read that to you all. But it basically tells us, it tells us that your husband and his particular let me just read it. Lord, he’s your man. He’s the one you’ve given to me, his peculiarities and his personality you gave me I’ll take Help Me Lord, show me ways, Lord, to make his life as pleasant and easy as I can. Now, Lord, you work in him the changes you think need to be done, fulfill your purposes. Help me to remember in acceptance liath Peace. And that acceptance life piece. She’s actually Elizabeth was quoting the words of one of her mentors that she never was able to meet in person named Amy Carmichael, who was a missionary in India to Indian Irishmen missionary who spent decades in India. But, you know, show me ways, Lord to make his life as pleasant and easy as I can. So what I would say to that woman is you look for ways to make his life as pleasant and easy as you can. And you do your part, you do the wife’s part, you’re not responsible for what he says and what he does. And I think the temptation is to say, but God, but God, but you know, when you stand before God, you’re not going to go, but God, but he said, but he was, I mean, you’re going to have to stand before God for your part. He’s going to have to buck stops with him. And he’s going to have to stand before God as to what kind of husband he was. And again, the only the only thing that I would throw in here is like, I’m not talking about the husband that’s hitting his wife. You’re asking her to do something, you know, that is totally wrong. Because the other 99% of us, we basically just don’t want to submit. And you know, we just don’t go to the Chinese restaurant. We wanted to go have Italian tonight. And so we it’s all these little things in life that we just didn’t want to be intimate right now. Because we felt like everybody wanted something from us today. And now add our name today. 10 times right now are husband, are you kidding me? He wants to be intimate. I mean, do you see how busy I was today. And he didn’t even offer to help diaper the kids or anything. So we tend to see everything from our perspective. But how bad if we’re praying, Lord, every day, Lord, show me ways to make his life as easy and as pleasant as I can? Maybe he wouldn’t try to be so controlling if we were more loving and more sweet. Because maybe he’s trying to be controlling because every time he asks us to do something, or, or tells he knows, we’re going to do what we want to do anyway. So it’s almost like, Well, why didn’t you ask me? Because you’re going to do what you want to do anyway. So what if what if you were a wife that was so me just what I’m all this is what I’m saying, Mela, is this work on our part? Yeah, let’s work on our part. Because chances are, I mean, let’s say he’s 80% of the man, let’s be real generous, and say he’s 80% of the man. We want. You know, none of us are price packages. You know, we all have areas where let’s work on our part.

33:04
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, in the Facebook group that I have with, for the delight your marriage listeners, someone suggested writing down a list of all the reasons you have to respect your husband, and to read that list every day. And I thought that was just a good reminder of us, submitting ourselves to remembering that he’s a provider, he’s, he makes us laugh, or he takes care of the kids sometimes, or whatever they are.

33:33
Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s so biblical, because we want to be more like Mary, the mother of Jesus who said, be it unto me according to your word, you know, basically, Lord, have your way in my life. You gave me this husband, I’ll take him. I wouldn’t be the wife for why for this unique man. Don’t look at your friends. And, and there has been, you have this man, this particular peculiar man, his fingerprint, that’s the man for me. It’s Terry Michaels. I’ll take him, I’ll take him. And we don’t want to be like what I call grandmother, he who had everything she could have wanted in that garden, she had, everything was most beautiful place, and she fixated on the one thing she wasn’t given. And we’ve been in a mess ever since. Just like you do on that Facebook page. Let’s look at all you know, if it’s not 80% Let’s look at that and say, Thank You, Lord, that he’s a good provider. Thank you, Lord, that he’s the coach of my son’s you know, 1000s Thank you, Lord, that he’s faithful. They Yeah, he works hard. You know, because if you look at what you don’t have, like grandmother Eve, it’s gonna be a mess. You know, that’s gonna lead to complaining and whining and not being thankful. And as you read the Bible, Christians are supposed to be the most thankful people on the planet. Grateful thankful people Yeah, that’s right thankful for what God’s given. Yeah, I love that.

35:05
And, and again with seeking first the kingdom of God, and that all these things will be added to you. And I love that you said when you’re willing, first of all, you had to be willing. And then the feelings flooded in. Yes. Yes. Can you give a little bit more flesh that out a little bit for us what that means? Well,

35:24
I think for me if I go back all those years ago, it I mean, it goes all the way back to being willing to live with this man being willing to live with him who was one, not a believer. Number two, I left him in the first place. One of the things was that he wasn’t meeting my knee, it’s just was showing me that that was so unrealistic that no person can meet all my needs. No, I would just be trading my problems, from one set of problems to another set of problems with a new man, you may not be the same ones, but nobody’s perfect. And no one could meet all my needs. Because only God can do that. God can do that. But so back then it might have been there was you know, being willing to be the wife of tear Michaels and trusting God with all the rest, that God was going to work it out. If that was his will, he was going to work everything out for my best interest. And he did. He even gave me the feelings back from my husband, which follow, which follow you know, we don’t wait to feel warm and fuzzy about something if we wait, wait till we feel good about something. If I went to I felt good to get out of bed. I’d never get out of bed. Because I like the morning. I don’t really like leaving my soft pillow. And like, I really don’t like all that some people are morning people. They jump up like my husband, but I hit snooze twice. And yeah, let me let me fast forward to when Mary was born, our fourth child was born blind. If I had felt, if I waited, too, I felt good about her being born blind. I never to this day, and she’s 18 I would I would be a mess. But as I lay in that hospital, hospital bed, and I know I said earlier in the beginning program that we cried, we cried hard, but we stopped crying. Because as we read His word, it was so clear that God was saying, Will you trust me wanna I didn’t hear him in the room. And in my heart, you know, in my Yeah, off quiet voice was saying. Will you trust me? Will you trust me that I know what I’m doing? Yes. It’s different from your other three babies. Yes, this is different hospital experience. Yes. You don’t feel like trusting Nora right now. But will you trust me right now? Yeah. And I can say as I lay in that hospital bed when she was born, that it was by an act of my will, it was a decision. And you know, obedience to God always lies in the will. It’s not in the emotions, it’s in the will you decide. I am going to put my trust in Christ in the beginning to begin a relationship with him and become a Christian. And then a continual? Yes, your Lord. Yes. Will you? Yes, Lord. This man, will you say yes, Lord in that hospital experience having that baby born blind? Will you say yes, Lord, when your husband asks you to clean the refrigerator. You don’t want to do that right now. Will you say when your husband looks at you, and you know, he this is going to lead to intimacy. He wants to be intimate with you, right? We’re just getting ready to go to Target and that is the keys in my hand. And I’ve got my list ready? And I mean, I’m a Dasher. I’m slow to get started hitting snooze. But once I get started, I’m like trying to get 10 pounds in a five pound bag. Yeah. And when he looks at me, and he’s ready, like nobody’s home, hon, come on. I’m thinking but I’m going to target and from there, I’m going to the bank. That is what I want to say. It’s like God is saying will you drop your keys and take off your clothes and say Yes, Lord, right. So I have to say that I quicker now I don’t always have the right facial expression and I’m working on that. Because Terry very and I’m very grateful. I have a husband that’s very communicative with me and he tells me what I don’t want to hear and I don’t usually like it but I’m when the dust settles. I am very, very grateful because I have friends whose husbands will just sweep it under the rug and they won’t tell them not to stand or not do this or not do that but my husband tells me what I don’t want to hear. Like you cannot take on that speaking engagement. You will be way too tired. or it’s our son’s birthday the next day, you can’t do that. Right? He’s always protecting me. So I’m working on having the right face when he surprises me, and wants to take a shower together. And I don’t want to take a second shower today.

40:15
But this is one of my main roles. I mean, this is something no one else can do. He’s not asking someone else to take a shower with him when we got big, right? There is praying for my husband making his life as as as easy and pleasant as I can one of those ways you’re being close to him naked without any clothes on. He doesn’t want flannel, he doesn’t want denim. He wants my skin. And so, you know, in God wants us to have fun. I’m making this sound like it’s a burden to me. It’s not I mean, once we get started, I’m having fun too. It’s just those first three minutes when I had other plans. So I’m working on all this, you know, trying to trying to adjust to the husband that God gave me and saying, yes, yeah. Yes, Lord. But to everybody listening, you know, this is the most spiritual thing you can do. It’s not teaching Bible study. It’s not writing a book, it’s not going on focused on the family. It’s not it’s it’s being intimate with your husband in your marriage bed that God gave you. It’s being with your husband on a walk, because he wants to meet you during lunch and walk with you. That’s something my husband really likes to do. And I would never walk Otherwise, I wouldn’t. I just wouldn’t do it, because I’m really lazy in that regard. But anyway, if you asked me to organize a party, or you asked me to organize the whole neighborhood, in something I love, but I, I will put exercise at the very bottom, bottom bottom. But I have friends that are marathon runners, I mean, we’re just all different. Right? But that man that he gave you is your husband, the way he made him, God made him. And let’s just say, I’ll take him and let’s do these things that no other other woman can do for him. And that is pray for him as his unique way. Make his life as pleasant easy as I can, you know, be intimate with your husband, shower with him do those things along with him that he wants you to do, and will help you to just to grow closer together.

42:13
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You said that. That’s a spiritual thing you can do.

42:17
Oh, for the two to become one is the most spiritual thing you can do. That was all God’s idea. It wasn’t Hollywood. I mean, they just stored it. And don’t watch that stuff. You know, don’t don’t watch it. Just Rob be creative with the two of you. Not watching someone else. But how God God created you all to be intimate together.

42:43
Wow, thank you wanna? That’s awesome. I think one of the, you know, most central themes that Juana really talks about is cherishing your husband as the one that God gave you. This is your man, this is the one that you are to minister to, and those many ways of praying and intimacy and loving in all areas of your life. So I just want to encourage you to just be intentional about these things. I love one a story of love her heart, she’s got a great second half of this that’s coming out next Tuesday. So come back for that. And go ahead to delight your marriage and click on the delight your husband icon and you can check out my book. Maybe this is the right gift for your husband this year. This might be something that would be really amazing for the two of you. So check that out. Otherwise, thank you so much for listening. God bless you. I’m praying for you and your marriage. Have a great rest of your day. God bless.

43:43
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by the show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Tony Ingrassia of powerofpurity.org. Tony is incredibly brave to share his story. He describes the importance of understanding your sexual journey and how it affects who you are today. He happened upon his father’s pornography as a kid, was abused as a young man which led into adulterous affairs when he was unhappily married. Tony shares the hope found in our saviour and how God can take the horrible parts of our lives and resurrect into new life.

Scripture/Quote:

• It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God;  and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister.[b] The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before.  For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 1 Thess 4:3-7

You’ll Discover:

• How Tony’s wife Sherry had been abused as a young girl and how that affected her marriage from the very first night.
• How Tony had discovered his father’s porn stash and became hooked as a young man.
• How our stories affect our present and how important it is to honestly and bravely understand what has happened to us.
• How God uses our spouse to mold us into the person He wants us to be.
• How God takes the dead and terrible places of our lives and brings new life, just like the resurrection of Christ.

Tweetables:

• God doesn’t waste our pain.
• Our greatest opportunity for ministry is where the deepest brokenness of our life intersect with the grace and the mercy of God.
• God may use your spouse to mold you into the person with the character He wants for you to be.
• I think it’s incredibly important to understand our story and we let God into our story to bring our healing.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:18
Hello, hello and welcome. This is the delight your marriage podcast. And I want to thank you so much for joining me today. This is about you and your marriage and your intimacy and having a wholehearted life in your marriage. And today we’re going to be talking about stories each of us brings baggage into our marriage, each one of us none of us is exempt from this and and we also have baggage from being in our marriage and having bad habits or having things that we just need to work through with God. And so today we’re talking to Tony and he is going to be talking about his story which is just incredible. You won’t well I’ll let you listen to it but it but there’s plenty of abuse and, and sad things that have happened and he talks about how his story has needed God’s redemption in every corner and, and how he’s worked through that. Before we dive in. I want to share with you an iTunes review. It says thank you belah rose for having the courage and tenacity to bring an often taboo subject to the forefront and for approaching it with scripture purity and wisdom. Husbands and wives desperately need godly guidance in the area of sexuality, especially what God Almighty created to set us apart as a married couple. Satan has perverted with his deception. Our culture is sex saturated lust saturated and falling fast from what God intended to be sacred. Thank you for your honesty. So I just so appreciate that review. And anyone that has given an iTunes review for the delight your marriage podcast you are, well I’m so grateful for you because you were helping spread the word of dy M it actually makes dy m more findable and searchable in iTunes. So thank you so much for that and also it just very much encourages me so um, but I am excited. Let’s go ahead and dive into today’s topic with Tony.

2:12
Okay, well welcome back delight your marriage listener. I am really excited to have you with us today I

2:29
have a wonderful guest. His name is Tony Ingrassia. And he has a website called The Power of purity or sorry, power of purity.org. And he runs a ministry called The Power of purity, and welcomes Tony, how are you today?

2:44
I’m fantastic. And thank you belah for the opportunity to share. It’s a pleasure to meet you.

2:49
Oh, I so appreciate it. Well, I think this is going to be an awesome conversation. And I think you have so much to share. Now I’d love for you to introduce yourself and a little about your family and your day to day life if you would.

3:01
Sure. Yeah, I’m my name is Tony. I’m 58 years old, and I’m married to my wonderful wife, Sherry, we’ve been married for 32 years. And it’s it’s really a miracle. Our marriage is a miracle. Because we’ve really experienced the grace and the mercy of God, we went to hell and back in the context of our marriage. So the fact the fact that we’re still together is truly a miracle of God. We have three sons and three granddaughters, and I’m in the ministry full time. Basically, my time in ministry is divided into three sections. I pastor, a small church in St. Charles, Missouri, called the outpost church. And I’m also a licensed professional counselor in the state of Missouri. So I do some professional counseling. And then I’m the director of a ministry called The Power of purity. And we have a website, power purity.org. And the essence of this, essentially, this ministry was born out of the deepest brokenness of my life and my my wife’s life, really, because we were to deeply profoundly broken people in the sexual area of our lives. And there were a lot of implications to that, throughout our marriage and things that we had to come to learn and understand. But anyway, the power of purity was born out of that. And essentially, we try to share with people what it means to bring your sexual gift under the authority of God, and to do sex God’s way. Because we found out that, you know, I did set Tony’s way for a long, long time, my wife was doing sex Sherry’s way, and it leads to hurt and destruction and pain and confusion and disorientation. And God’s way of doing sex is way, way better than our way. So as we, as we learn to bring our sexual gift under the authority of God, we find hope we find healing, we find redemption. And it’s just been an awesome journey, what the Lord has done in our hearts and our lives.

5:19
That’s really exciting. I’m so excited to, to dive into your story more. And before we do that, would you mind sharing a little bit about you and Sherry’s personalities?

5:31
I’m, I’m kind of an extrovert. I’m more outgoing. I’m more verbal and expressive. And I communicate, I’m more outward, essentially, in my wife, Sherry is more of an inward person, more shy, more quiet. She needs to simmer sometimes to figure out what she’s thinking what she’s feeling. So that that’s been something we’ve had to learn about and has been a source of tension over the years in our marriage. And we had to learn to understand each other, and how how we work as individuals, and then the implications of that, on who we are together as a couple.

6:15
Huh, right. Yeah. And then, you know, this, this podcast is really all about inspiring and empowering wives to live wholehearted intimacy in their marriages. And I’d love for you to share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years if you could.

6:32
That’s kind of a hard one. Because I could I can probably pick so many. I think I know where I’m going to go here. I’m turning in my Bible. Well, let me go here to First Thessalonians chapter four. It says it is God’s will that you should be sanctified, that you should avoid sexual immorality, that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust, like the heathen who do not know God, and that in this matter, no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish man for all such sins, as we have already told you and warn you, For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. And I love that scripture. Because it conveys to me the very real possibility that we can learn to manage our body in a way that is holy and honorable to God.

7:32
Hmm. Yeah, that’s good. Well, would you be willing to dive into the story, then have a difficult season and struggle with your marriage? Yes,

7:44
very much. So. I, my wife isn’t here, of course, the interviews with me. But I just want everybody to know, as I talk about our story, I do so with my wife’s permission, we believe very much that, that, that God wants us to share our story with others, to try to help and encourage other people. And we’ve learned we’ve learned that kind of a principle of God’s Kingdom is God doesn’t waste our pain, you know. And I’ve heard it said that our greatest opportunity for ministry is where the deepest brokenness of our life intersects with the grace and the mercy of God. And so, in an ironic way, this this whole thing about sex represents not only the deepest pain and hurt and confusion, and disorientation and sin and brokenness of our lives, but it also represents the greatest expression and experience of God’s love and mercy and Power and Light and healing, and redemption, and forgiveness and salvation. So, you know, out of the deepest brokenness of our lives, comes comes the life of God. And so, so I think that our greatest message comes from our deepest brokenness, and that’s why we want we want to share our story. And by the way, it occurs to me and in these comments that I just shared, what we’re really talking about is the gospel of Christ. Because if you think about it, the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. And most of us would say, I’m very interested in that resurrection part. Like I’m raising my hand sign me up. Yeah, I want the life of God, the power of God, the healing of God. But But the interesting part in the template of the Gospel is that the death comes before the resurrection, that death, burial and resurrection. So Sometimes God allows a kind of death, a dying in our lives, a dying of self, a dying of our own independence and autonomy, and rebellion against God and Death to what I reflected on earlier a Tony’s going to do sex Tony’s way and manage my life my way. And so anyway, we certainly had our time of dying and God, and that, that qualifies us for the gospel because God then can come in and do his thing. Which is bring that so witches bring dead things back to life. And that’s what he’s done in my heart, in my sexual self, and in my marriage, and what he’s done in my wife as well. But anyway, did you want to ask some questions? Or do you want me to just kind of share a little bit of the story or?

10:39
Yeah, I would love for you to actually, if you could kind of bring us there to what happened and how it happened. And give us a full view of that. And I’ll ask some questions as we kind of get started that way. Okay.

10:50
Wow. So I’m just gonna share her and you just jump in and interrupt me if there’s a question or comment or observation, or if I’m not being clear about something. But anyway, as I said, my wife and I have been married for 32 years. We got married on September 17 1983. And we’re very convinced that, that when most people get married, when we say I do to each other, most of us have no idea what we’re getting into. I don’t think that most people really truly know who they’re marrying. I think that’s a reality. Because most of us maybe don’t even know ourselves that well, let alone the other person, you know. So married marriage has a way of revealing things, revealing who you really are, and who you’re who you married. And so often, the person you marry turns out to be very different than the person you thought you were married, you know. So I’m convinced that God uses marriage as a primary tool and anvil in human lives, you know, and one time in fact, I’ll throw this in for free. I know I’m not getting to my story yet. But the Lord gave me a metaphor one time. And in this metaphor, God is the blacksmith. And well, you know, a blacksmith needs to shape things. So he puts it in the fire and heats it up an old twisted piece of metal that he wants to seep into something. And then he puts it against an anvil, and he takes his hammer and he begins to beat it and pound on it, you know, if the blacksmith took the metal and just hit it with a hammer buying, buying, it would shake and rattle and he can leverage. So he realizes I have this tool, it’s called an anvil. It’s this gigantic, heavy piece of steel that I can put the metal against, and now I can pound the heck out of it. Bang, bang, bang, against the anvil. So in this metaphor, God showed me that God is the blacksmith, and my wife, Sherry, was God’s anvil in my life, and I’m a twisted messed up piece of metal that God’s trying to shape so God needed something that he could put Tony against, and then pound on my life. And without a doubt, God has used my beautiful wife Sherry, as as the most significant instrument of sanctification of God working in my heart and life, to reveal things about me to expose things to pound things out of me that needed to be pound out. And it’s, it’s a, it’s a wonderful process, and a terrible process, in the, in the way of the things of God and something that makes me sad as a pastor, and as a professional counselor, you know, I’m working with people frequently in deeply troubled marital situations and relationships, and, and I just see that people, in my opinion, and people often give up way too easy, you know, in them is this process is unfolding and God’s trying to do something, and the goings getting tough, and God has you against the anvil of your spouse, and he’s any starting to pound away. And it’s uncomfortable, you know, if that piece of metal had feelings or emotions, it would say, hey, this hurts God Quit hitting me what’s going on? I don’t like this. I didn’t sign up for this, you know, and that there would be and people give up, they hit the retail he jacked button, and people escaped their marriages. And I think it’s a shame because God often uses these things toward his redemptive purposes in our lives. But anyway, enough of that, I’m kind of I’m given a sermon that and I didn’t mean to do that. You actually me to share my story. Yeah, so I’m going to get to the story. Anyway, we got married. I was 26, my wife was 22. And suffice to say that our marriage was an instant disaster, and instant disaster, a total mess. And I mean, on our very wedding night, my wife did not want to make love. She very, very uncomfortable, something was wrong. Now the event did happen. But I could tell something was wrong. It was not at all what, you know, the romantic stereotype of what your wedding night should be, I could tell that my wife was.

15:46
She was there physically. But it’s as if she wasn’t there. You understand what I mean? He wasn’t really present and connect. And I could tell something was very, very wrong. And I thought, Well, maybe it’s the helter skelter of our wedding day, people in from out of town and months and months of planning and being nervous and weddings, like a giant puzzle, all the pieces coming together, maybe tomorrow will be better maybe the next day. But but but it went from bad to worse. And and it was a very, very difficult situation. Well, let me go backwards for just a minute. And as you understand a little bit of our stories, it’ll make perfect sense to you why our wedding night was such a total disaster. I’ll start I’ll start with my wife just to share a little bit of her story. She grew up in a very dysfunctional home. By the way, it by insane that I don’t mean anything derogatory or against her family. I happen to believe that we all grow up in very functional homes, because basically, because the Bible says we’re every person is a sinner. So, you know, every home is dysfunctional in its own way. But Sherry’s mom and dad slept in separate beds, her entire life, separate separate bedrooms, so that that’s what was modeled for her as what how a husband and a wife lived together. Then at the age of 13, Sherry had intercourse for the first time, and which is way, way too young, as far as I’m concerned. And but to make matters worse, she was raped, she was essentially raped at the age of 13. And if I told you nothing more of her story, nothing more. Can you imagine how devastating an event like that would be any young lady’s heart and alive, right, right. So you would think that being raped at the age of 13, would lead to a posture of kind of resistance or an aversion to sex. But in her situation, it had the very opposite effect. And it basically invited her into a world of prompt a world of promiscuity. And she became rather promiscuous, ages 1314 1516. Then at the age of 17, she got pregnant and had an abortion. And this is all before she became a Christian. By the way, what was happening when she was 13 years old. Sherry was in with a group of gals. In her neighborhood, there was five or six girlfriends, and two of them were 16, so they could drive. And this there was a 15 year old a 14 And Sherry was the youngest at 13. So they would hang out. And one of these 16 year old girls had a boyfriend that lived in Illinois, and we live in Missouri in a St. Louis area. So all the girls would get in the car and go over to Illinois that this girl wanted to go see your boyfriend. Can you imagine a little 13 year old going to another state and her mother doesn’t even know that she’s doing this welding, they get to this house. And the Carlota girls goes in the house and there’s a bunch of guys in this house. Mom and Dad aren’t home. And in a short matter of time, an 18 year old guy got a hold of Cherie and basically pulled her in a back bedroom. And he did this thing to her now it wasn’t a it wasn’t a forcible rape in the sense that he punched her and kicked her and she was screaming No, no, it wasn’t like that. Basically, he perpetrated sex sexual intercourse upon her. She didn’t even really quite understand what was happening. Of course back to two illustrate the level of her naivete. She asked one of the older girls later. What is a virgin? Mean? Was he asked her during the event? Are you a virgin? And you know why he did that? Bella? No, I don’t know for sure. But I have a suspicion. And if I was a betting man, I’d bet a nickel. But he did that because I can only imagine it heightened his sense of conquest. Knowing that he was. Yeah, I’m sorry. I feel so sorry, emotional about that. That he was taking her virginity.

20:45
It heightened his sense of conquests to know that what he was doing to this little girl, you know. So she went through this promiscuity she had this abortion at the age of 18 and 19. Sherry then tried to commit suicide two different times. And the way that she tells the story is that she doesn’t even know why she wanted to die. All she knows is that she hated herself. He felt deep shame. And she intuitively knew that these boys didn’t love her didn’t really love her and want her for her. They wanted her for what they could get from her. Right and she she’s a young girl in the verbage of the the song looking for love in all the wrong places looking for love in too many faces. And so she wants a boyfriend like like any true blue red blooded American girl she wants to boyfriend to you know, will the boy think I’m pretty? Will a boy think I’m special? Will the boy want to kiss me will will avoid want to be my boyfriend. So she wants a boyfriend and what do all the guys want? They want to they want to get in her pants, you know. So she’s a very confused, young lady. Fortunately, both attempts were unsuccessful, unsuccessful. And so fast forward just two years at the I meet her at the age of 21. And almost instantly fall in love with her. If you saw, if you saw her picture, you’d know why. She’s a beautiful, gorgeous woman. And so I’m just looking at this person, and she’s a wonderful person and a beautiful person. And so we fall in love and decide that we’re going to get married. I didn’t understand Sherry story, that that’s what I meant when I said earlier that I think when when most of us get married, we don’t really understand each other’s story. We don’t necessarily understand who we’re marrying. And, of course, I didn’t understand any of sherry story. I didn’t even understand my own story at that point. Yeah. So so we got married. And that’s just a little bit of Shiri story. Now I’ll talk just a little bit of my story. I also grew up in a very dysfunctional home. My I had a very difficult relationship with my dad, my dad was, of course, you know, CS Lewis says that every person is that humanity is a glorious ruin. Every person has dignity and depravity, The Good, the Bad, the Ugly. So my dad, of course, was a wonderful, beautiful person is an image bearer of God, many wonderful qualities, but also, he had his depravity and he was a very, very angry man. So I basically grew up under a pavilion of fear. I was very, very afraid of my dad, you know, and my dad, although I didn’t understand, and at the time, I later came to understand that he was a very sexualized man, and he has a ton of pornography, stacks of pornographic magazines and X rated books and I discovered my dad’s porn, I think I was 10 years old. And so looking back, I’m kind of amazed at the power that pornography has in a young a young boy’s heart and soul. And I I embraced this experience when I found it, I was very drawn to the pornography. I became very involved in it, I indulged in it and I, I would seek it out, you know, after I found it now later when I was in my own therapeutic process, I came to understand some things about that event that that helped me understand why it was so powerful. I think for me, the pornography that I discovered as a young boy, I filled a kind of emotional neediness that I had, that I didn’t understand. The fact is in my family of origin, I already mentioned that I was I was afraid of my dad. And there just was no demonstrative

25:36
expression of love in my family. There was no touching, hugging, nobody said, I love you. I have no memory when I was a kid of sitting on a parent’s lap of being tucked in bed, of having my hair caressed. Having a book read to me, have ever been touched of other than an anger, you know? And I think there was kind of an emotional neediness in this little boy as if I was like, crying out Will someone please touch me? Will someone please love me. There was a kind of aloneness in my, in my young heart. And when I found the pornography, I think in a, in a odd way, the pornography was not just a physical or sexual event for me, but it was an emotional event because I saw in the pornography, something that I was longing for that I didn’t even understand people, people touching each other people expressing love, affection enjoying each other. So I think in an odd way, it affected me on a deep, profound emotional level. And the pornography was unbelievably powerful. And believe it or not, I really believe that my sexual addiction began probably at age 10, or 11. While then fast forward at the age of 13. Through 15, I was sexually abused by two older women. Oh, my goodness, I just want to mention one thing, and that is that I think it’s very sad that for, for a young boy that his very first sexual experiences are with these older women. And what I want to say is that these experiences affirm to me the very lessons that I was learning in the pornography that this is what women are like, this is what women do. This is what women want. This is, this is how you what sex is, this is how people treat each other. I was learning lessons about fidelity, I knew this woman was married, but but she was doing these things with me. So So faithfulness isn’t all that important. And it’s okay to play around in which the people in the pornography do and so, so the whole birth and orientation of my sexual self was just so twisted. It was so unholy. It was so ungodly, it was so the foundation, the sexual foundation that was being put in my heart and life was just, it was so disoriented, you know,

28:54
and I’m so grateful that you’re sharing and so openly and vulnerably, I thank you so much. Because I think that there are so many that are listening, that also have had such horrible things happen as children. That’s so many bad sexual experiences happen as children, and it does inform so much of what we come into marriage with so thank you.

29:15
Yes, I appreciate your kind words. And I just want to affirm what you’re saying, Bella. You know, there, there’s an adage that I like that the concept of fruit comes from roots. In fact, I’ve written several books on the topic of sexual purity on on the cover of two of my books, I have an image of a tree and it shows the canopy of the tree in this beautiful tree, but then it shows underground, and it shows the root system of the tree. And the idea is that the fruit that is produced on a tree ultimately comes from the roots fruit comes from roots, and apple trees. makes a apples and an orange tree makes oranges. But ultimately the fruit that comes out on a tree is from the roots. And later in my life, I became a Christian when I was 16 years old, and I love God and I wanted to serve God. And I wanted my life to count for God. But I had this horrible duplicity in my life because I had this problem with sex. And it seems like I could not manage my sexual self in a healthy way i i was acting now and doing things that I knew were dishonouring to God with my sexual self, but I was compelled i It’s like sex have this power over me, it control me, instead of me controlling it. And that’s part of the reason I shared the scripture I did earlier. It is God’s will that you be sanctified that you avoid sexual immorality that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable and not in passionate lust like the heathen. So I couldn’t control my body, you know? And, yeah, I had this, I had this problem. And I came to understand later that it was the issue of roots. You see the roots of the sexual roots that had been put in my life. These things were like seeds. You see. My dad’s pornography and sexual abuse and different things that happen are like seeds being sown in a boy’s heart. Well, there’s a there’s a problem with seeds belly, you know what it is? They sprout, say, and they take root and they begin to grow. Yeah, so yeah, yes, absolutely. On Holi roots, these ungodly roots that were sown, began to grow and put their tentacles into my heart. And now the trees, the sexual self of Tony is beginning to grow, and it’s producing the fruit of sexual sin. And I’m like, why? I don’t want this fruit on my tree anymore. Why does it keep coming out. And I basically learned that if you don’t deal with the ungodly roots, then the ungodly fruit is going to keep coming out. But But to your point in my power, my power purity.org. But I have 23 sessions there on the topic of sexual purity. And my my, the ACE session is called Understanding your story. And I think it’s incredibly important that people understand the story of their life. I can talk about this more in a little bit. But you see, to fast forward into my marriage, Sherry and I were a disaster, we didn’t know how to function in a healthy way sexually. And the reason for that is it had much to do with our story. In other words, the deepest pain and hurt and brokenness and sin of our lives was unattended. Sherry had never ever dealt with her family of origin. She never dealt with her rape, she never dealt with her promiscuity or her abortion. I had never dealt with my broken relationship with my dad, and they finding my dad’s pornography, I had never dealt with the sexual abuse that been perpetrated. So these are my gaping wounds and people symbols, and then you you get married, and without realizing it, your story. And these painful, hurtful things from your past, are still following you like your shadow, you cannot escape it. And until we understand our story, and face our story, and enter our story, and begin to deal with some of these hurtful, painful, wounded events and things that happen to us and process them in the light of God, the power of God under the blood of Jesus, the grace and mercy of God, that brings his healing to these most wounded places of our hearts and lives. And then then these things are going to hold power in our soul, you see. So I think it’s incredibly important that we understand our story, and we let God into our story to bring us healing.

34:15
Basically, what we’ve heard so far from your marriage is, is that you both came in with a really difficult past for not only Sherry, your wife, but also you who happened upon pornography at an early age and was abused and then came into marriage with this really difficult past. So I’m wondering, How did things move into healing for you both?

34:36
Well, that’s a great question. And thank God that there’s the second half of the story. You know, there’s the there’s the bad news, but then there’s the good news. It reminds me of the template of the gospel of the Gospels, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. We kind of talked about the death part, you know, everything that was wrong, but There’s something awesome about God. And that is that death is not even an obstacle for God that God can bring back to life, something that was dead. And then that’s what he did it the resurrection of Christ. And I believe that’s what the Lord wants to do in our lives. And the gospel isn’t intended to be something that we just believe in our head. I believe the gospel is a template that God wants us to live he He invites us into the gospel to live the gospel. And so God allows this kind of dying process where everything goes wrong, and there’s brokenness and darkness and pain and confusion and bondage and everything wrong and defined in one word, the word death, but but God has the ability to bring back to life. And that’s exactly what God has done in our hearts and lives. So we were married. As I said, Our marriage was an instant disaster. Essentially, I was a young man with a sexual addiction, and my wife was a young lady with a sexual aversion. And so we do, we’re often running and we were just not able to connect on an emotional, intimate level at all, my wife was completely shut down against me. She reported later that when we would attempt to be sexual, she she literally felt like she was being raped, and wanted to scream, and it just was torment for her. And so she wasn’t able to respond. And so we, we would go for prolonged periods of time without any physical or sexual intimacy, for months and months at a time. One time, we went nine months between physical intimacy then it might have been then might be four months, seven months. So so this was a disaster. And it really, really messed me up. I did not handle it. Well, I felt deeply hurt and rejected by my wife, I didn’t understand. Here, I am a Christian. You’re not supposed to have sex before you get married, and I had a lot of sex before I got married. So I felt guilty. Now I finally have a wife so I can have sex and it’s illegal to God, I won’t even get in trouble. And wouldn’t know what the woman that I that I marry, doesn’t want to have sex or can’t sex. So I began to act out and over over the years that followed, I became involved in several different adulterous affairs in the context of marriage. And of course, that made what was already a terrible situation that much worse. And, you know, John 1010, Jesus said, The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. And without a doubt, the devil was just trying to literally close the deal on our lives and just bring destruction upon us, you know. And what happened is, I eventually became involved in an adulterous affair with my wife’s best friend, which is profoundly terrible, and horrible and shameful. It’s one of the most shameful heinous things of my life. I you know, how you reflect back Bella on things you did? And you think, yes. Oh, my God, who was that? How, right? What was I thinking? How could I ever allow such a thing to happen? You know? Well,

38:47
I know you mean, absolutely. What we all have those things.

38:51
Thank God for His mercy. Why, yes, why we need a savior. But anyway, after this affair had gone on for some time, I never did get caught. But I actually ended up confessing to my wife, because of an odd Ministry of God that I call the heavy hand of God. I was just under such conviction, Bella, I felt so terrible about myself. And let me tell you, it is not a good day, when you look at yourself in the mirror, and you don’t like yourself anymore. And you you find yourself acting out in your life in violation of your own conscience. You understand what I’m saying? Like this is not who I am. This is not who I want to be. It’s not who I How did I ever get in this place? You know, so I just didn’t want to be this person and and I was just under such conviction from God, such heaviness from God that I literally physically would gas to Breathe. Sometimes I had trouble breathing. And I just knew I, something has to change. And so this particular night through a series of events, I went to my wife and I just confessed to her, I said, I’ve been having an affair with your best friend. And it’s terribly wrong, and I don’t want to do it anymore. And if you want to divorce me, we can get divorced but but protest the divorce, I do not want to get divorced. I want to fight for a marriage. But all I know is we can’t, we can’t stay the way that we’ve been. We are so messed up, we’ve got to try to work on this. And we cried together that night, my wife told me that she didn’t want to give up. And so within days, we went to a Christian counselor, and we we began going to counseling. And in the end, Bella, that process was profound, it took much longer than we expected, we ended up going to counseling for six and a half years. It was much longer than we expected. And the process with Mike went much deeper than we expected. And one time I figured it up afterwards, we easily spent $50,000 on our professional counseling process, which by the way, I think is a tremendous value. Because for several reasons. One is because divorces are very expensive. Yeah, but the second reason is because we were fighting for the highest values of our life, our family, our marriage, our rights, our ministry, our future. So it was worth the fight. And it was worth it was worth the money. You

41:47
know? Yeah. That’s great. I think anyone listening can keep that in mind that when you’re thinking about coaching, thinking about cancelling, I mean, this is really important stuff. You’re not just talking about one person’s life, you’re, you’re talking about a whole generation, potentially. Absolutely.

42:03
That is correct. And so the process, in part took a law that long, I think, because we were coming to understand our stories, as we were talking about earlier. You see, when we went into counseling, Bella, the problem wasn’t just who we were together in the context of our marriage. See, I was naive enough and shallow enough. When we started the process, I thought, and I positioned myself to the counselor, my problem is I’m married to a woman who won’t have sex with me. And I don’t know how to deal with that. So yeah, fix her. She’s the problem. And I thought the problem was in the context of our marriage, but see, we didn’t understand our stories yet. And so what’s very interesting about this process is that I like to say the unexpected thing about our therapeutic process is the God invited us into the stories of our life. As a professional counselor, now belah, I’ve come to believe, I do not think that most people understand the story of their own life. We might understand historical data, information and facts. Like my mom and dad got divorced, when I was nine, my sister was killed in a car accident when I was 12. I smoke pot for the first time when I was 13. I saw porn when I was 10 years old. I was molested, you know, at this age. So we know facts, but we don’t necessarily understand how all those things have worked together to impact us and shape our hearts and souls into the person that we become and how those things still hold power in our lives. So as I mentioned earlier, Sherry had never dealt with her rape, she had never dealt with her promiscuity, her abortion, there were all these things I had never dealt with. So it’s almost as if God was saying, I’m going to take you guys back into your stories, and we’re going to go back to the most wounded and broken and painful places of your journey in life. And that’s where God wanted to bring his light and his life and his healing in the blood of Jesus. And so we each had work to do as individuals, you see, and as as we NERT as God nurtured us through this process, and my wife was slowly dealing with these things in her heart and like she was slowly becoming a healthier woman, because she was dealing with these things she had never dealt with. And I was slowly becoming a healthier man because we were dealing with this poison that had been in our souls. And as we were slowly becoming healthier, guess what that creates the possibility that we could be healthier together, and we could begin to relate to gather in in healthier ways and new ways. And so it was a slow process. But God began to redeem our stories, the brokenness of our stories.

45:16
Wow, isn’t that powerful. Thank you so much, Tony. And you’ve got so many more insights to share on the second half of this interview, which is going live next Tuesday. But I think one of the reasons Tony can be so vulnerable and so open with his story is because he knows that he is not unique. He knows that there are so many others that have had such difficulty in so many sexual issues and pain and experiences. And he wants to help them and he knows that he can only help them if he shares his story and his his perspective openly and honestly. So thank you so much for that Tony. And I want to share also, if you have not yet had a safe place to share your story and, and get the godly perspective on it, and really hear where God’s coming from and how God loves you. Even if this difficult, terrible thing happened to you. I just want to encourage you to do that to get with a counselor or coach or someone who can share these things with you and men be wise counsel, to let you know that you are not marred by this any longer, you don’t have to be marred by this any longer. If you are interested in coaching with me, I do have a program for one month long program to talk about and process the pain and get God’s perspective on it. Because you shouldn’t have the identity of your past and your pain and your sexual sin. It’s it’s time to move forward, it’s time to get past this. So if you are interested in that you can go to delight your marriage.com click on contact and you can just type it in there. Let me just pray really quick right now. Father, you know who’s listening on the other line, and you love them. And you care so deeply about them used to care so deeply about their pain, and brokenness and, and hurt and God I just ask in Jesus name that you would begin to heal. Father put the people in place that they need to be talking to, to heal from what they’ve experienced the Lord God, you know them and you care about them. You love them. I pray that you make that so evident to them right now. Right where they are. Let them know how much you truly love them and heal their pain in Jesus name. Amen. Okay, well, thank you so much for tuning in today. I know. Next week is going to be awesome. So I hope that you’ll listen in to that. God bless you. Talk to you soon. Bye.

47:54
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Kay Bruner of kaybruner.com. Kay was a former missionary and had been to other parts of the world, sharing the Word of God. On this episode, Kay tells us about the struggles she and her husband went through in their relationship. She talks openly about her husband’s past porn addiction and how she felt devastated when she learned of this. She became severely depressed and anxious, to the point that she couldn’t move! Kay also shares about what it was like to transition back into the United States, with no church. She has an amazing story to tell, and I do urge you to listen to this interview, as I’m sure it will touch your heart.

You’ll Discover:

• The difficult season in which Kay, her husband, and her entire family had to go through
• How she reacted to the unfortunate things that happened while they were serving as missionaries abroad
• How Kay fell into the clutches of depression and anxiety
• How she learned that despite it all, she is loved by God because He delights in us
• How to be grateful amidst the challenges we face

Tweetables:

• Our trials were really the mercy of God.
• There is a whole other way of being that has nothing to do with my doing.
• God is so much more creative and redemptive than we can ever imagine.
• Life is always a surprise.
• Just stop trying so hard; God delights in you.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:  

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Jen Ferguson of solideogloriasisterhood.com. On this episode, she talks about how porn created friction between her and her husband and made her doubt herself. Jen also discussed how she tried very hard to manipulate and control everything, but she learned to let go later on. And because she had loosened up, she was able to help fix her husband’s porn addiction because she understood more, because she took a step back and saw the entire picture. Together, Jen and her husband fought against porn addiction and for their marriage.

Get my video series: How To Spice Up The Bedroom!

You’ll Discover:

• How Jen realized that her being too controlling had hurt her and the marriage she was in
• That the only cure for addiction is Jesus
• Her message to women who have husbands addicted to porn
• The problems created by her husband’s porn addiction
• How she realized that all these problems are only temporary

Scripture or Quote:

• Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. Hebrews 10:23

Tweetables:

• If God’s hope is our life jacket, then we can really get through any storm.
• When we’re trying to manipulate and control everything, where does God have the space in our lives and in our marriage?
• Anything that has to do with sex is so precious to God, and Satan is really intent on destroying that – the purity and the intention.
• Porn is not about sex; it’s about fantasy, escape, and control.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday & Thursday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:  

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah rose.

0:19
Hello, hello, this is belah rose, thank you so much for turning us on today. The delight your marriage podcast, we come out every Tuesday. And I want to thank you so much for spending your time with me today. Now I want to share with you an iTunes review that we received. I love reading the reviews, it really encourages me. But this one says, for such a young podcast, the depth of content and beautiful vulnerability shown by belah and the guests is unparalleled. This subject matter is so important and every marriage needs to hear it. I can’t wait for new episodes. This is the very first podcast to hook me well done. So thank you so much for that. That’s just an awesome review. And thank you to everyone that has reviewed before, because it really makes a difference not only to me, it encourages me. But it also makes a difference on iTunes and how we are on the charts. So a review is so so helpful. So thank you so much for doing that for me. All you have to do if you haven’t yet is go to your on your podcast, app search, delight your marriage. And then once it pops up, click on the episode and then click reviews. So thank you so much for that. That’s awesome. Now today, we have a wonderful show for you. I get to interview Jennifer Ferguson and she has just such a beautiful heart, a beautiful spirit, you’ll listen and hear just how much she has gone through. But then also how she’s come through it holding on to Jesus. And I just love the example that she gives for us. But she talks about a really serious subject to pornography and how that addiction in her husband’s life, how that affected her in her marriage. And I wanted to make sure I interviewed Jennifer because I think she’s got a story that can help so many people because so many are struggling with this. I’ve had women reach out to me and tell me this is exactly what’s going on in their marriages. So listen in. I think Jen has got some amazing insights for you

2:30
all right, well, welcome back delight your marriage listener. I’m thrilled and excited to have Jen Ferguson, and she’s actually going to talk a lot about To God be the glory, which is her website, but it’s pronounced something. I’m gonna let her pronounce it. So welcome, Jen. How are you doing today?

2:46
Good. Thank you. Yes. Um, I host a community of women called the soli, Deo Gloria sisterhood. And it’s Latin, for to God alone be the glory. And and basically, it’s a place where we have women’s stories, ranging from abortion all the way to just walking with God and are feeling apart from God, in the hope that a woman would come to this site and with her burden and know that her burden is not hers alone, that someone has journeyed with the same burden before her and have found hope and rescue from Jesus. So it’s just a place where people can come and get a big dose of hope.

3:25
Oh, I love that. Yes, that’s just so good. You know, I was talking to someone. Just yesterday, a good friend of mine, and I was telling her about some difficulties that I’m going through. And I loved the way she just listened. And she just let me whether I was crying or just, you know, having my moment. She just let me and I think that’s a, I think that’s a moment you can realize that someone’s really gone through suffering is when they can hold you in your suffering and say, yep, just let it out. Just let it out. Which is so healing and so good. So that’s beautiful. Now, Jen, would you go ahead and introduce yourself, your family, your day to day life? What it looks like,

4:06
my day to day crazy? No. As we all are, yeah, yeah. Craig and I, Craig, my husband, we’ve been married for 15 years. And we have two kids. And Abby is 11 just started middle school. And Hannah is nine and in fourth grades are 18 months apart. So I feel like we have just kind of traveled as this little unit all together. And now they’re in different schools. And so they’re kind of forming their own identity. And yeah, Craig and I have walked at a good road but a hard road and you know, it really influenced how we parent and how we even tried to shepherd our kids friends and knowing the importance of who Jesus is and why we need his radical transformation in in our lives. So that I basically blog and and disciple women in the hope that we can really impact not only our generation, but I’ve chosen generation two.

5:08
Yeah. That’s beautiful. That’s awesome. It can you tell me a little bit about you and Craig’s personalities,

5:15
we are very different. In fact, we were sitting at the dining room table the other night talking about how different we are, because our kids are very different. And we said to them, you know, what would it be like, if you had two people, parent you that are just like mom, or two parent, people, that parent, you just like that. And they were both like, oh, my gosh, I could either be hyper organized and super, you know, tending toward the rigidly rigid schedule and expectation, or the house would be a total disaster, and everything would be a free for all. So we were just showing them that, you know, God put people together that complement each other, because neither one of those extremes are beneficial at all, um, you know, when you’re only living in that they have their gifts, and they have their downfalls. And so it God to bring harmony into, oh, once to get there. You realize that your way is not the only way. Um, it really does balance out the family. So I’m the type A, he is the relaxed one.

6:26
Mm hmm. Yes, I love the complementary thing that my husband and I are the same way. It’s just it just would be crazy with with both of us being the same. And I totally agree with that. That’s awesome. So I’d mentioned beforehand that this podcast is really all about inspiring wives, to really live wholehearted and in their intimacy and in their marriages. So would you be able to share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years?

6:54
Yes, Hebrews 1023. It says, Let us hold too tightly without wavering to the hope that we affirm that God can be trusted to keep his promises. That really being the type A and just how I was raised, I thought it was my responsibility to fix everything and keep everything together. And and so when I was confronted with my husband, porn addiction, my first response was to fix it. And not only to fix him, but clearly to fix myself, right? Because I thought that he was using porn because of me. And I, because I didn’t I didn’t know at the time that that, that there was not a direct connection. Yeah, but you know, when you find your husband, looking at women on the internet and your firt, you assume that you it’s your fault, because you are, you know, are don’t have, you know, the boob size or, you know, waist size, right? friskiness in bed or whatever. Right. And so I knew that porn was not something that I could live with. And, and so I just thought, because I was the one that didn’t want it. I needed to get it out. And yeah, I did not it on the surface, I think I turned to God in the sense that I prayed word helped me help me through this, or Lord, heal him or whatever. But it’s one thing to pray the prayer and then leave it at the cross. It’s the other thing to pray the prayer and you walk away with the burden that you brought with you. Right, right. And that’s what I did for many years, is carry this burden around and tried to untangle this huge mess of just sin and my sin and his sin, you know, because we both bring it in to the marriage, right? Everybody does. And so when that verse is just meant so much to me, because when if you go back to the the Greek text, that whole concept of can we can hold on? Is it like we’re wearing a life jacket, and we can, you know, if God’s hope is our life jacket, then we can really get through any storm. And yeah, it doesn’t necessarily change the storm. The storm is still there, but he promises to be with us in that and bring us through it.

9:15
Hmm, yeah, that’s powerful. I, that’s definitely a verse that needs to be meditated on. For me for sure. That’s, that’s powerful. Well, I think you started to tell us, but can you share about a difficult struggle in your marriage, and how you’ve kind of come through it?

9:32
I think that, you know, obviously the porn was, it was a huge blow to me personally and in in our marriage. But I think that what it boiled down to is Craig had appointed addiction because he had whole bases in his heart that only Jesus could fill. And, and what made me realize is how much I was clinging to control, to try to make myself feel whole insecure. And No, the thing is, is that we can try to hold if we hold tightly to everything. And we think that it’s all in our hands. You our external situations might seem like they’re okay. But internally, we’re just crumbling because we weren’t made to hold the whole world in our hand. We weren’t making, we weren’t made to orchestrate orchestrate the lives of our husbands or our family, even though that’s what the world kind of tells us that it is our responsibility as a wife and a mom, we are like the CEOs of our household. And, you know, we say the thing kind of jokingly, but when you think about, like, the burden, that that fits on us, and how that that manifests that, that burden manifests in our lives, we just end up cracking into No wonder like, we feel at the end of the day, like broken or, or even pulled in so many different directions, like how can I possibly continue to keep up at this pace? You know, what if, what if I dropped the thing? What’s that going to look like? And I and I feel like the process of going through Craig’s porn addiction, as God just showed me, Lucjan, I really have got this, you do not have to structure your life so that you, you and everybody else is okay. Like, that’s my job. And when you when you hold on to everything so tightly, you choke out the growth, you know, because I can’t see what is kind of like, you know, sometimes we just have to let our kids fail. And that is so like, hard. I mean, especially for me, I don’t want my kids to fail. But what if they go through life, when they’re young, never experiencing failure? Like what when they hit the real world, I want them to know that God is going to be there. But they need to practice that when they’re young and relatively safe. You know what I’m saying? With our husband, if we’re trying to control and manipulate everything, where does God have the influence in their life? And in our marriage?

11:59
Hmm. Yes, I love that when you’re trying to manipulate or control everything. Where does God have the space? Right? That’s powerful. So So can you tell us a little bit more of the story? So when you found out that he was looking at porn, I mean, what was that like for you?

12:18
I, I had the first year we were married, I had suspicions. And I never thought anything, but like, just and I’m pretty intuitive person. So like, when I would come around the corner, and he would immediately close the window on the computer, or, you know, there was like a stain on the chair, we had a crack chair. And then there was this random Pay Per View charge. And so I had all these suspicions. But it wasn’t until we are in a second year of marriage, that I was on a computer looking something up, and he forgot to clear the history. And so I actually saw what he was looking at. And he was home at the time. And I called him in and I was like, What is this? And he immediately was like, I’m so sorry. You know, it’s just a one time thing. It’s not a big deal. I promise I won’t do it again, whatever. And because I didn’t understand, really the concept of addiction. Yeah, because I did not understand that there was a thing called porn addiction. I was like, okay, all right. I mean, I’m hurt. And I’m like, and of course, I went internal with all of my like, oh my gosh, I’m not good enough. I need to pay I mean, whatever. Um, but it wasn’t until Mother’s Day we’re after our both of our kids were born. Hannah was six months old, that he had gone to get a haircut, which was a big deal, because we have very little money. So like to spend anything on on ourselves was just, it was just a big deal. And so I gone to get a haircut. And when I got there, the salon was closed. And so I drove back feeling very disappointed. But I opened the door and Abby was my oldest was watching TV. And it was so loud. And then I but I could hear my other daughter crying in the bedroom, and I thought, oh, maybe Craig was changing your diaper or whatever. And I go in there, and she’s all by herself. So I pick her up. And then I turned and walked down the hall and I saw the study door closed. And that was like I just knew, and I just knew what it was. It blew my mind because I was like, Okay, so now this is not because I caught him a couple of times in between there and now right? Then the first time and then Mother’s Day, and I was just like, This is not only wrecking our marriage, but now it’s interfering with him being able to be the father that I knew that he could be. And so, um, I walked in and I was like, I mean, I just couldn’t even it was it was awful. And yes, yeah, so he obviously shut down the computer and came out and I handed him the baby and I just went and cried in the bathroom floor and I was just like, we’re what and I’m really sending the What the What the hell did you find you I think that this was gonna be a good idea, you know, all of my insecurities. You know, you know, my parents got divorced right after Craig and I got married and just watch their marriage disintegrate, you know, over two decades. And I was like, I wanted more than this. And you did not you failed me. The very raw, honest conversation, and because at that time, like, like I said, I didn’t know that porn was really a thing. I mean, I knew the thing, but it was like a CD, like, not your average person does this, you know, right, that rocked my world. And then to know that this was something he could not control like that he kept going back to no matter what I had done, no matter what rules we had been put in place. Because, you know, when I first when I realized that this was continuing to be a problem, before the Mother’s Day event, at we set up all these rules, right? Because what do you do when you want to control a situation, you create rules, so that there, there will be some sort of, you know, incentive to, to not write like if their rules and you know, I just did not realize that part of human behavior, I guess, are really the rebellious streak in Cray, and really, that by implementing all these rules, like coming from the top down, like from me down, he felt totally painted, you know?

16:21
Anyway, just after laying on my floor and praying, and saying, God, like, I don’t know why you did this to me, and will this this is never gonna get better. God just said, Okay. You know, do you want to do it my way now? And I was like, Oh, yeah. And at that moment, it was just a supernatural moment where I realized how I was trying to play the Savior. And I realized, like, how exhausted I was, and that I did not have a cure for Craig’s point addiction that I would never have a cure for. cardpointe addiction, because the cure for Craig point addiction with Jesus? Yeah. And two things like number one, I cannot be Jesus to Craig, when I’m all in my own head trying to control and manipulate every situation. And if I am not surrendered to Jesus, how can I really reflect that to him, and it because I, because of my own hurt, and my own you no sense of betrayal. I was reflecting my anger and bitterness. And it didn’t come out every day. And it didn’t come out, like necessarily in conversations about porn, but it came out sideways. And when he didn’t do the dishes, or he didn’t do that, or he could have done that better, you know, it was all that bitterness was based in the point of addiction, but I couldn’t, I didn’t know how to talk about it. And it was almost like I was afraid, well, if I, if I bring it up, then he can remember that he’s an addict and want to go back to watching it, you know, I’m crazy. But I don’t know, I just, I feel like God did such a good work in allowing the porn addiction to continue to come to light. And to not allow Craig to continue to live in that not only that sin, but in that place of despair and desperation. You know, he escaped because he didn’t understand that. It was his own issues of self worth and his own fears of rejection and his own inability to deal with real life when it got hard. And so there was obviously a need for Jesus to be able to rescue him out of that hole and show him that there was a better way, because the world of porn is so dark, and there’s so much despair. And it’s a you know, it leads to a disruption of everything good that God created sex to be. Yes, and not just for the marriages, but for the poor women and men trapped in this sex industry, and in the sex trafficking and everything. And I know, when I knew at this time that Craig is a person of integrity, and he didn’t even eat because he was so trapped up in that physical sensation and that escape world. He, he could, he didn’t equate it to realize like, these are real people being devastated by this industry. And once God started pulling him out, like he realized, oh, my gosh, you know, I would never want my wife or daughter trapped in this. How can I support? How can I view something that is so against what God intended creation to be?

19:34
Right? Right. Yeah. A couple of things I want to ask you. One was when you said you hadn’t no idea the concept of porn addiction, and it being an actual addiction. What did you mean by that?

19:48
I think I didn’t understand that. People could be addicted to sex, you know, and I was 19 when I met Craig and and I just didn’t have a whole lot of worldly experience. You know, I felt I guess I led a really sheltered life. In high school and in in, I was only in my second year of college when I met him. And so I just hadn’t been exposed to that world. And, and now I and I feel like now my kids are so much more, it’s so much easier to fall into that because now because the internet is so popular, I mean, I remember going to college my first year and getting an email address, like this was big news. And now, you know, my nine year old has an email address. Um, and so the Internet porn and and an even, you know, I feel like that is really what continued to entrap Craig, because no longer did he have to go to like the video stores, right and, and people see his car there or whatever. Um, anyway, and so I just feel like that just made it so much more accessible. And with any addiction, the more you’re exposed to, you know, it’s like an alcoholic. The more you go to bars, the more you drink, the more interest you get. Right? Yes. And, and I just didn’t realize that that could happen with sex and it but it makes total sense. Because you’re when you’re having sex, and you you know, have that sexual release, your body is releasing hormones like crazy, right? And right, yeah, you get that dopamine and serotonin and all that feel good stuff. And, and just like alcohol and drugs, like you want more and more, right. And if you’re not using it within having sex within the context of your marriage, it’s going to destroy you. Because it’s just like with drugs, like you have to do a little bit more heroin or now you need to add Coke, or now you need whatever. The world of porn has many different levels. They’re all bad, but they just get darker and darker. And and so

21:53
yeah, I think that’s really true. And I think that’s important for a wife who has found out that her husband is doing porn, or has done it in the past that this is more of a chemical release than anything else, right? Yeah. So you also mentioned that there’s not a direct link between actually having sex and being addicted to porn in terms of solving this issue. So when you were saying that it started to feed on your insecurities to make you think like, why am I not good enough? Or is our sex not good enough? Or that kind of thing? And And how has that changed for you in terms of thinking about this? Well, I

22:27
think it was really helpful for me to realize that Craig, porn addiction started even before he met me. And so he he was using this like, so what what I think is really important to understand is that porn is not about sex. Porn is about fantasy, and escape and control. And so now it has an impact on what God created sex to be in your marriage, for sure. But Craig wasn’t, he knew we, I mean, he knew we could have sex like it was available. But if you think about why men start pursuing porn, it might start out as innocent you know, a lot of boys, eight 910 11 See porn, and it’s a curiosity thing. But because of you, anything that has to do with sex is so precious to God, that Satan is really intent on destroying that the purity yes, that goes, you know, the purity and the intention and everything. If we view marriage as the symbol a worldly symbol of Christ to His church, like that is a powerful symbols of when a man and a woman are created to do and be like, and how they’re supposed to reset Christ in the world. And so anything that Satan can do to destroy that he’s going to, and so um, so I think that point has a direct, of course, in my mind, because of how the world views women and treats women, it’s like, okay, clearly, if he’s having to go over there, then you’re not good enough. And so you’re not good enough, because you don’t fit this mold that every guy supposedly likes. Right? And sorry. And so anyway, but Craig was saying, Craig wanted to go into the porn world, because there he wasn’t afraid of being rejected. You know, there, he could do whatever he wanted to do and didn’t have, you know, there were no repercussions. He calls it like acting like a man, but without having to really be one, right? You don’t have to take any ownership of what you do in this fantasy world, right? It’s just kind of like this freedom to be who I can try on different personalities or whatever. But it’s all in this fantasy world. And so even if you have sex all the time in real life, right, right. It’s not fulfilling this desire to escape. And that’s what they’re doing in this porn world is escaping into this life without responsibility without you know, emotion or whatever. Like it’s just this feel good place. And and we haven’t, you know, most women will tell you like, sex is not just a physical experience. And I think for men because of what sex has been taught, or how sex has been taught, it’s supposed to be this feel good physical release, well then, but when you’re married, you have all sorts of emotions and intimacy issues and all that you have to work through to write. And so it’s a gift, but you still kind of got to work at making that gift enjoyable. And whereas porn is a very selfish, I’m just gonna get what I need,

25:35
right? Yeah, no, that’s so good. I love that you said, you know, porn is not about sex. It’s about fantasy escaping control. And the other thing I love that you said, it’s, it’s gives the opposite gives a man an opportunity to act like a man but not have to be one. Which is so key. So if you think about a wife that’s just found out about her husband’s addiction, can you give her some steps or some ideas of what to do next?

26:02
You know, the first thing I would say is to not only talk to God about it, yeah, but find a safe, trusted friend that you can talk about to talk with it too about it with Ray Ray. It’s because you naturally and have the right to feel betrayed, like he has stepped out of the marriage covenant. And yes, like he could say, well, at least I didn’t go you know, actually have an affair, or I didn’t actually talk to another woman or whatever. But he has had sexual relations outside of marriage, he has engaged in that act, even if it was only you know, himself and it computer screen. And so I just want to validate her first and say, Yes, you are right to feel wrong. And yes, this is hurtful. And yes, um, you need to be able to have a safe place to deal with your hurt and anger and bitterness. Yeah. And then, and then I would encourage her to have a conversation and say, hey, hey, I found this, or, Hey, what do you think about this, or, Hey, this is my suspicion. And you know, that the less I think it’s important to communicate, that you feel hurt and angry, but to communicate that in a way that’s productive, because I made so many mistakes and just lashing out. And it’s, and you know, what, if you lash out, you lash out, like, there’s got to be grace, right? Because this is a hard road to go through, and you’re gonna say the wrong things. And he’s gonna say the wrong thing. But the important is to come back to this commitment. So I would say, you know, if there’s not, there’s not abuse, and if there’s a willingness for your husband to try to overcome this addiction with Jesus help, like, stay in it. I mean, this, Craig and I went through this for over a decade. And it is a long process. But there is hope and there is healing, it is baby steps. And, and I went, and I think it’s so important for wives to remember that porn is a hole filler. And so if they can imagine their husband’s heart just filled with holes, and how he’s trying to pour this porn in these holes, and it just run straight through, right, because point is worthless, like it is, it is not anything that is actually going to have stepped in to make a heart hole. And one of the things that really helped me in understanding I had, wives have to be able to ask God to please help them remove themselves from the situation a little bit. Like there’s got to be some separation, even though I know it attacks the core of the marriage of this of the marital bed and sex and everything. But this is his issue. And if we can find out how we try to fill our holes with things that don’t hold them don’t lead to wholeheartedness it is so helpful, like I used food to maybe to make myself feel better and to and to fill this longing and this void in my heart and so I had this really awful relationship with food and it wasn’t until God brought me to this place of like, okay, so this food how’s this food thing working out for you? Because I see you you might enjoy this for a moment. Just like Craig enjoy the porn thing for a moment. But then you feel so guilty and so ashamed and so I just why I’m if your husband knows Jesus, there is going to be like some shame involved in this and even even if they don’t know Jesus, like I don’t I don’t know but it doesn’t it Porn was not we were not created to desire This kind of sex you know, sex or or right fantasy or escape. So right most of us even if we don’t know Jesus have a moral compass of right or wrong and and I love how sex trafficking and abuse has been put more and more in them in the media spotlight, because the more we can understand how devastating this is not only to marriages but to our society, right, you know, right. Um, so I’m kind of getting off the thing I just want, I just want the wife to hold on, because we leave our husbands because of porn. When you I mean, what were a lot of wives are going to be leaving their husbands be rampant. And I just, if you can ask God to cultivate a sense of compassion in your heart, and it took me a long time to get there. Like I wrote in the book. About I was the product post, I wasn’t the product design private products, and I was the older brother being like, why are you

31:02
doing all of this right? I didn’t have a lot of compassion. But but as God started revealing, to me my own issues, I was like, okay, like, this is really not that different than his standards in his separation from God, no matter what it is, we have different, you know, consequences for different types of sin in this world. But at the end of the day with God, like sin is sin, and it is separation. And so we need to choose to move into repentance. And we everybody in all marriages, or even non marriages have to have to deal with the consequences of sin in our lives.

31:37
No, that’s great. I think your point there is really to have a wife to see the long the long vision and that this is a temporary suffering, absolutely suffering. And I love that, you know, your website is an opportunity for wives to share their stories, and to have support in that. But this is also very temporary. Thank you so much, Jen for being so open and vulnerable with your heart and your experience and your lived out wisdom. And I just want to encourage you listener, just in case, there might be a friend that you have that could benefit from this episode. I just want to ask you to share it with them. Because yes, it’s a hard to talk about subject. It’s taboo. Yes. But it is infiltrating every part of our society. Our society is so saturated with lust and pornography. And I just want to wonder if there is some wife in your sphere of influence in your circle who’s dealing with this exact thing? There probably is. So I just asked you to consider sharing it. Okay. Well, God bless you. Thank you so much. And we’ll talk to you on Tuesday once again. Bye bye.

32:59
Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Sara. She is a Delight Your Marriage podcast listener, and she reached out to me to share to everyone, to all you listeners, her marital journey. She has gone through ups and downs; she has felt pain and overcome it as well. Sara talks about how she realized that by showing respect to her husband, she ultimately turned their marriage around and saving it. Listen in as Sara tells us what it means to respect your spouse, and how it can greatly affect your relationship.

Through research and study, I’ve discovered the secrets I wish someone told me years ago! Receive my free gift: “The 4 Stages To His Best Oral Orgasm” by going to delightyourmarriage.com/4stages

Scripture/Quote:

• I can do all this through him who gives me strength. Philippians 4:13

You’ll Discover:

• How Sara and her husband were “separated” even while they were living together
• How she came to realize that being intimate with her husband is her responsibility
• How Bible verses helped her during her times of struggle
• What it means to respect your husband
• How she overcame her guilt over oral sex

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• Love and Respect: The Love She Most Desires, The Respect He Desperately Needs by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs
• Intimacy Issues: Twenty-One Questions Christian Women Ask About Sex by Linda Dillow

Tweetables:

• Sexually fulfilling my husband is my responsibility.
• Be thankful and supportive of the things he does and honor his decisions.
• When I started respecting my husband, he could tell the difference.
• I am not dressing myself up for his pleasure if I’m withholding anything.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday & Thursday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:  

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Laura Doyle of lauradoyle.org, and author of the New York Times bestseller, The Surrendered Wife. Laura is an amazing wife who has gone through a lot of lessons in her married life; lessons which taught her to be strong and steadfast, all done with faith in the Lord. On this episode, she talks about the beginning stages of her marriage and how she realized that she had been doing it wrong. Laura shares to us how important it is to let go and just be more aware of the relationship, to not be afraid to speak up, and to focus on a pleasurable and more passionate intimate marriage. She tells us about how her being controlling drove her husband to become distant, and that once she decided to stop complaining and started working on her flaws, she eventually enjoyed the fruits of a delightful and pleasure-filled marriage.

Through research and study, I’ve discovered the secrets I wish someone told me years ago! Receive my free gift: “The 4 Stages To His Best Oral Orgasm” by going to delightyourmarriage.com/4stages

Scripture/Quote:

• “Courage is not the absence of fear; but rather the judgment that something else is important than fear.” Ambrose Redmoon
• “Any fool can criticize, complain, and condemn—and most fools do. But it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.” Dale Carnegie

You’ll Discover:

• How she, at the beginning of their marriage, was a controlling wife
• How Laura eventually discovered that complaining is not the same as communicating
• How she realized that she was the one putting holes into their intimacy
• How she learned to grow and became more aware of what she needed to do to heal her marriage when she let go and stopped being controlling
• How pleasure is important in every marriage, especially in the bedroom!

Tweetables:

• It was important to be more respectful and enjoy my marriage rather than indulging in my fear.
• There was freedom and healing in admitting that I was treating my husband unwell.
• We’ve got the safety of a long marriage to explore each other’s bodies and be intimate.
• Be clear of what you want in the bedroom; this helps us get a reliable orgasm.
• Sex is an opportunity for pleasure.
• I had to give myself permission to adapt to his point of view about how sexy I was.
• We do better when we make it our priority to have frivolous fun every day.
• The way a child is attracted to a ball or a swing? That’s the kind of pleasure that I look for.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday & Thursday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:  

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:19
Hi there. And welcome. Thank you so much for joining me today. This is belah rose. And I want to just thank you for welcoming me and my guest into your ears today, if you’re out shopping, or on your way home from work, or maybe you’re getting started with dinner, wherever you are, just thank you. And it’s going to be a great show today. Before we get started, though, I have something exciting to tell you about. I have been working very hard on a series of videos that I’m going to be telling you about next week. And it’s a gift for you from me, and I’m really proud of it. So I’m going to be letting you know the details next week, but just let you know, stay tuned. Okay, well today, I have Mrs. Laura Doyle who is a best selling author. She’s a speaker. She’s a coach. She’s such a sweet woman, and you can tell she just has so much genuine, genuine pneus I guess you would say, and I so appreciate that. But let’s go ahead and dive into her interview where we talk a lot about how to have a more pleasure filled life. Okay, we’ll talk on the other side All right, well, welcome back. delight your marriage listener. I am thrilled to have Miss Laura Doyle who is joining us today. Hi, Laura. How are you doing? I’m great. I’m actually I’m Mrs. Laura Doyle. But yes, yes, yes. Yes, indeed, that that would be appropriate. Seeing as we’re talking about your marriage? Yes. Sure. I don’t come off as a single woman. Thank you for that. Yes. Mrs. LAUREL oil. Thank you. Oh, well, good. Well, can you please introduce yourself a little bit about your family and your day to day life? Sure.

2:23
You bet. So I am. I’m so fortunate. I’m a New York Times bestselling author of the book, The surrendered wife, which is published in 16 languages in 27 countries. And I’ve had the privilege of helping over 150,000 women all over the world, really revitalize the intimacy and passion and peace in their marriage. And I’m the CEO of an international relationship coaching company. But the thing I’m most proud of in the whole world is that I’m a very happy wife of over 26 years next month. Oh,

2:59
congratulations. That’s awesome.

3:01
Thank you. Wow.

3:03
So what is your day to day life look like? Well,

3:07
I, I’m running my company, and I work from home, my husband works from home too. So we have a we have a pretty good life here. Where there’s a lot of playfulness in our relationship. So there’s a lot of like little pranking that goes on. And for some reason. It’s it. The Quaker man from the box, he, he shows up, like in my wallet, or, in my case, if I travel. I know I’ve been gotten when I get the quick route, man, I know why that story comes to mind. But if there’s just like a lot of, like, silliness, which I’m so grateful for every day, because it wasn’t always that way. You know, we went through several years of it being really dramatic, intense and instant. And I was on the verge of divorce. So I think every day I’m just grateful for how much ease are is in my relationship, how much vibrancy and that he has a quick story. We were Yes, in breakfast Cafe recently. And he goes, Oh, don’t move. And then he like grabs his phone to take my picture. I’m like, so flattered, right, like, oh, like 25 years, and he’s still acting. Oh my god. He’s like a supermodel and he takes a picture. He hands me his phone and I’m looking through his phone and it’s like, here’s Laura in the Kitchen. Laura in the backyard. Laura working under. Laura. unspeakable. Yeah, there’s just no words to describe. Oh, great. It feels to have that kind of feel so loved every day. Yes.

4:43
Oh my gosh. That’s wonderful. Well, and what a little bit about you and your husband’s personalities. What are they like?

4:49
Well, my husband’s a really easygoing guy and very funny. And that was a big part of what I fell for. He’s also just A lot of humility. Like I remember, on our first date, he was just totally committed to making me laugh, which he felt like he made himself look bad in the process as long as I was laughing and smiling, like I remember he said, because it’s a good thing. Someone invented contact lenses, because he goes, otherwise I’d have to wear glasses. And they would look like two Hubble telescopes welded together. So I’m like, but on the upside, because when you when your visions like mine, he goes, you can just take out your contacts, and you can see amazing things that no one else can see. All right. I made me laugh. And, yes, yeah, I think that was a big part of what I fell for. And then I also really fell for the way he loved me, he was just so devoted. And so there was just a lot of thought on this there he was, definitely that guy gives you his jacket when you’re cold. Or he would just move all the furniture around just so I could see if I liked the sofa underneath the window or not. And then I’d be like, no, no, no, put it back, you know, and he’s just like, really has a servant’s heart.

6:10
Yes, it sounds like and, oh, I’m excited to get into your story more. Um, so before we do, though, could you share a scripture or a verse that or a quote that has meant a lot to you?

6:24
Yeah, my very favorite quote in the world is by Ambrose read. And it’s that courage is not the absence of fear. But the decision that something else is more important. And yeah, became really critical for me to cling to that, as I embarked on the spiritual journey of just trying to save my marriage. And there were so many times when I was called on to choose my faith instead of my fear. And I made a decision that it was more important to be respectful and to choose my marriage over indulging my fear. So that folks became really precious to me.

7:10
Wow, I love that. And it’s so funny. I was just writing about confidence, and how that’s exactly it. It’s focusing on the purpose instead of instead of focusing on the fear, so I just love that. Cool. Well, can you share them a little bit about your, your, the story, the season of struggle that was in your marriage?

7:31
Absolutely. So we’ve been married, I don’t know, six years, let’s say four, or five, six, and seven, eight, probably, we’re pretty, we’re pretty bad. And I really believe that I was, I was more spiritual, I was smarter, I just was not the person working really hard on our relationship. He wasn’t doing anything, I would sit him down on the couch and tell him everything that he needed to do differently. And conversely, I call it the State of the Union address, it’s never went very well. I tried to leave that to the President to do those. But, and the other thing that was going on that, in retrospect, I really just had no idea how much harm this was doing. But I was trying to give him helpful suggestions. I call it helpful in wife language, which has been language, right. So I would say I just had ideas about how you kids like, eat more healthy and things that you could do at work, or you know, how we can tidy around the house and how you dress better. And I didn’t realize I was really shooting holes in the bucket of our intimacy in connection by trying to be so helpful. And this kind of going back to that quote that I love. I was being the armchair quarterback of his life. You know, it was happening in my life was going by and I wasn’t attending to it, I was missing my own life. And the minute I stopped being the armchair quarterback of his life, this whole thing emerged where I was called to write bestselling books, and in front of live audiences of hundreds of people, I’ve never done that, or I got to go on national TV and international TV, and it was all pretty terrifying. And I realized that controlling him, it felt less scary. And that’s kind of why I that was part of why I did it. But anyway, things were going really badly. And I just, I just knew that if he would change, then I could finally be happy because there’s not right. Right. Right. So I made him go to marriage counseling, and I just was waiting dutifully for her to fix him. And of course, that didn’t help and we went for years and it just really it didn’t fix anything. I did learn there that I was controlling, like, I have an issue with trying to control and I was a As soon as I kind of had that awakening, that was an issue for me. I was like, Okay, what do I do? And counter was like, yeah, just stop being so controlling, you know, just just. And I was like, huh, I just go and I played her kind of got a glimpse of her marriage. And she was pretty controlling too. So I was like, Oh, no wonder she couldn’t tell me what to do. She had nice diplomas on the wall, but she didn’t have, you know, the transformation that I was seeking. Wow. So. So I really just felt like we had to get divorced. I just had married the wrong guy. I couldn’t figure it out. It was really, it’s very lonely. Like I remember there was. I remember him being more interested in watching TV than he was in my company, for sure. And even in making love to me like that. John felt really lonely. I was really felt rejected and abandoned.

10:58
Well, and so when you said shooting holes in your intimacy, what is it? What do you mean by that?

11:04
Oh, I just, I just think it’s like, it’s like the bucket of my our intimacy together. I was I was tearing it apart. I was the one that was, you know, it’s kind of funny. It’s ironic, I felt so superior, I had this big superiority complex, like I was when they had to do everything, because I would do it right. And he wouldn’t do it. And by right, I mean, my way, right, you know, the right way. And I had no concept that I was the one that was making everything so hard and stressful. And it wasn’t until I got a roll of metaphorical duct tape, let’s say, ever my mouth to correct or criticize or even instruct, even if I thought, Oh, I’m better at this than he is. I just stopped doing all that. And that was when the man who had wooed me really came back back. And I just remember, there was one day Bella where I, I came through the door, I came home, and I remember his face lit up, like he was like, and that had been gone for a long time. And I was like, wow, that’s that’s where I want to live. That’s the kind of relationship I want to have.

12:21
Yes. Oh, it’s just love that, wow. Well, so the wife that’s finding herself in a marriage where she’s doesn’t recognize the person anymore, and all she can see is all of his flaws. You know, this metaphorical duct tape? Was that really the key like that? Was it

12:39
really a big one? Wow. Well, it would I did was I decided it was more important to be respectful than it was to just say, whatever came to mind, like I had kind of confused. Honesty and criticism. And I thought I was just being honest, when I tell them like his shirt didn’t match, you know, his jacket. Right? Right. I’m like, I’m just saying the hard truth things that need to be said. On here. And yeah, I know, I recognize the difference between honesty and criticism is honesty is about me. It’s not about him. Criticism is criticism and complaining. You know, there’s that quote from Dale Carnegie, any, any fool can complain, and most do. And that was really kind of my situation. I just had a really big complaining habit and criticism habit. And what was funny about it, too, is I always complained about something. And I would think that I had communicated what I wanted out of it. Like, I’d say, this place is a mess. And I thought he would hear that as like, would you help me clean up the kitchen? I can’t even hear me when I’m complaining. He, if I can let him know what I’m wanting. If I say, Gosh, I would love it. If the kitchen was clean. Then he’s like, Oh, okay. You know, I love the dishwasher and load it back up. And if I complain, he just totally can’t hear me. So it was it was really frustrating for me because I felt that I was telling him everything that I wanted. He was ignoring. It didn’t care about me or my happiness. And unfortunately, I just Well, it’s really sad. Like, I’ll tell you. We went to Hawaii, right, even before we were married, actually took me on this romantic trip to Hawaii. And I remember getting up and being like, oh boy, we’re gonna go to the beach today. And my first thing out of my mouth was like, hey, what do you want to do today? And he goes, Why don’t you be fun to go see a volcano? Sounds like volcano. Okay. And I but I wanted to be close. I want I need to be connected. So I thought, Well, I’m not gonna say that I wanted to go to the beach because I, I could cause a conflict. And then there’s like a winner and a loser. And I still want that, like, it just felt like there’s gonna be just sensing. So I just didn’t say anything. And we, we got in the rental car and just started driving around and you, you can’t actually see a volcano at first, you just are driving on this road with just a bunch of rocks next to you. It’s a hot day. And I think the rental car didn’t have air conditioning or something. So we’re just driving around the heat. And I started to get it like I started feeling I’m like, Ah, you know, she didn’t even ask me what I wanted to do. We’ve hit the beach right now. And this is a big waste of time. And he kind of catches on something is wrong. And he chose me. And so this is something in the matter. And I’m like, this would be fun, because this was so fun to do. And it was at the curb. No. Okay, no, all right, I totally lost. I mean, the way I’m saying it is probably even as angry and rude and obnoxious as I sounded that day. This was all red, and my hair was sticking up. And I just looked like some, you know, like, some weird monster in the car with him. Around I took my fiancee to Hawaii, like where did I? Where was my mistake. And I just feel sad for that previous version of myself. I just had no concept of being able to just express her desires purely. And he was like, Oh, if I’d known you want to go to the beach, he was like, reading away your bikini. And I was like, yes, you know. And after that, because he’s doing, like all about trying to make me happy. Yeah, it was, it was sad. It was terrifying. Because I knew, I remember having this horrible emotional hangover, like, you do. And you still like me, I’m really sorry, you know, and I just knew if I continue to act like that, I was gonna push them away. And, and I really had no idea how to not act like that. No, it’s been such a gift. And Fisher release it through learning the skills that I needed to have a good marriage. I have that I angry woman and she’s gone. I don’t know where she lives. Now. I was feeling my fear. And her. And it was, it’s, it’s really tragic when I think back on, you know, went away, that I just didn’t really know. I didn’t have the skills to advocate for myself.

17:24
Hmm, yeah, I love that I love I feel the same way I in my previous marriage, I was in a similar kind of just, yeah, the criticism was so such a pattern, such a culture in our relationship. And I love I love that you said Any fool can complain? And most do. Yeah, it’s good. It’s so true. But actually needing the skills are now having developed the skills. And so that was kind of the journey that that brought you to the books that you’ve written.

17:57
Yeah, yeah, there’s that saying, If you can’t be Catherine air, air tickets, he can’t be a good example, you’ll just have to be a horrible warning. And so like all these horrible things that I did, and it was, it was really fun. I just remember we self published my book, The surrendered wife, originally, because I said to my husband, I think there might be like 2000 women that can identify with me, and they have the same issue, you know, they’ll want to read this book, and you know, 150,000 copies later and, or whatever it is. I mean, it’s more than that. It’s way more than that now, but that was pulled out of the gate 20 years ago. So and women would write and say, Where was the tape recorder, it seems like you had a tape recorder in my kitchen or my dining room. So I wasn’t the only one. It was really comforting and kind of exciting to see that. Someday, I felt like it was this horrible secret that I had to keep right? Because we would, we would maybe like have a big fight on the way to the party, be late to the party, because we could pull over and fight. And then we’d be like, hey, everything’s great. Yeah, the life that we’re living at, and it was just, I felt so much shame about the conversations that were going on and, and I felt a loss of dignity about my tone of voice and the things that were coming out of my mouth. And you and I didn’t want to be around me.

19:25
Yeah, that’s, that’s awesome, in terms of just how you had to live in order to be an example in order to teach others.

19:33
Yeah, yeah, that it was very freeing, and was a huge Grossberg for me to just admit, things I say to my husband, I said to him, like he’d say, oh, I want to get a Christmas present for Pat and I’d be like, really? Did he get you a present last year? Yeah, so controlling and so overbearing? Yeah, proud of it, but It was, there was freedom and healing and just admitting that I was treating my

20:05
husband. Yes. In admitting that you’re treating? Yep. That’s yeah, that’s so true. And so I wanted to ask you, we do talk a lot about intimacy on the podcast, I wanted to ask you when you were saying, you know, that he would rather watch TV than even make love? I mean, what was that like for you?

20:25
Yeah, it was, it was really, it was heartbreaking. I think that like, that was when we were deep in marriage counseling. And it was totally not working. And yeah, I was just really feeling heartbroken. It was so painful. And I think that’s kind of why I felt like divorce was the only option. Like I couldn’t see my way. And I really, it really, the only way I could reason it out in my head, was there something wrong with him? I kept going with it. And it was, I was like, shocked and horrified and relieved, all at the same time to learn no harm the keeper relationship. I’ve got all the power here. And when I made the changes, you know, didn’t when I discovered the intimacy skills and started implementing them, yes. Sparks are harder than ever, you know, he was making better buys me again. And, and, and I felt more attractive. I was more attractive. And I was I stopped acting like his mother. I think that was kind of a big dynamic as I was like, his mom and he was a little boy and aren’t attracted to their sons and Sons aren’t, you know, men are? There’s so like, oh, it was kind of a intimacy killer right there. But you know, now, I just feel that’s like a such an area of strength for us. I mean, He’s memorized a complicated series of instructions on how to make the orgasm every time. It’s just like, it’s, we’ve mastered the art of the quickie. That’s actually awesome. So there’s Yeah, and I think there’s nothing like having the safety of a long marriage to really explore each other’s bodies and be tuned in to that. So you both really do feel successful. Because you get you get a lot of practice. And, yes, a lot of satisfaction on many levels. It’s a it’s such an opportunity to connect physically, but emotionally, spiritually as well.

22:32
Yes, yes. I love that you said it, you know, you’ve got the safety of a long marriage to, to explore and to really understand each other’s intimacy. And so that’s really great. Yeah, I love that I love I love what you shared. Now, would you be willing to give any insights into how to make a cookie? Awesome.

22:52
Sure. I went, yay, on time. Okay. I think I’m big on the importance of, well, first of all, frequency, right. So I mean, I get in my positions relationship coach for years, for 16 years. Now, I get to hear the insights of what goes on in a lot of marriages. And, and sometimes, you know, it’s like, Well, we haven’t had sex since the baby and how old is the baby baby’s three, you know, like, so first of all, it’s, I think, one big tip for me is just the idea of making myself available to my husband, at least once a week is kind of my rule of thumb. But I, for me, now, it didn’t start out this way. But for me now, like I want to just be available whenever he’s initiating. So that’s, that’s my policy, he knows that. So he’s got you know, he’s, you know, he’s not gonna get rejected in Jeff. So that’s a, that’s a pretty cool thing. Because I know, I don’t always start out in the mood. But that doesn’t mean I won’t end up there. So that’s a big part of it was really just being willing to take that opportunity when it came along. I see it as my opportunity to feel beautiful, to feel sexy, to feel desired and to feel pleasure. And that has been. So that’s, that’s one part it really it does. Like, the more frequently you do it, the better you get at it. But the other thing that I’m really big on is my own pleasure during sex like that is paramount. And we have the only organ on the human body that’s designed solely for us to feel pleasure, the clitoris so I take that as a metaphor that our pleasure is pretty important, not just in sex, but I take it as a metaphor for the rest of our lives as well. But in the in the bedroom, I mean, expressing my desires back to that again, right like what I want, like I want to back up to get me in the mood or I wanted to take a bath or I want some music or Whatever it is, that’s gonna. And that’s not that’s not necessarily for the quickies. But but being clear on what I want my desires are the care of Laura in the bedroom has really helped us get to where there’s a reliable, there’s reliable orgasms all around. And that so I can get there fast and back. Yeah, really fun.

25:24
No, that’s awesome. I love that I love that. Thinking about sex in for females to think about it as this is opportunity for pleasure. That’s right. That’s you know,

25:34
and and it may be your thinking. And a lot of times we are it, it almost never seems to be that we as women are like, Oh, he’s coming onto us going oh, yeah, now would be great. We’re always like, the Jewish kids like, right, right. Right. We’re never anything true. But I love the you know, I might be afraid there’s other things going on or whatever. And if I can just put that aside. Yeah, it really doesn’t take that long. When I was joking about, he’s like, Yeah, I’ll say to my wife, just give me five minutes. And I’m like that that might be part of the problem right there. But, yeah, it’s an opportunity to idle on a miss now. i Oh, I heard this story on the news that I loved about this woman who decided she made a decision, she’s going to have sex with her husband every day for a year to be interviewed on the news. After she’d done that. And she’s like, wow, I really had to get over my own impression of when I was sexy. And when I wasn’t, she’s like, I’d be thinking, Well, I haven’t showered. There’s no way and but he I look at him. And he’s like, yeah, baby. So she says I just had to give myself permission to adopt his point of view about how sexy I was. Yeah, it was, through that.

26:59
give myself permission to adopt his point of view.

27:03
Would you argue with that?

27:05
That’s true. Yep. Yep, I love it. I love it. And because I think it also, even in every other area of life, it comes into the bedroom, too. But if we’re not feeling confident in our body, we bring that kind of into the bedroom. And we feel not as good but giving our giving ourselves permission to adopt his point of view. I love

27:24
that. Yeah. Yeah. And then and it really just come back a little bit to I call it replenishing your spirit with self care. And I don’t mean, eight hours of sleep, or 30 minutes cardio or five fruits, vegetables, and what I mean is that you make yourself happy three times a day. And by doing that, that was just free EPA, because naturally, it takes a little bit of energy to have a great relationship, like anything else that’s worthwhile in life. And yeah, are depleted, you give yourself very little chance, having a great relationship. So I think, especially for women going back to the metaphor of us having the only organ designed for pleasure. We do better when we make it our priority. Frivolous fun every day.

28:10
Hmm. That’s awesome. We do better when we make it our priority to have frivolous fun every day.

28:17
Yeah. So good. For me, I’m super practical, like when people say stop, stop being controlling, I’m like, I don’t know. So for like making my pleasure, a priority. I, I implemented the structure of I would do three things a day, just to make me feel good. And for no other purpose not to reduce greenhouse gas emissions are recycling to avoid osteoporosis or anything else is just wow, the way a child is attracted to a ball or a swing, that kind of pleasure that I look for.

28:52
That’s so good. And then this translates into the bedroom right to be because, yeah, go ahead.

28:58
I think it can come since we’re usually in the same mode or the same mood as our husbands when they approach it. If you’ve got the energy reserves, if you’re still smiling because you you got out your paints and your easel or you’ve spent an hour connecting with a friend over a cup of coffee or, you know, you assemble things right that can really fill you up and make all the difference like you read your favorite blog you stuck away read your favorite blog for a while or play games on your phone or I like to play volleyball so it’s a big one for me, but if you’re if he’s if he’s approaching you, when you’re happy and filled up, you’re gonna It’s just usually have so much more resourcefulness within yourself. And like, yeah, what the heck, why not? Let’s get naked. Let’s do it.

29:48
And that’s true. That’s so true. I love that because you’re in the zone already of feeling enjoyable and having Yeah, yeah, having. I can’t let that

29:59
fun in life. Fear. We all are inherently unnatural. Our husbands fell in love with it. And that’s what makes it so attractive to them is when we are in that mode. So The Goddess pendant light is saying, Are you kidding? I can’t. I can’t make love with you right now. There’s dishes in the sink, right? Like, she’s like, alright, we’ll do this later.

30:20
Yeah, yeah. Ooh, that’s really good stuff. Laura, this is awesome. Wow, was not awesome. I just love Laura and all of her insights. And you can tell she just has an amazing marriage that you just kind of want to emulate years after, isn’t it true? Well, anyway, definitely come back and listen to the next half of this interview that we’ll be posting on Thursday. So come back for that. Okay. God bless you. Thank you so much for joining me today. And I hope that you have a wonderful, pleasure filled today today. Okay. God bless you. Bye.

31:02
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Gaye Christmus of calmhealthysexy.com. This episode is such a refreshing and eye-opening conversation between Gaye and I about the differences in perception of sex and sexual responses among men and women. She helps us understand the process, which she had to go through herself, of learning that culture’s dictation of sex is from a male’s perspective. She also is firm in her belief that if we only let God lead us and if we are willing to follow, He will bring us to where we ought to be. Listen in and join us as Gaye also gives out helpful advice on how to work difficult things out in your marriage. We can get through it; it’s part of God’s plan!

Through research and study, I’ve discovered the secrets I wish someone told me years ago! Receive my free gift: “The 4 Stages To His Best Oral Orgasm” by going to delightyourmarriage.com/4stages

Scripture/Quote:

• “Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.” Philippians 4:6
• “He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.” Isaiah 40:11

You’ll Discover:

• How both she and her husband are introverts, and how this actually is beneficial as opposed to the “opposites attract” notion
• How she struggled with sexual intimacy in the early years of marriage
• How to trust God completely and walk the path he has laid out for you
• How culture views sex and its effects on most marriages
• How saying what you feel is important in working things out

Tweetables:

• The whole culture’s view of sex is based on male sexuality.
• You know what culture says about sex, but you don’t know what is really going on or what would make it better for your marriage.
• During difficult times, you just have to have the conversation—just to get through it!
• Sexting can help and be effective!

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday & Thursday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Trascript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah rose.

0:18
Hey, there, this is belah rose, thank you so much for joining me at the delight your marriage podcast. And today, we have a great talk for you. This is Miss Gay Christmas, and she is going to be talking about her experience of 30 plus years, and what she learned that took a process to understand the differences between male and female sexual response. And I’m so grateful that she shares openly about how it took her quite a while to figure out that they are just different and what it is that she needs to feel fulfilled and ready to have wonderful intimacy with her husband. So I think it’s going to be a great episode for any of you who are looking to not only understand the woman’s response, but also to understand your own whether you’re a husband or wife listening. So let’s go ahead and dive in

1:26
Okay, well, welcome back to like your marriage listener. I want to thank you so much for joining me today. And I’m excited to have gay Christmas from calm healthy sexy.com with me, hi, gay. How are you doing?

1:39
I fell out. Good. How are you? Doing? Well,

1:42
doing? Well. I’m excited to have a great conversation today. And I’d love for you to go ahead and introduce yourself, your family, and a little bit about your day to day life if you would.

1:53
Okay. Well, I’ve been married to my husband, Dan, for almost 30 years. I can hardly even say that. But in November, yep. We will have been married for 30 years. And we have two sons, two young adult sons. One has graduated from college and is working and kind of out on his own. And the other one is a college student and he lives at home. He goes to the university in our city, but so he lives at home, but he’s in and out a lot. So of semi empty nesters, we don’t quite have an empty nest yet. But we’re kind of moving in that direction. I work my husband, I both work full time outside the home. We both actually work at the same university. And I’m, I have a background in a health field. And I work as a technical writer and editor in a health field. So we’re busy, but we don’t have the busyness that a lot of women have of having small children at home. But we’re still busy. You know, we work full time. And I’m trying to keep my blog going and kind Yeah, build it up. So yeah, that’s it. We sort of we do live in a city, but we live kind of out in the country. So we have a big yard a big garden. So we’re outside a lot on the weekends. Trying to keep that up. We have some chickens. Oh, that’s so that’s, that’s kind of what we’re doing on a day to day basis.

3:26
That’s awesome. Well, my husband and I live in New York City, and we hope and Yeah, well, we spent two days ago was our rest day where we just spend the day kind of relaxing together. That’s our family’s tradition that we try to do every week. But we were just daydreaming about how nice it would be to have a yard and chickens. And so

3:49
it really is nice. I have to say it’s really nice. It would probably be hard for us to live in the city. You know, after having kind of a lot of space around us.

4:00
Yes, yes. One day, one day, I might be your next door neighbor guy and then escape the city life and get down to some some rural, it’d be awesome. But I’m a little Would you share a little bit about you and your husband’s personalities? What does that look like?

4:18
Yeah, so we are both introverts. We’re both we kind of go against the idea that opposites attract. Because we have very similar personalities. Were both fairly quiet as I said, introverted, we’d like peace and quiet. What Yeah, right. Yeah, boys that was kind of hard to come by. But we like you know, some personal space. We like some time. We’re very low drama. We didn’t have any patience for drama. So we really have very similar personalities, which I think is good. In terms of getting along, and it may, the place where that it may not be good is in terms of kind of generating some excitement in your marriage. Sometimes, you know, opposite personalities, the, you know, that creates some excitement. And so yeah, we have to be, I guess maybe more intentional about creating some excitement because we are both so low key and it would be easy for us to just kind of float and you know, let things let things go. So, yeah, we also have to be intentional about, like, connecting with other people. Because it would be easy for us to just stay home, work in the garden, work on the blog, mow the grass, and not, you know, we’re not like big partiers or big hosts. So we have to really be intentional about connecting with people and having people over and that kind of thing, because it doesn’t come naturally to either one of us.

6:05
I love that. The talking about kind of knowing yourself and knowing that okay, this is something that’s helpful for our marriage. We just have to be intentional about having that. Right. Yeah. And I think it starts by knowing who you are, and knowing who your husband is, and knowing each of your strengths, which seems really good.

6:22
And I, you know, and I think it takes time to sort of figure that out. I’m pretty sure I didn’t realize that at all, when we were first married. I think that’s sort of you have those realizations over time if you’re just if you’re paying attention and kind of wanting to understand,

6:39
hmm, yeah, yeah, no, that sounds really good. Well, this is all about inspiring and empowering wives to live wholeheartedly in their marriage. And so I would love to hear maybe a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years, or even recently,

6:57
okay, I was thinking about to Philippians, four, six is always meaningful to me do about not being anxious about anything? Yeah, bringing everything to God in prayer, because I do tend a little bit toward being an anxious person, or kind of a warrior, I sort of come from a family of warriors. I came by it honestly. So that yeah, has always been a very good verse for me, because I’ve never really, you know, overcome my tendency to worry, I’ve never been able to just completely give it overthought and let it go. So I’m always having to come back to that, you know, kind of, you know, remembering that he says, not to be anxious, and to give everything over to him. And you know, that there’s really nothing to worry about, that he has it all under control, but I have to learn that lesson over and over again, because I just seem to remember it. And then something that has meant a lot to me kind of over the past couple of years, is just verses that talk about walking with Christ, or God walking with us or leading us, I just have had kind of a visual in my mind recently, which is kind of interesting, because I’m really not a visual person at all, but just have like, walking with Jesus and sort of him leading on a path. I was thinking, when I was thinking about this, this morning, I was thinking about how he says, He’s the shepherd, you know, and we hear his voice and he leaves us. And I have been thinking about that a lot, recently, and that I’d really just want to, you know, walk with Him even, you know, take his hand and sort of follow. And I also picture, you know, when you’re on the path with him, I kind of imagined that there are paths going in all different directions, you know, and it’s very easy for me to get off the path, you know, that he’s leading me on and kind of going a different direction. And so I just keep thinking about, you know, walking with Him, him taking me by the hand, just verses that say, you know, he will lead us if we are willing to follow, very inclined to go in my own direction very much. So. I need to keep sort of bringing myself back to that and to his, you know, willingness to lead me and knowing so much more what’s better for my life than what I know or understand about it?

9:42
Yeah, yeah. I just love that because I think a lot of times, we get caught up in the busyness or the worries or the the, the opportunities even all over the place. And then so often I do myself also just forget that okay, I’m being led. I’m falling I’m not, this isn’t my show and kind of a deal up, you know, and I don’t mean to dry on podcasts. I mean, in life, this is not my life were crucified with Christ. Right live with him. So that’s great. Yeah. I love that too. Well, I wanted to ask you about the difficult season or struggle in your marriage that, that, you know, we can listen to and learn from and, and hear your heart through. So if you could, would you share?

10:30
Um, okay. I, I would, I will say, which goes back to our personalities, we’ve had a pretty low drama marriage. I mean, I’m not sure we’ve had more than, you know, five really big blowup fights in our entire 30 years. But that doesn’t mean we haven’t gone through any difficulties. The thing that I was thinking about is that we have had some struggles in the area of sex and intimacy. Yeah, earlier in our marriage. And there was a really long time, when I felt like, my husband was selfish in that area. It was so perplexing to me, because he is not a selfish person. I mean, he’s not selfish at all. But really, and that was just an area of it just seemed like we could not get on the same page. And I couldn’t figure it out for a long time. You know, and you feel like, okay, we’re in the sexual revolution, like, probably 4.0 version. Now, it’s the century, you know, our culture is just bombarded with sex. It’s everywhere. And yeah, you think, well, I should know everything there is to know, but you don’t, you know, you don’t I mean, you know, what the culture says about sex, but it’s very possible to be married even to be married for a number of years and not know, kind of what’s going on? Or what would make things better in your marriage related to that. And so, you know, over time, what I realized is that I was lacking some knowledge, he was probably lacking some knowledge. And we were really lacking in good communication on that. For example, I mean, this is almost embarrassing to say, but I was pretty old before, it really struck me how different women’s sexual response often is from men sexual response. I mean, I want to say, this is like a sad admission, I was like, in my 40s, before, you know, it’s kind of one of those things, then no, on a surface level, but I really know it for my own life. And I think that’s one of the things that we were constantly, you know, butting up against. So, you know, I mean, I would, you know, work all day, or when the kids were younger, be home with the kids all day. And, you know, go go, go, you’re busy. You know, it’s hard, especially when your kids are young, and it gets to be 10 o’clock at night, and you fall into bed. And then I would think, why am I not interested in having sex? There must be some wrong with me. You know, my husband, he’s worked hard all day, too. But he could fall into bed at 10 o’clock, and be interested in sex. And so I just thinking, What is wrong with me? Or alternately? You know, what is wrong with him that he can’t see how I’m struggling? Yeah, so that was really a barrier and a point of friction for a number of years. And what I finally realized was, my, I am completely normal for a woman, and he is completely normal for a man. And I don’t mean to stereotype because I know some men and women are different, but I think in general, most women, you know, cannot work all day collapse into bed and be interested in sex. Right? Probably a lot of men can write. Right, yeah. You know, I really had to figure that out. And I had to start saying to him, Okay, here’s why I think this isn’t working for me. You know, I think I’ve got to have some time. I have to have a break from sort of the day to day grind, the daily grind, you know, I need for us to have some interaction during the day that will sort of get this going. Yeah, you know, one of the things that we discovered is, you know, texting is great for that. I mean, sexting was just for kids but you know sexting couples to as long as you Using a business phone or something, I guess, but so we just had to, I mean, I just really had to learn about that I had to sort of read and get my mind around that and say, you know, there is nothing wrong with me. And there’s nothing wrong with my husband, he’s not selfish, he just doesn’t understand. And so we just had to, you know, really talk that through and have some arguments about it, and have some times of me being pretty mad at him.

15:32
And sort of change the things that they were doing so that they were conducive to both of us, you know, being interested in sex and intimacy. Because, you know, I wanted that for my marriage, I wanted it for myself, I’m not one of those people who believe that sex is only for the husband, I absolutely don’t believe that. I think that women, you know, are sexual beings too. But sometimes, it’s more work, I think, to make it figure out how to make it work for the wife. And so that yeah, something that we’ve, that was difficult for us, we really worked through a lot of it, it’s much better for us. Now, I’m not saying we don’t ever fall back into a bad pattern, but and I think I learned to communicate better to say, okay, you know, here’s what I’m feeling, or here’s what I’m thinking, or here’s what I think would work for me, you know, and he had to learn to be able to hear that and to be able to say what he was thinking or feeling to.

16:39
And I love that you mentioned, you know, that question, what’s wrong with me? I feel like that’s such a huge thing that women are constantly feeling in sexual intimacy. Why do you think that is?

16:50
I think it’s because the whole cultural image of sexuality is pretty much based on male sexuality. Yeah, you know, I mean, even in, say, books that are intended for women, you know, romance novels, it’s, I mean, the sex and intimacy. And those books, I think, are very much a male model. You know, it’s like, yeah, falls into bed, for the first time ever, and has these fantastic mutual orgasms. Well, how often does that happen? You know, right. I mean, I don’t really think that happens very often, you know, in in movies, and then just, you know, I just, I just think the sort of the cultural saturation is kind of male oriented sexuality. And so you feel like, if you don’t follow that model, then there must be something wrong with you. You know, you’re not just ready to fall into bed at any moment and have the world’s greatest orgasm. There must be something wrong with you. And I just, I just discovered, but that is not. That’s not true at all.

18:04
Yeah. And so when you were, this was especially poignant when you had young kids, is that the kind of the difficult period?

18:14
Yes. You know, I mean, this was kind of a struggle for a long period. Yeah. It probably became most noticeable when our kids were young. And I have boys, and I know you have boys too. And boys are exhausting. I mean, they’re great. They’re, they’re exhausting when they’re little. And, you know, when I was when my children were young, I worked either freelance or just part, you know, part time, and was home with them a lot, or, you know, most of the time. And that’s very, I mean, that’s a hard job. Yes. And so yes, I think it became most noticeable when our when our children were young. And, you know, we probably it took us quite a few years, I’ll be honest, to really, yeah, figure it out and can work through it.

19:09
Yeah, well, I really appreciate that honesty, because sometimes, we think of the stages or processes that we go through as if it should be as fast as in a movie, you know, something that takes years and years and a movie is done in two hours. So we think that one conversation is gonna fix it all. It was a it was a process for you. So what were some things that you had to kind of put in place to make sure that you were that you were able to enjoy sex in the afternoon or in the evening?

19:38
Well, as you said, I mean, you can’t just have one conversation, and I don’t you know, I don’t like to have difficult conversations. You know, I would one conversation one time and be done with it. All right. But I found that you just can’t do that. You have to keep having the conversation, even if it’s difficult So you can work through it because as you say, it’s not a movie, you’re not going to talk about it one time. And never everything is all, you know, peaches and cream, it just doesn’t work that way. Right? So, you know, excuse me, we had to put in place things like, you know, my husband just saying, Okay, I’m, I’m in charge, now you go chill out, you know, you go do whatever you want to do, or, you know, I’ll, I’m going to take over the kids, I’m going to clean up the kitchen, I’m going to do whatever, so so that I could sort of have a break between just the busyness of the day, and then spending time together in the evening. Hmm, yeah, last, you know, he also became more conscious of, you know, just being in touch with me in the day, kind of, you know, just in a, you know, funny, flirty way, just kind of getting things going in that direction. And, you know, and I had to be willing to say, to, okay, here is what I need, you know, what, like, I just need this time, I need to take a break, I need to, you know, I just need to cut things off right now and go sit down and get my mind together. Yeah. So, you know, it, it was both of us. I mean, he wants he understood, he was willing to do things to make this work. And, you know, I had to be willing to say what I need, you know, women saw a lot of times don’t like to say what they need. So I yeah, I like to say, you know, I, here’s what I here’s what I need in order, you know, for us to, you know, really make things work out in this area, both say tonight, and kind of overall in the big picture.

21:52
Yeah. Yeah, thank you for that. I think it helps women to get a chance to see like, what another marriage looks like? How can how can husbands be proactive and help their wives? I just think that, you know, you’re sharing about how your husband was proactive? is big for husbands to think about, okay, how can they help their wives get more in the zone? And, and, and even just love on her a little bit, you know, practically speaking, you know, to give her some rest from the kids and let her just kind of be her own person for a while is huge,

22:28
right? It really, it really is. And I think Huskins husbands can be proactive, you know, kind of by educating themselves to like I used to send, send my husband, you know, articles or links to blog posts, and, you know, then he finally subscribed to the, the generous Husband Blog. Oh, you know, because he, he really talks about those kinds of things. So I think it’s, it’s all so an action that husbands can take is to just get informed because, you know, I think a lot of people are probably like me, you feel like, you know, everything there is to know about sex and in fact, right, you might you might not.

23:06
Right, right. Well, and I love the point that you made earlier with the whole culture, his view of sex is based on male sexuality, right? Which I think is so true. I mean, you look at all the marketing and all the advertisements, you’ve got scantily clad ladies, you know, Lachlan, because it because obviously that that attracts views that attracts people’s attention. So, but it’s not indicative of reality, which is like your point here, which is really great. Okay, well, I hope that you have been inspired to start really figuring out yourself or figuring out your wife more. And if you’re a wife listening, say what you need and be open about what’s going on for you. And if you’re a husband, ask the right questions, trying to figure out where your wife is coming from. And I hope that this has inspired you to live in wholehearted intimacy in your marriage. God bless you. I love you and we’ll talk soon.

24:13
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Debi Walter of theromanticvineyard.com. She and her husband have been helping other married couples get through their marital struggles. On this episode, she talks about something that we all are at risk of doing. It is dishing out criticism to our spouses. Debi shares her painful experience of having to go through an entire year of a rocky relationship because of a comment that she made toward her husband; a comment which caused him pain and which affected their relationship greatly. She tells us on this interview how to own up to your mistakes and how to get through these challenges, with the help of God and his Word.

Scripture/Quote:

• In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 1 Peter 1:6
• But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.” James 4:6
• “To love God does not mean to meet His needs, but rather to delight in Him and to be captivated by His glorious power and grace, and to value Him above all other things on earth. All the rest of the commandments are the kinds of things that we will do from our hearts, if our hearts are truly delighted with and resting in the glory of God’s grace.” John Piper

You’ll Discover:

• How God never lets go of us, even when we let go of Him.
• How one critical comment changed the entire relationship for Debi and her husband.
• How they eventually worked out their differences and slowly began to rebuild their marriage
• How to deliver criticisms gently

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• The Treasury of David: Spurgeon’s Classic Work on the Psalms by Charles H. Spurgeon

Tweetables:

• God uses all our mistakes for our benefit and his glory.
• Your thoughts determine your actions and your affections.
• God never lets go. Even when we do, he still holds on to us.
• Comparison is never good even when it’s in your own home.
• It’s not up to us to sanctify our marriage, it’s up to God.
• You’ve gotta be loving in your honesty too.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah. Rose.

0:17
Hi there, and welcome. This is belah rose. And I want to thank you for joining me today for the delight your marriage podcast, the show where I interview wives and intimacy experts on what it takes to have a fulfilling and wonderful marriage. Now, today, we’ve got a wonderful wife, who has been married for 30 plus years and has got quite a testimony throughout. But you can tell she loves the Lord, and she loves her husband, and she really cares about sharing her heart with you and what mighty difficulty she had. Just from one critical word that she said to her husband and how it affected the rest of that year and even longer. So listen in, and I’ll talk to you on the other side.

1:20
All right, well, welcome back to let your marriage listener I am thrilled to have Miss Debbie Walters from the romantic vineyard.com Hi, Debbie. Thanks for being here. Hi, belah.

1:30
Thanks for having me.

1:32
My pleasure. My pleasure. Well, would you be willing to introduce yourself and your family and a little bit of your day to day life,

1:40
I would love to. Tom and I have been married for 36 and a half years. And we we tell people 33 of those were happy. The other three have a story and a testimony, which is what we thank God for. But I have three grown children, two of which decided to move out of state so they don’t live nearby. And they happen to be the ones that have all of our grandchildren, which has happened in the last four years, we’ve got seven grandchildren, and the eighth one is due in October. So they’ve been busy. They’ve been married nine and 10 years, and eight children between the two of them. So they’ve been having a good time. Yes. So now the hard works began for them. And we live far away. So I call myself the faraway Nana, which is a title I never wanted to have. But God has helped me see that there’s reason for the distance. And sometimes it helps to have a long range view. And you can see things better from a distance and you can up close. So I’m starting to see the good of that, even though it’s hard. But Skype is wonderful, and all the long distance so and it’s also allowed Tom and I’d have a lot more alone time, which has been very healthy for us. So and we’re loving the empty nest. Oh, great. So

2:57
I’m looking forward to that myself.

2:59
Yes. It’s wonderful. work now. It’ll be good then.

3:05
Huh? That’s good. I want you to dive into more of that. Yes. Sounds awesome. Well, can you tell us a little bit about you and your husband’s personalities?

3:15
Yes. I’m the one that has the typical five, however many 25,000 words a day. And my husband is slow to speak quick to listen and used to drive me crazy. But now I see the benefit of him being so slow to speak because he does listen to me. And sometimes he hears more than he should. And that he’s very, very patient very kind, very wise. Now that after 36 years, I see that when we first married, I was just going through some of our posts from a while ago and one that sticks out to me was I wrote a letter to my newlywed self of what I would wish I could tell myself now then that I know now. And so you can find that one point on our blog if you’re interested. But it was very insightful to go back and just think, okay, I remember who I was then. And so grateful for who God has made me today. And you know, we all wish we could go back and have a redo a reset. But, you know, God uses all the mistakes that we make for his good and for our benefit. And even though our pride doesn’t necessarily like it, it’s always beneficial because God doesn’t waste anything. He uses everything. He uses the delays, he uses our mistakes, he uses everything for his glory. And if we see that, then we’ll embrace everything that we face. The Good, the Bad, all of it. So anyway, my head I very sorry.

4:43
No, no, I was just gonna say I was just gonna pull out from that what you said specifically, God uses all of our mistakes, for our benefit and for His glory. And it’s just powerful to hear after 36 years to have that kind of perspective is beautiful.

4:58
Yes, yes, it didn’t come in Izzy, I will tell you, it behind that sentence are a lot of tears and a lot of heartache. But through it all God never lets go even when we let go, he never lets go. And that’s grace. That’s just the picture of grace that is undeserved. Even when we’re at our worst he still reaches and holds on to us. So but anyway, my husband, he’s He is amazing. I’m the talker. So most people on the blog know more about me than about him. They learn about him through me talking about him. So, but I am who I am today because of him. And because of God. So yeah, the two of them has made me a much better me.

5:44
Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah, that’s funny that you say that you’re more of the talker. That’s my household too. I’m more of the talker than my husband. He’d he prefer to sit in a corner quietly. Yes. Observe? Yes, yes.

5:56
I’ve told my husband I journal. I’m an avid journal er. So I said, you realize how many words I’ve spared you from having to listen to? Because I’ve got on my 62nd volume of journal. Oh, my gosh. Oh, is that? Wow, that’s incredible. Wow. Yeah.

6:13
What do you find is helpful about journaling, just as a side?

6:17
Well, because I’m a writer, I think with my hands. So a lot of if there was a season God took me through, or he told me didn’t want me to write in my journal. And it was really difficult, because I process by writing. And so it was, I felt like I had been sidelined. And but it was a good exercise for me, because then I learned that I need to just kind of wait before I write, I’m so quick to write it out. So it was a good exercise. But I’m glad it only happened once. But the writing just helps me to think through my struggle. I don’t allow my journal to be a dumping station that I’ve heard a lot of women do they say, Well, I don’t want anybody read my journal. Well, I’ve always written my journal with other people in mind, thinking that my kids are going to read this one day, my grandkids are going to read this one day, I want them to see how I’m processing in a way that glorifies God, when I’m not saying that it’s all perfect. But hopefully they see the struggle and they see the honest tug of war that’s going on in my own heart to get God’s perspective. And so I’ve told my kids, I said, you read anything in my journal, I want you to know if there’s anything I forgot to go back and, and settle if I was praying for you fervently or whatever, and I never come back and say, God did this. There’s nothing left unresolved in my heart, I don’t want you to read it and think that, you know, I’m still struggling with something. Maybe I was struggling at one point, because my son is a lot like me. And he said, I’m going to read every journal when you’re gone. I said, Well, that’s why I wrote them.

7:50
So So that’s so precious. Yeah, though. This is really what this interview is all about. This podcast is all about encouraging, and helping wives to see the long picture and process through their own hearts and their own lives. So it’s really to inspire and help wives with that. So would you be willing to share a scripture or a quote, that has meant a lot to you over the years? Or even recently?

8:12
Oh, yes, my I call it my life verse, it’s in first Peter may pull it up here, so I don’t miss it at all. First, Peter one, it starts with first six. In this, you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold, that parishes though it is tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. And this is the part I love, Though you have not seen him, you love him, that you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls. So that’s my heart cry, I know that every difficulty I go through is not for nothing, that I can actually rejoice in it. Because I know that God has a greater purpose in it. And I have to remind myself that on a regular basis, because when the emotions come in like a flood, you know, you can hardly rein that in. And then you can’t reason when you’re in an emotional state. So that’s why scriptures like that help help tether me to the truth. So that you know, even though I may be pulled, I’m not going to be drifting. So the word of God does that

9:32
like nothing else. Yeah, it’s so true. It’s so true. And can you share what your kind of habit is about scripture reading? Because I think that would encourage others to hear just

9:44
Yeah, you do that actually, the Lord gave me a real I don’t know when it was probably 20 years ago, I had a really good friend. She’s an older woman in the faith that I highly respect that God has used over and over in my life, to challenge me to the Next step, and one time I was at her cabin up in North Carolina for a retreat, and she found out that I had never read through the Bible. And she came about came off of her chair because she couldn’t believe it. I mean, my husband’s a leader in the church, and she can you mean to tell me you’ve never read through God’s word? And it’s like, well, no, but I know a lot of it. And so anyway, she took it on herself for the next year to have me over once a week, and we read through the one year Bible, so she didn’t just tell me what I needed to do it. But she came alongside me and helped me and make made sure I did it. So after that, one year, of being with her, my life was never the same. I, every morning, when I’d wake up, I just had the sense that Jesus was in the living room waiting for me just to come in, because he wanted to share with me and read, you know, and have me read his word that he gave to us. So it’s precious. So that got me through the first few years where it was awkward. And it he just, he just stirred in my heart, a desire to be with him in the same way I haven’t needed to be as my husband. And you know, just a relationship. It’s not just a duty, it’s a delight, like John Piper says, No, that’s, that started me on the journey of reading through God’s word, and I don’t read it, you know, we’re all the way through every year, it just depends on what God has me do. In fact, this year, he had me, he said, this year, I don’t want you to have a plan. And I went, Oh, that’s kind of weird. And so it was really a challenge. Because I’m, I’m, uh, I’m used to, I start doing something one way. And then I tend to keep doing that until forever. And that’s just my bent. And I’m seeing that that can be a good thing. And that can also not be such a good thing, because then you get used to the routine. And we all know ruts aren’t a good place to be. So I think God did that just to kind of stretch me a little bit and make me more dependent. So I’m just kind of taken it a month at a time what he wants me to read. And, but it’s been really good. I’ve spent a lot of time in Psalms that Spurgeon has a bunch of sermons based on this called the treasuries of David. And it’s precious. I mean, he just goes into depth when you think, you know, a psalm, then you read what Spurgeon has to say, and it’s, it takes you deeper. And that’s kind of where I feel like I am right now the Lord just saying, I want to take you deeper. And I don’t know exactly what that means. And when he first said it, it was a little bit disturbing. It’s like, okay, huh. But so far, it’s been really good.

12:33
Wow, that’s really exciting. Yeah, I love that. Well, I hope that you’ll keep in with this, this theme of hearing from God and when not when you share about your story, because really, a lot of us learn through I mean, really, the fire gets purified in the in the trials and the difficulties, right, so. So I’d love to hear your your the struggle that you wanted to share

12:58
with us, okay, well, this was your 18. So I’ve got a little bit of perspective now, as we just about doubled that time. But this was, I think all women deal with this from one time to another, where you look at your husband, and you see that they have lack. And somehow you usually don’t feel comfortable telling them, but you harbor it in your heart. And then you start viewing them based on what your perspective is. And then slowly, if you’re not paying attention, it can start to cause you to look at them with almost disdain. And that’s a powerful word, I don’t think I would have used that word when I first realized this, this what God was doing. But now when I look back, I see that’s really what I was doing. So what happened is one night, I made the observation. This was after I started reading God’s word more and doing that. So then obviously, I started comparing what I was doing with what my husband was doing. And I saw a big difference. And I thought, well, I’m doing more than he is. And so which led me down the path of comparing which comparison is never good, even when it’s within your own home. I mean, most women struggle with comparing with other women. But in this case, I was comparing my walk with God compared to my husband’s walk with God. And so, being the loving wife that I am, I asked, I told my husband one night that I, I thought and I honestly thought that this was a helpful thing to say. I said, I think that you love me more than you love God. And, and he said, really? And I said, Yeah, because you’d never, you’ll never miss a date night with me. You look forward to him, but I see you skipping time alone with him. And although my observation was probably had some vein of truth in it, the way in the heart that it was shared was not good. And so my husband became He is a humble man. He heard what I said, respected what I said, even though he shouldn’t have. And he took it to heart. And he said, Well, I don’t think I can love God anymore. So I must need to love you less. He didn’t tell me he was thinking that that’s just where his thought process went, which led us on a roller coaster for the next year, where he pulled away from me. And he’s never done that before ever. And so I had never experienced having a husband look at you with a cold shoulder. And that’s, that’s what happened. And we would go to counseling, we’d call our pastors crying, you know, please help us we don’t know what to do. And my husband even looked at me and said, I just don’t, I don’t feel like I love you anymore. And that crushed me. And I, I’m just crying. I don’t know what to do. And I apologize. I said, I shouldn’t have said what I said, and But God still hadn’t got in my heart. He was still after me. So there was one night we were laying in bed, and I was just so tired of the struggle. I mean, at the same time, we’re leading a small group at our church, I’m homeschooling my three kids, and life is going and my husband had owns his own business life is going on as normal. No one else knows. But our hearts are far apart. And, and we both felt the coldness. And because we’ve had such a strong marriage, our whole marriage, even through the ups and downs, this was the first time where we both kind of felt alone in our struggle, because we couldn’t come together to work on it. Because he was having to go get he, I mean, he would just walk out of the house at night and go over to our pastor’s house to talk like 11. And I wouldn’t know when he’s gonna come back. I mean, I was glad he was talking to the pastor. But still, it didn’t make me feel any better that we couldn’t settle this. So one night, I was laying in bed, and as clear as I’ve ever heard or thought, I heard God speak to my heart. I heard him say, Who made you the standard? Hmm. And I was crushed is anybody that’s whenever you feel the conviction of God, come down on you. I immediately is like God shined a light in my heart and showed me that I was judging. And the Bible says in the same way you judge others, you will be judged. And I feel like I was experiencing that. The fruit of my judgment, you know, my critical judgment is a critical judgment of my husband. And so when he said that, to me, it cut to my heart, and I all of a sudden saw how wrong I was to have ever said that to my husband. So I repented to God repenting with tears to my husband. It affects me even to this day, I can’t talk about it without tearing up. But realize that, and then my husband when I told him that, he just rolled over and went to sleep.

17:58
And I just laid there as like, Oh, my goodness, I don’t know what to do. I have I’ve, I’ve crushed him. And I can’t fix this. And on for, we went on for a little while. Quite a while still after that. Struggling just kind of maintaining, but all the time in such pain. Yeah, we went away on a business trip. And of course, we’re functioning outwardly like, everything’s normal. But still, you know, I still don’t know how to fix it. We’re just kind of waiting on my husband. I knew you would never leave me. You know, that was not an issue. But I didn’t want to live like this. And that I didn’t know how to fix it. Like I said, so we were in the hotel, they were having like the closing event and they always have a band and dancing or whatever. So you’re out on the dance floor. And we don’t fast dance. But we like to. He will slow dance. So we went up. Yeah, whenever there’s slow dance song, we’ll go out there. Even in the midst of all this, we go out we’re on the dance floor. And this song came on which you all all are familiar with it by Bette Midler Wind Beneath My Wings. And I just um, you know, we’re not hardly talking to each other. So he’s, we’re dating but I’m listening to the words. And the words of the song are Did you ever know that you’re my hero. You’re everything I wish I could be. I can fly higher than Eagle because you’re the wind beneath my wings and mile that song was playing the Lord was just saying, you don’t realize you are who you are today because of the way your husband loves you and cares for you. And and I just was a mess on the dance floor. Right? So when I told Tom that we got back to our hotel room, I told him that and I cried again and repented I realized what the issue that God was after was I didn’t respect Tom. And God wouldn’t stop even when he showed me that I wasn’t the standard that was The pride of my heart. But when, when he on the dance floor that night when he showed me how much our marriage relationship goes together, side by side, and how I am a better person because of him, and vice versa, because God uses each, both of us to fill in the gaps of our weaknesses so that we can use stronger in places where we wouldn’t be. Yeah, the fact that I may have a more consistent quiet time at the time, it doesn’t mean that Tom’s relationship with God is any less. It’s just different. And it’s not my place to ever. I mean, certainly there’s times to ask your spouse a good question, how how’s your soul How you doing? But the way that I was asking it was critical and not helpful. And so after that, it was like, the Lord just shone a light on my disrespect. And I was able to repent a time of that. And immediately, his motions came back. Oh, wow. And our marriage has never been the same since that that year, but like I say, God, he doesn’t waste anything. And he’s not going to stop until he gets the full measure of what it is he’s after. And, you know, we have to moderate with him even when we’re in place where we don’t like it, and we’d much rather run here. He’s still not gonna let up, you know, there’s a song out now thinks by Chris Tomlin, you never let go through the fire in your own, oh, no, You never let go. You never, you never let go of me. And that’s the truth and so grateful. Because it’s not us. It’s not up to us to sanctify ourselves or our marriage. It’s his job. And it’s just a matter of if we’re willing to listen, and respond and do what he has. So

21:48
yeah, that’s powerful. I think that this is going to be convicting a lot of us here listening, because it’s just so powerful to be looking at our husbands in a respectful way. But then also, but I think the the thing that you really are bringing out here, which is so beautiful, is how you responded to it. So you made the critical judgment. But then you were willing to let the Holy Spirit convict you about this criticism, right? How would you advise a wife who just feels like there’s something on her heart that she needs to tell her husband about? That? Sounds like a criticism, how should she do it?

22:27
Well, I’ve been taught very well, we’re in a church. That’s amazing. As far as teaching truth, and Tom and I have also gone through a lot of biblical counseling to get to where I’m not just giving an idea, but it’s, it’s based on the Bible. Yeah, it’s the the the counseling that we went through, was it Nink? I don’t know. It’s not called Nate now, but it’s national nouthetic counseling. I don’t remember. But anyway, you probably familiar with that. If a woman was asking for how do you go about doing that? The best way is to posture your heart, in a humble way. Because the Scripture that really came home home for me, was James four, six, God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble. So not only if we say it in the wrong way, not only is our husband not gonna respond, but God’s opposing us. And you know, not but in a loving way, you know, we’re his, so he’s, you know, when some people hear that they, they think, you know, condemnation. That’s not what I’m saying, it’s not condemnation, because there’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ. But there is conviction, and God will oppose us, which means that he’s not going to give us our way, because He loves us too much. Just like with our kids, we’re going to oppose our children, when they’re doing something we know is not good for them. It doesn’t mean that we don’t love them. And they don’t need to be condemned about it, they just need to obey. And that’s the way God treats us. So we need to posture ourselves in a in a way of realizing that my sin is greater than my husband sin, because I know more of my own heart than I know of his heart. So if we realize that, and that God’s grace covers my sin, then I can look at him and say, you know, I’ve made I’ve made an observation, is it okay for me to share it with you, and because sometimes it may not be the right time, you know, or husbands, you know, they have a lot on their shoulders, so they could not be in the place to talk about So timing is everything. And if it may be that you plan a time, I want to talk to you, I’ve done that with Tom, before I need to talk to you about something, can we plan some time. And so then we’ll we’ll plan time to where we can either go out or, you know, after dinner whenever, you know, when the kids were asleep, everything that we could not be interrupted, and then just say, Could it be you know, I’ve made these observation could it be this rather than saying you never you always you know, we don’t use absolutes. We that’s never profitable to say you never do this or you you know, because that’s that’s just Not true. And it’s not it’s not helpful. It kind of puts up their defenses. Right? Yes. So you don’t want to do that you want to do everything that you can you appeal to them, you you say, I’ve noticed this, I’ve noticed this. And it’s always helpful to have examples of what you’re talking about, don’t come with generalizations in, you know, in, don’t come with your finger pointed. You know, when we had a pastor a long time ago used to say, when you’re pointing one finger at somebody, there’s three pointing back at you. So realizing that, you know, we don’t have, we don’t have the right to come accusing. Yeah, but we do have the responsibility to be honest with our husbands and share what we’re what we see, that’s part being a helper to our husbands. And I know many wives that we’ve encountered through the years are afraid of their husbands. And they say, Oh, I could never tell him that. And then if that’s the case, then there’s more work in the marriage that needs to be done that doesn’t have anything to do with this issue. You know, that that goes to something even more foundational, because as their helper, it is coming alongside them and helping them see things from a different perspective. And so it is our responsibility, but it’s not easy.

26:22
Yeah. Well, I also like, like how your story really shows how important words are that just just one, one phrase one sentence then made an entire year of serious difficulty. And I definitely I was married previously. And I know that my critical, it was like a pattern of criticism, both on both ends. And that is just, I mean, it’s detrimental. It’s detrimental to marriages. So

26:54
go ahead. It’s like a cancer. Yeah, is what that does. And even if if, you know, some women may think it and never say it, but it doesn’t matter, as you think in your heart. So you know, that’s how you will be. So your thoughts determine actions and and also affections. So we really do have to take captive our thoughts. We can’t, we can’t feel free. Well, I’m just or just to say, Well, I’m just being honest, you know, to our husbands when we are approaching him well, I’m just being honest and telling you what I’m thinking. Well, no, yeah, you can’t do that you’ve got to be loving is in your honesty, too. And so, I mean, we’ve shared that with counseling couples, many, many times, because we’ve heard that was just being honest telling you what I’m thinking.

27:42
Right. Right. Right. And then it’s horrible thing was disturbed. Talk about in a way that was, yeah, there you go. fire was lit up. Yeah, that’s awesome. I love that you said your thoughts determine your actions, but also your affections, which is really good. So that was the first half of my interview with Debbie. And she has got a lot more to share, including her tip on intimacy that I think you are not going to want to miss. So definitely listen in on Thursday for the rest of this interview. Okay. God bless you. Let’s just say a prayer. Father, if there’s anyone listening, I just pray that if they have had the issue of criticism and critical judgments in their marriage, Lord, I just ask that you would give them the grace to be humble and to apologize when they need to apologize. Father, this breaks marriages from their core. We don’t even realize but criticism this judgmental attitude can break a marriage. And so I just ask, Lord, that You would give us the grace to be humble. And any wife or husband out there that needs to repent and needs to apologize, God would you help them? And would you help them make it right? In Jesus name, amen. Okay, I love you and I’m praying for you in your marriage. God bless you. We’ll talk soon.

29:01
Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Dr. Corey Allen of Simple Marriage and the Sexy Marriage Radio podcast. On this episode, we discuss a refreshing male perspective into the intricacies of sex in marriage. What exactly do men think when they are engaging in intimacy? How is sex considered a responsibility? Join us as Dr. Corey Allen digs deep into the reasons behind why your spouse might be rejecting you. He also gives quite an eye-opening stance on sex and how what we do in everyday life relates to how we act in the bedroom, and vice versa. You surely wouldn’t want to miss this episode!

Through research and study, I’ve discovered the secrets I wish someone told me years ago! Receive my free gift: “The 4 Stages To His Best Oral Orgasm” by going to delightyourmarriage.com/4stages

You’ll Discover:

• How he and his wife struggled with intimacy during the first five years of their marriage because of his skewed priorities when it came to sex
• Why we should never depend on our spouses to make up for our weaknesses
• Why we should get rid of the practice of blaming
• How to effectively end an argument that has become personal
• How life, in general, relates to how you go through sex

Books & Resources Mentioned:

The Family Systems Theory by Dr. Murray Bowen

SMR Ep 191: Sexy Every Day by Shannon Etheridge and Dr. Corey Allen

Tweetables:

• We have sex to the level of anxiety we can tolerate.
• I am responsible for me, period. I am not a victim.
• We should be wanting each other rather than needing each other.
• The person rejecting sex has the better view of what’s going on because the sex they are having is not worth wanting. Sometimes it is too one-sided.
• If you are risk-averse in life, you are going to be risk-averse in bed.
• I gotta bring myself to the occasion, not just fantasize my way through orgasm.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday & Thursday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah rose.

0:16
Hey there, and welcome back. This is belah rose, and you are listening to the delight your marriage podcast, where we talk about sex and intimacy and marriage and messy and embarrassing and fun and exciting and laugh. We’ve talked about all of that. And today is no exception. I have got Dr. Corey Allen, who’s just so generous to share all of his insight, and he’s just got so many great tips to give us. Specifically, he talks about how we do sex the way we do life, which might be shocking to hear, but it’s really true. And I think Dr. Allen makes a great case for it. So let’s go ahead and dive in. Alright, well, welcome back. delight your marriage listeners. I’m so thrilled to have today Dr. Corey Allen, thank you so much for being on the show with me, Dr. Corey.

1:20
Absolutely.

1:23
Well, I’m really excited. How are you doing today? So

1:25
good. Let’s, let’s roll this, this will be fun. Perfect. Okay. Well,

1:29
first off, would you be willing to introduce yourself and your family and your day to day life?

1:34
Sure. But my name is Dr. Corey Allen, if you want to go formal is Dr. Corey Allen. I’m a marriage and family therapist that have a private practice here. And I live in the suburbs of Dallas, Texas. I also have a online presence via simple marriage dotnet, which is a site that’s been around for about eight years that started as a hobby and a blog is turned into what I’m pretty proud of a really good resource for marriages. Yeah, and, and help and relationships. And because my main goal, and belief is that marriage, marriage can be one of the best relationships there is. And so I want I want him to survive and thrive. And yeah, so simple marriage produces resources, and ideas and thoughts and books and just help for various stages of relationships. And then three years ago, I started a podcast called sexy marriage radio. And that comes out every Wednesday, where all we do is talk about married sex. It’s me and then a female co host right now at Shannon Etheridge. And yes, that’s been a lot of fun to just speak into the void that is the sex world, when it comes when it comes to looking at it through a healthy lens. Yes. So that’s been a whole lot of fun to just see the response and the impact that we can make just from sitting on a microphone. So it’s pretty cool. Yeah.

2:55
Yeah. And I love that. I love your podcast, and I’ve listened to quite a few of your episodes. You guys have a great dynamic. And yeah, you you tackle a lot of the heart issues. And when we tackle some of those here as well on the delay marriage, so So I hope that you’ll be bringing that expertise to the intimacy in marriage, and then go into it that way, though. Could could you go ahead and share a little bit about you and your wife’s personalities?

3:20
Well, yeah. Wow, that’s a I’ve been married to my wife, Pam, for 22 years. We have two kids, a 10 year old and an eight year old that are just fantastic. on a on a quick detour note, we just came off of a four week vacation together, where we traveled to the western part of the United States and just spent four weeks together, just seeing everything we could see. And now Now we’re trying to figure out how we can do that more just because it was such a great, a great time as a family and as a couple. So. But now my wife, she’s a CPA. So she’s the devil in the details. Woman, and I’m the dreamer. Constantly changing my mind, what if we do this? Let’s try that, you know, pie in the sky kind of guy. Yeah. So it’s, it’s a good balance. And it’s a frustrating ending balance at the same time. It’s so it’s one where, you know, through the, through the journey of our relationship, we’ve we’ve had to grow and challenge ourselves and each other just because of our personalities. And so she’s probably one of the best things that’s ever come to my life. And because she makes me better.

4:33
Hmm, that’s awesome. I love to hear that. She makes me better. Yeah. I hear that. I mean, I feel the same way with my husband. So that’s, that’s great to hear. How old did you say your kids were?

4:44
I have a 10 year old daughter and an eight year old son.

4:47
Yeah. Okay, cool. So yeah, just just coming up on the teenage years pretty soon. Yes. So

4:53
that’s part of why we’re trying to figure out how to travel more as maybe we can bypass teenage years by just being on the road. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah, I’m sure it will work, but it’s a goal.

5:05
Yeah, right. Yep. Yep. Well, cool. Well, um, could you share it? And now this is all about empowering and inspiring wives to live in wholehearted intimacy in their marriage. And so I’d love to have you’re kind of a male perspective on the whole topic. And to start things off, is there a particular scripture or a quote that has meant a lot to you over the years?

5:28
Well, I don’t know. To me, the, the way I encapsulates all of just what the Bible talks about with with marriage, because there’s, because that’s the one thing that’s a big struggle is the Bible doesn’t tell you how you’re supposed to do marriage, specifically, it gives you guidelines and ideas. But it’s, it’s still kind of global, with a lot of gray, a lot of gray areas that allows for a lot of interpretation. And that’s what we fight about, you know, if you think about it. So the way I think about it is that I believe marriage is designed just to help us grow up. That’s the whole point of it. It’s that God cares more about our character, and our wisdom and our maturity than he does about our pleasure. And so, I think what better way to really be challenged to become a better person than get into a marriage. Because, because that person is going to challenge you just because they live with you. Yeah, and, and so it goes right against the whole notion of, you know, the Jerry Maguire, You complete me. Yeah, it just ruins a lots of things in my book. So I just kind of sum up that I think, I think marriage is designed to help us grow up to help us to grow in maturity and wisdom, and to be able to be better people. And, you know, if you want to put a Christian lens on that, that makes the kingdom better. You know, that makes us that makes God’s world better in the sense of, we’re better, better equipped to then handle and love others, when we can handle and love ourselves. So yeah, so it. That’s not an actual scripture. That I know, but but I think it’s the main idea is captured.

7:13
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I want to ask you a couple questions about that is, so you said the phrase you complete me, right, right. Why is that ruining things? He said?

7:23
Well, there’s, there’s this, the Hollywood isation. And the Hallmark world of marriage is that you my weaknesses will be overcome by my spouse’s strengths. And while there’s merit to that, in certain circumstances, if I expect my wife to make up for my weaknesses, I’m destined in my relationship for trouble. Because that’s not her responsibility. I mean, the other way to think about it is, you know, when you when you when you say your vows, we have those for better for worse, in sickness and in health notice, typical, that’s one of those typical phrases that are in there. And a lot of times, the unspoken assumption of that is there will be as little as worse as possible, because I’m working on that, you know, I’ll handle my worse, because I’m dating and you know, I want to put on my best foot forward, and I want you to still like me, so I’ll put my marketing department to work so that you’ll see the best parts of me. And that’s what you’re doing at the same time. And so we don’t really know who we are, and I don’t really know who you are. And so as this goes on into marriage, what we do is we often flip that and say, well, but you said you would take me for better for worse. So that means you have to accept my worse and no, it doesn’t it’s so it just sets up this whole dynamic of, it’s easier to blame my partner for my failures and shortcomings. Because they’re not doing something or, or whatever. Yeah, rather than recognizing that’s my failings and shortcomings. So that’s my responsibility. And that’s what sets up the huge, it’s easier to beat up my partner than it is myself dynamic.

9:08
And tell me a little bit more about the dynamics easier to be to my partner than myself? Well, it’s,

9:13
I mean, think about human nature is we place blame on things we get when something doesn’t go our way. And I think we fight that if you if you have little kids, you see it from early on that well, but he did it or I you know, you did it or whatever, maybe go all the way back to Adam and Eve, you know, sin, you know, God’s like, Hey, what happened and well, I we ate the apple or the fruit. It wasn’t actually an apple maybe, but you know, yeah. And what, who told you to do that? Well, she did it the woman you put me with and then he looks at it, but she’s well, the serpent trip tricked me. You know, and so it’s like, we constantly place blame. Yeah, and when you get into a marriage, you know, there’s some times where all right circumstances kind of dictate Yeah, that I was it fault, but I still contribute to it. And if I don’t own that side of it, then then what we’ve what we create is a marriage, that’s according to the least common denominator. And so it’s the less developed person controls the marriage. And that’s because if you’re with somebody that’s really volatile, and, or emotionally reactive, or fragile, yeah, you have to come, you have to compensate for them all the time. And so you never really do grow. And they hold you hostage. And so it’s learning. Wait, I’m not responsible, completely for you. You’re responsible for you. That’s the idea that you are, you’re, you know, you were hopefully a fully functioning individual, before we before we met. And when you will, if you can stay fully functioning individual once we’ve met and stay together, then we both get the benefit of our growth. And we don’t have to need each other as much we can turn into the whole world of wanting each other different. Oh, and that’s the whole different paradigm.

11:08
Yeah, wanting each other rather than needing each other. I like that a lot. Yeah. Well, and you mentioned, you know, if one person let’s say, there’s a couple that’s listening, or a wife or a husband that’s listening, and they’re thinking, Well, I’ve been doing all the growing and I have been, you know, overcompensating for my partner. What would you suggest that that that one person does?

11:30
Be honest? Yeah, yeah, that’s typically the best thing is just acknowledging the fact that, you know, there’s some things that I cannot do for you. So, here you go. This is this is the best example of how this played out in my marriage, because when I was when I was in grad school, is when I was introduced to this whole theory. And in basically, I’m going to go psychobabble for a second Bella. So with you go, right, it. Basically it’s a family systems theory by Marie Bowen. Okay, Dr. David snarks came along later, and adapted it to couples. And so what is the whole psychobabble term is called differentiation, I change it to just growing up, that’s just it makes more sense to me. And it’s more simple. And that’s I try to keep things as simple as as possible just because that way, but it’s it’s the idea of that I can be in charge of my choices. I’m not a victim to. So it’s it’s learning that I’m responsible for me period. That’s that’s the whole that’s the whole theory that if I’m responsible for it, then it’s on me, I can’t I can’t blame anybody else. So as I’m introduced to this, it just clicks, it just makes sense to me. And I’m learning everything I can about reading all the stuff I can about it. And I’m teaching it to my wife as as as I’m like, hey, what do you think of this? And I’m just, you know, because I’m starting to live it. So it’s putting some pressure on her, which God loves a woman, you know, she had to go through a little roller coaster, when she’s like, What in the world are you doing? You know, so. But we had a time that when my when our firstborn was born, we kind of created this agreement that whenever, because we were both working full time, I had a little I have a more flexible schedule, just because I’m you know, self employed. So I can set set currently my calendar the way I want, which allows me to be around with the kids a whole lot more. And, and my wife has a at the time and a really steady, high stressful job. And so we had this agreement that whenever the day was coming to an end, as far as school or daycare, whatever we had the kids that from then when from the time we got home until the kids went to bed, we wouldn’t have the TV on. So that way we could spend time as a family be outside, eat together. As a family, we just had some priorities of the way this is the way we want to live a life as a family. And but I had negotiated basically, that on the weekend. If there’s a sporting event on then I want to watch it, you know, I want to turn it on. And she’s like, that’s fine, because she’s a she’s a sports fan, too. So I got lucky.

14:09
I sure did.

14:11
So but what at what we found is, you know, with DIRECTV on the weekend, there’s sports on all the time, you know, I can’t find a sporting event, even if it’s cricket, you know, or something, I can find something. So TV would be on all day long. And it wasn’t like we would just sit there and watch it but it would just beyond which that just is that added, you know, a draw of doing nothing rather than doing something together. Yeah. So that what she What happened is over the course of several months, about every six to eight weeks, she would get in this funk of we watch too much TV. You know, we watch too much TV on the weekends and I’m a smart guy and I could I wish I was hearing her what she’s really saying is you watch too much TV I need you so that I don’t have to face the fact that I don’t want to get sucked into this. And it makes it easier for me if you would let take the lead in this. I mean, that’s not what she’s saying at all. But that’s what she’s saying. It’s yeah, yeah. Right. So she would just you watch too much TV, but I’m a smart guy. And also know, that’s just a mood and a reaction from her, she’ll get past it, and I don’t need to change anything. And, and so she would, you know, it’d be a day or two, if she kind of be in a funk, that she’d be fine. And then we’d go another six to eight weeks, and everything would be cool, for me, at least, and then would happen again. And so I, you know, this went on for about a year, just kind of riding that storm. And both of us trying to manipulate the other while acting like we’re not manipulating the other. And yeah, until finally one day, it was a Sunday afternoon during the Masters, she came in. And I said, they’re watching the the end of end of the round. And she came in and she says, I’m tired of how much time I’m spending watching TV. On the weekends, I’m going to go start doing things differently. I’m going to go out with some friends on the weekends. I’m gonna go do some things in the community on the week. Again, sometimes I’ll take the kids with me, sometimes I won’t, and they’re going to be your responsibility. But I’m just letting you know, I’m tired of how much time I’m spending watching TV on the weekends. When she phrased it like that. I knew immediately the game changed. Yeah, because she was now saying something she has complete control of. If she’s trying to get me to do something different, she does not have control of that. She could manipulate manufacture it in a lot of different ways. You know, she could walk around naked and say, Hey, we want to you want to not watch TV and about Yeah. But, but it’s still I mean, it’s that’s still hurt, something she can’t control. She can influence but she can’t control it. But when she phrased it that way, she just changed the game to where I am now. I’m like, Oh, man. Now I have to decide, you know, do I really want to spend time with her because I don’t see her during the week, sometimes anyway, other than the evenings. And if I if she’s an important part of my life, I need to make choices. And so that kind of, to me, that’s the dynamic of what married life really is on life terms. That yeah, if it’s scary as can be, though, because you know, she makes that call, it could have very easily been okay, I guess I’ll see when we go on vacation together, you know, right? Because maybe I don’t want to give up stuff. And that’s stuff that we still kind of battle because there’s times where she’s like, I want to go do this. I’m like, Okay, then I’ll see you when you get back. I’m gonna stay here and do this. And, yeah, but it’s both of us taking more responsibility for ourselves is the goal.

17:36
Yeah, yeah. Interesting. I like that. Because just like you said, about needing versus wanting, you know, before she could have said, I need you to change, I need you to

17:46
different. And that’s, that’s often what we’re saying. And that’s the undercurrent of what we complain about is, yeah, I need you to change that behavior, because it influences and impacts me and I don’t like the way it impacts me. Right, cite the different I mean, the a good takeaway, that I use this with my clients. Yeah, times is like if just as an example, that if if they can get heated with their partner, and let’s say their partner starts to get real emotionally reactive, and me crosses the line starts to get personal changes subject to make it stuff about you know, about them, rather than what’s going on. One way to handle that, if you especially if you’re handle this on the phone is, if you want to continue to talk to me this way, we will not be talking. And they do they just hang up. And that simple way to kind of take charge of what you can handle. Yeah, and, but it’s just recognizing what’s my responsibility in this because I contribute to it. And if I’ll own my contribution, I can change what happens. But I also risk losing everything when I do that. And that’s important thing to realize.

18:59
And how do you mean, so they, they risk losing everything?

19:02
If I, if my wife is is adamant, well, let me use a different example. If I’m adamant based on the fact that we traveled for a month, and it was fantastic. She loved it. I’m pushing to try to do it full time. You know, let’s let’s you have a full time let’s travel ever sell everything and just travel. That’d be such a fun year or two. Yeah, she’s I don’t know, you know, well, if I’m adamant that I want to do that, and in me beating myself means I load up everything and leave. Well, she may not be around when I get back. Gotcha. So yeah, that’s a oversimplification of what’s going on. But it’s a reality of what’s going on, you know, if I stand up, or if you stand up to your husband for something that yeah, that, you know, he wants her enjoys or whatever, and you’re like, you know what, I don’t I don’t want to do this. I don’t like Chinese food anymore. I only want in food. And he’s a hold on. I grew up on it and you risk the relationship and that’s just the Reality, but we can’t act like it’s not there. That’s just the reality of it.

20:05
Right? Right, right, right. Yep. Yep. That’s good. That’s good. I want to ask you being that you do sexy marriage, and I’m interested in? How does sex help us to grow up? Because that’s a huge part of marriage. I’m interested if you got ideas of that.

20:22
Okay. Well, to me, I think you boil it down to the idea that the way we do life is how we do sex. And how we, how we do sex is how we’ll do life, those two are always interchangeable. So for your listeners, if if they will take some time today, tomorrow, whenever and kind of look through the lens of their sex life as a language. Well show them in mirror how they also do life. So a lot of times, if I want to take a challenging step to really confront something that bothers me in my life, yeah, sometimes that happens in sex. You know, it could be well, actually, it happens both ways that happen sex and it also happens outside of the bedroom. So maybe I want my wife to take more initiative. Something, well, that could be in bed, but it also could be with other areas of life. Yeah. So if I want to really grow up, I’ve got to step up and say, You know what, honey, I really wish you would, whatever. And I see if she does it or not, but me saying it, is what I’m responsible for. That’s all I can’t make her hat. I can’t make her do it. And maybe I need to challenge it. I mean, yeah, you made a comment. Right? Before we started, you know, off air. This is kind of a personal side plus professional conversation. Yeah. So on the personal side, first, the first five years of my marriage, sex was all one sided about me. And I feel really bad for my wife now thinking about it. This, it really sucked, because I was I was a horrible lover. Because it was all about me. It was just my anxiety release and my desire to want to feel needed. And yeah, so sex was just a manipulation for me to have an orgasm. That’s all it was. It was not at all about her pleasure. Yeah, yeah. So as that unfolds, you know, she is a very smart woman. And she realized early on, you know, it’s easier to say I don’t like sex, than it is to say, I don’t like sex with you, because I don’t get anything out of it. But the latter is more true. Because not a woman that doesn’t like sex. She’s a woman that likes sex. It’s just she, the first five years, she didn’t like me. And I don’t blame her. So I had to confront my own inadequacies, and my own selfishness and my own porn issues, and my own, just junk that I brought into the table that was just unrealistic, and learn how to be a better lover. Yeah, so now, where I am now at 44. You know, if she was to say, I don’t like sex with you, I’d be like a woman, you’re crazy. You know, what I’m doing now, I’m a grown man, that it’s not all about me, that this could be just about you, if that’s what you want. And so it’s a chance that if I, if you look at it through the lens of her responsibility, is to take care of her desires and wants as well, and seek them, not just accommodate to mine. So when she finally stood up and said it, it, it hurt on my side, but it was true. So I had to then learn and, and confront and challenge myself on. Okay, you know what, you’re right. Let’s, let’s deal with let me let me give me some time that I’ll fix that, you know, let me yeah, let me own that. And then let’s see what we can what happens?

23:55
Yeah. Well, so for the husbands that are out there listening and like, oh, my gosh, maybe this is the scales coming up, or their eyes just right, that they have been selfish in this area? I mean, are there some practical pointers that you can give to those husbands?

24:12
The best thing I ask. I just think of this in terms of when I work with clients. And we just did a show on this on sexy marriage radio that that is called sex every day. And oh, cool. And it was one because typically, whoever the high desire is that’s pushing the cart for I want sex every day. They act like it’s so great and wonderful. And their partners like yeah, sometimes, you know, the rest Yeah, rest of the time. I’m just a receptacle for your penis. And that’s a lot of fun for me. So, right, it’s learned so I what I asked in this, what I would ask to the husbands that are kind of wondering, well, what if that’s me, is how do you handle it when you don’t get it? You know, crumble and pout and throw a tantrum. Or do you are you solid enough to say okay, I get it. Yeah. Because it could be what you’re offering to your wife is not worth wanting for her. So lots of times, this is just my theory. Yeah, times the, the person that keeps rejecting sex has the better view of what’s going on. Because the sex that they’re having isn’t worth wanting. Because it is too one sided, or it is, you know, he’s got an issue that he won’t, he won’t confront he through ejaculation, you know, that he won’t, he won’t do anything about it. And he blames her. Well, hello, hold on. She’s a part of it. Yes. But maybe you got to learn to get something under control and learn how to be a better lover and add more foreplay. So she enjoys it more. And then you can have your or maybe you need to learn to slow down. And yeah, and maybe you need to be learned to be more engaged in not just routine. And, you know, because men Yeah, no, man, we fall victim to the do what works last time. And, you know, if I figure out what button push to push on my wife that really brings her to push it every time. And you know, just worked. And yet, well, if you’re building something, that’s good philosophy, but if you’re making love, that’s not always the philosophy. To change it up.

26:19
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Wow, that’s great, great advice. I love that you said the way we do sex is the way we do life. And would you even let us know? So for example, when you’re patient in life, that means you’re going to be patient in the bedroom? Is that kind of how you’re talking about it?

26:35
Maybe it can, it’s I think it’s going to be more that if you look through the idea of what are the things that you really struggle with? When it comes to having somebody be close to you? Yeah, that you’re going to have that face, you’re going to face that in your life. If you are risk averse in your life, you’re going to be risk averse in bed. If you are I want things just a certain way, then that’s the way sex is kind of be, you know, no, no, no, hold on, you just deviated from the script. You can’t do that you’re supposed to stay doing this. And, and so it’s recognizing, okay, maybe, you know, if I’m OCD in my household does, maybe I’m probably OCD and sex. And yeah. And so I’ve got to learn. And that’s a great way I could change things up and challenge myself. Yeah, you know, if sex is always supposed to be missionary position, well, what if as a wife, and I start stopping in the middle of it and say, Hold on, I want up on top of you. Yeah, that’s a challenge of myself to do it. And it could be a challenge of him. Because it’s like, oh, I can’t, I can’t finish in this position, or I can’t and then you bring a whole nother world into the interplay of, yeah, okay, now you’re both having to confront yourselves in the presence of each other. And that’s where it starts to get really cool. Then you start to get more of you present and more of you able to handle another person because you can handle yourself better.

28:09
Yeah, yeah, that’s good. And it sounds like you learn a lot of this just through practice. Yeah.

28:14
What? Yeah, this is me. Nothing prepares you for marriage. But marriage. So yeah, that’s good. on the job training and sex. Yeah, definitely the same way, especially in marriage, because you’re having sex with somebody you live life with. That’s where the day that’s where the dating world that gets off the rails. You know, I’m not a proponent of sex before and outside of marriage. I think it’s best in marriage. But that’s just that’s what my belief is. I don’t people don’t have to love what I believe. But it works for me. And the beauty of it is that because I share life with my wife, yeah, that I’m confronted with things more when we have sex, because I know, and I can read her differently. And it’s Yeah, so if I, if she really wants me to be with her present in emotional, I have to and that’s kind of not my strong suit. Sometimes. I want to just disengage and just go all physical. And just yeah, just make it about the pleasure. And she’s like, No, no, no, hold on. I want I want more of you here. I want more of a connection with you. And I’m like, hold on. I am here now. Not your body. I want you. Yeah, that means I got to bring myself to that occasion. Not just fantasize my way to orgasm. That’s a whole different ballgame.

29:33
Yeah, so I’ve never heard that before. Could you say that again? Or explain that a little bit. fantasize your way through orgasm? You don’t mind?

29:42
Alright, let me frame it this way. Wow. We’re getting we’re getting deep on some of this. I

29:46
appreciate it.

29:47
I love it. Because this is a lot of people don’t talk about and yeah. I had a client I was working with last night that she made that exact same comment as we were talking she said you know, nobody refers to it this way. I’m like, Whoa, yeah, everybody else is wrong. That’s my belief. So that’s right. It’s the idea that we have, we have sex up to the level of anxiety we can tolerate. Wow, that’s just the reality. And so a lot of times, as you got all this multiplicity of stuff that’s happening in the middle of sex, you’ve got the pleasure, you’ve got the mental, you’ve got the emotional, and you got the spiritual, right. So you got physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. So all of those are inaction. And if you’re with somebody that you’ve known for a while, because you’re married to him, then all of those can be derailed pretty easily. Because, you know, I know my wife’s facial expressions, you know, and I know when she’s frustrated, I know when she’s disconnected, I know when she’s just going through the act, I know when all of those stuff. So if I read that in her, that puts a pressure on me to decide, am I okay with her not being present other than physical? Or do I want her really involved? Yeah, you know, do I want her engaged and enjoying this. And so, lots of times, anytime something gets uncomfortable in the middle of sex, we will just disconnect. And we’ll focus on the physical, which is interesting, because you know, if, you know, for most women, if they’re going to have any kind of orgasm, the clitoris has got to be involved. Right. So you know, what only 25% of women can have vaginal orgasms during during intercourse. I mean, that’s kind of what the research shows. Sometimes it can be skewed to 30%. But, but it’s still not a lot of women, they’re gonna achieve orgasm, just from penal, vaginal intercourse, right out clitoral stimulation. And he can do that with it with his body with his fingers, you know, while he’s inside her, but it’s still, that’s if that’s not involved. Lots of women cannot achieve orgasm. So if, if she’s all of a sudden not engaged, and I’m like, wait, hold on, am I okay with this? Or is this you know, then I’m faced with Wait, I need to get back involved, or I want you involved? So am I willing to stop and risk losing everything? Or do I just start focusing on my own sensations so I can get it over with and be done? And that’s kind of Yeah, going on on both sides. A lot of times. That’s why Yeah, a lot of times a wife would be like, you know, she’s going through it to do list or, yeah, a article she read online or something while she’s hoping he’ll get done quick so that she can move on with her day. So she’s at fault for that, but he’s at fault for accepting it. You know, it’s so it’s like, Hold on a sec. There’s a whole lot more going on. Yeah. And so it’s recognizing all of that and being willing to risk everything. Because when this played out in my marriage, yeah, when I grew into becoming a better lover and learning how to be more comfortable being present, that challenged my wife to have to own her staff. And her staff was, you know, coming to grips with not being objectified, and being okay. objectified by our husband. And yeah, no, and, and all of this.

33:18
Okay, I know that we had to stop that short. But Dr. Allen gives so much more information on the second half that’s coming out on Thursday. So definitely listen into that. And before I let you go, today, I want to give you a free gift. Basically, I don’t know if your story is anything like mine. But after I was introduced to different flavors of sex, I generally didn’t know what to do, and how to implement them in my marriage. And so it took quite a lot of research. But I have been able to uncover the four stages of his best oral orgasm and that’s the guide I want to give you for free. It took quite a lot of research, but I wanted to give that to you for free once you sign up at delight your marriage.com/four stages. Now that’s the number four S T A G E ‘s, you can you can sign up for that as soon as you can. And you’ll receive it right away. So whether you’re in the future or not, that’s the place to get to it. delight your marriage.com/four stages. And that’s a free PDF. Check that out and I will talk to you on Thursday. God bless you praying for you love you. We’ll talk soon.

34:28
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Jenna, a friend of mine who is a wife and a mother. She has some inspiring stories, from her past experiences during childhood, living in a home where the mother always felt the need to be in control; to how it affected her own marriage; and most especially, her struggle as a mother seeing her child succumb to the evils of alcohol and drug addiction. She also uses the parable of the Prodigal Son to effectively relate to our own children getting lost and waiting for them to come back instead of rescuing them over and over again. Listen in as Jenna shares with us her heartfelt advice on letting go and being ready to forgive when it is time.

Want to deepen intimacy? Looking to move past your barriers getting in the way? Sign up now for a FREE Strategy Session with Belah to see if you’re a good fit for 1:1 Coaching directly with Belah! Email belah@delightyourmarriage.com before July 31, 2015!

Scripture/Quote:

• Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their labor. Ecclesiastes 4:9

You’ll Discover:

• How hospitality is close to God’s heart
• How you must put your husband first, even before your children
• How extending grace is a daily practice
• How a mother had to watch her son go through 10 years of difficult addiction

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• The Parable of the Prodigal Son
• Daily Strength, online support groups and forums

Tweetables:

• Sometimes the best thing we can do is let our children fall, and fall hard
• Love is the holding tight when your gut tells you to run. It’s pressing in when you feel like pulling away. It’s laying aside your own desires and submitting to God’s authority. It’s not easy, but so worth it.
• My husband deserved all the love; not just part of it.
• Nothing breaks a mother’s heart more than seeing her child hurting.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday & Thursday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Dr. Sandra Glahn, the author of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage. On this episode, she dives into the most difficult struggle she had to face in her life and in her marriage: infertility. It’s amazing how she has thought through and processed this struggle, and I want you all to listen in so that you too can understand that life doesn’t stop at the road block. This interview is very inspiring, uplifting, and spiritually fulfilling. Listen in!

Scripture/Quote:

• Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.” Amen. Matthew 28:20

You’ll Discover:

• How they struggled in the face of infertility
• How she compares the candle and the brick to us and the problems life throws at us
• How to accept the things that cannot be changed, such as how our husbands are not perfect
• How God decides on what we are accountable for

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• Sexual Intimacy in Marriage by William Cutrer and Sandra Glahn
• 16 Personalities personality test online
• Five Love Languages personality test online

Tweetables:

• One can be a gentle and quiet spirit, but not a gentle and quiet person.
• The candle and the brick: Both of them are subjected to heat; the other gets softer, the other gets harder.
• It’s not personality that causes marital difficulty; it’s not trials. It’s how we handle those difficulties.
• We have to use our own spiritual gifts, as well as and others’, to process our needs.
• Your character can change in terms of becoming more ethical; your personality does not.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday & Thursday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:17
Hello there. This is belah rose. And I want to thank you so much for spending your time with me today, at the delight your marriage podcast where Tuesdays and Thursdays we are listening in on conversations with wives, longtime wives and intimacy experts on what it means to have a fulfilling marriage. So thank you for being here today. I don’t know if you heard the train in the background, but I guess, the trains going by. So today I have Dr. Sandra Golan. And she actually is not only a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary, but she also is doing quite a lot of work. She’s done, written a book on sexual intimacy. And she just really is thinking through the hard questions in the Bible that are, you know, specifically to the man should do this, the woman should do this. And she really gives a lot of great insight. And today especially she dives into her most difficult struggle in of her life and of her marriage. It’s really impressive, the way that she thinks through and has thought through and processed this entire struggle I want you to listen in. But before I mentioned that I do talk about a webinar that I recently recorded, go to delight your marriage comm slash webinar and there’s a link there where you can have access to the recording before it is no longer free. So definitely go there as soon as you can, and, and be able to get that. So let’s go ahead and dive into Dr. Blondes. message for us today.

2:00
Okay, well welcome back delight your marriage listener. I’m really thrilled to have Dr. Sandra Golan. With me today. Hi, Sandra. Welcome. Hi. And now would you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your day to day life? And yeah, what your family looks like if you could

2:16
add to I’ve been married to my husband since 1979, which is probably before most of your listeners were born. And we I am associate professor of Media and worship at Dallas Theological Seminary. I teach mostly the creative writing, writing for publication. But I also teach the course in New Testament backgrounds as they relate to the women questions, all those hard scriptures that are, you know, make us scratch our heads about women. That area of academic study is studying the inscriptions and the worlds and to find out what were head coverings and all that stuff. So that’s, that’s more of a hobby that I do teach a course on that. And then we have one daughter who is 20, she has Asperger’s. So that is always a quirky, fun sort of challenge that makes your family unique. My husband worked in the legal, he was a legal administrator for a couple of decades. And in 2008 made a career change to be a sort of a new wave of missionary, which he’s over East Africa for East West missions. He’s a field director for East Africa. And that basically involves living in the United States, because the pastors on the ground are doing a really great job. But it requires about three or four or five site visits a year, whenever enough things happen that you need FaceTime, he goes over. And so he uses Skype a lot uses. We try to provide them with iPhones so that they all have the same technology. And if we need a receipt, they just take a photo of it and they’ll email it to us. Oh, wow. So it’s it’s really a great time for letting the Nationals do their work, but serving them in a capacity that, you know, sometimes running spreadsheets or things that they haven’t been trained to do.

4:04
Wow, that’s really cool.

4:07
It’s it’s a very interesting life. We’ve gone from both of us working in full time businesses where we were, you know, eight to five, to both of us being home quite a bit working, working from the house a lot I had, I had a student over last night till midnight. I prefer to meet in coffee shops over my office over tables. And so it just means that we don’t have you set office hours but we do try to really also have some margins as well.

4:36
Wow. I love that. Yeah, I love that. So would you tell us a little bit about what you and your husband’s personalities are kind of like

4:44
where he is introvert on the extrovert. Okay, I would say his love languages gifts of service, whereas my language is words. And you know, for example, when when we had the student over last night she and I were watching a movie and you Streaming just kept not working in the middle of the movie. And we have to start over. So finally, he just said, I’ll just go to red box and get you the box movie. Leaving, she’s like, he doesn’t mind. This isn’t Oh, no, no, he’s happy to be useful. Like, that’s what makes it built it. To know that I’m grateful that, you know, I have this movie that actually works. Yes. So I’ll tell you, it was interesting. In in our early years of marriage, there were people who, especially those with very traditional views of marriage, were very concerned about us, because their view was the man should be up front and the woman should be sort of quiet announced the behind the scenes brand, versus like a gentle, quiet spirit, they took a gentle, quiet personality. And, and so fortunately, my husband is the most secure man I’ve ever met. And really, it helped. Because if I was pursuing a PhD, and I was up front, and I was teaching, and I was writing books, and in on radio shows, or whatever, and he was just very happy for me to use my gifts. And again, meanwhile, he’s an administrator for a law firm. And he’s doing, you know, half million dollar photocopy contracts, which would just be the death of me. And he, he loves details. And so it’s been a really, it’s been a really great synergy of opposites attract, but it also required some transition in our marriage to appreciate we are different, and that brings something beautiful rather than we are different, therefore, something is wrong with you.

6:34
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I Gosh, this is so good. I want to just point out a couple things that you’ve already said. But one is that when you talked about you and your husband’s personalities, you first talked about each of your, whether extrovert or introvert. And then you also talked about each of your love languages. So I just want to encourage the listener, if you don’t yet know what your love languages and what your husband’s is, and or the introvert extrovert, I just so encourage you to take some personality tests, I’ll have them linked up at delight your marriage calm for you, but take some personality tests. So you can kind of get a sense of where your strengths are, where your husband’s strengths are, because that that’s integral I love that. Dr. Sandra knows that. First off, and then the other thing you mentioned, is that a gentle and quiet spirit, not a gentle and quiet personality, could you dive into that a little bit more Syndra

7:24
score, I’d be happy to, there’s a big difference between sort of having an inner peace, knowing who you are not striving for your identity and all sorts of stupid things that don’t fulfill you. And, and having so that’s where the gentle quiet spirit comes in having, having just that subtle piece of who you are and who your God is, and and sort of what sort of direction not, you don’t necessarily know what direction your specific career is going to be. But for example, I knew that I needed a career that was extroverted rather than Yeah, like my husband. So just sort of know those, those things about you. But But it’s, it’s primarily a spiritual walk on the inner life, which is different from, you know, getting onto an elevator and sort of having a friendly personality and not knowing any strangers, you know, everybody’s friend, which is more me and my husband like, I can’t believe you’re talking to that person. Well, and and there just have been a lot of people through the years that confuse the two and thought that if I was an extrovert, that if I was more seen, and not heard, yeah, that that meant that I was competing with my husband, or in some way, lacked an appropriate respect for him. And unfortunately, for me, I had clarity about it. Or fortunately for me, he had clarity about it, that we both knew what our strengths were and our weaknesses. And for some things that aren’t going to change. Your character can always change in terms of becoming more ethical, but your personality is not. Unless you have a massive brain injury or something, you’re if you’re an extrovert, you’re an extrovert. Now, I will say that I become more of an introvert through time. So my so little softening of edges, I guess, I would say, for both of us, and we’ve molded and change each other kind of like people become to look like their dogs or look like each other. I don’t know. I’ve been a softening effect. I think the both of us have had on the edges of each other’s extremes and personality. But again, not to not to mistake that that inner peace, that inner subtleness with the having a sort of comfortable in the crowd being energized by crowds versus energized by tasks. Personality.

9:43
Yeah, well, and we’re, we’re just getting started on this, this whole topic about marriage and I’m really thrilled now, would you this is a podcast that’s all about inspiring and empowering wives to live wholehearted in their marriage and would you share a scripture or quote That’s meant a lot to you over the years or even recently,

10:03
I will I the words, I will be with you. And that promise has been particularly meaningful. I teach I teach at a seminary. And sometimes people will say they didn’t teach me that in seminary. And I want to say, we taught you, I will be with you, we taught you how to handle the Scripture. So we taught you how to feed yourself, we’re not going to teach you every single thing, how to baptize in 14 different denominations, but hopefully, actually given you the skills that you need to feed yourself at some point. And I will be with you has been particularly meaningful as we have tried to work through what, for a long time we didn’t have a diagnosis for our daughter. And a very manifestation of her Asperger’s is that she her disability is that she doesn’t do empathy. She has feelings, but can’t imagine what it’s like to be in somebody else’s thread. So everything gets scraped through the grid of how does it feel to her. And so example, if we’re on our way out the door somewhere, and I stub my toe, and I’m bent over in pain, you know, most people would say, Oh, are you okay? She say she’s kind of tapping her foot saying, Are we leaving yet? And just that, so that is a long exercise and unconditional love. And know that promise, I will be with you. I haven’t given you anything more than you and I can’t do together has been a reminder over and over and over that. I’m not walking alone. He’s carrying me when I can’t walk anymore. And this spirit will give me the grace to pretty much go through whatever comes my way, because I’m not alone.

11:40
Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, and that I’m sure is also going to probably tie in to what we’re talking about the next portion is to talk about a season of struggle that you’ve had in your marriage. Because the thing is, we learned so so much during our struggles, you know,

11:57
unfortunately, that’s about the only way.

12:00
Yeah, right. Yep. Yep. So, so I’d love for you to dive in.

12:06
We had 10 years of infertility and pregnancy loss, which is sort of how a writer and so it’s even a backup for them that on the fourth of five children, and I were in a Protestant home, but I grew up hearing Are you Catholic? Do you know, prevent that, I mean, pretty much anybody who heard that, assume that I was a mistake, that nobody wanted that many children. So I grew up with a thinking that if anything, I’m gonna have more kids, then I want. And so when my husband and I hit infertility, it was a huge, it was a crisis in a lot of areas. It was a marital crisis, because that was the plan we had, it was an emotional crisis, because it was very difficult to go through. It was a spiritual crisis, because I had too narrow of a view of womanhood and, and God’s plan for womanhood, which is part of eventually teaching this class because my colleagues knew that that had been a huge study of mine, versus like, she will be saved through childbearing. You know, I’m like, what does that mean? I gotta know what that mean. And so that it had driven a lot of my scripture, and frankly, I had to go back to Genesis and relook at what have I picked up here, that’s Christian cultural baggage. That’s not actually scripture. Because I also had, we did some traveling internationally to do short term mission trips. And I came to the conclusion that if, if it’s not feminine in the United States, but it’s feminine in Kenya, like scratching a roof, for example, you know, being a river in America is not considered very feminine work. But it is women’s work in Kenya. So I had to sort through what’s biblical and what’s cultural, and shop teaching was cultural as with biblical. So it was a crisis of identity. It was a crisis of womanhood, it was a spiritual crisis. And all of that can put a lot of stress on a marriage. And unfortunately, my husband is very steady. I call him adorable husband. He’s not a drama guy. And that was really a great thing for us. At that time, we had a very stabilizing effect, but at times, it could feel isolating to me, because I was processing verbally, and he was processing internally. And I could feel very alone in the pain that I was going through. So that you know, a couple a couple of things that we’ve learned early on was that people who say that your marriage should meet all your needs are absolutely wrong. God made a covenant as for community, and we need the community as part of our marriage. But I needed the community for processing my pain. It was too much to dump all on one per person. So I found support groups. I found friends on mine. I found other people that were actually Interested in my FSH levels that you know, all the technical Garbo jumbo Garbo language that you learn, wasn’t that interesting to my husband. But it was interesting to other fertility patients, they were pretty much, you know, as focused as I was on reading the medical journals and trying to do whatever I could to help our odds. The other thing, what so, so recognizing that I needed another place for my word count, but but that that whole community thing and recognizing that it’s not a weakness in my marriage, to recognize that my husband doesn’t meet all my need, it’s actually going to give strength to my marriage, if if I have a community around me and us. So that that was 10 years that we had three years of no success, followed by separately pregnancy losses, oh, my goodness, followed by three adoptions that fell through and, and that spanned a decade. So then we didn’t have a successful adoption of our daughter, but fairly, fairly, immediately, we, we felt like we have a really angry baby. You know, now we know she, she had some developmental issues. So but it took a very, very long time to get those diagnosed and know what we were dealing with. And one of the challenges was that people immediately assumed we didn’t adopt her till she was eight months old, he immediately assumed it was a bonding and attachment issue. It fights for that as the exact opposite of what you want to do with somebody on the autism spectrum. It with balding an attachment, you want to almost smother them to convince them that you’re good that you love them and, and you know, we’d like press them to you, a child with Asperger’s usually doesn’t really like touch. So all the advice is do the exact opposite of what my child actually needed.

16:54
Oh, my goodness. So

16:57
fortunately, you know, God has also given us this sort of intuition where you’re, there’s just this gut level, we reached the point where this isn’t working this, this can’t be what it is. Because it’s just, we know our kid well enough to know, this is not what she needs from us. So it took a while to find a therapist who would believe us and then pursue other testing. So all of that, you know, it’s a really long journey. We, we it’s been a 30 year journey I just described. But everybody has their stuff. You know, everybody’s got their hard journey, the things that force you to either what is it? They say like, wax and bricks, you know, some things go harder in the sunlight and some things in the harsh heat and other things? No, that was a challenge. Have a soft heart instead of becoming more hardened?

17:48
Hmm, I love that. Well, a couple of things I wanted to pull out of what you shared in that. First of all, that’s just, it’s funny. I was talking to a woman who’s been through so much difficulty, she was telling me all these difficulties. And I just was like, yeah, those are difficulties. But just like you’re saying, Sandra, is that that that can make us say that one more time? You said a candle versus the bricks? Yeah, go ahead,

18:14
ask an umbrella. Yeah, a candle and a brick, both of them are, are subjected to heat. And in one case, it gets harder. And the other case it gets softer. So not and there are lots of studies, as I’m sure you know, I’d say it’s not this specific personalities that cause marital difficulty, it is not even a specific trial. It is how we handle those difficulties. And that is something that for the most part you can choose to do. Now there, there are things that we don’t choose, for example, if you have a serotonin imbalance in your brain, or if you have, my dad had a stroke, and his personality has changed significantly. There are some My daughter has Asperger’s, there’s some things I think that make us accountable in different ways for our behaviors. So my daughter is less accountable for for not showing empathy than I would be, for example. And that it’s up to the mystery of God to sort all that through, you know, in His justice system. But for the most part, we we can we can make a lot of choices in our marriages and in our relationships for how we handle the stress.

19:21
Wow. Wow, I love that. Well.

19:24
And one thing that you also mentioned prior is that it’s a strength to realize that your husband won’t meet all of your needs. I’m interested in hearing what you mean by that more so well, so you could probably already tell I you know, I have a verbal person. And he’s not then he could be he’s not energized by people upon he’s energized by tax. So when I sit down and process verbally with him, I go away feeling more energetic, he goes away feeling drained. That is not to say he doesn’t, doesn’t enjoy or appreciate time together. But it means he then needs some space. And I don’t. So yeah. So recognizing that with infertility, I had an even higher word count, because I was processing so much, whether it was the medical treatment we’re going through whether it was a violation of our privacy and our love life, whether it was the things people assumed about me, as I was pursuing my career that if they didn’t know, I was going through infertility thought I was just too into my career to have a family, I mean, just all the things that, that that, you know, from every side, the financial strain, all that, if I had needed a conversation with my husband, about every one of those, the poor man, you know, wouldn’t just tell them and to recognize in him that that was not a weakness in him, that God, you know, opposites attract, because we need, we had synergy, it’s good for us, right, diversity is built into the way God has created this. And so just to recognize that some of my girlfriends who are going through infertility, were actually interested in knowing my cycle. And you know, what the details were and what the doctor had said, and what questions I was wrestling with. And that’s not to say we didn’t have many conversations in our marriage about those things. But there’s a little there’s sort of a little rule of thumb among infertility patients to limit that to about 15 minutes a day, where the the less verbal spouse commits to undivided attention and interest, no checking email, no reading online and no doing something else, complete undivided attention. But knowing this is going to end up at 10 minutes, I don’t have to endure this for four hours. And the person who is more verbal, knowing I got a 15 minute shot, so I gotta boil this down to what’s most important to me. And anything that boils over that go find your support group, go find your friends. Yeah, but to it otherwise, it’s just overwhelming for both but the more verbal person and it is sometimes the male, or the more verbal person feels, can feel really isolated. If it’s all the expectation is my marriage is going to be the place where this it’s like all this stuff that’s welling up that needs processing, and there’s nowhere for it to go. But the other is completely overwhelmed by the firehose of word count. And so just to recognize God made us differently, God never said our marriages were supposed to meet all of our needs. If that were true, there wouldn’t be the need for the body of Christ, there wouldn’t be statements like the I shouldn’t say to the hand, I don’t need you. We are totally made for community and the community was a big part of our healing through infertility, the the recognition that one person just cannot meet all your emotional needs and should not. That’s why we have to rely on other people’s spiritual gifts, and also use our own gifts. In some of the conversations I was having, where I was processing, it was actually ministering to other people going through the same thing because it was a shared a shared journey.

23:03
And it sounds like to find people that would be happy to process with you, it sounds like you were really proactive to find these groups, or how would you say you went about finding this community?

23:13
Initially, I asked my doctor who was a believer, and he ended up being my co author on seven books. Wow, called a doctor, patient, male, female, sane, insane. And we we left it up to the jury, which one of us was insane. But he initially I asked him, you have a group of your patients that, you know, you get to get together informally, I don’t really feel like I need a therapist, I just need people to understand. He said, I don’t have a group like that. But I have a patient who is part of a consumer group like that. And he gave us contact numbers. And the first time we got together at a restaurant, we sat and laughed and cried for three hours. It’s so wonderful to have somebody who understood and actually somebody had the same doctor. That was that was help. She connected me to there all sorts of informal online and, and in person support groups. Sometimes their therapist led but not usually we were just looking for a gathering of people who understood. Yeah, so in some cases, like I started, one at my church just gathered the different people who had come to me and, you know, shared their similar struggle. And so in some cases, you know, I I joined a group that existed already and another cases I created, we’re talking 10 years, right. So yeah, I wasn’t in three groups at a time, which is like over the span of time, as people would get pregnant and move on and have their, you know, or adopt or whatever, the groups would disappear. And you’d have to find or formulate sort of a new group.

24:42
Yeah. Well, I love that you were saying, also, one piece that I pulled out from what you were talking about is there are things that make us more accountable, and things that make us less accountable, and it’s the beauty of God’s kind of design. He knows how much each month and should be accountable for certain things. It sounds like what you have really learned, almost like, and what you really grasped is understanding that we all have our cross to bear. And, and this has been yours in a huge sense. Is that kind of what you would?

25:20
Yeah, I would love this as a big part of it, I would also say that I saw in the church a need for a more robust Theology of the Body, if you will. In other words, you know, somebody shares, I’m struggling with depression and the knee jerk reaction in a study or something would be Have you tried essential oils that you, you know, not that those aren’t legit, but like, the first go to thing is try this, try that, try this, try that. And, and, in, in many cases, there was a physical, whether it was thyroid, whether it was serotonin, you know, we the last place we go is maybe there’s a physical problem that’s causing this. And my infertility was caused by an anti anti cardio with an antibody issue, which basically my body was allergic to embryos, in addition to the fact issue, but for years, it went unexplained. And so when you have unexplained infertility, people assume you need to relax. And it’s, it’s just you we beat up the patient with these statements of Have you tried this? Have you tried that, instead of instead of weaving with people and letting them tell you if they want, and if they don’t, they don’t. But I feel like we need to fix that or give advice. And so that’s, that’s a big part of my journey too.

26:50
Wow, such powerful stuff. And I want to just encourage you to keep all these things in perspective, that eventually whatever struggle, you’re going through, my by God’s grace, you’ll be looking back and you’ll be able to say, Wow, God had a purpose in it, whatever the struggle is that God is making you more like himself, you know, gold is only refined by the fire. So sometimes we have to go through these challenges. And and God gets the glory over the long term. We might never see it even this side of eternity, but with slate eventually, by God’s grace, okay, well, we’ll talk again Thursday. Thank you. God bless you. I love you.

27:31
Bye, bye. Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.