Podcast: Play in new window | Download

If you have had sexual sin in your marriage, it’s really hard to figure out who to talk to. Not everyone is safe. Today, Jen gets it. Her marriage suffered greatly when her husband’s pornography addiction was revealed. She helps us understand what we need in the midst of the crisis. Who we should be sharing our heart to (and who we shouldn’t). Listen in for hope and healing in this discussion.

Find out more about Jen Ferguson at pureeyescleanheart.com

You’ll Discover:

• That you are not alone in dealing with porn addiction in your marriage.
• The real reason men escape into pornography…(spoiler alert: it’s not your extra 20lbs!)
  • The world will lie to us and say we’re not x enough, that’s why our husband’s are addicted, but that’s only because they want to sell you something.
• How to overcome shame.
• What can you do to share your pain?

Scripture/Quote:

• Romans 15:13
  • May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
• Galatians 6:2
  • Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ

Resources:

• Time article about how negative porn is. It’s a helpful article (I just disagree with the first sentence).
• Pure Eyes, Clean Heart, this is Jen’s book and she walks you through the heartache and healing process she went through as a result of her husband’s porn addiction. Rest assured dear wife, you are not alone.
• Here are the links to our previous conversation about Jen’s story and heart for marriage: 67: Fixing a Porn Addiction and 68: Intimacy After Heartbreak

Tweetables:

• It’s very hard to access compassion for your husband when you’re having to jump over this wall of hurt and anger.
• Marriage is about intimacy and is a reflection of our intimacy with Jesus.
• How can you have true intimacy when there’s blackness separating you two?
• What does a safe outlet look like?
• It is not an option for me to carry this alone.
• Let’s be really, really real with God.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:  

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah rose.

0:19
Thanks so much for joining us as belah rose, and I’m grateful that you’re here on the podcast with me. If you have gone through anything in your marriage that any way resembles a porn addiction, whether it’s adultery, whether it was your husband having wandering eyes, whether it’s yourself just feeling kind of insecure in a in a, you know, a culture that pretends like perfect bodies is the most important thing that we should all aspire to. I think today’s conversation is going to be really important, because we’re talking about sharing the pain. And it’s painful to find out about a sex addiction of our spouse, it’s so painful, and it feels incredibly isolating, it feels like we’re the only ones going through it. And because there’s all this shame around it, especially in Christianity. You know, it feels like we have to retreat from our Christian friends, our Christian circles, our people at church, they must not understand what I’m going through. And I want to just say the enemy wants you to feel isolated. He wants you to feel alone. He wants you to feel like this is a secret you can’t share with anybody. But that’s a lie. Because God uses people to help us to get free from the strongholds in our minds. And so today, I have a phenomenal conversation with Jen Ferguson, she was actually on the podcast before. But she’s got an amazing story. She has been there. She has experienced the betrayal and the heartache from her husband’s porn addiction. And she talks about how she shared how she talked about it, how she got healing, through prayer, through conversations with others through counseling, counseling, just an FYI, I think is huge. It’s so important. I have done counseling many times, there are always times where we can be helped by someone to talk through what’s going on in our hearts, what’s going on in our minds, directing us closer to Jesus. So I just want to kind of give that as my caveat, like, counseling is so vital. But that’s not the only thing. There’s plenty of other ways that God heals us through people. But I just wanted to give a plug for counseling, because God can really teach people through through it. Alright, well, let’s dive in to our conversation with Jen and and let’s hear how God can give us hope, even when we’re in the midst of this significant battle

3:22
All right, well, welcome back. Thank you so much for joining me on the delight your marriage Podcast. I’m really excited. I’ve got Jen Ferguson with me. Hi, Jenny. Welcome. I’m so glad to have you back. So Jen, and I talked months ago, but it was a wonderful episode. Episode You can are in, you can either go to Episode 67, or 68, to hear her story about really the pain that happened in her marriage. And that’s basically what we’re going to be diving into more is really sharing your pain? And can you kind of Jen, talk a little bit for those that haven’t heard the episode yet. Or your previous episodes? What just a little bit about your story, and then we’re going to dive more into how you process that and how you heal from that. Sure,

4:15
um, for many, many years, since my husband was in junior high, until about probably four years ago or so. He was addicted to pornography. And I happened to catch him every single time except for one time when he actually confessed to me, which was a huge breakthrough in our marriage. But I really struggled with what is I didn’t even know that looking at porn could be an addiction. So we started there kind of in my naive place, moving to Okay, well, now I’ve caught you, you should be ashamed of yourself and therefore never do it again to come into the realization that this is a really powerful addiction that the enemy is using to destroy my marriage history and so because of my own baggage, I thought the answer was to fix the problem and control them and make all these rules so that he couldn’t do it anymore. And instead of really seeking God and allowing God to change His heart, and so the whole process, and that’s what our book is about is about how did I let go of control so that God could really move not only in Craig, but also heal all the things in me, that resulted from the porn addiction, but even from my own past of needing to control and have power and make these kind of false safety nets for myself.

5:37
Mm hmm. Yeah. And, and there, I’m so grateful that you are willing to be brave and stand up and share this story and this hardship, because, as infrequently as people talk about this, it is so rampant in our society. I mean, have you have you seen like, in your interactions with people, as you’ve, you know, went for it and published his book? And have you seen like women coming out of the woodwork telling you about their stories?

6:04
Oh, yeah. And, and it’s really amazing. I’ve spoken with people on the phone or via email from all over the world. And what breaks my heart the most is that they don’t have anyone or don’t know of anyone can share their pain and relate. And so they end up calling me someone who, or you know, finding me on Facebook or whatever, which I love. Because I mean, the whole reason or as to tell this story, so that people did not, don’t feel isolated that they know that this is a problem that so many people face. But the more we talk about it, the more Satan’s stronghold of shame evaporates. And and so you know, it just kind of fostering this idea that porn addiction is not something that we can keep hidden under a rock, whether we’re the addicted or the one married to the addicted, right? Yes.

7:01
Yes, I love that porn addiction is not something we can keep under a rock and assume it’s going to go away. It just it’s not. And, and in the same way, whether you’re the one the victim of the porn addiction, you know, if you’re receiving that, like your, your husband’s addicted, your wife’s addict or something like that, or you’re the person that is addicted yourself. And you know, it’s interesting. I’ve been reading a lot about habits recently. And it’s I I, you know, it’s just kind of a, something I’m really interested in. So I’ve been reading a lot about habits. And there’s a habit called better than before. I mean, there’s a book called better than before, and and Gretchen Rubin talks about how there’s basically two kinds of people, there’s the moderator kind, and there’s the abstainer kind of person, and the moderator is like, I could have one piece of chocolate a day and I’d be fine. And the abstainers, like, if I’m going to have any chocolate, I’m going to have the whole bar or eight, right? Or I’m not going to have any right chocolate at all. And it’s funny, because I think in our society, the society is pushing on us that porn is okay. And it’s something you can do in moderation. And that’s okay. We can, you know, and that’s just a healthy part of your sexuality or norm and are normal. Yeah. And I think it’s absolutely, I mean, obviously, as Christians, we believe that it’s the abstain or like, you have to abstain. There’s really no option there. Right? Um, yeah, go ahead. Wine.

8:41
What’s really great, though, is like near the Time magazine a few weeks ago, wrote a whole article about the dangers of porn. So more and more secular psychiatrist scientists, psychologists are saying that pornography is bad, not just because it’s spiritual, take the spiritual out of it. It is wrecking the brains of our children and our I mean, men and women, it is changing the chemical composition of their brain. And that addiction has that. I mean, it’s a power to grow and grow and grow and you have to abstain from porn, or you will continue to escalate. It doesn’t just magically get better.

9:18
Huh, that is so good. That is so, so helpful. You have to abstain or it’s going to get bigger. It’s not it doesn’t just stay the same. It’s it’s a it’s a monster that wants to be fed over and over and over again. You have to starve it right? You have to starve, right? That’s really good. I’m going to link to that. I’m going to find that article link to it in the show notes. Thank you for that. Because I’d really like to look into that more. Um, so Okay, so, again, we’re talking about the wife that either either she herself is struggling with porn and I think I’ve read somewhere that it’s something like a third of women. Either are I think actively struggling so that’s not including the women that have struggled in the past with porn. And then secondly, we’re also talking about the wife that is dealing with a husband that struggling or maybe he’s struggled in the past. So, we’re talking about sharing our pain in this arena. I mean, how does a wife start to even think of sharing it? I mean, there’s so much around it, there’s so much shame, like you said, How does she even begin to, to open up?

10:25
I think, um, you know, there’s so many things that go through your mind when you have a pain like this. And honestly, you know, this was, gosh, when our first year of marriage and where we were coming up on 16 years, so 16 years ago, I knew nobody that talked about porn. So I thought that my only option was to just deal with this by myself. And it wasn’t until a few years later, when my husband became suicidal, that I had to reach out because it was like, now I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have two babies, and a husband and I, it was, he was like, My Cup is over. I couldn’t keep it contained anymore, the lid flew off, you know, is out of the bag. And so I started with his parents, because his dad was a priest. And I was like, you know, oh, my gosh, you know, um, and so I wondered if I had taken if I had not let it get to that point inside me, where it took something as radical as you know, suicidal thoughts and words coming out of my husband’s mouth, had, I been able to address some of that pain from the beginning, because, I mean, I took my pain to God, in a way, like, here’s my pain, Lord, I really need you to fix this. But because it, I’m on my own issues with control, I thought giving it to him. And then I would just take it back and start figuring out what I needed to do, right, instead of really listening to him about to tell me about what this addiction meant and everything else. And so I think when you you, this bomb drops in your lap, if you if you catch your husband, or if he come to you and confesses or whatever. It’s really important, twofold for you to be able to communicate to your husband, this is a big deal. This is this is wrecking my heart. And I need to be able to talk to someone who’s safe about this. Because it is his pain, too. So it’s like you don’t want to go and, quote unquote, out him or uncover Him, you know, he’s probably carrying a whole lot of shame. And then a lot of honestly, a lot of men that are addicted are also pastors. So for it to get out in the wrong way through and we know that churches are breeding grounds for gossip, it can just be bad news. But I think communicating to your spouse and say, I cannot carry this alone. I want to be with you. And I want to work with you on this. But I also need a safe outlet. And then kind of talking with him. What did the safe outlet look like? I’m in this situation? Do I need to go to a counselor who understands what it’s like to deal with sexual addiction or to be married to someone who’s, you know, sexually addicted? Is there a close friend or couple, a couple would be awesome, so that you have a team of people working with you, um, but really just kind of sit down and say, I need this. This is a you know, this is a requirement for me to be safe. Let’s brainstorm some people that we can both trust. And because and I also feel like it’s so important to pray and ask God who is safe in this situation? Because there could be somebody that you think is personally is perfectly safe. And given any other topic. They would be awesome and amazing for you. But right, but that’s right. If they’re in it with porn, and they’re not ready to acknowledge it, or if I’m, you know, they, if their husband is addicted, and they’re not ready to acknowledge it, or they’d have no experience and they think, right, this is not a big deal, dude, oh, man, do this, that is not going to be helpful or right and even set you back further, because then you walk away thinking I really am alone.

14:08
Right, right. Or the woman that like you said, is unaware or doesn’t even realize it’s this huge epistemic issue and she might be horrified and not even know right to do it just just, again, make you feel more and more isolated more and more shame, right. Totally agree. Okay, so. So I think the first step is really having that conversation with your husband, to try to figure out who’s a safe person that I can talk to about this that we can talk to about this,

14:43
right.

14:45
And it sounds like, you know, I remember a a dear wife that I love very much as I was just getting to know her really early on in our friendship Share that her husband was struggling with this in a group setting. And, and it was really hard to know how to respond. Because if it were just she and I talking, I would really like just hold her and, you know, have the opportunity to really figure this thing out and figure out resource and all this kind of stuff. But kind of like you said, it sounded unstead, unfortunately, like outing him. And I think there was a lot of difficulty that, you know, she was obviously hurting, right, you know, and so that was her response was to, to do this. So I think that’s, that’s, that’s like an easy, like, knee jerk reaction is to run out and get help. Tell whoever you need to as long as you, you know, find someone to help you. But it’s a little harder to say, this is the person that’s hurting me. And I’m going to go to him and submit myself to him and say, can I talk to people about this? Right, right,

15:55
right. And I think you know, and that’s part of the eye, that’s where kind of boundaries come in, because he could say, Whoa, no, there’s no way or this is not a big deal, you shouldn’t be, you don’t need to talk to anybody in minimizing your feelings. And so I think in that, when you say, I need to go to counseling for this, like, it is not an option for me to be alone in this. You, we have to come up with a way out. And so what is great about counseling, is they’re not going to tell anybody about what’s happening, you know, so I think looking for, even if you can’t tell your best friend at this moment, you can still find a place that will, you know, honor your husband’s wishes at that time, when I’m completely sacrificing what you need.

16:52
Right. I think that’s good. And I think also, it sounds like Jen, being clear about what you need is very important.

17:00
Yes, yes. And communicating that clearly. Right, because you do have needs in this situation, and your needs are valid, and but with anybody that’s addicted to something that they, you know, porn, it’s kind of like a security blanket. And so when you say to your spouse, this cannot be a part of our marriage. Like we have to bear this out and and not do this anymore, it kind of like you’re ripping away their security blanket, because they’re going this porn, the porn is filling a need for them in a very unhealthy way. But this is how they’re getting their needs met. And to be. It’s like anybody that has a drug addiction or an alcohol addiction. They’re the reason why they have that addiction. And so, um, you know, they’re going to need support in this process as well. So I think if you do the counseling, I’m, and I’m not in, you know, Craig went to counseling, and it was not a good experience. And we wrote about that in our book. So it’s so important, really, just as you’re praying for who it’s their friends that you want to share it with, paying for about that counselor and making sure that they have a good understanding of what porn addiction or sexual addiction is about. Because not all counselors are aware of that.

18:18
Huh, that’s interesting. Okay, well, let me just backtrack for a second and ask you about when you said, porn is like a security blanket. And they’re getting their needs met, what kind of needs are you talking about? And what how is porn, like, helping them go through life.

18:37
But in my husband’s example, hit he, when things were overwhelming in real life, and he didn’t have the coping skill or the capacity to deal with that he would escape into this fantasy world where he could have control, he could feel like a man without actually having to be one. It was just a complete disconnect from operating in real life. And obviously, it’s fake, like, it’s a feel good, you feel good for, you know, however long you’re engaging in it, and then you put it down and you’ve had that release, you know, the hormone release, you get the high, you get the rash, but then you just, it’s like a sugar crash, right? And then it’s like, oh, my gosh, what have I just done? Um, because you at least with Craig Craig was a Christian when he was doing all this and he could feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but, and he couldn’t, like it wasn’t enough at that time to convince him that there was another way to, to get his needs met, to actually get real help to rely on God to help him through whatever part of his reality was too much. And, and I think, you know, also Craig grew up to be very independent, and didn’t know how to articulate his needs, because he was afraid that they wouldn’t get met. So instead of asking real people are asking me Hey, this I’m feeling X, could you please do why? It was? Well, I’m just gonna take this need and give it to someone who can’t hurt me and get this temporary fix. You know so basically with near to asking your spouse not to use porn, you’re taking away that temporary fix and that go to where you find relief.

20:25
Yeah, yeah and I like also how you’re, we’re talking about it as an addiction because truly chemicals that are released in the porn experience does literally make the brain addicted to the pornography. So it’s it’s not only everything that you just said, but it’s additionally physical addiction, right? And so just like the alcoholic goes to alcohol to deal with life, to have that that coping mechanism, you know, the over eater like myself, I’ve had that in my past where all food Yep, to deal with that motion. Right. Right. And, and it’s funny, we were talking about the abstainer versus the moderator. I’m more of the abstain or when it comes to food, like, there are certain types of food I have had to cut out of my life completely, because of the effects it has to me, because I but yeah, I mean, we can each identify things in our own lives that we can understand our husbands in a little bit larger of a degree that if you think about this is helping him cope with life. Right. This is less about is he attracted to you, or is he not? That’s not the question here at all. It’s coping. Yeah, exactly. That’s in In fact, that’s the wrong question. I think. Now to circle back to what you’re talking about with the counseling, finding a counselor that’s understands porn addiction is vital, because the societal refrain is, well, then the wife must not be putting out or something like that. And that’s not that’s not at all what we’re talking about. What would you say to a wife that is thinking that way? Like, it must be my fault. I must be the one at issue here,

22:00
right? Well, pornography is not about sex. It’s about fantasy. And so you could and even if you tried to become this fantasy, which would be to your own detriment, most likely, it’s not the same. Like he’s because you are attached to real life. You come with real life, emotions, real life problems, real life, you know, awesomeness to and but it’s realized that he’s trying to escape not because you’re not enough to fulfill his fantasy. It’s completely separate kind of thing.

22:35
Huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. And so when, when someone who’s looking for a counselor, what are some things that they can do to find the right person?

22:50
I would definitely do your research, um, call ask questions. And get me get referrals as much information that you can gather. I mean, I would say even calling asking for a phone interview and saying, What would you This is our problem? How would you begin to address this, and if it’s only kind of behavior therapy, because everything every addiction has that route, so you want a counselor to understand that, that this is an escape from some sort of trauma or baggage from the from their childhood, or young adulthood or whatever. Because with Craig, you know, the first time he looked at it, it was that, you know, Junior High boy, whoa, you know, like, there’s that, but then to continue to keep turning to it. It bit like Satan is really tricky with this. And so it just ended up in cat in, wrapped in, in holding him or whatever. Like, he used it to say, see, this is how you can get your needs met. See, they’re not gonna do it. Right. Right, by you, you’re alone, you’re isolated, you need to turn to this, you know, and so, um, I think having a even going to a Christian counselor who understand sexual addiction is so powerful, because, I mean, Jesus is one that set Craig free, and we’re able to really heal the wounds from his past. And the ultimate answer for Craig was I need to turn to Jesus instead of porn, but it was a spiritual battle. And so to have someone who understand that there’s spiritual warfare attached to this addiction, is Yeah, is incredible, isn’t just an incredible weapon in your arsenal.

24:35
Yes. And you know what, that is a huge piece that I think a lot of times we as wives miss, because we’re so wrapped up in the pain and the hurt, which is very valid and very true and very much happening. But it’s very hard to see outside of that and say, what spiritual ramifications are happening. I mean, that takes, I mean, how were you able to see it that way?

24:57
Well, once I realized that point, wasn’t it. About me, and it really enabled me almost to like step back as a kind of like an outside of your body experience and look at the situation, not through my eyes, but through God’s eyes. And in that I was able to access compassion for my husband, which is I mean, if we, if we carry around our, this pain inside of us, it just it hardened into anger. And then, and then where are you going to go? Like, it’s very hard to access, love and compassion, when you have to jump over this huge wall of anger. And it’s very hard to pray when you’re angry, like you really pray and intercede for your husband with anger is hard, you know? And, yeah, so that’s why I think it’s so important first for you to hear me ladies that this porn is not because you’re overweight, or because you’re underweight or because your boobs are not big enough, or you have wrinkles on your, on your, you know, crow’s feet or whatever. This is not about your exterior experience. This is about your spouse’s inability to have intimate relationship, and they are afraid. And so they’re running away. And so that’s why I think I’m counseling or trusted couple or a pastor whoever understand what it what intimacy and intimate relationship with Jesus and an intimate relationship between a man and a woman is so powerful,

26:33
huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So just to reiterate, I’m so grateful. You said that this porn addiction is not about you, your exterior, the way you look like that kind of thing. That’s not what this is about. It is about your spouse’s inability to be intimate. And, and that’s vital. I mean, and the same, I think in the same breath of that is, the additional understanding of this is his way of coping with hard things. And when I’ve even had conversations with wives that just there, they just don’t want to fight it anymore. They’re just like, well, that’s what he does sometimes. Right? And, and that’s just not, that’s not okay. That’s not what God has. Because in Proverbs, I believe it’s proverbs five, it says that adultery destroys a man’s soul. And that’s what it is porn is adultery is internal adultery. Well, that’s what Jesus says, when you lust everyone with your eyes, or your in your mind, you commit it in in your heart, you’re actually committing adultery. But if you can imagine the, the wrecking what, like, I love the the perspective of spiritual warfare, because think about it. Our purpose in marriage is to prepare our husband, our spouse for eternity, we are the one that’s closest to them. We are the iron sharpening iron, they are preparing us we’re preparing them, by serving each other, we are in preparation for eternity for being Jesus bride. And so if you think about this as a spiritual, some spiritual attack, and a way that you are the opportunity for him to grow into the person he supposed to be, it changes the whole perspective, it changes your perspective on this is a spiritual thing. This is something that he’s doing that is not in line with God and you are fighting to save his soul. I just think that’s a whole different perspective than you know, yes, there’s pain. Yes, there’s anger, all that stuff, like you said, and that has been worked through. But I think eventually, to get to a place that this is a spiritual warfare, this is something that you can take arms against, how are you going to be protecting your husband? From this? How can you help him? I mean, what do you think about those things?

28:58
Alright, I totally agree, and even even more, so to build off what you said, about you know, we’re iron sharpening iron together, we’re marriage is also supposed to be the depiction of, of how Christ loves the church and that relationship. And so if you bring in this betrayal into a marriage, it eventually even if people are not seeing the porn addiction, they’re gonna see that there is an issue, right? Because we can’t access true intimacy with Jesus when we have this big piece of blackness, you know, sitting between I, um, and I think, like, if we can have a perception that porn addiction is a battle and that we’re engaging in a war. Not only are we praying over our husband, but it reminds us to pray over ourselves, because, you know, lies are powerful. And when you have a society that is saying, Well, women look like should look like this and talk like this and act like this and be everything, you know, you should be the powerful CEO and then the auto nurturing mother all at the same time, every day, every hour. I mean, there’s so much room for attack on women and on you. And so for you to be engaged in interceding for your husband, you can also be engaged in interceding for yourself.

30:19
Yes, yes. Yes, that is so, so true. And there’s so much to it, because the enemy wants you to doubt yourself to doubt, your sexual abilities to doubt your everything he wants to bring down, right. And the thing in our society, right is all about that like to make you feel like you’re not able in every way to do what you’re supposed to do as a wife, as a mother as this or that as a as a follower of Jesus. And it’s just a lie. So how does? Oh, gosh, I feel like we could talk so much more about this. But we’re wrapping up. So I want to just kind of ask you, you know, how does a wife, maybe some practical steps, let’s get to the here and now like what are some things that would be good for her to really start doing?

31:12
And well, I think for sure, bringing sharing you were talking about sharing your pain, let’s be really, really real with God, because they’re in when I’m sharing my story in the first chapter of our book, pure eyes, clean heart, I pretty much verbatim write down the conversation that I had with God on Mother’s Day when I got Craig looking again. And I said, Why the hell did you think that this was a good idea for me to marry this person, and I listed all of the pain that had I had gone through in my life, and I was like, and you’re gonna give me this, like, what is going on. And I think it’s so good to be able to, because that’s what intimacy is like to be able to tell God, anything that you need to tell him, he can take it, he is really big, and he is really able, and he understands like it says, we have, I mean, Jesus understands every single emotion, he walked this earth, just so many would know that he really does understand and he hears us. And so I would say first share your pain with God. Second, talk to your husband about finding a safe outlet for you in Galatians. Six, it talks about that we are to share each other’s burdens. And this fulfills a lot of crap, but it obeying the law because a lot is Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, all your thing, and love your neighbor as yourself. So we are not designed to carry a burden like this by ourselves. And Satan wants us to be isolated. And he wants us to feel that shame and that oppression. And the fastest way we can get out of that is bringing it to the light to people who we can trust and who have the ability to give us compassion to not say this is if some of you share it with someone and they say all men do that. You just stop that conversation, bless them and go, that’s right now because that is not the truth. And the last thing you need to do is to be having conversations with someone who is furthering the lie, you know? And that’s right. And so then you then then it prayer. I mean, prayer is part of this whole process, right? So it’s always but I’m in fire as a spiritual warfare. There’s a book by Beth Moore called praying God’s word. And it’s about all of these different strongholds, and one of them is sexual strongholds. And I would sit down every day. And I would read these scriptures that she had turned into prayer, and I would pray them over my husband, because you’re you know, prayer is a are sort of the spirit of the Word of God and then praying His Word over a husband, it makes a big difference. And even if we can’t see that, immediately, we have to trust and have faith that it is chipping that wall. And I was talking with someone just the other day, whose husband is struggling with this. And I said, you know, we as wives would love to just rip the wall down, right? And just take that security blanket way, whatever, and just rip it down so that it will be gone, because that’s what’s safe for us. But I did think about your husband, and how if God just ripped all of that away, how much fear and how much sense of exposure and just lost like, oh my gosh, how do I cope? I mean, it’s just the fact that I said I think God is so gracious to have that chisel and he just slowly chisels away and and he wounds us because relationship is about wooing and it’s about building trust. And, and so as he takes one stone down, then he gives him something else that is good and holy in life giving to feed him, you know Not you have to have a trade off. You can’t just take away everything and expect people to cope through life. You have to give them new tools. But that’s the process, right? Mm hmm.

35:10
Yeah. And it’s funny, it’s, it’s interesting, because, um, yeah, I’ll save that for another time. But I just, I’m so grateful. This is exactly right. Because it is a process, you don’t want to get to this mode of, it’s all or nothing like you’re either failing, or you’re succeeding, like you’re either failure, you know. And I think there’s even a part of that, that you’re a partner in this with him, you’re helping him fight this, you’re helping him in these areas. And of course, that’s not an easy place to get to. And of course, there’s anger and pain and healing that has to happen. But I love Jen, your heart of of going through this process. And I think, you know, clean eyes, clean heart is a really great resource that people can go through that process with you, Jen to really get through this. So tell us where they can find you online and how they can get a hold of your book. Yeah.

36:07
So we have a website called Pure eyes, clean, heart calm. And on there. There’s some articles that I’ve written for covenant eyes, there’s some periscopes that I’ve done. It’s really share my heart and some practical ways that Craig and I have worked through this point addiction and pure eyes, clean heart is on Amazon, you can check your local bookstore too. But yeah, and you can you can find you can contact us through pure, clean heart, if you just need a way need someone who understands what you’re going through. We are both available to talk with you. And just, we don’t, God is the answer. And God has a solution. But it’s so helpful for you to be able to share your pain with someone who understands where you’re going, and what you’re what you’re grappling with. Because this is this isn’t there’s not a quick fix. And that’s sometimes so hard for people that understand because they don’t want to believe that something could take so long, right? Because you’re in every time it comes up. You feel that pain of that initial betrayal again, Mmm hmm. So you need people even if you you’re two years out, and then there’s a slip up, like you’re gonna need someone to be like, Oh, my gosh, tell me that. This is not that we’re going back to square one because you’re not going back to square one. That’s right, God. That’s right. That’s healing has not been erased. God progress, right, not been erased. That’s right. But where we are human. And sometimes we get into temptations, even though we know like that it could. It’s not going to be good for us. Right? It’s like when you eat the fifth chocolate bars. That’s right.

37:44
For you. That’s right. It’s so true. And I think, you know, as wives if we can understand it, in the ways that we’re struggling with sin, we’re not we might not be struggling with porn, but we are struggling with sin. And to understand that, that that’s just to give our husband a little bit more grace, I think is powerful and important. And, again, Jen, I’m so so grateful. I think you’ve given some really wonderful insights, I want to summarize the last three things that you said, kind of practical steps is one, Jesus really does understand, he really does. So to be really, really honest, and share with him what’s going on in your heart. I’m a journaler, it’s really much easier for me to share the hardest emotions, when I’m just writing it out when I’m actually like putting my thoughts into words. So that might be something that people can find some solace in. The other thing is talk to your husband about who’s going to be safe to share your pain with. Yeah, that’s really important. And you mentioned before we were on the call, there’s a book called safe people.

38:53
Right, right, if I am Henry Cloud and John Townsend, and it really helpful in learning and they also have a book called boundaries. So I love that book. You know, it’s really figuring out how boundaries make you a safer person. And if you because you do need to advocate for your knees, but you need to advocate for them in a way that is not confrontational and adversarial. You know, but in that, okay, this is I need to feel safe in our marriage. And so what what are ways that we can agree on that we can both feel safe, where I would feel safer if you installed covenant eyes on you know, on the computer or but if but I understand that’s not gonna solve the problem. That is a you know, safety measure. But But addiction is about a root. So you still have to right? That’s right. This is about developing intimacy and going back and allowing God to heal those places that allow this addiction to take root so you know what I’m saying? So it’s always remembering. This is about this is a heart issue. and his heart is, is thick or broken, you know. And so we need God’s healing power to be involved in that and covenant eyes won’t bring that healing. Only God can. But but you know, figuring out like, what do I need to feel safe in this? How can I remain engaged in this marriage when I feel hurt? How can I keep walking toward light? Because porn addiction can be very confusing. It’s not you know, it’s like we as a society, we say Adultery is wrong. You know, like, yeah, that’s in the Bible. There’s nothing about specifically porn, like the word pornography is not in, in the Bible. So it kind of gets muddled in our heads to praying for clarity and that God would continue to reveal what it is. That is part of the solution.

40:50
Mm hmm. Yes, that is so good. Cool. Well, okay, so go to pure eyes, clean heart COMM For more information about Jen to follow her to reach out to her. She’s obviously got a very warm heart and very amazing. Yeah, amazing testimony and insights from that. So follow her there. I’m going to have the links to everything that we’ve talked about on the show notes. So you’re welcome to go to delight your marriage calm to find those. But Jen, seriously, from the bottom of my heart. Thank you so much for this conversation.

41:20
Yeah, it’s been awesome. I really appreciate you having having me back.

41:27
So grateful for Jen’s heart, aren’t you? I mean, it’s amazing when other people have gone through what you’re going through, and they can get to the other side and say, Man, there’s hope. It sucks right now. It is really, really bad season. But there is hope on the other side. And that’s what Jen actually ended the conversation with me. We chatted a little bit after. And she said, You know, I just, I’m so grateful that I can share hope with women in the midst of the pain because I was there. And I’m on the other side now. So I hope that that is what you’ve come out of this. Sharing the pain in keeping that hope, protect that hope. That’s what God wants for us. He is the God of hope has a talks about it believe that’s Romans 15. I was looking at it the other day, I’ll reference that that verse in the show notes. So in case I’m wrong, whatever the whatever the Scripture is, alright. Well, thanks so much for joining me. God bless you pray for you and your marriage. We’ll talk next Tuesday.

42:30
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

42:51
Hey, so next week, I’m going to be talking a solo show about how to find the love of your life. Yes, this is the strategy step by step secret. I think that really, God honors it’s just wisdom around how to find the love of your life. So obviously, if you’re married, you’ve already found that person. But if you’re not or you know, some single friends or maybe your kids or something, I’ve got just the wisdom that I think God affords in this life that you know, with his help we can employ so at least come in, listen, if you can. That’s going to be next Tuesday. God bless you. We’ll talk then