Podcast: Play in new window | Download

I have been a wife that thought sex was mostly for the man. And I had to go through a process to change that. Chris’ story is a lot like mine in that respect. Today she dives deep into why wives can get in this rut and the season she went through to get out.

What You’ll Discover:

• The journey from a reluctant wife to someone who is released in passion
• Belah’s thought process that make you go from
  • a-not wanting to make love tonight, to
  • b-being turned on and ready to go
•  The stages Chris went through to become a wife who enjoys sex for her own enjoyment
• Considering what you want your marriage to be like eventually, the advice she would give herself if she could.

Find out more about Chris Taylor at forgivenwife.com

Resources:

• Episode 18 & 19
  • Don’t Let The Past Destroy Your Intimacy with Chris Taylor
  • Why A Feminist Serves Her Husband In Intimacy with Chris Taylor
• Marriagebed Forums

Tweetables:

• Because he was hurting he was unable to see my emotional needs.
• Even if I don’t physically feel in the mood, I know that when we’re done I’m going to feel very emotionally and physically connected to my husband.
• When you feel more emotionally connected to our spouses, you naturally want to make love to him.
• I wish I had known that sex was such an emotional experience for my husband.

 

---

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:18
Hi, there, thank you for joining, taking the time out of your day to spend time with me. And my guest, we are talking about sexual intimacy, specifically about the issue that far too many marriages are experiencing where the wife and I have been in her shoes, so no judgment, but the wife feels like sex is for him. It’s not for her enjoyment. It’s not to fill her up emotionally or even physically her needs. But no, it’s just for his physical desires to be met. And I’ve been there like I said, this is not an easy thing for us wives to understand. So I’ve put brought in Chris Taylor, she’s got a wonderful story she’s been on before, I hope that you’ll go back and listen to her other episodes because they’re powerful, even life changing. But today’s episode is really to understand what it means to enjoy sex for you, to desire it, to crave it, to enjoy sex as a wife in your marriage. So yeah, let’s go ahead and dive in

1:48
Alright, well, welcome back delight your marriage listener, I am happy that you’re here with me. I have a wonderful guest on Chris Taylor. Welcome, Chris. I belah how are you? Doing great. Doing great. I’m, I’ve been really looking forward to this conversation since our last one, which was, gosh, like 80 episodes ago, 90 episodes ago, just about and I will actually have our last episode on the show notes so that anyone can listen to Chris’s insights, the first time that she was on. Really wonderful. In fact, I had some listeners reach out to me, I meant to tell you this, Chris, that said that literally your episode change their marriage, like bar none. Like that was the thing. She was crying as she was listening to your episode. So it just, it’s powerful. So yes, listener, you want to go back and listen to Chris.

2:41
Fortunately, I was not crying. So? Yes. Although I certainly have shed a lot of tears had my journey, but they are. I’ve ended up in a good place. So. Yeah,

2:55
yeah. Well, and that was, I mean, that’s what I wanted to kind of circle back and talk about, because I had remembered from our first conversation. Yes, it’s Episode 18, and episode 19. So listener can go back and listen to that. But our first conversation, you know, it seemed like you began to really enjoy sex for you. And that was really a change. And so what I want to really focus in on this conversation is really to understand from your story, but also, you know, even prescriptive of how a reluctant wife, because this is a show mostly for wives can go to reluctant to released in passion to actually enjoy and be willing to receive pleasure in sexual intimacy. So So yeah, that’s kind of where I wanted to go today. Which you kind of just give us a little bit of background, how you thought about sex, maybe early on in your marriage, and, and kind of slowly what that trans transformation looked like, and to where it is now? Well,

4:07
I came to the marriage with a lot of sexual baggage. And I’m sure and I know that was a factor in all of that. But, you know, early, very earlier, early in our marriage, I enjoyed sex well enough. But I always have this sense that it was really mostly for my husband. Yeah, I certainly had feelings of sexual desire. And I had, you know, experienced sexual pleasure. But sex was something that we did when my husband wanted it. I remember very few times where I was the one who initiated in sex was really mostly for my husband. And then, you know, life happens. We had kids. We had money problems, you know, one thing after another and life got in the way of all that, you know, fun honeymoon, excitement, and I live life very emotionally. And every little thing that my husband said or did, rather than thinking, I wonder what he’s going through. My response was, how dare he hurt me. And I was, I was carrying around not only the baggage I brought into the marriage, but all sorts of stuff that I thought he piled on to our marriage. But really, it was just because I chose to perceive it in a certain way. And, and I’ve experienced everything so emotionally. And for me, like for many women, it is easier to I want sex more, when I’m feeling emotionally connected to my husband. And when I was feeling hurt, I was feeling emotionally disconnected. And of course, because men often feel emotionally connected most through sex, we were kind of at this, you know, there was this impasse. And so we went for years, and sex was the only one well, trying to think how to say this. It was very hard for me to feel emotionally connected to my husband for sex, I resented his sex drive, I resented my own sex drive, because it made me feel like I was caving in to what my husband was wanting. And it was just this ongoing power struggle. And when I, when I did have sex, I felt like I was caving in and losing and giving up some of my power. And, and he was just getting so hurt, because I would lie there and think, Well, fine, I’ll have sex, but I’m not going to enjoy it. And you know, I was kind of shooting myself in the foot with with that. But yeah, you know, so there, he was craving emotional connection, and getting a wife that was lying there, you know, pretty much like a dead fish or doing her grocery list in her head. And so we, you know, many years like, like this, and there were times when he would talk to me and tell me just how much he was hurting. And I kind of dismissed it all. But I knew that sex was an issue in our marriage, I knew that something needed to change, I did not think I was wrong for what I was doing. But I did realize that it was a problem. And in 2010, he had gone to church, and I who was refusing to do anything that he wanted to stay at home, and refuse to go with him. And I got on CNN online, and there was a little article about Christians having good sex. And I thought, Hmm, well, if, if I can sell you see something on a Christian site that says that he’s wrong to treat me the way he does, and that I shouldn’t have to have sex all the time, then then he’ll believe it. So I looked at it and everything changed. I saw I you know, I ended up at the marriage bed forums, and I was on a discussion thread that were people were talking about how much they emotionally hurt, being deprived of sexual intimacy in their marriages. And just I remember sitting there sobbing and sobbing and sobbing, because I had never thought of it as an emotional issue for my husband. And so things began to change because I made a decision. And it was kind of interesting. All through our marriage, I had thought of sex as something for him.

8:47
And for the next two years, after I realized what a problem we had, I still looked at sex. As for him, I made changes, I, my whole heart had changed. And I developed a sense of compassion for my husband. But for the next two years, all of my sexual efforts were still because I knew he needed it. And because I knew he needed that emotional connection, and because I felt so bad, and I was trying to make up for all the years I had hurt him. And so even after I began to make huge changes, it was still for him. And in so that’s sort of, you know, the long version of how I how I got to the point of being ready to look at sex as something for me.

9:43
And I kind of want to just dig into what you said already is, first of all, and you talk about this even more fully on the other episode, so I really encourage listeners to go and really dive this deeper into this because there’s just Chris you, you’re such a deep thinker and you really am analyze things. I love that. But just to kind of summarize, you know, there was a lot of distance between you all you felt like sex was for him, you shouldn’t have to have sex all the time, there was a lot of this, just just hating that, that he expected out of you. And it felt like he wasn’t caring about you. He was just caring about sex and all this kind of thing. And then kind of the shift happened where you started to understand that this is his heart, we’re talking about not just his penis.

10:31
Exactly. And it was about my heart. And not just my vagina.

10:36
Yeah. Oh, very good. Once I’m

10:39
realized that I needed to shift my attention upward into the heart area, everything changed.

10:46
Interesting. Yes. Very good. Okay. So. So yes, so then it became this, you know, really mastering how to get sexually oriented again, for your husband’s benefit. And then, kind of the second stage of understanding that sex is not just for him. And I guess what did that what what is that transition? What, what did it become?

11:16
Well, you know, it’s kind of interesting, because I certainly was not ever pursuing that. When I started to make changes I, all I could think of is I’m going to change things because it’s been hurting him. It never occurred to me. And I want it for me, too. And I think that there were several different things that happened. And it just sort of the point where I am now where I look at sex as a very connective and emotional experience, even when it seems to be just a physical thing. There’s this context of so much emotional connection. And I think I got to that, and just one step after another. And I think part of it was that for the first two years after I began making changes, the big effect of that was it removed this huge source of tension from our marriage, we everything that had been an issue for me, in terms of he’s hurting my feelings and all that. I realized, looking back that almost all of it was because he had been hurting. And in his hurt, he was not able to see my needs, just like in my heart, I wasn’t able to see his. And as his needs, his emotional needs, began to be addressed. He began to feel loved, and cherished, and emotionally connected. And that tension in our marriage just disappeared. And I’d say that took about the worst of it was in the first six months. But the first year, I think, was really it was really difficult. But by the end of that year, we had stopped arguing we had started laughing again. So our relationship emotionally from from my point of view, was exactly where I needed it to be. And at that point, I began to enjoy his sexual advances, it was still sex was for him. But I was a, an equal participant. You know, so many people have written about men’s sexuality and women’s sexuality. And one of the things that sticks with me a lot is that women’s sexuality is often responsive, rather than active. And so, you know, so many men will talk about, I just want my wife to desire me, I want her to initiate yet many women are not, that’s not the way our sexuality works. We respond to His desire, rather than expressing our own. And so even things like, you know, sending teasing texts to a husband and getting him all worked up. So at the end of the day, he pounces on you. When we initiate when we’re sending texts like that, and we’re getting him to act. Yeah, we’re, we’re still being responsive, even though we’ve kind of gotten it started in our own way. So, you know, I think, once I started to enjoy it, then I think the next couple years, it was it was very nice and very mutual. But I still wasn’t entirely thinking about myself as sexes for me, too. I looked at sex. As for my husband, I was able to recognize how good sex was for our relationship and for marriage. But really, I think it’s been probably in the last year and a half that I’ve kind of gotten to this point of, I want it to and it’s, it’s, it’s not just this physical, you know, I’m horny all the time. Menopause hormones do get rather interesting. Hey, but it’s very much you know, understanding that I am an equal partner in the marriage bed, and that it is there for me as well. And I think about, you know, King David going into Bathsheba to comfort her sexually. And, you know, we look at that, and I remember so much of my marriage, I would think King David went into Bathsheba to comfort her for the loss of her son and I’m thinking, what a scumbag, you know, King David, he wasn’t. He can’t even set aside his own. Ready physical need. He’s got a winner when she’s mourning her son. And and now I get it. Now, I thought that was that that can be such an emotional comfort. And

16:09
I’ve been writing a lot recently about sex is an emotional need for both men and women. And I had a woman email the other day telling me that that was really turning her off, that I was portraying her husband as a beast. Because really, I you know, I gave birth to his kids, I cook the meals, I do all the laundry. Yet the only thing that counts is sex. Well, the truth is that for many men, well, it’s not the only thing that counts. It’s the only thing. It’s the thing that counts most. Yeah. And it’s such an emotional thing and Paul Byerly at the generous husband wrote a post a couple weeks ago about sex as an emotional need for husbands. And one of the things he said was, it’s so manly to be able to say I have this physical need, and it’s a biological need. But he said, sometimes it’s really about what our hearts want. And it’s somehow it’s become uncool for a man to acknowledge an emotional need. And so men felt Yeah, physical need. Yep. So I, you know, I get criticized for talking about the husbands emotional need. But I think that we have to understand that that’s there for him. And that’s exactly what it is that many of us women need in order to respond to, when I realize that sex is an emotional thing for my husband, when I want to emotionally connect with him. Now, I really, really understand how much sex can make that happen. Yeah.

17:52
And it’s interesting that I, you know, that you mentioned about sexuality is often responsive, because, for me, my way of responding to my husband’s sexual desire, because it’s a pretty consistent thing is to be active in seducing him, because that also turns that makes me excited and ready when I am taking an active role in that. But it is it is still responding to his desire, because I know that is is something that is, like you said very much tied into his heart. I mean, that’s just so connected to it. But I think the thing I want to really dive into, is ask you about when a wife is listening to this and saying, Yes, I hear you with that Bathsheba and David story. I think he, you know, was completely off base. If he knew anything about women, he would know she needed a hug. Not penetration. I mean, how does how do you talk to her the woman that’s like, Absolutely not. That wouldn’t comfort me at all. I would feel Yeah. Defiled, like not even respected.

19:04
Well, you know, I, I struggled because I absolutely was the woman who just was offended. Yeah, what he did yet here I am. And I think some of it is because I spent several years really committing myself to being sexually available for my husband sake. I myself began to experience that emotional connection simply as a byproduct of him be feeling so loved at that time. And so, you know, after, you know, many, many sexual experiences over time, all of a sudden that just, even if I’m not physically in the mood, I know that if I go to bed with my husband, when we’re done, I am going to feel very loved and emotionally connected to him. And sometimes, sometimes I even think of, you know, I won’t have a physical order But I will have what I think of as an emotional orgasm, where it’s just, I’m so caught up in the experience. And there is a release, and I don’t. It’s almost like I don’t even know if it was physical or emotional. I can’t really put my finger on it. And yeah, and I think some of it was that I I worked on sex for my husband’s sake, not expecting anything for myself, but a natural byproduct of giving and loving him. Turned it all back in to me as well. And so, you know, I think I mean, now, if I really need comfort, that’s exactly what I asked for, for my husband. Yes, I asked him for a hug. But I you know, and maybe it’s because I know that he is more emotionally present in the marriage bed than anyplace else. And that, I know that that is where I’m going to get the most vulnerable version of him. And that’s what I need for emotional connection. That’s amazing. So I think, you know, even even when women can’t think in terms of I have sexual desire, I think one of the things that helped me was to, to look at it in terms of, but I have an emotional desire. And that, yeah, that emotional desire for sex? Is what pulled me into it for me.

21:27
Mm hmm. Yeah. Now, okay, so you mentioned, you know, when we’re done, I’m going to feel connected. And I hear you, that’s sometimes you know, in, in my, in my heart of hearts, I’m like, I’ll even have this conversation with God like, God, I don’t want to do this, I want to read my book and go to sleep. But I hear your science. Right. But it but in those times, you know, I have kind of an internal clock that I know, you know, I it’s, it’s it needs to happen on a consistent, so if we’ve missed a day or two, where I know things are not where they need to be. It’s time to do this. It’s time to so every now and then. And it is not every time, but I definitely have times where I’ve got to have that conversation with God and say, Lord, I know this is important tonight, I know that I need this. So I just ask that you give me everything I need to really enjoy. And actually, that’s when the seduction piece really helps. Because then, you know, whatever new idea I have in seducing whatever silly thing I might have found to put on or whatever. That actually, you know, getting in that kind of acting like I’m, you know, the seductress actually makes me feel like a seductress. And then I’m turned on and ready to go anyway. And then it happens. So that’s kind of a thought process that, you know, maybe helpful for others. But I guess my question is, when you mentioned that when you’re done, you’re going to enjoy it. What about when a wife says, Well, I’ve tried that plenty of times. And at the end, I don’t. Why? What’s the difference between someone who is going to enjoy it by the end and someone who’s not?

23:07
You know, there’s part of me that wants to say it’s a decision. Yeah. But I think that that is a huge thing. But I don’t think that’s always the thing. There are, there are guys who are jerks. There are husbands who are simply not attentive to their wives. It you know, I think that a lot of it is a process. I mean, I started this journey six years ago, almost. And I’m still now trying to figure some of this stuff out. You know, one of the things that I’ve realized is that through almost 20 years of a habit of sex being about him, yeah, a couple things happened. One was that I didn’t even learn to recognize or speak about my own sexual desire. I didn’t know. I didn’t learn how to say, I want this in bed. I could be demanding anywhere else in our lives, but somehow in the bedroom. No. And the other thing was that I trained my husband to think of sex as for him, and he had to unlearn that as much as I had to unlearn it. So you know, one of the things I’m trying to think if I can explain this without being TMI. All right.

24:25
It’s totally up to you. I mean, we do plenty of TMI, I read

24:30
for our most of our marriage, when he’s done, we’re done. Yeah. And, yeah, I think one of the things for so many of us women, you know, we won’t be in the mood, but then we get into it and all of a sudden we’re in the mood and just as he is when we’re getting going. And so, you know, there were many times that I would get to that point, and I’m thinking really yet talk me into having sex caved in and did it. I’m just now starting to win. Now you’re done. And so one of the things that I have had to learn and my husband has as well, is that both of us, our pleasure matters, it’s not just him. And one of the changes that we’ve been working on recently is I had to be able to say, and it was not easy, I had to be able to say, when you finish, I know you want to roll over and go to sleep. Yeah, but when you finish and do that without checking with me to see if I’m done, so that hurts, and it makes me feel like I am being used as I’m a vessel for your pleasure, but you’re not a mutual vessel for mine. And so I’ve had to work on saying that to him, and it is, you know, it’s that I write about sex. I talk about sex all the time yet to my husband about that I was a little embarrassed. And I thought, okay, obviously, there’s no reason to be embarrassed about my own sexual desire. So right and something I need to work on.

26:06
And I think so many women are I feel that in my own heart to this, this anxiety, like, do I even deserve to enjoy sex? Can I mean, should I be as is a good Christian woman allowed to have sexual pleasure? You know,

26:20
well, I do know. And, you know, after rejecting my husband sexual advances for so many years, it took me a while to get past the Do I deserve this? Because I felt very much like I didn’t, like I was doing penance. And I thought, if I’m seeing sex, as anything with sex as some kind of punishment, it’s still not where it needs to be. Now, I have to say, a few months ago, we had a very bizarre experience, part of my menopause hormones is every once in a while, I get these physical urges, like, I don’t know, I suppose, like teenage boys get I don’t quite understand. And, and we had been active that afternoon. And so he was very content and wanted to go to sleep. But somehow it ramped me up. And several hours later, I said, I want more, which took a great deal of courage for me to say, and yeah, the biggest role reversal. I could imagine. He said, but I can’t, I’m not interested, you know, he’s in his 50s. Things are different than Sure. You know, I’m not, I’m not in the mood, and I can’t finish and I just feel like you’re using me and I thought, gee, how many years did I. And in Fortunately, I was able to recognize that this was really a sign of him, not having made the adjustment to thinking about me having sexual needs that might not match this, then it had always been, he had sexual desire, and I would step up to the plate. But now we were trying to do something different. And it was I think, it just threw him so much. And and I said, Do you remember how you used to feel when I would tell you that I was feeling used? Well, yeah. And they said, Well, okay, that’s how I’m feeling right now. Yeah, but this will be okay. We’ll talk. We’ll talk. Yeah. So that was that was really weird. But I was so proud of myself for having Yes. Say, I want more because I recognize my desire, which for many years, I had not. I expressed it. Yeah. And that had been suppressed for so long. Yeah, that is I said, it took six years to get to this.

28:42
Well, I’m so yeah, but I really love that you even said I’m proud of myself, because I think that as a you know, anyone listening can get that, that feeling that that you should feel proud of yourself, when you get to a space where you’re able to admit your desire, feel it, and then be willing to vulnerably talk about it. Because obviously, that’s the thing about sex is it’s incredibly vulnerable, you can be rejected, and it feels like your whole being is rejected. And you know, I love what you even mentioned a little bit before of like, feeling that comfort in sex is, you know, when your husband is most emotionally present, he’s most vulnerable. And I think that’s really wonderful. I wonder, you know, I feel like, some women may listen to this podcast and think, Okay, so I’ve got to, you know, basically I need to tell my husband all these things and let him you know, teach him, you know, like, Well, yeah, you know, turn it, you know, and there’s certain ways that you can teach things without kind of controlling a situation and that kind of thing, you know, with this kind of trying to get him to do what you want him to do. I just kind of I wonder, you know, what are the Maybe the action steps that you would give a wife and getting to this because like you said, this was a six year process. And you’re just now kind of really embodying this, enjoying sex for you and really thinking that through, you know, what are kind of the steps you think that a wife should be taking to get there?

30:18
Well, one of the things, I think, is to recognize what we want women, especially once we’re moms, we are so good at setting aside what we want for the good of others. And I don’t know, you know, how many years it was, I have three kids and how many years I want before I could sit and have a whole meal from beginning to end without having to stop and wipe somebody up or, or somebody food, how many times I was in the bathroom not alone, because a kid followed me. Women, God made us to be able to set aside our own desire so that we can raise the children. I mean, I think that’s, that’s so essential. But what happens is that then we forget to reclaim that. And we forget that we shouldn’t do that all the time for everything. And I have a new new online friend, and she and I have been emailing each other and talking about stress, and different ways of dealing with stress. And I asked her, I said, What is it that you’re doing for yourself these days? Well, nothing. By the time I get around to doing something for myself, it’s late, and I’m crabby and I just want to go to sleep. And I think some of it, I think one of the most important things that I did in this journey was to value myself. First, it was learning to value my husband as much as myself. But then I also had to learn to value my own. Everything that I wanted, I had to acknowledge that that you know if I wanted, it’s not that I go around feeling entitled and demanding. But you know, even to think I’d really like a chocolate ice cream sundae. You know, I had had to get comfortable acknowledging what I wanted. That didn’t mean I always went and pursued it. But I had such a habit of just, if it popped into my head, and there was any reason it wouldn’t work, I would just dismiss it. And I needed to kind of reach out and embrace and think about, what is it that I want for myself? Yeah, and that’s hard for women, you know, we give to everybody else, but we don’t want others to give to us. And you know, somebody’s sick? And what do we do? We want to go, you know, make a casserole and take it over and make things better for them yet if we’re the ones who are sick, and somebody wants to bring us a casserole? Oh, no, I’m fine. Right? Let’s start that. Right. I think that that just we don’t I think it’s so easy for us to not be willing to receive God’s gifts all the time. Even small things. And I think that was one of the most important things that I did was to be able to start to see not just sexually but in every way. Who am I? And what is it that I really would enjoy and honoring my own preferences? You know, if my husband say, Well, where do you want to go out to eat? How many times in our marriage? Have I just said, Well, you pick, huh? Well, I practiced having an opinion and expressing it. And so where do you want to go? And now I tell him where I would like to go? Yeah, and yeah, and acknowledging what I want instead of always having it be about what he wants. And practicing that non sexually does pay off sexually. It’s just it’s something that we’re not in the habit of doing. So I think that’s one of the action steps is to honor what we want.

33:57
Yeah. And I kind of want to jump in here and just mention a couple things that you said and underline them a little bit. Getting comfortable acknowledging what you want. I think that’s just so, so wonderful. And as a mom, myself, I’ve got a three year old and recently I’ve stumbled upon this little nugget of wisdom that I don’t even know where it came from. But since I’ve started practicing it, it’s it’s just been wonderful. So basically, my little three year old, right, this is toddlerhood, you know, extraordinary lots and lots of tantrums and whatnot. But almost, I mean, there are so many tantrums we get totally through that. They never even happen because of this one little thing is when he is expressing a desire. I tell him Oh, so we walked by the ice cream truck all the time because it parked right outside our convenient corner. Oh couldn’t Yes. Oh, we love it. Anyway, so what we do is when we walk by, he goes mom, ice cream, ice cream and I say Oh, would you like ice cream? Please, can I have ice cream? And I say, Oh, you would like ice cream. I really like that you said, Please, that was so kind. And we keep walking, I’m holding his hand. And pretty soon he’s on to the next thing. That was all I didn’t have to address it. I didn’t have to do a single thing. It was just acknowledge his desire. And so

35:19
so you can apply your lesson with a Talbert to your site life.

35:24
Right, exactly. Well, it’s funny because it’s also I’ve seen it just working other things in my in my hearts, because this has been a couple months coming now. And I’m noticing for me sometimes when I’ll have that desire, because speaking of ice cream, I’ve had some health issues that have caused me to have to take out all dairy. Can you believe it? I know. I know. Vanilla Bean natural briars, vanilla has been like my delight. You’re so good. My entire life. Yeah, it’s just a delight. But you know, what’s funny, is nowadays, when I do have that desire, and funny enough, my husband has ice cream in the fridge right now. Um, it’s, it’s really much easier, because kind of like you said, I acknowledge that desire, I kind of even sometimes let myself think about it, like, Man, I really enjoyed that, that, that has been really nice for me sometimes. And and I just get a little bit of Glee in my imagination from it. And then I move on, and then it really hasn’t turned into I don’t have this strong like, feeling of deprivation anyway. So that just like an additional that acknowledgement can provoke other things. And now I’m actually enjoying the food that I can eat much more as a result. So

36:34
when we when we get in a habit of suppressing everything that we want. Yeah, and putting everybody first before us all the time. Yeah, how can that not affect our sex lives? And, you know, I’m not advocating for women to become self centered. But, you know, it took me a long time to understand that, you know, my husband’s emotional needs and sexual needs were as valid as all of my needs. But I also needed to learn, and except that I was an equal partner with him, that it I think, just practicing, honoring the desires, even if they’re things you cannot pursue, yeah, doing that, in every area of our lives, can end up helping us when it comes to being able to recognize what we want in bed, even if it’s no, we’re not finished yet, because I need I need a little more. That’s an important thing. And, you know, the other thing that I think in terms of an action step is, and I was kind of hard to explain it as an action step, but to be vulnerable. And I think that was really the key that changed for me is when I knew that I could be vulnerable with my husband, then I was able to embrace my sexuality and our sex life. But, you know, I’d spent so many years protecting myself emotionally, not fully being willing to trust my husband. Yeah. And in order to fully enjoy the gift of the marriage bed. I had to make myself as vulnerable as I wanted my husband to be with me. And, you know, women, so many of us have control issues, and we don’t want to let go of control. We don’t want to be vulnerable. And we have trust problems. Yeah. And I get that because it’s, it’s a daily struggle for me. Yeah. But that is one of the big things to be fully present in the marriage bed, is to knock down all the walls you have between you and your husband. And that means that we’re going to be vulnerable. And it’s hard. But if you have a good bold husband, it is so worth it.

39:01
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s interesting, I had a really great discussion with Mona Shriver on this episode 110 and 111. But she specifically talks about trust, because she experienced infidelity in her marriage. So how can you trust someone after that has happened? You know, but there’s so many things, even if you haven’t experienced that in your marriage. There’s so many reasons we give ourselves to not trust our spouse, almost to the degree that we feel like he’s betrayed us. And maybe there’s been pornography or things that that that feeling is very, very alive. And you know, but I just, I would encourage considering that that that conversation about trust because what you’re saying, you know, being vulnerable, actually trusting your husband is so key and it goes back to what you said from the very beginning, is when you are more emotionally connected to your husband. You want to enjoy sex with him, right? A natural byproduct. That’s the way God made us that we that I kind of think this is kind of a little side of a philosophy I’m working on. But I kind of think that the God made our sexualities very intentionally. And so women really need to feel good about themselves to have sex, like that’s a big piece of their ability to get turned on is feeling good about themselves. And then, you know, men don’t necessarily need that. But they desire sex, so it’s so strongly. So I kind of feel like God made that intentionally because for a woman to enjoy sex, her life has kind of got so both, you know, he’s got to learn what she needs, she’s gonna learn what he needs. And together, they’re making the life the best that God kind of wants them to be. So I don’t know if that makes any sense. I didn’t. Don’t know if I get I find that very well does that kind of makes me I think

40:52
there are just so many times when I just catch a glimpse of something where I realize how our differences are designed by God to draw us to each other. And, and I need that emotional connection from my husband. And I know that sex is the way I get that. And then eventually, I start to you know, I associated sex with that. And now it’s not just for an emotional thing, although it really is about pursuing that intimacy and oneness. And, you know, when I asked my husband, wife, here’s another TMI last night, he, we were getting ready for bed. And, um, you know, nothing sexual was going to happen in. But I was lying in bed, not wearing anything. And I apparently struck a pose, I didn’t even realize that I did, oh, and I was just, you know, I don’t know, I stretched or something. And whatever he was saying he stopped. It’s like all the blood rush from his head. And he just, he couldn’t remember what he was doing. And it is simple. So let’s talk about that. I said, What was that about? Is that just a physiological response? And he said, Well, no, it’s not just a physiological response. It’s just, he’s he said, I just see you. And that reminds me of what it’s like to be part of you. And I can’t separate the physical desire from the emotional desire anymore. I thought, okay. All those years, that was what I wanted. And now, you know, we’ve both worked on giving being givers and not just separators. And, and there it is what I always wanted.

42:40
That is so wonderful. It was

42:42
it was a it was a lovely moment that just yeah, you know, years ago, I never would have let him see me naked. And the thought of doing any, you know, everything was calculated in terms of the sexual cost, if I stretch this way, will highlight my breasts in a way that will make you think I want sex? Nope, I better not go there. Everything was about sexual cost. And now it just so infused in everything I do. I don’t even think about it anymore. And then, you know, I think maybe that’s one of the other action steps is to try to live sexually and to be thinking about that all the time. You know, I think living sexually is such an important thing. And it’s such a stretch, you know, when we live so much of our lives as employees or as moms, there’s so much time that we have to just suppress anything sexual. But one of the things that I found and I know this is a luxury because we only have one of our three kids still living with us and he’s an adult and he’s gone a lot you know, we have the we really have the privilege of being able to do constant sexual teasing, if we want to and just being able to think in you know, not react negatively to sexual innuendos. Guys have an ability to take everything and make it sound like it’s about sex. And women have the ability to you know, roll their eyes and, and dismiss that. You don’t think you’re being sexually is always taking advantage of opportunities to tease and to acknowledge that sexual aspect of our relationship. Because marriage sex is the one thing that we that is biblically okay with a spouse and not with any anybody else. You know, you can buy a house with somebody, you can pay bills with somebody else. And it’s not cheating. But sex is the one thing that is only to be within the bounds of marriage and to pretend that it is something or to act like it’s something other than a sexual relationship, diminishes this wonderful gift that God gave us to feel good And, and united with each other. So, you know, yeah, it’s, you know, I’ve worked really hard to try to get to a point now, where I am able to acknowledge my desires to express them. And I would say that for the first time, in our marriage, it is completely mutual. And sex is just as much about me as it is about my husband. But it all started with just trying to, you know, remove the tension from our marriage, and then every step of growth, I think, okay, I figured that thing out. Now, what’s the one thing that’s next, and I think that being vulnerable, and honoring my own preferences, those are so important in being able to make this most recent step to where I am.

45:55
I love that, I love that. And I think this work, this podcast together that we’ve just created, it’s just going to help women have a piece, I mean, almost almost like a vision of where to aspire, regardless of where you are, right now, whether you’re still in that kind of resenting mode of feeling like, you know, why did why is this all about him? And, you know, why do I have to, you know, do this all the time, and that kind of thing. Or if you’re, you know, somewhere else on the journey that, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re wanting to enjoy yourself more sexually, I think that this gives a great vision about it, because it’s interesting, Chris, you know, your kids are older now, you have this space. You know, soon maybe empty nesters completely arms. But, but I mean, how many marriages fall apart at that particular part, that point where there’s really no more distractions, it’s just you and your spouse. So you either figure it out, or you decide, well, we’ve kind of been miserable the last 1015 years. So I, you know, if it’s not for the kids anymore, what are we doing here? And I think, you know, I almost feel like, you know, I’ve got itty bitty toddlers going on right now. So when we get to that place, we’ve got plenty of years left to have distraction, right. But eventually, we’re going to get to a place where there’s not distraction. And so I think any woman listening can think about, well, what what do I want, when I get to that place? Do I want a space where I enjoy pleasure, where I enjoy teasing? Where I like to, you know, be a seductress with my husband, where I like to have little ideas and make it fun and playful. I mean, what do you want your marriage eventually to look like? And then, you know, applying the things that you talked about Chris, I think are very actionable and helpful. I guess my last kind of, you know, ask is that, you know, if you could talk to your self, let’s say, when you were still at the stage of, of doing it for him, right? Kind of what is there any kind of advice that you would give to yourself in that place?

48:18
Um, you know, I’ve thought about that, and I don’t really know, you know, everything that I have learned, has been about taking time and patience. It may be, you know, at a point where I was viewing success for him. I think, when I think about my self, early in our marriage, the one thing I really wish I had understood was the role of sex and emotional connection. For men. I had no idea that that was such an emotional experience for my husband. And that is the one thing I wish I’d known for years, because I really didn’t get it. But even once I started making changes, I think that a lot of it is simply to let the processes unfold. And I think, you know, sometimes I hear from, from women who just want to get to this point, and they want to rush it. And, you know, sometimes you just have to go through all of these other things. And in the process of me, working on doing and having sex for my husband, engaged my heart in a in centering on him rather than on me. And that was a really important process for my my heart to go through and, and then as we, you know, he started to work on being more giving. I think all of those things together contributed to the intimacy that now helps us sexually. So I think, you know, sometimes we rush but I think if we just are constantly working on what’s right in front of us, and then moving on to the next thing, I think, you know, we can all get there.

50:00
Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that. Moving on just the next right thing. Just focus on the next right thing for you. Right, right. And

50:10
you know, I hear from a lot of husbands who are frustrated. And you know, they say, Well, my Yeah, my wife is making progress. She’s way better than she was a year ago. But she’s moving so slowly. And sometimes we just have to let God take the time in order to get us there. And, you know, patience is not my virtue. But sometimes, that’s exactly what we need. You know, I don’t know, I wish there were a magic formula, I really wish that he you know, here are three concrete steps. And if you do them 123, bingo, you’re going to be at this point, and you just have to try things and see what works and know that even if you’re not there yet, if you’re still in, I can’t believe King David actually did that to Bathsheba. Right, acknowledge, you know, you’re not just acknowledging your desires acknowledge this is what my feeling is. But maybe my feeling isn’t truth.

51:09
Yeah, you know, it makes me think about something I like. When I do brainstorming sessions, you know, with my work and whatnot, I like to talk about, the first idea is probably not the final idea. But if you don’t do that first idea, you won’t get the second or the third, or the fourth, or the fifth, or the sixth to finally get to that wonderful idea. I think it’s the same thing that you have to pick up on those little tiny things, like maybe acknowledging your desire for sleep instead of sex is the first step to eventually getting to a place where you’re desiring sex in a real authentic way.

51:47
Yes, I think so. Although, that’s, you know, I always said, I just, I just want to sleep. I just want to leave. But I was, that was said more as a way of justifying to my husband why I didn’t want to do what he wanted me to do. You’re right, if that wasn’t

52:03
a good example, if so, right. Because, yeah, because that’s because I, as a woman, you really, a lot of times have to will yourself, like be that response, you kind of have to do it before you your heart get before you feel it,

52:18
right. A lot of times, act your way into the

52:20
feeling. But oh, that’s I like that act your way into the field at

52:24
the same time. As much as I would say, I just need to sleep as a justification for why I’m not doing what you want me to do. Yeah, I don’t think that I did a good job to myself as of honoring the fact that I was had every reason to be tired. I was working full time, I had three little kids. I was doing the housework. I was tired, and I deserve sleep. And at no point did I think to tell myself, you really deserve some rest. So I think even there that was not honoring my desires, it was using what I somehow sensed I needed just to get my husband off my back. Yeah. But I was not really honoring, honoring what I needed. Would have been, it was really more about what I do for myself, and what I’m telling to myself and when I’m talking to someone else. Yeah. So I think it is an example that works even though there’s this.

53:22
Yeah, I see what you’re saying. There. Yeah, there’s a lot of layers to it. So always are a lot of layers. There always are. Yeah. Well, Chris, okay, so So tell us where we can find you online. You’ve got an awesome website. And where can people follow you?

53:37
I am at forgiven wife.com, my blog, the forgiven wife. And I’m, you know, there are links on there for my Twitter page, and you know, Twitter and Facebook pages, and I write for wives about trying to get past that resistance to sex that many of us have experienced, and in order to reclaim our marriages and to reach that intimacy that we all need in our lives.

54:07
That’s awesome. Okay, well, Chris, this has just been a wonderful conversation. I love hearing from you. I think you’ve got such depth of insight and thought around everything that you say. And clearly, that’s a writer’s mind. I love it. So thank you. Thanks for everything.

54:23
Well, thank you so much for having me.

54:29
Yes, and I think that we can absolutely take from Chris’s story, so much wonderful insight, but I think principally if you are, wherever you are on your journey, I think you have gained hopefully some extra encouragement. You know, that’s part of the reason I do these episodes every single week, because I think myself as a wife, I need encouragement to do this journey. I can’t do it by myself. And I think you’re listening to this podcast. because you agree that this is a journey and we need the inspiration, we need the the God inspired, extra push to go for it. And a lot of that sometimes means in the marriage bed that we need that inspiration to say, Yeah, I’m going to go do something that might feel a little silly, or something that I might not actually be in the mood for when I start, but I’ll get there by the end. So whatever it is for you, I just want to say take the encouragement, go and do what you know is good for your marriage and honors God in the process. That bless you. I love you. I will be talking to you next Tuesday. Bye.

55:41
Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes, as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion