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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Sheila Wray Gregoire—speaker, author, and blogger behind tolovehonorandvacuum. On this episode, she gives us such a wonderful insight about how different a man and a woman can be when it comes to sex, or wanting sex, that is. Generally, she discusses how women react to certain things men do, and vice versa. As someone who has gone through some difficult times in her married life, she offers great advice for wives to stop feeling used or rejected! She does not only share about how a woman thinks, but she also digs into why our husbands could probably lose interest in sex when he becomes engrossed in pornography. Listen in and be inspired! It’s an episode filled with insights you wouldn’t want to miss!

Scripture/Quote:

• “Men need to make love in order to feel loved. Women need to feel loved in order to make love.” -Anonymous
• The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. Psalm 34:18
• “There are times when I’ve just thought about, on my worst day, just, you know, leaving our house and going some place. Like checking into a hotel and just being in a quiet room by myself. Just sitting in a quiet air-conditioned room, sitting down, eating my lunch with no one touching me, drinking a Diet Sprite, by myself.” -Tinay Fey’s character, “Date Night”
• Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Hebrews 12:1
• Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:21

You’ll Discover:

• What a woman thinks about sex versus what a man thinks about sex
• How women feel toward sex in general
• How bringing too much emotional baggage into a marriage is really not a good idea
• Tips and advice on how to let go of the baggage and move on happily
• Why sex is an important part of marriage—it’s not optional!
• What’s keeping us from finding our balance
• How pornography affects your husband’s libido

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• 16 Personalities – Free personality tests online
• TED talks
• Date Night movie
• To Love, Honor, and Vacuum: When You Feel Like a Maid Than a Wife by Sheila Wray Gregoire, and the website of the same name here.
• The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex: (And You Thought Bad Girls Had All the Fun) by Sheila Wray Gregoire
• DYM Ep39: Should Children Masturbate? with Luke Gilkerson and host Belah Rose

Tweetables:

• The more you say, “I would be happy if only he . . .,” the more you put your happiness in his hands; it’s no longer in your own.
• We need to make sure we’re still learning something new, that we have some intellectual stimulation. Even in the baby years. Keep reading a book, or watch a TED talk while nursing—something to make you feel like you’re more than just a mother.
• There are things that are hindering us that are not necessarily sin.
• Some people think sex is shallow. And it shouldn’t be. And if we put enough emphasis on sex being shallow, I think we rob ourselves of a very rich life.
• No matter what kind of brokenness people have, marriage can be one of the most healing tools that God can use.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

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Transcript

0:00
to your marriage episode 46. Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, the show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:21
Hello, and welcome. This is belah rose, and you are listening to the delight your marriage podcast, where I interview a wife or intimacy expert on what it takes to have a thriving, wonderful marriage. Now today, you get both. A lot of these overlap. They’re an expert and they’re a wife. But she like Greg Walker is going to give us some amazing insights specifically about what a woman needs and what a man needs in this thing called marriage. And she shares really some good tips not only about getting out of maybe a rut that you’re in, but also understanding how we can have sex with our whole being not just the physical, so it’s really good stuff. Now before we dive in, I want to mention if you have not yet listened to the webinar, I did recently. It’s called How to make him wild for you the five secrets to receive love and passion in God’s plan. I want to make sure you get it. So would you go to delight your marriage.com/webinar and I will send it to you as soon as possible and listen into this wonderful interview with Sheila. Okay, well welcome back to light your marriage listener. This is belah rose, and I’m really excited to have Sheila Greg voir. And Sheila, I forgot to ask you before we started, I’ve always pronounced her name Gregoire. Is that correct? Yeah, that’s actually really good. Most people get it totally wrong. But that’s that’s very good. Okay, very cool. Well, that makes me happy. Okay, well, welcome, Sheila. I’m so excited that you’re here. How are you today? I’m doing great. And I’m so excited to share with your audience too. Oh, good. Good. Well, could you go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit about your family and your day to day life for anyone who doesn’t know you already? Sure. Well, I have been married for 23 years to my husband, Keith. And we’ve been happily married for about 18. So we’re a little bit rough. We’ve raised two daughters, one of them is getting married, and three weeks. So I’m a little bit under the gun, and I’m having nightmares of all the things I’m forgetting to do. Oh, my gosh. But that’s exciting. And we’ll be empty nesters next year. So we’re getting used to that idea as well. But I’ve been writing and blogging for about 16 years. And my ninth book is coming out in August 9 thoughts that will change your marriage. But I think what I’m most known for is writing about marriage and sex, because that’s the fun part. So it is the fun part. It’s the stuff that we don’t talk about, but need to be and I just love I definitely consider you a pioneer in this space. And I just I’m so grateful that you’re with us. So really cool. How old is your daughter? Did you say? My daughter is getting married? She’s only 20. Yeah, so Wow. Yeah, a little young, but they’re really good together. And they’re both they’re both going to be in school forever. So there’s no point waiting till schools done. So. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, with you being her mother, I’m sure she’s gotten plenty of tips and advice. And oh, that’s really cool. Okay, cool. Well, could you share a little bit about you and your husband’s personalities? Well, that’s funny, you should, because I did a post on that this morning. If you anyone knows the Myers Briggs, I’m an EMT j which means that I’m an extrovert. I’m a creative thinker. I’m very black and white. I make decisions quickly. Yes. Hitler was an INTJ. Oh, no. But so it was really Churchill. So that’s okay. You know, very much the decision makers, the leaders, my husband is more of a traditionalist, He’s, um, he’s more of the administrator, the loyal, get stuff done person. And so usually when we plan because I’ve got a million ideas of a million different things that I want to do, and he’s thinking, if it isn’t broken, why try to fix it, so? Yes, Mm hmm. That’s really funny that you say that, that I actually am a huge fan of the Myers Briggs or any any personality test, honestly. Right? Do you just love all personality tests? I do. And you know, my daughter, the one is getting married is also an INTJ and my husband’s and ESF j and then our youngest Isn’t ESFPs so she’s your little people pleaser? Oh my gosh, you know, and she just is so funny because she’s so opposite from the rest of us, but a lot of fun.

5:11
Oh, yeah. Well, anyone who hasn’t heard of the Myers Briggs or specifically about this, there’s a great website called 16 personalities the number one six personalities calm. I’ll have it linked up on the show notes so people can find out what they are. But I just looked you up. Yes, you are the commander bold, imaginative and strong willed leaders. Yes. That’s awesome. Yeah, I’m, I’m close to you. I’m an F in FJ, which. charismatic and inspiring leaders able to mesmerize their listeners. So there you go. Those who start cults are most likely to be ENFP. Oh, scary, right. You know a lot about this. That’s awesome. My mom did this for a living. She’s an INFJ, too. So yeah. Oh, very cool. Okay, well, we, we could go back and forth on this all day. That’s awesome. But um, tell me, if you would, you know, this delight, your marriage is all about inspiring and empowering marriages to have really great intimacy. So could you share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years for your marriage? Um, well, one thing that I always tell people that they need to understand is that men make love in order to feel loved. Women need to feel loved in order to make love. That is so so good. Well, and I yeah, I mean, it’s something we’re gonna unpack shortly, I’m sure quite a bit more. But yeah, I love that. I think so often as women, we feel the opposite. We feel like I need to, I need to feel loved. I need to feel cherished in order for it to even happen. And the guy’s like, well, I don’t feel loved until we do. Yeah. So it sounds like a recipe for disaster, doesn’t it? But it doesn’t work. It can work. Yeah. Well, I hope that you’ll be talking about that in your in your story. So it could you you mentioned in the very beginning, you’ve been married 23 years, but happily married? What did you say? 18? Okay, so tell us could you share that difficult season or struggle in your marriage? Well, we had a whole lot of issues when we first got married, and one of them was I came into marriage with so much baggage. You know, my parents split when I was very young, I had a lot of rejection issues with my dad and with my stepfather later on, and with a lot of bad relationships as a teenager. And then when we were engaged, my husband actually broke off the engagement. And we got we got back together a few months later, but that really threw me too. So when we did get married, a trust was just a huge issue for me, and I didn’t know it was going to be it wasn’t like I got married, knowing that I was going to put up all these walls, you know, usually we don’t know how we’re gonna read, right. But when we, when I did get married, I did put up a lot of walls. And that made, you know, I made sex difficult, it make communication difficult. And so we spent the first few years of our marriage hurting each other and feeling hurt, without understanding how the other person was feeling. You know, it seemed like, every time he wanted to make love, I experienced that as rejection because it meant he only wanted me for what I could do for him. And yet, every time I did, he experienced that as rejection. And so we both felt like the other person didn’t love us, even though we both really did love each other. So we just weren’t connecting at all. And it took a couple of years to get over that. And to realize that it wasn’t there wasn’t any point in wallowing about it and and feeling, you know, why doesn’t he really love me? Why doesn’t he meet my needs? Eventually, you need to take the first step and start doing what is in your power to make the marriage better. And we both kind of came to that the same time. And ironically, having kids helped us a lot, you know, people it takes some part for us. I think it brought us together because it gave us something else to concentrate on and focus on and you know, and even though we were exhausted in those years, we did have a lot of fun. So I think that can I ask just to kind of pull out some of the things you talked about already. You said specifically, you were hurting. You felt rejected when he would make advances for sex. I know into most men, that will make no sense but right men probably understand what I mean. Yes. Uh huh. Could you unpack that a little bit more? Why do you think men wouldn’t understand that because to a guy if you want her it means that I love her. So obviously, if I you know, I wouldn’t want her if I didn’t love her. So to him, that’s his way of showing love. Whereas to me it felt like your love comes with strings attached. You’re only going to love me if I perform for you or something. And so it just Got into this really, this really cycle where we just go downhill and spiral downhill without really understanding how the other person was feeling.

10:10
Yeah, that is really so true. And, and it’s true, especially if a if a woman is coming into marriage with baggage, maybe from honestly just society as a whole, right? I mean, there’s just so much abuse of women all over the place. So even if your wife hasn’t specifically had, you know, abuse in her past, she easily could have internalized I mean, don’t you think that’s like a easy thing for a wife to kind of have in her thoughts is like, he just wants me for sex. Yeah. And I think that our culture objectifies women so much. We see it in the NOG Rafi industry, especially, you know, and if he’s been involved in porn at all, she she’s gonna internalize that and experience any overtures he makes as rejection as well. You know, in a lot of couples, it may not be right when they get married, that this happens. It might be right when a baby comes, you know, for us. But I know a lot of couples where the honeymoon periods great, but then yeah, baby comes they get into this cycle. And why do you think that happens when the baby comes? Well, I think there’s a lot of reasons. One of them is just playing pro bono. For women after the baby’s born, her desire for sex goes way down. Because you’re nursing, your body can be kicked back in yet plus, darn exhausted. Yeah, yeah, getting any sleep. And you are totally consumed with this little tiny bundle that is attached to you constantly. At the same time he, even if he loves that baby dearly, starts to wonder if you’re still a family unit, or if it’s just the mom and the baby. And so he needs to feel like he’s still mean something. So he might be pushing more for sex at the same time. And she’s like, I can’t do what I already have to do. Don’t add something else to my to do list. And so then they get Yeah, well, it’s interesting. You bring that up because my youngest is five months old, so are just turned six months old. So yeah, I hear that. That’s actually really, really true. And I would even add to that list. The the wife is still not even in her own feeling good in her own skin yet. I don’t think yeah, by nose. Yeah, body image is huge. But yeah, yeah. Okay. Wait, what it was, oh, Bobby. Yeah. Oh, took me a while to get that pun actually. That’s really funny. Yes, exactly. No, that’s really good. So you guys had kids, and that helped you actually focus on something else? You know, if someone’s in that rut, and a marriage is in that rut that you’re talking about where both of you are feeling rejected back and forth? I mean, what are some tips you can give them? The first one I would say is stop pointing your finger at your spouse. I think it’s true, especially for women. We start feeling rejected, we start feeling unloved, we start feeling heartbroken. And you know, there’s all these verses in scripture about how God is close to the brokenhearted, and how can we care about the brokenhearted? And so we start to feel like God is on our side. You know? That’s me feel so sorry for his poor, broken daughter. And when we pour this heartbreak out to God, we pour this heartbreak out to all of our friends. And it reinforces this idea that our husband doesn’t love us. Yeah. And yet, I don’t think that that is really the way that God looks at your marriage. My two daughters, as I said before, are older now they’re 20 and 18. I remember the time between the ages of eight and 12. were horrible. You know, because the older one had gone through puberty, the younger one hadn’t yet. And so they were constantly clashing. And I know how I felt as a mother. When my two daughters were clashing. It hurts me, because I love both of them. And they’re they are in their clashing. So I really don’t think that God is up there in heaven, you know, looking at you as you’re brokenhearted, and wanting to stroke your hair and say that’s okay. I know, he’s a really mean person. I think he was looking at you and saying, I love you. But I love your husband too. And I just want you to love each other. You know, and instead, we tend to wallow and we tend to retreat into ourselves and we don’t see that there are actually things that we can do to make our marriage better. Instead, we say things to ourselves, like, I would be happy if only he would give me some time to myself, I would be happy and only he would figure out what I need to feel loved. I would be happy if only he would learn to put the toilet paper roll on or whatever.

14:52
Yeah, and the more you say those sorts of things to yourself, I will be happy if only he The more you put your happiness in his hands, it’s no longer in your own. And therefore, you’re helpless. You’re just waiting for him to change. And that is never going to work, especially because there are things that we can do to make our relationship better. Yeah. No, that’s great. I love that you said, if we kept on saying, I will be happy when dot dot dot, whatever that is, then the husband, the man or or, you know, the husband, the wife, whatever, they have control over your emotions. And that’s, that doesn’t make sense. Yeah. That’s not a Yeah, no, I love that. Okay, so what about the wife that is feeling totally affection starved? And, and she’s just saying, I will be happy when now what what can she do then in terms of her own? Her own being making herself feel good? Well, there’s several different things. I mean, first of all, we do need to make sure that we’re feeding ourselves, you know, apart from the marriage, right, we need to make sure that, that we have a good emotional outlet with some friends, we need to make sure that we’re still learning something, and we have some intellectual outlets, even in the baby years, you know, like, keep reading a book, or watching a TED talk while you’re nursing or, haha, yeah, something to make you feel like you are more than just a mother because you are. And there’s things that you can learn even in these times. And I think that when we keep learning when we keep engaged with friends, when we keep praying, when we keep having that relationship with God, we become more satisfied, we become richer in ourselves. And that, you know, you need to be a rich person, a complete person yourself to terms in terms of marriage, and I think that’s the first step is getting yourself in a strong place. And that includes, by the way, sleeping well, and eating well. It makes a difference. You know, I’ve got some real health issues in the last year, nothing life threatening, not at all, just pain issues I had to deal with. And it’s amazing how just changing your diet in little ways, can dramatically change your life, you know, and I never believed that before I heard people say it, and I always thought that they’re just environmental crazies or something, you know? Sure, yeah. But you actually it’s true when we stop eating so much junk. So I mean, that can that can really help. I love that. But then I think it’s also really important to say, marriage is it, you’re always in a certain balance. And that balance might be unhealthy. Like, you know, when you’re on a teeter totter at a playground, and the kids going up and down. Because and the way to go up is you push off with your feet, and then you know, the other person goes down, and you go back and forth like that. And sometimes you can be in in the balance on the teeter totter, where one person’s taking a lot more of the weight. And the you know, what happens if you’re on the bottom, and you suddenly get off? Right? Yeah, that’s either just the person on the top now it’s just gonna go flying. And there’s different ways that you can change that balance. And, you know, you need to look at your mirror, she’d say, Okay, what we’re in unhealthy balance right now. And I can either wait for them to step off and have me go flying. Or I can see how I can just make small adjustments so that we find a new status quo that is just healthier. And if you’re if you’re the kind of person, here’s something very, very minor that I mentioned on my, on my Facebook page the other day, and it makes such a huge difference. Ask for help. Like, just ask for help. If you are overwhelmed with everything that you are doing in the house, and he never helps. Sometimes he just needs to be asked really directly. I don’t know how many of you seen the movie date night? You know, with them still. And Tina Fey I love that movie. But no,

18:56
I haven’t yet. Oh, it’s a great movie. I mean, there’s some we’re okay. But okay, the message about marriage in it. I think everybody will relate to and you know how you can get into this rut, but how love is still love. And we just need to find that again. And really great. But there’s one scene where they’re, they’re talking and she’s saying, you know, I never I never daydream about leaving you. I never daydream about another man. I never daydream about that. The only thing I really daydream about is one day leaving the home. I think myself into a hotel and drinking a Diet Sprite on my own with no one touching me. That’s so funny. That is rotating. And she says, Today, I do everything for everybody. I have to get the kids in their pajamas. You know, why is that every day? It’s it’s big news. So these kids have to get in their pajamas and she has things and she’s just so tired. And he says, Well, you know, your life would be so much easier if you would just let me help. But every time I try you send me away and you never ask And I thought, you know, that’s really true. A lot of us are upset that our husbands don’t help, but we never actually asked. And so I put that on my Facebook page. And some people have some really interesting comments about how for five years they had been angry about their husband in the dishwasher, how he never put anything in the dishwasher, and they would feed him. And then one day, they said, Honey, can you put your coffee cup in the dishwasher? And he just opened the dishwasher and did it and from now on, he always puts his coffee cup in the dishwasher. It it just never occurred to him before. No, that’s so funny. And also, I think sometimes we ask, with that resentment already built up. And so then so then it becomes a big issue when it really could have started with this open ended. Honey, would you help me with this? Yeah, I love that. And I find two men, if you say, Can you help me with this? That’s often not as helpful. As you know, instead of I’m making dinner, can you help me make dinner? How about can you feel and chop the carrots? Oh, good one. Yeah. You know, like, like, give them something specific because we have this is the thing about being a multitasker is we have so many things in our head at all times. And we know everything that needs to be done. And we have this huge list. And so we see the whole picture. Men don’t work that way. And so to them, they don’t know what you want them to do. Yeah. So if we can, if we can just break it down. That’s a much more helpful method of communication. Yeah, yeah. And I love that. And I appreciate that. You also talk about how men think versus how women think a lot of times, it is very different. And so you have to sometimes be very, very specific. And the other thing, I think, I wonder if you agree with me, Sheila, but I think a lot of times we micromanage in a way that’s just unhelpful. And so maybe, maybe we’ve asked for help, or our husband was originally helping us with whatever, getting the kids ready or whatever. But then he does it a totally different way than you would and then you kind of pick apart his delivery of helping you. And then it kind of, Okay, nevermind, you won’t, next time. Yeah, I wrote a book called to love honor and vacuum was actually my first book. And I shared the story in that about a dad who, one day together with another dead friend of his, they decided on the spur of the moment, they were going to take the kids to the beach, give the wives a day, home with it with, you know, with just the women. And this sounded like a good idea. But they took off to the beach. And they have forgotten towels, they have forgotten sunscreen, they didn’t pack a lot, you know, like to a woman to go to the beach is a huge undertaking, right? And this the day before, because we need all of this stuff. And the guys just went. And yeah, it’s been a really fun day, like, like when they realized they didn’t have sunscreen, they just had the kids go in the water and then roll around to the sands so that they had sand covering their bodies. Oh, that’s so funny. Oh, my gosh. And then they just dried off in the sun later on. And I you know, it was just remembered as this really fun day with dad, where everything was not normal, but everyone may do and so the kids had a great time. And arms learn that sometimes you just have to take a step back, and he really will be able to do it. And she’s just doing his own way. And so yeah, we do need to give our husbands the, you know, the leeway for that stuff. Yes, that’s so true. Yeah. What, what is the premise of to love, honor and vacuum? Because I know you’ve got a vibrant blog and this book? And could you just share what someone picking up your book would be able to learn from it?

23:39
Well, the subtitle is if you feel more like a maid than a wife and a mother, and I think that that’s what happens. So many women, we get married, thinking we’re signing up for this relationship. And then five years later, we feel like our life is just one endless to do list. And what do you do, then? How do you find the love again? How do you make sure that people are actually respecting you, when you like everyone takes you for granted. And it’s all about things that we can do to change our marriage and to change the dynamic so that our husbands, you know, do cherish us and do treat us well. Because, you know, the things that we tolerate, tend to continue. And I think women are tolerating things that they shouldn’t. And then a lot of women are becoming such control freaks, that our husbands tend to retreat. And that’s not healthy either. So there’s these two problems, you know, one is that we may tolerate things that that we really shouldn’t. And the other is that we may start acting in ways that we really shouldn’t. And so how can you find that that proper balance we’re more of a team? Yeah, and I know you use Scripture kind of throughout your, your website, is that also in the book like a godly approach to that as well? Oh, absolutely. I think one of the yeses that really sums up I think everything that I write in Hebrews 12 I guess it’s two verses Hebrews 12 One and two. We The writer of the Hebrews, after Hebrews 11, where they did this great heroes of the faith and they explain all these great heroes of the faith, they start off chapter 12 by saying, therefore, since we’re surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, you know, all these people before. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith and let us Why am I blanking on his now? That’s okay. I just I just looked it up, throw off everything that founders Yes, throw off. Yeah, anything that hinders and the sin which so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance, the race that is set before us. And the one thing that really hit me about this versus when I first read them, probably when I was a teenager, was the things that we’re supposed to throw off, you know, we’re supposed to throw off everything that hinders and the sin, which means that there could be things that are hindering us that aren’t necessarily sin. And I, I think that often, we feel like if there’s a block in our marriage, or if there’s a block in our relationship with God, it must be because there’s some huge sin issue. And that certainly may be the case. And we certainly need to examine our lives to see if that’s the case. But often, it’s not a sin issue, which is keeping us from God’s best. Often, it’s just behavior patterns, or time wasters or things that are not necessarily bad, but they’re holding us back. They’re weighing us down. And what are those things I really challenge people to look at is because I think we fill our lives with a lot of things that are not helpful. Yeah, you know, a lot of behavior patterns. You know, even for women, especially like our attitude towards sex. You know, all this and what do you mean by that back? And I think that we, now now I’m generalizing here, okay? Let me put a disclaimer out there. When I did the research, for my book, The Good Girls Guide to great sex in about 24% of marriages, the woman is the one with a higher sex drive. So it is not always the guy with the higher libido. Okay, so please, if you’re one of the women who has a higher sex drive, just give me a bit of grace for what I’m about to say. And then we can come back to that situation in a minute, too, because there’s some unique problems with that. But I think a lot of women really see sex as something which, you know, is optional. Like, it might be the icing on the cake, but that really is all it is, like, it’s just something that’s extra, whereas sex is really more the oil in the engine, the thing that keeps the relationship going, and God created it to be something which is so wonderful. Um, you know, it’s intimate on three levels. It’s emotionally intimate. It’s spiritually intimate. It’s physically intimate. And a lot of people haven’t necessarily experienced all of that. And so we tend to make sex seem like it’s something which is almost shallow, and it shouldn’t be. And when we don’t put enough emphasis on it, I think we rob ourselves of a very rich life. We don’t just rob our husbands.

28:09
Yeah. Hmm. That’s good. No, I love that. It’s interesting. I love that you you talk about sex that way? Yeah, I want to ask you just a follow up about the higher libido wise, I’ve definitely had encounters with plenty of higher libido, wives, they’ll talk about it. But the thing that gets me I just don’t understand it. Maybe you can clarify this for me, is I don’t get how our society doesn’t reflect it. Does that make sense? We don’t have, you know, sex slavery is not happening to serve the female drive. Nothing is happening to that, you know, pornography is generally not serving the female driver. I mean, it just, it seems like if it were more comparable to each side, the sex drive, it seems like that was showing up in statistics elsewhere. I mean, what do you kind of think about that? Well, I think that the, the media’s portrayal of sex tends to be more male focused. But I think that that’s largely also a cultural shift. Because what happened was, you know, somewhere near the beginning of the century, when Christianity stopped being as much of a driving force, we really started seeing sex as something which is outside of marriage. And if you take, oh, yeah, if you take sex outside of a commitment, marriage relationship, then all you really have is the physical. You don’t have the emotional intimacy, you don’t have the spiritual intimacy because those things you know, to have those things you need trust, you need commitment, you need vulnerability, and not yet are present if you don’t have a real commitment. And so what we’ve done is we’ve taken sex outside the marriage relationship, we’ve made it only about the physical, and so we start to portray sex in that way. I mean, What What what’s super sexy, it’s the body, you know, and this is why we see such pressure on women to look a certain way. And there’s always been pressure on women to be beautiful always. But it’s become almost sinister, I think in the last 30 years, the, you know, the pressure that women face. And it’s because in order to attract someone, you have to be a certain type of sexy. That’s only true if sex is only about the body. And so, you know, and then what happens if you have sex and you feel like something’s missing, it doesn’t feel quite as good as it’s supposed to? Well, then we figured what we need to do is we need to stretch the boundaries, more and more, we need to try more and more weird things, exciting things, we’ll see if we can get that high. And that’s why you see all these weird sexual practices that nobody ever did, or, you know, nobody even talked about when we there’s that now our 12 year olds know what they are. And so think, you know, boundaries are really getting stretched. And yet, what people don’t realize is that the reason that sex seems to be missing something is because what it’s missing is that idea of spiritual intimacy, when you feel like you’re one where you feel like you’re really connecting, you can’t do that, and you’re not married. And so I think what’s happened is that the, the media’s portrayal of sex has become something which is completely physical. And that may seem more like a male portrayal of sex. But I think that men have a greater desire for intimacy too. So guys are shallow or anything like, yeah, it’s just that our whole portrayal has really made sex shallow. Yeah, and that’s what we’re, that’s what we’re missing. I love that. I like that so much. And so to kind of circle that into the, the higher libido, wives kind of journey to talk about the reason that maybe statistics doesn’t like the things that I shared about the pornography or prostitution, those kinds of things. And the female, her nature would not kind of go after things like that, because she’s looking for the intimacy. Yeah, that’s an in marriage, not the physical? Is that what you would say? Yeah, I would, I mean, our sex is certainly very different. And, you know, there’s several reasons why a guy could have a lower sex drive. And also, it’s really common in marriages for it to ebb and flow. You know, she has a higher sex drive, and then for there to be a period where he has the higher one. So it’s not like this is all the static. Yeah, the things that can kill libido. You know, the first of all health issues, antidepressants, you certain medications, diabetes, if you’re really overweight. For guys, especially who are overweight, it means they’re gonna produce more estrogen. Estrogen in a guy is like the opposite of testosterone, it’s gonna kill their sex drive. Yeah. So any of those things can do it stress can really kill your libido.

33:00
Relationship issues if he’s had performance problems, so if he’s had erectile dysfunction in the past, I get scared of trying again, and so that can kill it. But the interesting thing is that all of those reasons have been present forever. You know, yeah, not the the antidepressant stuff, but health issues, stress from work issues, all of those have been present forever. But what we’ve seen in the last 10 years is a huge spike in the number of men who have no sex drive. And the only real change in the last 10 to 15 years is the prevalence of pornography. Pornography is really the number one libido killer for men. And that’s, that’s counterintuitive, because most people think, Well, if he’s watching porn all the time, it’s gonna be really excited. But that’s actually not the case at all. Because what happens is, if he watches porn, he is rewiring his brain so that what becomes exciting is an image rather than a person. And so Oh, yeah. And so now it actually becomes almost impossible, depending how much he uses point to get aroused by his wife. Yes. And, you know, the, there’s a, there was a really interesting, huge study done out of Italy about three years ago now, that found that most sufferers of erectile dysfunction are now under the age of 40. It’s not Bob Dole with the little blue pill like, you know, that we used to see him. It’s really young guys, and those little blue pills will do nothing for them. Because it’s not a physiological problem. It’s not a physical problem. The problem is in the brain, because you’ve literally rewired the brain about what is arousing. So, you know, porn is toxic for so many reasons. Yeah, but that’s one huge thing that’s going on. And so we’re raising this generation of teenagers who are getting their sex education from pornography. So you know, as soon as they start to have sexual feelings, they they see porn on the computer and that, that solidifies that relationship between pornography and arousal. And now normal arousal isn’t isn’t even, you know, possible. So there’s so so the boys were growing up today they’re going to have a big challenge. And I think as parents, we need to be protecting them. Yeah, absolutely. We had an interview just recently by Luke Gilkerson. From covenant eyes. Yeah. So like, yeah, we need to be protecting them by by, by Absolutely. Guarding, putting on filters. So I think that’s very, very important. You know, it’s interesting. I, I’ve been swimming in this stuff for a while. I don’t know if this ever happens to you, Sheila. But sometimes it’s just so overwhelming the brokenness, the brokenness of our world. And, and God kind of gave me a scripture recently that I felt was really helpful that says, Some Romans 1221 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. And that has just been really helpful recently, to me, because the brokenness of our world is so stark, that I just love someone like Sheila’s message, you can, you can see that it’s a hopeful message. So she’s saying, this is the sadness of what’s happening today. But we need to be overcoming evil with good, we need to be getting married and having appropriate and good intimacy in it. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know, no matter what kind of brokenness people have marriage, I think can be one of the most healing tools that God can use, I know that my marriage has been an incredibly healing tool in my life, you know, just feeling some of those rejection is just that I had as a child, and, and it’s okay to be broken. It really is. And I think that when, when God is in our brokenness, amazing things can happen. And so, you know, if you’re a woman, and you’re listening to this, and your husband struggling with pornography, there’s two possibilities. One is that he will acknowledge it, and he doesn’t think it’s wrong. And if that’s the problem, if that’s the case, you really need an intervention, you need to get someone to come and talk to him with you. But you know, in a lot of Christian relationships, what I’ve seen is that he really wants to step up, he’s just having a really hard time. It isn’t something he’s happy about. He’s really deeply ashamed about it, he just doesn’t know how to stop. And if that’s the case, I would really encourage you fight the poor and do not fight your husband, you know, fight with your husband, not against your husband, because he just needs your support. And I know that your hurts, I know that you women listening are hurt, if your husband’s doing that, and you feel rejected. But if he really is trying to stop, then be his biggest cheerleader, don’t make it harder on him. You know, and if, you know, talk to some friends about it to get out your own feelings, but I think you can be his biggest ally in this fight.

37:54
Yeah, that’s so good. I’m so glad you mentioned that, Sheila, because you’re absolutely right. And I struggled with bulimia, when I met my husband, and it was the the love and support that he gave me was so vital in me getting free of that addiction. And, and that’s, that’s something I kind of think about with the pornography is that wives have an opportunity to love their husband through this to get totally free. And, and the other I guess, side of this, that I think is a helpful piece. I wonder, you know, what your thoughts are on this Sheila is that, you know, I, I know that my husband is someone who has has struggled with pornography in the past. And so it’s possible, it could come up again. And I just have to have a real, honest understanding of that. Because if we if we kind of put our husbands on this pedestal, that they’re never going to struggle with this, it puts the extra pressure on them. And then also, it makes it a lot harder for them to share with you. If and when it does occur. Yeah, that’s exactly right. And okay, you know, we and there’s such a difference between a guy who uses porn every day and a guy who relapses maybe once and benches for a weekend, you know, saying that we can binge is fine, it’s not. But think about it for you, if you’re trying to lose weight, how many of us have tried to lose weight, and we’ve been really good on a diet for 29 days, and then on day 30? You know, we had to Krispy Kreme and we get right, right? I mean, it’s hard. It’s really hard when you’re trying to defeat something and, and for guys to you know, pornography can be really paired with stress relief. A lot of guys turn to it when they are stressed. And so you can be fine for five years, and then you’ll go through a period of financial stress or job loss, or even like a child’s illness, and that’s when it will come up again. You know, it’s just, you know, let’s just show each other some grace. Like I said, it’s entirely different than your house. and won’t admit it’s wrong and continues to use it and that that’s a good situation. But if he really is trying to address it, then let’s address it with him and be his cheerleader. Yeah, yeah, that’s really good. That’s really good. Wow, such great insights. I am excited to share with you actually the next half of this on Thursday. So she gives so much more insight. You won’t want to miss it. Come back on Thursday, and you’re going to hear, really, one in particular is a very specific technique that women will need to start implementing in their love making for the most possible pleasure. So that is coming up. I know. You’ve got to wait. I’m sorry. But let’s, let’s come back, come back and join me with Sheila on Thursday. And we’ll talk then God bless you. Have a great rest of your day. Bye.

40:55
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Trista Laborn of A Purpose Driven Wife. On this episode, Trista talks about how she got pregnant at such a young age and feeling lost due to the mistakes she made. She tells us how she felt like her entire life was just ruined and that she no longer had a future. But she found God, and everything changed for the better. She got married, finished her degree, set up a business, and just got her life on track. Trista encourages women in the same ordeal to just hold on and tells them that everything IS going to be okay. She believes that God has a plan for all of us, and His plans are made regardless of our past mistakes. This episode is just so uplifting, so listen in and be inspired!

Scripture/Quote:

• I glorified you on earth By completing down to the last detail What you assigned me to do. John 17:4 MSG
• A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. Proverbs 31:10
• For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jeremiah 29:11

You’ll Discover:

• How Trista felt so lost when she found out she was pregnant while still in college
• How she believed that her future was ruined because of the mistake she made
• How she was led to God and how she found Him to be her guiding light
• The sign her husband was asking from God that ultimately led him to marrying Trista
• How God turned her life around in the most amazing and powerful way

Tweetables:

• From where I grew up, to God leading me where I should be…it was a process.
• Throughout that whole thing, God was with me…whether I knew it or not.
• God sees exactly every single detail you’re going through and understands completely.
• The mistakes I’ve made doesn’t stop the fact that He has a plan for me.
• The future He has for me is not to harm me, but to give me hope.
• The pain and the hurt I went through had purpose.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday & Thursday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:19
Hi there, welcome. How are you today? I hope all as well with you and your heart and your life. And maybe that this webinar, pardon me, I’m just getting excited about the webinar. This is a podcast episode is going to just really encourage you. I’ve got an awesome guest today, Trista Bourne, who has got just such a beautiful heart. And you can tell she’s doing a lot for the Lord in her ministry of her family. But then also, her ministry online. Before we dive in there, I just wanted to mention that the webinar is tonight. And if you’re with me live tonight, it is free. But it is the first time ever that this webinar will be recorded. And it will be available for your purchase later in the month. If you don’t get a chance to see it. So hopefully you’ll be able to get it free. Otherwise, it’ll be for purchase later in the month. Okay, well, once again, Trista is going to talk to us about what it means to be a wife. Well, actually to be a mother before your wife and how her story really played out. She did not have an easy road to get there. But I I think you’re going to be able to hear maybe your own struggle, and hope in it, as well. Let’s listen in and I hope that many of you, I’ll be talking to tonight if you’re not yet signed up to light your marriage.com/webinar.

1:55
Hi, and welcome. This is the delight your marriage podcast. And today I have Trista Laborde with me. Hi, Trista.

2:02
Nolan. Good, I’m

2:04
doing great. I’m really excited to chat with you and dive into your story. Because I think it’s going to be really, really good. So could you just start off by introducing yourself, your family and what your day to day life kind of looks like? Okay.

2:19
Oh, thank you so much for having me. So, um, my name is just just like he said, I have a blog. I’m a writer, behind a purpose driven wife, and I am married to a Marine. And I have three beautiful children. twins that are 10. And my youngest is turning two. And my daily life is basically just trying to get my kids off to school and just keep in my two year old busy. And yes. And then I basically just, whatever, whatever assignment that I have to do when it comes to

2:59
talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you also have a podcast, right? Yes.

3:03
Yeah, also called a purpose of the wife podcast.

3:08
Yeah. And I love the name. I just, I love the name. I love the idea of being purpose driven. And no matter what stage in life, whether you’re a mom, or whether you’re a wife, or whether, you know, whatever kind of hat you’re having being purpose driven in the midst, I just think is really beautiful. And I hear your little two year old I think in the background. Yes. I have a little two year old to actually it’s a little boy and I know the battles. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We, we seem to practice our nose as often as we can here and Oh, that’s good. Well, okay. So and your husband’s and marine. So that means that, you know, there’s, you know, seasons of time where you all are not even able to see each other. Is that right? Oh, yes.

3:58
month. Month. Wow. And, and then but sometimes, you know, it has been a good thing, because, you know, when he gets back, we’re both grown, you know, okay, grown, not just spiritually, but you know, just individually. People have grown as adults and just come together and continue going together.

4:24
Wow, that’s a beautiful way to look at it. Really? Well, can you tell us a little bit about his personality and your personality? So

4:33
his personality is these very laid back. If you were to meet him, he’s very funny, charming. Very smart, and is very passionate about God and wow, me on the other hand, I’m very funny as well as outgoing. You You wouldn’t know that. My husband just by meeting him. He’s very good. no outgoing when you meet Yeah, really? He just loves he’s basically a homebody. Oh, me. I’m just all about traveling and meeting people and just getting lost in new places and things like that. He just like, yeah, stay home relax. Oh,

5:19
yeah, yeah. Okay, well, this podcast is really all about encouraging wives in their intimacy, their walk with the Lord as well. Could you share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years, or even recently?

5:32
Oh, man. So recently, yeah, I’m scripted that has really propelled me to do just a lot of what I’m doing right now with a purpose of a wife. My blog and podcast is the Scripture, John 17. Four. And it says, The Message version, it says, I glorify God on Earth by completing down to the last detail what you assigned me to do. And I absolutely love just that scripture, because it just speaks to what I’m doing right now.

6:06
Wow. Wow. You know, it’s That’s brilliant. I’m so glad you brought that up. No, it was John 17. Four. Yes. I got to go back and really look, meditate on that one. Thank you for sharing it. But um, because it, it, that’s something God has been teaching me I think also of like, why do we think, you know, there’s, there’s more than one of us on this world, we’re not all called to help the same thing or fix the same problem? Yeah. So sometimes I feel overwhelmed. Like, there’s so many issues in this world, Lord, how, you know, how am I supposed to fix all of them? And it’s like, Well, Jesus didn’t do that. Jesus, you know, did what the Father assigned him to do?

6:47
And what I love that it says, Yeah, down to the last detail, you know, so the plan in the plans and the purpose that God has given us, if it is specific for us, in that chapter, Jesus is actually praying for not only himself, but the disciples and the believers and others. Wow. Right before he gets arrested to ultimately getting crucified on a cross. Yeah, I love that. Just that whole chapter, you know,

7:18
wow. Thank you for that trust. I think that’s gonna be our homework. Do you I am listener, Let’s meditate on John 17. This week. That’s so good. Okay, well, awesome. Well, can you share? I mean, a huge reason that I do this podcast is because I don’t know. Well, you’re a business lady. You you do the entrepreneurial stuff. So you probably have heard this before. But you are the five people that you spend the most time with, you kind of become like them. Have you heard that before?

7:51
A little bit. I’ve heard of this.

7:53
Okay about it. Yeah. Well, it’s basically just that it’s kind of telling you to kind of surround yourself with the people that you kind of want to become because without even realizing it, you’re spending time with the people that you’re hanging out with. And, and so I like I like thinking about this show, kind of like that. Because we’re you’re hanging out with someone like Trista you’re hanging out with, you know, some of the other guest. And that’ll help you to think about marriage in a way that’s actually where you can start having a marriage the way that they have a marriage because you’re starting to think about it that way. So anyway, that’s that’s how I like to think about do I am so you know, it really helps to hear stories that helps to hear struggles, very clear stories of like, what happened in your marriage? And how were you able to, you know, get through it, what God taught you in it, and then, so would you share with us a difficult season or struggle in your marriage? That, yeah, would you go ahead and dive into?

8:54
Um, so basically, um, when my husband I met it, it wasn’t like on good footing advances. And what when I say that is, when my husband I met we were sleeping buddy, I’m just gonna put it bluntly.

9:13
Yeah, I hear that. I hear that. I hear that. Similar to my story, too. So thanks for sharing that. Yeah.

9:20
So um, I say that because, um, you know, this was before I knew the Lord, this was before I even. I’m just gonna say it that I even had any type of morals. And I really liked him. And we both just started sleeping together. And then eventually I got pregnant. And during that time that I got, I found out I was pregnant. He was actually leaving to go on deployment for six months. Oh, my goodness. So um, during that time, I just moved back. I was in college and I moved back to my mom’s house and just try to set up life there and my husband I just began to really just try to be will try and discuss, you know, how are we going to do things if we even want to work it out? And but during that time, I really just started getting to know that and that’s when it got really just started drawing me to him. I started watching a lot of different preachers on on on on the TV and things like Yeah. So during that time, my husband and my husband and I were really discussing on just trying to work it out and really just try to get to know each other. And so my husband at the time, I didn’t know this. But yeah, but somebody didn’t notice. But he was actually getting to know the Lord Himself doughnuts. Oh, wow. So while he was away, he was learning more about God. And he was actually ready to get married. So he prayed. So he prayed and asked God, okay, you know, God, I have some choices now. And, you know, I want you to show me who am I to marry? Wow. And he ain’t got and God said to him, and this is, you know, after years, telling me. He said to him, I said to him, and, you know, God, you know, that me and just are not on good terms right now. Right? Because me, and we’ll talk on the phone, and I will try to tell him like updates and things like that, we will always argue we will always butt heads. And it seemed like it just didn’t work out. Like it wouldn’t work. You know, like I said to him if you want to be happy, right, you know, to married marriages. Okay, so he said, Okay, if you are telling me two marriages that then just have to talk to me about power. 31. And then I know that this is a sign that you have that two marriages. Right.

12:06
Proverbs 21. You said, Proverbs 3110. Oh, Proverbs 31.

12:10
Okay. 31. And so the next time we spoke, he, the next time he spoke, I started talking to him about proverbs 31.

12:22
And, which is the, which is the one about who can find a virtual virtuous wife, her Okay, very cool about

12:29
the virtuous woman. And, but during that time, you know, of course, I didn’t know that, um, you know, that, you know, that he was wanting me to push that. Right. Right. I, I just, I just remember myself just being drawn to the the person that the preacher that was talking about it, I was just so in all of this, Proverbs 21 woman, you know, and I wanted to be, I wanted to be like this woman, you know. And so when, when my husband says that, you know, as I was talking to him about it, he said, his mouth just dropped his last job. And then, you know, we just started just just trying to work things out. Just from that point on, you know, we eventually got back from deployment, I moved, I moved down to where he was, we got a house together, we went and got a church, we went and got involved into a church, a Bible based church, and we just grew from there. You know, Billy, God just really just built me up from the ground up. You know, I was such a baby having babies.

13:37
Oh, gosh, yeah. You know,

13:39
you know, so I was just, I just got literally in life, you know, like, yeah, you know, so, I mean, God just really walked me through and then just after receiving God, you know, receiving the Lord. During that time, the very first time I heard God, speak to me was, he said to me, it was Jeremiah 2911. I know the dose that I had to watch you. And then of course, at that time, I had no idea what that meant. You know, I knew that it was God speaking to me. And I knew that it was in the world, but I had no idea what that verse meant to me, man, like over over 10 years later, I, that Scripture speaks to me every single time, you know, and I am just completely lost. When I have no idea what God is doing in my life, and I’m just, you know, frustrated with the day to day things, you know, know that God has a plan of purpose for me. And my hope is in the future that he has for me.

14:39
Yeah. Wow. I mean, that’s so powerful. Like I wanted to dive into some of the details if you don’t mind me. So okay, so when you met your husband, and you’re dating him at the time, was this something that like, had you been told by your parents that this is you should say sex till marriage or was that not like didn’t care? No,

15:00
um, you know, sex was just my humble it was. It was basically more of don’t don’t get pregnant. Oh, okay. Okay. That was basically it. Like, I got to church, there was no type of spiritual aspect in my growing up. So, um, you know, so that was really as far as sex was, you know, in my just growing up, it was basically protect myself and don’t

15:35
Why do you think they said don’t get pregnant was it just because?

15:40
Well, you know because my mom you know my mom had me at an early age she had been while she was in high school, and she basically struggled just taking care of us taking care of me and my three brothers. Me and my two brothers. It was three of us. And so my mom didn’t want that for me, you know? And so she would just letting me know that and plus, we were in like a POV ish area. You know, I love your sob. Oh,

16:13
you realize, okay, I’m in New York City. Yeah.

16:17
In the Bronx as Okay, yeah. Wow, it was it was in like a ghetto, basically. And yeah, so basically, that that was all around me, you know, getting pregnant at an early age. And, you know, my mom didn’t want that for me. And so yeah, it was basically understood. Don’t have sex at a young age, and they’ll get pregnant, you know, protect.

16:41
Wow. But that was that was the purpose was just because it’s too hard. If there was no like, because God wants something more for you. So then, okay, so, so you got pregnant in? No, at that time? That’s when you got pregnant with twins.

16:57
Yes. My first time getting pregnant ever in life. Wow. God said bam.

17:05
You. That’s right. Oh my gosh. Well, actually, there’s a there’s was a guest that I had not too long ago, one of my listeners actually. And she said that, you know, everyone says that God gives us more. God doesn’t give us more than we can handle. And she her name is Karen. She’s like, that’s a bunch of baloney. God gives us more than we can handle so that we learn to trust him. Yeah. Isn’t that good? I love that. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, for your, my gosh, so how in the world did you go from, you know, being impoverished in the Bronx? little itty bitty babies. To then I mean, what made you turn to God in the first place in that scenario?

17:46
So, you know, I grew up in the Bronx, and then I eventually went off to college, in upstate New York, while you had two babies. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I’m

17:57
building. Okay. Sorry.

18:00
So I went to college. Right. Okay. So, um, in high school, a friend of mine, I graduated in high school, she joined the military. And so okay, I, oh, so she called me and she was like, hey, just, you know, let’s get you know, let’s hang out. You know, I’m here. I met my husband in South Carolina. Okay, so it was to her, it was to her that that I met my husband. And that’s how me and my husband, you know, we got hooked. And then I eventually, that’s when I had twins. So, um,

18:35
so you were in college? When the happened?

18:37
Yes. When the when I got pregnant. Gotcha. So, when my husband I made the choice to, you know, get together and, you know, work this out. You know, I was at a very low point in my life, you know, because, mentally I just wasn’t ready to have children, you know? Yeah, I didn’t know even how to even take care of children. You know, I didn’t grow up babysitting or doing anything like that, you know, so I was just completely lost. So I had no, I basically had no option, you know? Yeah, I was in an area where I didn’t know anybody. Yeah, taking care of two children. And, and, and by myself, I was taking care of two children. So during that time that I was pregnant, and God was basically telling me it was basically online, online, on the television. Okay. Wow. That began the drawing of what you do in my life. You know, these guys? Yeah. And so, um, you know, at the time, of course, I didn’t understand Basically, when I moved back with, with my husband and me and my husband started to get back together, that’s when I’m, you know, I just started really getting into God’s word and just really learning more about God, you know. So that’s really where it started. And then, just being from where I grew up to just the leading of where God was taking me, you know, it was definitely a process, you know, I’ve had to really learn that there was some selfishness that I had to deal with, there was some, just a lot of hurt and pain that I’ve had to deal with as well. You know, because even even during that time, you know, I was, I was extremely hurt, you know, when I was pregnant with with twins, I wanted to have an abortion, you know, you know, I was very, extremely hurt from the mentality mentality that I grew up with. Yeah, getting pregnant was awful. Like, that means my life is over, you know, right. You know, so I felt like, like, this can’t happen to me, because I’m in college. I have plans, you know, right. I have plans. So I, that’s basically what I tried to do. You know, when I was pregnant, there was a while he was away, during that time, I was trying to have an abortion, you know, course it didn’t work out. But God, he had his hand throughout that whole situation, you know, and I was so purpose driven, okay, to get to have him wish and like, nobody was even told I was so bold about it, that I told my mom, and that I even told, like, coworkers even because at the time we’re into, and so I was like, you know, this is not going to happen to me, you know? Wow. So, so I had to, you know, God literally had to peel back those layers and really get down to the, to the dirt, you know,

22:11
yeah. Can Do you mind sharing the story of how you did not happen, so that you did not yes, so.

22:17
So basically, um, I was working. And, you know, I was charged with basically trying to get my life together, pregnant while he was away, and try to basically have an abortion, and I was looking up, and I was looking up clinics in the area. And I went to the actual appointment, and it was like, one appointment first, they do like a consultation, they, you know, they look, they look at you and things like that extra questions. And then the next appointment is, you have to have somebody with you, you know, you get the procedure done. And then then that’s it. So the problem was for me was that I had the money and everything, but I didn’t have anybody to come with me. So I asked, my mom was like, I’m not gonna support you. And that is something that you have to do, or you have to make this decision for yourself, but I’m not gonna assume that, you know, and so I was like, okay, you know, if you’re not gonna do it, somebody else is gonna do it. You know, I didn’t say that. I didn’t say that to her. But this is my mentality. You know, I was thinking this. And so I started asking co workers, and I’m almost embarrassed to say that because I’ve been moved apart my coworkers, you know, working there for a couple of months, and then hear somebody saying, Can you call me to the abortion clinic? You know, just your, your state of mind at the time, you know, you’re so focused on just fixing a mistake, like how you feel like, you know, and you’re like, I didn’t even care what anybody else was thinking or anything like that. I didn’t take care of this, you know. And then they were looking at me like, what, what is your mother saying, you know, I’m like, well, she’s not gonna she’s not gonna do it. She’s my father. Come with me. You know, she’s not putting me. Yeah, you’re not gonna support you even. Hmm. Wow. Wow. No. So I was just like, Okay, well, somebody will and then I’m over here. Just fuming just in just, I mean, anger, just so angry, you know? Yeah. And then now it’s like, okay, well, I can’t do it since nobody’s not gonna come with me, you know. Wow. So that, wow, I didn’t I didn’t, I didn’t have them.

24:50
Well, and can you talk to just let’s say, if there’s a woman who’s listening who’s maybe considering that possibility, or even has had and abortion. I mean it, was there something that you could maybe share in retrospect, like, what you’ve learned through this, this whole thing? Oh,

25:08
throughout that whole thing. God was with me whether I knew it or not, you know, and when people say that you’re going to be okay. You know, I felt like that was almost like a slap in the face. Because, like, you might as well have just had spat in my face because I felt so lost. Okay, I’m almost fired, because I could just feel just how I felt back then, you know, I was so lost, you know, I mean, just mentally, and just, like, literally, like, I didn’t know what to do. Like, for me, I had no experience and having children and having twins. Like, at the time, I didn’t know the capacity of just what twins were was, was being like, like, you know, okay, I’m having twins. All right. You know, I didn’t know when I was like, you know, so, to say that, that you were going to be alright, was, it’s like, was like a third of my face. Because I felt like, I was gone. Like, like, I felt like, nobody can help me. You know, my boyfriend who got me pregnant, didn’t want to be with me, you know, he’s a way. Um, you know, my mom is doing the best that she could, you know, yeah. And my mom was with me, you know, she was with me, she, you know, she helped me, she helped me get on my feet.

26:25
Sounds like your dad was out of the picture as well, he was a part of

26:29
my father was not in the picture for a long time. But, you know, I want to do the other women that God sees exactly every single detail that you are going through and understand completely, and I can sit here and tell you that everything is going to be okay, you know, everything B is going to be okay. And that’s not the final say, like, you know, what, I felt like, this thing that was happening in the ghetto, like, that was my future. And so, what I want to tell women is that the idea that you have in your head that that, that your life is over God, God has a mental say, you know, in every aspect of your life, yes, you may have made some mistakes, but God is not gonna, you know, punish you or he’s not going to, okay, well, since you made this mistake, now, you’re gonna suffer forever. God is so merciful, and he’s so loving, okay, dreams that I’ve had since then. And has come to pass at the time. You know, I felt like when I was pregnant, and I had this ideal, and I had this idea of my future that I was going to be like those women in the ghetto, basically. But that God has a final say, you know, so, since then, I have finished my degree, I had money in the bank, I had an additional child. And, and this is because I had additional child because, you know, not not only did I want another one, but you know, God bless me, like, he blessed me with a beautiful, such beautiful children, then, you know, it doesn’t stop at the mistakes that I’ve made, you know, so when so when I talk, so when the Scripture, Jeremiah 2911, I know the plans that I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you. It’s not based on my mistakes, you know, even if it’s not on, you know, it my mistakes that I’ve made, it’s not, it doesn’t stop what he said, and the fact that he has a plan for me, okay, yes, I have, yes, I made mistakes. But in addition to that, he’s not only is he going to prosecute me, the future that he has, for me is not going to harm me. And is to give me hope. And so it doesn’t stop at my idea of what my future is, you know, because I made the mistake of having, you know, having kids out of wedlock, and then, you know, my idea of being in the ghetto forever, you know, no, you know, I live in such a beautiful area now in California, you know, besides me my degree, I’m an entrepreneur, and I’m walking in the purpose with such peace, you know, so it doesn’t, so what I want to say, bottom line, is that hold on to the fact that that’s not that, you know, yes, you may you made some mistakes, but your teacher is not conducive to that. Yeah, right. Right. God has

29:37
made for you. So, that’s just so powerful. That’s, you have an amazing journey. Trust your life. That’s incredible. Really,

29:47
you know, God gets the glory, you know, because, you know, at the time, I didn’t know that, that he was cultivating, you know, the image that he has for me, you know, he was he was calling meaning that you know, the image of Christ in me, you know? Yeah, you know, so the pain and the hurt that I was going through I was going through had purpose.

30:10
That’s awesome. Praise God. Yeah. I love that the pain and the hurt that you went through had purpose. So anyone listening, the pain in the heart that you’re going through it has purpose whether it whether you want it to or not there’s, it’s funny, there’s even a scientific statistic about that, that the people that are in hospitals, there’s like one common denominator for the people that get out faster than those that don’t, is that they just believe that there’s a purpose to what they’re going through. It’s just like, God uses that mindset in so many other ways, but I just powerful stuff. Trista thank you for sharing all that. Wow, powerful stuff. Praise God for Krista and her story and her willingness to share. Also, if you have yet to sign up to like your marriage.com/webinar I’m looking forward to seeing you tonight. God bless you, praying for you and your marriage that this was a support and hope don’t miss next episode because just to talk about what it means to have intimacy even when you’re in a long distance marriage like deployed for military or having to travel a lot for work. She gives some wonderful tips. And I don’t want you to miss that. God bless you. I love you. We’ll talk soon.

31:27
Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Wanda Collins of Christian Marriage Today, and she talks about her struggles as a wife in the early stages of their marriage. On this episode, she tackles the sensitive issue of infidelity and how she dealt with the pain brought about by her personal experience with it. She tells us how God is essential in any marriage, especially when faced with circumstances that don’t always seem to be pleasant. She hands out tips to anyone who has gone through infidelity issues in their marriage and to those who haven’t but might be scared to go through the same. It’s so powerful how Wanda uses the scripture and God’s Word to relate on how she reacted when she found out; and it’s so inspiring and encouraging to hear her talk about the strength she had, which wasn’t her own, but that of our Lord.

Scripture/Quote:

• But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.   2 Corinthians 12:9
• And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28
• We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:5
• Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. Proverbs 4:23
• Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2
• A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. Luke 6:45

You’ll Discover:

• How Wanda had become withdrawn from her husband in the beginning of their marriage, and the reason behind her actions
• How she reacted to learning about the infidelity from her own husband
• What kept her going and holding on to the marriage, even when the situations have proven to be difficult
• Her tips and advice for wives embattled with being emotionally detached from their husbands and those going through a crisis following an affair
• How she views LOVE—what it is and how it should be practiced.

Books & Resources Mentioned:

The Book of Hosea from the Bible

Tweetables:

• Going into marriage, majority of us have our own expectations. Most of those expectations are built on an unrealistic idea of what marriage is.
• I realized that what he did was his choice. It was not a reflection of who I was as a person.
• In marriage, there is no contingency clause. It’s a covenant.
• People say time heals. No, God heals.
• God is the healer and lover of our souls, and if we would just depend on him, he can get us through—even in infidelity.
• Love is not a feeling; it’s not anything you fall in and out of. It’s an action word. It’s something that you do.
• We pray when things are bad, or when we want something. We have to get into the habit of laying out everything to God.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Trascript

0:00
to light your marriage episode 42

0:04
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, the show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:21
Hi, my dear, welcome. This is Bella, thank you for taking the time to listen in today. I’ve got a great show for you lined up. So I want to jump into that. Before I do though. Have you registered for the webinar? Yes, I’m talking to you. Have you registered for the webinar, it’s super easy, go to delight your marriage.com/webinar Here’s the deal. It is free for a limited time. So I want to make sure that you get it free. So come on live. If you’re can’t make it on June 30. At 8pm Eastern Standard Time, it’s still going to be available for two weeks for free. That’s it. And then it turns into a you know a sizable investment to view it. But it’s how to make him wild for you the five secrets to love and passion in God’s plan. I really hope that you get a chance to be there. Do it now delight your marriage.com/webinar you can do it while you’re listening to the rest of this. But please, I would love to see you there. Be there. Okay, so Wanda is actually Wanda Collins, she’s got a story that you know, I think that’s the thing God does is He uses our hardest, most difficult challenging experiences as our life to help us help others. So when you find someone that’s really gone through it in a certain area, oh man, they can support someone else like no other. So Wanda is not not unlike this. You’re going to hear her story that it was not all roses for she and her husband. You’re going to see that they went through some really challenging things and God has brought them through and made her stronger. You can hear her faith is really amazing goddess stuns. Okay, well welcome back to let your marriage listener I am really thrilled because today I have Miss Wanda on Wanda, how are you today? I

2:30
am wonderful. Thanks for having me.

2:34
Absolutely. Well. I’m so excited to have you on and I would love for you to go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit about your family and what your day to day life looks like.

2:44
Oh, boy. Okay. My name is Wanda Collins and I am the creator of Christian mares today.com. I’m married to my wonderful husband, Michael Collins. And we have two adult children. Hmm, 27 and 24. So we almost empty nesters. My oldest, my youngest son just moved out of the house. Whoo. Yeah. April. And so my oldest son who had moved out moved back in. He decided he wanted to go back to school, which is a good thing we’ve been okay him to do that. So, yeah, almost had an emptiness. But we don’t. But here so we’re looking forward to that. Yes, I’m at home every day. Michael works diligently each day outside of the home. And I’m here each day doing ministry related things. Working with Christian marriage today.com I just recently finished working on a completing a 21 day marriage counseling program. And now my days had been filled doing that I’m also you know, updating things on the website answering questions, that type of thing. And then I also do a lot of ministry things with our church. Really active there. We are both licensed and ordained ministers. There’s a lot that goes on each day. And then on top of that, oh of course have my daily wifely duties that I have to attend to like wash clothes and cooking food and that type of thing. So my day is pretty filled.

4:28
Yes No It sounds like it I think it’s always funny when we have this this mentality of stay at home extra what a you know like a stay at home mom stay at home this stay at home that no it’s more of a work from home no matter what. Like, you’re not you’re not just hanging out. Well, that’s great. Well, tell us a little bit about your and Michael’s personalities if you would.

4:53
Okay, Michael and I are as a lot of couples I believe are opposites of each other. Okay are like in many ways, but anyways, we are different. We’re alike, because we are both located individuals. And we’re easy to please, it doesn’t take much to please us. We don’t require a lot. And we’re, you know, low key. However, he’s lower key than I am.

5:20
Oh, yes. So

5:21
he’s just really always even tempered. And, you know, it takes a lot to upset him. And he’s just a real polite gentleman, very compassionate, always concerned about everybody. And, you know, wanting everybody to be happy. And just a really, really nice guy. He’s originally from Georgia. So he is a homegrown southern boy. And I on the other hand, and from the north, and so while I feel shy by nature, I can also be very loud. In my house growing up, we yelled a lot, not argued. But we just talk loud. We were just like, Oh, yeah. And so when I married Michael, and we’re just talking, he’s like, Why are you yelling at me? Oh, gosh, I’m not yelling. I’m

6:12
just. Yeah. Yeah.

6:17
So I can be really loud. And then I’m the real. I’m the one that I would say, more in your face type of person. I’m more apt to tell you what I think with Michael won’t, and perhaps sometimes I shouldn’t. So we’re kind of opposites in that regard. But it works out well.

6:40
Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s totally and you know, this whole podcast is really about inspiring and encouraging wives and wholehearted intimacy. And I’d love to hear if you had a specific scripture or a quote that has meant a lot to you in your marriage over the years. A scripture

6:56
just my favorite scripture, are you sure? Sure. Yep.

7:02
May or maybe one that you know, was relevant to your marriage at some point, or even now? Okay. Probably

7:10
two of them. Second Corinthians 12. Nine, that talks about his grace being sufficient, and his strength to be made perfect in our weakness. Because, yeah, oftentimes, because of my personality that I just described to you sometimes being this, I’m often very independent. And sometimes I feel as though I have to be the strong one. And I have to put on a strong face. And I have to handle everything and take care of everything. And that scripture just reminds me that, hey, it’s only in your weakness that he can show Himself strong. So yeah, if you’re going to be independent, and you think you can handle everything, then there’s no reason for him to show up.

7:54
Right? Right. Isn’t that right? You’ve got to

7:57
show yourself weak in order for him to show yourself strong. So that scripture has really been pivotal for me, and also Romans 828. And we know that all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. Because sometimes I think, as a wife, and as wives, we get stressed out, concerned that things aren’t going to work out exactly the way that we want them to. And our husbands are making bad decisions. And you know, what’s going on with the kids and basically, this image that we have in our minds, it’s not playing out. And so that Scripture is a reminder to me that whatever decision my husband makes, if it’s a bad one, whatever my kids are doing, whatever’s going on in my life, good, bad, ugly or indifferent. God use that for my good. He can turn anything around and work it out for my good. So there’s no need to stress about it. Just chill, relax. Yeah, got you and he can work it out for your

8:58
good. And this is brilliant one. I just love the both of these verses. I wanted to go piggyback on what you said, in the first one, Second Corinthians 12, nine, this will all be linked up in the show notes just for the listener. But I wanted to mention what you specifically said, his strength being made perfect in our weakness, and how you said, but if we act like we’ve got it all together, then God doesn’t have that opportunity to move and be the one that saves the day in a sense, is that exactly. Is that kind of how you how you see that? Oh, yeah, Scripture.

9:30
Exactly. Exactly. And oftentimes, we we do that because we forget that we’ve got help in the form of Jesus. And we feel like we’ve got to do all of this on our own. And as long as we have our hands on it, there’s no room for him to do what only He can do.

9:49
Amen. Yeah, I really, really love that. So yeah, these are really good memory verses for anyone listening because both of those are wonderful. Well, and I Yeah, I love that. Okay, so let’s go ahead. And this might even have something to do with the story that you are going to share. But basically, we like, testimonies are very important stories of what God has done in our lives stories of where even we were refined in the fire. Give us hope, when we start to hear someone else’s story, and then are like, we start to realize that, wow, this is what the colons have gone through, and they were able to make it, you know, this, we can apply to our own life. So I’d love for you to share a story of a difficult season or struggle that you had in your marriage. Oh, sure.

10:35
No, I think the funny thing, Bella, is that I think if you’ve got all of the marry with married people together, yeah. And they all told a story, everyone would have the same or similar story. videos I do, because I think all of us experienced similar things that the Bible says there’s nothing new under the sun. So yeah, I think all the stories are similar. They just have different characters in them. Oh, sure. For me, for a very long time, in my marriage, I felt as though I’ve married the wrong person. And I hear that a lot from other women. I hear it on Facebook, I hear it in email. So I know that a lot of other women and men feel the same way that he married the wrong person. So for a long time, that was a struggle for me, you know, I felt like I made a mistake. And the crazy thing about it is prior to us getting married, the Lord had shown me if anybody’s been on our website and read the story of how we met, the Lord woke me up in the middle of the night and told me what month I was going to meet my husband. And even though I met Michael in the month that God said I was going to meet when things started to go, you know, crazy, and they weren’t, things weren’t looking the way I thought they should look, I thought I married the wrong person, I made a mistake. And that tormented me for years. And it made me so discontent in my marriage and dissatisfied with him. And it caused me to change the way I treated him. And for a long time, he felt like I didn’t like him. And guess what? I didn’t. I didn’t like my husband. You know, I’m like, Who is this that I’m married, I’ve made a mistake. And so that, I think, was the biggest struggle for me in my marriage for many years is thinking that I married the wrong person. Because number one, we were, like I explained to the beginning, complete opposites very different from each other. Yeah. And then there’s a age difference between us that you may not know, I’m a lot older. Well, I won’t say a lot cuz I’m still young. But you all are seven, seven years older than I Okay. So, and I’ve been married before, and he’s not been married before. So there are a lot of things that I’ve experienced, that he hasn’t, you know, going into the marriage, I had expectations of him that were simply unreasonable for somebody of his age and never been married before. But I had these expectations. And when he didn’t meet those expectations, I was like, Okay, I made a mistake. I married the wrong person. This is not gonna work. And I was miserable.

13:28
Wow. And when you say Yeah, before you even get to the next thing, because I obviously this turns around, guys, do we know the end of the story, but I love that you share that because I think a lot of people are honestly just too scared to even admit that to them out loud. You know, they don’t want I think a lot of times it tell me if I’m wrong, Wanda, but a lot of times Christians, did you feel like you like this was a secret that you were carrying in your marriage? Or did you were you open with it? Did you tell people I marry the wrong person? This was a secret. It seems

14:01
no. Nobody knew that. Yeah. Nobody knew that. In fact, we were the model cup. Wow, no other couples were coming to us for advice. And you know, we’re counseling and that was even before we had the website. So that was early on in the marriage. Nobody knew that. Nobody.

14:22
And so when you say that you had expectations that he didn’t live up to or didn’t, he just wasn’t the person that you expected of him? I mean, what, what was going on inside of you about that? Like, what expectations were you feeling like you were missing?

14:37
Um, I think because of the type of person that I am. Well, maybe not even the type of person that I am. It may just be a female thing a girl thing could be I expected him to know everything. Oh, yeah. Get him to have all the answers. Yeah, well, my husband and when I come to you about this, you’re supposed to have the answers and you’re supposed to be able to lead this family You’re supposed to this, this and this. And you don’t know this?

15:05
Yeah. So yeah, I think that’s a very common I think you’re absolutely right. Because it’s, that’s a very common like secret fear for women that well, my husband’s disappointing me and my, or my husband’s not like my dad. And my dad was, you know this and that. And then I expected a husband, a man is supposed to be this way. In that way. Do you think your father had some peace in this? Like, who you expected him to be? Or was it something else? No,

15:32
it wasn’t my dad. It was. It was just my, my ideas, I would say I idealistic ideas of what marriage was, yeah, that’s good. When we all when we come into marriage, the majority of us have our own ethics, expectations. Yeah. And unfortunately, most of us, those expectations are built on an unreal realistic idea of what marriage is. Because even though we say we know what we’re doing, and we know what marriage is about, we don’t. And so until we actually get into it, and so I think it just came out of a sense of not really understanding what marriage is.

16:16
Yeah, I love that. Well, and I agree, I think you’re, you’re totally on, on target with this unrealistic expectations thing. And almost our society makes it that way. Because, you know, you see chick flicks all the time. And those are so romantic and so funny, and so cute. And the man does all these wonderful things shows up with roses every other scene, and we assume that’s how our marriage is gonna look like. And that’s we spend, you know, 10 grand on our wedding. And then after everyone leaves, and we’ve got to marry this person, like, so how did? How did you kind of get through this area? Well,

16:56
for me, not just for me, for all of us, there’s a scripture in the Bible that talks about taking every thought captive, yeah, bringing every thought into the obedience of Christ. And I had to learn how to take control of my thoughts. And it wasn’t until I took control of my thoughts, and begin to pull down those thoughts. And replace them with the Word of God, that my attitude towards my husband began to change. Because it’s, the Bible says that out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, you know, and to guard our hearts, whatever is in our hearts, that’s going to control how we behave. And so in order to deal with what’s in your heart, you got to start by changing the way you think the Bible says to be transformed by the renewing of your mind. So I had to renew my mind. And I had to stop thinking, I married the wrong person. And when those thoughts began to come into my head, I would immediately shut them down and say, No, I’m not going to think that anymore. I, I did not marry the wrong person. I love my husband, he is a gift from God. He is the one that you know, I love and I want to be with. And I just began to talk to myself, and talk to those thoughts that the enemy was sending my way and kept them down. And as soon as I began to do that repeatedly, and control the way I thought, my feelings towards him and my marriage started to change.

18:27
Yeah. Oh, good. That’s cool. That’s very cool. Well, I want to ask you about this idea of the right person and the wrong person in terms of who we marry. So you know, how a lot of times when you grow up when you’re growing up as little girls, it’s like that one, he’s the one for me, that one mentality? Is that something that you think had a part to play in, in your, in your ideas? Like, there’s only one for you that God picks out just that one person?

19:01
My eye is on what can you explain just a little more?

19:05
Yeah. So, me growing up, I always thought that God had a special person picked out for me that I was going to marry and once I found him, then we were all set. And it sounds like you actually have a kind of a cool story of God told you the month and then you met you happen to meet your husband the month that I was married before my current marriage as well. And I think that idea of marrying the one is actually a cultural idea, not a scriptural idea. It’s, um, honestly, it just doesn’t work. Because what if, if you did have one person that you were supposed to marry? You know, then they I guess this is the way I see it, and I would love your ideas. You know what you think? Um, I think that God does sometimes decide, you know, these two people have gone To get together because there are some things that they’re definitely God wants to do specifically through this couple. And that’s I’ve heard people having, you know, the audible voice of God telling him to marry a certain person or it sounds like you had a similar situation to something very, very divine. But for me, I assumed that there’s only one person. So when I married my first husband, I was devastated when, when the marriage turned, horrific, and I got out of it as a divorce. I was so mad at God, because I was like, God, you gave me that one person, why didn’t it work out? And so now I have a different philosophy on I’d love to hear what you think. And what do you think about the the quote unquote, the one for you?

20:44
And I actually agree with what you’re saying. And yeah, I feel the same way. I don’t feel as though there is a one soulmate for everybody. Yeah, if that were the case, then the widowers don’t have a chance of getting married. Because their one and only no longer here, right. I don’t believe that. And the Bible does show us mainly an Old Testament that there were situations where God specifically directed or lead a person to their wife or their husband. No, we see that in Scripture. Yeah. I don’t think that there’s anything in the Word of God that supports the idea that there is one person on the earth for us. Yeah, God gave us free will. That was one of the gifts that He gave us. Yeah, freedom to choose. Yeah, right. Exactly. So I think where relationships are concerned, it’s our choice. And even though the Lord told me what month I was going to meet my husband, it was my choice to say yes to Him. To marry. Yeah, yeah. No, no, I don’t think that there is one person.

22:04
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s good. Okay. Cuz I think that even like, I know, some singles, even though this is a podcast for married, but some, some also, there’s some mothers that need to be teaching their daughters some of this stuff, because it’s just important to not, you know, it just puts so much pressure on this person who is just as flawed and sinful as you are. You just can’t put that pressure on them that they’re going to be the person that completes your life, quote, unquote, because the truth is, they can’t, Jesus can a person cannot. So Jesus is the one for you. And then deciding if you are going to be married is is a, I think, a journey of wisdom, honestly. And, you know, and then, like I said, there are a handful of exceptions that God definitely needs certain people to get married for certain purposes that he has, and he he shares that with them when they are but for me, I was so scared to get married to my second husband. It’s sad to say that but you know, but I, I really had to learn how to do marriage wrong in order to do marriage. Right. That’s, that’s part of the mission of this whole thing. But anyway, thanks for sharing all that one time. What Any other thoughts you wanted to share about how things turned around? Like I’d love even specifics? Like what was something that happened before with this realization? Like, what are some things that you maybe story of something you would have done before? And then after this realization, what is the way that you do it now?

23:36
Something that I would have done before? And something that I would do now? Well, I think that prior to making the troll of the way that I was thinking about marrying the wrong person, and after I share this, I want to share something else too about Oh, sure. Right or wrong person?

24:01
Oh, one?

24:02
Yeah. Okay. Um, prior to me changing the way that I thought it caused me to withdraw from my husband. Because I was thinking, okay, he’s the wrong one. And I’m back for him. And so I just say what I wanted to say to him, whether it hurt his feelings or not, I was not pleased with him. So whatever, you know, I didn’t care yeah. And sexually, I withdrew from him. I wasn’t trying anymore. I didn’t want to touch me and, you know, laying in the bed like strangers. Yeah. And so of course, and right that created more problems with us and it led to infidelity within our marriage on on my husband, Park. When I changed my thinking, and began to you know, cast down those thoughts and begin to think on the Word of God and read place His Word with my thoughts. My whole attitude towards him began to change and I became more loving. And I began to learn how to love through Christ, and love unconditionally. And realize that both of us, like you said, are flawed. He’s not perfect, but hey, neither are you. And Christ loves you still defame and withdrawing from you, and treating you, you know, with this respect, so how dare you withdraw from your husband is respectful to him. So when I took that turn, it changed the way I spoke to him, you know, I changed how I saw him, I began to respect him more. It changed our level of intimacy, because now I’m attracted to him again, and not withdrawing from him. Oh, those are some specific before and afters.

26:00
Yeah, thanks for the age. Well, and I think that what you shared was so important, for a couple of reasons. I think one thing that I know is just so rampant in our world today is, is Yeah, infidelity in marriage, I guess, outside of a marriage? And, um, how were you able to learning that? And then, I mean, what was the process that you learned of the infidelity for you to actually decide to continue on with a marriage? I mean, that seems incredibly difficult.

26:31
Um, you know, what, I can only say that it was God’s grace was, it wasn’t as difficult for me as it could have been. And the only reason why I think it wasn’t as difficult for me as it could have been, was because at the time it it happened, I was withdrawn from him. And I had already shut down emotionally. You know, and so I wasn’t like, head over heels about my husband at that. I told you, I didn’t even like him. Yeah. So I think that that was, if you want to say the saving grace was I had already detached myself emotionally from him. So when he told me that it didn’t destroy me like it could have. Yeah, it didn’t. It didn’t. It was a wake up call that hey, something’s wrong here. And we need to fix it. totally destroyed me. But at the same time, Bella, strange cat, I, I don’t respond to things, the way that other people would normally respond. I’ve always been that way. I don’t know what to, you know, save the reason for that. Except to say that that’s the way that God created me. And so, you know, I was hurt by it. But I wasn’t like, the marriage is over. We got to force. You know, I hate you type of thing. Oh, okay. We knew that we needed to work some things out. And I think also, because I’ve been married before, unsuccessfully and divorce, that I was determined in this second marriage that this was going to work. And what happened? We’re gonna work this out.

28:20
Yeah. Mm hmm. So when he told you he, I guess was scared to tell you? It’s not that you found out he told you. Yeah, he told me. Wow. And so then, how did you? I mean, what were some steps? I’m just thinking of women that maybe just found out themselves like, what? Maybe a, b, c, and d? Should they do? Or what did you do to get things to a healthier spot? The first

28:50
thing that I had to that I did, and I wouldn’t even say that this was a conscious, a conscious thing that I that I did. But I think the first thing was I realized that what he did was his choice. And that it was not a reflection of who I was as a person. And wasn’t a reflection of me as a wife. Although a lot of times, spouses who cheat, want to blame the other spouse and say, well, it’s your fault. If you hadn’t done this, this and this, then I wouldn’t have, you know, cheated on you. But the truth of the matter is, regardless of what the other person does, you have freewill. And it’s your choice, to cheat to cheat just because somebody does whatever, gives you no right to to go and lay in the bed with somebody else. So it’s not it was your spouse’s choice is that they made? Yeah. The second thing that I had to realize is that if I left my husband Divorce seen him was not going to get rid of the pain that I was feeling. And so divorce itself is painful. And I know that because I’ve been there. Yeah, and especially when you have kids divorce, oh, my goodness, I wouldn’t wish that on anybody. Yeah, this was like the worst experience of my life, because it wasn’t something that you just deal with for a month, especially when you have kids, you deal with this for years. And so the impact of it went on for years. And it was painful for me and for my kids. And so just because the person cheats on you, you don’t have to get a divorce. And divorcing is only going to add more pain to the pain that you’re already feeling. So

30:46
and I want to just interject and underline something that you said which is so powerful. Is that just reiterating your you’re in pain? Because you find out about infidelity? Yes, that is incredibly painful. Your next choice is really your own, whether you’re going to get a divorce, yes, you could. But as Wanda just said, the intense amount of pain that comes with a divorce, and my I myself has been through it myself, is so much an additional to what you’ve already felt it’s not gonna, it’s not going to fix your broken heart just by getting a divorce one, I think that was brilliant. And could you continue on maybe to the third one, if you’re if you’re ready

31:28
for the third thing is knowing that you can survive, it won’t survive it, you can survive it, you hear so many women say going into marriage, that you know, I love my husband. But if he ever cheats on me that is done right through. And so that you have to understand that in marriage, there is no contingency clause, it’s not a contract. It’s a covenant, just like the covenant that we have, with Christ with God. And so in his covenant, there’s no contingency, the covenant is what it is. And if until death do us part and there’s nothing that we can do, that would separate us from the love of God. And therefore there should be nothing that our spouses can do, that would separate us from them, or cause us to reject them. So we have to understand that with God, not in our own strength. Remember, the scripture that I said before His strength is made perfect in our weakness, not in our own strength, but when we rely on Him, then we can begin to understand and know and have confidence that, Hey, God can see us through this and he can heal if we can’t heal ourselves. People say that time heals. No, God heals. God is the healer and the lover of our souls. And if we would just depend on him, he can get us through even infidelity.

32:57
Wow. And it’s Yeah, again, and this is one just saying it from experience, which is incredible. So when so I’m wondering, we do talk a lot about sex on this podcast, because that’s a huge part of, you know, having a fulfilling marriage a lot about sex. I mean, did you say that, you know, certain things needed to be in place before you’re willing to go that way, again, with your husband? Or if you’re willing to share any of that information, but or could you even maybe just guide someone else that may have learned their husband’s infidelity? Like, if you you mentioned that you felt like strangers in your own bedroom? And then he went outside of the marriage? So what, what I mean, what kind of shift happened in that way? And how did it happen? Or how do you think someone else should do it? I guess.

33:52
Um, again, it all points back to God. And really understanding the relationship that Christ has with the church, and all that he puts up with concerning us. Yeah. And even when you think back to go go to the Old Testament, and look at look at the children of Israel, and how unfaithful they are, yes, you know, yeah. And, and again, and again, we read that and we’re like, Oh, my God, just kill them. And, you know, we’re, we get fed up with them just reading the story, but think about Hotshots. So, they continually were unfaithful to him, but continually he went after them continually. He, you know, continued to love them, and wanted them to be his own. And so number one, you have to keep in mind that love is not a feeling. It’s something that we fall in and out of. It’s an action word. It’s something that we do. And so it really doesn’t have have anything to do with how I feel? And I’m not saying that me as a person that I’m insignificant, insignificant, or that what I’m feeling is insignificant. What I’m saying is how I feel cannot be a deciding factor in how I treat my husband. Yeah. So just because I feel like what he did was wrong, and it was doesn’t mean that I have the right to withhold my body from him. And I stand in opposition with God, I’m his word when I do that. So now I’m wrong. So you can’t, yeah, you can’t fix one wrong by, you know, doing another wrong. Yeah. So I think the big thing is that you really have to understand the love of God, what love is, how He loves us unconditionally, and really be committed to not even committed to your husband, because it’s not about that. It’s a god, and committed to doing your marriage God’s way. committed to following his word. Yeah, pleasing God. You have to look past your husband and see God. And your commitment has to be to God even when your husband’s not doing what he’s supposed to do.

36:24
Wow, that’s awesome. That’s, that’s hard. I mean, it’s hard. I mean, yeah. Like, I think we’ve got the theory down, like you’ve given us such good, like rich theology here. But then yeah, to do it. In, in a day to day. Did you have to take like some kind of separation from your husband to get yourself feeling more heels? Or were you willing to just kind of go forward, you know, day by day and try to continue to work together? How did you kind of do that?

36:57
No, we didn’t separate. A big thing for me. And I think a big thing for a lot of us Christian wise, and I think it’s lacking is prayer. We seek prayer for granted. You know, we pray when things are bad, or when you know, we want something. But we really got to get in the habit of going to the Father and just, you know, laying out before him and being naked before him and giving him our hearts and saying, Daddy, this is how I feel if you know what he did you know what he did? You know how I feel God helped me. You helped me to be loving towards him, help me to be the wife that you’ve created me to be? Help me to respond to him the way that I need to respond. Heal my heart, Lord. Prayer is what got me through, you know, that particular season in our life. I didn’t go and talk to anybody. I didn’t have anybody to talk to. Nobody knew that this had happened in our marriage. In fact, most people, including family members didn’t even know anything about this until they went to our website and read it. tell anybody about it. I talked to God about it. And it was God that healed my heart. And it was a daily thing. It wasn’t a every now and then when I think about it. I prayed about it. No, I was on my face every day, praying to God about the situation and not, you know, just talking to God like I’m talking to you right now. Yeah,

38:28
yeah. Yeah. Wow, that’s really good. One day. Yeah. I think that gives people a good sense of even just Yeah, prayer doesn’t have to be this grandiose on your knees, head on the floor, even though I like to pray like that. Sometimes. I mean, it also can be Yeah, just a constant, a conversation. They just start up with the Father, and realize you are talking to the holiest of holies, the most powerful being that made you and loves you and made everything that you’ve ever seen. So I appreciate that encouragement for prayer. Absolutely. And the last thing I want to just kind of pull out of what you talked about how God sees us and the unfaithfulness of our hearts. I love the book of a Hosea. I don’t know of anyone. Yeah. You know, if anyone had not read that book, a basically, God tells Hosea to go and marry a prostitute. Yes. Because he wants Hosea to understand how it feels to be cheated on again and again and again, by Israel. Like basically, that’s what it is. So I love that you brought that out, because that’s exactly right. I mean, how many times have we been unfaithful to God? And, and honestly, ever since this is my second marriage, and we’re gonna move to the next part of the interview in just a second, but since this is my second marriage, I’ve told my husband similar to what Wanda said is that I’ve I’ve told him, Whatever sin whatever you Don’t fall into this kind of thing. Listen, we the point is be honest, just let let we need to talk about it. I don’t, I don’t think you’re above sin. I’m not above sin, you’re not above sin. We’re not above what the enemy might trick us into or whatever. So if you kind of position yourself at a place of, we are a team, we’re gonna fight through it. And my husband has told me literally that that perspective has helped him even in tempting situation, because he’s like, no matter what, I’m going to be open with my wife, and I love her so much. I don’t want to hurt her. It’s not that What am I going to get away with? Or how am I going to hide this from her? She’s going to hear about it because I’ve, I want to share this with her because I don’t want to be carrying this alone. And so I just encourage wives or husbands like realize your spouse is imperfect on on like, they’re, they’re imperfect. They are sitting in areas you might know about whether or not whether it’s gossip, whether it’s judgment, whether it’s actual infidelity or any other thing if you think and put them on this pedestal it might be a it might make it harder to bring out the truth later. Powerful stuff you can tell that you know, just like it says in the Bible, when we’re in our the trials, that’s when the fires go in and the dross goes to the top and gets burned off. I mean, gold is purified in the fire. So if you’re in the fire right now, let one does story just help you to realize that it’s gonna it’s gonna help you I know it doesn’t feel like that. But it’s going to be something that maybe God needed you to understand so that you could help someone else in that exact same spot. I love you. God bless you, and I’ll talk to you on Thursday. Bye.

41:57
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Shae Bynes, the woman (along with her husband) behind aholythreesome.com. She talks about unconditional love and how a marriage is made of three: you, your husband, and the lover of your souls—God. Shae believes that God should be the center of your marriage and should be part of all aspects of your marriage, especially the bedroom. Shae shares about the difficulties they had in their marriage and how they managed to work through their issues as a team—a team of three. Listen to Shae’s story and be inspired by her refreshing insight and how you, too, could enjoy the holiness of sexual intimacy in marriage.

Join me on my next webinar “Make Him Wild For You: The 5 Secrets To Receive Love & Passion In God’s Plan” delightyourmarriage.com/webinar

Scripture/Quote:

“Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.” Matthew 11:28-30, MSG

You’ll Discover:

• How communication played a big (and most USEFUL) role in working out issues during the first few years of her marriage
• How she and her husband came up with the idea of writing a book, and a book about a “holy threesome” at that!
• Why we should invite God into our marriages, especially in the bedroom, and how great of an impact it contributes to intimacy
• Why teamwork is vital in every marriage, and how you too can create a team of your own
• Tips and great advice for the wife on how to improve your marriage

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• Ménage à Trois: You, Your Spouse, and the Lover of Your Souls by Phil and Shae Bynes
• The Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur website and podcast
• KDE podcast episode 37: Are You Working by Grace or by Grind?

Tweetables:

• Grace trumps grind, every time.
• When the wife gets bitter, it starts to impact everything.
• We’ve dealt with way more complicated life situations, but the way we manage them as a team—a team of three—that makes the difference.
• The greater your intimacy with the Lord, individually, is the greatest intimacy you’ll have with the Lord, collectively, as a couple.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday & Thursday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

0:00
to light your marriage episode 37

0:04
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, the show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:21
Hey there, and welcome. This is belah rose at delight your marriage. And I’m so grateful that you’re joining me today, you may have been a little bit hesitant about the title. But listen in, I’ve got Shea byens on here today. And she is just a fiery woman, you can tell she loves Jesus, and she really serves him in her work. And she’s got some very cool, different businesses that she really pours her heart and soul into. So I want you to know her resources. But also her heart on intimacy and marriage is so cool. And if you’ve been a listener for a while, this probably isn’t going to shock you too much. But if you if this is your first time, I’m going to just let you in that we’re talking about intimacy and marriage being incredibly holy, incredibly good. And even an area that God wants to be speaking to us through and in. So I mean, this is cool stuff, she really has got some great resources that I want to give her the opportunity to explain and expound upon. But the other thing is, the second half of our interview is actually going to come out on Thursday. I don’t want you to miss that because we dive deep into some more of the steamy but so holy, and so important topics. I think she’s got so much to teach us. So let’s dive in. I’ll talk to you on the other side.

1:47
All right. Well, welcome back to let your marriage listener, I’m thrilled that you are with me today. And I have Shea Bynes on the line with me. How are you doing Shay

1:57
doing? Wonderful. Thank you.

2:00
Awesome. Well, I’m just so grateful that you’re here with me. And we’ve had some back and forth for a while now. So I’m so glad that we finally have you on the line? And would you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell the listeners a little bit about yourself, your life and a little bit about your family and day to day life?

2:19
Sure. So my name is Shea vines. Personally speaking, I’m a child of a very loving God, I’m a wife to my high school sweetheart, we’ve been together for over 20 years. Since we were 16 years old. I we have two daughters of a seven year old and a 14 year old daughter and a dog. Then, professionally speaking, I do two things primarily first thing, I equip and inspire entrepreneurs to really partner with God and business to impact lives and advance his kingdom on the earth. And I do that through my company, Kingdom driven entrepreneur. And then secondly, along with my Hutz husband, this is actually pretty new started, I guess, last fall that we’ve been ministering to couples are really just experiencing God’s best and their marriage, you know, through greater intimacy with the Lord and with each other. So that’s awesome. been it’s been wonderful. Yes.

3:14
So you have got so many good things to share. I’m really excited. And, and your book also, could you mention that as well? We’re going to talk about it, I’m sure more later, but

3:23
sure. So I’ve got 11 of them. But since we’re talking about your marriage, I only have oh, I’ve got one on marriage. This isn’t what my husband and I wrote last last fall and it’s actually called brace yourself when you felt and the lover of your souls.

3:40
Awesome. Awesome. Okay, well, we are definitely gonna dive into that. Really good stuff. I’m excited. So okay, so your day to day life looks like I mean, a lot of your podcasting, which is a lot of work. Yeah. And do you have other things? I mean,

3:56
yeah, so look like for years. So with Kingdom driven entrepreneur, there’s actually a lot of facets to what we do. So yes, we have a podcast, but we actually we teach the podcast we write we have events, we have an online community, right. So we do a lot of community building aspects and teaching and training as well. And then, as far as, but also, you know, and I coach people, right in business. And so there’s that piece. And so I usually usually use like two days, sometimes two and a half days out of the week, weekdays focused on that. And then, you know, I allocate a day of just personal just stuff that you just got to deal with, right? Oh, that’s good. Yeah, I’ve kind of had to really organize myself in this way. And then and then the other days, you know, a lot with the other two days, I’m either coaching or helping my husband with his massage practice or whatever. So I kind of segmented my days a bit. And that helps keeps me sane. And, and it’s been really good.

4:55
Yes, that’s so interesting that you say that I do something kind of similar. Do I’ll have a theme for each day and I only have those morning hours because my husband goes to work and then I’ve got the kids in the afternoon. So that’s interesting that that’s how you’ve made it work with two daughters. How old are your daughters? Again, another seven

5:12
and 14. So one of them is right. And the other one is in the eighth grade, but she actually goes to school at home. She’s not home school, but she does virtue. Okay. From home.

5:22
So she Oh, to cool. Yeah. Oh, that’s cool. Well, you both are working on the computer, then. That’s interesting. Yeah. That’s awesome. Well, I love that you’re that you gave us a picture of what your Yeah, daily kind of thing. So if anyone’s listening and you’re like, how do I balance a business and life and kids and it just seems absolutely impossible. Well, look, Shay’s doing it in the flesh and check out our podcast because you’re going to get lots of inspiration. And, and God inspiration as well. So that’s very cool. Awesome. Okay. Well, I’d love to ask you a little bit about your husband’s and yours personality, kind of those kind of, yeah. Okay, so we are both

6:03
pretty easy going. I. So we’re both pretty easygoing, people, we rarely. So as long as we’ve been together, we rarely it’s not like we don’t have hot heated long arguments and fights, because we’re both pretty laid back. And so usually what happens with us is, you know, there will be a heated discussion for like, 10 minutes, and then it’s over, you know, Oh, okay. You know, we bounce back, we bounce back pretty quick. And I’m a bit more, my husband, I’d say is a bit more laid back than I am okay. Right. So you know, cuz my background is in engineering, project management program director. So you know, I’ve gotten that personality that’s like, kind of driven, you know, just kind of go, go go. And it really has been the Lord who has helped me to pull back a little bit a little bit more with him instead of being so go, go, go, go, go and hustle, hustle, hustle. So that’s been a work of the Lord over the last four years. And it’s been really great. That’s awesome. Yeah.

7:04
That’s funny. I was just talking to my husband yesterday about he’s the one that makes me relax. He’s the one that helps me to relax. That’s really good to hear that. That’s your dynamic. Cool. Well, could you share it since this is all about marriage all about inspiring wives. What a scripture or quote, that’s really meant a lot to you over the years.

7:21
Wow. So for me, you know, sometimes like you’ll hear a skill, read a scripture in one translation, then you read it in another one, and then it just hits your heart, right? Oh, yeah. Yep. For me of kind of like the scripture of my last few years, really, that I focused on, has been Matthew 1128, and 30. And it’s in the message. So I actually got to read a little bit long. So this in the message, its please Are you tired, worn out, burned out on religion? Come to me, get away with me and you’ll recover your life, I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me. Watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace, I won’t lay anything heavy, or ill fitting on you keep company with me, and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly and that’s Jesus speaking. And so that I mean, I, I this whole idea of the unforced rhythms of grace, walk with me, work with me, watch how I do it. That has been the last few years of my life, and it has completely changed my life and my marriage every aspect of my life. Really?

8:22
Oh, my gosh, I’m, I just got so good. I could. I’ve literally been meditating on that verse for the last three days. Like, Lord, I need help with this. So Shay.

8:36
I’ve been getting like a master’s degree in this over the last three.

8:43
How do you I mean, that just seems so impossible at the same time. Like, I haven’t heard it and not in the Message translation. Thank you for sharing it that way. But I mean, what what does that mean to you in a, in a practical sense, what are some things that God’s been teaching you?

8:57
And so part of it is starting my day, the right way, right? My day with him, starting my day with putting all my, you know, plans and all the things that I’ve got just before him right at his feet, right? I asked him everyday, just like, lead me and guide me through this day helped me to see things the way you see them. And in fact, every time I’ve come into a situation, a difficult situation, I’m like, Lord, help me to see this the way you see it helped me to, you know, help me have your point of view. Right. So it’s one of those things that it’s like, it’s not just how I start the day, but even throughout the day, if I’m starting to feel angst about something, I’m like, Nope, I’m this is not grace. I’m this are not the unforced rhythms of grace. I’m forcing it, I’m forcing it. And I’ll just take a step back. You know, I’ll take a step back, be quiet for a couple minutes, you know, just chill. Driven personality like that. You really have to pull back because you can just get into the hustle, hustle, hustle and I’m telling you grace Trumps ride every time. So it’s just that’s how I that’s how I live. You know? It makes a big difference.

10:09
Oh man, that is just so good. The Grace Trump’s grind thing. I listened to a podcast not even too long ago though. Similar to get like a name like that like Grace over grind. I’m trying to remember Does that ring a bell to your training? Remember we talked about this on

10:24
the kingdom driven entrepreneur podcast. Let me turn that one. But I also know this. The person that we had that conversation with has had that conversation with someone else on another podcast. I can’t remember which one so you could have heard one of two or three different podcasts on the topic.

10:40
Okay, who was what was the name of the person that you had the conversation? Yeah, say the name

10:46
again? Name is Johnson Jr. Yes. Yeah. A friend of mine. Oh, no way. Okay, cool. The host of the kingdom driven entrepreneur podcast till recently.

10:55
Oh, is that right? Oh, wow. Oh, that’s so cool. Thanks for that. Okay, so I’m going to link that up your grace Trump’s grind, that interview show will be in the in the show notes of delight your marriage. So we’ll include that that’s so good. Okay. Well, I want to dive into a story. And this might be very similar to, but a story of a difficult season in your marriage. And the reason we would like to really focus in on some, some struggles and some challenges is, you know, honestly, God does teach us through those experiences. And you know, the gold only the dross only comes to the topping and goes away in the fire. Right? As awful as it is. But in the moment later, we’re like, wow, look, we got Tom. That’s right.

11:37
That’s right. So you want to talk about a struggle in that there’s a struggle that I faced in marriage. So yeah. Okay. I will tell you that the hardest times were early on, and marriage for us. Thankfully, you know, the Lord talks about us going from glory to glory, that’s the way it is. And we’re in a crisis or marriage. That’s how it is. So it should always get better and better. So our our hardest times were in the beginning. And so I remember pretty early on when we finished up college, and got married, right away, and we moved up to Connecticut, and I went up to Connecticut, because that’s where I accept the job. And so he came with me, and he was getting his license as a massage therapist at the time. And so we had to go through a process, you know, he finished school, there’s this process for licensing. And so there’s this period of time that he was unemployed, okay. And that’s not so much the problem. It wasn’t so much the problems that he was unemployed. But what started to happen was, me that driven personality that I’ve got, and how I would handle a situation if I was unemployed, was not the same way that my husband was handled his situation, unemployed. So you can imagine me going off to work, you know, and coming back home after work, and seeing my husband playing video games. I listen, I had no idea he could have been looking at jobs all day. I mean, I had no idea. I had no idea what he was doing all day he could have been doing, you know, anything. But because when I came home, he was like, videos, man. Yeah, like, and there would be just like, there was kind of this trend of, like, when I came home, there wouldn’t be like really evidence of, you know, something productive happening towards employment. Now see, because I didn’t want to sound like a nagging wife. I didn’t want to sound like a nagging wife. So the problem was, is that I didn’t know how to communicate without being agitated about, well, what have you been doing all day? You know, what? Sure what you’ve been up to? I couldn’t even pull that out. You know, right. And that was a problem, because that was a communication breakdown. One on one, right? And so by me not asking, because I was so concerned about being a nag about it. That ended up becoming bitterness, because I didn’t know what was going on. And you know, when the wife gets bitter, and has an attitude that it starts to impact everything. It started to impact your, your desire, a lack of desire in every area. And yeah,

14:20
that’s right. That’s so true. Yeah.

14:22
And so when it got to that point, and I finally it’s like, by the time it came out why I was upset, you know, it wasn’t cute by that time, right? Because usually, you would have had a much better conversation a long time ago. And I take full responsibility for that, because I was not communicating. Right. And so it ended up turning into this big, you know, big thing that it didn’t need to be and he was really hurt, right? Because, you know, it’s like what just talk to me. And so we learned so much. It’s like we went through all of this for what it all right, what and so from that I mean, we that was such a big communication lesson for us, because the truth of the matter was, is that there was things that I actually could have been helping him with. If I had talked to him about actually what was going on during the day, I could have given him helpful ideas. You know, I could have also known what he was doing, as opposed to assuming what he was doing. Yeah, and all the things that we actually could have been a team and what we were at the time for that. And so that I think it’s funny, cuz that was very early on in our marriage. But yet still, here we are, how many years we’ve been married 99 2015. So we’ll be married 16 years this year, 16 years. That was the hardest season of our marriage. So far. Firstly, it will be the hardest one that we have to deal with. But we deal with situations. It’s not like it’s the hardest situation in life we’ve had to deal with. But we have this time for us as a couple and how we dealt with a situation.

15:58
Yeah, yep. And I wanted to just pull out some of the nuggets that you you shared one is, we could have avoided all of this pain and agony on both ends you misunderstanding what he was doing him, then, you know, being pained by your you know, final kind of, I’m guessing it was explosion. That’s what happened to me. Is that what happened? I don’t want to put words in your mouth. But generally,

16:22
the bedroom adding food the whole big. Yeah.

16:25
Yes. And like you said, if that had been addressed earlier now, do you have some guides on like, what I mean, that’s a hard situation when you are making, you know, money throughout the day, you know, your husband lost his job. I mean, that’s really hard. How can if you could have gone back to that moment, what would you have wanted to do differently? Specifically?

16:48
Yeah. So in everything, we’re supposed to be a team, and everything. And so if you’re a team, then you’re going to work through the situation together, which means to me, for us and the way our dynamics work? For us, that would mean, okay, let’s talk about I say, Honey, you know, let’s talk about what it is that, you know, you really desire to do. You know, let’s pray about it. Okay, great. Let’s take a look at what actions we can take, you know, because we can see recognize as my strength and, and organization and planning and all of that. And that’s not his strong suit. And so he would have looked at he would have looked to me for that strong suit, I would have looked to him for it, because he’s there’s so many wonderful, wonderful qualities, right. And we could have taken both the qualities that we’re both strong in and work the situation in prayer and faith together, and then do things now. And so even with, we’ve dealt with way more complicated life situations since then, but the way we manage them as a team, we a team of three, about a team of Yeah, that makes it different.

17:58
Yes, that’s so good. I love that you pulled out specifically, you know, this is not a, you know, a catch all formula in the way of like, you know, well,

18:10
the wife should do this,

18:11
the husband should do this, etc. Or no, it’s not what is God gifted you to do? What is God gives your husband to do right. And as a team together, how can we use both of those strengths and move our team forward? That’s awesome. Exactly. I love that. Well, and I want to dive into I mean, this is probably, you know, we’ll probably be talking a lot about your book. But I mean, what was what was the impetus behind writing this book? And, yeah, let’s start with that. So something kind of weird happened. Okay. Lay it on it. Okay, I’m writing really strange

18:45
happened. And there was a time while we’re in the bed, right? In the middle of sex. It’s God spoke. And it was funny, because it was like, we started getting lessons in the middle of sex, we would get a lesson of some sort, either Phil would hear it, or I would hear it. And it would be hilarious, because then we talk to each other about and it always happened, either during sex or right after sex. It was like he invaded our bedroom. It was the strangest thing. Yeah. And so after that, it happened a couple of times. I don’t know, maybe two or three times later, we got an assignment to do a book when I was just sitting there. And the Lord gave me a title for books that this is a book. It gave me the title. And when he gave me a title Manassa Swat, I’m like, You got to be kidding. First of all, I never used the term, every connotation for the term I’ve ever heard was very negative. And so when I heard that, I’m like, okay, yeah, that doesn’t make a lot of sense. Lord, I’m not even sure that was you. I’m not even sure that was you, Lord. So I actually got out of the bed. I went downstairs to go look up what the word meant. And the word actually in French means a household of three. And I smiled when I saw that, and it’s like, a household of three and it’s like, that’s it. He’s like you, your spouse and the lover of your soul. And that’s like, you know what, Lord, that’s actually really, really good. And so, so from there, we knew that we had this assignment to write this book. And so over a series of several months, we just got these lessons. And so we start, we started, like he kept, I kept my Kindle by my nightstand, and he kept his notepad by his nightstand, because we just never knew what was gonna happen. And so we just had all these little nuggets written down, and then eventually what we had ourselves was a book. We were like, we were like, getting on the job training.

20:35
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes.

20:37
Yeah. It’s kind of a weird,

20:38
that’s true. No, no, it’s, uh, well, honestly, I feel like it’s just the worst lie the enemy has sold us as like, you either are sexy, or you’re not or something along those lines, like, you either get it or you don’t. And it’s just so wrong. It’s a process of, I think, you know, God unveiling your husband God unveiling your, you know, sexuality. It’s just, it’s a constant thing. And I feel like I learn every single experience that I have with my, I mean, every single one is just new and different and enjoyable in a different way. And I feel like God’s beauty is revealed in a different way. And, oh, it’s so good. Okay, so when you I mean, when you describe your book, and I haven’t read it on purpose. I told you this today, like, I didn’t want to skip over things that that the audience would actually have questions about, because I’ve already I’m already too familiar. So I want to ask you, like, what if you could tell me what the crux is, you know, the you yourself? The love of your souls? I mean, that seems? Actually if anyone, um, to let your marriage I’ll have the link linked up, but if you look it up on Amazon, the picture is, is a little bit, uh, provoking. Really, it is. Three feet in the bed is what it

21:49
is. Three feet in the bed with a with the suit with a pair of feet in the middle with holes in them. Yeah. And by the way, I didn’t I didn’t come up with that either. Oh, is that right? Yeah, I didn’t. I said, Lord, what are we doing for the cover? He gave me the name of somebody to do the cover. And when I told him, I was so embarrassed to tell them about the title of the book. I was so so embarrassed. And so I told them the cover of the book, and she says, I got it. She told me that when I told her the name of the book, she immediately had a picture in her mind immediately. And then she’s like, Yeah, I know why you sent you. To me. I have an immediate picture in my mind. And then she and she did it. And I looked at it. I’m like, and I just laugh. It’s like, you’ve got to be kidding, Are we seriously writing this book with this title? Cover? But I’ll tell you what, it has been seriously blessing couples. And so I thank God for that. And you know, we’re just getting started, right? It was just last fall. So yeah, it’s good. But the whole premise of the book is about the fact that we should be inviting the Lord into our intimacy in every lyric, and every aspect of intimacy, physical and otherwise, inside of the bedroom and outside of the bedroom. That’s the whole premise beside behind it. And so there’s basically like, eight lessons around how we do that, right? And various aspects of what happens when when we do invite the Lord into our room, cuz that’s cuz I’m like, Listen, he’s like, we talked about this expression making love, but God is love. So how can you make love when God’s not in it? You know what I mean? So it’s like, you know, so that’s what it’s about. And in, in the hole, and kind of the thesis I’d say, it’s that the greater your intimacy with the Lord individually is the greatest intimacy you have with the Lord collectively, you know, as a couple. And so we go, we go in, you know, we go in on some tough stuff, you know, music that we listen to. Big and, you know, we talk about, you know, there’s things that people because people want to share, they don’t want to talk about, they don’t want to talk about sex. And they think, you know, some people think certain things are dirty, and maybe they are dirty for you, but they’re not dirty for someone else. So we, you know, we deal with so many issues that many don’t talk about, and really, and really just encourage conversation, you know, between husband Oh,

24:03
that’s good. Yeah. That’s good. And I feel like I just wrote an article called 10 ways sex teaches us about God. And and it’s funny because I started it kind of in faith, like, God, you’re gonna just show me while I’m writing this, because I don’t really know. Yeah. Well, that that wasn’t something to stretch you and challenge you quite a bit. I mean, again, Shay is just full of this kind of insight and wisdom. So check out her resources, check out her book. I’ll have that linked up. Not second episode is going to be coming out on Thursday. So listen for that.

24:44
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Dr. Jessica McCleese, of enhancingthedance.com a psychologist, sex therapist, and studying Christian sex educator who focuses on helping Christian couples improve intimacy in their marriage. In this episode, first she talks about how she has battled the pain of infertility. Then, she shares how she had gone through so much sexual abuse in her teen years and how this past experience has led her to become a withdrawn wife in the bedroom. She talks about how she always felt used during sex, and even throughout the marriage. You can beat the past too and become whole again after sexual abuse. Dr. McCleese tells us that it’s not the end, and we can keep moving forward because that is what God wants us to do—to move on and delight in the marriage he has blessed us with. Listen in as Dr. McCleese shares her tips and advices in overcoming your past and understanding that there is indeed life after sexual abuse.

Scripture/Quote:

“Wait for the LORD; be strong and take heart and wait for the LORD.” Psalm 24:17

“For he wounds, but he also binds up; he injures, but his hands also heal.” Job 5:18

You’ll Discover:

• How Dr. McCleese  was sexually abused as a teenager and had no idea that what happened was actually rape
• How this sexual therapist started her professional journey on a more personal journey to understand her own abuse
• How you are connecting NOT just to the physical, but the WHOLE person: spirit, body & soul
• How it was very difficult for her to acknowledge wasn’t her fault
• How you can feel loved in sex even if you were abused originally
• The struggles she had to go through during the first year of marriage, arising from the baggage of a negative past she was carrying
• How she considered herself as sexually broken and how God helped her pick up the pieces and become whole again.
• I finally had a realization after sexual intimacy that we are one, and this is what God designed.
• About our society, if a woman seems to enjoy sex or talks about it, she’s given these ugly and derogatory names.
• Why God designed the clitoris and what that means about a woman’s drive
• How we need take a moment out of our busy lives and just sit back and know that God is moving
• That it is perfectly alright to keep moving even while waiting for the promises of God

Books & Resources Mentioned:

Song of Solomon by Tori Morrison

8 Secrets for Wives To Enjoy Making Love & STAY PRESENT! by Belah Rose

Tweetables:

• It’s amazing how blind we can be to what God wants for us because our own brokenness
• I’ve just gotta learn to sit back and just wait, sometimes, for God to do things that I believe he’s promised me
• As women, we are  told how we take too much; but sometimes it is just part of who we are.
• You dont have to be a problem solver; sometimes just listening is enough.
• It took me a long time to realize that [being abused] was not my fault.
• I had this belief that sex was for him and not for me.
• I had to completely re-train myself at what I thought sex meant and what I thought sex was to what it should be and could be in marriage.
• It took me a while to say the word rape and acknowledge that I was raped.
• I felt like God was calling me to help those who are sexually broken.
• God loves us so much, even when it just feels really broken.
• God absolutely designed us in such a way where we’re supposed to experience pleasure, and we should not be ashamed of that.
• If you’re focused on believing the lie that sex is not for you, then absolutely it’s not going to be for you. If you’re not going to enjoy it, it’s going to be painful.
• Talk to your husband. Tell him what you like. Tell him what he’s doing that feels really good.
• If you’re starting to be intimate and you think about past trauma, then give it to God. Talk to Him.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:00
delight your marriage episode 35.

0:04
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, the show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:21
Hey there, and welcome. Thank you so much for joining me today. This is belah rose. And I hope that you are just enjoying your day and thinking about what God has given you today, whether it’s the clothes in your back, the fact that you ate breakfast, or maybe at least dinner the night before, the fact that you can look up and see the beautiful sky, I mean, God is blessing you. And I just want to encourage you to think about how to be grateful for him today. Now, before we get any further, I want to make sure that you are signed up to go to my live a free webinar with me happening on June 9, just around the corner at 8pm. Make sure that you are there Eastern Standard Time, it is called How to make him wild for you the five secrets to receive love and passion and God’s plan, I’m going to really dial down and give you the keys that I believe God really wants women in marriages to know and the last webinar my husband actually attended, I usually just close it off to only wives. And he was so kind to share with me afterwards that it made a huge impact on him. And he said that, it seems like you’re a man, but you have a woman’s voice. So that’s pretty encouraging that it sounds like I’m getting it right. And I do believe that God has been so generous in my marriage. And I really share those keys. And the last couple webinars I’ve had wives that literally have been married a woman reached out to me 44 years and she said she still learned something. And another wife said that literally her intimacy was different that night, someone else reached out to me, and specifically said that, using my advice that her husband said, you can have anything that you want, at least for a while. So I would love to have you is free. And it’s also very easy. If you’ve never been on a webinar, you just sign up, delight your marriage.com/webinar. And then I will send you all the information to get on there, easy peasy. But it will be live and is already changing marriages by God’s grace. So please join me there. I want to dive into Dr. Jessica macneice’s information because she’s not only a sex therapist, a psychologist, but also she’s become a friend. And she has got some wonderful insights coming from her background of absolute injustice and abuse that she shares. And then the process she went through with God to understand what sexuality truly is about as she’s become a psychologist and sex therapist. But she has got really kind, honest truth she’s giving from her own life and her own story as well. So let’s listen in

3:26
All right, well, welcome back to let your marriage listener I am really glad that you’re joining me today. I’ve got a special guest with me. Jessica mcleese. Actually, Dr. Jessica mcleese. Hi, Jessica. How are you doing today?

3:38
I’m doing good. Thanks so much for having me.

3:42
Oh, absolutely. I’m really looking forward to this. And, and just going I actually chatted a couple weeks back was it maybe even a month ago. And we got a chance to connect and talk about each other’s businesses and dreams. And Jessica’s just got a great heart for helping people in sex education. And would you go ahead and introduce yourself fully Jessica?

4:01
Sure. Thank you. Well, I’m a psychologist. So that’s kind of, I guess, my primary description of myself. And right now I’m in Texas, but actually, by the time this airs, I will be on the road to Virginia. So I’m relocating pretty much right now as we speak in the packing process and, and getting ready for that. But I am a psychologist. So that’s that’s most of what I do. But the other thing I’ve done outside of psychology is pursue my certification as a Christian sex therapist. So I’m actually most of the way through that process, but still working on it. So I am allowed to use the title sex therapist. I’m not certified yet. So I’m still working on that part. And I’m also a Christian sex educator. So I work with several different programs and we’ve got a program and I say we because I’m part of a team. But we’ve got a program that we do together for teenagers that we’re building right now that we’re just really excited about. We have one for couples, one for singles. There’s one for men that I’m actually certified in, but I don’t use it much because it’s really just better taught by a man. And then there’s several other in the works that we’re building on and working on. So I’m part of a really great group of people and a great team that I just love being a part of.

5:17
That’s awesome. Yeah, it sounds like you have a lot going on, especially right now. So Oh, yeah. Well, tell me a little bit about your family and what your day to day life looks like if you could

5:27
share. And well, I have a husband, and we’ve been married, we’re coming up on six years in July. And so then exciting, and no, not yet. We do hope for kids. But we do have two rambunctious puppies, which is quite a bit bigger than she was supposed to be. Actually got them both as rescue dogs. And when we picked up, Maya, she’s our big girl. And we picked her up, she weighed about four and a half pounds. She’s now about 60 some odd pounds, and Josh turned a year old yet and oh my god, her calls are as big as my hands. So I don’t know, oh, my goodness, I’m going to get, but they told us she was a beagle. And they were wrong, for sure. So we’ve got our puppies. My husband just graduated this this last weekend with his master’s degree in Literature and Composition. And he’s going to be pursuing more education. So he’s going to be going on towards his doctorate as we move to Virginia. And he’ll be teaching. So we are a busy little couple. And day in and day out. We are just really busy. That’s life. Luckily, this is the part of the semester where for him things slow down. So he gets a little more free time now. And because I am wrapping things up at work and getting ready to move, I’ve got a little more free time, we will be spending a lot of it moving, but we will get to actually play a little too, which is kind of fun.

6:52
Oh, I’m glad to hear that. Yeah. Well, congratulations that you made it through his semester. Yeah, that’s also well, actually, not just a semester, but this whole master’s program. That’s awesome.

7:04
Yeah, he went through it really quickly. He’s pretty determined in a speedy worker. So he went through it more quickly than most would and we are just in transitioning kind of couple and do a lot of stuff.

7:18
Well, and that’s kind of the next question, I wanted to ask a little bit about your personality and a little bit about his personality, sure,

7:23
and where Believe it or not both pretty big introverts. And actually, I’ve heard it described now as Andrew avert, when you have part of an extrovert personality and part of introvert, you kind of go back and forth between the two. And that’s more what I would say I am I’m kind of a little of both. Whatever the situation dictates at the time, I can usually do. My husband’s definitely more of an introvert. And he’s also a teacher with junior high kids. So you can imagine that is stressful and difficult for him. Yeah, no, it’s very fulfilling. So you probably if you see us, we are not going to see us at a big get together. We’re doing a lot of that. Now, actually, because we’re moving and people want to hang out. We’re definitely more the type to sit back at a bookstore, or go to a movie together, restaurant, but we’re just not big on big crowds, which is a little bit different than some of my family. So get togethers can be tough. So we make it happen. But we really were more introverts. And we enjoy kind of quiet time and thinking a little more deeply and just talking with one another. And so it’s it’s hard on making friendships, but it’s been good for us for our Connecting time.

8:39
Yeah, that’s interesting. So you’re both kind of analytical and you like to read and you connect on that

8:44
level? Most definitely. Oh, that’s and actually the reading for a long time I was I was so built into the psychology reading just because that’s all I had, and all I could do while working on my degree. So it’s been more recently that I’ve been outside of that and looking at other books, and I definitely think my, or thank my husband for that, because that’s his world is reading. And so he’s introduced me to a lot of different books that way.

9:09
Oh, wow. Yeah, that’s great. Well, could you share a quote or a scripture that’s meant a lot to you over the years dealing with your marriage? Sure.

9:17
You know what, I actually have one that’s meant a lot to me over the last few months. And it comes out of Psalm 2714. And it says, wait on the Lord, be strong, and take heart and wait on the Lord. And what I love about this is as I studied it more I found out that there’s two different types of weight being used in that Scripture. And so one of them is the waiting that we kind of know what it means in general, the kind of sitting back and holding on and letting God move, I guess, giving him control. And the other part of the waiting is more of that busyness. It’s kind of like the waiter or the waitress we do at a restaurant, the taking orders and doing what you need to do and fulfilling whatever the command is. So it’s been helpful for me because like I said before, we’re so busy, we’re so busy. And somehow in that busyness has got to learn to sit back and just wait sometimes for God to do things that I believe he’s promised me and things that I’ve been waiting for him to do. And I just have to kind of sit back and wait. But while I wait, it’s okay to be moving. And it’s okay to move ahead. And and I think as women sometimes we’re told how we take on too much. And I think sometimes we do. But I think at other times, it’s just part of who we are in the multitasking and wearing lots of hats. And we can feel a little bit guilty sometimes when we do that for a while. And but I think it’s okay, I think it’s okay to try to find that balance and wait on the Lord, and also do these other tasks and things that we’re supposed to be busy at.

10:50
Oh, I really like that. I’m gonna, I’m gonna be meditating on that scripture. Thank you for sharing that those two different kinds of waiting. I like that a lot. That’s really great. Well, okay, well, this might really tie into the story I know that you’ve been preparing to share, could you go ahead and share a difficult season of struggle in your marriage with our listeners?

11:09
Sure. You know, it’s funny, because I think the one I was originally going to share with you that we talked about a little bit of change, but I’m actually going to share both, because I kind of brought that up. So part of the waiting that that we’ve been in a part of our season is waiting for a baby. And so we’ve been struggling with infertility. I guess depending on which one of us you ask, the answer might be different. But for for a long time, we wanted to have a child and we’ve just found that is not happening yet for us. Now, of course, the good Christian side of us can look at all the reasons why that’s probably positive right now. We’re moving. So being pregnant would probably be really tough while moving. When we try to look at our situation, as you know, we’re living in an apartment we don’t love. So it’s okay. But the truth is, it’s hard. And it’s it’s broken our hearts many times over. And we’ve both had the unfortunate real lives realization from others of unwanted pregnancies that they’ve gone through. And, and so that, to hear those stories of people getting pregnant, and maybe not wanting to friends that have gotten pregnant without ever trying, though, they’ll tell us things like oh, yeah, we decided to get off birth control, and I just never had another cycle. And sometimes do hear those things. Good Christian advice that people give us is so hard. And really, that is definitely part of why that scripture has been so meaningful to me. Because part of what we’ve done is we’re working on our health, and we’re eating really well. And we’re taking care of ourselves and going to the gym, and all these things. And and in my own schedule, I’m trying to release some of the busyness I do have, and trying to change things. So I’m trying to get myself prepared. And at the same time, just kind of wait and let God give me this gift that I believe he’s really got for me. So that’s been that’s been part of that struggle.

13:06
Yeah, yeah. And do you mind sharing, when you say the good Christian advice that probably well intentioned people have given? Could you share a little bit more about that?

13:15
Sure. Sure. Well, one of the things I’ve heard before is, well, if it’s God’s will, it’ll happen. And, and that’s a little sad. And I know people don’t mean it in a horrible way, but that it can be tested because because what I hear when that is said is Well, right now, it’s not God’s will for you. And I don’t think that’s true. I think sometimes we get wrapped up in believing if something good is happening, then it’s God’s will. And if something bad has happened, either it’s not God’s will right now. Or there’s some kind of fight that the enemy has is going through. And you know, in reality, I think, gosh, we live in a fallen world and things don’t happen the way they’re supposed to. But we’ve had God’s grace, and God loves us so much. And even when it just feels really broken, and it feels like God’s so far away, or we’re waiting so long. And he still has his hand on this. And I, you know, I can’t explain why things are happening, the way they’re happening. I can try to look at the positive and see the good in it. But the truth is, I don’t know. I don’t know why it’s happening. But I don’t believe it’s out of God’s will for us to have a kid. Right. And one of the others I was given, and again, I know it wasn’t meant ugly in any way at all, but one of the others I was given was that. That is how was it said to me, it was said, God opens and closes the womb. And I was told pray in your room. But the thought of course was so God closes the womb, are you are you telling me right now that God is close to my womb? What a horrible burden to bear to believe that God would do something so heinous as So I think, you know, people are so well intentioned, I’ve been told, like, just have just have more faith, and, you know, pray about it. And all these things that, of course I’ve been doing. And it doesn’t help necessarily to hear those. I would say if you know, as somebody that’s struggling with infertility, and you’re wanting to be a blessing to them and wanting to help them, probably the way to say that the, the more helpful approach would be to say something like I’m praying for you, or I love you, and I’m sorry, you’re going through this. That’s more helpful than then thanks. I pray about it. Sister Have a little faith.

15:40
Yeah, yeah. Would it be helpful? I’m so grateful that you’re sharing that because that was exactly my question. Would it be helpful if someone even acknowledged what you’re going through? You know, in terms of I’m praying for you to have a baby, sometimes people are concerned about even just admitting that this is really hard is not helpful. I mean, what what would you prefer? What do you think? Yeah,

16:02
I think, you know, I think it’s okay to say, this is really hard. And I get that. Sometimes they know, sometimes they don’t. And it’s so hard to say, because probably every woman needs something different in that situation. And I know I’ve also I’ve heard before, when I’ve talked about our struggle, people give me advice about IVF. And going became treatment. And so, you know, I think sometimes in marriage counseling, we talk about, we tell men, Hey, you don’t have to be a problem solver. Sometimes. It just helps to listen, just listen to what’s going on. And I think it’s the same for women than going through infertility sometimes just listen to what’s going back and hear their heart and give them that shoulder to cry on in and just be okay with that being enough.

16:50
Yeah, thank you for sharing that so much. That’s I mean, it’s just so many, so many are struggling in that. And I’m so sorry about that, Jessica. Well, I’d love I don’t know if you had the second story as well, if you wanted to share that, or was this? Did this tie into it? I didn’t want to.

17:10
Yeah, no, actually, they’re they’re pretty different, really? And oh, okay. The other part of that? Because the question really is, what was one of the struggles you had early in marriage? Yeah, for me, part of my struggle actually came from events that happened long before I met my husband. I was sexually abused. Many times over in high school by people, it was a bad high school experience, actually. But every year I had had something new start in it started with molestation. And I was abusing alcohol at the time. And I was checking, Id 14, I guess 15 And, and drinking pretty heavily. And so for a long time, I blamed myself for that. It actually, it took me a long time to realize even though I was drunk, and going over to these parties, it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t my fault. But I took that into marriage. And what’s amazing is I really thought that I hadn’t I thought that I was healed, I thought that I was I thought that I was in a good place. But it wasn’t long after being married, that I realized that I wasn’t in such a good place. And so anytime that my husband and I would get into a moment where we’d want to be intimate, you I would really kind of take it as well. He’s using me. And I knew that he enjoyed it. And I knew that that I sometimes enjoyed it. But I had so much thought of I’m being used. This is all you know, this is all guys care about, of course, it’s going to happen in marriage. And I’d heard a lot of bad advice too, because before I got married, I had several people tell me Well, you know, if he if he does something good reward him, you need to give them sex. And so it was worth it, you need to do this and reward him. And so I really did have this belief that that sex was for him and not for me. And it took a long time. In fact, it took until I decided to take some courses and learn more about sex education, which was just a God thing for me. But it took taking those classes where I realized how seriously impacted I still was by my own past, and how much grace I needed to not just receive from God, but to give to myself, and then also to my husband. So I had to completely retrain myself of what I thought sex meant, and what I thought sex was to what it should be and could be in marriage. So that took a lot of work. And you know, luckily my husband was able to stay with me through that. I’m sure it drove him nuts at times. But but we’ve grown a lot in that area. And we’ve been able to have very frank and open discussions now. Which was certainly not the case at the beginning. It was ugly at the beginning. Wow.

19:49
So first of all, can I just back up a little bit and just understand when you say sexual abuse when you were young so that so that involves going to parties and not knowing what was happening. And then we just had an interview with a woman who talks a lot about the mentality of a rapist. And so often nowadays, we, we think that okay, the woman’s of the wrongs, you know, we act like it’s the victims fault constantly. And, and and really I mean this mentality of rape. So often we don’t call it rape outright because we act like somehow the just the fact that the woman was there, she’s an open target or something along those lines. It’s horrible. And so that’s probably something you really had to deal with, in getting over this. Through this.

20:34
Yeah, for sure. I actually, I went to counseling. I think for two years, I want to say it was for a couple of years. So I, I, God just took me so many places, really the kind of thing that I was, I was in the church the last time it happened. My My dad was a preacher at the church I was at and so I was attending a church in the last kind of big event was the guy that I was dating at the time was actually engaged to him. And, and we really horrible relationship. And he was a drug addict. And there was a moment in the Sunday school class that we went through that my dad happened to be the teacher of so he was leading the Sunday school class, and the guy and I’m not gonna say his name, because you know, sure. The guy that I was dating, said something to me and, and what it was actually about, I had told him about a case. And I had been raped by a guy who was a black guy. The guy that I was dating at the time the guy was engaged to at the time was a white guy, he was also fairly racist, actually, with a racist. And so I told him about this story. And he had listened to it. And he was actually the first time he was the first person I ever told about what had happened to me. So I told him about it. And then, because he was racist, he had a real issue with it, but I didn’t know that at first. Yeah. So right before that Sunday school class, we had actually gone to breakfast together. And he for some reason, he just, he asked me if I’d ever slept with a black guy. And I kind of didn’t know how to handle it, because I was thinking, Oh, my goodness, I told you this story. And the answer was that that’s the one I told you about. And, and I thought, certainly he remembers it was a rave, like, certainly he gets that. And he got very angry. And he sped me over to church. And he dropped me off as Sunday school, and we weren’t there. But about five minutes. We’re steaming, he jumped up and said he was leaving and asked me if I was coming. And unfortunately, I did, because I think I was scared. So I did. He dropped me off at home. But later he told me the whole reason he reacted like that was because he felt like sex would have been so much better because of these lies that he believed with this. He could never, he could never please me. Which was horribly disappointing for me because I felt well, my goodness, I told you this heartbreaking story. And this is how you believe it. This is how you see it. And so it took a long time for me to get to the place where I realized, okay, no, this really was right. And in counseling for those two years, it took a while for me to get to the place where I really been used that word. And and I remember telling my therapist at one point, you know, as like, it’s just easier to say it was bad sex, and I will just call it bad sex. And it took a long time for me to be able to say no, this is true. I was I was victimized. I was done wrong. This isn’t okay. And it’s not the way sex is supposed to be. And I really believe that’s why I brought it in to my marriage as well, because I had these deeply ingrained beliefs that had almost been proven true by others, even though I know it’s not true. Or had been proven true by others.

23:56
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, that I mean, and so when you you, when you talked about having to actually agree that it was rape with what did that do for you inside that you were able to let that go? Were you able to say this wasn’t my fault?

24:12
I, you know, I definitely wouldn’t say so. Not at that point. It’s, it took quite some time. After that. In fact, I remember one moment. And it was in prayer. It was a long time after this. So after that whole incident happened. I knew that I wanted to go deeper in my relationship with God felt like I was kind of away from God for a while. And so the way I did that was by going to school at a Christian college. And that’s when I started counseling and go to therapy. And then in that process, I became a counseling major. That was not my major, but he was yours. And so all this was happening and probably people around me Kenneth thought that I was maybe spinning a little out of control and trying really hard to do some things that maybe I wasn’t supposed to do. But I think the one for me that was the hardest transition was When I felt like God was calling me to help people that are sexually broken, yeah, and I remember feeling that calling very strongly and feeling like God was telling me this is, this is what’s happening next in your life. And I remember just breaking down and thinking, God you are, you’re talking to the wrong person, somehow you don’t know what I’ve been through. And never sure I’m hearing you wrong. This is, this is about me some kind of hero complex, because it’s not what you’re calling me to. And I remember just ending that prayer kind of saying, God, if you if you really think this is true for me, then you’ve got to do something because I am a mess, and broken completely. And, you know, I think for a while after that, I still was but it was in that place of being able to say, Okay, God, I’m broken. come fix me. Did he was actually able to start doing so damning years after that, and my goodness, I was I was married for several months before I realized, hey, maybe this is actually what’s impacting me. Wow. And I’m a therapist. It’s amazing how blind sometimes we can be to the things that God has for us, because of our own hurts and brokenness.

26:12
Oh, yes. And I think sometimes the enemy tricks us on purpose in those particular areas, because he wants to undermine our confidence in actually being able to help people if we’re like, oh, well, I can’t actually help them. Because here I’m having this struggle. There’s no way I could be helping them. You know, I think it’s a it’s a big deception by the enemy.

26:31
Lately, I was just gonna say, What’s crazy about that is people believe the opposite, too. So we get kind of stuck in these belief patterns of, of believing either Well, I can’t help because I’m going through this or believing I can’t help because I’ve never gone through that. You’re right. I think it’s definitely a deception of the enemy where we can’t, we can’t just rely on the truth that God uses us and whether we can do a situation or not, he can use us in powerful ways to kind of sit back and let him

27:00
I love that. Yes, yes. And, and I’d love to hear, you know, as, as from the therapist side, from the psychologist side, Dr. mcleese, can I can I ask you, you know, a woman that comes into marriage with a past of rape or an abuse, I mean, how, what are the things that she needs to kind of in her heart have either maybe gone through or, or maybe some steps that, that she needs to take having gone through what you went through?

27:26
Sure, and I you know, for sure, counseling, definitely counseling, and but not just anybody, I would say, find a counselor that you feel like you can kind of connect with. And I tell people all the time, if you are trying to connect with a counselor, you know, spend 10 or 15 minutes on the phone with them and just see if maybe they’re a good fit. Because if they don’t have 10, or 1515 minutes to give you, then you know, you may not find you have their full attention in session. I know I could be wrong about that. But I just feel like if you really want to know, if you’re going to be a good fit, spend some time before you go in. But if you go in for a session or two and feel like it isn’t a good fit, it is okay to leave. So I would suggest for sure, find a counselor, and some of its trained Now, that being said, the therapist I went to was not trained in working with any kind of recovery from sexual abuse or sexual trauma of any kind. But it was still very effective for me to go. But honestly, so much of my healing came from learning a lot about sexuality, learning about what it’s intended to be learning about God’s plan for us and our sexuality. Because really, I gosh, I mean, counseling was helpful, it was incredibly helpful. And marriage has taught me a lot too. But I think without having gone to these classes and learn these concepts of how God sees sex, I don’t think I would have gotten it any other way. So I would say educate yourself to spin you know, get in circles of women who are have a good head on their shoulders about sexuality of follow this podcast, ladies, it’s so good. You know, talk to women follow other women who are doing marriage work and talking about sexual intimacy. You know, I think it is I think it’s just a lie from the enemy. And so many women have been through sexual abuse. I mean, the numbers are just staggering, and really disheartening that God can redeem and make all things new but it but we just have to understand the truth. And sometimes it’s hard to read it in Scripture. So it helps to have other women speaking it over your life. So I would say those would be the two things biggest get some counseling, but get in with other women as well. That seemed to maybe be at a stronger place than you they don’t have to be completely healed just a little bit stronger to help you along.

29:47
Yeah, no, that’s really good. I completely agree with that. And I’m interested when when this ally came up of this, you know, well, he’s just using me or sex is just for him. Most The male is the one with a higher drive, the male is the one that really needs sex to feel loved. And I’m interested, how were you able to kind of move from that lie of he’s just using me, it’s just for him into a place of where you are now. Like, I’d love to kind of hear that process of how you’re able to understand these competing ideas almost. Yeah.

30:24
And, you know, I wish I had a step by step process. Of course, unfortunately, there wasn’t really a step by step. And, you know, I think it came over time, it took me a while to realize the impact that I was having on my husband in and I can’t remember the moment, but I remember different conversations with him. So what I would do is, I wouldn’t really initiate it all, because, you know, I felt youth wasn’t initiating. And then there were times when I would initiate right before I was going to start my cycle, because I thought, Well, gosh, if I’m not allowed or not able to have sex with him for a week, then, you know, what if he goes somewhere else, and so I would initiate out of these spheres, which of course, wasn’t any good for him. And so we had a bit of a cycle going on, that I didn’t even realize was in place until he kind of confronted me about not in an ugly way at all, but just told me, you know, feels like you keep doing this. And this really hurts me. So, we talked about that. And, you know, I remember another moment in, in, gosh, I, I don’t want to say this in a way that sounds too intimate or graphic. I’m definitely not meaning it that way. But there was a moment. There not our intimate moment together. Afterwards, I was able to say. And I think I just started I don’t think I said it. But I had this realization, all of a sudden of Oh, my goodness, we are one, we are truly one. And I definitely think that was inspired by God, where he was showing me this isn’t you’re not being used. This is, you know, the I created this, this is for you, because I love you. And so it was really kind of this beautiful spiritual moment in and I can’t tell you how it happened. I mean, I don’t remember anything being ultimately different about that. Except for this realization, I finally had that this, this really is us. This is us being intimate and becoming one and, and this is something God designed and God loves and God smiles that. And I don’t have a step by step. I have clips.

32:23
Sure, please. I mean, I just Well, I wanted to pull out from what you just said, of almost like, we can’t, and I feel this way constantly. I write about this, I learned about this. I read about it. And you know, I help others with it. But at the same moment, it’s still what Paul talks about. It’s a mystery at the same moment. It’s just incredible how this is, but it but it was cool to hear that you actually, it was through experience of like, Oh, my goodness, here we are one in this intimate encounter. And then and then and that kind of your understanding of it flowed from that is that kind of Yeah, variances kind of thing. Cool. Well, the tips that you that you were that you’re speaking of, I’d love to hear Yeah, what you

33:06
Sure. You know, we could talk about this for a long time, probably. But yeah, kind of some basics. So one of the things that people can do, we kind of call it watching from the headboard. And one of the things that people can do is they kind of get outside of themselves almost during sex. And instead of concentrating on what’s actually happening between them, the couple can get to where they’re kind of watching themselves even more than their spouse. Oh, absolutely. It really concerned about every little movement, and everything that’s being said, so much so that it’s just not that enjoyable, or that much fun. So one tip I would definitely give you is to get outside of yourself a little. And so it’s definitely okay to concentrate on yourself some and to fill those good feelings and to understand and take note of that arousal, but also to really try to provide that for your spouse. So sex is interesting, because it’s not just about you, it’s not just about your spouse, it really is about the two of you. And suddenly a balance there and trying to figure out how to enjoy that pleasure that you’re receiving Well, at the same time focusing on giving pleasure to your spouse as well. And then a lot of times women get a little bit caught up in that where it’s hard to focus on themselves, it’s easier to focus on their spouse. And I think that’s probably especially true for women that have been through sexual abuse, because that core belief is that sex isn’t good or fun or delightful. Right? And so I think I think that’s probably a core belief for for those women in particular, but for all women, it can be just difficult. So get off the bed post and enjoy going on that would be yes. And then the other part of that route is remembering that your spouse’s three dimensional so they’re not just physical body. It’s easy to remember physical body when you’re having sex, of course, but to keep in mind that your spouses giving their whole selves to you at that time, not just a body part to you. So to remember that, that you really are becoming one that every part of you is, is involved in that process.

35:14
That’s really interesting. I love that. Yeah, their whole selves are involved in the sexual in the sexual experience, that’s really interesting. Um, could you unpack that a little bit more, just to try to help us understand what that means?

35:29
Sure, sure. So, sometimes we have a tendency to see just this one piece of one another. For instance, that’s what makes pornography so attractive. And popular because you only see this one piece of physical body. And in fact, even pick the physical body that you want to look at with. So, we can do that sometimes, though, even if you’ve never touched any kind of erotic or porn. And we can do that sometimes with our spouses and just look at the physical during the intimate portions of our relationship. But the truth is, even in those moments of intimacy, you’re not really just reacting on a physical level, you certainly are. But there’s more of a connection that can be had. So if you, if you can kind of think about all the reasons you love your spouse during sex as well. You know, here’s a better way to say we focus on the physical, the focus becomes the orgasm. And so if you’re focusing just on reaching orgasm, then of course, it’s okay, orgasm is wonderful. But if your focus is on orgasm, or achieving the right pleasure, you’re kind of getting into that one dimensional aspect of the person. So you’re just noticing that physical, then. But the truth is if you can kind of lose yourself and everything you love about your spouse, so yes, notice that body. But notice also that the things that you love about them, think about the kind words, you’ve said to one another, and the commitment that you made, not only today, but my goodness, every day, again, you have to recommit absolute matter. So that’s how you pull in that 3d part, you start thinking about these other versions of your spouse, where it isn’t just about the physical act of sex, or the release at the end, but it’s actually more about the entire lives that you share together. Does that make a little more sense?

37:22
Yeah, I love it. I love thinking about it that way. I think that’s very good, especially for women, when we don’t necessarily orgasm as quickly maybe as our spouses or that it’s maybe the craving of the physical stuff isn’t there, but you still have craving in the emotions, you still have craving probably, I mean, I think we could call it the spiritual realm also of that needing connection with your spouse needing that oneness. I really like thinking about it like that. I think that’s beautiful. What would you say to the wife that, you know, maybe is grappling with some of the struggles of thinking like, well, this is just for him. So the only, you know, the only way that I’m making this work is for his pleasure, or whatever, for his, you know, needs to be met or something? How would you kind of help her to be thinking about it in a way that would make it more fulfilling for the both of them?

38:11
Yeah, and you know, that that does take some relearning, I’ll tell you because I think women are taught that over and over again, because what we typically see is if a woman seems to enjoy sex or talks about it, she’s given these ugly names like, or, or other derogatory names the word woman, and so I think, you know, for so long, women are growing up believing that sex isn’t for them. And even when we just look at our popular culture, you know, typically what they’re going to show on TV and commercials and advertisements for food and gars is women that are half naked. Rather than maybe Axe body spray, there’s not or the soap guy, whatever.

38:55
Yeah, there’s nothing like to

38:57
do. It’s not many, you know, there’s not many examples to show that women have those urges to. So I think there’s a shame sometimes it’s involved that women have to get past. But Song of Solomon is a really beautiful book that shows that, you know, this woman is looking forward to seeing her man and she talks about how great he looks, and she can’t wait to be with him. And so I think that’s a good example. So you very physical practical example is actually the clitoris. So, its sole purpose, the only thing it’s there for is for women to experience pleasure. So God has designed us in such a way where we are indeed supposed to enjoy this time with our husband in his even give us an giving us a body part that is only for that that’s all it’s there for. For the man while he derives pleasure from his penis. He also uses it to go to the restroom. Right? Right. No, it works for women. So we know that God absolutely designed us in such a way where we’re supposed to expect It’s pleasure and shouldn’t be ashamed of that. The Scripture even talks about that too, we can, we can read about the woman’s body being pleasurable to the man. But we can also read about her finding pleasure in his body and saying his body is strong and masculine and fun. So I think we can definitely see that that’s true. The harder part is allowing ourselves to believe it’s true. And I think there’s a lot of reasons for that, you know, the other thing is, women are typically the ones to kind of sacrifice and be the nurturers and take care of somebody else. And we have a hard time sometimes letting someone be that for us, that that is designed by God, it’s okay to sit back and enjoy your intimate relationship with your spouse. And it’s definitely okay to enjoy sex. In probably if you’re struggling with it, this one podcast is not going to be enough to believe it. But I would encourage you to listen over and over again to other people that are saying the same thing and start embracing some of that truth and believing it on your own if you’re going through something similar.

41:03
Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah, I keep going back and forth, calling you Jessica or Dr. McLean. Which one would you prefer me to?

41:11
Ethically okay to call me, Jessica? That’s

41:13
okay. But listener do realize we are talking to Dr. mcleese. When I say Jessica, because she you know, everything that you’re saying is so packed with all of your educational background, as well as your experience background. So I just love that. And I do appreciate that you pulled out this isn’t going to be a process. This is not a if there’s a husband listening, like my wife should listen to this and you for this to her, this one podcast is not going to fix it. But it is something that daily, I even find it it’s definitely in my first marriage, I really had to struggle with that, you know, sex is just for him. And, and the interesting thing, how interesting are, you know, God has made bodies and I know, this isn’t every woman’s experience. But for me, sex was incredibly painful when I thought it was just for him. And I didn’t understand, you know, so many dynamics of sexuality wasn’t until I really committed to learn this thing. But a lot of times, we can’t even begin to like physically respond in a positive and good way. And like you said, in an unnatural way, the way the clitoris was designed to respond, and all these things, if we in our head think that, Oh, we’re doing something dirty or sinful, or or something that reminds us of the past. I mean, I think that’s a very key part of your story on how you can help so many women is understanding that sex is a shame or something along those lines. I mean, can you give us maybe some more insight on what a woman that has gone through that particular trauma really has to kind of be do to move out? And maybe some other thoughts that were helpful? Yeah, yeah.

42:44
Well, you know, I do want to say absolutely, the way you were saying is just spot on. So definitely, if you’re, you know, if you’re focused on the past, or you’re focused on believing a lie that sex isn’t for you, then yeah, absolutely. It’s not going to be for you. It’s, you’re not going to enjoy it, it’s going to be painful. So absolutely, that’s spot on, because part of enjoying sexuality or enjoying that intimate relationship is getting out of your head a little. Yeah, now it takes time. And in a lot of times, it is harder for women even you know, whether you’ve been abused or not, a lot of times, it’s harder for women. Because interestingly enough, it’s kind of how our brains are created. So men usually connect, you know, one point to the next. And we need that in our lives. We women need that. But women usually connect 50 6070 points at once. So just about at any time, if you ask a man what he’s thinking, and we’ve all been there, right, where you ask your man what he’s thinking, he’s like, Yeah, and we don’t believe Yeah, because for women, there’s not a time when we’re not thinking about something, and usually several something’s that went, right. So it makes it incredibly hard. If you’ve been through abuse to go into an intimate time or an intimate moment with your spouse, and not have your mind just going nuts with all these other things. Be it as late as what you need to make for dinner after you’re finished. All the way to Gosh, this reminds me of so and so. And it’s not good. So I mean, our minds can can go crazy. And you know, a big part of it is like I said before, just trying to get that focus on your spouse and kind of off of yourself. So it’s okay to kind of go through an exercise and just think for a moment where where do I feel the tingles right now what feels good? Do I feel pain because if so, maybe I could move a little and communicate that with your spouse. But at the same time, look in your spouse’s eyes and talk to him if you need to. During that time, it is definitely okay to say his name out loud would get him so say what you love about it. I love your shoulders or your arms or whatever it is, so that you can keep yourself focused. Because what we talk about is what our mind is on. So we can have Lots of thoughts going through our mind. But when we actually make ourselves speak, our thoughts get more directed to what we’re saying. So I would encourage you, for anyone that’s struggling in their sexual relationship, finding that it’s really hard to stay focused, whether it’s from past trauma and hurt, or whether it’s just because it’s hard to focus sometimes. Yeah, I would encourage you talk to your husband, tell, tell him what you like, tell him what he’s doing that feels really good. If he’s willing to listen, guide him and direct them a little in a light, nice, loving way. But yeah, I would encourage you stay focus that way. Yeah. And for some, for some women, it helps to pray a little bit too. So if you’re starting to be intimate in and you realize, gosh, I’m thinking about past trauma, give it to God, God, God’s there. And he loves that you guys are embracing one another, he plans on that. So talk to him in that moment. Just say God helped me out here I want to be focused on my spouse helped me do that. And I believe he answers those prayers.

45:57
Yeah, I love those keys. Because I absolutely, fully agree that it’s not the easiest thing to say, you know, just just focus, you know, like, just stay in the present. And, yeah, I have a quick resource eight secrets to help women stay present in the bedroom that I’ll link up in the show notes. But yeah, because it’s I mean it but it’s similar to what you’re saying. It really is getting your words in line. And I want to kind of go into that a little bit. Because I love what you said, when we actually make ourselves speak out loud. That kind of brings that extra attention on what we want to be focused on. And I say that a lot when I’m thinking about affirmations before making love when I’m like maybe preparing and I’m like, I’m not really in the zone here. But I might then say it out loud that I really love this about my husband, I love that he craves this experience. I love that, you know he’s so in enraptured by my body, these kinds of things I’ll say in advance. But also in the I love that you give some tips about speaking in the bedroom. And I know, as Christian wise, a lot of times we think we have to be chaste and holy. And, you know, how am I supposed to say anything in the bedroom? I mean, could you give some guidelines for women that might be really struggling in that area?

47:11
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I wish I knew the exact scripture was I don’t, but the one that came to mind as you were talking, and there’s a scripture that says that the wife’s body is not for her, it’s for her husband and the husband, it is not for him, it’s for the wife. So we know that it’s definitely a good thing to delight and our spouses, something that can be helpful. And sometimes it takes a little bit of kind of training and processing and getting ready for an exercise like this. But it can be really helpful just to check your spouse out, look at their body and think about what are some of the things that I love most in and you’re doing this? Well, if you can comment on something about that physical appearance that kind of drives you wild, it does not have to be something that would be seen as incredibly intimate. Like, I joke about it, I love his arms, I always have that wouldn’t be considered this, you know, highly intimate or erotic area, but their mind. Yeah. And so I think it helps to look at that. What are those? You know, what are those places on your spouse, whether it’s his smile, or his eyes, maybe even his nose or his hair at what is it that you can say this I really love and be proud of that be proud of your spouse’s body. But beyond that, again, it’s not just physical, it’s all these other pieces. So think about those other things. You know, what is he inspired in you? How does he make you a little bit better? Because truth is, if your marriage is going well, you should be making each other a little bit better in some area. So yeah, iron sharpens iron, we help each other? How do we grow each other? So how does your husband sharpen you? What does he do that make you a better person? And what can you be thankful for, for him? So I would say concentrate on some of those things. And if you find that there’s just this disconnect. And I would just tell you, that lady listening, please know that it may not be you, as it is the man and so I would say if there’s this, you know, there’s this disconnect, and you don’t feel like you’re connecting and whether you believe it’s more on you’re more on him, I would say it’s, it’s a couple problem. It’s both of you. So the loving counselor that they can help you through this and work with you are another couple that can help you through this so that you can connect because you know, sex is a gift for both of you not for just one or the other. And not just one or the other is impacted when it isn’t going well. So, so it’s a work together on it and find someone to support you in that process.

49:41
Yeah, no, that’s great. Yeah. And, and I love that you you brought into it, you know, your body’s not your own and his body is not his own. And I was just listening to something recently. So I know I think it’s first Corinthians seven that it speaks about that and I just totally agree with you. That’s just brilliant to be talking about Thinking about that, what’s in front of you is your husband, and that’s your body and you can enjoy his body as if it were your own. And it’s kind of and vice versa. And, and that’s a holy good act. And I love that, you know, Dr. mcleese, you just, you know, give us that freedom, it is so, so important.

50:26
Yeah, that’s just such a powerful story. And thank you so much, Jessica, for being so open and honest with us. I know, she and I have been talking back and forth for a while now. And I really honor that she was willing to share some of the more significant trials that she’s had, I hope that you can relate. And you can have hope that God is going to do some amazing things in your heart as well. Don’t forget to pick up that resource, go to delight your marriage.com. And you’ll see on the right hand side, a little picture that says eight secrets to staying present in the bedroom. So pick that up. I’ve had some really great feedback that that’s been very helpful advice and insights. So check that out. Also, while you’re there, you can sign up for my next webinar. It’s coming up very soon. And it’s basically telling you soup to nuts, how to make him a wild with desire for you. So I’d love for you to be there live. It’s going to be a great time with the ladies and myself. Okay, God bless you. I love you and praying for you and your marriage by

51:33
thanks for being with us. If you loved liked or just found this episode interesting, go to delight your marriage.com and continue the conversation in the comments. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Karen, a DYM listener who bravely shares her heartbreaking—yet very enlightening—story. She talks about her own struggles with anxiety and depression and thoughts of taking her own life due to abusive experiences from  childhood. She shares about the more recent issues of sexual abuse that has  ravaged her family. Not only did these affect her individually, but they have also taken a toll on her marriage. She tells about how the frustration and emotional torment affected the intimacy in her marriage. Listen as Karen takes us deep into how common sexual abuse is and how victims have been silent under a blanket of shame. Karen urges everyone to keep an seek help from trustworthy people who can help and support you.

Scripture/Quote:

“Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?” (Matthew 6:27)

“Even a scared person can do a lot for God.” (Belah Rose)

You’ll Discover:

• How Karen went through childhood thinking that some unlikely things were normal
• How she struggled with “touch” issues and avoided of any type of physical contact
• That she found it difficult to transition into marriage with the baggage of her past experiences and fears
• How she dealt with her husband’s addiction to porn and what they did to resolve it
• What steps they took to be better individually, as a path to getting better as a couple and as a way of saving their marriage
• How Karen felt like the monsters of her past came back to life when a similar experience happened to one of her daughters
• How she had fell into the deep, dark hole of depression and how she tried to bounce back
• How important it is to speak up and not hide under the shadows of shame

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• The Five Love Languages: How to Express Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate by Gary D. Chapman
• Blazing Grace: Porn Addiction Recovery
• Covenant Eyes: Internet Accountability and Filtering
• Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous: You Are Not Alone
• NoMore.org
• Dr. James Dobson’s Teaching Your Kids about Sex series. You can find part 1 here. Part 2 here.
• Celebrate Recovery program
• Hot, Holy, and Humorous
• Intimacy in Marriage
• Fearless in 21 Days! from the Virtuous Woman Exposed blog
• The Trauma of Your Husband’s Porn Use: 8 Steps to Dealing with It from To Love, Honor, and Vacuum blog by Sheila Wray Gregoire

Tweetables:

• It takes a special kind of guy to be a great daddy of daughters.
• Because it wasn’t discussed, it was made shameful.
• You have to make sure that children understand that adults are there to protect them, not hurt them.
• Everyone I’ve ever trusted ends up hurting me.
• Punishment vs. consequence: Punishment is about making you hurt because of my anger; consequence is about changing your actions so you won’t do it again.
• Get help. Don’t make it a secret. Don’t make the shame worse.
• My sex education came from the movies.
• I thought there was something wrong with me because the women in the movies seemed to enjoy it, and I didn’t.
• Just because it’s a secret doesn’t make it shameful.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:00
to light your marriage episode 31.

0:04
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, this show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah. Rose.

0:20
Hi, there, this is Bella, and I want to thank you for joining me today. If you have never heard, the delight, your marriage podcast, I want to welcome you today. And I got a really sad, but very common truth is that abuse happens. And as sad as it is, it happens a lot. And it happens a lot to children. And I think all of us can think back to our childhood. And, you know, they’re just things that should have happened that didn’t and should not have happen that did. And, you know, maybe maybe you didn’t have that heart of a childhood, but maybe you were you perceive things in the wrong way that, you know, spoke something to your heart in the way, especially of sex that a lot of times we don’t hear about sex when we’re growing up. And then we think certain things that are just totally false. Or are you know, parents do things that are actually bad, like, a lot of fathers think it’s appropriate to introduce their sons to pornography, as sad as that is. And I mean, there’s just so many kinds of issues like that. And I think the worst part of it, is we don’t talk about it. That’s the worst, because we think that we’re the only ones struggling with this debilitating fear or anxiety or concern. And I mean, that’s what this whole project is all about is bringing those concerns into the light, and allowing God’s truth to show us what’s really going on. So I have an amazing woman today, her name is Karen, well, actually, the the names on this podcast are actually changed because I wanted to make sure that we protected her and her story because she’s so courageous to share what she’s been through. And with the hope that other sites that have been through similar things can have the courage to not hide anymore. So I just want to honor Karen and be grateful that she was willing to be so brave and let that be a help and support to each of you listening, that you also can be brave. And you also can talk about the hard things that either have happened to you or that you’ve done or the things that you know are going on in your heart that need to be shared. Karen is so brave to do such a thing today. And so I really want to just dive in and listen in on what she has to say.

2:59
Right, well, welcome back delight your marriage listener. This is belah rose. And I am just so excited to be with Karen today. Now Karen is actually a listener of the dollar marriage podcast. And she reached out to me bravely to share her story. And I just thought this is really got to be something that the listeners need to hear. And so I just want to welcome Karen, and thank you so much for being here. How are you doing today? I’m fantastic. Thank you. How about yourself? Doing great doing great. Thank you. And I just want to kind of dive in and just would you be willing to share about yourself and your family and a little bit about your day to day life? Sure. My name is Karen. And my husband and I have been married for almost 12 years. He has a child from a previous relationship, which is my 14 year old and technically, she is my stepdaughter. However she’s not a block of wood. So I never refer to her as a step I always refer to my daughter. So and then I have a nine year old as well. And so for fun. I’m a musician. I work as an office manager at a in a town close to mine. And then I play in music stuff at church all over the place, big Easter pageants, all sorts of fun stuff. worship teams. Oh, that’s so good. Yeah, I was in worship band when I was younger, and it’s just such a good, a good way to connect with the Lord with that’s totally different from talking and other kinds of ways. Oh, absolutely. Music has been such an essential part of my life since I was really young. And so that’s how I connect with a lot of things. I connect with people that way I connect with thought that way. And it’s just, it’s it’s more relevant and easier for me through music. Wow. Oh, that’s so good to hear. Awesome. Well, I know we’re going to dive into more of your story. So would you share a little bit about you mentioned 12 years of marriage, you and your husband? What are your personalities like? We are actually both very introverted. Which seems weird because a lot of times when your show I hear stuff like opposites attract, but yeah, yeah, both major introverts, so, and he’s a big geek. And he always says, First geek to nerd because a geek gets the girl. So right now I’m sitting in his office with five shelves of Lego figures and transformers. So Oh, that’s so fun. Yeah, yeah, little boy’s dream at my house. I love it. Well, there you go. It’s actually really cool. Because the girls are really in or like, when they were younger, they were really into like My Little Pony and Littlest Pet Shop. So they’d have these huge villages set up in their bedrooms, like going between them with a train in between them. And then hubby would take one of his transformers, like a jet or something and fly over to them. And then he would transform it. And he’s like, Hey, want to do coffee? And so that’s how he played with them. Oh, I love it. That’s awesome. Yep. That’s really great. Just to hear that, like a father playing with his daughters that way, that’s really great. He’s a fantastic daddy of daughters. And it takes a special guy to be a daddy of daughters, because, cuz they’re not. He’s not the rough and tumble tough guy. He’s the sensitive guy that takes care of his girls. Oh, I love that. That’s awesome. Well, I think we’re gonna dig more into that soon. Would you be willing to share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years? Sure. I actually have one from you. Which total good. I know. You said a couple of weeks ago, you said even a scared person can do a lot for God. And Oh, praise God. And my first was Matthew 627, which was can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life? And because I deal with anxiety, it’s it’s one of those things that really spoke to me. So even at the height of my fear, I can still do something for God. Wow. That is powerful. Yes. Even at the height of your fear, you can still do something great for God. Wow. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Well, thank you. I’m honored. That was a treat. Well, I would just love for you to, you know, I know. I just, you know, listeners, I didn’t actually dive into Karen story, because I really wanted it to be fresh for you all. First time, I’m hearing it. So I’m so interested in hearing about the difficult struggle or season, either in your marriage, or maybe things that trickled from before your marriage. And I know you’ve got this really thought through and I’d love for you to dive in if you can, okay. Well, this has gotten a lot easier to talk about after 15 months of therapy, just you know, yeah,

7:46
thank you. Yeah, I have an older brother who is mentally handicapped. When I was a kid, my dad was in the Navy. So he was gone quite a bit. And my mom was left to take care of both of us. And so when you have a child that has special needs, and you have one that doesn’t, you know, the special needs kid needs more attention. And so I just, I don’t ever remember being held or cuddled as a child. And, and it’s one of those things that it, I didn’t even really think about it until I got older. And I don’t think that it was intentional. But it was the root of some touch issues that I have, like, I just, it’s been a huge problem for me. And then when I was about seven, my mom was doing a master’s program. And my dad was TDY through his responsibilities in the Navy. And so my mom had to do like a whole bunch of extra internship hours or something for her master’s, and they didn’t have any place for me to be during the summer. And so I and I don’t know how exactly this all came about. I don’t remember a lot of it. But I was sent up to my grandparents for the summer. I remember being told that I was a little liar, and that I was beaten with wooden spoons and shoes. And and I don’t know why. And I don’t you know, there’s nothing that would excuse that behavior. But I can’t I I’ve just attributed it to, they were sick, not not necessarily something that I had done. That’s right. I remember being so excited to go back to California, just because I don’t I don’t remember most of it. But my parents and I have talked about it a little bit. And they they don’t know what happened either. But they knew that I came back different. Whoa. Oh, and tell me the age that you were seven. I turned eight that summer. Oh man, that’s awful. But it was my goal. I didn’t know what a civilian was until I was eight years old, old because my parents were military. And I didn’t know that. Everybody didn’t have a mentally handicapped sibling because we moved somewhere. But I didn’t really form attachments. And so it’s that thing. I didn’t know that grandparents were different. Hmm. So. So, um, so the next big thing that I remember from them was, when I was about 12, my grandmother came down and she gave me the sex talk, which began when all men will rape you. And then she proceeded to tell me the horrible things that men would do to you. Oh, my goodness. And then she walked me up the stairs, told my mom what she had done, about the discussion. And then it was never spoken of again, my mom never followed up with me, never said, What the heck is going on with this. And so that made the touch issues worse. And talking with my counselor about it. It’s been one of those things of because it wasn’t discussed. It was made shameful, which made a horse and, and I realized that now, but again, it was my normal. I didn’t know any differently. Oh, my gosh, and and how old? Were you at that point about 1211? Or about 12? Wow. And that was the sex talk that all men are gonna rape you. And this is the same grandmother that had, you know, been part of this abuse before? Yeah. So it’s just the things you don’t think of about? You just assume that this is this is the way everyone thinks about sex, that they’re scared out of their wits of men? I mean, is that what happened? Do you remember how you looked at men differently after that conversation? Well, I didn’t have any sort of a dating anything until college. Afraid? Yeah. So I think and looking back on it, now I can see signs of anxiety. And I can see signs of depression all the way through. Wow. So just that’s interesting. Well, and and that anxiety that kind of did it? Do you think that it just increased? Oh, yes. Throughout that? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that and the lack of stability. I never was able to develop long friendships. You know, some people as my husband can what drive around this town that we live in and say, Oh, my grandpa’s office used to be here 50 years ago, or, you know, I I’ve lived in the same house until I moved out. I did not have that I was in 12 different school districts growing up. So. Yep. And that’s again, it just goes back to my normal, huh? Sure. Sure. Yeah. Well, and so then, after kind of beginning to date in high school, I mean, college, it was college. I mean, what was that? Like? Yeah,

12:40
I dated one guy for like two weeks, and then dated who became my husband? Oh, oh, well, that’s fortunate. Probably wouldn’t have happened. Otherwise, praise God for that. So. And my parents, I was about 15. They sent me to see a counselor because I was becoming more and more withdrawn. severe anxiety when my grandparents would come to the visit. I just all this other stuff. So they sent me to this counselor. But number one, they never asked me about it. And I was slightly stubborn as a 15 year old. And by slightly, I mean, extremely. So they, I just fought it the whole way. And so basically, the counselor after a couple of sessions, he did some testing with me. Oh, yeah. When it was a guy and I was a 15 year old girl, and I was not comfortable. But he he basically told him she hates grandparents don’t make her see them. Okay, and I never had to after that, until they moved. So nearby. Yeah, were you guys friends? Okay. Yeah. So it’s just, yeah, it’s again, it was just my normal. And then I had actually started doing self harm behaviors around that time, I was doing eraser burns all over my, like, my arms in my hands. I still have some of the scars of them. And then I would lie. If and when my parents parents asked about them. I was really good at hiding it. I think most people who who do the self injury are so yeah, so they had no idea. Oh, they still don’t. Wow. Yeah, anxiety, but they don’t know how bad it was. Wow. And this started when you were 15. Or before that. I remember anxiety as young as five. Yeah, but it got really really bad as I was in high school. And there was one time I was I did something and I smacked my head really hard on something that my mom saw it and she reached out to like comfort and I remember screaming Don’t you dare touch me. And so that was I think the first time they realized how bad the touch issues were getting. Wow. Get I was on My church retreat with my, with my church and he’s an assistant lead pastor. And it’s actually his love languages to his touch, you know, his physical touches his primary love language and, and if anyone hasn’t heard of The Five Love Languages, it’s it’s a great book I’ll have it linked up in the show notes. But anyway, that’s how he feels loved. So he will he’s just a very huggy person not in any kind of an inappropriate it’s a very kind and generous thing. But it’s interesting that that kind of love language to you would be like terror and just not okay because of where you came from. I mean, clearly there’s reason for it. So that’s, that’s really important to kind of recognize and hear. So I’m interested know, how has that played into your marriage? I mean, how have you been able to kind of work through this stuff? Ironically, ironically, hubby’s primary love languages touch. Oh, there you go. Okay, there you go on it. Uh huh. My husband told me about a website called blazing grace, which is a website for Christian men who are dealing with pornography addiction. Yeah. And I remember the date. I remember being absolutely shocked. I knew that I had problems. Because it’s, it’s been hard. That’s been one area that’s been really, really hard for me is the intimacy factor. Yeah. And so I I remember crying myself to sleep that night. And, and feeling like this was all my fault. And I can say now that it’s irrational, but it still comes up. So yeah. And then he had told me that sometimes, like, on nights that we had had sex, he would go and wait for me to fall asleep. So he could go use porn. Oh, Cara. And so it?

16:52
Yeah, I thought about leaving. I’ll be really honest. I thought about leaving. But my oldest daughter was about six at the time. And the youngest was, had just turned two. And I knew I knew if I left, I wouldn’t see my eldest again. Yeah, and I knew my two year old needed me to fight for her. Wow. So I told Hubby, he had to go to counseling. Yeah, and hubby put covenant eyes on the computer. Okay. And then it was probably seven or eight months before I would even consider having sex with him again. And then I remember the first time we did he said thank you afterwards. And I felt like a whore. I was like, why don’t you just leave money on the nightstand because that was the reaction that I felt. So it’s just been that’s been kind of a whirlwind. So we would go up to up in the mountains. And we would go with his sister and her girls. And we would and then his parents will go up. We’d spend the weekend up there a long weekend. And so I remember talking to hubby sister about this over that time and working out a lot of stuff in my head with her. So I decided to use some of our health benefits and go see a counselor. Great. And on the second visit, have you went in with me. And this counselor actually told me that there was nothing she could do for me until he got fixed, which was frustrating. So have you started going to some 12 Step programs. Okay, so he found Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous because it later we figured out that it was like pornography and codependent relationships, but that’s the group where he felt most comfortable. And okay, and the group where he felt like it was helping him the most. Oh, awesome. And so, but he would every come every couple of months, he would come and tell me Oh, I screwed up again. And so I didn’t know if that meant he had viewed porn again. And like he had figured out a way to turn off the CEE on the computers. Or if he had just gone through the visual Rolodex that’s still in his head that is impossible to get rid of, unless you pray and and masturbate. So I didn’t know. I didn’t know what he was doing. I didn’t ask because it was hard enough. Of course, well, of course. And can I just ask a couple questions about what you’ve stored. It’s just so painful and heart wrenching, but it’s just going to help so many people. So thank you. So when you first found out when your kids were, you know, two and six, what was kind of the process of the plan was basically he needs to do counseling, and then you’ll think about revisiting sexual intimacy. Is that how it kind of played out? It just ended up being more of this is what you need to do in order for me to stay? Okay, yeah. And he at one point came to me and basically said, Are we ever going to have sex again? And I just looked at him and said, I don’t know. Yeah, so, so painful. And tell me I mean, there are men that listen to this. So this is geared for women. But what were the emotions that you were going through? When you found this out? Can you share some of that, I think it would be the equivalent to someone going into shock, like literally going into shock. It triggered a huge anxiety attack. And I didn’t trust anyone, not just him. But I didn’t trust anyone for a long time, because everyone I’ve ever trusted ends up hurting me. And that has more to do with the human factor of things, rather. And you know, I can look back at things and say, there, it wasn’t intentional. But every person disappointed me or hurt me somehow, whether it was physically or emotionally. Sure. Yeah. And how do you of course, how do you safeguard yourself against that? Well, you just don’t let anyone close. Right? Right. And that’s exactly what the enemy wants is for us to all isolate ourselves. Never trust again, and be a ball of mess, which, you know, God can’t use. So. Okay, so here’s the question then. So how did things kind of I mean, how have you come through this? What was the process? So he started going to the Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous, and I’m going to link those things up in the show notes for sure. Because these are huge resources. What happened next? Well, we found out that my younger daughter needs to be tested for Asperger’s Syndrome. A couple days later, I was released from my job of eight years. Oh, man. And then the next day, we got a call that my oldest daughter who was my stepdaughter had been sexually abused by her stepfather. Oh my gosh.

21:56
So that was about the worst week of my life. Between everything that was happening with my girls. Wow. Okay, so So how did you who called you I mean, how did this even happen? She, my oldest daughter, who was 12, at the time, sent a text to her best friend saying, I don’t feel safe when I’m at my mom’s. And her friend’s father is a police officer in our city. Called it in and then another police officer showed up at Lily’s mom’s house and really told her mom, so and the mom didn’t know Lily’s mom didn’t know No. Well, she says she didn’t. I personally I go back and forth between how could you not, but it’s, it’s just been one of those tents, not comfortable situations. So then, the police got involved. And thankfully, he realized a dangerous situation, and then came to Lily’s mom’s house, received Lily and took her to the police station or something or took her to your house. No. Lily at Lily’s mom called my husband and said we need to meet here and told him what was going on. He and Lily’s mom and Lily went to the local police station where they tried to make a report and they wouldn’t accept it. Which baffled me at the time why they wouldn’t accept her making a report. And we found out later from the prosecuting attorney, that it’s because they wanted to hear the story from her first they didn’t want it to go through the police. They wanted to the prosecuting attorney to hear it first. So it was like nine o’clock on a Friday night when they were trying to do this. So So Lily came home with my husband that day we put extra because she was supposed to stay with her mom for a couple of extra days because her mom celebrates you’ll because she’s Wiccan and we celebrate Christmas because we’re Christian. So it’s in trying to work with the different families. Lily was supposed to stay there for a couple more days. We have a week on week off so she’s with us for a week and then she’s with her mom for a week. Okay, so Lily came home, she we put extra locks on her window. We put some safety put things in place like she wasn’t allowed to answer the door or she wasn’t allowed to answer the phone. She wasn’t allowed to get into her email. And a couple days later, she changed her email password because we all knew it as the parents we all knew for sure. And then we also put a baseball bat by the front door. And then also that night I called Child Protection to make sure that there was some sort of a record of what had done to her been done to her. Yeah, and I actually felt an enormous amount of guilt, because in trying to keep her safe the week before I had told her I said, Honey, one in four girls are abused. So between you and your sister and your two cousins, it could be one of you. Wow. You had told her that the week before? Yeah. But well, so was she. Just so was it a one time thing? It was sexual abuse. One time we think it was a repeated. We think it’s he started grooming her when he married her mom when she was four. Oh, my gosh. And so repeated. Yeah. Okay. So had you not shared that statistic? She might not have had the courage to even share anything with anybody potentially. That’s what my counselor said. I absolutely agree with that. Absolutely. Oh, my God, there’s a lot of unfulfilled years. I mean, years for this young lady, my faders, eight years for that little girl. Oh, my gosh. I’m so sorry, Karen next. So she the next few weeks were a blur. I couldn’t look at her without crying.

26:15
And so just every time I would see her, I would, I would think, Oh my gosh, exactly what my grandmother told me what happened did oh, camera. So it’s, it was just, I can’t, I can’t anymore. And so I made an appointment to see a counselor, which was a different counselor than the one I went to. And so I I went in and took a couple of sessions to tell her everything that had happened with with my husband’s job he he’s terrified of someone finding out about his addiction, even though he hasn’t used in a long time. He’s still afraid because it’s pornography. And so we don’t talk about it. We don’t Oh, I mean, that’s the issue. Right, Karen? Yeah. I mean, it’s just the biggest lie. The enemy has fed everyone. I mean, no, I mean, basically, any woman that’s listening, if your husband is breathing, he has seen porn, and probably used many times, which is horrifying, but it’s true. And the problem is we act like it’s not happening when it’s happening all around us all the time. And I just am thankful that you’re willing to share so bravely, Karen, because this is a huge, huge, huge thing that the enemy doesn’t want us to bring to light. You know, I know that’s its power. I truly am going, please. Yeah, I truly know. So I, I didn’t tell her everything. At first, I didn’t tell her about the husband piece. Until I had a chance to go to him and say, I need to talk about this. Because and that’s kind of what we’ve done is the people that know, we’ve talked about it before we’ve told them. Okay, so it’s not like I’m advertising from the billboards or anything like that. It’s been very specific people that know. Yeah, um, and what was Lily kind of going through? Since then, like, what is her journey been since this happened? You know, she started having problems in school, probably three years before, two or three years before when she was about 10. She was just being openly defiant in school, which is not her nature. But this child is doing absolutely amazing now has completely turned everything around. She’s studying on her own. She’s doing her homework on her own. She’s doing her chores on her own without being mad and asked. She, she, she gets it now and she has found her motivation. Wow. And, gosh, I have so many questions. Okay, so here’s the first thing is so I just know so many stories where there’s been molestation where there’s been sexual abuse, and, you know, maybe the abuse gets stopped, but it’s never processed. It’s never talked about. How do you find words? I mean, what are some phrases that can help people start to bring these conversations to light? I think it goes back to making it not normal. Okay, I think it goes back to, to making sure that they know that that’s not what life is supposed to be, especially in kids. Kids are so trusting. And yeah, and to make sure that they understand that the adults that are in their life are there to protect them. Okay, and not to hurt them. You know, we can talk to them and and we talk about consequences versus punishment at my house. Punishment is about making you hurt because of my anger. And a consequence, it’s about changing your actions so you don’t do it again. And so that’s That’s really big at our house. And and once we found out what had happened with Lily, we made sure that she knew that he would be receiving a consequence because of his actions, not because of anything she had done. I didn’t want her to feel responsible for that at all, because she still has to go and see her mom. She has to look at the faces of her brother and sister at her mom’s house and know that they came from that man. Oh, wow. Yeah, they have to she has to live with that. Yeah. And so and so this, this, the abuse being not normal is talking to a person or child who has been abused. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. And you know, with your kids, even with your son, you said, he’s almost two, you start talking about good touch, bad touch, secret touch. Or doing that you can start saying, honey, if anybody does this, you need to tell mommy, or you need to tell daddy, because this is not normal.

30:59
You know, it’s safe with mommy and daddy, if the doctor needs to look at your penis. However, it’s not okay with other people. You make sure mommy and daddy know, and making sure that they know that they can come to you. I mean, that’s the biggest thing with Lilly is and part of my guilt is she felt that she couldn’t come to me. What she did was normal. And I need to let that go. I need to release guilt. That’s right. That’s right. That’s so true. And I mean, thank God for what has happened through, you know, through you through being willing to share some uncomfortable things. And and again, how many people you can help and get out of the situations that they’re in and raise the alarm bell? Because that’s the thing, one in four. That’s an applet. Whew. That’s what reported. So in actuality, it’s more like one in three in this state. I don’t know. I don’t know about where you are. I don’t know the stats in New York. So no, it’s I mean, it’s, I think it’s nationwide, that’s one in four. And there’s a resource called No more.org That actually is specifically focused on ending domestic violence and sexual abuse in relationships. But I think it also is talking about abuse in children as well. So that’s it. That’s a resource I have linked up. But this is very horrific stuff. But also just importance now as a wife, right, it two things I want to ask you. One is, you know, if you could tell other mothers that are reeling from this, of their child, either finding out that this happened or have a suspicion that it’s happened. I mean, what kind of advice can you give them? Get help? Don’t, don’t keep it a secret don’t make the shame worse. Amen. You’ve got to go and talk to somebody and counselors are bound by HIPAA. You know, it’s not like, they’re just going to go and talk to their friends and say, Oh, this is what happened with my client today. She’s super crazy. If there’s a legitimate concern, they, they have to report it, they are mandated reporters, and then it’s up to the state to investigate. However, if you, you got to talk about it, and then that person can help you process and make sure your thoughts are rational. Because when you think your baby’s getting hurt, you are not rational. Oh, my gosh, I can’t even imagine. Yeah. And then the other question would be, you know, how has all of this so we’ve got the, you know, the hubby peace, we’ve got the, you know, this horror? I mean, how have things kind of transpired to, you know, bring you to at a place where you are still married? I mean, what’s happened since then? Not all marriages survive. Absolutely not. No. I, I did go to see a counselor. And I, and I worked with that counselor for 15 months, she was absolutely amazing. I tried a lot of different things. I’ll be really, really honest. I went on to an anti anxiety medication. And, and it didn’t work. That’s the thing is it didn’t work. And it made me suicidal, and it made me all I wanted to do was just take all of those pills she had given me. But my counselor looked me straight in the face and said, I can’t fix your youngest daughter. If you do this. It’s incredibly selfish, and I can’t fix her. Wow. So I also started going to a car program to celebrate recovery at a local church. Oh, and a friend had invited me to come hear her testimony. And she also deals with anxiety and depression. And I had never heard someone else in the church talk about it before. Wow. And she was talking about how she had been suicidal and how she had had these panic attacks and, and what it was like to go through them and, and it was just like, oh my gosh, I’m listening to part of my own story here. I totally get that. And also during this time, we found out that my thyroid levels were off. And I’ve been pretty steady at a level. But with everything with all the anxiety and the stress, my levels were just off. And you probably know, the thyroid controls all the hormones in your body. And so when that is off, especially for a woman, and especially going through trauma, it’s just like a pooch screw combination, it is just awful. And so I wanted to sleep all the time. I mean, it was symptoms of manic depression, of of wanting to sleep, wanting to isolate, being in dark rooms, never having the motivation to get up and doing the things that I liked to do not even be able to get up and cook dinner for my family. It I just couldn’t, I physically couldn’t. And for someone who’s never gone through depression, and they just say, Oh, just be happy. I Ragam I want to pray in the face. It’s not that simple. It is nowhere near that simple.

36:02
And so the good news is, she also found a different antidepressant, anti anxiety that works this time, and my levels are finally normal. So the medication has been a huge support, I work, I work at a job where I understand medications, and I know especially psych medications, it takes six, eight weeks for them to really get into your system and do something. And so it’s the waiting process stinks. But between different coping skills that your counselor can give you dealing with the issues actually feeling those sinking emotions, and my counselor is going to laugh, because I’m totally going to let her listen to this. And feeling it and getting rid of it. Yeah, huge. Yeah. And it’s the only way. Yeah, yes. It’s, like release it. And my coping technique for the first 35 years of my life has been like stuff and repress. Right. But throughout everything, especially with the abuse that Lily went through, right. Intimacy was a huge problem for for what you came from. Absolutely. I mean, and worse than that. I mean, it’s to satisfy you know, abusers, desires. I mean, it’s horrible. It’s horrible, the perspectives that you came into, not only came into marriage, but then had to suffer through. Yeah, well, and it goes back into the secrets or shame thing. Because everything was, was so secretive, and we didn’t talk about stuff, ate it shameful. And so by never having hearing anything that would contradict it. Right? It was my normal. Right? Right. So I mean, as as uncomfortable as it is to, you know, tell your kids by the way, mommy and daddy had sex. And that’s how you got here. Ready to do it? I think that’s right. I think Dobson has a series about talking to your kids about sex. And he starts with these books. And there’s like a set of four books. So between a, just three and five, you start reading like a where I came from Book, which has basics, it doesn’t go into details, but it has these specific age group things. And then at like age 11 or 12, whenever they’re emotionally ready, you tell him everything, you know, but I actually had that discussion with my daughter probably a couple of months ago, because I didn’t want her to hear about it on the playground. I want her to hear the first time I wanted her to hear it from me. And she does not know what happened to her sister. All she knows is that her sister got hurt. And that this is the younger one. Yeah, okay. Yeah. She knows her sister got hurt. And yeah, and that we’re doing everything we can to help her. Yeah. And that’s really all she needs to know, at this. I mean, even when we told her that Lily got hurt, she started crying, because she’s so adores her sister. No. Um, and so how are things progressed with your husband in terms of like, has he been able to hear you and been able to understand? He’s actually been really good throughout this whole thing? Because I, you know, I knew that we had problems in this area from the time I got married, you know? Yeah. My sex education other than from my grandparents came from the movies, of course, and how horrible Yeah, and we say, Oh, the women love it. They’re turned on instantly. And it’s crazy. And it’s fast. That’s the other thing, right? The whole thing is just insane. It’s just a crazy thing. It’s ridiculous. It’s ridiculous. It’s not true. And then, you know, the men have their sexual education through porn. So they think they’re not even supposed to touch the woman because they’re, you know, in pornography. The man’s hands are away from his I saw a talk on this anyway. But I’ll have it linked up in the show notes. It’s but anyway, the the men think that they’re not supposed to actually touch their partner they think it’s all about penetration. It’s all about the inserting announcer I mean, it’s all it’s just completely crap our sexual education in this country and actually in the world because we’re shipping this horror all over the world. So anyway, I know. So America, so yeah, I mean, God willing, he’s changing things. Thank God, there’s, you know, there’s ministries that are changing things, but we have to, you know, people like you that are have the courage to be able to say, This is wrong. This is absolutely enough. So please keep going. So your sexual education. So how that is infected? That’s exactly there you go. There’s the disease. There you go. Right. Yep. Yep.

40:45
Um, and keep going. And so my wedding night was not bells, whistles and fireworks. Right. And so, you know, I was very normal. I know that now. But yeah, right. And so I was, I was just thinking, what’s wrong with me? There’s something wrong with me, there’s something wrong with me. And, and, and again, that was my normal, because I didn’t talk about it. And that’s, that’s on me. So well, but that’s also normal not to talk about it. I mean, yeah, you know, you’re revolutionary to share these things. You know, that’s huge, that you’re willing to share that because most people think, even if you waited until marriage, all of a sudden, it’s going to be brilliant. So, but please continue. So so how did things kind of shift? I mean, so, you know, really uncomfortable, and you felt like you were doing something wrong the whole time? Is that how it went? Yeah. Okay, because there was something wrong with me, because all these other women enjoy it, but I don’t write clearly on the movie. Yeah, um, it’s. So it’s, I think the biggest thing that helped was one, my counselor reaffirming what I like she, she validated my feelings, and then said, let’s fix it. And so and then she basically told my husband to pull his head out of his butt and fix things because she said, You can’t keep doing the screw ups. Okay, if you want her to get better, you have to fix you. Interest, she can fix her, you fix you. And you can’t do this anymore. You need to buck up. Okay, he didn’t like that very much. And he didn’t want to go back to her after that. Because he’s like, I’d get picked on the whole time. I’m in there. I’m like, Well, tell me you didn’t deserve that. And he had told me the last time he told me he screwed up was last year. Yeah. So. And then. So I obviously the counseling worked quite a bit. But I also found the Sheila reg reg wires blog, the to love, honor and vacuum. Oh, yeah. And she had an article that she had written the trauma on a husband’s porn use and the eight steps of dealing with it. Awesome. And I had gone through every one of those steps that she talks about. And it in her blog has been, it was it was that first inkling of I’m not alone. I’m not alone in these feelings. And I’m not alone in this reaction. I haven’t found I’ve been bouncing around on the blog sites. I’ve looked at hot holy and humorous and intimacy and marriage. virtuous woman exposed it. It was really the the Gregoire site that that made it real. And so I, you know, went through and looked through a bunch of her old posts and sent them to Hubby, you need to read this and you need to read it. And he’s like, I can’t read these at work. I said, I didn’t ask you to read them at work. I just said you need to read them. Yeah, you know, having those cite those articles up on his computer at work is probably not going to be a good thing. Yeah, no, I hear it. Well, I mean, I’m grateful for his kind of attitude through through this because I know I think maybe some women are listening and literally I just spoke to a woman who’s who just two days ago, she was telling me she had five, five sons with this, this husband that was addicted to pornography, and she had to leave him because it just wasn’t he wasn’t stopping. And it’s just so so hard and so so sad and and they it just has to be talked about and has to be you know, dealt with head on. Well, thank you for engaging in that. I mean, Karen story is difficult and I don’t know if you have if you can relate to her story at all. A couple things I want to pull out from her story is one, she went to resources, she was able to,

44:57
you know, be open with people that were safe and trust. trustworthy, she found counselors, she found recovery groups, she found blogs, all of these things are linked up actually, in our show notes to light, your marriage.com/ 31. There’s just so much there. But she didn’t continue to suffer in silence. She wasn’t willing to let her children suffer in silence, she wasn’t willing to also let her own ignorance of sexual realities or the sexual education that she should have had as a child, you know, that she gives some great ideas for for parents to teach their own kids. But she didn’t just roll over and play dead. It’s not her response. And also, I just wanted to point out that she’s still on a journey, just like all of us where we can continue to learn, we can continue to grow. And she was kind enough to actually join me on a couple of the webinars. And she’s had great feedback. And because she’s willing to continue her journey, step by step day by day, and I just encourage you, you know, my coach recently told me Join the journey. And I just love that phrase, because that’s exactly what we’re doing here. We’re all on a journey, that I’m very proud of her and thrilled to bring you her brave story. And of course, the second half is going to be episode 32. But I just want to encourage you that if you have had similar experiences, one, you’re not alone, you’re not alone, one in four. And actually next week, we’re going to hear from a doctor who specifically researches all about sexual abuse and rape mentality and why our culture is really screwed up in this area. So I want you to absolutely tune into that. That’s brilliant stuff. Thank you so much for engaging here and you don’t have to feel ashamed, just because it’s a secret, find trustworthy people and, and bring this stuff to light because that’s exactly what God wants for you. God bless you. I love you and we’ll talk soon.

46:59
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Brad and Kate of onefleshmarriage.com. Together they bring us into the first few years of their marriage when they were too distracted by everyday life and it greatly affected their intimacy. Kate opens up about how it was tough for her to switch gears, from being a full-time mother and homemaker to being a wife who desires her husband. Brad pitches in about how he was too busy making a living for his family that he neglected his wife’s emotions and failed to understand her needs as a woman. Listen in as this godly couple takes us on a journey with their helpful tips and advice on how to vanquish selfishness in marriage and be more present in the relationship, especially during sexual intimacy.

Scripture/Quote:

“The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” (John 1:15)

“Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.” (Ephesians 5:1-4)

You’ll Discover:

• How the first years of their marriage were filled with obstacles
• As is true for most of us, they admit their individual selfishness caused most of the problems
• How it was frustrating that neither understood how the other felt
• How Kate sought God and He responded in a surprising way (about sex!)
• In response to Kate’s extra love, how Brad decided to become more aware of his wife’s feelings and needs
• What steps they took in order to become more involved, intimate and happy together!
• How your attitude in sex can affect how your husband feels even more than the frequency
• How men in our society often think “if they’re good in bed, their wife will want it more”, but that’s not the case!

Tweetables:

• If we bring our marriage to the light, the enemy doesn’t have the ability to attack.
• That kind of the whole point of marriage it’s giving even when we’re not completely there. -Kate
• I did not realize how important it was for the two of us to be connecting through conversations. -Brad
• I challenge women to go back to the time when it was just the two of you. -Kate
• At the end of a long  day, it was difficult for me to switch gears. -Kate
• I started to challenge myself to not give my wife leftovers. -Brad
• I started to think about how I could give my family ME when I get home. -Brad
• I had to be more than just a paycheck. -Brad
• If we dive into the Word, we see what He is calling wives to do. -Kate
• By the time we started talking about what has changed, she was seeing changes in me that I was not intentionally doing. It was a response from my feeling love from her, so I wanted to make her feel loved too. -Brad
• It may be hard and yet it’s the only way to go. You have to seek out God and ask Him what you need to do as a wife. -Kate
• I felt broken because I desired my husband, but I didn’t desire sex. -Kate
• When you have a cycle of both people being selfish and no one is willing to change, you’re going to stay in this negative cycle. – Kate
• When she changed and I felt really loved from her, it was so natural to want to make her feel really loved. -Brad

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:00
delight your marriage episode 29.

0:03
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, the show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah rose.

0:20
All right, well, hello, my name is belah rose. And if this is your first time, I just want to say welcome. And I’m really glad that you’re here. This is an opportunity where you can just spend some time investing in your marriage. And if you haven’t spent time, you know, praying for your marriage today, or thinking about how you can be a better partner today. I’m just grateful that now you’re tuning in, because for the next, you know, while you’re going to be able to listen to an awesome couple. And just before I introduce them, I want to once again invite you to night actually, is my webinar. And we’ve got some amazing feedback so far. I mean, God has been so kind to show up each and every time we’ve had this webinar, I believe it’s really helping people. So if you haven’t yet come, it’s called How to love him most. So it’s really about wives, understanding biblical principles on what it means to love your husband in the bedroom. So I would love to have you it’s really a special time. Again, it’s eight o’clock Eastern Standard Time. And you can sign right up at delight your marriage.com/webinar if you’re listening to this, in the future, go to that URL as well, because the next live free, anonymous, but plenty of spice and biblical principles will be at that web address, delight your marriage.com/webinar. So today, Kate and Brad from one flesh marriage, they’re going to be talking about marital intimacy and what they write about on their blog. And I just am excited. This is actually the first time I’ve had a couple on the show, which is a new dynamic, but it also they each have such great insights. It’s kind of pinging back and forth. So I think you’re gonna like that. And it’s really nice to get, you know, the female perspective than the male perspective. And they, they just complement each other really well. So let’s go ahead and dive in.

2:25
Hello, and welcome back. delight your marriage listeners. I’m really grateful to have Brad and Kate here from one flesh, marriage calm. And they are going to be talking a little bit about their journey. And this is the first time at delight your marriage. We have a couple on. So this is going to be fun. And welcome Brad and Kate, I’m so glad you’re here.

2:46
We’re glad to be here. Thanks for having us.

2:47
Thanks for having us.

2:49
Absolutely, absolutely. So I want to just dive in. Would you all kind of introduce yourself, your family, and a little bit about your day to day life?

2:59
Sure. Um, we Brad and I have been together for over 20 years, we’ve been married for 15 We were highschool sweethearts. So grew up in the same area. And we now live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. And Brad is a pastor at our church. He’s pastor of small groups and reengage which is our marriage ministry. And I am home with my kids currently two of which we have in public school and our youngest, we’re still homeschooling on top of that I do photography as a side business. And yeah, we were just passionate about marriage because God has worked worked really good things in our marriage. And so we do the local, the marriage ministry at our church, but also have our online ministry and just just really passionate about connecting with people and working on marriages and seeing how we can kind of revolutionize talking about marriage in church and getting people good information. And yeah, just really getting the word out there that God’s plan is good. And that though we may struggle at times, we don’t have to isolate ourselves and deal with it on our own. So that’s that’s kind of where we’re at. Currently.

4:19
Yeah, that’s awesome. And I want to dive into I feel like I already have three questions to ask you, but could you tell me a little bit about the both of your personalities and how that works together? Sure. You guys.

4:33
Okay. We’re personalities. That’s it? That’s a good question. I am more the extroverts were Kate’s more an introvert, although we’re kind of both a little at the middle of the scale in that. So I do get my energy from being around people. Well, she is much more likely to get energy from either one or two really close people or by yourself. And so that’s something that we’ve had Learn how to balance some of the other personality things like I think she is much more the the pursuer when when a conflict happens that, that she has to get to a place of resolving that conflict and get through it and I am much more withdrawn or and would rather avoid the conflict altogether. You know, so we’ve had to kind of learn what that dynamic does to each of us and figure out how to how to meet in the middle sometimes. Yeah.

5:33
Yeah, that is so true. Gosh, I feel like that’s, I mean, that might even be a typical thing of, you know, women often need to talk through it in the men often want to go into the other room.

5:46
Sometimes, sometimes I’ve seen some some couples who it’s race Versa, male and female. But there’s a lot of times if there’s somebody who has that,

5:56
usually it’s one of each, not always Yeah.

6:00
Yeah, that’s a good, that’s good to hear that that’s a dynamic, you’ve had to kind of work through what what has helped you kind of work through that?

6:08
Oh, well, you know, here’s the one part of our story that that Kate didn’t say along the way, like, at some of the most challenging times in our marriage, I was working on getting my master’s degree in marriage and family counseling. And so that that didn’t really fix her marriage. But there is some times that after that, I’ve kind of been able to pull Okay, wait, this is something we need to pay attention to, or something like that. So I would say there’s some helps there, but it didn’t fix anything, any means. Some of it honestly, has been God, really working in both of us and showing us some of the places that we’re both selfish, and learning how the other functions is just a huge gift to them. And so I’ll I’ll say easily, like, there’s times where Kate will go out of her way, because she knows I want to avoid something and she’ll say, you know, it’s okay, we can we can have this conversation later, it’s fine. And give me that space. And that then sometimes, you know, makes me go, No, you know what I know you need to get through it. So let’s talk those kinds of things. So sometimes the giving in the opposite really helps.

7:20
Oh, I see. Oh, that’s really good to hear that that’s like a great nugget for anyone listening. Sometimes, just giving the space actually provides an opportunity of well, actually, maybe I can handle this right now. Right? Or, you know, in 20 minutes or an hour or something, maybe that’s what I need at that time. That’s awesome. Well, this whole podcast is really to inspire and encourage wives and wholehearted intimacy in their marriage. And I’d love to hear maybe a scripture or quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years, or than recently,

7:49
um, I was thinking about that. I mean, our ministry when we are online ministry, when we ask God, you know, to bless it, and I mean, because he asked us to share our story. And, you know, we asked him to give us a scripture to confirm that. And he he took us right to Ephesians five, which is what he was working out in our marriage big time. So that’s one that our whole ministry is built around. So I always like to talk about that one. But it was interesting when you you said, you know, something that recently God is working out and you I just feel lately as, as we’re working in marriages, and talking with couples, there’s just, you know, we hear so many times in the Bible, a theme of, of light and dark of darkness and light. And I just feel there’s so much of marriage that we hide in the darkness and with shame, and just, you know, feeling broken, and something’s wrong with me. And why isn’t this this thing that I wanted so much working? And so, Dawn, one, five, the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. And that scripture, I’ve just been kind of working out and thinking about it in my mind. And just this theme of that, you know, if we, we bring our marriages into the light, if it’s safe to do so in the church, you know, the enemy, he doesn’t, he doesn’t really have the ability to attack because Well, he’ll still try but because we’re bringing our marriages into the light, and we’re exposing them to Jesus and saying, Hey, I don’t want to do this on my own. I’m really confused. I need help. And we read and I just feel like that the church should be the place for that, that our online ministry is amazing, but that churches should be the place that that marriages can go and can bring their marriage into the light and it’s safe to say, Hey, I’m struggling in this area. Oh,

9:38
that’s awesome. It’s interesting that you mentioned in the light and the darkness, it’s something I was trying to pull it up on my bible where I was just reading in another passage, but I can’t remember exactly where it is but the light in the darkness thinking about even also exposing it to under God so you can you can bring it out in the open and not just be something you’re struggling with in your own heart but something that you can present before him and see God, what? What can you do with this where this is my brokenness work? shine the light on me what’s really happening here? Absolutely so much. Absolutely. Now, when you say that I want to dive into your story a little bit, what a struggle was for you all, because so often we go through these struggles. And we think like you said, we’re the only ones going through it. I think I’ve always found it really helpful to hear. No, everyone goes through struggles. Here’s a really significant one. Yeah, so so go right ahead.

10:30
Like we could share a novel on that. Yeah, we, yeah. We, you know, we were like I said, we were highschool sweethearts, and we both went to colleges and separate colleges. So we were super excited to finally get married. And, and, you know, for us, we worked really hard, but we save sex for marriage, and we just really had expectations and lofty dreams of Okay, now we’re, we’re finally getting married, everything’s gonna be fantastic. And during a lot of our dating, we were at separate colleges. So we spent a lot of time apart. And, you know, within the first year of our marriage, we were faced with a very different reality of, than what we thought marriage was going to be. And specifically, sex was a big misunderstanding for the two of us something that we both really struggled with understanding each other, understanding ourselves. And it quickly became a huge contention between the two of us and, and, you know, specifically it was, it was, me, I was, you know, we got married, I was like, This is gonna be awesome. And, and for all all purposes, it worked physically. But I started to, you know, after the first couple weeks of marriage be like, yeah, I could really take or leave this, like, it’s just not, it’s just not, I just I struggled with desire for it, and not desire for my husband, but just desire to share that time with him. And so it quickly became a source of contention between the two of us and I just was feeling so broken, like something was wrong with me, and, you know, decided sticking my head in the sand was better than actually dealing with it. And, and so, I would say that that was one of our most significant struggles. And it’s why we talk about sex a lot on on one flesh marriage. But it certainly wasn’t our only struggle, we were definitely definitely stuck in our own selfishness, and coming from being two single people to really struggling to putting the other first in marriage. And that included sex. But yeah, so we the first five years of our marriage, you know, I characterize him, it’s very dark, like, I feel like there was a cloud over our marriage, it just felt like we couldn’t shake it, anything we tried, you know, we try something for a little while, be intentional, and then it would fall by the wayside. And after we were married for about five years, God really sort of opened both of our eyes to some of the selfish, sinful things that we were, we were doing in our marriage, and kind of was the wake up call. And we said, Okay, we just can’t continue on like this, because we’re gonna end up like those people who have children and look at each other and have no idea who they’re married to anymore. Yeah, so we started to, you know, what I would characterize as be intentional, more often, but there was still a distance between us there is still a lack of kind of being completely known as far as we can on this side of heaven. And we were trying and I would think, I think we always say, we think at that point, we kind of had a good marriage was kind of that autopilot, like we can maintain this enough to, to make it good, but we would still have some, some heated exchanges and which are normal, but to the point where they would, they would bring separation between the two of us then. And then year 10. You know, through some really crazy circumstances, God’s just amazing. We were caring for my uncle who was sick, and in dying, he was living with us. He had cancer. And during that time, I was just emotionally physically exhausted, and just kept praying that God would break me because I just I desire that, you know, I just wanted to serve this man, and I want it to be broken for Christ and kept praying that prayer. And little did I know that the first place he would choose to break me was my marriage. And this is all things in our house are just crazy. And, you know, he just spoke to my spirit and said, you know, you need to do this with Brad. He’s the person that I’ve given you to go through life with, you know, you’re trying to do it on your own. And so I started to just really seek out in all sorts of ways just emotionally physically, I would just when we’d be done caring for my uncle for the night, you know, We would just go upstairs and I would just, I would just, you know, I just said clean to him. And so I would just clean to him and always talking to him and sharing and just saying, hey, I need you. But a lot of times, it wasn’t saying it and words. And so through that time, our relationship, just really, it just really started to evolve and take off. It was, it’s just amazing what God does. And

15:24
so, you know, through that time of crazy brokenness, God was able, my heart was open and willing to hear what he had to say about my marriage. And so that’s where the, that was the catalyst for our marriage kind of getting to the place where I say, okay, good, was nice. And it was certainly better than the dark cloud of the first five years. But wow, God has so much more for marriage that Brad Knight had no clue

15:53
what I was actually gonna say, you know, she shares that time, so much reflecting on the places where God changed her or impacted her. And I’m sitting here hearing it again, and just going, you know, I think that’s a huge part of our story is that he was able to shift in both of us to see our own stuff. Because I see those same times and the same things, but in the light of God was really showing me things that I needed to change, and I needed to do and how selfish I was at different places. And how I was putting so many things in front of Kate, and, you know, those are the things we used to have fights about all the time. And it really wasn’t until God got a hold of both of us individually, I started to say, you know, what, you need to work on your stuff. And, and that, that we saw some pretty significant changes.

16:49
Wow, can you share some of the details of like, what were the selfishness things that you would be willing to share sometimes that, that helps someone say, oh, that’s something I need to work on? Because they might not see it in themselves right now.

17:03
Yeah. For me, it was definitely, definitely, like the first five years, it was definitely sticking my head in the sand about about sacks and just being like, you know, what, I, I have no desire for it, for the most part, so he’s just gonna have to deal with it like that kind of selfish. It only affects me kind of attitude. And honestly, years, 510, we kind of talked about our marriage in increments of five, for years, five to 10, I was much more willing to show up to, to be there physically, because I was trying to understand him better, but I didn’t realize how much that’s still selfish, because, you know, he knew I was just showing up physically. And while that’s somewhat of a help, it’s not what God designed sex to be. So that was one of my, my big selfish things, probably the other one was that I would constantly constantly want to step up as the leader of our home to be the strong leader. And yet, you know, God really convicted me at one point, during this time, with my uncle, and he just said, you know, how can Brad lead when you’re standing in his way, because I, I, in his lack of stepping up, I would take charge of things, then it just became sort of a cycle of I need to control and, you know, I’d handle everything with the kids, and it would just be easier if he’d stay out of it. And, you know, yeah, things needed fixed around the house. So I’ll fix them or find someone who will fix them. And, you know, those seem like silly things, but it undermines you know, your husband feeling like he is the leader of your family. And so, you know, working on valuing sex in a relationship and seeing how in our relationship and seeing how, and what God wants to do through that was a big one for me. And then also just learning to give Brad the reins of our family and to encourage him as he’s doing. So to not just sit there begrudgingly, but to say, you know, what, you’re doing a good job. And, and now that I have, like, I just see the wisdom that God gives him that is just, you know, so different from myself. And so I think those were two of the big selfish things that, that I am probably within that just learning that when I’m done for the day with the kids, our kids are, we have three kids, our kids are 1110 and eight, and just learning when I’m done for the day that it doesn’t mean I’m just can check out like, you know, it was just so easy to be done for the day and be like, Okay, now it’s my time. And instead it’s, you know, it’s our time and figuring out what that looks like between the two of us and not just thinking selfishly. Okay, I’m just gonna go read my book or watch TV or whatever, and just, you know, yeah, so those were probably the big things for me. You know,

20:00
I’m so grateful that you’re so open about these things, because that’s a really important thing. I think that, you know, women need to understand to be open. And so I’m just so grateful these these details you’re sharing and being vulnerable in that way. And I want to just point out and ask your advice on, you know, you mentioned selfishness a lot. And I think a lot of women struggle with saying, Well, I’m not in the mood, how is that being selfish? Isn’t that me? Just, you know, being who I am? If I was in the mood, I would have to do that, but I’m not what would you say to her?

20:33
Well, yeah, you know, I totally was that girl for many years. And I would say, you know, there is a time and a place for that. I mean, I think that every husband should respect those those times when you’re just like, you know, what, just for me to wrap my brain around that right now is, is just too much. But for me, that was all too often, like, you know, I think that it just depends, you know, if you’re doing that, here and there or whatever. But I would say, that’s the whole, that’s the whole point of marriage, it’s giving sometimes when we’re not, you know, there, and it’s, Hey, God, I need to rely completely on you tonight. Because on my own, this isn’t gonna happen. And understanding very much, and this isn’t to guilt people, but you know, you for both you and your husband, it is the only place the two of you can seek out sexual intimacy. So, if you’re just gonna be like, well, you know, what, I’m not in the mood constantly, you know, that that can become a huge source of contention, and then that can become a place where temptation, you know, the enemy is going to use that. And my challenge would just be to, you know, I think for women, especially for if you’re working full time, or you have kids, it is sometimes hard to switch gears from, I just did the dishes, got the kids in bed, and now I have to think about you, you know, and yeah, um, but I think, you know, I try to challenge women to go back to that time when it was just the two of you, and you could, you know, you were constantly thinking about your husband. So, you know, take those times to, Hey, say, their husband, hey, just give me 20 minutes, take a bath or take a shower. And let me just shift gears, because sometimes it’s like, it’s just so hard to go from one to the other. And, you know, just learn those things about yourself. learn things about yourself about, you know, Brad, and I, to be honest, like I said, we’re an open book, you know, so night times, when we’re really tired isn’t the best time to try and, you know, share that time together. So understanding that about yourself, you know, if it’s, if if you can find a better time of the day that works with your schedules, then, you know, just trying to understand that about yourself. Yeah, I just, I know, that I’ve had to really think long and hard about, about God’s plan for it. And once I finally put it in the proper place in the proper priority. It’s amazing how much God has shown me through it and blessed me through it. And, you know, it wasn’t always easy at times, and I’ll be honest, there are still times I, I just pray, and I say, God, you know, I know we need this tonight. It’s not just he needs it. I know, we need this, but I know I’m not quite there. But I know that you can help me to get there and just try and focus on just my time with Brad and not the list of things that I need to do, or, you know, that kind of stuff. So yeah,

23:33
I was just gonna add, like, that’s certainly not a one sided list. I mean, there was a long time in our marriage, where I would, you know, kind of check out from eight o’clock till 11 o’clock in front of the TV, and then show up in our bedroom and be disappointed that she wasn’t ready to go. And like, you know, we kind of chuckle about that now, but I not only did that, but really had no clue how stupid that was. So, you know, I think there’s a lot of places where it was both of us who were who were not prioritizing the others need because I didn’t recognize how important it was for Kate, for us to be connecting emotionally in conversation and even expressing my desire to her through the day. Because she needed that to kind of think through it and get her mind around it. I didn’t ever recognize that and so then I’d be disappointed when she wasn’t ready at the drop of a hat but that’s not how she’s designed to be so it’s this was definitely two sided.

24:43
Gotcha. Okay. So and I was going to ask you if you could share some details on the selfish so that’s what you would say is that yeah,

24:49
well, there’s some of that that um, you know, I would say some of my selfishness what in in the sexual arena was definitely thinking through my own lenses of desire not really recognizing anything about her. So I think there’s that side. I think there’s there’s definitely other places I was selfish in a one of the bigger lessons that I had was just recognizing how much I put what I was doing at work as my giving to my family and my wife. And I still remember driving home one day, just mentally checking out from a hard day at work and saying, Man, I can’t wait to just, you know, do nothing tonight in that was my mindset. And it kind of just hit me of Wait a minute, you know, I’m going home to at that point, we had two kids and going home to toddler and an infant, a wife who’s been together all day, and all I want to do is check out. That’s a problem. And I just started challenging myself that I needed to give not give my wife and my left and my family my leftovers, but kind of figure out how do I give them me when I come home? Because it I have to be more than just a paycheck, because that’s not all I give to them. Obviously, that’s important. But there’s got to be more there. And that’s a huge part of that selfishness for me was just, I checked out. Yeah,

26:26
I’m really grateful that you said that I love that you said, you’re, you know, you started to look at your wife through the lens of sorry, you were you were looking at your marriage through the lens of your own desire. And you’ve had to switch that to be looking at through the lens of her desire, what, what makes her crave sexual intimacy, and how can I give that to her? I just love that. And I, I I’m interested, Kate, when you mentioned, when I just love both perspectives on this, because, you know, Brad saying that, you know, I had some issues that I needed to deal with. And in case like, well, I also had issues that I needed to deal with Kate, what would you say to the wife that’s saying? How am I supposed to feel sexy, and given this wonderful intimacy when he’s not there for me when he’s he’s not even making me feel appreciated, much less ready to go at the end of the day? You know, what would you say to her?

27:15
Yeah, um, it’s a great question. I think that, or it’s Yeah, I think that the thing that I say to women when they’re most struggling, and they they don’t know, you know, and they feel like, like you said, their husbands just not attentive or not kind of in tune with their needs. You know, the thing that brought about the biggest change in our marriage was me taking the initiative to do what I needed to do. And I think it’s one of the hardest things to tell people because they’re like, Oh, so that’s what it is, I have to change. And I, I get that, that’s tough. But when you have a cycle of two people being selfish, and neither one wanting to change, you just keep the cycle going. And the only way to stop the cycle is for one person to step up and say, Okay, God, I’m willing to be used by you in this marriage and do what you’re calling me to do. And if we dive into the word, especially in Ephesians, five, we see specifically what he’s calling wives to do. And you know, I challenge wives just read the part for you don’t read the part about your husbands, because you’re gonna sit there and say, he’s not doing it. But that’s not, that’s not a reason or license to not do what he’s calling you to do. And so, you know, Brad will say I was the first one to start changing in our marriage. And when I started to do that, he naturally wanted to start reciprocating, I

28:38
wouldn’t even say it was natural. It was like, there was that point that she was saying that she just really felt God saying, to cling to me, and she didn’t tell me that at the time, she just was that something was definitely different. And I remember, honestly, probably two or three days into that saying, Oh, this is nice. And then probably two weeks into that saying to myself, I’m not sure I want to ask what changed. I’m afraid I’m gonna make it go away. But the reality is, by the time we did start talking about it, she was seeing changes in me that I was not intentionally doing it was, you know, a response from wow, I really feeling love from her. So I want to make her feel love too. And like it, it really does work. It’s just really hard to do. And

29:33
it will it really, I mean, you know, I, you know, we’re still unwrapping what God’s desire is for sexual intimacy, and I’m amazed at the things that he shows us but it really does soften you towards each other and it you so much more able to extend grace and understanding to each other when you’re able to share that and so I would just challenge why’s that? It may, it may be hard and it’s some of the hardest advice that I I can give. And yet, I think that it’s the only way to go. You’ve got to seek God out and what he wants you to do as a wife, and just, you know, ask him to help you do that to be to make some of those changes that you need to make. And do it selflessly. Not wondering, or expecting response from your husband, for him to change? I mean, in our story, that did happen, and and people often say, Oh, so you know, if I do what God asked me, then my husband will do what God’s asking him. And unfortunately, that’s not a guarantee, because you know, we all have freewill, we all have choices. But I do believe it’s, it is the way to one of the biggest ways that you can bring about change in your marriage is to just step up and say, Okay, God, what do you want me to do?

30:48
Yeah. And I love the facts. Yeah, right. Exactly. Very good. I love you mentioned I, once I put sex in the proper priority, I’m amazed how God blessed me through it, which I, I just love that insight that once you take that step of faith and are like, You know what, I’m just going to go for it. And, you know, look at the rewards. And that’s amazing. Yeah, I want to ask, if you don’t mind getting a little more just clear on, you know, you’ve got the five years where it’s just really bad than five years of kind of getting better little by little. And then there was this moment when your uncle died or was dying, that all of a sudden, you just felt you needed to really give yourself to him? Can you just kind of share what what that means for a wife when she’s like, what does that mean?

31:35
Yeah, um, all I know is that I, you know, in that time, I was, I was like, the only way I can sway is I spent a lot of sleepless nights just just because of the just the stress and worry with my uncle. And it really wasn’t a bad time. For us, it was just a draining time. And so sometimes, I would just be sitting up at night, and I would just be talking to God and I read a book in that time. And there was a character in the book that just kept praying, you know, break me Lord until and pull yours. And I, I just, I wanted that so much. I just wanted to be broken. And so, you know, I just started praying a dangerous prayer. And, you know, I just kept praying it and praying it every day. And and God spoke audibly to my spirit and just said, you know, cleaned your husband, he’s the one who I’ve given you to go through life with to go through this with. And so I have to be honest, he said that to me, and I was like, what does that mean? Like, what am I supposed to do? So I just remember one of the first nights Okay, Okay, God, I can do this. After the kids are in bed, we’re upstairs, my uncle was all checked on, I just literally just went over to Brad and we were just snuggling. And I was just like, Okay, I’m just gonna cling to him, I don’t really know what that meant. But here he is. He’s who God you know, so, physically, I just clung to him and started doing that every single night. And I can honestly say that when you’re physically doing that, it wasn’t hard for one thing to transition into the other and, and many times we would, sex would be a part of that. But also, sometimes we would just lay there and I would just cling to him, and we just talk, we would just talk about, you know, my day and his day, because he was still going out being the provider for our family, while all this was going on and coming home and helping you with the kids. And, you know, and my uncle, he was a great help with that. And for me,

33:26
I mean, a big part of that time was, you know, we had conversations that probably every couple has, like, we’re going into a new season of life right now, that’s going to be incredibly busy for her because she’s gonna be taking care of her uncle and doing all of this stuff. And so I remember just kind of saying, Okay, for the next couple of months, it is going to be nuts, we’re not going to really have a whole lot of time together. And I just kind of almost geared myself up for that, you know, as I’m sure a lot of couples go through those times. So that’s what I was expecting, and I’m sure out of that came me going, you know, telling myself, Alright, I’m gonna have to do more around the house, I’m gonna have to be, you know, recognizing that she’s not going to be here for me. And then the total opposite was what was happening, where she was being purposeful about, you know, coming in finding me and asking about my day and being there for me and even just snuggling up to me, like, those kinds of things were totally opposite of what I’d kind of prepared myself for. So it was definitely a Yeah, interesting. Interesting, amazing time.

34:36
Yeah, I’m not sure that answer your question, but it’s a hard it’s a hard time to like Express. I just know God spoke to me and I wasn’t sure what it exactly looks like. So I just kind of stepped out in faith and was like, Okay, I’m just gonna cling to Him physically and see what Gods you know, that’s what God said. And we’re just gonna start with that and it was amazing to see how that within like three weeks, like the two of us were kind of like in awe of our marriage, which was kind of crazy.

35:05
Well, and I want to say it, it definitely comes out of a time of prayer too, because I will say this, this was God, making both of us ready to receive some of this. Because if I was still at some of the places I had been, I, you know, she would have been cuddled up to somebody who was focused on the TV. But, you know, God had been working with me on Alright, I need to drop some of that to make space and so, so that there was kind of his timing, and in all that to

35:40
Wow, well, there’s just so many great pieces of this, I just want to pull out one. One part that strikes me is, you know, the morality kind of question in this moment of when you’re caring for someone that’s suffering. And I imagine Did he die after you know, that season? Yes. So, so very sad. And then sometimes, it’s just amazing how God uses those really difficult times, where you’re just confronted with the morality of, Am I living the life that God wants me to live? And then maybe I’m not, maybe there’s some changes I need to make. And that’s really interesting. And then I love that you, oh, so clear that, you know, God gave you the green light to enjoy sex, he gave you a very specific, this is good. And I want this for you. Definitely. And that’s just, it’s just wonderful. Because I think a lot of times, we get it in our minds of wives, especially that this is not something this is separate from God, this is not my relationship with God, this is dirty and bad, or somehow, you know, and and, and I think that if we can just get a revelation that this is God’s design is huge. Yeah. And that this came out of just like Brad said, a time of prayer, where you’re seeking God wanting to be broken. And he says, Well, go have sex with your husband, it just seems so unlike what we think of God so often, but right, it’s so much a part of who he is and what He wants for us in our lives. I love that. I want to ask Brad about what you’ve I mean, what was that difference that you said? Well, I don’t want to say anything. But this is kind of great. I mean, what what could you just decide define that as what was it?

37:15
Oh, um, well. Alright, you know, I mean, we’ll put it out there. I mean, at that point in our marriage, we were probably that once a week, kind of couple. Yeah. But the change from that

37:30
was to twice but that was good. Because, yeah, really, like those last

37:34
Oh, yeah, that was the too much improvement where we had been, but at that point, we were and going from once a week to four or five times a week that that was noticeable, you know, that, that was definitely like a change. But even it was just her demeanor, because I knew how stressed she was, I knew how much she was giving herself, but then she was happily, you know, thinking about where my stress was, which doesn’t, you know, I noticed those kind of things and, and she was wanting to, to make sure that we were, you know, connecting and talking and those kind of things in the midst of all the other chaos going around. So I think that was that was part of that.

38:22
Thank you so much for sharing. I mean, it just gives I think, women just a clear kind of okay, what, what can I do practically? What can I actually do? So I just love that. So it sounds like you’ve kind of narrowed it down to one the frequency much more, which is awesome. And the second of her her attitude towards her demeanor, desire for it.

38:43
Yeah. And, and I would say, desire for just wanting to spend time with me, and maybe it’s right there. Maybe there’s a win there that, you know, my love language is, is quality time. So I was definitely feeling like she’s saying, hey, I want to spend time with you in the midst of all this chaos. Like that was definitely feeding my my love language specifically. So I think that was that was certainly part

39:12
of that. And I think there is that aspect of, I think women can struggle with this, of just checking the sex off like saying that we had it once or twice a week, like, I had come to realize that it was a need in our marriage, but it was like, Okay, let me get my one to two times in a week and check it off my list. So, you know, we can check it off and we can be done and the difference of just seeking you out for that because of the closeness that it was bringing us. And that’s not to say I can be completely honest that I don’t still go through seasons where I have to tell myself and I have to pray and I have to seek God and say okay, God, I’m struggling because desire is something that I still struggle with it but now, I know. It’s hard to explain but now I like know God’s good purposes for it. So I know that sometimes sounds bad, but sometimes pushing through is helpful.

40:06
Well, I mean, I actually don’t think it sounds too bad because I think of like, something I really love is going to the gym, I really love the gym. You know, when I leave the gym, I am on top of the world, man, you can’t get me down. You know, I spent time in worship music, I started talking to God, I got my body moving all this stuff. But there are so many mornings. In fact, this morning, I did not make it to the gym. And yet I know how wonderful it is. I know how God speaks to me during that time. And, and so I think that it’s sex, a lot of times we sometimes we need to get ourselves there before we can even feel the wonderful effects and, and I think that’s different for men and women a lot of times not all,

40:44
but and I’ve done a couple posts on this that a lot of times I’m not like, I’m not completely into it until we’re halfway into it like and I think that is a lot of times how women function. And so just knowing that about myself that Hey, okay, so right now I need a little bit more convincing and you know, whatnot. But once we get there, I’m gonna be totally into it. It’s not it’s it’s just my mind is there, it’s just getting your body to respond in the same way. And, you know, and that’s just part of how it is. And and, you know, people women will often say to me, and I hear so many times, why did God make it such a struggle for us then and, and it’s not always women that struggle, there are men out there that struggle too, because we definitely hear from them as well. I would just say that, you know, if it was something that came to us so easy as putting food in our mouths? Well, it wouldn’t be the blessing that it is because it would just be it would just be like any other thing you do during the day. And so it takes the two of us really, you know, working together and and having that selflessness of, okay, how can I? How can I please you in this? How can I it’s just, it’s just the dynamic that God wants to make it a blessing, it has to be something that you seek out and it’s a mystery, and you’re still unfolding it and unwrapping it. And as we grow and change in marriage, it changes with us and we change and so you have to continue to unwrap it and figure it out. And I just think that’s part of it. And though it may at times seem to be hot, that’s hard. I think it is part of the blessing.

42:19
Yeah. That’s awesome. Brad, can I ask how does it feel for you as a husband to kind of know the struggle with with Kate and just just kind of speak to women that might be concerned like, well, if my husband knew my desire wasn’t so high? Or if, you know, maybe, maybe even there hasn’t been some honesty in the bedroom of like, even wanting at certain time there? You know, there’s there’s a lot of dishonesty sometimes when it comes around sex and absolute. To hear what she actually feels about it. How does it make you feel?

42:49
Um, yeah, there’s, there’s kind of both sides to that, I think, you know, it was really good for me to start hearing her say things like I knew I was just showing up sometimes, because I was feeling that and not sure why that was because I think all men harbored this desire to make their wives really want sex. And like, not only, you know, they feel like, I think sometimes society says this, you know, if you’re good at it, then your wife will really want it. And so I think there is that sometimes that failure behind them that feels like well, if if my wife doesn’t want it, then that means I’m not good at it or something like that, which is really pretty silly. But I think that that feeling is there. So my like, it’s, I think it was honestly, during the time of our blogging when we had to talk about this a whole lot more that we started having more and more conversations about what works for you, what actually do you enjoy? What don’t you enjoy? And those conversations are, like, really important to have, but most couples don’t have them. If they don’t get to the place of saying it helped me understand this when you’re saying I’m need some more encouragement. Like to me that that doesn’t make sense, because I’m not wired that way. So what does that mean? And you know, how does that mean that you want it but your don’t yet or like, you know, just helped me understand that. And I think those kind of things, just understanding each other’s how our mind and our bodies work together. And how different they are, has been really helpful.

44:42
I would add to that, too, is just for women, understanding the difference, and maybe they don’t feel this way, but I felt broken because I desired my husband. But yeah, I didn’t desire sex. And I know that sounds easy, but I never looked at Brad and thought oh, I don’t want to I don’t want to have sex with this man. You know, it’s not he’s not an attractive, you know, I find him very sexy, very attractive. And once we would have sex, I would enjoy it. It was getting to that point getting over my own mind issues of gearing up and okay. You know, you know, we did find out after our son was born, our first our oldest that birth control very much lowered my desire level. So knowing that was was important, unfortunately, we were young when we got married, and we did not look into those things very well, we just thought convenience was the best sort of option. And, you know, I but, you know, I do talk to women lots of times about looking at other options, because it really can mess with your hormone levels. And but, you know, I can honestly say that I never didn’t desire, Brad. But as you know, my desire issues for sex became a problem, it would put a distance between us and I do think that he felt like I didn’t desire him. And I can see how it would feel that way. Yeah, yeah, but there wasn’t that like I’ve, yeah, I’ve always enjoyed my time with him and just find him incredibly attractive. And so yeah, but I do think one can lead to the other, like, if, if your desire husband struggling with desire for sex, and you don’t deal with it, eventually, you don’t desire your husband, either. Because you’ve just let it get to the point where it consumed you.

46:29
Wow, that’s really good. That’s really good insight. Because it’s, um, you know, definitely, I’m right there with you, I will absolutely. Look at my husband across the room, or, you know, when he’s doing pull ups on our chin up bar in our house, or whatever. I’m just like, Wow, what a sexy man I have. And then it doesn’t necessarily translate into the bedroom. It’s just like, you know, and so I just love that you’re, you’re sharing that now, when you mentioned burden troll, kind of dampening the desire. I just as a, you know, disclaimer, you’re not a doctor, but No, you? I mean, can you kind of suggest something that that has helped? Or has? Well,

47:07
honestly, I would just say, research, I would just say to any couples that if they’re struggling with it, and they are using birth control to maybe research it, you know, and no, we’re not doctors, but when I went off it and was pregnant with our son, it was like, the difference like, and I wouldn’t say, I mean, Brad was even like, wow, this is this is different, like, you know, so, and that was we had him at year four. So that was in our marriage. So like, that was the time we’re kind of, you know, just recognizing, you know, different things. So, my advice always young couples, is just research things and think about them and realize that anything you’re putting into your body changes your, you know, change things about you, it’s obviously keeping you from being able to, you know, conceive a child, so it’s going to change things. And just being an advocate for yourself and looking up things and making sure you’re understanding what something does to your body. You know, we’re certainly not preaching one thing over the other. And if somebody uses oral birth control, that’s totally fine. But, you know, neither of us, while I was struggling with this ever really thought about it, it was until I until we stopped taking it and had our son that I was like, Oh, this is different, better, you know, and we hadn’t had sex before marriage. So yeah, we were the only people we’ve ever been with. So I had no idea. I just started taking birth control, like, three or four months before we got married. So I had no idea. You know, and so just just understanding that anything you put into your body is going to affect it and change it and potentially just know on what you’re dealing with.

48:44
Cool. Yeah. Well, that’s, that’s great, great advice. And I wanted to just kind of, before we move on to kind of the next section I want to ask Brad about, I love that you said that in our society, we often men feel like, well, if I’m good at it, then she’s gonna want to want it more. Can you just unpack that a little bit more for what that means? Oh,

49:08
I think you know, men, not Yeah, this is a tough one. But most men not only have a desire for sex, they have a desire that they, they, their spouse enjoys it as well that it’s mutually beneficial. And, and I’ve heard from so many guys that feel like you know, their, their wife is just showing up kind of thing, which and they and they’re actually saying that sometimes that’s almost worse than when we didn’t have it because showing up is just bringing like it’s a release that that’s all it is. It’s not an intimacy it’s not a connection it because it feels like she’s doing out of obligation and I’m not doing it well enough to make her enjoy it. And and that’s that all of that is not necessarily true. Like there’s some definitely falsehoods in that belief. But I think it’s important that, you know, wives understand that your husband really, really desires to make this work for you. And if there, it’s not working, if, you know, whether it’s in the moment that it’s not working, or even in desire, it’s not working. Yeah, he, he wants to learn how to do better. And I think there’s a place where he just, yeah, sometimes needs education, and sometimes needs encouragement. And yeah,

50:46
that’s good. Yeah, that’s really good. And I wonder if it’s not just a conversation that a wife listening can have with their husband? Honey, do you feel like I’m just showing up sometimes?

50:56
How does that feel to you? Just that honesty, bringing some honesty into the bedroom is huge. And maybe, literally, maybe it’s not when you’re in the bedroom about to start? Maybe it’s

51:06
probably not.

51:09
It’s usually right after after? That’s the best time. But, you know, yeah, we heard from one we heard from one couple, this was a little while ago that she was just frustrated, because her husband did the same thing in the bedroom every time. And unpacking that. Like the reality is, there was one time back a long time ago that that thing worked. Well, he thought, hey, it worked, then let me just do it again. And it’ll work again, and so didn’t really understand that that’s not necessarily how she works. That’s not, you know, and just needed to unpack. How do I how do I functionally, you know, make her enjoy this, because, you know, I thought I had the secret formula, and there is no secret formula. But it’s, it’s helping guys understand that. And, and I think wives can be a huge help in that, in having that conversation. And just saying, you know, what, I really liked this position more, I really like, you know, when you do this, or I don’t like it when you do this, not as a negative, but just say, instead of that, could you do this, like, those are actually positive conversations that most of the time your husband would be happy to have?

52:24
Those kinds of conversations, we just have to enter them both listening really well, and not taking offense, understanding that it’s to understand each other better. That’s what intimacy is just knowing each other more and more. And I think, you know, too many times people have built up walls, and they just take offense when when somebody wants to have a conversation like that when one of the spouses wants to have a conversation. And so, yeah, just breaking down those walls and saying, I’m just trying to share, you know, from my heart, what works for you what I enjoy, and just trying to listen and hear each other and not take offense to what’s being said.

53:02
I just think that’s so good. And I actually misunderstood you, Brad. So you’re saying that the best time to talk about a good, you know, to talk is right after the afterglow of sex? Is that what you’re saying? Yes.

53:13
Yeah, that is, that’s often a really good time to have good conversations about lots of topics. Because chemically, emotionally, everything like you guys are, are in a place that you’re feeling pretty connected. You know, we often one of the studies that I love to quote often is, is that they’ve done some research on like connection in and sex and wives feel the most desire for sex when they feel the most connected in their marriage, where husbands feel the most connected in their marriage, just after having sex. And so sometimes, like that difference actually, like that often talks a lot about like, when you have a conflict, if your husband wants to have sex right away, and you’re like, wait, we’re in the middle of a conflict. It’s usually because of that, because they’re like, hey, if we just have sex, we’ll be connected and everything will be fine. And you’re, you know, the wife is saying, wait a minute, we need to get through this before I can even think about the desire to have that. So sometimes that after time, you’re both feeling pretty connected. And that’s a good time to sometimes have those conversations. If you

54:31
can keep them awake. Well,

54:33
they there are times that it’s perfect time to take a nap to

54:38
and usually so I just brilliant Okay, so wives feel the most desire for sex when they feel most connected in their marriage. And husbands feel the most connected in their marriage after they have sex with their right. Yeah. Oh, so good. That’s awesome. Well, you’re going to have to stay tuned until Thursday to hear the second half of this awesome interview. Just just just so good. So I’m going to also invite you to the webinar. Once again, that is tonight, and I am so excited, please set your alarm for 8pm Eastern Standard Time. And if you haven’t signed up, do so immediately. That’s 8pm Eastern Standard Time, I would just be so honored if you could be there with me. It’s live, it is free. And we really dive into what God has to say about your marriage, intimacy, and some spicy topics that you would be really surprised are outlined in the Bible. I believe God has some got some really amazing things to share with you. And I just keep getting feedback, you know, trickling in that people have really been impacted by that webinar. Again, I don’t record them because I want it to be an intimate real conversation between the two of us. And so it feels like the two of us just so you know, because you won’t ever hear or see any of the other people that are on there because it’s totally anonymous. But I would love for you to be there. I think God has got some awesome things he wants you to find out about your husband. So again, it’s called How to love Him most and you can sign up at delight your marriage.com/webinar Thank you so much. God bless you and we’ll talk soon.

56:22
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Julie Sibert of intimacyinmarriage.com. Julie is a wife and mother to 2 boys and is passionate about creating a long-lasting marriage with sexual intimacy as a big part of it. She believes that marriage is to be enjoyed by two “grown ups” who are in love and have the desire for each other. Listen as Julie shares her experiences with her past relationship and how she has come to realize that sexual intimacy, alongside friendship and faith, is a major part of married life and should be nurtured and taken care of. Join in as Julie tells us how she keeps track of “healthy” relationship habits that will surely affect your marriage positively.

Scripture/Quote:

“Enjoy the little things, for one day you may look back and realize they were the big things.” -Robert Brault

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

“The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the LORD, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” says the LORD Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful. Malachi 2:16

You’ll Discover:

• How Julie overcame the pain brought about by her past relationship
• How friendship plays a huge role in any marriage and why it is important to keep that friendship alive
• How it is majorly helpful that you and your husband make it intentional to spend time together
• How it is important that your spouse has no doubts on how you truly feel
• That God is a redemptive god
• How to get over your past and move on to create a more effective and beautiful life without the guilt and insecurities
• How to incorporate healthy habits into your marriage
• How faith is a big part of her married life and how it has been foundational for both her and her husband
• How Julie manages co-parenting and coping with the reminders of her past
• How she treats intimacy as a major ingredient in a successful and happy marriage

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• 
  • Pursuit of Passion: Discovering True Intimacy in Your Marriage by Jeffrey Murphy, Glynis Murphy, Julie Sibert, and Randall Sibert
• J from Hot, Holy, and Humorous episode: delightyourmarriage.com/2 

Tweetables:

• Put more energy into planning the marriage than planning the wedding; the wedding is just one day.
• The extraordinary happens in the ordinary
• Healthy habits are intentional. No one drifts into healthy habits.
• Marriage is a grown-up game. It is not for the drama queens and passive-aggressive.
• We make sure that difficulties don’t isolate us.
• The hard things in life draw us closer together, not push us apart.
• Hormonal birth control can be an assassin to sex drive.
• Marriage is a covenant relationship.
• Your past divorce or your past promiscuity don’t define you. You are defined by who you are in Christ
• I would have never asked for the pain of my divorce, but I wouldn’t trade one lesson I have learned through that.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:00
to light your marriage episode 27

0:03
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:21
Hey, there, this is belah rose. And thank you for joining me this is to the delight your marriage podcast where I interview wives and intimacy experts on what it takes to have a great marriage and great intimacy in it. So thank you so much for being here today. And I’m really excited actually to share with you that my next webinars coming up may 12, at 8pm, Eastern Standard Time. And remember, it’s totally free. All you have to do is sign up at delight your marriage.com/webinar but I just wanted to read for you just a couple of the comments that I would received just after the webinar. So here’s one Hi, Bella, I wanted you to know, it actually was different for my marriage last night. The biggest impact the webinar and your podcast have had on my marriage at this point is making me understand how important sex is to him and realize that I need to change and can change with God’s help. I think God use the webinars to point out exactly what it was about my past and Overwatch all it has been extremely helpful. So far, thanks so much for sharing. And there were lots of exclamation points in there. And another one, it was kind enough to share. Thank you for supporting intimacy and marriage Bella, we can all learn something even though I’m having my 45th 44th anniversary next month. Well, congratulations to both of you. I’m so grateful that the webinar has had such a positive impact on your lives. And I’ve had some other great comments, I’m not going to share them all. But I really believe this is something that you are not going to want to miss. The title of the webinar is called How to love him most. And we really dive into the Bible because there are so many spicy topics that you would be shocked that are in there. So I would love to have you that’s delight your marriage.com/webinar A quick note, it’s totally anonymous. I won’t be reading anyone’s name aloud. Don’t worry. Also, it’s not recorded. So a couple of people after each webinar have asked me for the recording. And unfortunately, I don’t record them, because I want it to be a very intimate private conversation just between you and I and some other anonymous people that are there. But definitely sign up again. It is May 12 8pm Eastern Standard Time. Okay, great. Well, today’s episode is just wonderful. Julie Seibert is just a powerhouse of really insightful thoughts. And you can tell she’s very intentional about everything she does, as far as I can tell, and especially about her marriage. I love her insights. And I think you are going to too, so definitely listen in and we’ll get started Welcome back, delight your marriage listeners. This is belah rose. And I’m really looking forward to today’s call with Julie Seibert, from intimacy in marriage calm, and she has got a great marriage journey that she’s going to share with us today. Hi, Julie, welcome. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you so much. I’m glad to be here. Absolutely. I think it’s going to be a great conversation. And would you be willing to introduce yourself a little bit to the listeners, a little bit about your family and your day to day life? Okay, great. Well, my name is Julie Seibert. And I do really have a passion about marriage, and in particular sexual intimacy and marriage. But a little bit about myself, I am married, and my husband and I have two sons, one who is 16, and one who is 10. And my older son is actually from my first marriage. And so that’s a little bit about my journey. And my story is I do have a past marriage and have been through divorce. So yeah, and, you know, my day to day life, you know, is a friend of mine said once. You know, I’m just crazy normal. You know, I’m just your average housewife and a person who has her own passions and dreams, and I do kids and they, I strive to be a good wife. And I’m running carpool, and I’m doing all that stuff. So my I don’t have any days that look the same. They’re all different, but my personality is such that I kind of crave that and like that, that every day is different. So yeah, that’s a little bit about me. That’s awesome. Well, I’m very much like you that I like the diversity of things, activities and stuff. So absolutely. thrive on that too. Great. Well, would you tell me a little bit more about your you and your husband and your personalities? Oh, absolutely. We would be kind of a good example of the whole opposites attract, in some regards.

5:05
He’s much more introverted, much more structured. And he does bring a lot of stability to me in that regard. I am much more extroverted, you know, I crave people contact and, you know, never met a coffee shop, I didn’t want to sit in with a friend and that sort of thing. My husband, I think we complement each other very well, as far as the things we really have in common is we both are, you know, really, faith is a really big part of our life. So that’s, that’s a foundational thing for us. We have very similar views on on parenting and on values and core values, that sort of thing. So yeah, we have similar views on finances, and how we do life. And I think that we really enjoy each other’s company. I mean, that’s the thing, I’m always and I’m sure we’ll get into this more. I’m always trying to stress to marriages, and when people reach out to me is, you know, there’s something so powerful about having a good friendship in your marriage. And I just think that has to be nurtured. And so we do, we do, we’re good at that. We take good care of our friendship. And I’m not saying Our marriage is perfect, you know, we all have areas to work on. But for the most part, we definitely have a sense that we have each other’s back, and we have each other’s best interests at heart. Hmm, I love that. And I’m interested, we’re going to move into the rest of my question in a bit. But I wanted to ask you just the similar views and values. Was that something that you both came into marriage with? Or was that something that kind of developed through different different conversation? No, I would say we we came into that we kind of have one of those kind of amazing stories, I had gone through a painful divorce, and my older son was only about two at the time. And it was devastating, you know, my ex husband left me and there was kind of a third party involved, and I had to sell our house and get rid of our dog. And I mean, it was just painful all the way around. Well, in the process of all that I had to find a place to live. And I ended up living in the basement of a house, this retired Christian couple had this basement apartment, and a friend of mine knew this, this family and so I moved in me and my little toddler son, and you know, it was a good place for us to heal. And I remember vividly, you know, saying to God, well, that I just I don’t know, if there would ever be another man for me, you know, because my standards were that it would be someone who obviously shared a Christian faith, someone who would not only love me, but obviously love my child, someone who had similar views as far as being fine, have financially good steward and not living beyond your means that sort of thing. And then also someone because it was a tightly held value of mine that I not have sex before I was married, I would, you know, hold on to that. And so I thought, you know, what are the odds that I’m going to find this man, especially at this point, you know, I was in my early 30s. And, lo and behold, right next door in the house, right next door, was this man who he had never been married, and he was strong Christian, and he had prayed to the Lord, he always wanted to be married. And he had said to the Lord, if you don’t bring me a wife, by the time, I’m 35, I’m going to take that as a sign that I’m supposed to retire early and buy a fishing cabin. Yeah, so that was like his prayer to the Lord. He laid the ultimatum down to the Lord, which, you know, you always you always have to be careful about that. So he turned 35. That March, this was in 2001. And we started dating in June of 2000. So I literally so we always say there must have been a grace period and his little ultimatum he laid down to the Lord, but

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so I always say, you know, I, I we are one of those stories. I did marry the boy next door. And so back to your original question. No, we already had each of us had those foundational things in place. We both had strong faith. We both were committed to financial stewardship, and we we both agreed that we wouldn’t have sex until we were married. So We got we start dating in June of 2001. We were engaged the following summer in 2002. And then we got married in April of 2003. So we’re coming up on 12 years of marriage here pretty soon. So yeah, so that’s our, so we already had some of that foundational stuff in place. So tell me how you and your husband were able to just not not have sex before you got married? Randy? Well, I think that one of the key things was is the for one, we kind of shared that value. So we kind of had that, going into it knowing that, that we wanted to maintain some sexual integrity in that regard. But the other thing from a very practical sense, I mean, because the desire for sex, even if you have that boundary, you know, that desire when you fall in love with someone, I mean, that’s a very strong God given desire. And so it’s not that we didn’t want to, but I think the thing that really helped us is one of us would have would always be strong. So when there were times when I was feeling weak, he was strong for us. And when there were times he was feeling weak, I was strong for us. So and then we were wise about doing our best to not put ourselves in situations where it would be easy to do anything sexual. So we were good about when we were spent, you know, obviously we didn’t live together before we were married. And we were good about our time together being out, you know, like dates and stuff like that. But really, when it comes down to us, I think it was one of us was always strong. When we needed somebody to be strong. And you went through the timeline? That was three years? Well, yeah, cuz we started dating. Well, it was probably closer two years, because we started dating in June of 2001. And then we got engaged in the summer of 2002. And then we got married in April of 2003. So I guess it was just under two years. But I do understand, you know, sometimes people are like critical of people who have short engagements. But I totally understand that it’s like, I always tell people, it’s like, oh, my gosh, the marriage put more energy into the plan in the marriage than planned in the wedding. Because the weddings just one day. And so I understand those kind of short engagements of under six months, because, boy, you get two people in love and the sexual desire is there. Through Oh, that’s so good. And this probably ties in well with maybe if you could share a scripture or a quote that has meant a lot to you. Okay, yeah, I did. Yeah, I did write down and probably lots of your listeners have heard this quote, but it it is a quote that has meant so much to me, it’s by Robert Brault. And it’s the quote, enjoy the little things for one day, you may look back and realize they were the big things. And I have strive to live my life in many regards by that quote, because I think the extraordinary happens in the ordinary. And when we are busy. And we are in a busy season of life, and you’re in a busy season in life, and a lot of your listeners are probably in a busy season in life if you’re raising kids. But I just really think that those little moments really do make a difference. And yeah, that someday you you’re going to look back and you’re going to see the life you built and it’s not going to be built upon the grand big things. It’s gonna be built on on the extraordinary that was in the ordinary. So. So yeah, that’s a quote that that speaks to me. Definitely. I just love that so much. A couple things I want to pull out of that is the life that you built. Yeah. Which is just a brilliant because I think that’s something that has been a foundational piece of my marriage as well as talking about building what are we building every conversation is something we’re building, whether it’s tearing down or building that kind of how you take that as well. Oh, yeah. And I, you know, I don’t want it to sound like it’s, it’s perfect. You know, we have lots of

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love lots of times, you know, we have times when we get off track and but I will say this, I think Randy and I are both attuned enough to realize and to recognize and discern when we are off track. And really what brings us back on track is being intentional about our time together, because let’s face it, and I often say this, and I’ve written about this, and I’ve, you know, tried to counsel people about this Healthy Habits are intentional. No one drifts into healthy habits, whether we’re talking about, you know, exercise plans, or healthy eating or healthy friendships or healthy marriages, you know, no one drifts into the type of habits that are going to build a strong and healthy marriage so that you have to be intentional, you know, and then in the same regard, I’m always aware of the unhealthy habits are usually unintentional, meaning no one stands at the altar and thinks, God, I can’t wait for the day, we only have sex once every six months. You know, no one stands there and says, gosh, I can’t wait for the day when we just don’t hardly even know each other and don’t spend any time together. Well, no, no one, we all begin our marriage with hope and optimism and encouragement and love and belief in in good things to come. But those things don’t just happen. They don’t, you know, we have to be intentional. And if we’re not, we will drift into unhealthy patterns. And at some point, you have to choose what you want your normal to be. And I truly believe that if you are intentional about healthy patterns, whether that’s healthy sexual intimacy, healthy eating healthy time you spend with your spouse, whatever. If you’re intentional about that, that that becomes your normal, it really does. And in the same regard, if you’re not intentional, if you just are hoping those things will happen, but you don’t walk in the direction of health, then unhealthy patterns become your normal. And this is what happens when I hear from couples who haven’t had sex and months or, you know, I recognize right away, well, they that didn’t happen overnight. You know, they drifted into that. And they allowed that to happen, either one of them or both of them. And that now has become their normal. And that’s heartbreaking, in my opinion, but we have to walk in the direction. Well, I love that. Yeah, intentionally walk in that direction. That’s beautiful. And that’s hard. I mean, I will say I don’t, don’t sugarcoat it. I don’t want to make it sound like a fairy tale. Because I’ll be truth be told, there’s times, you know, I’m frustrated with my husband, or I’m disappointed or I’m feel disconnected or whatever. So I don’t want to make it sound easy, because it’s not, but it’s worth it. It’s worth it to draw to walk in the direction of health. Hmm. And I love that this is from not only 12 years of marriage, but also a previous marriage. And so I was married also before my current marriage. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So similar story there. But I know that having lived that life, I can see that yeah, just like you said that the extraordinary is in the ordinary, these tiny little decisions of criticizing or not criticizing or encouraging versus, you know, antagonizing these small things build into a very big, positive thing or a very big negative thing. So interesting, but I want to dive into your story more. Now. You might have shared part of that already with us. But would you tell a story of a very difficult season or struggle in your marriage? Or your life even? Oh, yeah, I mean, my, in our 12 years, gosh, we sure have been through it. Through it all. We were when I was pregnant with our son, you know, our son who’s now 10. Two days before he was born, my husband was laid off from his job of 20 years. You know, so that that was a difficult season for us. He found another job. And then about a year and a half later, I was laid off from my job. And around that time, when I was laid off from my job, he found out that he likely was going to be laid off from his. So he went out proactively and found a different job. And then that job he had to work for to midnight for two years. So you can imagine what that did to our life.

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The so I would say some of those financial and job change challenges have been hard seasons for us. Another hard season for us. We’re still in is we my husband’s an only child and we’ve his mother is elderly and lives on our own, but cannot drive and has various health problems. And so we pretty much take care of her so we have we are that sandwich generation. We are doing kids and we are taking care of an elder Really parent. And that has not always been an easy season for us. So I would say those two things, you know, we’ve had to very be very discerning and diligent about making sure those difficulties don’t isolate us. And I’ve often said to Randy, that I need the hard things of our life to draw us together, not to push us apart. And so we actually are getting pretty good about like, calling it out. You know, like, when we feel distant, or when we feel frustrated. You know, we’ve been doing the elder care thing for upwards of now, six, seven years. So, yeah, that’s, that’s a lot. But I think we’ve just become good at encouraging each other and holding each other up. And you know, that makes a difference. Yeah. Well, I’d like that. You mentioned that. You told Randy, you need the hard things to gather. Yeah, there’s a part. I mean, that, that I think is unique, not only unique phrase and intention, but also, for you to be just very clear on this is what needs to happen. Would you suggest that’s what marriages do that very clear? Well, I need this to help. Not Yeah, I mean, here’s what I often say is that, you know, marriage is a grownup game. It really is. It’s it’s not for the drama, Queens and the passive aggressiveness and the, the selfishness and that, you know, so if I could tell you, I have a couple nieces who are getting married pretty soon. And, of course, it’s hard to tell a young 20 something, it’s hard to tell them. You know, this is what you need to know about marriage is that this is this is serious. And this is a grown up thing you’re doing. But yeah, I just always try to encourage people, you know, I get because I blog about sexual intimacy, I get a lot of emails from people who are like, how do I, you know, how do I get my wife interested in sex, you know, I get emails like that. And I’m often like, you have to be real, you have to be honest about what the lack of intimacy is doing to you, you know, if you are hinting around it, or you’re being passive aggressive, or you’re pouting, or you’re just trying to drop suggestions, or, you know, that’s just, I don’t know, that just doesn’t it at the end of the day, those kind of methods of trying to make our needs known, really are not the most responsible way to do it. And it’s not that when we ask for what we need, that we’re always going to get it, I recognize that, but I’m big on the thing of the our spouse not have any doubt about how we really feel about something. So is it a guarantee things are gonna change? Not necessarily, but at the end of the day? Do you feel comfortable knowing that you made your needs known in a loving yet sometimes firm way? You know, that you weren’t? You didn’t have her around it? Yeah. And I just think that’s really important. And that takes courage. And you know what else it takes? It takes practice. It does. It’s a it’s, it’s a hard thing if people aren’t used to asking for what they need to take early in their marriage, and particularly if they’ve gone years with being passive aggressive or silent treatment, or just hoping that the person will intuitively know what you need. Now, if you’ve gotten yours, well, guess what? That’s become your normal. And you need to figure out a new normal, because that’s not working. And that, that takes courage. i It takes transparency it takes putting yourself out there. And that’s hard. Yes, yes. But it does take practice. I love that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Now, you mentioned that you blog about sexual intimacy. And that’s a huge part of the delight. Your marriage podcast is really talking about intimacy in marriage. And I’m interested what what turned you on to this topic, and why did you want to get started with

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ice choice of words, Bella, that’s beautiful. What turned her on to this topic? Well, I didn’t even notice. Thank you. I mean, let me talk about what turned me on to this topic. Well, in my in all seriousness in my first marriage, you know, sex was just a big struggle for us. And I don’t want to diverge too much, but partly why it was a big struggle. I think now in hindsight, the whole what I know now wish I’d known then, is I was on oral contraceptives, which are, I don’t know hormonal birth control can just be An assassin of sex drive. I mean, it really can take a toll on sex drive. Now, I’m not here to debate. I know in the Christian realm, a lot of people want to debate about if oral, or hormonal, basically hormone or any kind of hormonal contraceptive, if that’s right, or biblical or whatever. But I will say this, in general, and I’m not a doctor, but I know this to be true. In general, what hormonal birth control does is it, it evens out your cycle, it essentially tells your body in a way that you’re pregnant so that you don’t ovulate. Well. ovulation is very tied to sex drive. So I now know that that was a big struggle in my first marriage is that my sex drive really was non existent, even so I think had he and I really addressed that we would have been able to overcome it. And had I researched more. And had he been more proactive about talking to me about how frustrated he was that sort of thing. That wasn’t our only issue in the in my first marriage, but that was a huge one. And so when I came out of my first marriage, and the pain of that divorce, and the devastation, you know, I just vowed to myself that if I did ever get married, again, I just was not going to take this area of sexual intimacy for granted. And I was going to be intentional. And so my husband, I always say that we’re very grateful that I was so determined in that, and he feels the same way. So as I started talking to other women, particularly in the Christian realm, although I hear from women who aren’t Christian, but I started to realize that this whole issue of sexual intimacy and marriage is a huge thing, and a huge struggle for many couples. And so I just, and I’m a writer, by training, you know, I have a journalism degree. And so I just thought, well, maybe I’ll start a blog, you know, just thinking, it wouldn’t really be that big a deal. But I’ll, I’ll reach out, I’ll try to do that. And it didn’t take long before I started hearing from people all over the world, about the struggles with with sex and marriage. And so that really kind of opened the door, and I’ve spoken on it before, and would love to speak on it more and go to conferences, do all that. But that’s my heart. Passion is that area. And I’m not saying that sex is the only thing and marriage are the most important thing. It’s just that’s where my heart is to speak into. And so I’ve enjoyed that. I’ve enjoyed blogging, and then I co wrote a book with another author. And so yeah, that’s that’s my wheelhouse sex, and marriage is my wheelhouse. And the name of that book is pursuit of passion. Yeah, pursuit of passion, Discovering True intimacy in your marriage. And I’ve co wrote that with a couple out of Florida who had followed my blog for a while, and the man had written a marriage mentoring book. And so he and his wife reached out to me, and they said, Hey, we want to write a book about sex, and we want to write it with you. So that’s what we did. And it’s a cool story. It’s a great story. I’ve never even like met this couple face to face even now, you know, all these years later, but great Christian couple who have a heart for married. And so we we wrote this book, and and yeah, I hope it’s blessing people. I think it is, I mean, I I hear from people, and I believe it is. And the good news is, is that there are so many great Christian resources out there, you know, people wouldn’t have to look too far for, for good resources. And I’d love to hear more of those resources in a moment. But Jay from hot, holy and humorous actually recommended your book on her podcast. So yeah, yeah, she loves it. But I wanted to ask you just a little bit more about what you mentioned. So here’s something that I have thought about sometimes now in the marriage ministry, I see a lot of problems in my past marriage and the reasons for the divorce. But is it a little bit challenging for you to kind of think through that, and,

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you know, kind of identify the issues you had and like, how do you kind of move forward from that when you’re like, Well, if we had done X, Y, and Z, it would have turned out differently. But in all seriousness, I’m so glad I didn’t because yeah, I am now you know. Yeah, I do. I mean, I think I’m definitely in the camp of you know, and at one point I did, you know, even after Randy and I were married, I did call up my ex husband and I, the thing is, is we see him a lot because he’s in the same town and we’re co parenting. You know, we have this child together. So we we have quite a bit of contact with him. So this isn’t an ex husband who lives far away and who I never see. I mean, this is somebody who I’m still very close to his parents and his sister and I, you know, we sit together at ball games, all of us, you know, me and my current husband, and you know, my ex husband has remarried and has another child. And so our situation, I think, I resolved very early on that I wouldn’t let the pain of my divorce inhibit my ability to parent with this person. And I’m not saying that’s always been easy. But as far as the difficulties in my past marriage, and how I reconciled that is, I just, I just really kind of surrendered it to God, to be honest, I knew that I could take lessons from that in areas where I was careless with sexual intimacy, just by not nurturing it, and not realizing how important it was to the marriage, I knew that I could make different choices in my current marriage. And, you know, I just was very intentional about that. And truth be told, I like sex a lot. I think I didn’t realize that so much in my first marriage, because I was young, and because, obviously, the challenges with the hormonal contraception and stuff, but I really find a lot of reassurance and connection from that intimacy. And so I just, I just feel like the whole infamous. It’s all been worked for the good, so to speak. That Yeah, it’s fine. It’s okay. Yeah. What would you say to women that have gone through a divorce? I feel like a lot of times in Christian circles, because of the Yeah, infamous Bible verse that says, Yeah, God hates divorce. So how can you encourage women in that area that have gone through that?

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Well, most people have probably heard this God, God does hate divorce, he’s not crazy about divorce. Because if we really just look at the core of it, marriage is a covenant relationship. It’s unlike it was designed by God. And it’s unlike any other relationship. It’s unlike the relationship we have within our families. It’s unlike the relationship we have with our co workers and our friends and our children and so forth. So it’s a covenant relationship. And so, obviously, something designed by God, you know, when that is destroyed, or treated carelessly, or whatever, obviously, you know, that that’s why God hates it. But we know this truth about God to that he’s a redemptive God. He is a God of always longing for us to to have the hard things of our life draw us closer to him. So I just would say to anybody who’s been to through a divorce, or and this is a key thing, too, because it’s a thing in the Christian realm, anybody who’s struggling with their past promiscuity, or their past sexual choices that they they think to themselves would have could have should have, I wish I would have made better choices. Well, here’s the thing. You can make better choices going forward. You know, your your past divorce, or your past promiscuity. Those don’t define you, you are defined by who you are in Christ. And once we realize that, and grasp that and believe that we are able to look honestly with God out our past poor choices, and able to see how those equip us how the lessons from that equip us to make healthier choices going forward. And I’ve often said, and this is the dichotomy of it all, you know, I would have never asked for the pain of my divorce, I would have never asked for that. But I wouldn’t trade one lesson. I have learned through that. I will try one lesson now of what I learned about the depth of God’s love for me about the strength of my friendships, who helped me through that time, and about my ability to build that I still had it in me to build a healthy marriage. You know, I just I wouldn’t trade those lessons. I wouldn’t. Yeah. I love that. And I think that last point, you you hit on of, if you have the ability to to create or to build a healthy marriage, I think that’s often a insecurity of someone who’s had a failed marriage, or like you said, you know, had a lot of promiscuity. Do they even have that capability? What do you think God’s taught you in that area? Well, first of all, I think he’s taught me that, you know, he has good insights. The Lord has good insights on how to build a healthy marriage. He really does. If we dig into his word, then we we see a lot of those things that To equip us to build a healthy relationship. So that’s the first thing I would say. And the other thing he’s kind of opened my eyes to, is the a lot of what makes a marriage strong are learn to skills, they are skills you can learn, and God’s equipped authors and speakers and counselors and so many people to help us learn those skills, you know, we wouldn’t have to look very far, you know, I’m a big fan of counseling, I see a counselor even once a month, because I just see value, and seeking the professional insight set of someone who’s trained and someone who’s removed from the situation, you know, someone who can stand back and listen, and offer just wisdom into that. I mean, I just think it’s invaluable. So I guess that’s what I would say God helped me see is that not only is his word and his heart rich with what we need to build a healthy relationship, but he’s, he’s provided through other people too, and other resources he really has. So as a follow up, just a quick two questions I wanted to ask, when did you start counseling, if you don’t mind? Well, for me, personally, I started the counseling about a year ago. And that was mostly out of my own. Not that wasn’t necessarily compelled by anything going on between Randy and I, that was about my own.

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Trying to reconcile my own passions and desires, and how I, you know, my passions and desires to write more books and to do more speaking and stuff like that, but trying to reconcile that in the stage of life I’m in. So a lot of why I thought it counselor is just because I needed a safe sounding board. And my husband knew, I mean, he knows I go to a counselor, I mean, it’s nothing, there’s no secrets, no hidden. And he’s a good encourager, I mean, he knows it helps me to be able to go process out loud, with, with someone who’s trained and who’s understands kind of some of these dynamics, as I would say, can help you make sense of the crazy making going on inside your head. Yeah, so I just think I know, sadly, and even in the Christian realm, we still kind of have a taboo about counseling, but I just, I think they’re invaluable resources, especially if you can find a good, good one who shares your values and who just you have a good fit with. And I have found that in mine, and I, I and I won’t stop going until maybe the Lord tells me I’m I don’t need to go anymore. But I, I just really appreciate her insights. I love that. And I completely am on board with you with the counseling. I mean, that is just so so helpful. And the cool thing is, well, two things if if someone’s listening and doesn’t know where to find a counselor, the first thing to start is your local church. Absolutely. At Yeah, so and that’s how I found good counselors, is that how you found yours? You know, I found it through she is a Christian and I but I found her through other people I knew of other Christian friends who’ve gone to her and been helped by her and, and that’s another good thing I actually knew of another Christian counselor, and I tried to get into her and she was booked, you know, she said, I was very disappointed because it was someone I knew and already felt safe with. And so I was like, I don’t know, do I really want to go try somebody else? But that was a God thing, because I wouldn’t trade who I’m with now for anything. So yeah, I, I would agree your listeners, encourage them to start with, with their church. And then sometimes, and I’m not saying counselors who are not don’t advertise themselves as Christian counselors, there’s still lots of great counselors out there. I think the key is, is to find somebody who you have a good fit with, you know, you feel like this is I can sit here and I can bare my soul and bare my heart and feel safe. And I think intuitively we kind of know if something’s a good fit. And then also somebody who shares your values. You know, I I’m always keen to point that out when I’m encouraging couples to go to like marriage counseling, because, you know, sad. Sadly, there’s some counselors out there who wouldn’t share the value of fidelity and right now they would recommend things that just wouldn’t, wouldn’t be within God’s plan. So anyway, yeah. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And I think one beautiful string through everything you’ve said so far is the intentionality that you take with your marriage and in your Oh, absolutely. seeking out a counselor when there wasn’t even some big red flag going on, you know? Yeah, very good. And I think that someone who’s listening that’s like, well, I just feel maybe twinges of discomfort here and there. That’s still worth it. to go through and, and I also the reason I mentioned about the counseling in the time period, you mentioned some of the struggles that you had with your husband of laying off jobs and here and there. So you’re not a stranger to financial struggle? And no, no, we’re here you are prioritizing something that’s expensive. I feel the same way too, about, you know, when couples and I know, people often say, Well, you need more date nights, you need date nights, that sort of thing. Well, sadly, sometimes people think date nights mean, you have to go out and have a $80 dinner and you have to go to a movie. And, you know, I encourage couples to find ways to, to spend time together that isn’t going to really cost anything, you know, pack a picnic lunch and go someplace. Or if you’re healthy enough, you know, go on a hike someplace at a local like National Park, if there’s trails in your area, find a hobby that you can do together. And, you know, people are quick to kind of Shoo, shoo that stuff off or whatever. But it’s like, well, that’s what it takes. You got to get creative if and as far as the financial thing on counseling, if like, your insurance doesn’t cover anything, well, then here’s the thing, seek out either a resource from your church, if there’s someone you could talk to there. Or I always say a mentor is a good thing. You know, if you’re a Christian woman, and I do think you need to stick with like, if you’re on mentors, you need women mentors for women and men mentors for men, I just think that keeps things kind of aboveboard. But if you’re a Christian woman, and you’re like, Man, I just need another mature Christian woman who’s kind of been further along in the journey, to just listen to me and speak into me, pray about that, and have your eyes open to maybe someone who would be hungry to do that for you. But they, they maybe wouldn’t initiate it. So if you step out and say to an older woman at your church, or somebody you know, in your neighborhood or something and say, Hey, I just need someone who to listen to me and who’s safe and who’s going to keep it in confidence. So there are creative ways to find those safe sounding boards, there really, really are.

42:18
And again, I want to highlight just the productivity of this, you know, finding someone going for it, asking them out. So good. Thank you so much, Julie. Awesome insights and insights that seems just so practical that we can implement right away. Definitely take the time to really sit down and think about how you can love your husband more and better. And while you’re doing that, go ahead and sign up for delight your marriage.com/webinar and I will see you may 12. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And God bless you and I pray that today would be a day that you would invest and be intentional about what God wants for you and your marriage. Okay, I love you and we’ll talk soon. Bye.

43:10
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

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Hi there! Belah here. Today I have founder of Covenant Spice talking about her married life and how intimacy changed when she opened herself up to really enjoying it. She and her husband founded Covenant Spice, an online shop featuring intimacy products for married Christian couples. She shares about her wildly conservative upbringing and how it has required a journey through the Bible and discover that there’s a lot more to enjoy than she thought! Listen in as she talks about how it is perfectly okay for a married couple to use more interesting means and make sex exciting for you both!

Shop at the adult toy store here and receive free shipping for this week! Just type in the coupon code: delight (Offer ends 5/5/15)

If you do decide to make a purchase, I’d suggest having a budget around $50. Only because the cheaper toys aren’t as resilient and I would hate for your first try with adult toys to be a poor one. A bit pricier but here’s one that was recommended to me!

• A vibrator you may want to try out: “We-Vibe Touch” at Covenant Spice

Scripture/Quote:

• “When you make a decision to apologize, it doesn’t always mean that you’re wrong. It just means that you are setting aside your ego and valuing your relationship.”
• Drink water from your own cistern, running water from your own well. Proverbs 5:15

You’ll Discover:

• That she believes sex is a gift from our Father God, so Christian couples should have the healthiest sexual relationships of all!
• How a breakthrough in their marriage happened when she stopped worrying about sex and just relaxed
• How she was introduced to intimacy products but wished she wouldn’t have to subject herself to inappropriate language and images.
• How she started the business from scratch, without any knowledge of computers…just an idea and faith!
• How they spoke to their children about intimacy when they were still very smalll, generally and in clean terms, just so it would always be part of a natural conversation
• How husbands just want their wives to not only be willing to have sex, but also excited to do it with them!
• When finally she was able to reach an orgasm, she was able to relax and be more excited about sex
• How her husband felt there was something wrong with him when she needed sex toys to enjoy sex, but then found out the truth!

Books & Resources Mentioned (clickable image)

• The Marriage Bed 
• 
  • A Celebration of Sex: A Guide to Enjoying God’s Gift of Sexual Intimacy by Dr. Douglas Rosenau

Tweetables:

• Intimacy is not any fun if one of the participants is not having any fun
• I grew up in a conservative family, and when I got married, I did not have a turn-on switch. I was so shut down.
• Husbands want somebody who is not only willing, but somebody who is eager.
• When we commit to our husbands, that’s a huge responsibility.
• Instead of telling our children that sex is bad, we tell them that sex is fun and awesome and wonderful; and it’s going to be so exciting when you get married and experience this!
• I am average looking and a little overweight, but my husband is crazy about exactly who I am; and I love that my children see that.
• For husbands, I say “don’t get a toy that’s going to make your wife be what you want. Instead choose something a little more romantic. Something she would want.”

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:00
delight your marriage episode 25.

0:04
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, the show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:21
Hey there, and welcome back. This is belah rose, and you’re listening to the delight your marriage podcast. If this is your first time, I just want to say welcome. I just imagine you, you know, thumbing through your, you know, iTunes or Stitcher or your pod bay app on your phone, and you came across sex toys. Whoa. So if that is what happened, I just want to say welcome, you’re safe here. It’s not crazy. I and every guest, I believe, is endeavoring to live a holy godly life, you know, before Jesus, because you know, this, this life is temporary. But the cool thing is our marriages teach us a lot about being like God, which is incredible. You know, I did a webinar just two nights ago now. And it was incredible to have, you know, some of you on there live, it was just wonderful to get to hear what is going on in your heart in your life, and how you see some of these areas of sex and what the hang ups are on your end, and be able to share what I believe God has laid out in the Bible on why these things are really good, and really holy. And I just a piece I want to point out from that is, is I use a lot of images online. And if you have gone to delight your marriage.com, you can see lots of quotes and images that I pull out from these different interviews. And I use nature for the background. And there’s a specific reason for that, because I believe God created sex as a wonderful part of his plan. Just like he created waterfalls as a wonderful part of his plan, and sunsets and sunsets are actually my favorite. So I use those a lot. Hope it’s okay with you. Because I just think it’s gorgeous. And it helps me to realize that this is God’s majesty demonstrated in your bedroom in the marital union, he blesses it. I’d love for you to join me on my next webinar. It’s actually may 12, Tuesday, if you can block that on your calendar, I would be so grateful go to delight your marriage.com/webinar. And we are going to dive back into that seriously. If some of that stuff is over your head and you’re just like, I don’t get it. Don’t worry, I’ve been there. And I I’m still working through it myself. But I think we can work through it together. And I think God can help us really get a sense on this thing called sex. Anyway, so again, I just want to dive into labels topic today, sex toys, she is just a beautiful soul. You can tell she’s so genuine and kind and she’s not scary. She is really seeking to honor the Lord in her marriage. And she’s got some just great, a great family life. I mean, you can tell there’s so many great stories and whatnot. So I just want to stop talking and let you listen because it’s good stuff.

3:31
Well, welcome back delight your marriage listeners. I’m so glad that you’re here with me. It’s belah rose, and I’m here with Leo, from covenant. spice.com. How are you, Leo?

3:41
I’m doing great this morning. How are you? Very good.

3:45
I’m really excited to connect with you. Because I have seen your website here in there just over the years. And now with a podcast on being able to really see the heart behind it all. So would you just go ahead and spend a little bit of time introducing yourself your sight and a little bit about your family, if you would?

4:07
Well, I’m a fan layou. I’ve been married for 16 years. So my husband, Kevin, we have five children, two biological and three that we adopted internationally. And we started our website, covenant spice about nine years ago now. And that came about through some personal needs in our own life and finding what we were looking for wasn’t available and deciding to create it on our own.

4:35
That’s awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you and I just chatted a little bit about your kids that are actually from Haiti. Yes. You’ve got three now they’re all tell us the ages of all your kids, if you would.

4:49
I have a 910 12 and 213 year olds.

4:54
That’s amazing. I’m definitely not in the teenage years yet but that is I’m sure challenging out you got some preteens and full house. Wow.

5:05
Yes. Yeah. But they’re great kids.

5:09
That’s awesome. Well, yeah. So would you share covenant spice? What is the mission behind it? And and what does it do for Christian marriages?

5:18
Well, our statement goal is to create passionate intimacy in Christian marriages. And the reason that we started it is, you know, we believe that sex was created by our Father God. And so Christians should be having the most, the healthiest sexual relationships and the best sex of anyone you know. And yet, there’s still so much as a lack of knowledge, and people don’t know where to turn to for information, you sometimes don’t want to go talk to your pastor about problems in your intimate life. And so that’s our goal to have a place where people can find resources that they need and ask questions, and we can refer them places if they need extra help, things like that. That’s awesome.

6:01
Yeah, and just in case, anyone, anyone who’s listening hasn’t been to the site, it’s really a lot of very modest and just no nudity, very, very Christian oriented, but adult toys and adult products that really help in the passion area of your life. So it’s just got a lot of variety. And and I think you just did a, a website redo, right?

6:29
We did, yes, we have a brand new updated site with a much better just lay out and easy to navigate. Yeah. And what we’ve done is we’ve done a lot of research to make sure that any of the companies you purchase from do not have any connection to the pornography industry don’t spend any money that way. We buy from a lot of the higher quality and places that they just have very discreet and elegant packaging.

6:56
That’s wonderful. Oh, I just love that because that’s exactly what Christian should be standing for as a healthy, good marriage and sex life, but not feeding into the sin in the world and keeping people in bondage of thing. Brilliant. I love that. Well, I want to move more into your story very soon. But I wanted to ask you, because this podcast is all about inspiring and encouraging intimacy in marriage, I’m interested in a scripture or a quote that’s meant something to you over the years, or even recently.

7:30
Well, I’m, I have a Facebook page, and one that I had just posted that just in the last week that has meant something to me is that when you make a decision to apologize, it doesn’t always mean that you’re wrong, it means that you’re putting aside your ego and valuing the relationship. And so that’s just something that’s meant something last week to me that you can just make a choice to repair a relationship, even if you don’t think you were in the wrong or something.

7:59
Very cool. Yeah. Because it might even just be apologizing for hurting their feelings.

8:03
Exactly. Or the way you responded or anything. Yes, yes.

8:07
Yes. And I think that’s perfect in marriage. Because sometimes I know I grew up in a place where in my family that argument was you’re either going to win the argument, or you’re losing the argument, exactly. Those are the only choices, right, and that’s not, that’s not healthy, we shouldn’t have it that way it should be a I’m spending the time to understand where you’re coming from. And, and getting a chance to know you more, and it shouldn’t be a win or lose, it should be both are winning, we’re winning by understanding each other more getting a better sense of what’s going on. So yeah, I love that. So I’m interested if you wouldn’t mind sharing, about a season of struggle in your marriage. And so the listeners can really be inspired and understand, they might have the exact same struggle that you’ve had, and how you’ve kind of worked through that.

8:55
Well, it would have to do with the creation of my business. And that is that I was raised in the Mennonite Church, which some people may not be familiar with, they probably heard of the Amish and things and so very, very conservative, very modest, very you know, suppressing all even romantic desire or anything and then when you get married, then it’s all well and good. And I found Well, you know I’ve spent suppressing everything for 28 years and I got married and there was no on switch. I couldn’t turn anything on you know, I was just so shut down. And so um, you know, my husband and I did a lot of research and we tried a lot of just a lot of different things. And then you know, my husband went to a a traditional store and bought something to help me but I was so offended at the store that he had gone to that I threw it in the trash. And then my girlfriends and I went went to a, you know, were invited to a party where things like this were being sold. And I purchase something and you know, I had one of the first orgasms I’m sorry to be so specific. But yeah, um, since our marriage, and that was a huge, you know, intimacy is no fun for the wife or the husband, if one participant is not having any fun. Right. So that was a, that was a huge thing, learning to just release that part of my life and let go and know everything’s okay. And it’s fine and getting whatever help I needed. And, and then turning that into a very satisfying, intimate life. So,

10:45
yes, I love that. And that’s a similar story to my own. I mean, my very first orgasm was definitely with a vibrator. And the cool thing is that since then, I’ve been able to have orgasms other ways, you know, but

10:58
yes, you learn how to do it with. Yeah, exactly.

11:02
Yes. So I just want to encourage if there’s anyone out there, that hasn’t ever experienced an orgasm, that might be a segue into the experience. And I think that’s a wonderful, wonderful resource, Leo. So anyway, so can you share a little bit more about how the how the process of you know being okay with sex toys, when you started out with this very suppressive kind of mentality on it,

11:28
I’d have to thank my husband for that. He was not raised Christian at all, and had a very different background than I did. So when he became a Christian. And then we got married about two years after he was saved, he could not understand a lot of my the things that I was unsure about what was okay or, you know, what we should do or not be doing. He’s, we went through the scriptures together, and basically, came to the conclusion that if nobody’s being hurt, it only involves the two of you and both are willing participants. The Bible doesn’t have a lot of restrictions on what a husband and wife can do.

12:07
Together. Yep, yep. Yeah, I even say sometimes that, you know, we have all these different words for different types of sex, you know, oral sex, anal, I mean, all these things. But in the Bible, it just says, Get to know your wife, he knew his wife. And then they had this baby.

12:24
Right, exactly. Like

12:27
we did, I don’t think they had those kinds of words or specifications. They were just like, they were in their own bedroom. And, and a baby came out of it at some point. And I mean, that was the point. Exactly why we have all these rules at this at this stage is, I don’t think that’s the way God intended us to have intimacy has all these rules and concerns and worries and fears when Adam and Eve he just said, fruitful, multiply. That’s it. I mean,

12:53
he put the Song of Solomon in the Bible, which you couldn’t have a more erotic story and lines, and you know, so Yes,

13:01
yep. I love that. I completely agree that I mean, there’s so many it’s a beautiful poetry, I don’t think I could talk about sex as beautifully as they do. But it’s very, very clear what’s going on. I love that. Very cool. Okay, so I, I was met with something similar in that my husband was very much able to kind of disassociate sin with the marriage bed. And that was something that was really hard for me, I, I saw porn when I was young, and just saw that sin and, and then associated that with the marriage bed. And I’m interested in how you were able to kind of, you know, not assume that your husband who wasn’t raised a Christian wasn’t sinning when he was telling you, you can be free in this area.

13:47
I think, I think because we went through all the scriptures on the subject. And the only commands were not to withhold yourself from each other. I mean, they’re, you know, except for a short time for fasting and prayer, and to make sure you’re not defrauding each other by not giving yourself to each other, it was just encouragement to be open and sexual and to meet the needs and, you know, draw water from your own well, and be with the wife of your you know, it was all pro everything. There was no, you know, other than keep it to the two of you inside your own marriage, there was no prohibitions, you know, so I think, you know, turning to the, to the Bible, and to Christian resources and websites and in books.

14:33
Yeah. Yeah. And I’m going to ask you more specifically about which books you enjoyed. But how long was the process that you that this took to this take a couple of years, or when did you kind of feel more free? I think during

14:50
the first year, yeah. Great. Yeah. And then, you know, it’s a growing process. So more and more each year. But during the first year, I think was a major, just breakthrough and to stop worrying about it and just to relax.

15:11
I think that’s a huge thing is that would you would kind of encourage wives that were in your shoes, what, what they could do.

15:18
You know, I get a lot of emails from wives and a lot of emails from husbands. And the husbands are just like, Please tell my wife, they’re just so they’re just dying for intimacy. And for an involved partner, and somebody who’s excited to be a part of the relationship, and not somebody who’s just laying back and thinking of England, you know, not just somebody who’s willing, but somebody who’s eager, and you know, and I think when our husbands make that commitment to be faithful, while we both do you know, but to one person forever, then that’s a huge responsibility on the spouses part, to be that eager sexual participant, and to be there for them and, you know, keep things new and exciting and fresh. And I forgot the question.

16:10
Oh, no, yeah, exactly. Just the

16:14
Oh, and the wives are asking for basically permission, you know, like, Is this okay? I feel like I’m, I don’t know if I should be doing this. Or even my husband has ordered from something from you, I got this package. I don’t know how I feel about this. And then there’s so many great, you know, I don’t really consider myself an expert. In general on the subject, I tend to refer people to the marriage bed or different resources online that, you know, they can just really dig in and get some great information. Yeah, I

16:45
love that. Just giving wives permission to enjoy themselves, I think is is brilliant. And I think that’s something I definitely struggled with for a long time. And and yeah, it’s interesting that you shared that you had to really go to some resources to really learn. Yeah. And, you know, I think I was talking to a girlfriend of mine recently, she said, she has never read a book on sex. And honestly, that kind of shocked me, because I my library of sex books is pretty extensive. And, I mean, I just wonder if our culture assumes that sex is natural, and so we don’t need to read about it. I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

17:27
I don’t know if maybe, maybe Christians come with a few more hang up sometimes. Yeah, into the relationship, and we have more that we need to get over. So that could be I mean, you know, I don’t know. But yeah, we started out with Christian sex manual when we first got married the celebration of sex and, and had step one, step two. And, and then just lots of lots of books since then. But I think it’s a great idea. And I think that, you know, there’s counselors, there’s so many resources that you could just, you know, any question there’s an answer to?

18:13
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. So, so as things were kind of getting better, and you started to see this, this need, what kind of gave you the idea to open a store online?

18:27
Well, I was in a playgroup, and one of the girls hosted a, a home party by one of the companies that offers that, and our whole playgroup went to it, and we had the time of our lives. We had so much fun, we brought home all these products. We talked about it for weeks afterwards. But we also felt kind of dirty and very uncomfortable. Because the person who presented it, some of the jokes were just not exactly clean, you know, and some of the packaging on the products. It wasn’t horrible, but we just felt like, yeah, no, I told my husband after the night after the party, I’m like, I wish some Christian would start a business like that. So there’d be options to get these kinds of products and fun things. But you wouldn’t have to be in that kind of atmosphere. And then I turned and looked at him. And I’m like, you know, I could be that Christian. That does that. And that started took me about a year after that to get covenant spice going. But that was my motivation. That’s awesome. Well, had you ever done something like that before an online business? Or were you a business woman prior? No, I wasn’t. No, I actually was a missionary before I was. I barely know how to use a computer when I got married. But my husband is a computer engineer, so I have a good support. Yeah,

19:51
that’s awesome. Well, what it what a great, what a great thing, and it’s interesting that you didn’t say, Honey, why don’t you start this What’s

20:00
I’m actually quite good with computers. Now. I can build a website. I can do just about anything but yeah.

20:05
Wow. That’s awesome. I love that. And did you have kids at the time?

20:10
We we did we had my son my oldest, Michael. Yeah.

20:16
Wow. So you’ve been doing this as a mom the whole time?

20:21
Yes. Yes, I started off having things in office at my home. And then when my kids got old enough to be more aware, I moved it to a away from the house.

20:35
That’s very good. So do you? Do you not share it with them at this point?

20:39
Um, they know, generally, what I do they know mommy and daddy, because we tell them, you know, both together, but they sell fun things for married couples. Oh, really? No.

20:51
That’s right. We don’t need to go into I know, for sure. That’s very good. So how do you? Well, actually, that’s kind of a good question about how you talk to your kids. So that they start out with kind of a positive view around sex. I mean, since you, you know, started off so I start off the same way, so completely ignorant. But how do you kind of make it positive for your kids?

21:17
We’re very open with our children. They know that mommy and daddy love to have special times and they know exactly what that means. No, no, I mean, not exactly. You know, but when we’re like, Okay, you guys, go watch movie, Mommy, I want to spend some time together, like, Uh huh, we know what you’re doing. They know, we started talking about intimacy and sex and everything, while they were very small in very general and clean terms, but just so that it’d be always just a natural conversation to have with them. And instead of saying, ever, that, you know, this, it’s bad to have sex outside of marriage is bad, bad, bad, we just say, sex is fun, and awesome and wonderful. And it’s gonna be so exciting when you get married. And you can experience this, you know, and just keep it in always a positive, a positive bent. And you know, another thing that I love about my husband is I am such an average looking person, and I’m a little bit overweight. And I just love that my husband is crazy about me exactly how I am, I don’t feel any insecurity with my looks, or you know, my way or anything. And I love that my children see that, you know, that we love each other. The normal, old fallen humans that we are, you know, and just, it’s not based on just physical appearance, or, you know, anything like that. So,

22:47
I love that. I love that. And thanks, thanks for being so open, I would say the same about my physique as well. But how do you how do you make yourself feel comfortable in in the bedroom? I asked that because I think a lot of women struggle with, if I don’t have the perfect body wise, he’s not going to even appreciate the way I look. I mean, what what would you say to them,

23:07
I can tell you from emails that I received from many, many husbands, that they couldn’t care less. Now, there may be a few exceptions to that rule. But that’s what they’re saying is, you know, like, their wife is self conscious, that are all this and like, I don’t care, I just want her to be, you know, coming out and being excited and what you know, they just don’t care. They just want a somebody who’s eager and excited to be with them. And you know, just go and get some plus size lingerie, go do whatever, and just be free and be eager to be with them. And they will be beside themselves.

23:45
Yes, yes. That’s right. I mean, and if we flip it the other way, I mean, just imagine when you were in, you know, high school or something when you went to that dance, and there was that really handsome boy in the corner that was so insecure and, and nervous, and he would never come up and talk to you. But then there was that guy that was average looking that came up and just said, you’re amazing. I want to dance with you. I mean, imagine who would you pick? You would pick the one that was eager and excited. You wouldn’t pick the cute boy that was so nervous and insecure. He couldn’t even hold your hand.

24:12
Exactly. Yeah, there’s something about oh my gosh, you want to dance? You want to be with me? Basically, it’s the same thing. You know, you’re eager to be with me. So yeah.

24:21
Yes. And, and, and, and I love that, you know, the wife can love their husband in that way. You know, it’s when you get kind of out of your own like, this is about me and my body, my insecurity. And, you know, he doesn’t like the way I look and all that but if you get out of it and be like, How can I love him and make him feel good? And it’s I guess, and I wonder if I bet you would agree with this layout. But I guess it’s not a like you. You don’t want to get into the mind frame. It’s all about him in the bedroom. You don’t want to get into Yes,

24:51
I was actually while you’re saying that again, and there should be the companion message to the husband’s saying, You darn well better You better be talking in approaching your wife. And her, you know, because if you’re, you know, if a husband is critical or condescending, or any of those things, then there also needs to be some help and reading and counseling on the other end, you know, I mean, because then you can’t expect a joyful response to that.

25:20
Yes, that I mean, so, so true. And a lot of times, because I talked to wives, specifically, my tactic is be proactive, you know, do what you can to turn the tide in the relationship, but because I know also husbands do listen to this, you know, be that positive force, give her a really great, comfortable experience, every time you’re around her touch her body make her feel like you want her in an intimate way, but also in a just a general way, because that that makes her feel like she can be freed with you. So I think it’s like both and right.

25:54
Yes. And in fact, when wives email me about what I recommend purchasing, I generally recommend very the more erotic things on my site, for their husbands. And when husbands email, I definitely recommend that they go and buy the more romantic things on my site. So that it’s not all about, here’s a present for myself to you. Yes, like, here’s so that the husbands are investing in their wives emotional well being, you know, and feeling the need for connection and communication and romance. And so since that’s where they can tend to fall short, that’s where I’m like, don’t go and try to get a toy that’s going to make your wife be what you want, do what her needs are, and then for the y’s, and like, it’s something that’s going to make it more, you know, just exciting and new and fresh. So, yeah,

26:43
I love that. And I, and I almost think like, whichever whatever, spouse, your husband or wife, I mean, if you model the behavior of I’m trying to meet your needs, I’m trying to meet what you were, were you why then I mean, that that modeling often really spurs on some, some motivation for them to, you know, on the flip side, do the same, though, that shouldn’t really be your, that shouldn’t be your motivation, your motivation is to love them as Christ loves them, you know, and that same, that same love. Okay, so when someone is nervous about toys, specifically, how do you kind of help them to feel comfortable with specifically sex toys? Well,

27:24
first off, I always recommend something small and tiny and unobtrusive, and which is one of our main sellers are under a category of eggs and bullets, which is just something very small that you use during intercourse. And can many people have had their very first orgasms with that? And also just tell them, you know, what, there’s been like, people have been using cans of whipped cream and cherries, and I mean, now it’s called a sex toy. But people have been adding things to their relationship for fun forever. You know? I mean, it’s not. Yeah, it’s not that new. And it’s just just getting over the taboo in your own mind.

28:08
Yeah, I love that thinking about just how normal it is to include other things to just make it more fun or just kind of enjoy new things. I mean, just like you would, you know, move from the bed to the couch. I mean, it’s a new experience on the couch, right? So why not incorporate something else that’s kind of kind of helped to get some variety and cause it to be a new new sensation? Is that is that kind of what you think? Yes, exactly. Yeah, I love that. And here’s a question that I think might be on some people’s hearts. Is it as I say, I guess I asked this question, because I guess it’s probably something that’s on my heart is, I could think people have kind of an idea about orgasms. Like there’s the the natural orgasm, and then there’s the, you add something in order to have an orgasm, if that makes sense. And I think some men really feel like a women should only have an orgasm, you know, just with his member, and that’s enough, that should be enough. Or he’s not doing a good job, or she’s not doing it something is wrong. If you’re not having orgasm, just with penetration. And I wonder if you could kind of speak to that question.

29:15
You know, yes. In fact, I think my husband felt that for a while, like, you know, maybe he’s doing something wrong, or am I not turned on enough by him or what is the problem, but then we just realized it was, for me, it was stuff in my background that made it difficult. It was, you know, it was my own issue. It wasn’t anything that he was doing. And then when I was able to have orgasms and be more excited about sex and everything, yeah, he just got over it because he was like, Well, this is so much better. So he’ll be like, you know, it’s not like we use something all the time I did. I was able to use that to, for my body to learn how to have an orgasm and how to respond to it felt like to be Very aware and awake, you know, and turned on. And but you know, he’s often the one Hey, you want me to grab that or this for you, you know, because he enjoys the experience that it elicit. So I would just say that is, that is definitely an insecurity, that guys will feel that if they can look past that, and just to the, to the end result. Yeah, um, you know, another question a lot of people have is, are they you know, addictive? Do they make it harder to have a natural orgasm? And studies have shown that they are not? They don’t make it. You know, they don’t make it more difficult to have an orgasm without one. And there has actually been several research studies on that. And it has not been shown to do that at all.

30:48
Okay, cool, cool. Well, you know, it’s almost, I kind of want to equate it to like, like, going to an amusement park, having, you know, all these really cool adrenaline rushes and just kind of a fun, lots of interesting experiences there. Versus having just kind of a good day at the park or something. You know, like, why why not have both enjoy both types of intimacy. The other thing that is kind of cool about the women’s body is the clitoris is enables a woman to have multiple orgasms. Yes. You know, and, and a man can experience that. I mean, it’s possible if he, there’s like different, you know, kind of interesting things that he has to kind of withhold in order to have another kind of, you know, it’s not something that was like a very easy and enjoyable thing that women, they can just couple

31:38
of things. Because, yeah, I think it’s God’s way of making up for that we have to work so much harder for her.

31:45
It might take 30 minutes, but after that,

31:48
yes, and you know, there’s so many, there’s guys, and with disabilities, I have a lot of people who they’ve had different surgeries, or even just dysfunctions, and it makes them so happy to be able to, because sex wise are not just for women, there’s sleeves, there’s but there’s stuff for men too. And just to have alternate ways to pleasure each other can be such a blessing. I mean, if a woman’s had a C section or some surgery, you know, to be able to, yes, there’s good old fashioned handjob things, you know, yeah, be able to do something fun for him. And it can be a real blessing. And if a man is learning to, you know, to last longer, or to be able to stay active long enough to actually pleasure his wife, sometimes when he’s still working on that he can at least make sure that she ends up with a pleasurable experience as well. If you’re not able to, yes, can maintain that long.

32:52
Yep, no, that’s wonderful. And I think the other kind of cool aspect is there’s a couple of scientists that agree that many women cannot have an orgasm with just penetration. And so a man should really get it out of his head that a woman is supposed to orgasm, just by the natural in and out kind of thing that’s not actually physically able for many, many women. And so if you’re listening, and you’ve just never had either the orgasm, you know, through penetration or whatever, don’t feel like you’re broken, or, or you’re just not good enough, or there’s something you need to get in your mind to literally your your physicality might not allow that. And that’s totally okay. And I think labels ministry really helps couples enjoy this physical release, without, without the pressure or feeling like I need to figure out how to move my hand in a certain way in order to to make it happen. I mean, really, it might be, you know, just kind of a little a gift for your your intimacy that allows you both to enjoy it in a really, really great way. So,

33:59
and there’s actually a huge percentage of women, that percentage varies much, so much, I don’t quote a number but that have never had an orgasm period. And that’s not just Christian women, that’s just women in general. And so, you know, and, yeah, a lot of people will think, Well, there’s an issue, you should get counseling, and I’m all for that. But sometimes you can just kickstart a problem, you know, I mean, in your body, you can just, there’s a shortcut, and your body can learn to a lot quicker than, you know, years of counseling. So I for the counseling to but I’m saying this is a great tool.

34:37
Yes. And I would even say that, you know, a lot of times Well, from my experience was I didn’t have an orgasm until I felt really fulfilled in my marriage, which is interesting, just kind of how related the female mind is to her body. And it was just, it was a great experience. But there were things that even emotionally needed to get worked out. out in my marriage kind of before that was able to happen. So and actually, I go into my story a little bit on some other podcast, but it was actually before I got married, but it was to my husband. So. So anyway, so that was Yeah, I think that is a great key that will really help women kind of feel a little more free in those areas. And, you know, if a toy is gonna kind of enjoy, you know, enhance the experience together, you know, I just, I just think the variety is going to be a helpful thing.

35:33
And you know, the toys are actually just one part of it. Like we have scenario books. And they just give you all the way from a ring the doorbell your spouse opens the door, and there’s rose petals, leading to a box of chocolates to the chocolates, it says go up into your you know, I mean, there’s like, it’s just romantic, and sexual scenarios, things to give you ideas, we have things that give you a text message ideas, you know, for fun things to text your spouse to have look forward to the evening, we have things for games, some of them have nothing to do with sex. They’re all about intimacy. Like an enchanted evening, they’re all about getting to know each other, there’s massages and love, you know, just all kinds of things that are all about romance and relationship as well.

36:21
I’m really glad you brought that up. Because I think sometimes we just I’m really glad you brought that up. Because I think as women, we really want those romantic evenings. And we need some help with ideas and our hobbies need some help with ideas. So having that those resources is a really great, a great thing to share. Well, there you have it, I mean, sex toys are not as scary as you might think. And if you haven’t been able to enjoy some of the perks of intimacy, aka orgasm, I want to encourage you, you know, the sky’s the limit. And a simple vibrator or something along those lines might be the first step in that direction. So I’ve got an affiliate link actually, which means that it’s the same price to you, but you will get free shipping if you go to delight your marriage.com/ 25 and you’ll get all the information there. Also, if you get a chance to come back on Thursday, I’ll be sharing with you how to discover my recommendations in this steamy topic. But I do believe that we need a little bit of guidance in this area because it’s not easy to you know, figure out the Muddy Waters is this okay? Is it not? You know what, what’s tasteful blah, blah, blah, I get it, I get it. So I would encourage you to check it out, though. Go to the light your marriage.com/ 25 you’ll have the link, you can go straight to her site and see it’s beautiful. I mean, it’s tasteful. There’s nothing that looks scary. Like, you know, like you’re probably used to it’s really a nice, nicely done. So yeah, and I guess my homework for you is to explore a little bit. Get outside of your comfort, your comfort zone a little bit and be willing to try something new maybe tonight. Okay, God bless you. And I love you and I’m looking forward to chatting with you again on Thursday. Bye.

38:30
Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Hi there! Belah here. Today I have Part I of Annie Lobert from hookersforjesus.net talking about her story from being coerced and abused in the sex industry. She has been through horrifying experiences, where she was beaten into submission by her then boyfriend who ended up controlling her as a pimp for years and how she was raped at gunpoint multiple times. Since her amazing transformation, she has now been married to an awesome man for 6 years and has 3 step-children, she shares hope in the midst of so much brokenness.

• Part II of her interview: delightyourmarriage.com/23
• Part III of her interview: delightyourmarriage.com/24

Scripture/Quote:

• But earnestly desire and zealously cultivate the greatest and best gifts and graces (the higher gifts and the choicest graces). And yet I will show you a still more excellent way [one that is better by far and the highest of them all—love]. Cor 12:31
• We are assured and know that [[a]God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose. Romans 8:28
• And He said to them, Come after Me [as disciples—letting Me be your Guide], follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men! Matt 4:19

You’ll Discover:

• We could spend our entire marriages in the verses of 1 Corinthians 12.
• What calmed her down when she almost went back to the patterns that were in her past.
• Identifying your triggers and how can you respond in a way that supports your walk with Christ.
• How Annie had been rejected originally from her father and how that still needs to be recognized to have a healthy marriage.
• What are her major struggles in her marriage even years after following Jesus.
• How she works with ladies in the sex industry and shares Jesus’ love with them.
• How her ministry works and when it began.
• How she began sex work without realizing the red flags along the way.
• How she was beaten even though she loved the pimp who abused her.

Resources Mentioned: (clickable image)

• Fallen: Out of the Sex Industry & Into the Arms of the Savior 
• Stockholm syndrome – is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with the captors.

Check out the great bands Annie’s husband, Oz Fox, plays in:

• www.stryper.com
• www.bloodgoodband.com
• www.vinyltattoolv.com
• www.letitrawk.com

Tweetables:

• If we can’t accept our partners’ flaws, we can’t accept them at all.
• Agape love is so different than romantic love because no matter what it loves the other back.
• I finally made it outside of the sex work and ended up losing everything overnight and went back to escorting and drug habit.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Trascript

0:00
to light your marriage episode 22

0:04
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:21
Hey there, and welcome back. This is Bella. And if this is your first time joining delight your marriage, I just want to say welcome. And thank you so much for being here. This is the show where we really dive into the stories of wives and intimacy experts and sex experts about how to have a fulfilling, wonderful, delighted marriage. And intimacy obviously, is a huge factor in that. So today, if the title piqued your interest, I’m really glad it did, because it is just an incredible story. Annie lo Burt, from an organization called hookers for Jesus, the organization that she started after having such an really horrifying life experience to tell of and then She’s so brave to tell her story boldly, in hopes and in order to help other women escape the same life that she was in for years and years, abused and beaten and treated like an animal. I mean, I just, it’s so heart wrenching. But she goes into that the thing I want to really share and ask you to pay attention to is how she talks about her relationship with her husband, she is married, and he knows everything he knows all about her past because obviously she’s you know, now in an founded an organization that helps women out of the exact same situations. So it’s just an awesome example of how Christ looks at us that we have an believable pass. And yet he accepts us because He paid the price for us. And so when we, you know, look at our spouses and want to judge and criticize and ridicule, I mean, look to the example of Jesus where he loves and accepts. Man, this is just the beginning of a phenomenal interview. I’m telling you what, so stay tuned and I’ll talk to you on the other side

2:39
Alright, welcome back to let your marriage listener I am. So I’m really thrilled to have Annie from hookers for Jesus. And she is just an incredible fireball, I already can tell you’re going to have a lot of fun. She’s got such an incredible story and lots to share. So Annie, welcome. Thank you for being here.

2:57
I’m so honored to be here and so excited as well. And you sound like a fireball yourself, by the way. Oh, well.

3:02
That’s awesome. So I’d love for you to just jump in and introduce yourself a little bit about your family and what your day to day life looks like.

3:11
Okay, so some people might not know me, so we’ll pretend that we’re just meeting for the first time. Hi, Annie, and I am a lover of people. I was born in Minnesota. And I am living in Las Vegas currently, because I got coerced into the sex industry as a sex trafficking victim later in my life. And long story short, this is the city, Las Vegas where I met God and basically gave my life surrendered and started hookers for Jesus started Destiny house, a one year program for women that are coming out of sex trafficking. And this is also the city that I got married in and that I actually met my husband for the very first time. I’ve been married six years, and we have a blended family has three children that I love so much. And I personally have never had my own children. loves my family. And my family is all up in Minnesota and Wisconsin. So we’re all here in Vegas together and we love it. We love the desert. I tried to think the desert as a place of refinement. It compared it to, I would say the Old Testament. It’s like our promised land. In a way. It’s a beautiful city. And people here are beautiful. I travel a lot with my husband and without my husband to spread the message of what we do. And I do a lot of speaking engagements on different topics. And I love it. And I think Vegas is a great location to live because of the fact that we’re very centralized in the country on the West Coast. And it’s pretty easy to find anywhere in the world and the country from here.

4:53
That’s awesome. Thank you for that and I just can’t wait to dive in. Okay, well, let me just ask you a little bit about your personality. Your husband’s personality. What does that look like?

5:02
Okay, so pretty wild, pretty outspoken, pretty bold, pretty pushy and zealous and very opinionated. Okay. I will like what I think we love it and he is just reserved. He is in my sense of the word. I don’t know if anyone would else think this, but my husband, his name is oz Fox. And his real name’s Richard murkiness. He is actually the band striper. But that is the stage name. And everyone calls him oz. And he’s been in the band, 30 years. He’s a founding member. And I was going to tell you that he is conservative, would disagree because of the fact that he’s a rock and roller, and he plays in several different bands. He also plays in Bloodgood, which is another Christian band, fantastic band, just like Stripe, and he plays another band called vinyl tattoo. They play cover tunes, old 70s 80s Rock, and then also, he also plays in another band.

6:04
I want to I want to get all those links, because I want people to be able to check out his stuff. So yeah, okay.

6:09
But it’s really cool, because I think he’s conservative with his thinking when it comes to faith and the way we should live. And so that’s why I say my husband’s conservative, he is sometimes outspoken, but our personalities are so different. It’s not even funny. But then again, we think the same as well. He’s, he’s more quiet than I am. he contemplates a lot. He watches me a lot when I talk. And then he like, says his opinion, or he says his comment to me. He’s loving. He’s encouraging. He’s very embracing of my past my current work that I do. He’s my best friend. Like I, I know, you’re going to ask me the ultimate question too, by the way, already know. Okay. Right about? It was that was the question. I don’t know. But you know, it’s funny how we met. You know, I wrote a book called Fallon. And that’s is actually one of the chapters of how we met. It’s a beautiful, you know, completion of a Disney fairy tale love story. Basically, I’ve always wanted belah to be with a musician from since I was a little girl, I think and as a teenager, and so when I met him, I first thought he was some creepo trying to reach out to me on MySpace. And then I thought, oh, yeah, just another rocker trying to get some tail, right. And I was so far from that truth, because he ended up becoming probably the best thing that’s happened to me besides Jesus in my life. That’s incredible. And it’s been it’s been an incredible ride. And we’re learning each other. I’ve been married six years. And, again, this is a very young marriage. To me. It is. Yeah, honestly. And I think that there’s a lot of good times to come. And there’s going to be a lot of challenging times to come. Yeah. Because when you marry someone, you marry everything. That’s right, that’s marry their bad habits and their family and you know, their ideas, their preconceived notions about life, their fate, if you marry the bad things, as well as the good and that’s I think that’s why we take those vows of theater and say, for better or for worse.

8:30
Well, and that kind of brings me to my question about a scripture or quote that you could share with listeners what’s been central to your marriage so far?

8:39
You know, one of my favorite ones is it’s got to do with love. And it starts in First Corinthians 12. I love the Amplified Bible, by the way, so if y’all got to amplify getting down there, it says, But earnestly desire and zealously cultivate the greatest and best gifts and graces, the higher gifts and the choices graces, and yet I will show you a still more excellent way, one that is better by far, and the highest of them all, love. And then of course, go into my favorite chapter in Corinthians, First Corinthians, which is the 13th chapter about love, and I really enjoy a word starts in you know, First Corinthians 13. Four, it says Love and doors long and is patient and kind. We could honestly live our entire marriage, our marriages off that Scripture because of the fact that it never ends it indoors long and yeah, and the fact that it needs to be patient, and it needs to find Yes, and if we accept our partners flaws, then we can accept. Honestly, no, I love It’s so different than romantic love and your glove, obviously, it is the best love because no matter what it loves each other back, no matter what’s going on in each other’s lives. And I really contemplated that this morning and I was discussing this with my husband. I’m like, Honey, you know, how do you look at our relationship? And he just was so encouraging, and I thought he was gonna bring up some of the arguments we’ve had. Maybe you know what? You respect me? You like you never disrespect me. And I’m thinking to myself, Mo Yeah. disagreements that I felt that I was pretty pushy on and don’t agree with me, then you need to apologize. I mean, come on. Yeah. It’s pretty arrogant. Right?

10:47
I know, I hear it. I

10:50
want to talk about this with you. Because my husband’s completely supportive. I said, Baby, I’m doing a podcast this morning about love and marriage. He was like, really? I said, Give me your two cents on it. And he just, he just encouraged me before I got here to do this. And I’m so happy. And again, fast forward maybe five or 10 years, maybe at night might not that maybe it might not be a good day like this. I mean, like I said, all marriages aren’t perfect.

11:18
Right. Right. Right, right. Oh, no, but and I’m so grateful that you said that in terms of, you know, this, this is not necessarily where you focus your effort on a day to day but you live marriage. I mean, that’s, that’s part of life. And so this podcast is really about getting the insight how we as wives can have a more fulfilling, more intimate, more loving marriage to the glory of God, because a good server had way more and better.

11:44
There there is, you know, one thing that I like to bring up if I can just kind of like you back off. Yeah, having love in our marriage, and how our marriage is patient and kind between each other. Yeah, is the fact that we’re surrendered to Jesus. And I truly believe if a man and a woman get married, and they don’t have the love between them, which is the God a love of Christ, they don’t have Jesus as a center of their life in the center of the center of their will surrender to God, between each other, that marriage is going to fail. It is going to fail eventually, if it’s going great right now great, you got a honeymoon, period. Keep skating, keep skating. Okay, keep swimming. But lesson, you’re going to handle some major sharks coming up ahead. Because something will happen in your life, that will deter you from loving each other, like you did when you first met each other. And you have to be able to hang on to that storm and to the chip during the storm, and be able to ride those waves with the sharks and just get through it somehow. And to realize that you have each other and that God is your center?

13:00
Yes, yes. Well, I love that you mentioned specifically about the storms, because that’s what I really want to dive into. And I think you’ve got just an incredible story that I know our listeners are interested in hearing how your past plays into your marriage as well. But can you tell us about a season or struggle in your marriage and it could have been even before it started?

13:18
I remember the first fight we ever had married. I mean, it was pretty major. And I was actually at home in our first apartment we had together. And he was driving back from a trip from LA because he had to do a teaching different classes for guitar lessons. On the weekend. He was driving back from LA and he called me it was probably about 12 midnight. And I was kind of tired. I was actually watching, believe it or not Katherine Coleman. They were doing a rerun of her on some cable television. I love her. And I was listening to her talk about the Holy Spirit. And it’s so ironic because she was talking about the Holy Spirit and His love for us, and how he surrounds us when we have love in our heart for the people. And my husband calls me like baby, I’m almost home. And I then I was given him an update on what had happened that day. And I had an opinionated person that wanted to give money to our nonprofits that wanted to tell me where to put it. And this person didn’t see that there was a need that was stronger in another area for some girls that we were dealing with. And I was telling my husband about it that this person because they had given some money, they were trying to actually boss us around how to run the company. Oh no. When that happens with the nonprofit, it’s pretty it’s pretty hardcore, because you have a board of directors for a reason. A donor, be able to give a large sum of money and tell you exactly how you’re going to run your company and that was what was happening. designated funds or designated funds. We keep them in that place. Absolutely. But when the person gets in the driver’s seat and tries to run the company, that’s a whole nother ballgame. So I told my husband, this person’s doing this and Being very opinionated. And he knows this person as well. And so all that to say, he said to me, Well, you need to listen to the wisdom of that person. And I don’t yet because I felt like he took that person side. Yeah, right, right. And that became an argument. And I felt it like it was an attack or rejection towards me. Even more, it really wasn’t until he got home and hit the door and came up the stairs. He walked into the living room, and I was in the bedroom and I could see him walk in, because my door was open. Yeah. And I just looked at him. And I said, I can’t believe you came against me. You’re my husband. And for about an hour and a half, we didn’t talk. And it was like that sun go down and the anger thing. And I was thinking, I know that scripture. I know what God wants me to do. We just got married a couple months ago. And literally, we made up that night, but I’m going to be honest with you for an hour and a half. I wanted to cuss my husband out. I wanted to storm out the house. Might somewhere in screen. Okay. Yeah. But what brought me back to where I could call myself down. Was that through to the spirit called self control? Yeah. And I thought about my past, and I thought about my rages I used to have, when I add in my past Bella, I would run I would drive my car really fast. I would go get pie. I would go to the club, I would, you know, do crazy things. Okay. Yeah. And I thought about that. When I was in that moment of what did I do in my past that destroyed me. And so that type of trigger that you know, that could have happened, didn’t happen, because you know, when you’re surrendered to Jesus, yeah. Jesus gives you the wisdom. God gives you this, this beautiful wisdom, the Holy Spirit, and calms you down and gives you peace. So what I did was praying, yeah, I left the room, I sat on the couch, I sat actually, we didn’t have a couch. Then I sat on the floor. My pillows, and grade and I, I got my Bible out. I was like, Lord, you gotta help me. I don’t know how to deal with this. I’m really angry right now. Yeah. And my husband apologized to me, and then I apologize to him. Yeah. And I told him the reason why I felt attacked. And I think it was an old wound,

17:36
being not appreciated by my father growing up, not being encouraged. And when my father rejected me, my whole world crumbled, it crumbled. And see, and we can often compare things that happen to us in the moment, when if we don’t, you know, think quick enough about self control and the peace of God falling on us and the love of God via not us, we can actually fall back into those old triggers, and then react the old way. But see, when you’re filled with the Holy Spirit, and when you’ve been practicing self control, and you’ve been asking God, God, help me with my self control, please give me self control, you know, and you’re practicing the fruits of the nine fruits of the spirits, you know, God will test you on them, trust me. And he did in that moment. And so that that really was, I think, a defining moment in our marriage, a turning point of, I told my husband, I never want to get mad at you like this ever again. Because Bella had cried before he got back home. I tried for a long time. And by the way, I hung up on him twice, before. Yep,

18:38
well, I just want to pull out a couple of really great nuggets that you’ve shared so far. And, you know, one was really talking about old triggers. And I think anyone listening can recognize that they have their own triggers. And for you that rage was triggered. And you could have responded in the exact same way you always have. But you would have gotten the exact same results as you’ve always gotten. And the thing that Jesus asks us to do, as are as following Him is turning the other cheek and saying, Okay, you hit me one side here, hit me on the other side. And that’s what we have to do daily in marriage. So I love that you pulled that out. But I want to dive into something that I think our listeners and myself is really interested in, in terms of the trigger of imagining memories of the past. And since you know, my thing before getting married, was I was promiscuous and, and these kinds of things, and that’s my sin that I still carry. And I think there’s so many in in marriages where they are feeling that guilt and shame and the memories and and I just would love your insight, like how do you get past kind of those things that might still be on your mind? You know, as far

19:39
as the the shame and the guilt for what I have done that has God has really done an awesome work. Even if I look back at that argument, you know, five and a half, almost six years ago now. Yeah, that’s something that the Lord has really taken away from me. I think, my major struggle for my patience All relationships with my husband is the fact that when I do say the wrong thing, and I try to retract it, and or I do do an action that’s wrong, and I feel so guilty about right after I do it. It’s a terrible feeling. Because I think the hypocrisy of falling back into a moment just for a short period of time a reaction that’s a that’s You don’t even mean to be a gut reaction. It just happens because to trigger like, you say the wrong thing. Like, you know, there’s one time I told him I yeah, he didn’t hear me do it. But I’ll tell you guys what I did want to hear what it was. I flat out said eff you. Oh, yeah, I sure did one time to my husband. He never heard to this day. Now when he hears this podcast, he is going to know that

20:48
I Wait, he didn’t hear it. What do you mean?

20:52
Where I swear Bella, I thought he could. But I was at the other end of the house. And I was so mad. And I don’t even know what it was about. But he wasn’t hearing me. And what I was feeling was women were all full of feelings, right? We’re all our brains are completely different than a man’s. We’ve got a lot of receptors and connectors because we’re waiting we bear children. So, you know, I think of every worst case scenario of every situation that we have or good situation. Good case. And we were disagreeing on a subject. And he said, Yeah, whatever, Annie or something like that, oh, that’s when he tries to shut me down and tries to end the conversation with his last word. When he left the room and when I didn’t realize it, but the opposite end of the house, but I like lost it. And I don’t know if anyone else can relate out here. I’m a woman of God. Okay. And yeah, that F bomb came out. I had not sworn probably in years, and it came out. I was so mad. I was like, You know what said but girls and gentlemen out there listening, ladies and gentlemen. I know you get me. You don’t know that you haven’t thought these things? Okay. Yeah. Replacing words with like fudge flip flippin. Same thing as you get me. So, to this day, he has never mentioned it. He has never said it. But that is a point where I felt so guilty. Bella, I felt like for sure. He was going to call my pastor or one of our mentors and say, you know, I think Annie needs counseling? Well, I mean, I

22:33
appreciate that you’re pulling that out. Because I think that a lot of times we think that, okay, we’re following Jesus, everything’s gonna be fine. And our marriage is we’re not going to have trouble. But the thing is, that’s a constant daily thing. You’ve got to exercise those fruits of the spirit every single day with your husband. And that’s what I love about marriage is that it makes us it’s iron sharpens iron, we get sharper, it hurts in the moment, we get sharper doing that. So I love that you brought that out. And I just like to ask even Well, I think we skipped through the the day to day part. I wanted to hear more about your nonprofit, can you just do maybe a, you know, 62nd piece on what what your nonprofit does and how it works? And that kind of thing? Sure. So

23:09
in 2005, after a couple years of healing, because I got saved and set free, you know, surrender to the Lord on August 2 2003. Yes. And, you know, in 2005, I really felt this call on my heart prior to that, actually, too, but I had to get prepared for to go on the strip and just tell ladies that were working as sex trafficking victims and regular girls that were working without a pimp, that God loved them. He loved them right where they’re at. And he’s not trying to change them. And he wants to invite them into a relationship with him and invite the girls to church and give them gift bags. And just, you know, let them know, they’re beautiful. And that’s what started hookers for Jesus. And then that that branched into having our first Destiny house in 2008. And I’ve had the nonprofit for almost 10 years now, actually, the ministry itself, but the nonprofit got legalized in 2007. So that’s what we do. And we have a home for women. And we have a brand new property that we moved into in 2013. That’s probably quadruple the size. And there’s four, four buildings on the property. So we have women here right now that are recovering from sex work and recovering from being sex trafficked victims. And, of course, this is my past. And, of course, Romans 828, you know, God will use everything for his good. When you surrender, you love him. And so that’s what we’re doing here. And the women are being set free from their past. And one thing that I had to really, really get set free from was PTSD and most of the women on this program, have it so that’s what we do that and fishnet, and by the way, it does not mean prostitutes for Jesus. Now if you want to take that go for it. That word is dirty to you because you’ve allowed it to be dirty to you. What it means for us is Matthew 419. We will teach you how to fish for people. That’s what that’s the first four disciples. And that’s our mantra. That is our scripture for our ministry. And we look for people that are desperate to be rescued and desperate for life change. And that’s what we do.

25:16
That’s so great. Well, I mean, I just want to dive in. So can you tell us how how did this change in 2003? What happened?

25:24
Well, what happened to me was I was in the sex industry, I’d gotten to Las Vegas, because I invited my boyfriend, which I had no idea he was a pimp. He was a drug dealer, and I did not like that he was a drug dealer. And prior to that, a year, year or so prior to that, I had went to Hawaii with my girlfriend to a nightclub, and we actually turned our first trick. I turned my first trick in Hawaii. But I met these two men at a nightclub in Minneapolis first and they were pimps and we didn’t know it and I got turned out into a sex worker basically a prostitute a escort girl escorting, which a lot of people think well, that’s not prostitution. Yes, it is. Okay, Quitline, it ends up becoming prostitution eventually. So pretty much I got to Las Vegas and the first night that I got here with my boyfriend, quote, unquote pimp. He’d been living daylights out. I was basically thrown into sex trafficking. I was his sex slave, his bottom girl, his main girl and we he had girls come and live with us and, and underage ladies. It was tragic. It was tragic. I had to give him every single dollar here was the the cruelest dichotomy of everything was the fact that I loved him so much. And that I thought I could rescue and change him with my love. Oh my god, we can’t change people’s hearts only God can. And so I was with him for five years and then I got with another pimp that was just as abusive. He was less of a gorilla pimp he was more like a Romeo pimp but he ended up living off everything I made, you know, losses normal job, and that was another five years of complete utter tragedy and got addicted to painkillers later on without not on drugs at all during my work, the first 10 years but came down with cancer and then lost all my hair had Hodgkin’s lymphoma finally got away from the second guy and actually had a trick rescue me out of the industry. But we had a corporate business together. It was running smoothly for the first like, two three years, I got off the drugs got off the cocaine, and our business failed. And you know, it’s funny because corporate business to me I put that as an idol in my life, just like my escorting was because my escort I made I made a lot of money, and gave a lot of money to the pimps. And I wouldn’t say Gabe was forced to give the money to the pimps. And I had finally made it outside of escorting and high class escort prostitution. And I ended up losing everything almost overnight, again, with a horrible business. And I went to what I knew was familiar. What do you think that was? Yeah, right back to the Las Vegas Strip as an escort went right back to my drug habit. And about a year later, I overdosed on cocaine. And I want a Gosper that. Sorry,

28:21
wow, okay, well, before you get, you know, tell us that part. I just want to know, a couple of things. One is you mentioned that you were in love with this and it was controlling you, and sex like making you a sex slave and taking all your money. I mean, is that a common thing? Is that common to for women that are in the sex industry to be in love with their pimp?

28:41
Yes, in America style pimping in, I believe it’s going on in other countries as well. There’s all different kinds of sex trafficking itself and pimping in and in other countries in here. That’s happened. Some girls, some little boys, they get kidnapped and forced. And it’s called the Stockholm Syndrome. When your you fall in love with your captor, and you fall in love with the person that’s abusing you, because you want to please them. And I wouldn’t say it happens to every single sex trafficking kidnapping victim. But when it comes to the Romeo and guerrilla pimps here in the United States, the pimps approach the women as a Romeo type, a friend, a prince, a knight in shining armor type. And it’s her good graces, he gets her trust. And he starts to groom her into a romantic, beautiful relationship of, you know, flowers based school these ladies into believing that they love them and that they’re there for them and that they’re their boyfriend. And then they invite them into this lifestyle. They say, Oh, look, you can make a lot of money doing this. And then there’s another form of pimping that goes on sex trafficking where a girl is looking for a new job and she meets some people that have connections for modeling or for acting or for famous or doing music or whatever it might be, and then they get it introduce to the world of the sex industry which eventually becomes the sex trafficking world for them. And so within within pornography stripping, model nude modeling, and and escorting Of course, working in brothels, massage parlors, you name it, it’s everywhere. So the one that I got coerced into is he was my boyfriend. And I was already what was great for him is that I was already in the industry, I was already acclimated into the lifestyle and reaping the benefits, the great benefits, which was the money side of it. And I was already feeling very much in control of whatever I was making didn’t have a pimp. I was basically what they call a renegade, very, very opinionated, very independent, I did have some men get a little violent with me, I had a man pull a knife on me and a gun on two separate calls prior to boyfriend come around and become my pimp eventually. But I didn’t have a very good taste in my mouth from that. But I figured you know what, it comes with the job, no matter what, see, and that’s why you cannot regulate sex work. There’s no one in the room, no security guard or police officer that is willing to stand in that room with you while you’re having sex for money. That’s ridiculous. Who would do that? Anyway? Think about it. So that’s why when people say legalized prostitution, no, that really doesn’t help things for our society. That’s going to give men permission to abuse and throw away women and use them for that hot moment that they need to get relief from. Wow. So So yeah, it’s, it’s pretty. It’s pretty crazy nowadays. Because we have the internet, the internet has changed the sex industry so much, because of all these sites that you can post dating on. That’s a site where you go find someone to have a relationship with and then they pay you for that relationship.

31:58
Oh, my gosh, what is prostitution? Is it not? Well, yes,

32:02
but the people that are doing it will argue with you. No, you know, we just have a relationship. And he only comes to see me once a month. And you know, if we have sex, we have sex, but he pays all my bills.

32:14
Oh my goodness.

32:17
Have you ever heard of Mr. Singh saying,

32:20
Oh, my gosh, well, okay, so give me a little bit more insight about who these these guys are. I mean, so often, when you’re kind of on the outside looking in, we assume that these are monsters. You know, these men are just crazy people. I mean, are these married men? Are these? I mean, business suit, guys? I mean, who are who are these people?

32:41
Are you talking about the sex trafficker pimps? Are you talking to clients? Yeah, okay. So the men that call are every walk of life you see every single day, from a blue collar worker, to a white collar worker to a government official to a political party, to to an NBA star to a famous singer to a lawyer to a rabbi to a pastor to a priest. I mean, I’ve had them all. I’ve met them. I think that, you know, one of the things that I that made me I think stay in the sex industry so long and in a victim was I had this hope in my heart, to one day meet someone that was very wealthy or very famous that could get me out of the industry. And I fantasized about that just like the pretty women scenario. Yeah. I remember watching that movie when it first came out with my pimpin theater, telling you, I cried, he goes, Why are you crying girl? She’s out of the industry now. Yeah. And I I’ve fantasized about that about the nice guy that was loved me enough to, to not hold my past against me and to accept accept me exactly. And had enough money to take care of me and also to give me my dreams, which I love that about my husband, because he might not be wealthy, but he lets me do whatever God’s asking me to do. And he encourages me and pushes me to

34:14
praise God. Wow, is that not a picture of God’s love? You know, oz knows, and he’s passed. And in fact, he has to live in it so much because of the work that she does to help other women out of the same life that she was in. And yet, here he is boldly, courageously saying, you know, what? Neither do I hold it against you, my dear. If Jesus forgave me, what am I doing holding it against you? I mean, that’s the kind of love that marriage requires. All of our sin deserves death, every single part deserves death. because we can’t stand before a holy God with, you know, all this mud all over us that really, it’s not just mud. I mean, we don’t know the actual effects that sin has. But anyway, there’s that’s a longer theological discussion. The point is, our role in that is to forgive. Our role in that is to say, you know, honey, I know you and I accept you, and I love you. And I’m going to be to you what Jesus says to me, and that’s the picture of marriage that I think God paints throughout the Bible, that we have the opportunity of fulfilling for our spouse. And I have the same experience as Annie, God’s love has been able to permeate my heart in ways that I would not have imagined through my husband. And that is actually what brought me back to the Lord. And I talked more about this in Episode 20. Just amazing, amazing insights. Thank you, Annie, for being so generous with everything on your heart. And I just want to mention that this is literally the very beginning of the interview. It’s a three part interview this time, because I wanted to just make sure you got all of it, I didn’t want to trim it down. And, you know, let you miss part of the story that Annie shares. But here’s the deal, I wanted to ask you, if you would be willing to spend a couple extra moments and for this to a friend or your youth pastor or your ministry leaders, because I think that Annie has something really important to share. You know, the Bible tells us to be wise as serpents, but gentle as doves. You know, he says, Do not be ignorant of the devil schemes. And you can hear I mean, gosh, this is opening my eyes like nothing else. I had no clue how much the sex industry is affecting people. And you’re and like I said, I mean, you know, my paths, I guess should be aware of, but I just am not. And I think so many of us are not. And it’s wreaking havoc on our marriages and our kids and so much, so we need to be aware of this stuff. The point is, there are so many good things that are coming in these next portions of the interviews and so I just ask if you would, if this blessed you would you forward it along and get them hooked on this interview so that by the time the final part of the interview comes out, everyone who needs to hear this message will be able to hear it. The schedule is today’s Tuesday. First half is released. The second half is released on Thursday. And then the final portion is released on Friday is a bonus episode where I also include a really important message and challenge because I think it’s going to be just life changing for so many people. That’s my prayer and hope. Alright, well thank you so much for joining me. God bless you. May God just give you the grace today to look at your husband sin or your wife sin and say you know what? Jesus forgave mine too. And to go forward and accept and love them the same way that God loves you. Okay, goodbye. We’ll talk soon.

38:08
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

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Hi there! Belah here. Today I have Part II of my interview with Chris Taylor from forgivenwife.com. Chris shares bravely about how serving her husband (at first just to fill his need) has become an incredible place of joy for her as well! Chris is a self-proclaimed feminist (so am I) and she says it’s important for a wife to serve him in the bedroom. She shares the hard work she’s put into improving their marriage, including how she used “stealth growth opportunities” on her husband every chance she got. Listen as she explains how it’s absolutely alright to let loose and be vulnerable; and that in those vulnerable moments, the most tremendous spiritual aspects of intimacy come into play.

You’ll Discover:

• That she often had the drive physically but the relationship and emotions were so bad that she remained in a sexless marriage for 20 years
• That even a feminist should be making love to their husbands!How their marriage does not look any different on the outside, but definitely feels a whole lot better behind the scenes
• Once Chris and her husband let go of old patterns and recentered on their intimate relationship, they became closer to God
• How she explains that life is not perfect, and we don’t always have control; and it’s okay to let loose
• That vulnerability could be scary, but is perfectly fine when shared with your husband, whom you know is the one person you can trust and rely on
• How Chris believes that sex is the means that will connect her and her husband when that emotional connection is truly needed
• That growth is not just something you do when something is broken
• Sometimes when neither of she or her husband are in the mood, they have sex for the marriage.

Resources Mentioned: (clickable image)

• The Generous Wife by Lori Byerly (the-generous-wife.com)
  • The blog that is not just about sex, it’s about heart.
• 
  • The Respect Dare: 40 Days to Deeper Connection with God and Your Husband by Nina Roesner

Tweetables:

• Before I was married, sex was very much just for the men. I never saw it as something that met my needs and it very much does. But in order to get to that point where I could see that, I had to go through a season of “sex for my husband”.
• If you look at sex within the larger goal of having a great marriage, then sex for your husband’s sake is a good step. Just don’t stop there.
• Once I decided it was okay to let loose, sex changed dramatically.
• When those walls are down, and it’s just God-husband-wife, it’s a tremendous experience.
• When our marriage became more intimate, our young adult kids could tell.
• Healthy doesn’t mean perfect. But it means you can get through it ok.
• Working on sex for his sake removed the primary tension in our marriage, then we could work on the rest of it
• I have always had a strong sex-drive physically but I just didn’t want to have sex with my husband because the relationship and the emotions trumped my physical drive.
• There is no one on this earth, other than my husband, who has seen me in my full sexual glory as a wife.
• He has forgiven me for hurting him and rejecting him for nearly 20 years. And that is the best example of Christ that anyone has ever shown me.
• Its not just that he wants sex, it’s that he wants to be with you.
• Everything I’m working on through my marriage, I am now seeing how it parallels my relationship with God in so many ways.
• Jesus said feed my lambs and sometimes thats one lamb at a time.
• Sex is the path for emotional connection for many men.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

— 

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Transcript

0:00
to light your marriage episode 19

0:04
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, this show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:21
Hello, hello, this is belah. And I just want to thank you so much for joining me today, you are in for a treat. Oh my gosh, Chris has some awesome insights to share. And I also just want to thank you, for those of you and there’s a lot of you that join me on the webinar on Tuesday night. It was awesome. And, you know, it was just so cool to be there live with you and hear your feedback and your responses to questions and, you know, get a sense of how things are going and actually get a chance to connect on our on a real way. And that was just awesome. And I got some really great emails back of like, last night was different and these kinds of things. And I’m just so grateful because you know, good marriages mean good lives and, and tighter relationship with God and more work for the kingdom. I mean, there’s just so much good, good family dynamics, it’s just, you know, better easier to wait raise kids. I mean, there’s just infinite reasons that marriages are supposed to be really strong. And, and God loves that. So I’m just really grateful that a lot of people found this webinar helpful. And if you are sad that you missed it, I just want to give you a heads up. The next one is going to be April 25. That is a Saturday, I got some feedback that Saturday would be easier for moms and that kind of thing. So give your husband the kiddos for that, you know, little hour and a half of time and and meet me there, you can sign up at delight your marriage.com/webinar or just go to delight your marriage.com and click on the link that talks about the webinar. But I really would love to have you. Again, I really go into why sex is good in your marriage. Biblically, I talk a lot about scripture, honestly, you’d be surprised how much you can pull out from the Word of God and how really spicy it is. So I’d love to have you there. And I just wanted to mention, those of you that have already reached out to me via private messages and that kind of thing. I just want to thank you so much. It means so much to me to hear from you. And I want you to also know that anything you send to me is completely and utterly confidential. I may dance into the other room where my husband is and let him know I got some positive feedback. But I don’t give names and I don’t give details. I’m that serious about your trust. And I just endeavor to honor the fact that you let me into your life and your ears every, you know, twice a week. It’s just such an honor to be in your life and to and to speak into it. Okay, I really want to dive into Chris’s second half of the interview, the first interview, she shares her heart about how the marriage was sexless for 20 years, and how that switched. And then this episode she’s really talking about the whys. The why would that switch when when she was you know, an educated, independent, fully capable woman? Why would all the sudden sex be important for her and I’m telling you what it is good good stuff. I hope that you take notes or you can see my notes at you know, delight your marriage calm. But if God is speaking to you about this topic, and you hear something that really rings true to you write it down. Because honestly, the way we change is through repetition and it is a process but sometimes you need to hear something two and three times sometimes you need to say it over in your heart sometimes you need to pray through it. Sometimes you need to journal about it if you feel provoked by this episode. And I bet I’m betting that you will, I need you to go ahead and take that leading of the Holy Spirit and get changed girlfriend, you are not done God is not done with you. So enjoy. It’s just awesome

4:11
so I want to ask a little bit just to kind of switch gears a bit just to share with us maybe in 60 seconds what your marriage looks like now and how someone can look from where they’re standing now maybe in a really tough word in their marriage, like what can be possible

4:26
without a voice 60 seconds to that pressure. Now I have my brain is blank. Our marriage doesn’t look like any different than it used to in some ways. It’s a lot of this behind the scenes stuff. Although, you know, we have three young adult kids and they all knew when something was was different. Because you know mom and dad are laughing together more. And I think it’s not that we just that we got rid of some of those those old patterns. It’s that we kind of got We centered together in what our marriage should be. And, you know, we pray together now, which we’d never ever did. And so we have a more prayerful spiritual relationship. It’s we just enjoy being with each other. And we have very good friends who, you know, they’ve noticed that something’s better. And it’s not anything that people can put a finger on, it’s just that we see more like, we’re a unit. Now, instead of two separate people who happen to be married. So yeah, I mean, it’s just, it’s, it’s the way marriage is supposed to be in it took me you know, more than 20 years to figure that out. But even after all that time, we did it, we figured it out. And here we are, and we still struggle. But we also know, we have more tools for making it work.

5:55
Right? Right. And I love that you mentioned that it might not look different to someone else. Because often, you know, as couple covering things up and making things look nice, that aren’t nice, and that kind of thing. But I love that it sounds like though the outside look the same, the inside is totally different. And if you can imagine thinking the person’s body like you can put makeup on and make that person look gorgeous. But if you know if there’s a disease on the inside, that’s that’s tearing them apart, and not allowing them to live a whole healthy life, then it’s needed to to work on that inside part. So it sounds like at this point, you guys are healthy, inside and out, which is awesome.

6:34
Yeah, and it’s you know, healthy doesn’t mean perfect. It just means that you can get through it. And that’s okay.

6:43
Yeah, it thank you for sharing that. You’re right. I don’t think we end up getting to a spot in our marriage. We’re like, well, there’s nothing more to do. We’re done here.

6:53
And, you know, it’s interesting, because my husband, for some reason, has this idea that growth is something that you do only when you’re broken. And so you know, I’ll say Honey, how can we grow together in his responses? Why what’s wrong? Right. And so I just have to do what I call stealth growth opportunities. Where, you know, I’ll ask him questions, and you know, he’ll, are you trying to make me grow again, honey humor for the blog. It’s professional development. So, you know, but I, now that I’ve realized how much I’m not right. And I elbow I hate saying those words. All these years that I was convinced that I was right, and that I was not the problem. coming face to face with the reality of I was, I wasn’t the only problem. You my husband certainly contributed to our problems. But the fact that I was half of that, though, that was hard, because I am always right. And I don’t like to say that I wasn’t. And that is very humbling. But the fact that I am able to say that now to my husband, like what you mean, you admitted you’re wrong, that’s never happened before that has made that has made him a little more open to all these, you know, stealth growth opportunities that I provide for him.

8:24
Right? Yes. I love that these SGS. Exactly. That’s excellent. I love it. You know, I think something that’s been helpful in our marriage is that we now have a culture of saying you’re right. And so I just laugh so often when I’m wrong, because it’s very frequently, but I think it was just yesterday, we were walking someplace. Yeah, that’s what it was. We were walking someplace. And we live in the city. And there was a whole lot of construction. We were trying to go to the river. And there was so much construction that we ended up walking down 12 blocks in order to get across and then walk back up 12 blocks, and we just gone the direction that my husband had suggested we would have actually had to walk about half a block.

9:05
Oh, I was humbling.

9:09
Exactly. It was one of those things that Okay, you’re right again. Yeah, I know. I Yeah. It’s, it’s, you know, thankfully, it was our rest day. So we actually had the whole day to, to kind of relax and just enjoy. So we tried to chalk it up to that, but it was, that’s the kind of thing I think, thank God, that’s been a huge help in our marriage to have this culture of You’re right. You’re right. You’re so right. I’m glad I married us such a smart man, you know, if you just kind of shifted into a little bit of a different gear of it’s a game and let’s get a one point for my husband, you know, those kinds of things. It just, it helps it helps a lot. So,

9:46
yeah, and you know, every couple I think has to figure out a way to make those things work and you know, so many women are perfectionist and want to control and you know, so much of life is out of control. And the one thing that we often feel we can control is the intimacy in our marriages. And it’s so hard to let that go. And that was one of one of the battles that I felt, you know, so much in life was out of control. And I had gone through a bout of depression. And, you know, it’s like, I came out of this fog, and I had no idea, you know, my, my house was a mess, and my marriage was a mess. And I just wanted to get control over everything again. And, and I think that that was a really difficult thing, to let go of that control and let my husband have some of it, to let God half have it back. You know, so many women have all these problems with control, and we want, we want to have control and be able to control our environment. That’s, you know, sort of, you know, God made us to want to be able to do that. And that’s okay, the problem is that we so often never let go. And I think that for so many women, one of the problems with sex, men truly immersing themselves in the sexual experience, is that we don’t want to let go, because we’ll lose control of ourselves. And that vulnerability of that moment. We’re just so afraid to go there. Yeah. And, you know, when I think about that, for so long, that was one of the pieces of me withholding myself sexually from my husband, even when we were you know, even when I would agree, okay, fine, we’ll have sex. I wasn’t fully there. Because I was afraid of where I would go if I really let loose. And once I decided that I, it was okay for me to not have to control that moment. Yeah, sex changed dramatically. And I think, you know, I used to not really want sex, because it wasn’t all that great for me. But now, it’s so different, because I am able to trust my husband, and trust God, and the walls are completely gone between my husband and me now. So the vulnerability isn’t as scary because it’s just always there. And I know that he’s reliable. And he’s the one person on this earth that I can completely let go with. And it is, it’s almost like those are the moments when the spiritual aspects of intimacy really come into play. Yeah. And in those moments of truly letting go, God is there too. And I know that there probably someone listening, shocked. What do you mean, God’s not there during sex? Oh, yeah, he is honey. He’s very much there. And it’s those moments where you completely have those walls down. And that it’s God, husband and wife, and it’s just tremendous, amazing experience.

12:57
Yes, exactly. Exactly. I mean, it’s almost natural to thank God after the experience, because it’s just so it’s so dramatic and wonderful. And he designed it that way. I want to ask, you are clearly so analytical, and so you know, thoughtful about your actions and your words, and, you know, your walk with Christ and everything. I’m interested, when things changed, or before things changed, I mean, so it’s kind of a mixed between, you know, I kind of have a thought process that some of the feminist movement, which is so, so helpful, and giving so many women freedom, and in so many ways, but I think there’s a concern that it could, it may have given women this understanding that, you know, if you value sex in your marriage for your husband, you’re being a lesser partner. And I’m interested in your thoughts on that, how, if someone’s struggling in that area, how can they shift their perspective? How would you say?

13:57
Well, you know, it’s interesting, because I’ve always considered myself a feminist, although most feminists probably wouldn’t consider me one. I don’t agree with everything. And I certainly don’t agree with a lot of the approaches. And I’m not I think I’m not as strong in some regards, as I used to be with some feminist views. But, you know, I worked out, I was the primary breadwinner for much of our marriage. And so you know, all these things about women in the workplace and equality and all of that I, you know, they’ve just been part of my life, and they have served our family very well. And my husband’s very supportive of those things. One of the things that God really used to pull me back to him was a few months after I started my blog. I participated with several other bloggers on the respect there. I have always been very disrespectful of my husband. I mean, you know, I’m the one who would snipe at him in public and who would disagree with him in front of the kids and me He was just horrible. And I knew that that was one of the things I needed to work on. And it wasn’t, I wasn’t thinking about it in terms of I have to learn to submit. It was basically I have to learn to be nice to him. And so once you’re the respect to dare process very reluctantly, because I was afraid that it was going to turn me into a doormat kind of wife, and I thought, I can’t do that. That’s not me. And I looked for, you know, anti feminist propaganda in the book and didn’t find anywhere, and I was looking for it. What it did was, you know, it helped my marriage, but it really helped me see where I was not trusting God. And, you know, it’s, it’s so hard, because I think about all the things, you know, I started dealing, addressing sex for my husband, because I knew it was one thing that mattered to him. And, you know, I feel kind of weird, but I, you know, and I tell women, well, you know, your husband needs sex, so give him sex, because at the same time, sex is not for him, it’s for the wife to and it’s for the marriage. And sometimes I feel like I’m giving these contradictory messages that sex is, for most men, it is the primary means where that emotional connection happens. So when I was rejecting my husband sexually, because we didn’t have the emotional connection, I was also rejecting the very thing that would give me the thing I wanted. So, you know, I think it’s really a tough thing, because we want, you know, we know that for most men, sex is a really important thing. And that shouldn’t be the only benefit, or the only reason that we decided to work on sex. But it was where I started. And once he was getting the sexual connection that he needed, things changed in our marriage. And then I was able to see the benefits to me, you know, the relationship grew. Because once he was sexually content, he wasn’t tense anymore. We weren’t having the sex arguments. We were laughing again. We just working on sex for his sake, removed the primary source of tension in our marriage. And then once that was gone, we could work on the rest of it. And one of the things that I learned, so as I was feeling more emotionally connected to him, because he wasn’t pulling himself away all the time, I realized that I was really enjoying sex, too. And the truth is, well, many women say, you know, I just don’t have much of a sex drive. I, you know, I know several other women are like this, too. I actually have always had a very strong sex drive, physically. But I just didn’t want to have sex with my husband, because the relationship and the emotions trumped by physical drive. So interesting, it will give you it just kind of weird, because it’s just goes against what we think. But I do know, some other women who have had that same experience, where physically, they had the urge for sex, but the relationship got in the way.

18:28
Wow, that’s amazing. It’s so so for husbands to hear, you know,

18:33
in for some women, you know, it very much is about a low libido. And then, you know, there are still ways to work on that. But yes, you know, for me, it was the big factor was that our relationship and our emotional connection just weren’t happening, right. And once they were, that I started to really love sex for myself again, and it was sort of, you know, full circle that, you know, at first, before I married, sex was something I did just for men, and I never thought of it as something that met my needs. And it very much does. But in order to get to that point where I could see that I had to go through the season of sex for my husband. And so I think that, you know, it’s really frustrating because, you know, we don’t, you know, it sounds so awful to say, just do sex for your husband. Right? And I think if that’s your only goal, it’s a problem. But if you look at that as a means to a larger goal of working on your marriage, and having the kind of have healthy sexual intimacy that a marriage needs, right, sex for your husband sake, is a good step. Just don’t stop there. And I think that’s one of the things that when I think about what really worked with the growth in my marriage, it was the ones things were okay, I did Stop, it would have been okay to say, okay, my husband’s happy. That was my goal, or not fighting about this stuff anymore, I’m done. But I kept going, and saying, Well, what else can I do next? And that’s what kind of pulled me toward that continual growth in God. And now I’m at a point where I very much see that sex is not just for my husband at all, it’s, in fact, there are some times when, you know, we’ve had a couple situations over the last couple years where we’re just, you know, we’ve been so stressed. And I’ll go to my husband, and I’ll say, you know, I don’t really feel like having sex. And he’s, he’ll say, I mean, either. And I’ll say, but you know, what, our marriage needs us to have sex. So let’s go try to figure it out. And neither, neither of us will be particularly in the mood. But we know that sex is the means that will connect us the best, in a way, you know, at a time when we really need that connection.

21:02
That’s right. And God is just designed, it’s so amazingly that that actual physical release that physical thing, just I love that you mentioned earlier that acting before you believe it often. And and that’s that’s generally I think, how, how I get myself to kind of make some moves that I maybe not even physically feeling, and yet, I know what needs to happen. And I love also, I think some women will balk at, you’re sharing exactly what you speak to your husband about, I think we should have sex, I don’t really feel like it. But let’s go do it. I think some women don’t even use that language.

21:37
And I didn’t use to, yes, which in the thing is that? I think the more you know, every, every time I’ve had a positive sexual experience with my husband, it’s sort of added to my repertoire of understanding that, okay, you know, I didn’t really feel like it. But you know, with many women, you don’t really feel like until after you’re already doing it in so many times, they go okay, well, I know, I’ll get into it if we can just get started. But my husband and I have both seen many times where just the experience of being sexual together, has helped and, okay, my husband and I are both 50 years old. 50 year old bodies don’t work like 25 year old bodies do. And so there are times when we will be sexual together and nothing happens for either one of us. Things just don’t you know, our bodies just are not in the mood even though our intentions are good. And so there have been some times we’re thinking well, okay, so did we actually have sex or not? Because you know, what, neither one of us got that release. Right? In, you know, that that releases in the oxytocin that comes through orgasm is so important, but it’s not the only thing, that time of vulnerability with each other. And that, you know, the nakedness that is both physical and emotional, yes, that builds intimacy. And even if all we’re doing is just making out with no intention of completion, that still helps the marriage grow. Because it makes us more intimate with each other. And plus, it, you know, builds a little sexual tension makes the next time a little bit more productive. So so, you know, it’s even, there’s been a couple times when we, you know, I’ve said to him, you know, let’s just, let’s just go lie in bed naked and watch TV. And that, and that will be enough. And it is, it’s just that nakedness with each other. And, you know, so we put so much attention on orgasm, which is a wonderful invention of God, thank you. But it isn’t the only benefit of sexual intimacy in a marriage.

24:07
That’s so true. And I love that in the Bible, it talks about Adam knew his wife, and they’ve got so and so. Or it’s always knowing the other person. And that’s the same actually kind of circle back to something we were talking about earlier. That same word, I believe it’s pronounced yada, is, is the same knowing that we have of God. And so, yeah, orgasm is great. You’re so right. But there’s a lot more to knowing your husband than just that, you know, relief that that thing and I and, and, and the sexual experience. Was is like I said, that knowing is it. We don’t need to categorize that is the sex. Is it not? Is it perfect? It’s not gonna it’s a yes, and it’s perfect, and it’s messy, and it’s funny, and it’s embarrassing, and it’s unique and it’s vulnerable, and it’s lots of sounds and

24:57
all those things together. And as much as there was this promiscuous stage in my life and my past, there is no one on this earth other than my husband who has seen me in my full sexual glory as a why. And that is such a different thing than what any other man ever saw in me. And once I could let go of that control, and truly just let myself go, I, I’m a 50 year old, you know, middle aged woman who’s gained way too much weight and have stretch marks all you know, I said, I had, I was pregnant with twins. So, you know, nobody wants to look at this body, except my husband. And it’s, you know, we have all these body image issues. And you know, I’ve got just as many body image issues as any other woman, but not with my husband. And when he looks at me, and you know, he gets this little twinkle in his eyes, I am completely comfortable with him naked, both of us naked, I won’t let anybody else see certain things, but you know, with him, I can just, you know, if the kids are out of the house, we can close the curtains and call it a Nicky day. And it just, it just relax. I know, you know, I never thought that I would look forward to my kids leaving and you know, now I’m thinking Come on, people find your own apartments get out of here. In You know, it’s, it’s non sexual, but it’s a very intimate to just be naked with the one person who’s ever really seen me that way.

26:44
Man, I love that. And it’s so it’s so like our relationship with God, there’s no one else that we can be as vulnerable with no one that can know, our hearts so deeply. I mean, I just love that set this up to teach us about our oneness with God, in our marriage. That’s beautiful. Now, I think we could talk so much more about this topic. But I do want to kind of move to those next questions. And we might have okay, we might have to do a couple sentences for each. But would you share what you think are the three cheap things that your marriage that have been central to your marital success?

27:20
Well, you know, this is one where I’ve, I think, really, it’s just one thing, and that’s persistence. The not giving up, you know, the that whole first year when I felt like I was fighting against my husband, just to try to do what he’d been begging me to do. I persisted. And I think persistence, even after you get to your point of, you know, where your goal is, I think, you know, the fact that even after things got fixed, I didn’t stop that there’s a, you know, just I persisted, and I kept going, and I’m still going, and I’m still growing and learning. And I think Grace is another thing, that I had to give myself a lot of grace and accept God’s grace. And accept my husband’s forgiveness. I mean, he’s a very forgiving man. And I heard him and rejected Him for nearly 20 years. And he’s completely forgiven me for that. And that is the best example of Christ that anyone has ever shown me. The persistence and grace. So that’s only two things.

28:32
That’s great. Yes, I love that. So we’ve talked a lot about intimacy, and you’ve given some wonderful tips so far about sex. And oh, the other thing I wanted to mention before I forget, is that you shared that intimacy with your husband being more than just a euphemism for sex, which I think is brilliant. Because, yeah, we can be intimate on so many levels with our honey, and if any part of our heart is closed off to him. That’s an area that needs to get opened up. Really?

29:05
Yes. Very much.

29:08
So good. Okay, so would you share a tip about sex that maybe a wife could implement, even tonight, and it may be something that you wish you would let been let in on earlier if you can?

29:24
Well, I think, maybe not a tip so much, but sex is more than an orgasm to most men. And I think that remembering that when your husband says, you know, I’m horny, or I want to have sex with you, that it’s you, you know, it’s the wife. She’s a central component. It’s not just that he wants sex, it’s that he wants to be with you. And so, you I think that’s one of the things that a lot of women really struggle with, but I did have a woman write me a couple months ago, and she, you know, she said, Well, okay, so What can I do? You know, what can I do to start working? And I said, just initiate sex with your husband. Tonight, jump in. And if that just means that he’s walking by and you reach out and grab between the legs. I know we women like to hint around, but men don’t get him as much. So reach out and grab in between the legs. You don’t have to say anything he’ll understand. Grab your husband.

30:29
There you go. Gently.

30:33
Some men? Yes, some men? Maybe not? I don’t know.

30:37
It depends. But you’re very right. The touch is an important part that you might not get the picture otherwise, so very good. Yes. That’s awesome. Can I ask you about? Maybe something we’ve touched on so far? But due to your specific marriage, how have you had the opportunity to serve God or get to know God?

30:59
Well, yeah, it’s everything I realized, you know, everything I’m working on through my marriage, I am now seeing how it parallels my relationship with God in so many ways. And, you know, it’s, you know, I said, you know, I started the blog, and I could see that, so many pieces of my life had been put together that I couldn’t see were part of a pattern that God was laying out for me. But it’s the whole, you know, let your mess be your marriage or your mess, be your message that so many people say, and that’s exactly what God has done. It’s it as I have been writing and learning and thinking so intently about my marriage, I just pulled closer and closer to God. And it’s, you know, he has put all these things together in my life to make me able to do what I’m doing. And even though, you know, some blogs get so much more traffic than mine does, and have so much broader readership. But when I get an email from one person that says, that got me thinking, or that was my aha moment, I know that that’s exactly what God wants me to be doing. One at a time.

32:25
That’s right. That’s so true. I love it. And that, you know, the cool thing about God is that we don’t know, at the end, you know, when we’re standing before him, the things that mattered most to him might be the things that mattered, mattered, least, you know, to the crowds, or whatever in this, you know, it’s just, it’s a cool thing about God, you know, that our treasures are going to be in heaven. And we’re not going to see them until we get there. So no, and you

32:53
know, I was at a writing Writers Conference last summer. And one of the speakers said, You know, Jesus said, Feed my lambs, and sometimes that’s one lamb at a time. And that’s so true, that, you know, some people the message they have, and the skills that they have, are really about reaching a lot of people at once, in my strength has always been one on one. And so the numbers are interesting, and they fascinate me when I look at my blog stats, but the truth is, every single post, I pray for one woman to be touched, and it always, I might not know, for months, but it always seems to be the case. So I write to one woman at a time.

33:41
That’s so great. Well, that’s so, so brilliant. And you can you can just hear Chris’s heart and everything that she shared. So definitely do check out her her blog, because it’s just, it’s full of the same kind of inspiring information and insights. No, can I ask you, Chris, what would be a program or a book that you could specifically recommend? And maybe even something that would help a woman that’s, that went through that same struggle that you went through?

34:08
You know, I think what I would actually suggest is a blog, the generous wife’s blog by Laurie Byerly. Because it’s not just about sex, it’s about heart. And that was, although sex was the thing that I worked on the most. It was that blog that really helped me see that there’s a spirit of generosity in that it was my heart that needed to change for my husband, not just my sexual habits. And I often suggest that women start there just to get their hearts softened and to think about marriage, the big picture of marriage, and she sometimes writes about sexual intimacy, but it’s really about an attitude of generosity for our husbands. So, the generous wife blog is where I often send women in when husbands write to me They say, Well, I want to give your blog to my wife, say until she’s ready. That’s a bad choice. But send her to Lori’s blog.

35:08
Oh, very cool. That’s good to hear. Now, just before we wrap up, if you could go back to year one of your marriage and sit yourself down, what would be one piece of advice that you would give you

35:23
to know that, to understand that for my husband, sexual intimacy was the means of emotional connection. I think that’s the one thing that so many women really don’t understand. It’s the one thing that I didn’t get that sex is the path for emotional connection for many men. And I wish I had known that about my husband. I, of course, I was so stubborn, I don’t know that I would have listened even to my future self at that point. But but that is the one thing that I think might have made a difference in my understanding, and it might have headed off some of our problems.

36:06
That’s amazing. And again, Chris has just been so generous with her insights and willingness to be open about the things past that she had to really work to change. And I just so grateful for that, Chris. So where can our audience find you specifically online?

36:23
I am forgiven wife.com. If you just Google the forgiven wife, I show up at the top of the page, apparently, which is kind of like forgiven wife.com. And then on Twitter, I’m forgiven wife. And you find my blog, you can click on, you know, Pinterest, and Facebook pages and all of that.

36:45
Very cool. Well, Chris has just been amazing, and full of goosebumps and, you know, wanting to cry at parts. And I just so grateful for your wisdom and willingness to share. Thank you so much.

36:57
Thank you so much for having me.

37:00
Absolutely. Was I right? Or was I right? That was just an awesome interview from Chris. Oh, my gosh, I just love her story. And I love her willingness to share and her humility and sharing, you know, the nitty gritty stuff that most of us would be, you know, embarrassed to say that we were wrong. And it’s time, it’s time to just suck it up and say, I’m sorry. So thank you so much, Chris. That’s just wonderful. I hope if you’re listening just, I just am so grateful for your story. It’s funny, I, my husband listened to the first half. And he said, you know, if I met her husband, I would have to shake his hand and say congratulations for making it through those 20 years. And honestly, I laughed, because I, I still don’t get how important this is to men. And literally I I should know by now, but I don’t. So if this is news to you just recognize you’re just in the very beginning of a journey, it is a journey. And I still am I’m obviously in the very beginning of a journey. And I’m learning every day and especially through my interviews, I just love how much I get to learn and discover through the experiences of these other really wise men and women that are so brave to share. All right, well, definitely check out delight your marriage.com for all the shownotes the resources, and in the link to the webinar, I’d love to have you on that one. Otherwise, I just want to spend a moment and pay if you would just do that with me. Father, I thank you so much that this wife is on the line listening right now. And God I just asked Father if she has issues understanding your perfect holy, good purposes, for sex in her marriage. God I just asked in Jesus name, that you would open her eyes, remind her that this is a gift that you gave to humanity that you created it and it’s your idea. And it’s to your glory that we engage in this gift. Lord, I pray that Chris’s message would just ring loud and clear in our hearts. Help us to understand God that this is something that we get to enjoy and get to know you better through and that might be the first step. So Lord, I just believe that you’re going to be changing people’s hearts. And I ask you to do that right now. Starting today. Amen. All right. Alright, again, I love you. Thank you so much for being here, and I’ll talk to you on Tuesday. Bye.

39:38
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Hi there! Belah here. Today I have Chris Taylor of forgivenwife.com shares the struggles that began with two decades of incredibly sparse intimacy. Sex was something she didn’t enjoy because of her guilt due to a promiscuous past. Listen to the pain that’s so evident as Chris shares how sex began to transform her marriage. Though it was a difficult road of humility and change in herself and in her marriage. Sex drew her closer to her husband and God.

Scripture/Quote:

• You turned my wailing into dancing; you removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy. Psalm 30:11
• Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Psalm 51:10

You’ll Discover:

• When Chris looks at her marriage, she would say that the first 20 years of her marriage was missing intimacy in every aspect.
• When she was in college, she found worth in the her short-lived relationships that were essentially hookups.
• She couldn’t understand sex as anything other than a power play.
• How her husband would initiate sex and she felt offended by his advances and he felt rejected.
• Sex always felt like it was for him and she would think about her grocery list waiting for it to end.
• When her husband was depressed because of his lost job, he stopped initiating and that was a cue that something was wrong.
• How she struggled for an entire year of pain to turn things around in intimacy.

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• Myers Briggs personality tests: 16personalities.com
• The Marriage Bed Forums boards.themarriagebed.com
• Sign up for the free, live Peni webinar (oral sex training for wives): delightyourmarriage.com/14

Tweetables:

• We were both very lonely in our marriage. Both of us.
• When he would open himself and be vulnerable, instead of responding positively, I would think he’s really digging deep to make me feel guilty so I’ll have sex.
• Now I understand he wasn’t giving me what I wanted it was because he felt so rejected.
• My husband would say, ‘I could live with sex once a month if you were really there for it’.
• I worked one little baby step at a time and I failed more times than I succeeded but eventually I got to a place where I was confident in sex.
• Sex was the thing that drove the wedge between me and God and it has also built the bridge back.
• Over time our marriages can change, but it does take a lot of time, a lot of persistence and a lot of grace for ourselves and for our spouses.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:00
delight your marriage episode 18.

0:04
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah rose.

0:21
Hey there, and welcome. This is belah rose, thank you so much for joining me today. And I just want to ask you to consider for a moment you saw the title, it’s about not letting your past get in the way of your present intimacy in your marriage. And I think so often we feel badly about either things that we’ve done, or honestly things that have been done to us where that it wasn’t fair, and we were maybe the victim of something that was really not okay. But also there are things that we have done in our past that have affected us. And, you know, it just makes us feel unworthy of what God is doing in our lives now. And today, I am so excited to share with you Chris’s story. Now Chris Taylor from the Forgiving wife.com has just an incredible story to share about how God has transformed her marriage from something that was honestly just so lonely and sad and cold, isolating. But you’ll hear in her story that God wasn’t done with her. Even though she felt guilt about her past. Even though there were things she felt like she didn’t deserve. You know what God was not done with her. He wanted her to have a good and fulfilling marriage. And I want you to know he wants that for you as well. So go ahead and dive into this. Listen to what Chris has to share. And I just believe that this is going to help so many marriages, She’s so brave to share how she had to really change the way she was thinking in her marriage. And thank God, because it’s really cool what has happened. So listen in and I’ll talk to you on the other side

2:25
Alright, welcome back, delight your marriage listeners. I am really thrilled to have Chris Taylor on the show today from the forgiven wife. And she writes at forgiven wife.com. And she’s just got a great story. And we’re gonna dive into so much about her marriage and her life right now. So Chris, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

2:45
Well, thank you for inviting me, this is nice. Well, I’m

2:49
really thrilled. And it’s, it’s gonna be great. May I ask you, if you could just introduce yourself and your family and kind of what your day to day life looks like?

2:59
Well, my day to day life, I don’t really know what it’s like we’ve been in so much transition the past year or so. I live in southeastern Wisconsin with my husband, Doug. And we have three young adult kids. One is away at school and informs us that she doesn’t need to live with us because she is all grown up now. And she can take care of things. And it’s a good thing. And then I have two sons who right now live with us. But they’re both trying trying to move out. So you know, family life is in transition. I lost my job a year ago, which was difficult. But it also opened up all sorts of time and space for me to do more ministry work, more writing more editing. So right now I you know, teach one class at a local college, and I spend a lot of time online reading and writing and doing editing work. So my day to day life is I’m still trying to figure out what that is. Yeah, but it’s fun. And I like having the time. And it’s nice to be at home to do that.

4:03
I love that. And I’m sure so many that are listening can relate to that. Because I feel like I could point to almost any point in my life and be like, Well, that was a transition time.

4:12
My whole life is transition. And really

4:15
is. And you know, I mean, that is what life is. And that’s why our relationship with God is so important because we can trust him in the midst of WoW, things are moving all the time. But I’m just grateful that you’re sharing so openly, because I really think that people can relate with that. Now, would you share a little bit about you and your husband’s personalities?

4:33
Oh, my gosh, that’s such a funny question. Because we are totally opposite in every possible way. You know, we’ve we’ve both done, like Myers Briggs Type indicators, and I’m INFP and he’s, he es TJ, you know, so total opposites, or opposite ends of the spectrums. Politically, we have I’m an extreme introvert, he’s an extreme extrovert. I mean, it’s just, you know, together we make a very funny Really flushed out one person. But we are, we are completely opposite and so many ways. But that’s been very good for both of us. You know, he, he likes to live in the present. And you know, I’m one who wants to anticipate all the possible things that could happen and plan for how we’re going to deal with certain things. And he says, Why are you spending all that energy thinking about something that we might not ever have to think about? Because then I’ll be prepared. So, you know, it’s so, so strange. Sometimes when people look at us, how did you two end up together? Well, you know, we flush each other out. So it works. And we make each other laugh. And that is, that is the one thing that just pulled us both to each other was sense of humor, and he is the only person who’s ever made me laugh. Like he does.

5:52
Oh, I love that. And I love that you shared that that’s really together you are very like, as is your your strengths kind of fit into each other’s strengths and weaknesses fit into each other, you know, kind of like, yeah, what I should be really

6:07
what he doesn’t do well, I do very well, and vice versa. And our kids have benefited because they have, you know, not grown up thinking there’s one single way to be, yeah. And they’ve pulled from both of us. And you know, we can look at each of the kids and see how their bits and pieces of each of us in that unique human being. And you know, it he certainly has challenges, though, to be so opposite from each other. But at the same time, we can see how that has been an amazing part of how God has put us together and how we benefit from that. But it is

6:46
amazing. Yeah. Well, it sounds like also, I mean, you right? And so you’re you’re very intellectual in terms of your thinker, and you process and analytical. And it’s interesting, it’s not as though I’m imagining your husband is similar if you have polar opposite. Oh, no, no, what is he like,

7:02
in terms of he talks? I mean, he’s a talker, and I’m a writer, I am the one who’s very self aware, you know, everything I write in my blog, I’m able to pull back exactly what I was thinking and feeling, you know, 20 years ago? And I’ll say, How do you How did you feel when I did such and such last week? And he’ll say, Honey, you know, I don’t think deep thoughts like that. i That’s not me, that’s you, you tell me what I thought. And so, you know, and I process everything visually, and through, you know, lots of thinking and introspection and self awareness. And he talks through things, which just interferes. So, you know, if he wants me to, if he wants to share something that he sees online, he’ll read it to me out loud. And then I have to take it from him and read it for myself visually, because I cannot process what I’m hearing. Wow. But you know, we’ve made it work.

7:59
Yeah. No, I love that. Well, it’s wonderful. I, that’s the reason I asked this question is because I think so often, in our marriages, we think we’re the only ones that are going through whatever difficulty is, and so especially personalities, sometimes, you know, you get married, and you get a couple years into your into your marriage, and you’re like, oh, my gosh, we are total opposites. And you think that’s a huge negative thing. Whereas I love that you frame it in a way of we together, can complement each other and make go make a great life together. I love that. Well,

8:30
it is how God helped us be whole, I think.

8:33
Yeah, yeah, I love that. So this, this podcast is all about inspiring and empowering wives in the marriage. So I’d love if you could share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years, or even recently.

8:47
Well, I have, I always find myself going back to the Psalms. When I’m, you know, undergoing a great deal of stress over something. It’s always the psalms that I turn to, they just, they inspire me, they comfort me. And they remind me that I’m not the only one who has problems. Sometimes it is dealing with anger and frustration toward God. And the Psalm has always helped me feel better about those feelings. But the one that I think well, there are two actually, but the one that really stands out the most is from Psalm 30. It’s verse 11. You turn to my wailing into dancing, and you remove my sackcloth and clothed me with joy. And when I think about my marriage, there was so much time when I was miserable, and God has turned that wailing and mourning I was doing for so many years about the sad state of our marriage, and he’s turned that into joy. And it’s just, it’s, it sort of just captures what God has done in our marriage. The other one that really stands out is Psalm 51, verse 10. And that is creating me a clean heart, O God. and renew a right spirit within me. And that one speaks to what God did not within our marriage, but within me. Because so much of what changed through our marriage and the means that God used to turn my wailing into dancing was by helping me have a clean heart and opening my heart and transforming it into what it should have been all along. Those two verses are just, they speak the most to what I’ve gone through the last few years, I think,

10:33
Wow, well, you’ve definitely piqued my interest in into the story. So I’m really glad that we can move into that next because what how this really applies to your marriage. And, and I just love your humility in how, you know, you mentioned how you lived and how you are now how you’ve changed. I mean, I know when I was, so I was married before my current marriage. And I know when I was in that terrible place in my marriage, I was so defensive about how I was living and how I was acting, because I was just so insecure. I mean, that was all I was, I was trying to justify myself and trying to act like I was right the whole time. And I know there are so many things, I think God has been kind to reveal to me now that I completely did wrong and made mistakes and these kinds of things. But, but I just love you were able to stay in the marriage and make huge changes and, and come out on the other side, which is incredible.

11:28
Yeah, it really it really has been. I like to think it’s because I did certain things. But really, it was God because I certainly couldn’t have changed. Turn this marriage around by myself.

11:41
Wow. Cool, well, can we jump right in, then I’d love to hear about difficult season or struggle in your marriage. And you know, for the benefit of those that are going through the same things, really. But yeah, go right ahead.

11:56
Well, we’ve been married. In April, we have our 24th anniversary. So we’ve been married, you know, almost a quarter century and for the first nearly 20 years, so two decades of our marriage. It was not, it wasn’t that it was awful. But it was not good. And it was not healthy. And the problem. When I look back, I see that the real problem was the lack of intimacy. And I don’t just mean that as a euphemism for sex. Neither one of us was fully sharing ourselves with each other. And it became this sort of Crazy Cycle. I brought in to the marriage, a whole lot of sexual baggage. I had horrible self esteem as a young woman. And the only time I ever got any attention from guys was when they were interested in sex. So I went through a phase in college when I was very promiscuous. And, you know, felt very much like damaged goods. So even once I got to the point of thinking, well, this isn’t good for me, and I shouldn’t be doing this. I felt like I had lost the right to have anything better. And that was the young woman who came into this relationship with my husband, somebody who didn’t feel she believed that she deserved anything better. You know, some of my, well, I can’t really even call them relationships. We weren’t calling them hookups, then. But that’s pretty much what some of those things were. And I had learned all these horrible lessons about sex, that sex is for men, that sex is not about emotional connection, that it’s something that I can do that gives me power over somebody else. And that it’s the only thing of value in me. So, you know, I meet this guy who is from a very godly family, with parents who have a good marriage, and are affectionate with each other. And he has a mother who’s not an emotional, I mean, not that she’s not emotional at all, but she has a fairly even temper. And he ends up with this woman whose emotions are all over the map. I live, I always say I live my life on an emotional landscape. My feelings drive, everything. And so there’s this, you know, broken down self worth damaged woman with this guy who’s basically a decent guy and fairly healthy. And neither one of us knew what to do with the other. And every time you know, he would initiate sex, I needed that emotional connection. I needed to feel it. Not physically, but I need to I needed to feel in my heart that he loved me not just for sex. But, you know, his initial initiation would be things like well, I’m horny, or do you want to? Well, no, I want you to make me want it. Right. But the process of me saying that and made him feel rejected. So we kind of got on this horrible merry go round that was just became this sort of tornado where it just got worse and worse and worse. And, you know, there was one year when we had what was, you know, clinically speaking, when when experts say there’s a sexless marriage, it means that there’s sex 10 or fewer times a year. And there was one year when we hit that. And sexual frequency was, you know, maybe once a month, maybe twice a month. So frequency was bad, he always knew that there was likely to be a no more than a yes. It never occurred to me that sex was for me too. And then even when we were, what I would, you know, cave in and have sex with him. I would barely participate, I was resistant, you know, he had to do all the work, I would be lying back doing my grocery list in my head waiting for him to get done.

16:06
So, you know, it was just this horrible thing. And it finally you know, his industry got hit hard by the economy. So in 2008 2008 2009, he lost his job. And then over the next several years, he had several jobs that didn’t last because, you know, the, the dominoes of the economy were kind of falling down. And he just kind of happened to be, you know, last one hired his first one fired. So he, he was unemployed for a great deal out of, I think, out of a five year period. So he was home feeling depressed, and he started to lose even an interest in sex. And he stopped, even trying to initiate, which kind of created some space for me to start thinking, while something’s going on. And he stopped laughing. And I stopped laughing. And, you know, I would read these articles that would say, Well, what was it that drew you to your husband in the first place? And I would think, well, we laughed, but we don’t do that anymore. something’s broken, something’s wrong. And we were just miserable. And I think we probably, you know, I think we probably would have ended up divorced if we had continued the way things had been going. Although I think it would have been just as likely for us to stay and be platonic roommates and barely even have a friendship. And we were both very lonely in our marriage, both of us. So it was a very difficult time. And you know, we would have these talks about sex, and he would, for such a unknown, self aware guy, he revealed so much of his heart to me. And instead of me thinking, Wow, he’s really sharing his heart, I would think, Oh, he’s really digging deep to try to make me feel guilty and make me have sex. And I would just, you know, the more he would open himself up and be vulnerable, the more I would build up these walls between us, because I thought it was only about sex, and that I expected, you know, I had expected all these other guys in my past, to value me only for sex. I wanted more from my husband. And he wasn’t giving me that, which now I understand was because he was feeling so rejected. And he couldn’t be that vulnerable with somebody who he felt was rejecting him. I mean, it was just this awful spiral where it just got worse and worse and worse as it went on. Right. But we were both lonely, and miserable. So our season of, you know, our difficult season of marriage lasted nearly two decades. Thank goodness,

18:54
I’m just so grateful that you’re sharing this story. And I thank you so much for being open with it. Because it is not uncommon, which is, I mean, I’m interested in how how you were able to kind of shift things. What was the catalyst that kind of made things start moving in a different direction?

19:15
Well, I think once he, you know, once I recognize that he was depressed, and he stopped pursuing me. I think that gave me a little bit of space, to not constantly feel on edge. Like I was constantly having to protect myself against his advances. You know, heaven forbid, I do anything that might give him any ideas that he wants to have sex, because you know, that would be horrible. Yep. So when he stopped the pursuit, I began to think about things and you know, I think God had been working on me for a long time and I finally just got worn down enough that I couldn’t resist God anymore. And my heart had begun to soften At one point, I remember standing there looking at my husband. And thinking, yeah, it would really be nice to have a good marriage. But I don’t deserve that, after all the things that I did, as a young woman, in the promiscuity, I just, you know, the guilt was just weighing me down. And I thought, I don’t deserve a good marriage. And it suddenly hit me. But maybe he does. And it’s not really fair that I’m dragging him down with my guilt. And I didn’t know what to do with that feeling. But it was there. And then in, you know, this whole thing had, I had just built these walls up, not just between me and my husband, but between me and God. So I didn’t even want to go to church. I didn’t want to pray. Because, you know, God had taken my husband’s job away. God had made my husband as sex crazed maniac, and God probably didn’t love me anyway.

21:01
So one Sunday morning, Doug went to church without me because I just we’d had a huge sex fight the night before. And he went to church and I was sitting in the living room couch online, I think I pulled up, you know, was on CNNs website or something. And there was this article about Christians having sex. And I thought, oh, you know, after all, that he’s whined about sex. Maybe, maybe I need to think about trying to do something different. I don’t have a clue what that would mean. Maybe I’ll at least read the article. And, and maybe they’ll, I was thinking, you know, maybe it’ll give me something to convince him that he’s wrong. But I’ll at least look at the article. And one of the little sidebar articles linked to the discussion forums at the marriage bed, website with Paula Paula Maury by earlies website. And I went on there and looked at one particular thread, and it was all, you know, people sharing people whose spouses had rejected them sexually talking about what it was like, and sharing different, you know, metaphors and analogies. And you know, I’m in a seeking boat and, and they were sharing their hearts, they were saying the exact same things that Doug had been telling me for years. But somehow seeing, not just that other people were saying the same thing. But seeing that this was the volume, the number of people saying the same thing. It just hit me that that was, I had not had this empathy for my husband. I had not been able to see things from his perspective until I heard his words from other voices. And reading those things, and the sheer pain that came through, I ended up sobbing in the living room floor completely broken. It hit me so hard what I had done. And I had no idea what to do. You know, it’s like, okay, now I get, I have killed my husband’s heart. How do I even start now. And that was where God was right there. The moment that I was broken, was the moment that I started healing. And I didn’t know how to turn it around. But I looked, and I thought I can do one thing. I can do one thing today, what is it, and I spent a lot of time really considering the things that he’d complained about over the years, you know, frequent sexual frequency was a big issue. But the thing that really had stood out was that for all this time, you know, he had said, I could live with sex with sex just once a month, if you are really there for it, you know, none of this lie back and wait for it to be overall I do my grocery list. And I thought, Okay, I’ll work on that. That’s the one thing I’ll start with, it was his biggest complaint. So I thought, if I can try to become more present for sex, that will at least be one thing that he can’t complain about anymore. And maybe that will make him less depressed. And maybe that will make things better. And it did. I worked one little baby step at a time. And I failed more than I succeeded, but I kept at it. And eventually, I got so that I was not only able to participate in sex, I was able to do it very well, and feel confident about it. And then I could look at the next thing, and then the next thing after that, and it was really, God just kept me being persistent. And he never let me forget that I’m going to being broken and sobbing on my living room floor. So many times I wanted to give up, and that I failed. But I always thought back to that moment of where my heart just broke down and realized what I had been doing to my husband. In the remember, remembering of that was what gave me the persistence to keep going. And, you know, I think the first six months, I don’t know, it, my husband noticed, but he didn’t think it was on purpose. He was afraid to say anything, because he might jinx it. Maybe she doesn’t realize what she’s doing. But as soon as I pointed out, she’ll say, Oh, I’m sorry, I’ll stop now.

25:44
Right? I didn’t know the depression.

25:47
No, heaven forbid, the first six months, were were very difficult because he was not, you know, he was not responding or acting any differently than he always had only me the second six months or even harder, because then he realized that I was doing it on purpose. And it became, he started to feel a little safer, and really expressing some of those feelings he had repressed. So his anger at me, his sadness, it all became safe to express. And he was really difficult to be around. Because he kept thinking, if you can do this now, why couldn’t you do this? 10 years ago, when I was begging you, why couldn’t you do it then. So that first year, if it weren’t for God pulling me through, and keeping that memory of that brokenness, I would have given up many times. But after the first year, we laughed again. And then I knew it was all gonna be okay. And there’s been so much growth since that first year. But it was when we were laughing together again, and we’re back at that relationship that we’ve had, when we first met. That’s when I knew that what I had done, really had made a difference. Gosh, oh, my gosh, I’m just blown away, Chris. I just like, God broke me and pick me back up. And, you know, it was a really, it was that first year was so so very hard. But now, it’s so different. And, you know, I, it’s a story of my marriage. But it’s really the story of all these different things God did to draw me closer to Him. Because all those walls I’d had up between me and my husband, there were even bigger walls between me and God. And even since I’ve worked on things in the marriage, God has kept working on me, and he’s used, you know, that sex was the thing that put these walls up between me and God in the first place. Yet, that is the same thing that God has used to pull me back to him. So sort of the thing that drove the wedge between us has built the bridge back. And it’s just, it’s been amazing. And, you know, our marriage now is just, you know, it’s, it’s not that it’s perfect. We still, you know, we have arguments, and there are still times when we get on each other’s nerves. And, you know, we’ve, we’ve recently moved, so there’s a lot of stress, and neither one of us is at our best. But the difference is that instead of having those things push us further apart, we know that those things are happening on a foundation of intimacy, and health. And so, you know, we, we bicker a little bit, and we, you know, aren’t happy with each other, but then we know that we’re able to come back together, sexually and otherwise. And that that kind of pulls us back and reground us in what our marriage is. And then everything’s okay, again. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So this marriage that we were both so lonely and has just become such a source of joy and comfort for both of us. Oh,

29:23
my goodness. Wow. Well, I mean, there’s so many wonderful keys that you shared. And I take notes when I record these interviews. And already, it’s completely filled. I can’t even mention everything I want to just brand, how marvelous each of these points are. And it’s clear, you’ve thought a lot about this and process so well. But the fact that you were in a marriage for 20 years and how the status quo and had this is the way I interact in my marriage, this is our pattern. This is our culture. We’ve developed over two decades to be able to change that. I mean, Mike Gosh, not only to be able to change what you’ve done for 20 years, which takes a lot of humility, a lot of being willing to just accept and push through and keep going and trust God that things are going to ship eventually, but for a year for it to have been so difficult to process your husband, I mean, I’m just so grateful that you shared that, especially because I think sometimes we think that, well, I need to change. So he’s got to, you know, step up, now I’m ready for the response, the feedback, the positive,

30:31
exactly, I’ve finally given him what he’s been begging him the light before. So why isn’t he happy? Right? Well, you know, I very much can look at it my process of growth and my healing, and I can see that, but what I think it’s so easy for women, in my situation, to not remember is that husbands heal too. And that just as my healing has, is a process. So his his, and his healing, couldn’t even start until he realized that I was doing this on purpose, and that it wasn’t just a fluke, that was going to go away. So I think, you know, Doug’s healing didn’t really begin until six months in, and that anger and frustration that I got from him, those were the first pieces of his healing. And somehow, you know, I persisted. And I think even then, God was letting me know that this is part of what my husband needed to go through, in order to get to a place where we could be okay. But it is really hard. And I and I hear from women all the time, you know, I’ve been doing this and it’s been six weeks, and he’s no different. Okay, sweetie, keep it up another six months. And then in, you know, the thing is, we can’t do things. We can’t go through this change to get our husbands to change, because that’s, that’s on their husbands, their healing is their business. What I needed to do, as soon as I realized what I had done to my husband, I knew that I needed to do something differently, even if it was too late. And too little. I knew that God was telling me that I needed to be a different kind of wife. And I needed to do that regardless of Doug’s response. And it was, it’s the hardest thing I’ve done in my life. And it was completely worth it. But it was hard. It was really, really hard for a year. And then it wasn’t as hard. And it’s gotten easier since then. So you know, I still have occasional moments when he’ll say something in a way that just makes me bristle. And I’m thinking, really, that’s what you want. I just need to have some emotional cuddling in this way. If so, you know, I still have those responses that start to bubble up in me, but I learned to move past them. And I no longer let my feelings drive my actions like I did. And I can say to him, honey, I’m really having a hard time processing the words that you just used. I know your intentions were good. Can you just give me a few minutes, and help me settle down, and then we can, we can proceed. And because he knows that that’s not me trying to put things off that it really is going to happen? Right? He’s happy to do that for me. Yeah, it’s not just another ploy of me trying to say something that’s gonna push him off, which is what he always thought it was before. Right. So you know, as wives, we need to do what we need to do, because it’s what God expects of us, and what God wants us to be as wives. And I think, over time, our marriages can change. And over time, our husbands can relax. But it does take a lot of time and a lot of persistence, and a lot of grace for ourselves and for our spouses.

34:02
Yep. And I love that you mentioned the change being such a process. And not only was it the year of significant challenge, but then even after that, here and there, you still have to push through even now. And I think anyone who’s had a significant transformation, maybe you started out in a difficult spot, growing up, maybe maybe there were some challenges or abuses that kind of thing. You’ve had to change your personality, you know, I mean, I struggled with bulimia for years. And so that change didn’t happen overnight, even though the actual actions changed overnight. You know, I did stop that habit. But they’re still even even now. They’re still different, you know, thought processes that I have to recognize now that’s unhealthy. That’s not right. That’s not godly. That’s not God honoring, and I have to still conform to his image even even even years later.

34:55
And those scripts I don’t think those scripts ever completely leave our heads. They’re there. The difference is that I now have new scripts to push back against those old bad ones from the enemy. But sometimes it’s not as easy as other times, men. So you know, I am good at giving myself some grace and recognizing that, you know, it is a process. And yeah, you know, it’s okay that you stumbled and you, you know, you wanted to say no, or that you really didn’t feel like you weren’t fully engaged this time. Right? It’s okay, that happens sometimes, as long as you’re getting back up, get back in the saddle, so to speak, and do better next time. And my husband also, there are still times when he won’t be completely honest about what he wants. Because there’s still this part of him that says she won’t, she won’t agree to it. Or she wouldn’t want to have sex anyway. Because I taught him that over those two decades, he learned that no, is the default response. And he can’t I can’t expect him to unlearn those things any more than I can expect me to completely unlearn everything else. It’s a process. And we’re, we’re just both in such a different spot. But that doesn’t mean that we’re that those old habits aren’t underneath they’re wanting to bubble up.

36:22
Yeah, yeah. And one part I wanted to just pull out from your story is, sex was the thing that drove me away from God. And it’s also the thing that brought me back to him. I mean, that’s just so brilliant. And I think that is definitely my story. Because of my promiscuous past, prior to being married the second time and just having these all these hurt feelings towards God about it. So I just love that, I’d love for you to kind of go into that a little bit more that how sex actually brought you to God, because I think a lot of times women still have this mentality that well, sex is bad, and sex shouldn’t be part of my life, and I shouldn’t really be enjoying it. And I mean, how did you kind of get into something

37:03
else? Well, you know, I, I didn’t have an upbringing, that, you know, my parents didn’t really say much about sex. So you know, I didn’t grow up with any of this teaching that says that sex is ungodly. My parents didn’t say anything one way or the other about whether I should save sex for marriage. So, you know, I was, I felt a lot of guilt. But I think a lot of that was more cultural. At least I thought, but you don’t know I’m looking at it. God was trying to press these things on my heart. And I just didn’t know that that was God. So you know, they actually this this realization that that was the you know, the tool that was the wedge became the tool that was the healing. I realized that last week, I was, I was writing something, I woke up and I just had this stuff I needed to write. And as I was writing this down, and all of a sudden, that just hit me. How amazing God is that the very thing that I had let pushed me away from God was the thing that God used to just pull me back. And you know, it was it was the promiscuous sex, that drove me away. Or that I let pull me away. It wasn’t anything driving me away, it was me really feeling unworthy of being in God’s presence, because it was so dirty and bad and damaged. And when I began to work on sex in my marriage, you know, I always had thought, well, let’s work on the relationship. But once the relationships fine, then sex will just be a natural thing. And I was, I was a perfect example of somebody who said, you know, act first, and the belief in the feeling will follow. And it really, I think, was two, two and a half years into the process, when I got really settled enough into the sexual intimacy in our marriage, and that that was really healed, that God, I could see God pulling me towards him. And I could see that it wasn’t really about the marriage all along. It was really, God wanted me to heal the marriage, because he wanted to pull me closer to him. And it was just one of those things where, you know, little pieces of things started to pull together and you know, I think, you know, my, my journey of change and transformation started in you know, it was September 2010. And it was just about two years ago now, it was April 2013. That I started the blog. And, you know, I I remember sitting there thinking I could, completely unprepared to do this that I was thinking about Moses being told to go talk to Pharaoh, but God, who am I? And I thought, oh, yeah, I’m so like Moses. But you know those words from Exodus for coming, but But who am I, I don’t have the words. And what I heard from God was I have prepared you. What do you, what are you talking about? Well, then I was able to look back at all these different things in my life. And the times when I had been, you know, talking to other young women about their relationships and counseling, and encouraging them, I thought about all the different the what volunteer work I had done in my life that I’d found most meaningful was in helping women. I did some volunteer work with women in high risk pregnancies, because I had spent three and a half months on bedrest when I was pregnant with my twins. And I did some online support for women with gynecological health problems. So I could see all these little things. And then God reminded me, you have a master’s degree in writing, why do you think I did that? And my career that I’d had for, since the late 1980s, I was a writing teacher, the college college writing instructor. And I thought, Well, duh, all these pieces that I never, I always thought that I was just sort of, you know, wishy washy, and flitting from one thing to another. And now I can see that those are all different pieces of things that God had to put into place. So that I could do this. And, you know, I, when I started the blog, I thought, oh, you know, I’m fine. Now. I’m finished. I’m a finished product. I can sit there and do this. I think I have grown more with God. Since starting the blog than I did before, then. Yeah, I think the blog is for me and anyone else?

42:10
Yes, yes, I hear that.

42:14
So all these different pieces of things, you know, and he’s his I’ve written about sexual intimacy in marriage, I have experienced so many moments of self awareness, and my relationship with God. And so it’s just It amazes me that I’m writing something and I ought my prayer with every single blog post is that at least one woman have her heart touched by what I’m writing. And there are times that I’ll write something, and I’ll get no comments. And, you know, no shares on Facebook or Twitter. And I sit there and I think, Wow, that was a dud. And then three months later, I’ll get an email from some woman who says, I just ran across this, and I have to tell you, that post changed my life. Oh, my goodness. And I, you know, that just blows me away. And I’m so amazed and humbled that God blessed me be part of that. Yes. And that’s just who am I to get to be part of anybody else’s healing, uh, just you being God’s tool. It’s an amazing thing. And at the same time, there are other posts when I don’t get any feedback at all. But I know that I gained something from the writing of it. And God reminds me, every one every post will be touch at least one woman and sometimes it’s okay, if that one woman is you. Though, I am my own audience sometimes.

43:48
Yes, yes. And it’s funny. I know that. There’s just so many books and things that I’ve read myself that have changed my life that I might build all my girlfriends, but I’ve never reached out to the author.

43:59
So well. Just, you know, sometimes we hear from people but there’s so many more people who never respond, who we just, we don’t know. We don’t know who we’re reaching. But God does.

44:19
So well put, Chris, we don’t know who we’re reaching, but God does. So if you can hear my voice right now. God knows your name. He’s got a plan for your life. And he loves you so deeply. And he knows you’re listening to this. This is part of his plan. It’s not a mistake that you’re here right now. I just want to encourage you if there were some pieces of Chris’s story that ring true for you. Just encourage you to hold those in your heart. ponder them, pray about them. Consider them. If you’ve been holding back from intimacy with your husband. Now’s the time to indulge a little bit more, to jump in to the ocean to stop standing on the sidelines, but get in there and engage. And you just don’t know what God’s gonna do on the other side. I mean, look, Chris really persisted and battled and went for it. And for a year, it was hard, it was really hard. And yet, look what’s happened. Look at what has happened, what God has done through her persistence, the grace that He has given her for the work that she has also done. I’m just so grateful for her story in the next episode, Episode 19, actually, will be the second half. And Chris has just so many more insights to share. You can tell she’s a quite a deep thinker. And she just really lays it out next time, about the reason she thinks her marriages survived and the way it looks today. And she’s got a pretty great intimacy tip that I don’t want you to miss. The other thing I’d like to mention now I know this is a longer episode. Thanks for sticking with me. But today is the webinar I’ve been talking about the specifics of Penny, which is oral sex in the context of marriage. Now, this is a webinar only for wives. So ladies, please come on. It’s Tuesday, 8pm Eastern Standard Time, you can find out more information at delight, your sorry, delight your marriage.com/fourteen I would love, love, love to have you there’s a bunch of ladies already signed up. I’ve gotten some emails, I mean, there is some excitement about this. And honestly, I am excited. I feel like as I was preparing for this webinar, God just downloaded so much insight. You know, when you’re just you take that step of faith, it’s a little scary, but you just start and you go for it. God so honors that I I’ve just found it time and time again, I’m a little scared. I go for it. Anyway, I pray about it while I’m doing it. And then God just honors it. So I’m really excited. I hope you can join me it’s eight o’clock tonight. And if you’re not an Eastern Standard Time, just just figure out the conversion, whatever, sign up, and I will see you soon. If you’re listening to this in the future, I’m hoping that I will have another one. So again, go to delight your marriage.com/fourteen. And we will talk soon, my friend. Thank you so much for your open heart. When you listen to these podcasts. I know it takes a lot to really hear a story and let it get inside of you and let God transform you through it. But I believe today was an opportunity to do that. If you need to listen to it again and hear the pain and the trials that Chris went through and see what God wants to do in your own life and marriage. I’d say go for it. But until next time, I love you. I’m praying for you and God that He would just bless your marriage and your life and most of all your walk with him. I’ll talk to you soon.

48:06
Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion

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Hi there! Belah here. Today I have Bonny talking about her story. Bonny of oysterbed7.com has been married for 20+ years. Her story is about God’s redeeming power of something that could have broke them. Bonny was raising 3 kiddos almost single-handedly when she learned of a secret that caused her so much pain.

Scripture/Quote:

• Psalm 27:13-14 “I remain confident of this: I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord.”
• Romans 15:13 “May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.”
• Ephesians 5:21 “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.”

You’ll Discover:

• Bonny was surprised by a sad revelation about her marriage, in the midst of caring for her kids by herself it almost broke her.
• It was only when Bonny said she was totally broken that she had to rely completely on God and He brought her the resources.
• She admits that though her husband made serious mistakes, she also didn’t understand or meet his needs.
• As we’ve all felt I’m sure: “Who wants to make love when you don’t feel valued?” But what she learned “His way of showing my value and connection was through sexual intimacy”.
• She shares exactly how she was able to extend him grace. The grace that ultimately saved her marriage.
• She says “some of our husbands were exposed to pornography very early. So when daddy yells at them or tells them they’re stupid or worse and they happen upon porn, what a fun release. For 10 min they can forget that Dad just called them an idiot”. What an insight!
• She goes on to share that this addiction early is actually a intimacy disorder, that can be “grown out of” with hard work.

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• Christian Women’s Job Corp facebook.com/CwjcILM
• The Dyamic Marriage Class that helped transform their marriage after the difficult season: familydynamics.net/dynamic-marriage
•  Surfing For God: Discovering the Divine Desire Beneath Sexual Struggle
• Study about PTSD Symptoms from a sex addiction revelation

Tweetables:

• He had needs that I didn’t understand and I had needs that he didn’t understand.
• We get stuck in the thought of ‘I’m never going to change, this is the way I am’. No you can evolve. You give it to God, and He’ll change you.
• He didn’t understand I needed conversation to feel connected. I just wanted to meet him over coffee and he wanted to meet me in the bedroom.
• You have to not put your foot down in the very beginning and say I’m never going to forgive you. Let yourself process through the rage it’s healthy. But don’t stay there.
• What happens in childhood is not your fault. You have to heal from it, but it’s not your fault.
• If you are having any kind of sexual issue, don’t struggle alone.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:00
delight your marriage episode 16. Bravo, bravo. Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, the show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:26
Hello, and welcome. I’m so glad that you’re here today with me, thank you for coming. Yes, that was my son, he’s, let’s see, 21 months and full of energy and a lot of fun, but also trying Have patience. I feel like I’m learning patience more every single day, and having to rely on God for that. So anyway, I want to just welcome you if this is your first time, this is really a podcast for wives, to encourage them, inspire them and help them really live wholeheartedly in their marriage. And that means intimacy in every part. So I just want to say that sometimes we think that marriage is like a, you know, some kind of a, if you think of like a pie chart where one person gives 50%, the other person gives 50%. And then you get to the end of your life and you have a happy marriage or something. The reason I don’t like that analogy is because who’s to judge really, I mean, God’s the judge, and we don’t know what our husband went through in his past that caused him to come to this place today. In the same way, he can’t judge you and figure out why you are the way you are. But as a wife, as one part of the equation, you can be proactive, you can do everything you can to make this thing work. And you know what, today is a story of an amazing woman named Bonnie. And you can hear that she was not willing to accept the cards that she was given the difficulty that came her way the choices her husband made that hurt her so deeply. She was not willing to just give up. No, this woman fought and she fought hard. And you can hear at the end of the day, she’s got an incredible marriage and incredible family. And I just want you to dive into her story and just listen to the insights that she gives, that are wrought through years of pain. And I’m just grateful for her story. So I hope that you’ll really, really be benefited and inspired through this. I’ll catch you on the other side enjoy.

2:51
Miss Bonnie from oyster bed seven is here with us. Hi, Bonnie, how are you today?

2:58
Hi, Bella. I’m doing fabulous. Thank you. I’m delighted to be here.

3:03
Oh, I’m so glad. And and we like that we’re delighted. So awesome. Well, would you go ahead and share a little bit about yourself and your day to day life? And what that looks like,

3:17
Oh, my day to day life? Well, let’s let’s I want to tell you what my day to day life used to look like. I used to be corralling three little boys. I had a husband who traveled a lot for business. And so as those that it was just crazy, you know, single mom, three little children that were within three years because a set of twins. And there was a lot of the our marriage started to disconnect because of business travel and little children. And then as the children grew, then then my day to day life look like getting them to elementary school and going to a part time job and still having a husband who traveled a lot. And now my day to day life is much different. My day to day life is calm and just at peace. And it’s not just because my three little boys are now three little men is because my marriage has evolved. And we still deal with a lot of business travel, but we’ve learned how to manage our connection in spite of it.

4:25
Wow, that’s awesome. Well, and we’re going to dive more into that soon. So I’m excited for that. Would you share a little bit about you and your husband’s personalities and how that works? Sure.

4:38
Our personalities are kind of feisty. He is He is quiet with a lot of surprises. He’s very introspective. And yet he can be very stubborn. But he’s a man who’s willing to evolve and he’s also got a great sense of humor. He’s very funny. He likes to twist words and, and I love laughing at him. I and my, and my personality is I’m more. I’m more reticent, although I can be the big talker in the family, I’m usually kind of reserved, he would disagree. But, and I like to have fun and joke, but I also like to be serious with people. And I like to help people, I like to point them in the right direction. I like to walk alongside of them while they’re hurting. And that’s my passion is helping hurting women.

5:39
Actually, I know I talked to you before. And could you share a little bit about your other endeavor? Aside from oyster beds seven that you shared with me about?

5:49
I’d love to I am chairman of a board a very small outreach program in Wilmington, Wilmington, North Carolina is called Christian women’s job corps. It’s been around since the 90s, our particular particular sites about 12 years old, we empower impoverished and hurting women through job skills, life skills, and Bible knowledge. And all of our women are paired with mature Christian mentors. And that is the key. We work with a covenant with the we call them protegees, or women that come to us they go through an intake interview, to make sure it’s the right fit. But it’s it’s all about walking with them towards stability. And stability looks different for different people. So we have to take that into account. But that’s, that’s my other passion is watching women grow. What God has purposed them to be confident women with the purpose.

6:50
That’s awesome. It’s such an amazing mission.

6:52
We also have a Facebook page to us, CW JC, I LM,

6:58
I’m sure people will want to check that out and see how they can support because it’s just amazing. And I’ll have this all in the show notes. So if anyone wants to go to delight, your marriage.com All of this is going to be linked up so you can easily just click on it. So that’s great. Okay, awesome. Well, this whole podcast, the whole purpose is really to empower and inspire women, in their marriages and in their intimacy with God as well. So would you be willing to share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years?

7:26
Well, actually, there’s three. I’m just one, I guess that’s part of my personality. I can’t ever just pick one. But my, what my, my grounding through. through hard times of our marriage was Psalm 27. And I’m flipping to it here, I’m sorry. Psalm 27. At the very end, it’s all about you know, The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The very last two verses are, I am still confident of this, I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living, wait for the Lord, be strong, and take heart and wait for the Lord. That gave me two things that gave me that empowered my patience, that I had to wait to see him. But the second was that he would give me good things here. And now I didn’t have to just wait for heaven, that the kingdom of God is here as well. And and he would show me goodness while I was alive on this land. And right now, our life verse is Romans 1513. And this was actually comes from my husband, but I adopted it as well, because it just so powerful. Again, it’s a lot about hope. 1513 May, the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in Him, so that you may overflow with hope, by the power of the Holy Spirit? And that just carries me through the tough stuff.

9:00
That’s awesome. And did you say there’s a third one as well?

9:04
Oh, yeah. What was that? No, well, there’s two right now.

9:09
Um, no, I love both of those. That’s just fantastic. And it seems so both of them seem so forward looking, you know, even in the waiting even in the midst of waiting until until God comes through. Still having that hope having that forward. Vision, you know, that God is going to come through?

9:32
Yeah, I think we get lost and when we’re so in the muck in the mire, and you know, caught in it, we we have a hard time seeing forward, all we can see is the problems we’re in at the moment and it’s hard to look ahead, and I think that’s so important.

9:50
That’s amazing. Well, and I wonder if this is associated with talking about the difficult season in your marriage because I imagine You have learned that through, you know, the trials and the difficulties. So could you share a little bit about that that season,

10:07
that season happened, we were about 15 years into our marriage. So we weren’t young. It wasn’t a young marriage. But we reached a kind of a boiling point, I’ve mentioned that there was a lot of business travel, and we just didn’t have the tools to stay connected. Our marriage was founded on respect and communication, we had only I’ll backtrack here, We’d only been married a week or two, maybe in my husband, we were in the car driving somewhere. And my husband looked at me and said, You know, I want our marriage to be based on a verse he said, I can’t remember what the verse is, but it’s all about mutual respect and mutual communication. And I’m like, Hey, I am on board with that, you know, let’s, that’s perfect. So we we went home, and we found out that the verse was Ephesians, 521. And that was my third verse. Now I’m remembering, submit to each other out of reverence for Christ. And that that’s been our anchor through all of our seasons, but the bad season was a result of, you know, this disconnect. And he had needs that I didn’t understand. And I had needs that he didn’t understand. You know, I did not realize that sexual intimacy. Yeah. And we didn’t understand that it came to a boiling point when I discovered his strip club visits. When, when, yeah, he was off on business travel. The same week, I also found out that one of our sons was acting out, and in ways that could hurt his health and his brain. So, um, that was a lot in one week. Wow. That hit me. And it really we our marriage had been struggling and I’ve been praying for, you know, please, God help me know what to do that kind of thing. But once I was totally broken, yeah. And then I was willing to just say, whatever, you’ve got it all. I’m just gonna sit here. And you’ve got to bring me the resources. God, I don’t know where to turn. And he did. He did bring the resources. You know, I have a godly, godly husband. And he. And some people can say, well, how can a godly husband go to a strip club? Well, he had needs, he had things are still human. And yes, it’s flesh. And it’s wrong, and it’s a sin. But I wasn’t addressing those needs. So this class came to us. And it’s called dynamic marriage. And through family dynamics dotnet. It’s an eight week class, but it changed our life. It gave us tools, and it gave us understanding of each other. It was the best thing we’ve ever done. And since then, we became facilitators, so that we can pass along this hope to others. So it’s been a you know, that was 15 years ago, we’ve been married 29 years now. So it’s still growing. And that’s the beauty of it. It showed us that we could evolve. I think people get stuck in the thought of I’m never going to change, you know, this is the way I am. No, you can evolve, you give it to God and he’ll change. Hmm.

13:29
Yeah, that’s incredible. And I mean, if you don’t mind, I’ll, I’d love to ask questions about the, about the story. So, so how when you happen upon this, I mean, what was kind of the status quo beforehand that in terms of intimacy, or how you were thinking about it, what was your point,

13:49
um, it was a, it was a big conflict. I didn’t feel valued. And so because I did not feel valued, who wants to make love when they don’t feel valued, when they don’t feel like there’s a connection, and yet, his way of showing me value and his way of being emotional with me was through sexual intimacy. And that’s not what, that’s what I didn’t understand. And he didn’t understand that I needed conversation to feel connected. So he just wanted to meet me in the bedroom, and I just wanted to meet him over a cup of coffee and it was, you know, not working.

14:29
Yes, I think that’s a huge, huge point that is not doesn’t always compute with wives, especially since our society has just Well, I mean, in the wrong context, sex is, you know, such a power thing, but in the wrong context, but in the right context. It’s a beautiful, unifying experience that’s meant to encourage your whole marriage. So I’m interested when you were, you know, caught in This understanding of sex. How did you move past that when you found this?

15:05
So how did I change my thought process?

15:08
Yep, that’s the good news.

15:12
It was really a heart change. It wasn’t in my head, it was more in my heart that I just, God put compassion in my heart for my husband, even though you know, my first reaction was, how can you do this to me, I’ve been raising his children and, you know, alone through the week and all this stuff and not feeling supported. How could he do this to me, but God put compassion that, you know, he’s working really hard, and maybe he doesn’t enjoy being gone all the time. And he would enjoy some comfort when he comes home. And no, I don’t blame myself for his pornography use. I want to make that understood. I do not blame myself. But I do know that there are things as you know, we are called to be intimate in marriage. That’s, that’s holiness, and marriage is sexual intimacy. Yeah. And the society. Society just really skews that, and then that Satan, he’s taking something that is so powerful, and so bonding, and so thrilling, and just skewing it and using those things against us. Yeah. So how and so, you know, it was it was a, not an overnight click, my brain didn’t automatically embrace sex. And that’s where oyster bed seven came from, it was a journey. And that was an encompasses all of my life, not just my physical self. It encompasses spiritual and emotional and everything, exercise, all parts of my life, are part of my libido.

16:54
Hmm, yeah. Yeah, that’s just I love what you, you share that God had to put the compassion in your heart for your husband. Because I can imagine the way you felt happening upon this, and many women feel when they discover their husband’s addiction to pornography. You know, it, it’s it’s affecting a lot of marriages, I mean, billions of marriages. In fact, even in the church, it’s about 50% is struggling currently, that doesn’t even include the people that struggled beforehand. So it’s huge. So why is out there, you’re not alone, if you found this, this difficulty, and it’s something that’s affected my life as a young woman myself in pornography, other family members, extended family, man, I mean, it’s just a huge thing.

17:48
And that 50% I’ve read is of who’s addicted. It’s not just might be casual viewers. So I think there’s a whole you know, I think it’s 50% are addicted. And what about 70% of viewed or something’s addicted? That’s huge.

18:06
That is yes, yes. So, I mean, how were you able to understand your husband, as you know, not this monster who is doing all these terrible things to you? I mean, how are you able to understand him as a person that is that needs your forgiveness? I mean, I think and the reason I say that is because I’ve got kind of some backstory in a very close marriage that I know. Basically, that was the tipping point when she found out the pornography addiction to cut the cord. You know, that was it. And I just wonder how can wives understand their husband with grace and be able to move past that?

18:46
Well, I didn’t come into this marriage unblemished. I had had premarital sex and college and my husband actually was more pure. So I came to the marriage already, you know, blemished sexually. So when this happened, and yet I’ve been loyal to him all these years, but I had to think, you know, he forgave me for all of that. My husband had, he knew, he forgave me. And now it was my turn. And, you know, forgive as you’ve been forgiven. That’s, I had to extend that and even if you’re not a wife, who has had sexual sin, there’s other things I’m sure your husband is forgiving you for. But I completely understand your rage. I completely understand the betrayal. And don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t forgiving him that very first day. I was raged I wanted to punch him in the stomach and I am not a physical person. So I you know, I understand there’s rage and this was all a process but you have to not put your foot down in the very Beginning of, I’m never gonna forgive you, you can’t put your foot down in rage, you have to let yourself process through the rage. It’s very healthy. But don’t stay there. That’s not healthy. Yeah.

20:13
what would what practical steps did you take to process through?

20:18
I did a lot of Bible study and prayer. Unfortunately, what I wish I would have had was a friend. I had no Christian woman who had ever admitted to dealing with this kind of issue in our marriage. And of course, there had to be many. And so I, once we found the class that helped. But the class still didn’t address pornography specifically, but it addressed all of our other issues. So we were able to heal with other help with the pornography, but I wished I’d had a discerning Christian woman friend to just commiserate with.

20:59
Yeah, yeah. Yep. And I love that you shared earlier that you don’t blame yourself for the addiction. Well, and could you even expound on that?

21:11
The addiction, yeah, yes. Our men are still eat for all their bravado. They are still a little boys inside this, like, we were little girls, you know, and when they should have been developing the ability to have intimate relationships. Some of them were exposed to pornography very early. So when, when Daddy yells at them, or tells them they’re stupid or worse, and they happen upon pornography, what a fun release, you know, for, for 10 minutes, they can forget that dad just called him an idiot. And when they should have been developing the intimate relationships with other people, the the, you know, just the seduction of the pornography overrides the ability to connect with other people. So it were a lot of addicts, it starts very young. And as I learned that, and knowing my husband’s history, and knowing that there were some pain, you know, I, I understood that, that it’s not my fault. It’s not his, it’s his choice. It’s his choice. But childhood, you know, what happens in childhood is not your fault. You have to heal through it. And there’s a great book, it’s called surfing for God. It was the healing book for our pornography battle.

22:45
Wow. God says all sin is the same. It’s not, you know, murdering is just as bad as, as lying as judging as we’re all all of our riches are filthy rags to God. So he’s got to forgive all of us. And so just the way he forgives us is the way that we should extend grace to our husbands.

23:04
And it wasn’t, but it was not an overnight thing. You know, it’s been years. And it took, um, you know, I would say it took four years, I was part of a study for PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, because there’s, they found that people who are sexually abused or who have had pornography revelations or, or infidelity, Revelations can sometimes have post traumatic stress. So it can take years to really be able to think about it and not get all worked up again, people who had had porn revelations and the correlation to post traumatic stress disorder. And the study, when it concluded, showed that it could take up to three or four years for the thought of the porn revelation to not affect you emotionally. And that’s what happened. For me, it took about four years before I could think back on that day, and not have my heart race, and not get ticked off again. But it did it happened. It was a gradual decrease, but it did happen. And now I can think about that day. A whole lot different. Wow.

24:19
That is really amazing insight. So just to clarify for the listeners. So this was a study about or for wives who have who have learned of their husbands either addiction or sexual infidelity or something along those lines. And then it was a study about how they basically were able to move past this this trauma. Yes. Yeah. And I’ll have that linked up on the show notes too. So and, and can I ask, I mean, that just seems amazing to me. Because when I think of marriages that have had infidelity, and this kind of thing, they never wait. I mean it almost never I mean It’s so interesting that it took almost four years for you to kind of move out of that that trauma phase because generally women don’t wait four years to try to see if they can, you know, forgive and forget.

25:16
Well, I think the key to it was my husband was working really hard. He was working very hard to develop emotional intelligence, to understanding his own emotions. He was working very hard to meet my needs. And it was a snowball effect, the more he tried to meet my needs, the more I tried to meet his, I mean, it was, but if you have, and that’s where all of my wait for the Lord scripture plays in, you have to wait for the Lord. It’s not going to be overnight. Yeah.

25:55
So I’d also like share that, you know, it was before we were married, but I basically really, really hurt my husband in, in areas that are similar to what we’re talking about. And it’s interesting to listen to the PTSD thing to understand how long it may take for him to totally get over and totally forgive and totally have grace with. So if you’re on the other end of the spectrum, and you, you know, have been the person that has hurt your husband or wife so deeply, to realize also that even though God is forgiving you and you’ve totally repented, and you’ve come clean, and you’ve been open and you are serving and all this, it may take four years for them to fully be able to just physically not have those PTSD symptoms. And so you mentioned heart racing, were there other you said, and having that rage and having that kind of fear at what were some other things that that really

27:01
worked? That that those physical things are really what come to my mind first. And, you know, it also would trigger distrust all over again. So I would have to intentionally, you know, work towards the trust and to put doubt away, and, but of course, that happened because my husband did what he needed to do to build my trust, too. So, you know, if he hadn’t been working so hard, I don’t know. What, I’m not going to think about what would have happened. Right, but we but we my husband, and I totally understand how divorce happens.

27:44
Wow, well, that’s incredible. What? What, yeah, what made you stick it out in the midst?

27:51
Well, we had three, you know, sons that really needed us. But I think it just goes back to our covenant. You know, we took those vows seriously. And I truly loved him. Oh, I still love him. I’m passionate about him. I mean, even through all that, and that’s why it hurts so bad, because I loved him so much. Yeah, I loved him. And I wanted to make it work. We both did. We’re both miserable. But we both loved each other. And we took our covenant very seriously. I read to another study, and I can’t even point you to it. But it said that if a bad marriage can wait five years, it will change.

28:30
Wow. That’s great. I mean, you know, and sometimes it can even take less.

28:41
Sometimes it takes more to but yeah. But it absolutely can change can change. Yes.

28:49
I’m interested, Bonnie, how were you able to kind of move to this place of being willing to be open about the struggle?

28:57
Oh, it was the marriage class, once we got through it and decided we want to help people in this way. The marriage class, you really need to be as transparent as possible with this marriage class. And as we came to a place of more healing, where it was a more distant memory, we’ve become more and more transparent. And my husband is totally on board with these conversations. Because if it can help someone that’s hurting, and bring them into a better place than to God, once they’re in a better place, they’ll be able to better serve the kingdom of God. Because when you’re miserable, you’re older, you’re wounded on the battlefield and, and you’re not, you can only take care of yourself. You can’t help take care of other people. So that’s why we want to help marriages heal.

29:47
I love that. I just think that’s so true when you’re in a difficult place in your marriage. I mean, it’s all encompassing encompasses all of your thoughts, your stress, your emotions, your worry, your fear. I mean everything And you absolutely don’t have any room to be helping and serving the kingdom of God. Exactly. So if a wife is scared to talk about it to open up an intimate struggle, either from her end or his end, I mean, what kind of advice would you give her?

30:18
So she’s afraid to talk to someone. There are a lot of blogs now, through Christian marriage bloggers Association. There are a lot of women and men, you know, writing, sharing their stories, but you can also submit questions and comments to those authors, you know, to the blogs. And that’s a way to do it anonymously. If you’re hesitant, you know, to talk in real life to someone. But you could also find a Christian counselor who will keep everything you say, totally confidential. But don’t struggle alone. And it’s no reflection on you. If you are having a sexual issue in your marriage, whether it is your problem, or his don’t struggle alone. There’s, you know, there are people out there who have been there and want to help you.

31:11
That’s awesome. I love that encouragement, don’t struggle alone. Exactly. Wow, Bonnie, that was just awesome. I’m just so grateful for her story. And her just willingness to share it like it is because this is something that so many couples struggle with. And they struggle in silence. And so I’m just grateful that Bonnie is brave enough to open the doors, bring the light in, let people know so they can be encouraged. And kudos to her husband. That’s all for this that he says, so many people are struggling. So why are we going to hide our own struggle and not help people? So it’s just beautiful. Bonnie goes into some really great things in the next episode. That’s coming out on Thursday. So I really want you to hear specifically how to increase your libido. I mean, to really take this thing seriously, if sex is one of the important keys in marriage, then why are we not putting on our warrior helmets and, and doing real work for our marriage? Ultimately, like Bonnie said, For the kingdom of God, no joke, ladies, let’s let’s really dig into this. Just to transition, I got a review that I loved. And I’m going to share reviews every now and then because I want you to know that this is encouraging people and you’re not alone in this journey. So this is the title is from a guy he gave it five stars. And he said bravo to all the committed women who take the time to listen to this podcast. from a guy’s perspective. belah Rose has our number. She knows what makes us tick. Great approach. Great content, can’t say enough good about this podcast. So I just want to thank you, sir, for, for leaving the review. And just the encouragement that really, it really helps me to know that I’m on the right track. And I’m yeah, getting getting things done. So if you haven’t listened to Episode 14, that’s the one that I really go into oral sex and what I think it can mean for your marriage. I’m guessing that’s what this guy is talking about. Because it’s really something that can make a difference in your marriage. So I want to encourage you listen to that episode. But the other thing is I’ve got a webinar, where I’m going to go into some specifics about oral sex, but it’s just for the ladies. So sorry, guys, you’re not invited. But that’s going to be happening just next week on Tuesday at eight o’clock Eastern Standard Time. So I’d love for you to be there. It’s live, it’s not recorded. If you’re in the future, I’ll probably do another one of these webinars depending on the feedback. So if you still go to delight your marriage.com/fourteen you’ll see an updated link and more information there. And I just like to mention, it’s totally anonymous, I just want to make that very clear. It’s just for you. Of course you can be there live you can type in your real name if you want. We can acknowledge each other that way on the webinar, but you don’t have to you could use a you know a pseudonym like I use so anyway, I just want to encourage the wives that it just like this, this guy said, you know, if you want to serve your husband in the best way to be the best wife you can, why would you not want to understand the nitty gritty and really feel free and confident in the bedroom in the right context, which is marriage and witches with wives just like Titus two four says, women need to teach other women how to love her husbands. Go to delight your marriage.com/fourteen All right, I love you. I’m praying for you. And please remember that you might be called to give more than your fair share. It might be for season it might be for lifetime but Remember Psalm 2713 I remain confident of this. I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord, be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Alright, I love you and we’ll talk soon. God bless you.

35:21
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

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Ginny Hannan, joyfromgrace.com, has been married for 11 years and have 2 adopted daughters from Colombia with special needs. She shares that she fell into a deep depression for almost two years following the adoption. She bravely shares how her new children and change of identity launched her into a bout of significant challenge that caused her to consider ending her life. But, God made some huge changes in her heart and life. Her story will challenge and inspire you.

Quote:

God’s timing is perfect.

You’ll Discover:

• After the adoption of her girls Ginny went through significant depression because of the significant changes in her life.
• Ginny shares bravely about the times she even day dreamed of her own death at times.
• She shares how her identity was completely reshaped after having her children.
• How she cried when submitting her resignation letter to her full-time job.
• How she came out of the depression slowly and little by little.
• That reaching out for help is vital to your health and getting better.

Resources Mentioned:

• The book of Psalms

Tweetables:

Through it all, I learned that I could trust him. Even when I was at my lowest, he fought for us.

I think the depression made me appreciate him even more than ever before.

If you can see your difficulty as a season, remember seasons aren’t forever.

If you stand with him and encourage him during the hard seasons it can only be a wonderful benefit to your marriage.

When you fill your mind with truth, then it overcomes all the lies that the sickness of depression put in your head.

Transcript

0:00
delight your marriage episode 12.

0:03
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, the show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah. Rose.

0:20
Hi there and welcome. This is belah rose. And thank you for being here at the delight your marriage podcast if this is your first time listening, welcome. And this is really a place where we get to chat with wives and intimacy experts on what it takes to have a wonderful and fulfilling marriage. Today, I have wonderful Ginni Hannon from joy from grace.com, who is so kind to share a struggle that she had in her marriage, that she actually went through a serious bout of depression. And, honestly, I can so relate to her story. And I know that so many have had such struggles, and she gives some real honest feelings and hurts and pains and regrets, but also the grace that God gave and how wonderful he was throughout and, and how she even slowly, little by little, came to a very different place in her mental health and also in her marriage. Honestly, Jenny’s so brave and kind to share this story, and I think you’re really gonna benefit from it. So without further ado, here’s Jenny. Right Welcome back, delight your marriage listeners. I’m belah rose. And I’m just so excited to be with Jenny Hannon from joy from grace. With me today, Jenny. Hi, and welcome.

1:56
Hi, thank you so much for having me on today.

2:00
Oh, I’m really excited, I think this is gonna be really great. Would you go ahead and introduce yourself to the listeners and say hi, and tell us a little bit about your family in your day to day life, if you would.

2:13
My husband and I have been married for almost 11 years now. And he’s always quick to say, but we’ve been together for 14, because he always loves to mention those other three years in there. We adopted our two sweet little girls from Colombia about four years ago, their sisters, and they have definitely made life exciting. Both have special needs. So I would just say that life is not ever boring in our home. And they love to talk all the time. So we just we have a blast. So yeah, I used to be a teacher for almost 10 years. And then when the girls came along, we decided that it would probably be best for me to be a stay at home mom, which is quite a transition from a full time job to another completely different full time job. So

3:07
that is so true. Yes, I completely agree. Well, can you tell us a little bit also about your husband and your personalities and kind of how your dynamic of your relationship looks like?

3:21
Yeah, we we are definitely planners. And so we always like to be in control of our lives. Although parenting, anyone who’s a parent would know that that’s pretty much impossible. But, you know, we both we both are, I don’t know, we’re just, we really love each other, but we also love loving up on others together. And that’s something that I really enjoy about us is that we are able to, to be givers and to give to others not just monetarily, but through our, our lives together. And yeah, my husband is is very analytical. And I’m pretty much the opposite, which is a very funny mix. Although we always say that we would be very good at a business together if we were ever sort of business because I would be the dreamer and he would say okay, this is how we would actually do it. So it’s you know, we I think we make a really good mix, but we are definitely opposites in many ways.

4:20
I love that I love that that sounds a lot like me and my husband are much we basically I like to say we complement each other so my gap shrinks and I love that

4:32
Exactly, exactly. Thank goodness I have him because my house would be a disaster. He keeps me in line with all the you know he’s a little bit more on the OCD side of animal a little bit more free flowing type of side so he keeps me in check.

4:46
Yes, that’s awesome. I completely agree with you go ahead and share with us I know you’ve got a scripture or a quote that has meant a lot to you over the years.

4:58
Instantly. The quote Oh, God’s timing is perfect came to my mind, we actually have that hanging on our kitchen door. And that actually has hung on every kitchen door that we’ve had in our relationship. And it really has come true with us that it’s been a, it’s been difficult to learn that we’ve had a lot of different times where we’ve kind of had to relearn that his timing is perfect, because we like to plan everything. So of course, when we got married, we had this five year plan, we would have kids within five years. And we would do this by this time and that time, and God said, Let me just, you know, back up here a little bit, and laugh at your plans, and then here are going to be my plans. And so we hung that up as a reminder all the time, because whenever we tried to over plan or try to control life, we always have to look at that sign and say, You know what, we are not in control he is and things will happen when they happen. And during our adoption, that really became perfect for us because we had to wait over three years for our girls. And there were times where I was like, God, why are we not getting our girls yet? Our kids? Yeah, and I want to be a mom now. And why can’t I be that, and then I’d look at the sign. And I’d realize his timing is perfect. And the children that he has in mind for us will be there at the perfect time. And that was so true.

6:32
That’s amazing. And it’s hard to give up your own will and your own plans into Gods because it’s it’s just this kind of scary thing that we don’t know. It’s God trustworthy with our plans and with what we want and and then play. Yeah. And then the question is, you know, what it was a say about our heart, and what does that what God wants to kind of transform in us. So that we do recognize, in retrospect, wow, God really has been in control. And he is working all things together for our good, even when it doesn’t feel like it.

7:06
Exactly. And giving up control is so important. And I know that that has been a huge lesson we’ve had to learn. And it’s getting easier, because the more that we try to control the more he says, No, I’m in control. And each time we have to relearn that, but I think that it’s now starting to sink in with us. And we’re a lot more relaxed about that and saying, Okay, well, we know what’s gonna happen with us too. And it’s gonna happen the way he wants it to happen. So, yeah,

7:36
I love that. And I’m really excited to dive a little more into your stories. And I’d like to ask you about a difficult season. I mean, there’s a lot of listeners that are going through some challenges in their marriages. And it sounds like you all have really been through some amazing experiences that people can learn from. So I’d love for you to dive in on a challenge that you all have done. Definitely,

7:59
this, the one that I’m thinking of is right after we adopted the girls, I went through about two years of what I call post adoption, depression, and giving up my job bringing on two girls with more severe special needs than we were expecting. And all the intricacies of dealing with their trauma also, I think brought out something in me that I wasn’t expecting. And so I fell into a really deep depression for almost two years. And that was a really hard time for us and our marriage. Because Tim, he took our paths so seriously as he should. And he remembered through sickness and health. And I was very sick in my mind at that time. So he, he sat there, and he had a fight for our marriage. And there were times where it was just him fighting for it. And I was giving up. And that was really hard on him. And it was really taxing on him to have to constantly be the one who was fighting. We were bickering with each other a lot. It was really hard to be a team and a united front with the girls. And you know, our intimacy was affected. And it was really difficult. And there were times where I really questioned whether I was the right person for him. And for my girls. And I would I actually was so severely depressed that I often dreamed of taking my own life and saying what this is better off for all of them. And he had to fight through every one of those episodes and say no, no, you are the man that you’re supposed to be and you are my wife and I love you the way you are. And thank goodness he did that. Yeah, it was it was a very tough season. And, you know, now that I look back, it was a growing season however, it was definitely a struggle.

9:55
Yeah, wow. I’m interested how old were the girls when When when you adopted them?

10:03
My oldest is she was two and a half. And my youngest was one. She just turned one while we were down there in Colombia.

10:11
Oh, so you went to Colombia to cook to get the the girls or did you live there for a while, or

10:17
we actually lived there for about five weeks in a hotel room with two little ones. In a in a area where we were the only ones who spoke English, no one spoke English at all. So in our Spanish was, you know, toddler Spanish, so, but we squeaked by and God was good. It was definitely not easy. But oh my goodness, I wouldn’t trade it for the world. Because we have these two wonderful little girls that now I know, now that I’m out of that depressive state, I totally get that they were supposed to be ours.

10:52
Wow, wow. And in the midst of this time, that was so so so hard for you. I’m I mean, I know there’s so many listeners, and I’ve gone through similar bouts of depression myself. But I know there’s so many that struggle in this way, specifically, and being a mom and taking care of kids, regardless of the age, but then also being that you had special needs. In addition to that a one and a one year old and a two and a half year old. That’s the age as you said. I mean, those are not easy ages. No. Especially getting used to different culture, I’m sure it was a huge transition for them. The whole the whole, next I’m interested, like day to day, what did it look like, with you being home with them? You know, when when people say they were depressed during this time? You I mean, when you’re a mom, you still have a lot to do. You can’t just, you know, hide under the covers like you want to I mean, what was that like for you?

11:48
I was in survival mode, I was doing whatever I had to do to get through the day, my husband oftentimes had to come home early from work. Because I would get into such a state that I’d say I can’t do this today. I just can’t. And he would have to come home early from work to take care of them because I just wasn’t able to. I was very impatient. I didn’t, I didn’t enjoy being a mom. And that saddens me because there are there were so many good things going on that I didn’t recognize at the time. And so many people around us that I didn’t, I could have asked for support from and I didn’t. And I just tried to do it all on my own. And there were days where they would just be playing in the room and I would just sit there staring at the wall, praying the day would go over quickly. And watching the clock for my husband to get home because he couldn’t get home soon enough. And that that was just It breaks my heart that that was how they came to what kind of mom they came home to for two years. But I know now that that was a lot of out of my control type of stuff. And I was sick. But but you know now, now I look back and I’m like, Oh, I just wish I did enjoy that time a little more. And I couldn’t feel at the time, which was really sad.

13:07
Yeah, no, I mean, I actually have little ones now. And I definitely know that not only temptation of myself, just get checking out, you know, and to hear that, as a mom, I think we can all learn from you and to think about how precious these moments are. Because, excuse me, they really don’t last for very long. Yeah, I love I love that you call it post post adoption, depression, because I think it’s very, very similar to postpartum depression, in that I was actually went through postpartum depression for my first son, at least for six months, if not longer. And it was a very, very challenging time, because you are also in the midst of reforming your identity about what you do in your day. And can you go through that a little bit also from being, you know, professional woman that, you know, worked for 10 years and then now has kids what was that like for you?

14:11
My identity before becoming a mom was as a teacher, I was a sixth grade English teacher and I loved it. I absolutely enjoyed it. That was my identity. If someone asked me, Who are you, I’m a teacher. And for the longest time, my husband knew that I wanted to be a career mom. And I was going I was planning on actually when we first adopted our children, I was planning on going back to work. And I think that was one of the hardest things was when we got the girls. I realized I don’t think I’m going to be able to go back to work. And there are way too many therapies we need to go through. I have way too many meetings now because of this and I can’t go back to work and that was really hard, because my identity had to completely change from being this worker. This teacher that loved her kids and Lena and just what that was where I was I was great curriculum and was really good at it to becoming a mom as toddlers, and I was a middle school English teacher going to little kids, that was not my story. And so I’m watching all these other moms doing it well, like they were posting on Facebook, oh, we just did this project today. And here’s what we did during our day. And I’m like, I got out of bed and got them dressed. And that’s about as far as we got. And so I was like, I don’t know how cute this. So I went from something that I was really good at to something that I really struggled at. And I don’t like to struggle. And so that was hard for me. I remember when I had to give my resignation letter to my school district to say I was officially resigning, and I cried for like a week over that. Because I felt like I was giving up a part of myself. That was who I was. And I was turning into something that I was not good at. And I was like, I don’t think that I can do this. Oh, yeah.

16:12
Yeah, I mean, it’s just such. It’s just amazing that you’re being so open with this story, because it’s something that women, so many go through and, and we’ve got this culture on Facebook, and Pinterest, and all these things where it’s like, no one, I mean, looking at a medium like that you would think no one struggles with being a mom, my goodness, they’re

16:36
kids, they’re perfect.

16:38
They’re always cute. They’re always smiling. Wonderful projects, just like you said, I love that. Well, what was the process of getting out of this stage?

16:50
Really, for me, it really had to do with letting go of my pride, and letting myself accept help. And so I saw a counselor, I was I accepted more help from my husband’s and I also went more to the Bible. During that time, I was really struggling with my relationship with the Lord. So I just kind of pushed him aside and said, Fine, if you’re not going to be here for me, I’m not going to do anything with you. And then one day, I picked up my Bible, and I started to read. And each day I read a little more, and I started to pay more attention to church instead of phasing out. And as my relationship regrew. And with him, I felt like I didn’t have to rely on myself anymore, and that he could be my strengths. And that was huge. That was really huge. And so I think, for me, it was accepting help. And also growing in my relationship with the Lord. And it wasn’t overnight. But I did recognize when I was starting to exit the depression, all of a sudden, my girls I was I was having a better relationship with my girls. They were even recognizing it and coming to me more and, and wanting to play with me more and like they can I can recognize within them the change that was happening in me. So that was really nice. Wow.

18:21
I love that in the midst of this really dark time, you were able to recognize and even seek out help. Because I feel important. That’s not Yeah, that’s not an automatic thing. You know, and it sounds like it took a process to get to there. But something like therapy is is is a huge, huge support that you know that anyone who’s struggling with anything similar, really should think about doing some some either professional therapy or maybe working with your church. I’m thinking about getting a counselor that way. But I’ve definitely done it different times in my life. And it’s been a huge help every single time.

19:03
It really does. I feel like a lot of people see it as a weakness to go to a therapist. But in reality, I almost think all of us should we see a therapist at some point, you know, just to talk things through with somebody. But, but I think that that’s so important. I think for me, I was also worried what if, what if she hears what I think about about my children was what she contacts Cys and hasn’t taken, you know, my children away. And I had a fear there of being open with somebody because what if what if they saw that I was unfit to be a mom, and they took my kids away? And that was a huge fear for me, but I really wish I hadn’t let that fear kick over me because instead of getting that when I started opening up to people, instead I receive love and I got support. So I could be the mom that my kids needed me to be. And if I hadn’t opened up the Navy still be in that we’d still be in that state. But thank goodness, I got the help I needed. And I really would encourage anyone listening, if you are in this depression, please get help. If you can’t, it’s not going to hurt you. It’s, it can only help you. So that’s that’s what I would encourage people to do.

20:20
That’s awesome. And I just completely agree because it’s really something that people don’t talk about. And it’s, it’s hurt that that really affects your family. And I’m so grateful that you also shared about how it was affecting your marriage. Because yes, somehow we sometimes think those are separated, but they’re very connected. And so how did your marriage kind of change as, as you started to open up and receive help?

20:49
I think my husband appreciated the fact that I was receiving his health more, I was starting to recognize what he was doing for me and appreciating that more. And I think that actually encouraged him to keep going, you know, and our relationship just grew closer. I think it’s strange, but I think for at all, I learned that I could trust him. Because even when I was at my lowest, he fought for us. He didn’t leave me he didn’t turn to anything else, or anyone else. He stayed with me. And for me, that was huge, because I’ve always had trust issues. And he pretty much proved to me that I’m gonna stick with this no matter what happens. And so for us, I felt like we grew closer in that aspect emotionally, intimately, I was finally able to receive his love in that way more. And as a couple, we were finally since we’re coming out of that we finally looked at it and said, Okay, how can God use us as a couple to help other couples who are going through that? And so we’re able to help others through through that as well. So it’s been a really neat transition for us. I feel like we’re closer than we’ve ever been. Even though we were in such a valley. Now we’re, I feel like an amount up, which is so neat. You know, that

22:11
brings us to the next question I wanted to ask you about is just a wonderful time in your marriage, what what is kind of come out of some of this hardship.

22:20
But definitely the trust aspect. We also now are able to talk to others about our marriage. So we are actually doing a year ministering together through something called a great Valentine’s Day gifts. And so we’re encouraging others to give on Valentine’s Day to others. And then we’re also doing a marriage panel later this next month. So we’re actually able to do things and serve together now because I’m able to. And I think for my husband, he’s always dreamed of serving together. And so now we’re finally able to do that. It’s beautiful. And there’s nothing like serving with her husband. Like we each have our own ministries, I have my choice from Grayson deliberate women ministry, but he and he has his ministry for men who are addicted to pornography. But now for us both we have a ministry together to be able to speak about our marriage and to encourage others to give, which is so neat for us. And yeah, I would say that that has come out and just yeah, just I feel like we’re more in love than ever. Does that make any sense? I feel like when you’re doing things together, you just kind of grow in your love. And I get like giggles when I see him sometimes. And I’m just, I don’t know, it’s funny, I feel like we’re still in our first year of marriage.

23:40
Saw off my hand and he opens doors for me. And again, things I did not appreciate when there was in the middle of all that depression. Or even before that, I don’t think I think now that depression actually made me appreciate him even more than it did before I even had depression. So I don’t know, I think I just everyday I just I want to get to him. And just, he wants to get to me, it’s just neat. I feel so blessed.

24:04
I love that so much. And it’s a beautiful picture of, of a marriage that’s gone through something that’s really challenging. And now it’s come to the other side of it. And I love that your husband was the kind of the, he really needed to carry you during these times. And I think I think a lot of times through marriage if flip flops, you know, sometimes one spouse really needs a lot more support than the other and then a couple years later it flip flops, you know, and sometimes that’s emotional support, sometimes that financial support, sometimes it’s, you know, one is in school, the other needs to you know, make sure the mortgage gets paid. It flips in many many ways. But I’ve noticed in my marriage as well that the thing I don’t want people to think that if you’re in a season right now where you’re carrying a lot of the weight, let’s say it is emotional support, and that’s that’s hard. That is a hard thing to be the straight and narrow for your spouse. But I mean, the thing is, it’s not a forever thing, it really could not be a forever thing, this might not be the way your husband is, it might be the way he is right now. And you need to kind of pray him through this season.

25:15
And that’s exactly what it is, it’s a season. And if you can see it as that it doesn’t feel it’s hopeless. And just know that whatever the season is, if you stay there, and you stick with them, and encourage them, it can only bring out wonderful things in your marriage.

25:36
I love that. I love that. So I want to ask you, just kind of a follow up. And I just so appreciate Jenny, how how open you’ve been. And because this is this is just a very important topic. And I wonder, in terms of practical ways that someone’s struggling with depression, let’s say, what are some maybe habits that she can implement today and tomorrow in this week, that’s going to help her to kind of move into a better space.

26:11
Number one, free reach out for help. I think people are always worried that people are going to think that they’re less of a person because they reached out for help. But that is huge. And you need that support. And people will be there for you. And if someone isn’t there for you, then they really weren’t probably the greatest friend to begin with. So reach out to your church, if you don’t feel comfortable saying anything to a friend, that your church should be the next step is still reach out for help. The next thing I would say is get in the Word of God. And I know that might sound redundant, but it’s so true. Because when you fill your mind with truth, then it overcomes all the lies, that the sickness of depression, put in your head. You know, I had lies, and you’re not a good mom, you don’t deserve to be their mother, your husband deserves a better wife. Those are lies. And when I started filling my mind with the truth of God, then those truths started to overcome the lies. So that’s so important is to get into the Word of God, whether it’s through personal study. And if he can join a Bible study, that’s even better. And so those are two major things I would definitely do. Because you need support, and you need God. And without those two things, it’s so difficult to come out of depression.

27:36
I love that. I love that. I completely agree. And and I guess my last follow up question would be, Jenny, are there times where you feel maybe a temptation to go back into a zone that you have in the past? And I just wonder how do you kind of combat those?

27:53
Oh, yeah, I mean, I’ve definitely I mean, I haven’t been completely 100% Depression free over the last few years. But I have, but I’ve had moments where I’ve gone back there. And now because of the first experience I can recognize when I’m going there. And I instantly tell my husband, I say, Honey, I feel down. And I’ve been down for days. So can you please pray for me? And can we pray together? And you know, and I’ll reach out to some of my friends that I know from previous experience have been encouragers for me, and they Oh, my goodness, they took me all the time. To the point where I’m like, Come on, I’m fine. But But I appreciate that, because they want to make sure that I don’t go back to where I was before. And they love me enough to to be annoying to me at the time when I need when I need them to be. So

28:44
yes, I love that. I love that so much. And that that relationship, it sounds like those relationships. And those really great support systems really started by you reaching out and being vulnerable and letting people know what’s really going on. I love that.

28:57
Well, when I told people that I had depression, they were surprised because I put on a really good face. I would go to church and I would smile. And I would ask my Facebook, you would never know from my Facebook page that things were wrong. Because, you know, because when I first started saying things were wrong, people would actually criticize me. So I stopped. And I said, Fine, I’m going to criticize, but I’m going to post all about how wonderful life is. And so nobody knew. And I remember when I came out and said I have depression and here’s what’s going on. That was a really big surprise to a lot of people. But thank goodness, they didn’t just say I’m surprised. Are you going to be okay? And then just backed off? They said no. Okay, now that we know that you have this, we’re going to sit here and support you. And some of them didn’t know how to support me. So I had to tell them. Here’s what I need. Can you please take my kids when I’m having a day where I just can’t do this? And they did. You know and they were there and sometimes we had meals made for us because I just couldn’t do it. But you know, they were awesome throughout the whole stage.

30:07
So good, that is so good. And I want to ask, if someone doesn’t know how to start reading the Bible, what would you suggest either first steps or resources they could go to?

30:19
Oh, that’s a really good question. And sometimes just reading through the book of Psalms, especially if you’ve never read it, there are so many different emotional high peaks at highs and lows in Psalms that I think anyone can relate to those songs. And so that’s a really great place to start. Any Bible study for church, he usually that’s a great way to get started, because he can be around other women, you can kind of guide you through that. There’s also some online Bible studies as well, that you can go on through online if you don’t have a specific church that you’re associated with at the time. So those are some really good resources to go to. But yeah, I love the book of Psalms, especially for me with my life history. I feel like there’s always a psalm that can relate to no matter where I am. So

31:13
I love that I love that. And it’s also easy to find it’s pretty much in the middle of the

31:18
the biggest book in the Bible. So there you

31:22
know, I completely agree, I think that that’s a great one. And even sometimes if let’s say you feel like you’re you’re very, you’re just way too stressed to sit down and read a full chapter, something, even one verse, you know, just tidy His Word in your heart so that later when, when these thoughts might come, you can just pull out that that one verse that really can speak truth to yourself, I think,

31:49
in memorization of that, like you said, hiding in your heart is memorizing it. And taking that just take a few minutes to do that. Or if he can’t sit down for 10 minutes and memorize it and carry it throughout the day with you. But then on a note card and carry it and just read it whenever you’re feeling stressed. And eventually it will just sink in and just become a part of you. I love that. I love that. And how do you

32:12
when you think about your marriage and reading the Word of God, do you Did you see a difference in when you when you’re in the word and when you’re not? And how that relates to your marriage? Oh,

32:22
my patience level is so much better. What’s the word of God? I think my family can probably tell when I’m reading God’s word. And when I’m not. I’m a lot more snippy. But when I start my day, with, you know, my journal, and my word is the word of God. And then I feel like having God’s word in my heart makes it harder to be angry or to yell. And I’m a much better mom. And then also, there’s so many verses that I can relate to my marriage that I you know, I read and I’m like, Oh, I I need to be more patient with my husband today. Or I need to watch my phone today because I can be very, you know, I can I can. I’m pretty bold, and I am not afraid to speak my mind. But there are times when that’s not appropriate. And God’s word reminds me of that. So

33:08
yes, I love that. That’s so true. Wow, how good is that? When you fill your mind with truth, then it overcomes all the lives that the sickness of depression put in your head. Such a great quote from Jenny that you just heard. But yes, so agree. And Ginny goes on in the next part of this interview, to share what the three things that kept her marriage together even in those dark, dark times. And how how she even gives a tip of on intimacy. That’s what I was trying to say. But anyway, the other thing I’m going to share on the next part of this interview is a little bit more about my story on the next show, so don’t miss it on Thursday coming out. Thank you so much for being here. I hope that you’re encouraged and inspired to fill your mind with truth today. Just pick a verse. I’ll pick one for you right now that you can just hide in your heart today. Here’s one. This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it. Take a moment to just be glad that this is the day that God made for you to enjoy. God bless you, loving you and praying for you. Bye.

34:28
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

46:38
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Orgasm Difficulties Revealed

Listen to & subscribe with iTunes!

In this episode, I interview Carrie Gordon of TheIntimateCouple.com. She grew up without any education about sex. She didn’t know what an orgasm was until she was married. She shares how she moved past these struggles and how to teach your kids the right way about sex. Maybe she wouldn’t have had difficulty with orgasm had she been taught the right way.

Scripture/Quote:

Proverbs 19:11 A person’s wisdom yields patience; it is to one’s glory to overlook an offense.

A happy marriage is a union of two good forgivers. -Ruth Bell Graham

 marriage advice

You’ll Discover:

• The challenge Carrie had in the beginning of her marriage.
• That sex was never something she was taught as a child.
• How her marriage started out unfulfilling for her in the bedroom.
• How Carrie began to understand that sex was a need for her husband.
• How things changed in her marital intimacy into a beautiful intimacy now.
• How to talk to your kids about sex using words like “special”, “beautiful”, “God’s design”

talk to kids about sex

Resources Mentioned:

• 
  His Needs, Her Needs; Building an Affair-Proof Marriage
• 
• Intended For Pleasure; Sex Technique and Sexual Fulfillment in Christian Marriage
• Covenant Eyes internet filter. I’d so appreciate it if you click here for my (affiliate) link to Covenant Eyes.
• Valiant Man – course on sexual integrity for young men: http://www.lifekeysonline.org/valiant-man

Tweetables:

Use words like “special”, “God’s design” & “beautiful” to talk to your kids about sex

The fact that we have a solid marriage has been such an example for our kids

When your relationship is good, you can take on the world.

When I think of my marriage of 32 years, I feel cherished.

Don’t forget, sex is love making with your best friend and lover.

Transcript

0:00
delight your marriage episode 10.

0:03
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, the show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah rose.

0:21
Hey, hey, how are you? I wish I could hear you respond. But unfortunately, I’m just looking into a microphone right now. But this is belah rose, and I’m so glad that you’re here. Today, I have got a really great interview. It’s the first half of Carrie from the intimate couples calm. And she really shares about how difficult it was for her to achieve orgasm for the first time. I mean, that is such a common story, my goodness, isn’t that my that’s my story. That’s so many women story. In fact, there’s a large percentage of women that even now, Christian or non Christian, do not orgasm. And so Carrie gives some really great tips not only from her own life of how she was able to work through that, but also she shares about how she’s able to present sex in such a positive light for our own kids. Because if you think about it, a lot of our hangups with sex, honestly started from our parents. So, you know, obviously parents, and I’m sure they’re well meaning and they just didn’t want you to explore before you were, you know, allowed to or whatever. But the issue is, we need to stop the cycle. And we need to turn it around. And so Carrie gives some really great insights about that. But also just how to get through in your mind in order to enjoy making love to the extent that you can literally achieve this wonderful physical experience. I also just want to mention that Carrie is so open and vulnerable with her heart and her experiences because she wants to help other women that have gone through similar experiences. So listen in open your own heart to her and see what God might teach you through her story.

2:15
All right, well, welcome back. delight your marriage listeners. I’m so glad you’ve joined us today. You’re in for a treat here. I have Carrie with the intimate couple. And she is going to tell us a little bit about her marriage and her marital story. So welcome, Carrie, how are you doing?

2:36
I’m doing great. And thanks, belah for inviting me to be part of this. I’m actually looking forward to it.

2:41
No, I’m so glad. And I’d love for you Carrie to go ahead and introduce yourself and your family and a little bit about your day to day life.

2:50
Sure. Okay. So I’m very happily married to my husband, Jim. We’ve been married for over 32 years. And we have a large family. We actually have nine children. And our your oldest and youngest are the girls and we have seven boys in between. So it’s quite a you know, summer for the baseball team. Or that’s a lot of people tell us. It just the oldest daughter is 30. And our youngest daughter is 15. And so it’s like every other year, we have another baby. So that’s, we feel like that’s our claim to fame, you know, a large family because that’s pretty unique these days. But I happen to be the oldest of eight children. And my husband is the youngest of seven. So we were both like grew up with big families. So it didn’t seem strange to us. But we are so blessed, and five of our sons are married. And we now have eight grandchildren, the oldest is five, and then they both younger. Last year was quite a busy year for us because in 2014, we had two of our sons get married. And we have three new grandchildren. So that was like a stellar year for us. But our family, our family actually now totals 24 you count all the laws and the grandchildren. So we are so blessed. I currently work part time as an office manager as a church and my husband is a pastor of the church. The church is probably about 700 people and we are super busy with that. And I I really do like working behind the scenes I like do the ministration stuff, which is really, actually I think our family benefited because of the fact that I liked making charts and lists. That’s my thing. And so our family fridge always had a chore chart on it. So our kids leave our kids and we try to empty dishwasher. It’s not my turn, you know they had the chart they can look at but it didn’t mean that the work always got done. It helps and with a large family and a lot of boys didn’t have to do that. But so I do enjoy ministry. My husband, Jim, he is currently the lead pastor at the church. He was a, like our church as a Christian school as well, running like 33 or four years. And Jim was the principal of the school for 20 years. So he’s very much like a teacher, by motivation, but also very much a leader. And so he has now been the lead pastor for 13 years. And I really do enjoy serving alongside him. And it’s just with a large family, and with both of us being involved in the church quite heavily, we are really, really busy. And then, inside, we actually, as you mentioned, the intimate couple, it was out in 2007. So do the math, I guess it’s about like, over seven years ago, we started a website purely as a hobby. It was grew out of a passion that was for, for couples, especially, to provide resources, just writing lots of articles. It wasn’t just targeting sexual intimacy, but we wanted that to be part of it. But it was just for intimacy in marriage. And so that’s kind of what we do our day off to try to work on that a bit. It’s fun for us.

6:23
Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, it definitely. Sounds like you’re incredibly busy. Carrie, and it sounds like you as your administrative gifting has really allowed allowed your family to even thrive in the midst of how much business I mean. Yes. You know, I’m in New York City. So there’s the the normal families, you know, 1.5 kids, probably and yeah, even to manage that is a struggle, but then a website, church and an additional eight children.

6:56
That is quite a bit in some childcare, babysitting and for our grandkids, and Jim and I are looking forward, we are leaving next week, we’re going to go to the two of us. We’re going to go to Cancun, Mexico for a little vacation. That’s gonna be fun.

7:12
That is wonderful. Just the two of you. Wow. Yeah. Would you share with us as we’re getting started with the inspiration? Would you share with us a scripture or quote that has meant a lot to you over the years or even recently? You are?

7:26
Okay, so I’ve got a scripture is from Proverbs 19, verse 11. That is something that we have tried to apply in our marriage. And it says a man’s wisdom gives him patience. It is to His glory to overlook and offense. And right align with that spell Graham, who said, a happy marriage is a union of two good forgivers. And it’s tied together, because overlooking sense is often tied to forgiveness. And I wouldn’t say that our marriage has had really serious challenges of eating forgiveness. You know, there hasn’t been unfaithfulness or you know, any, some of those things would be very difficult. But in day to day living, I’m sure you know about that. It’s easy for a husband and wife to hurt one another in a smaller way or to offend. And, you know, it could be that I’m feeling sort of slighted or ignored, or, you know, Jim’s not really paying attention to me right now the way I would want them to, I don’t feel he was really doing what he should. Well, I it’s not been difficult for for me to choose, just think the best about him. And instead of, you know, holding out a grudge against them. It just overlooked that because I mean, you can either be having grudges upon graduate upon grudges easily in a marriage. And it’s just to choose the things that best and you may be I’ve spoken something kind of unloving Lee tone or nagging is easily done. But Jim, he’s been so gracious and he might recognize it Carrie tired or I just need to give her a helping hand. She’s she’s feeling pressure right now. But you know, just try to be understanding and overlook the offense. And it really is, in a very many ways, just forgiving one another. And I’m not saying you never talk about things and address issues that you need to someone thought understanding the other like, if that’s good, you don’t it’s not like putting things under the carpet. But it’s I think that patience and forgiveness tied together. So I’ve been very I don’t know, I wouldn’t even say it’s an earmark of our relationship. But if I think about successful with 32 years I really cannot think of something that really irks me about gym, or an LGBT. Like, I feel cherished. That’s what when I think of what my husband is like, I feel that he cherishes me. I don’t think about oh, yeah, he annoys me about this, or, or I, you know, 15 years ago, she said that, like, I can’t remember those. That is so I feel like given given us such a solid marriage. Yeah, so that’s a bit of inspirational bear sleeve.

10:37
I love it. It’s just so true, you know, and it’s just such golden advice to really overlook and offense. You know, in the midst of 32 years, however, I’m sure there’s been ups and downs, and all arounds and struggles and they’re in there. And I’d love for you to tell us a little bit about us a season or a struggle that your marriage went through and how you overcame that.

11:02
For, for me, the area of sexual intimacy has not been really easy. I’m on typical two, I think, a lot of women, and that I find it challenging to come to orgasm myself. It’s not that I’m not in the like, there are women who are not experienced before we get women who will write into our website and want advice about that. And and we don’t like we’re not sexual therapists or anything like that. But when I looked back, I realized that as I grew up, the culture of our family was, we didn’t talk about that. It wasn’t like it was taboo. And, and maybe there are other women that can relate to that. But sometimes it’s almost a danger, I think in in a Christian family that that will happen. And I think it’s damaging if you don’t like there’s a right way to talk about it. So me being the oldest of eight children. Like when I when I got married, I did not know what an orgasm was. I didn’t know that. That’s something that people experienced. And I knew that how babies were conceived. And that was about it. No conversations with my mom and no girlfriend talks or anything. And I and we didn’t like know, when we didn’t even have pre marriage classes that would talk about that. So that was maybe got me off on to not a very great cert. I also threw up where modesty was, like three personally was it was not in such a healthy way. But seem to be tied in with embarrassment, and, you know, modesty, there’s a good kind of modesty, but the the kind words gone too far that. So I think even our wedding night was a huge overcoming. I mean, I don’t have any regrets. And but I think that it wasn’t really like God’s design that it had to be so difficult for me. And so the there’s, it’s easy for us even now I can I can easily tie sex with negative kind of feelings. Or meanwhile, it’s lovemaking with my best friend and my lover. And so I’ve learned I think it was obviously we’ve got lots of children, we’ve had sex it’s not that it didn’t work at all, but it wasn’t fulfilling. And so but I’m, I’m so glad that like, Jim, he really was gracious and patience. And and then we, I can’t remember when it might have been, it’s somewhere between five and 10 years of marriage. We read the book, his interview. And it sort of opened my eyes to the fact that sexual intimacy work could be a need, and actually for my husband to do and so even then to to receive understand the that it’s important, it’s not just something that lesser or almost like negative. It’s, I mean, I knew it in my head, but to really, really change my attitudes took quite a bit of time. So things that helped me were just that my husband I were really open to talking to each other and It was, Oh, it wasn’t in like all the Perfect, great big problems, but it was what? We just want this area to be better for. So what, what do we like, and so things like eating some book. So remember the very first book, you’re well in probably 10 years married, I think called in, intended for pleasure.

15:25
And that was the, I had never even cared to look at a book about sex or anything, like growing up was like, you don’t look at stuff like that. But it was. So I still remember I can, where I thought I thought on the book table at this conference, and I swear by this, if we’re just starting to talk, we try to learn a bit and start trying things. And I know, for me, like, initiating sex has been a really important thing for me to do. And it’s like, our sex is so great. And like God has certainly helped us along the way. And I know my husband, she feels really, really happy. How we’ve moved in that area. So it but it was, it was almost like, I wouldn’t say it was so difficult for me, it’s probably more difficult for my husband, because he didn’t want to put pressure on me. But I wasn’t understanding that this is like a gift for a married couple to enjoy the blood, we have a very healthy sexual relationship. Now. That’s all good.

16:44
That is just so valuable to share. And I just really appreciate it because there are so many of our listeners, as well as myself that really have had very similar stories. And I’m, I’m interested in how well first off when you talked about, there’s a right way of talking about sex and in the family that you grew up in, it was really talked about or not talked about at all. And so as a mother of so many, and you know, there are definitely mothers that are listening, how would you suggest they talk about sex with their kids?

17:20
Well, in our family, we’ve had it but I get to talk to our daughters. And we tied it in with the girls to not be surprised when they have their period for the first time. But kind of tying it with that we we happen to pick up a resource somewhere that was kind of easy. Follow up book is like a children’s level. I we made it that it was like a special time where it was private, no embarrassment. And if I remember, it was like really special for both of my daughters now. 30. And my 15 year old. Were probably like around eight 910 In that age. But I think the two conversations were different, because times have changed. With my daughter’s 15 I remember talking to her about things like you know, inappropriate touching, and but, like, aren’t wanting her to know that, you know, there’s evil out there too, but like not in a fearful way. But still, whenever there’s anything uncomfortable. And so I’m really glad that both of my daughters have been open with me, and they feel comfortable. It’s almost like you’re, you’re setting the ground instead of other people starting to put influence and thoughts and before the girls even thought or knew anything like this was something that you don’t know, but let me tell you about it. And it’s it’s really special and really taught using words like special and God’s design and how beautiful are but there it I know it took several hours and maybe I think we had a because we couldn’t do it all in one session. He said a little code word was Shall we go and have some hot chocolate and then if I said that to my daughter she knew there was like yeah, let’s go and have to keep reading that book or we keep to the talk and but it was like good to talk about any any kind of issues that are related to sex or negative things too that we talked about but really emphasizing buys gift.

19:54
I love that Carrie because it just gives just such a good framework for Your daughter’s to then learn about sex and grew in that it’s this is the proper context that it’s special that it’s God’s design in marriage. I mean, it’s just wonderful that, as you said, you were able to set the framework versus maybe Google setting it or their friends are, you know, crude jokes at school or something like that.

20:23
For my, for my husband, he would take out the boys and sometimes do a couple of together and so I was never there to watch. But I know that it is such like the the, because right from there, we’re talking about even things like talking about masturbation, or pornography. Like before. I know it’s so healthy, not saying that, that might sound I’ve never had issues of any kind, but they are totally open with your father. Um, even to me somewhat, that it’s just like, I know, it’s interesting. want it all to be in such a negative context. There’s the negative aspects, but let’s talk about it with positive. It makes a difference.

21:19
Yeah, I love that so much. And I’m interested even actually, I have two sons. So okay, I’m very interested in thinking about what it is like for sons, because like you, I grew up very sheltered. And then after reading books, like his needs her needs and intended for pleasure, and those kinds, the whole understanding of, Wow, this, this is a wonderful aspect of my husband that I just had no idea about that. It’s a really godly, wonderful thing. So I’m interested in how how, um, a little bit more about that if you could about how the boys kind of processed sex as young men, because the interest is, I mean, my little boys are, at video, I’ve got a six month old, or sorry, six week old and a year and a half old. And it’s really, but their interest in their extra part is immediate, you know? How do you what happens when they get older? And?

22:39
Yeah, well, it’s keeping, keeping communication and like, there is like, especially now with internet and everything, there’s so much temptation out there. So we have these covenant eyes as a filter for accountability on all of our family computers and, or, and personal computers, and I phones or whatever, but, and we’re able to do that not as, like, oh, here, we’re gonna slap some rules on here is No, it’s because we want you to be such a godly man, and to be the, you know, really prepared for marriage for that you don’t have any kind of regret. And at the church, we’ve actually offered courses to women, I think, come out of Australia called the valiant man. And it’s so much it teaches about how the brain work, and, you know, things that cause arousal, whatever. And, but in a safe setting, like theater, just a bunch of young men or a bunch of married men, and they there is such, like, an openness that happens. And so all of our friends have gone through that. And some are now even facilitating the course. But it’s, it’s quite easy in that it’s just pop in a DVD and listen to the teachers that are doing the training. But like, just kind of challenging our son to not just be, you know, that we throw up and see. Not healthy, but to really be leaders that God wants them to be. So there’s no, of course, not like, I don’t want to get the picture. But you know, our family is all perfect and we never had any kind of sin or anything like that. But it’s constantly communication going on, and it’s going in the right direction. And I was really glad add that as a VA. I’ll be around 910 years old. Her father was having conversation with them. And yeah, so I feel like we’re really reaching some good fruit from that, because they’re becoming young men and fathers themselves. Which is, I know that when I think about the, our marriage and what, what kind of positive things it’s produced. The fact that we’ve got a solid marriage is been such an example for our kids. And they, what I love is when our marriage kids will tell there are married kids story will tell their friends who maybe are struggling in the area of relationship. My opinion, so website, you should see some articles. They’re there, they’re not embarrassed at all, by our website, they, you know, they’re telling other people about it, but it could be so different. And I’m, I think just the openness we’ve had as, as our kids are growing up, and know that we’re for private about, you know, Gemini for our relationship, we’re not like, doing anything that belongs in privacy, it happens privately. But as far as conversation at appropriate times, or before any of our kids got married, or they knew that they could ask us questions, and it’s so such a blessing to be able to invest in your children that way. Yeah. Awesome.

26:46
That’s incredible. Carrie, and I’d love to move on to. Sure. A little bit more about what maybe habits or guidance kind of practical guidance, could you give a wife struggling in the same area of intimacy?

27:01
Yeah. I, I think education with your husband like, and sometimes it’s hard to just even, like, start talking like, what, what should we talk about what sex and about, you know, feeling fulfilled? And then that can be hard to just know, what what do we start with? So I think finding a book, finding a website, reading an article together, and then start saying, Okay, what do we take away from this? So what, what do you think still, in this article, like, it’s even worse, that’s just a springboard to conversation. But if, and I think also, too, when you’re talking with your husband, don’t think of this as a problem or an issue, but as though it’s your own problem. Or, that’s his problem. This is something that you both are going to say that you’re on the same side of it. Like if it’s sort of like out in front of you, that whatever aspect of like, for me, it was just trying to get over the negative connotations that seemed to be in my head. It was oh, sex, it’s kind of dirty, or, you know, not really fulfilling, like, all of that, I’m sure. Was preventing me from having orgasms, I mean, pretty hard to when you’ve got negative feelings, it’s going to impact how your body responds. So I, because I think like for Jim and I, we just talk about it, we didn’t find any little trick of like, you know, press this or, you know, joke that it wasn’t like, I mean, there’s some of that happening. But it wasn’t as though this was a tote, this is a clue. Nope, I could sell that now for $99. And I’ll tell you what that clue is. It’s not like that at all. It’s for it to Keishon. And for a lot of my thoughts, just changing my thinking, because it’s amazing how that impacts so for, for Gemini to slightly, both understood that I was wanting to had to learn it mostly, is the importance of sex in the marriage. And so when you start to understand that, if you prioritize it, and it’s seems like it will happen more often, and things start to work a bit better. As we’re practicing Perfect kind of thing to what’s not perfect yet? It’s much, much better. And yeah, there’s not like just one little clue but really be the thought garden, not not having them the lies or the untruth influence in improper way, what happens in our bedroom?

30:26
Yeah, I think that’s really great to hear Carrie. And I just want to sum up some of the things that you just talked about, you said that, start by reading together to make that a springboard and conversation so that that can open up communication, I think that’s a great tip for women. So if it’s not already something that you can openly talk about, maybe you can pull up an article or, you know, open a chapter that you say, well, let’s just, let’s go through this a little bit. And that might give some language to some of your feelings even. And then you mentioned, don’t think of it as your problem or his problem. It’s something that you’re working on together, and you’re working together to get it even better. I love that, because it really can seem like, well, he’s not doing what I really need him to. And it can become tension, when instead, I wonder if you would say that it’s it’s a process that God wants us to kind of get through and do together and grow in intimacy in those areas?

31:33
Oh, absolutely. I and I also have recognized in our marriage, that anything that might be like a conflict, whether it’s, like, I’m not talking about, you know, just a disagreement that was like, we’ve got over it in two minutes. But suddenly, it was a little bit tougher, more challenging to work through. It doesn’t have like, it’s not as though Well, let’s avoid that now, because that’s going to make our marriage worse, no, working the process, working through that in a healthy way. Can actually we found make you closer afterwards. Like, you learned so much about each other, and you learn to understand and learn to listen, and it doesn’t have to be like you even if there’s a struggle in in sexual intimacy for a couple. It’s don’t don’t think, Oh, well, we’re doomed. It’s not like that at all. It’s like, no, you’ve got your work cut out for you to communicate. But you’re going to come out on the other side, even better for having had to work through that.

32:46
I love that. It’s definitely been something important in my marriage as well, where it’s just, you’ve got to realize that each struggle, it’s actually probably the struggle has been there the whole time. And it’s actually been kind of separating the two of you, until you actually can kind of wrestle through it together. And I don’t mean wrestle in an arguing way. I just mean, like, this is something you both need to get your hands dirty and have some vulnerability, and it’s gonna be messy, and it’s not gonna feel good. You’re probably gonna cry. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Prepare for all those things. But yeah, I mean, really, that’s what intimacy is about is being open and baring your soul and your your personhood with this other person. I just love that. And, and just to also mention that you said, get over the negative connotations of sex, I think that’s a very important process that every especially Christian woman that maybe was raised in the church or someone that’s come out of, a lot of, you know, sexual sin like myself, I also had to get over the negative connotations, because I reckon we had to recognize the sin and recognize that, okay, that’s under the blood. That’s what Jesus was able to forgive me of, and then move into this as a holy, wonderful thing with my husband. That’s that’s ordained by God. So I think, on both sides of that the connotations, really a process a wife needs to go through. And then the last thing you mentioned was the importance of sex and marriage and to prioritize that.

34:22
Yeah, yeah, for sure. To summarize that really well for us.

34:28
Thanks, Carrie. Now we’re stopping the interview here because the second half is coming out on Thursday and I don’t want you to miss it because Carrie talks about the three reasons for her marital success and she also shares a tip about intimacy that honestly I didn’t think of much at first, but it has been a great support to our intimacy so I don’t want you to miss that because it is really good stuff. The other thing I don’t want you to miss is I’m doing a drawing in a week for the delight your husband course it helps a lot go through, or get past all of her reservations about sex intimacy, and the different flavors of sex. And specifically, I go into great detail and the actual physical responses for Pena Lingus. So if you don’t know what Pena Lingus is, I encourage you to go to delight your husband.com and find out exactly what that is because I talk about positions and techniques, and really, in depth look at what a woman needs to get past in her own mind, in order to get to a place of being able to really delight her husband. Now for the next week, if you review the podcast on iTunes, then you will be entered into a drawing to get the delight your husband course for free, the way to do it is review the podcast, then take a screenshot on either your phone or your computer, and then tweet it at delight marriage. Once again, you review the podcast on iTunes, take a screenshot and then tweet that screenshot at delight marriage. Now, the reason it’s important to take the screenshot is because iTunes for whatever reason, doesn’t post a review right away. So I want to make sure I see it right away, and that you are entered into the drawing. So just take this as your inspiration, if you think you’re gonna forget, why not do it right now, that would be amazing. And then you can tweet it to me and I will get it. Now if you don’t have Twitter, feel free, just email it at belah at delight your marriage.com. If you’re not totally sure how to do each of these steps to enter to win, just go to delight your marriage.com. And there’s a link on the right hand side right on that homepage that says enter to win. And I will have all of the details there for you very easy step by step. Thank you so much for taking the time to write a review. For me, it really encourages me. And it also makes it so that other people can see the podcast. So thank you so much for taking the time. And if you meant to review and you just haven’t yet, why not take now as the inspiration to go ahead and do it and get entered to win an amazing resource for your marriage. Thank you again. God bless you and I’m praying for you and your marriage and your walk with God. I’ll talk to you soon.

37:22
Bye. Thanks for listening. Stop by delight your marriage.com to check out all the show notes as well as many more resources and articles. Until next time, live with love, wisdom impassion