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There can only be 1 answer to this question:

Yes, or No. 

Well, who do you go to to answer questions like this?

Do you have a pastor?

A friend?

A mentor?

A favorite author?

A researcher?

A scientist?

A porn counselor?

An SA therapist?

A previous user?

Your own experience?

Your own intuition? 

Who has the authority in your life to answer this question?

Ahem… “the great Belah Rose?”

Just so we’re clear, when I said, “Let there be light”… it stayed dark.

When your pastor said it… when your favorite author/researcher/friend/counselor/author/confidante said it… probably the same.

Maybe there was a window already open, so God’s light actually allowed it to be light… but ultimately, they don’t have power or authority anywhere, ANYWHERE close to God.

God. 

But is He the biggest authority to you?

Does what He says matter to you the MOST?

I invite you to pause. Ponder. 

Are His words MOST important?

To you?

Let’s say, your answer is yes.

But then, how do you know what God says… especially about an exclusively 21st-century issue, i.e. porn?

Well, actually it isn’t a 21st-century issue.

And God speaks about it. Many times.

And He clearly answers this question.

I don’t know if you want to hear it, but He does speak to it.

Before we get there.

In truth…

Apathy is easier.

Skepticism is easier.

Laziness is easier. 

But just because you don’t care (apathy),

or believe (skepticism),

or want to (laziness),

…swim away from the impending waterfall, 

doesn’t mean it won’t kill you when you inevitably get to it.

Do you care what the Bible says? Do you believe what the Bible says? Do you want to discover what the Bible says?

I had a conversation via email with a dear friend about a year ago. I would love for you to read it to learn why I think the Bible should be pursued, is trustworthy, and can be utterly wonderful for you: delightyourmarriage.com/bible

So, to answer this question…

“The great Belah Rose” fears God too much to not tell you: 

yes, it is a salvation issue.

“Anyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart…

better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.”

Jesus says it is. We’re talking about hell. We’re talking about lust. We’re talking about salvation.

(In Matthew 5:28)

I hope one day this will be true of me…

“I never shrank back from telling you what you needed to hear… either publicly or in your homes [or in your earbuds].

I have had one message…

the necessity of repenting from sin

and turning to God,

and of having faith in our Lord Jesus.”

Acts 20:20-21

Belah

PS – Next steps:

Repent from your sin.

Turn to God [i.e. read your physical Bible to learn / discover / encounter who He actually is] and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

PPS – There IS hope AND help. Maybe we can help. Jesus most definitely can help! If you’d like to investigate whether or not we can help, we invite you to schedule a free, no obligation Clarity Call at delightyourmarriage.com/cc

Quote from a graduate of Masculinity Reclaimed:

Before MR: “My sex life was a mess before I found DYM. It’s really hard to find anyone that will talk to you about sex in a godly way. The world is full of lies, DYM pulls the truth out of the Bible and gives you exactly what you need to get on a healthy trajectory for your marriage and sex life!”

After MR: “I think my biggest celebration is just having the weight of discontentment lifted. It is so frustrating and depressing to be constantly dissatisfied with your sex life. It truly is like carrying around a huge weight. To finally be free of that and realize that I could be satisfied and happy without doing anything but changing my heart posture was amazing. I no longer feel like the victim of a bad marriage, but rather the recipient of a blessed marriage!”

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An episode for a struggling husband — or his wife. 

To give you hope. 

See, if you don’t know what is the root of a behavior, it’s very hard to “white knuckle” yourself out of the behavior. 

Therapist Sam Tielemans specializes in helping couples who have suffered through the pain of porn addiction. 

He gives the specific reasons he sees over and over again at his practice (in Las Vegas of all places!) what is at the root of the porn addiction. 

Why does he keep going back? 

Why is he overwhelmed by shame but can’t seem to stop?

And for the wife, how can she find healing in this?

Could she understand this addiction to see that the behavior is covering up the pain?

Should she have boundaries, and what should those be (we touch lightly on this — there’s a lot more depth we’ll go into in the ladies program — if you’re interested, go to delightyourmarriage.com/cc so we can support you)?

For the man listening, Jesus took your sin. If you accept his sacrifice — you are clean. Whiter than snow. As though it never happened. 

You can walk with that confidence.

We speak more about it — but if you only read this — I want you to know the truth. 

Jesus took your sin (yes, this is a bad sin). But HE — the God of the universe — died for it. 

Don’t keep the sin and pay the price of shame anymore — God came to die to pay the price FOR YOU. 

The gift you don’t deserve. 

That’s the good news. 

As a person who was addicted to porn for years, I know you can walk in victory, too. 

Blessings,

Belah

PS — The men’s training is coming up! All new videos and fresh training for you. I can’t wait! It all starts September 12, 2022 — sign up delightyourmarriage.com/menstraining

Ladies — if you want to witness your marriage transform — go to delightyourmarriage.com/cc and get on a Clarity Call to see how we can help you. 

PPS — Sign up before you forget! It’ll be gone before you realize it!

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SO much packed in here, but I tried to narrow it down so you have a helpful summary. We go deep in this episode, I really think it’ll help you.

Three points are made in this episode:

1 – Your feelings are God given and He wants to do something because of them.

2 – It is healthy and even Jesus-like to express your frustration emotions (without hurting anyone) and grieve through your sad emotions (tears are important).

3 – Regardless of your lot in life, it is your responsibility (not your family of origin, perhaps you didn’t have a good role model, maybe you were exposed to porn, or your wife doesn’t have wholehearted sex with you every other day…) to correctly follow God with your emotions. 

A lot of men learned to deal with frustration through masturbation and/or pornography. It was a very tactical way to get frustration out of their body. 

However, that stunted the opportunity to get frustration out in a healthy way, so that their brains could develop in the way God wanted it to — with empathy, gentleness, and kindness. 

So, they came into marriage assuming they’d be able to replace their “frustration valve” of pornography with their wife’s body. 

And surprise… they’re still frustrated. 

Because that’s not Jesus’ way. 

They may struggle now with anger, aggression, bitterness, resentment, being judgmental…

Sex addiction, still…

Alcoholism, video game addiction, binge-watching nonsense…

Longing for your past sexual escapades…

Daydreaming about divorce so you could get a new partner…

Other similar things are unhealthy ways of expelling the frustration.

(Things that, if it was printed on the front page of a newspaper, you would be ashamed of.) 

I want you to know — I am proud of you for even reading this email — and if you’re in any of these loops — I think God is proud of you for facing it! Bravo!

Listen, this is not just for men, but I hope this will help you process what’s going on with you a bit more.

Feelings are good. They’re God given. They tell us something. It may be that WE need to process, mature, slow-down, feel grief, etc. so we can feel empathy…

I want you to listen to this episode because I really think it could help you and help all of us pursue Jesus better. 

Love & Blessings,

Belah

PS – If you want to dedicate a short season of your life to DO this practically. To live this out for the betterment of your marriage & intimacy but also in service to your kids and ministry — I’d love to invite you to join a free Clarity Call.

On that call, a Clarity Advisor who is specifically trained in helping you draw out your emotions that may be pent up and looking like anger and self-righteousness instead of frustration and sadness.

People who chose not to move forward with our recommendation because of their current season of life or any other things have emailed afterwards to share how helpful it was for that empathetic and listening ear. 

We’d love to help, schedule a call: delightyourmarriage.com/cc

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. Your joining me belah Rose is I dive deep into the beauty, power and truths about intimacy. Learn not only the practicals, but the heart behind what making love is all about. delight

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your marriage.

0:23
Hello, hello, this is Bella, I’m so grateful that you are on this call with me. Whether you are nearby, or whether you’re far away, it’s just amazing that we get to spend time together, I’m, I’m so grateful. And I want you to just take a moment and feel the Father’s love for you. Deep breath in, deep breath out. The Lord of the Universe has his eye on you.

0:59
And he loves you. And he is eager to be proud of you. He loves you. He created you. He knows you. He’s got his eye on you. He smiles when he thinks of you. You are precious to him.

1:26
And I just feel like the fact that you listen to me the fact that you pursue these kinds of resources to grow and your love for others. And practically speaking in your love for your spouse how to do it. He’s so proud of you, this is huge. It’s so good that you want to love your spouse well, because you know what he loves your spouse to, and he wants your spouse to feel his love through you, through you. So I am just thrilled about this topic today, I think it’s gonna be really helpful for you, it’s been helpful for me. And before we dive in, I do want to let you know that our clarity of advisors are just, they’re wonderful. They’re wonderful humans, and they love serving you. And if you have listened for a while, or even if this is your first time, and you just are so excited to continue the journey, maybe the podcast has helped you. And maybe there are some gaps. Or maybe it’s helped you for a little while, but you’re just not sure how to maintain this kind of stuff. And, or, or maybe you like what you’re hearing and the philosophy seems right, but you’re just not sure how to practically do it. Or you’re like, gosh, there’s 300 Plus episodes here. And I don’t really know where to start or what really applies to me in my marriage. So that’s what are Clarity Calls do is they give you an understanding to zoom out an opportunity to zoom out, and then zoom back in of like, what is really happening. Where are the actual gaps in your understanding in the ways you approach your spouse, and then our clarity advisor can really dissect what’s going on and how to help you. Because by God’s grace, I would encourage you to listen to those transformation stories. They’re just, I mean, jaw dropping ly amazing. And our team gets to see way more than that on the inside. Because we definitely don’t share all of the transformation stories and plenty of people are not courageous enough necessarily to share on a video testimonial, their, you know, their intimate story. So it’s just so exciting when you get to listen and say, oh my gosh, that’s what God is doing. And yes, that is what God is doing. And we give Him all the glory for it. So today’s episode I am thrilled to share with you let’s go ahead and dive right on in.

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Today, we’re gonna be going over three skills that are super practical. Now I always want to give credit to the places that I kind of get my material. And these are very much taken from good inside. It’s Dr. Becky and she’s got a podcast. She’s got an online community and it came from her online resources. And it’s just fantastic. It’s parenting based work, but I want to kind of again utilize my experience and work with men and women in my work and see how we can adapt it for our purposes in marriage. So certainly there’s a lot of my own insights around these skills. But I want to give credit where credit’s due. And she’s got some really cool practical things in her resources, so check that out. Good insight is her as her podcast and her resources. All right, so first things first, this is all about having the skills you need to respond to situations with your spouse differently. So if you’ve listened to me for a while, you know, one of my big things is no arguments. You can have disagreements, but they do not need to escalate to arguments. In fact, when you get to a place of an argument where everyone’s emotions are high and elevated, you are really not able to do anything productive. In fact, for the most part, it just undermines your connection. And once you don’t have that connection, or it’s undermined for a day, an hour, a week, however long it lasts. I mean, you’re not, you’re not growing in connection, you’re either you’re you’re lessening that it’s just not a good idea. So what do you do in the midst, let me give you these three tools. Now, one thing Dr. Becky talks about, and I love her mindset here is that you have to practice it outside of the moment, you have to practice these skills before you need them. And that is so true. And I teach that as well, you have to get with these other like, for example, in my men’s program, I often pair people up and ask them to practice some of the skills we’re learning. So that on game day, when you’re with your spouse, you’re not trying to do this without having practiced you, you get it you know how to do this already. So first skill is, drumroll please. Deep breathing, deep breathing. Specifically, you want to do four counts of a deep breath in, do that with me out through your nose, that’s important through your nose, do some research in Google, if you’d like to understand the difference between nose breathing and mouth breathing, nose breathing is so much healthier for you. It’s It’s kind of crazy, when you dive into the research. It’s It’s amazing. So forever now, breathe through your nose. But from there, otherwise. Oh, and one thing for men, if you struggle with erectile dysfunction, and for women, it’s so healthy for you to hum, which is also through your nose. Because it releases nitric oxide in your body, which is exactly what those blue pills do. That men take often before, they need to have an erection if they struggle with that. So just a little insight. All right, that was a good teaching tangent, if you will. So breathe through your nose, four counts in,

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hold it and then breathe out eight counts. So the point is you want to breathe out twice as long as you breathe in. So instead of the mouth breathing very fast, that often happens when somebody’s feeling nervous or anxious or fearful or panicky. What you can do is change your physiology towards where you want to go. So you know that maybe you just got accused, you just got attacked, you know for for husbands, maybe you’re feeling disrespected. You feel like she’s calling you telling you that you’re not good enough, even though she’s using other words, but that’s the message you’re receiving. Okay, that’s a red flag, you know, you’re getting triggered the alarm bells are going off in your head. That is the signal that you need to take deep breaths, deep, slow breaths, because the natural thing is for your body to get in that alarm state. And when your body gets in that alarm state. What they call the lizard brain is the only thing that’s awake. So the front, I think it’s the the prefrontal cortex in front of your brain, which is the judging part of your brain, that judgment part of your brain kind of goes offline and then you’ve got your lizard brain which is basically the brain that you had when you’re a kid. That immature brain is the only thing that’s responding. And so then we do this, you know, sadly, absolute ridiculous things in these arguments because we don’t even have our judging brain online. So what you’ve got to do is do these deep, slow breaths, so that your brain stays awake your full brain, and you actually can access those judging moments. One thing to note, especially if you’re a husband, is that a lot of times women feel abandoned if you leave a situation in the midst of an argument. And that is very common, and something that I feel as well. When my husband doesn’t stick around for an important conversation to me, it makes sense that you would want to leave a situation and sometimes you may have to, and you may have to respectfully ask, honey, I can feel myself getting upset. And I don’t want to say anything that I would regret. So if you don’t mind us taking a break right now. But I know this is important, and I will circle back, you’ve got to say it calmly, you’ve got to say it with respect. And you’ve got to promise that you’re going to come back to it and you have to come back to it, which is the scary part, I know. But you do have to come back to it. So maybe both of you need a break, that’s totally fine. However, there are times that she just needs you to be there. And she needs you to breathe. And be there. The nice thing about breathing is that you’re still present, you can still pay attention. And you don’t have to, you’re not checking out your present, you can still listen, you can still understand you can still have that curious mindset. So focus on having your slow breath in, and double the pace of the breath out and do it through the nose. Because remember that anxiety, the frustration, all that is short breaths. But when you get to long breaths, that’s when you’re able to keep your whole brain at present. And then you’re able to slow your thoughts and stay in the curious mindset that’s super important. You want to be curious about how you

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how your spouse is feeling. Where are they coming from? Where is this coming from? What are they feeling underneath the words, because remember, words are just trying to communicate feelings. We’re just trying to communicate. And so maybe they’re coming out as imperfect accusations, and even meanness, but there’s some thing that’s underneath there, some woundedness, some, something that is going on underneath there. And so I invite you to deep breath, stay present. So that’s number one. Number two, is to have a mantra. And I love this mindset of what is some phrase I can cling on to in the midst of trying to hold her to hold together. And she has some ideas, I have some ideas I want to share. So one for her that I love, especially with parenting, but I think it also works with marriage as well, is I’m not broken. My child’s not broken. I’ve got this. So there’s a couple things there is we’ve got to understand, what are the fears you have in the midst of that what’s triggering what’s coming up for you? So a lot of times for men, it’s this disrespect piece that comes up. And so that might mean you’re feeling like, oh my gosh, why can’t I figure this out? Why can’t I do better? Why can I say something about you is coming up there. So in the moment, you know with your spouse, I’m not broken. She’s not broken. I’ve got this and that helps you to stay calm, stay calm, because if you’re not calm, and you allow her emotions to infect you, then it just escalates and escalates and escalates. She needs you to be the steady, calm leader that she can rely on. And then if you’re a husband, sorry if you’re a wife, it’s it’s a similar mindset. A lot of times you get flared up because the conversation is threatening. Your feelings of Safety, emotional safety, physical safety. Certainly if that’s an issue in your marriage, I mean that that’s even, that’s huge and terrible. But if it’s emotional safety as well, or just emotional safety, that that often just causes these huge alarm bells. And it’s hard to do anything but fight back with huge accusations and mean words and rhetorical knives. Right that leave both of you bloody and, you know, it’s really, you can never take back your words, right? And God willing, you’ll be able to forgive each other for those words, but there’s no, there’s no way you can take them back. So so be really careful with your words, dear wife, dear husband, even in the midst of frustrating feeling. So in the same way for a wife, this is exactly applicable to you this is what’s the mantra? I’m not broken, my husband’s not broken. I’ve got this. You know, that is what you can say to yourself in the midst. No, maybe that doesn’t make sense to you. Maybe there’s a totally different mantra you need. And here’s one that I think is really good, and biblical. Father, forgive him. He doesn’t know what he’s doing. Father, forgive him. He doesn’t know what he’s doing. Father, forgive him. He doesn’t know what he’s doing. Because in the midst of the accusations in the midst of the pain, if you can go to the place that Jesus went to, when he hung on the cross, when He was humiliated, tormented, when people laughed at him, and people literally tortured him. And he could respond by saying, forgive them, for they know not what they do. I mean, isn’t that the heart of Jesus, we want to be carrying around, isn’t that who we want to be to everyone in our lives, including our most important human assignment? Our own spouse?

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Yes, that is what we want. That’s what I want. And, you know, what I noticed sometimes is I get out of practice, I get out a practice of loving my spouse the way they receive love. And so we all do. You know, if I’m teaching this, I gotta practice. I mean, I think that means it’s a natural human thing to get out of practice. But if we can come again and again and again to the heart of Jesus. So So So in the midst of the argument, you’re breathing slow. You say forgive them for they don’t know what they’re doing. And then another empowering thought, after that, I’ve got this, I can do this. And remember, in Philippians, where it says, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, a lot of times, we’ll have that scripture on a bumper sticker or a baseball team’s shirt, or I don’t know, it just is interesting, because it, it doesn’t have the context of what that verse is talking about. But it’s actually talking about Paul being in prison, and saying, I know what the worst is. And I know what the best is because I’ve lived both. And I found out that even in the midst of the worst times, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. So let me go ahead and read to you the beginning of the chunk of verses that gives some context. So for Philippians 410, I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at length you have revived your concern for me, you were indeed concerned for me, but you had no opportunity. Not that I’m speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation, I am to be content, I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty, and hunger, abundance and need, I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. Yet it was kind of you to share my trouble. And you Philippians yourselves know that in the beginning of the gospel, when I left Macedonia, no church entered into partnership with me in giving and receiving except you only. Okay, and so, I would encourage you to, you know, read read the rest but I’ll I’ll Uh, add the very skip down a bit, verse 19, and my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches and glory in Christ Jesus. And so what I think is really great there, well, many, many great things is that no matter what is happening to him, how he is being tortured in prison. He’s saying God is going to supply. You know, God is giving him everything he needs, and God is going to supply their needs. And I think that that’s important for us to know in the moment, in the moment of frustration and the moment of anger, we can say, I can do this, I can do this, God forgive him for he doesn’t know what he’s doing, I can do this. So you need both of those. And I wanted to give you some scriptural backing because it scriptural God forgive her, she doesn’t know what he’s she’s doing. I can do this. So as your deep breathing, as you’re in the midst of completely getting blasted for something, you don’t deserve, God forgive her. She doesn’t know what she’s doing. I can do this, I can stay in this, I can have compassion, I can have grace for her. And again, these things have to be practiced outside of the moment. They have to be practiced outside the moment. And when I say practice, outside of the moment, some really good opportunities to practice this is during your day in random situations. So I don’t know if you’re like me, but if you are, sometimes my own email inbox, makes my heart move in the wrong way. Like even just a title, a caption that I don’t know, a subject line that I don’t, I don’t even know the contents of maybe it’s some promotional nonsense, and I’m ready to just have an accusing heart around. And in that moment, can I deep breathe, and I can say, God, forgive them, they don’t know what they’re doing. And say I can do this, which gives just a you know, even though it even though it’s tiny, it might be just some tiny whatever it may be. Or maybe you see sin in the world. And and that’s another opportunity instead of getting frustrated and angry and ruining your day. Can you say, God forgive them, they don’t know what they’re doing. I can do this. What if it’s traffic instead of getting angry and making, you know, seeing that your heart is getting frustrated instead of Father forgive them, they don’t know what they’re doing, I can do this. Right, I can do this, right, I can stay in this, I can still live in the fruits of the Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is in me, I can stay in the place of the middle of your will. I can walk like you Jesus, I can think like you Jesus, I can I spend my emotions like you, Jesus, I can do this. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me in the midst of where I am right now. That is the second tool. The third tool that Dr. Becky talks about is ngi. Find the M G I. I love this. What is MGIS she calls it the most generous interpretation. Look for the M G, I

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look for the most generous interpretation of what just happened. And again, you have to practice this outside of the situation. But we can use the example of traffic. Let’s say someone cuts you off and is, you know, driving ridiculously. And they certainly were not following the rules and you get angry. And it’s unsafe. And there’s so many reasons why you would get angry. But what’s the most generous interpretation? If we can look for that? Well, maybe their wife’s having a baby in the backseat and they need to get to the hospital. That’s often what my husband and I say when something crazy happens on the road. We’re like, Well, they probably are having a baby in the backseat. Let’s give them extra room. Get there, buddy, go, go go. And isn’t that a happier state of mind anyway? And then you’re not mad at every other car. And you’re not wasting your emotions on something just stupid. Do you mind me saying that? Because it just is why waste your emotions on something that is just why not just let it go. But in the moment, can we think of the most generous interpretation? Now the only way you can get to being able to do that in the moment is if you practice outside of the moment. So in the moment with your spouse, when you get to, oh, they must have misunderstood me, they must think that I’m XYZ, the only way you can get there is if you practice outside of it. So let’s say you guys had an argument, okay? We fail, we have to get back up, dust ourselves off. But then afterwards, you can reflect and say, can I find them? Ngi? Here? What’s the most generous interpretation of what just happened? What’s the most generous interpretation of what just happened? So let’s say, your wife is telling you how to load the dishwasher. And it just seems completely ridiculous to you why she would get so upset that you’re doing it, quote, the wrong way. All right, reflect later. What’s the most generous interpretation of that? Well, it might be that she wants to make sure that the dishes are clean, so that there’s no soap or suds or mess on it afterwards. And it doesn’t have to be washed again, and making sure the kids have have clean dishes to eat from. Like, I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. That’s so Okay, so now that you’ve got the most generous interpretation, that helps to give her grace, and it also helps to give maybe some insight where you could say, Honey, I, thanks for making sure you want this stuff clean. You know, is that is that the concern is the concern that you’re, you’re you’re worried about it not being cleaned for the kids, or, you know, and you give those, the benefit of the doubt another obvious way to say it, but when you give that kind of an explanation to it, then you’re not accusing or saying she doesn’t respect me, she thinks I’m stupid, those sorts of things, because that’s going to trigger you into ways that are not going to be kind ways of speaking to her and it’s going to cause your connection to, well, it’s going to cause you to disconnect emotionally, and then that, you know, can be a negative spiral to more and worse things. Or what if you interpret his telling you where to drive and being frustrated that you’re not going the fastest way? Of okay, what’s the most generous interpretation of his frustration there?

27:21
Maybe it’s that he doesn’t want to waste gas. And he is really thinking about the financial impact of how we drive and where we go, because he’s taking care of our family financially. Gosh, that’s a generous interpretation. Okay. All right, well, thank you, honey for, for making sure that we don’t waste gas and want to make sure that we’re going in the right ways. And even if you say something like that, and he has an opportunity to reflect and be, you know, like, yeah, I am a little more magnanimous than I than I thought I am. And then, you know, people live up to the identities you give them a lot of times, and if you have a good identity that you have given your spouse, they, they will live up to that and a greater degree. But that’s the work you have to do is find the MGI. So in all these different circumstances, slowly, you’re gonna get better at these skills, if you practice them again, outside of the situation. Because if we remember that our spouse is our highest human assignment, game day, is when we’re with our spouse, Game Day is not when we’re with the grocery store clerk, and we say, Have a good day. And we smile. And we might even say, God bless you, like, great, that’s awesome. But that is way less important, though, in the way you greet your spouse in the morning, than the way you listen to your spouse when they have hard feelings going on, than the way you are patient with them. When they say make a mistake, or they say something that is wrong, or they present themselves poorly in a public situation. How do you respond to them? That matters more than your your conversations with acquaintances, it matters more, because what you’re doing is growing your character and when you have a good character. It shows in every other way. I’m growing in these ways, too. So don’t worry, I’m right there alongside of you. We’re all growing. But how do we do this? So that our hearts look more like Jesus? Here are three skills to practice. You and I get to practice together when you’re getting frustrated, and you need to excuse yourself politely from a situation so you can breathe. And you can think about what’s the most generous interpretation here. And you can say to yourself, Father, forgive them. They don’t know what they’re doing. And I can do this. I can do all things through you. Right? When you say those things, when you practice those things, when you do them, when you’re by yourself, it’ll be easier to do them with your spouse, it’ll be easier to do them with your kids. Practice these things, you can do them, you can do them. And I suggest you write these things down. Deep breath in, slower breath out, that’s number one. Have that mantra, Father, forgive them, they don’t know what they’re doing. And I can do this through you. And number three, look for the most generous interpretation, find it, even if you have to do it after the situation, find it and do it inside. Even if you never mentioned that MGI to them, do it on the inside. Well, I am just thrilled again, that you are listening, that you are seeking to love your spouse, and everyone else in your life well and better. And let’s pray. Lord Jesus, I thank you that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, Lord, you strengthen us, we can do all things. We can be in prison and still say rejoice in the Lord always again, I say rejoice through you who strengthens us. That is true strength. That is true strength. God, I pray, Lord, that you want us to grow in our grace and our capacity to love others well, in our capacity to have true deep character. You want us to grow in these ways God give us grace to practice in traffic practice, when we get frustrated with the kids practice with our spouse, and how all of these things matter in eternity. And it’ll matter in other ways. In other seasons of our lives, that we need those muscles strong, because we’ll be tested, will be tempted, will be tried in bigger ways. And you want us to be mature you want us to grow. So thank you for your love, your kindness, your leadership, the way you grow us. And we just are so grateful.

32:19
In Jesus name, amen. Well, I hope you’re as excited about these tools as I am, I can’t wait to practice them. I hope that you will practice them. And we’d love to have you on the inside to journey this road with you to love your spouse well and witnessed God do incredible miracles in your life. So if you’re interested in that you want on the inside, go to delight your marriage.com/cc and sign up with a clarity call. Share your story, have a listening ear people have even reached back out to us months after they’ve had their clarity call. And they for whatever reason were not able to join the program or it wasn’t the right fit for any reason. And they’ve actually shared how important that clarity call was for their journey and how God has shifted things for them. So it’s awesome no matter what and we’d love to have you on. God bless you have a wonderful, wonderful day.

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I get so many emails from husbands. I want to send a message to their wives…the wife I used to be. I was a wife who saw sex as

• Sex is dirty
• Sex is wrong
• Sex is ungodly
• Sex is scary
• He is sinning for wanting it
• Sex is too much work
• I don’t like it / it hurts / I don’t know what to do
• He’s way too interested in sex–not healthy or biblical
• I don’t have time
• I don’t have energy
• What’s in it for me?

And so I avoided it and got resentful that the things I was doing wasn’t appreciated. He kept asking me to learn more… and I got angrier.

Well God has changed my heart on this. I have discovered that God made my husband’s member, and I am his wife. It is my privilege to be a part of intimacy with him. I am his only means of receiving this vital fulfillment righteously.

I believe this podcast will bring you closer to God. If you’re anything like I was, I wish I had known this even before I got married. If I could only understand what sex meant to him. If I could only understand God’s purposes for it.

I pray this would be something husbands can give to their wives (when she’s ready—listen and practice these 3 episodes: Encourage Your Wife’s Sexuality (How A Husband Can Help His Wife Be More Into Sex) 156, 156/157, 157 first).

Podcasts I mention:

• 132-S: The Most Important Piece To Amazing Intimacy with Belah Rose
• 144-S: The Discipline of “No” with Belah Rose
• Encourage Your Wife’s Sexuality (How A Husband Can Help His Wife Be More Into Sex) 156, 156/157, 157

Praying for you and your marriage,

Belah

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah. Rose.

0:19
Hey there, and welcome. Thank you so much for joining. I’m belah rose, nice to meet you. I’m trying to imagine who’s on the other side of this microphone. I wonder if you’re a wife, who was asked by your husband to listen to this podcast. And if that’s the case, I would just love to smile at you and welcome you and let you know this is a safe place. Ultimately, if I knew you, I would love to have coffee. And you and I could sit down together and you could tell me what’s going on in your heart and your background, your past, even the difficulties in your marriage now and how you’re feeling about intimacy and why it’s where it is. And I know there’s so much beneath what’s going on for you. And you probably think I have no clue how your marriage is or why it got there, or the difficulty you’re in right now. And the truth is, I don’t, there’s no way for me to know. But here’s some questions I might have in case you are at a place where I have been. You might be feeling if you are anything like I was that you’re frankly annoyed, that he’s asking you, again, to read something to listen to something to change the way you are sexually. You might be just flat out frustrated, you know, hands on your hips, or crossing your arms and being like, come on, this lady has no idea what’s going on in our marriage. And this husband of mine, over and over and over again, tries to tell me about sex. And it’s just so frustrating. I want this to stop. Another thing you might be going through is you might be hurt. Because it feels like he doesn’t think you’re good enough in bed. Once again, he’s hurting your feelings by giving you another resource to look into. Another one is you might just be angry, upset that you do so much every single day. Maybe you take care of the kids full time, which is hard work. Maybe you are working outside of the home for a paycheck. But it’s just as hard or you know, you come home you clean you do the dishes, you work with the kids. I mean, it’s a constant work in your life. And then when you’re completely exhausted by the end of the day, your husband like rolls over and wants to get frisky. You’re like are you kidding me? And then, you know, here you are trying to be good wife. And he’s asking you to listen to another thing to give you another item on your to do list, which is pages long as it is. Another thing is you might be asking, What the heck is he doing for me? When was the last time we had a date? When was the last time he picked up flowers just to surprise me? You know, how was he loving me if I’m supposed to do all this sex stuff for him. Another thing you might be thinking is, as a Christian man, he should not be thinking about sex as much as he is. However much we’re having sex, he should be grateful. Because look at Jesus. Look at Paul, John the Baptist, those guys didn’t have sex and look how much they were able to do for the Kingdom. You might be like, my husband has got to get it together. Isn’t he supposed to be dying to the flesh? And you could quote a million Bible verses at him to let him know that he’s sinful for wanting you to do those things. So I don’t know where you are. In that you might I think finally probably I would say you might also just be struggling with the whole idea that this act, sexuality in your marriage is just dirty. It’s wrong. It’s sinful. It has never been talked about in a good way. How in the world you don’t even have good language to speak about it with every time you try to talk about different different parts that either sounds like you’re reading a medical dictionary, or you’re on a, excuse me, but pornography site. I mean, this seems like a horrible thing. How in the world? Is this supposed to be positive and holy and godly?

5:16
So I kind of wanted to just give you just a little bit, maybe, hopefully insight of where I have been, as a wife, as a woman. I have been in each of those spots. I want to address each of those. But before I do, I want to tell you that I hear you. I have been there each of those items I understand completely. I have been in those spots. That’s why I can describe them. Because I have been there I am a woman I felt those things. Another thing I could say is, what about I have low libido? I don’t want to have sex. Why is his drive more important than mine? How about this one, he is selfish in sex. I don’t want to do all the things he wants me to do. Or what about this one? I do have sex with him. But he never stopped. He just always wants intimacy with Me. It’s too much. There’s are all the excuses. But I would say reasons. Those are all reasons that you’re like, This is not what I am going to do all of the time. I am not going to do all this. I’m not okay with it. I don’t think it’s the way God wants me. It’s not what he’s asking me to do as, as a wife as a person, it it’s not, honey, it doesn’t matter that much. Stop asking me to do this all the time. So if you any of those things, identify with you. That’s what this conversation is about. I hope you’ll listen in with an open heart to see if God wants to speak to you through this podcast through this episode, if there’s some truth in here that he wants to show you.

7:14
So I wonder if you can agree with me that God made the universe that God designed everything carefully. With deep detail. Every single molecule, every cell in your body is designed and created by the master himself. Your body, my dear, is a masterpiece. Whether you like it or not. God designed all of it. He designs Your beautiful eyes. He designed your glorious fingers. He designed your heart. He designed your insides, he designed your brain. And he designed your intimate, womanly parts. He designed all of that. He also designed your husband, his broad shoulders, his however your husband looks maybe he’s got a beard, maybe he’s got whatever it is, I rouse all this stuff he designed. But he also designed your husband’s penis. So just a quick note about language, I recognize that there is hard language to figure out how to say things in a good way. And I’m sorry if the wording that I’m using is not the best for your particular experience. But I’m going to try as hard as I can to make it neutral say words that don’t evoke things. So I’m hoping that you’ll give me grace and just kind of keep your heart open to what I might say beneath the wording what’s the message behind it? So let’s try that again. He also designed your husband, his broad shoulders, his however your husband looks maybe he’s got a beard or maybe he’s got whatever it is I rouse all this stuff he designed but he also designed your husband’s penis. He designed everything about your husband’s penis. Just take that in. Recognize that is true. God made his member every part of your husband’s member is God designed, God made your husband’s penis to become erect. He made your husband’s penis exactly the shape exactly the way every part of it, God designed. So let me tell you a little bit about what that means. Your husband’s penis is an appendage from his body. It’s right between his legs. Every appendage of our bodies has blood pumping through it 24 hours a day, seven days a week, the blood is constantly pumping, because it’s bringing oxygen and nutrients. And it’s also carrying out metabolic waste. It’s doing all these processes all of these things. And honestly, I don’t really understand most of it. But I will say that blood is constantly flowing. Your husband’s penis is not like anything else. The only time blood flows in there and flows out is when it’s wrecked. Which means for a healthy appendage, it has to have blood flowing. So if you were to cut off circulation from your hand, long enough, your hand would not be functional. And that’s the same way. So God designed your husband’s penis to become wrecked very often, very frequently. For this reason to stay healthy. So your husband’s penis actually has four different reasons to become a wrecked. One, you probably are very familiar with the morning erection. Very natural, happens every day, every single day he has this morning and what reaction that he wakes up with. Another one is called a reflexive erection. Which means if something or someone touches his penis, it becomes erect. Blood starts flowing, it’s very natural.

12:11
But when I say something, he literally could bump up against a trash can. And suddenly blood is starting to flow and it’s becoming erect. Another one is the mind erection right? That is when he’s thinking about sex or he sees something sexual. It comes through his mind, that’s when it actually becomes erect that way. And then the last one, right is the random erections. Literally because to keep your, your husband’s body healthy, the bloods going in the blood just going out, there’s no actual stimuli, there’s no reason aside from his body’s got to clean that thing out or get oxygen to or whatever. There’s reasons. So. So that’s, that’s the piece I want to just be clear about the way God designed your husband’s penis is to have erections. Now, shockingly, there, you’re an average husband has 11 erections every single day. 11. That’s shocking to us, isn’t it when shocking, 11 erections. And regardless of the cause, he wants to use it. Because the blood flowing into his penis, as the blood is flowing, it’s very pleasurable, every type of erection he has is very pleasurable, every type of touch is pleasurable to him. Now, us as women, we don’t have to really touch ourselves very often. It just, it’s not part of the way we go to the bathroom and things like that. But for husbands, they always have to touch their penis to use the restroom. Just to make sure it doesn’t spill onto the floor, they’ve got to touch it. And that’s pleasure that even if they’re not grasping it to orgasm, just touching it is pleasure. It’s, that’s the way it was designed. It’s not a normal appendage. It’s not anything like that. So God made your husband’s penis very specifically,

14:23
very uniquely. So talking about what your husband’s penis means to him. Let’s discuss that. His penis is what makes him a man. Think about it. It’s his whole manhood is in between his legs. If you didn’t have that, he would not be considered a man.

14:50
He would be called a unike. And I just wonder would you be would you want to marry a husband that doesn’t have a penis is that Is that what would that be attractive to you?

15:02
I don’t think so. I think you want a man, I think you want him. Because you know, it’s important. You know, it’s the thing that makes him a man. It’s what makes him special.

15:15
It’s what makes him unique. From women. It’s different. It’s, it’s that thing. It’s that part of him, that’s a man. Every day, your husband walks out into this world. And the question he asks of life is, do I have what it takes? Am I good enough? Do we have what it takes to take on this world to do this job to be there for my family, to make enough money so that we can survive to, to give to my, my wife, what she needs to serve my children to be what God wants me to be in this world? Do I have what it takes? Am I enough? Those are the questions that essence is who your husband is his heart. And his penis is the thing that makes him that man that’s asking those questions. So when his penis is not being respected in your home, he feels like he’s not enough. He feels like he doesn’t have what it takes to make it in this world. And every erection that he has, every time he sees his penis, every time he touches that it’s a reminder of the intimacy or lack of an intimacy that he has in his marriage. It’s a reminder, regardless of all the, you know, advertisements, all the, you know, nonsense that is so rampant in our world of all the sexual imagery, regardless of that, just the way he’s built, just the way the erections happen all the time, reminds him, that he’s not making love, that he’s not enjoying. his manhood is not respected in his home. So when you ignore when you reject, and sadly when you criticize, or accuse or anger really respond to his meager attempts at seduction, or, or desire for you, you’re rejecting his manhood, you’re saying, You’re not enough for me, babe. You’re not enough for this world, you don’t have what it takes. And you may be thinking, Why in the world would I have the ability to make this great man feels so terrible about himself. You know, if he was so great, he would be able to do that all by himself. It’s not up to me to make him feel that way. And I hear what you’re saying. Because certainly, there’s an element of him having to rely on God to for his self worth. But you as a woman have the privilege of making him feel like a man of honoring his manhood in your marriage, you are the only one who’s allowed to touch that to interact, to enjoy, to caress to cherish his member, he is a man because of what’s in between his legs and you are the only one that’s able to love and appreciate that. He’s sitting if he gets that any other way. That is your responsibility, and your privilege that you can make him feel alive and excited about life. I need to tell you that when a man doesn’t make love to his wife, he feels lonely. He feels depressed. He feels stressed, literally that is when oxytocin is released is at the point of orgasm. He has a much lower oxytocin load in his bloodstream than women, women, you know, seeing a baby or being cuddled or a hug. Those are things that release oxytocin in our bodies. But for a man it’s very, very low until the point of orgasm where this big surge of oxytocin is released. And it’s this amazing feeling in his body where he feels loved. He feels depreciated. He feels excited about life. He feels alive. That’s what you give him when you give him the opportunity of loving you through love making He feels your love through the act of sex. And large part is the way you feel about his member.

20:11
When you treasure that, and appreciate what God has made in him as a man, you’re appreciating what God has made in him, you’re appreciating his member, those are one and the same, believe it or not. It’s funny, I was just talking to you. It’s actually it’s amazing. I was just talking to a new friend. And she was telling me that she just got back from Iraq. And she was telling me about what’s going on over there. And, and literally, she was in a town an hour outside of I think the town is Mosul were like the hub of ISIS, that they captured this city. She is literally she was staying with a missionary family who’s there long term, missionary to the Iraqi people, right next to a refugee camp, like she was one hour away from ISIS, and staying with these missionaries. And, you know, in my heart, in my mind, I’m like, I want so desperately to help. I want to help this world that’s so in need that so is broken and suffering, you know. But the best gift I can give people that are doing the hardest work in the world. That family, I just imagine that family is giving them a strong marriage, a unified marriage, where they recognize and understand each other and the love and, and what it means to connect as as marital partner so they can fully focus on the work that God wants them to focus on. So you don’t know who God wants your husband to be, until you’re loving Him, and serving him respecting him the way that you get to as a wife, you don’t know the kind of man he’s supposed to be the kind of unified couple that you’re supposed to be until you have this. This revelation to this is in your marriage that you honor his manhood, to you respect him. As a man, you don’t know what God is going to do through you through your love, through your love. This is not something the world made up the world took God’s design, God’s creation, and they twisted it. And they turned it into what it is sin plastered all over our culture. That is sin. But in your marriage, in the garden, there was man, there was woman, they were naked, and they were on ashamed. Adam was made first God said it is not good for man to be alone. And he made Eve. It’s right there. To gather together they are to be doing this work together. They are to making love. Jesus specifically said He made man and woman so they could be one flesh. I mean, Jesus, who never married, said it was important for man and woman to become one flesh. She’s talking about the connection, the sex that you are supposed to be having in your marriage, that union, that bonding, it’s a design of God. And your husband knows it. He knows it. And I think one of the reasons is so vital to a husband is because for us as women to feel loved, to feel cherished, the things we really want to experience so that we actually get turned on and want to make love are really the fruits of the Spirit. We want to experience a man who’s patient and gentle and kind, and loving, and generous. That turns us on who’s trustworthy and faithful, who’s loyal. Those are all things that we want in a man. And if you think about it, those things go together, the woman wanting a man who embodies the gifts of the Spirit, and the man wanting to enjoy sexual love from his wife and it together, they have to serve each other in in that way. And it becomes that we’re more like Christ doing those things. So one thing you might be asking and it kind of touched on it, in the beginning, is a man of God should be dying to his flesh. Right? Jesus was able to go his whole life without making love Paul, John the Baptist. I mean, there’s a lot of monks and great saints and people that that went their whole lives without it. And you know, Jesus specifically says, I don’t have the verse in front of me, but I believe it’s Matthew 19. But he says, if they can do that they should. Basically if they can

25:07
not be connected in marital intimacy, then they should, if they cannot be married, they should, but otherwise, they should be married. Paul even talks about don’t burn with passion, get married, so you can get on with the work that God has you to do. If you’re married, you should not be burning with passion any longer because that passion should be satiated by each other, you should be making love. God designed it that way. One note I wanted to make about how these other men were able to, you know, sustain a celibate life is this is just something that may be helpful to think about is that when we make love the first time when we are a virgin, and then the first sexual experience, it literally changes brain chemistry, there are brain connections that were not there beforehand. That’s why it makes it’s so significant. When someone’s a virgin, it’s so significant, because literally, they don’t have brain connections that are there after it happens. And so, I wonder, it’s just a question. I don’t have a whole lot of, you know, I don’t have a whole lot to back this up. But I just wonder if people like Paul, Jesus that never sinned, you know, John the Baptist, these these great, great men who were able to do so much, I wonder if God didn’t give them the grace to not have the constant distraction of sex, because they never had it in the first place. So that’s kind of a wonder for me. But aside from that, if you just think about our culture, right, we’ve got scantily clad women on every advertisement, even if you don’t watch movies, aside from G rated films, you would still see it all over the place constantly. There’s sexual imagery, objectification of women’s bodies, all the time, everywhere. It’s the normal style of clothes. Now, Jesus time, in, you know, the Saints didn’t live with that kind of input. You know, there wasn’t the temptation of pornography all the time, it was very different. And when that happens, that distraction, when he gets an erection very, very naturally just happens when he, you know, begins to notice his body. And just so you know, it’s his body, he notices it every single time it happens. And when he like it happens, and he’s thinking, Oh, I’d love to be making love. If he automatically is thinking about his wife. Why then that’s a holy, that’s a holy response to this natural reaction. But if he’s burning with passion, he’s like, I need something to satiate me. That’s awful. That’s distracting. That’s not allowing him to do the work that God wants him to do. It’s completely distracting. I just again, think of what God might be wanting to do through your husband, but because he’s so desperate to be loved in his marriage. It’s just not happening. I mean, we’re we’re desperate to be loved. And we have a husband or we have a wife. I mean, can you imagine? Think if it were you, and I’m sure, you know, there’s tension in your marriage, if there’s not generous intimacy, in the marriage bed, there’s, there’s significant tension, I am sure of it. So the way you feel when you don’t feel loved, it’s just a constant thing. So I do want to talk about one thing that might be on your heart as a wife. And this happens, it really does a lot is maybe you have been in an intimate situation, and your husband has not had an erection. And now because I’m talking about how natural it is, and how it happens all the time, and every day. You’re wondering, well, why did it happen when we were going to make love? Was he not attracted to me, you know, what was going on? And I just want to, you know, kind of calm and, you know, be kind to your heart for a minute because it’s actually probably has nothing to do with you. Sometimes there are just things that get in the way of him actually being able to perform. And some of those things are stress. Some of it is health things medication is a bit Big one.

30:02
And like I said, he’ll, he’s probably having, you know, blood flowing through having these directions and different circumstances. But it’s not because he’s not attracted to you. It’s simply because of these other elements. However, I will say once it happens once, and more than likely would happen again, because he begins to get anxious. Or maybe he’s anxious the first time and it just kind of continues on as a self fulfilling prophecy. So as a wife, the best thing you can do is whatever happens, except it with love, and cherish his member in every way. And remember that it’s pleasurable, when his member is filling with blood. So even if it’s soft, and there’s nothing that you can tell happening, you just being kind and generous with your touch and kiss and all the different wonderful aspects of loving his member, you can actually cause him to feel loved. Even if the act of lovemaking doesn’t happen, because he doesn’t have an erection, it’s going to make it much more likely that he’ll have it the next time. And either way, ultimately, he’s going to feel respected and loved and treasured as a man. Just because he doesn’t have a full on erection, it doesn’t mean that it’s not pleasurable, it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t feel that depth of love that you’re giving to him. So whatever happens in any circumstance, give him that respect, given that honor of the man and honor his manhood in the midst. Maybe you had been thinking, you know, how is it that a man is so sensitive? The truth is, God made him so sensitive in his heart, about his manhood, what’s in between his legs, on purpose, in the same way that you are sensitive about the way he speaks to you, or the way he desires you, that’s your heart. You know, if he listens to you, if he loves the way you think, and the way your body is, and all these things, you’re very sensitive to that he’s the one that can hurt you the most, because he is closest to you, that romantic relationship is unlike any other relationship and it should be, he is sensitive to this, it is very, very much a part of who he is. So what I want you to do, my dream for you, is to get to a place of loving his member. This, that might sound completely silly and ridiculous right now, and that’s okay. But this is what I want. I want you to understand that it’s not just about doing your duty, or, or, you know, giving him what he wants, whatever. It’s literally about loving his soul, in your intimacy, you are loving this man. And that God made in his member, you want to know why I think that’s so significantly is because God knew this when he made Adam. Okay, when Abraham was given the promise that all his descendants would be blessed through Abraham. And at some point, he required them to be circumcised all of the men to be circumcised. Now God could have said, You are my people. So I’m going to more mark you. So all you need to do is is you know, you need to mark your forehead with a big dot, you know, maybe a big scar. That would probably be you know, very painful, but circumcision is very painful. So something where it’s on their face, like everyone knew this is God’s person, because they have a big mark and they can see it. That is not what God required of his people. He required them to mark the thing that matters most to them. The thing that matters most to your husband is his member. That’s what God asked of his people to say, I know you and I know this is most important, and I require for you to be my people and to consecrate the thing that matters most to you as a man, to me, that that is the commitment that is the value or making to me

34:49
that so that’s a little bit about his heart. Why his member means so much, and why the intimacy that he’s having in his marriage if he is having it or the frequency, why it affects him so very much, because it is because it is that important. So you might be thinking in the back of your mind, well, you know, great, so now I understand how vital it is to him. But when am I going to have time to do anything? I mean, already, I feel stressed. And, you know, the intimacy we do, have I, I can barely get that together. How am I supposed to do more than this? And when I think that you can either ask him to listen to this, and you can say, is this true? And if it is, you can say, well, I’ve noticed that I have X, Y, and Z to do every week. And I would like you to take on X, Y, and Z. And those phrases, I’ve noticed dot dot dot, I’d like dot, dot dot, are actually very, very good phrases for you to use. And that gives him the understanding of, I would love to make love to you. But I have got a lot on my plate. And I would like some help. So if you start thinking about what would you need to happen in your life to be able to prioritize this? And you might be thinking, well, how much do I need to be making love so that he feels satisfied and loved and all that stuff? Absolutely ask him, he might say twice a day. So that might not be reasonable. However, get to a place where he is feeling loved. And if you’re not doing once a week, get at least two once a week, if you’re getting two once a week, try for two times a week, and from there, you know, see what’s sustainable, then for you. I mean, I don’t want you to feel force I don’t. That’s not, that’s not the point, you should not feel forced to be making love to your husband. But it is what I do believe you need to do is reprioritize your life so that your marriage is just after your relationship with God. There’s there your relationship with God. And then there’s your marriage, the very next rung. Okay. And then there’s your family, your kids. And from there, it goes out to your ministry and your work and the other areas of your life. But your marriage has got to go before soccer practice, okay. Your marriage has got to go before, you know, craft DIY, DIY projects in your home. I don’t know what’s keeping you from doing that. But cut it out, cut that piece out. So that you can have what you need to be able to make love. And it’s not just, you know, you need an extra hour so that you guys can get together. It’s more than that, especially for women, we need peace in our lives, we need to have less stress. We need to feel good about our bodies, all of those things are required for us to enjoy intimacy. So how do you do that? How do you turn into a woman that likes to make love? While you need to value peace, you need to reprioritize cut the things out, they’re stressing you out. Really reassess your life and figure out what needs to be cut so I can love and value and cherish my husband. And if a husband’s listening, which I imagine you would be think about how you can approach your wife in, in loving her so that she can love you. Someone’s got to break this cycle. Someone has got to break this cycle. So taking her out to dinner, you know, loving on her the way that she receives love. I talked about that in episode 156 156 Slash 157 and 157. That’s actually three episodes, though it might sound very confusing. Listen to those, get some insights there. But figure out how you can offload her plate. What can you do? How can you make your lives less stressful? Maybe

39:37
it means downgrading your home. Maybe it means buying less stuff, maybe it means budgeting so you don’t have to have two jobs, maybe one job and a part time job. I don’t know but this is really important. If you want to have a God centered life, you have got to value your intimacy. You can not have your husband addicted to pornography or are going on every distraction that there is in the world because he cannot get the intimacy at his own home. It’s not okay and it has to change, it has to change. And you, my dear wife have the ability to change it. You just don’t know what God might want for your marriage for your life, I have got to tell you, I am so much happier. When I am making generous love to my husband. That’s when he does the dishes. That’s when he takes care of the kids. And with a good heart, that’s when he buys me flowers. That’s when he takes me out on dates. When I am generous in lovemaking, I feel loved in every other area of my life. So if you have a low libido like I do, you still serve you still are generous, he still love his member in intimacy, there’s a lot of ways to do it, it does not have to be intercourse if you are not physically able, or if you are lacking energy at the end of the day, or if you whatever, there’s a lot of other ways to do it. But make sure that his intimacy, that connection between the two of you is made. And I say love making again, there is a lot of ways you can make love that do not have to be specific penetration, intercourse there’s, there’s so many other ways just understand how very vital it is. Alright, so we have come a long way, you have recognized that God designed your husband’s member, it was not the world’s idea. It was God’s. It’s very, very vital to his heart. his manhood is in between his legs, who he is as essential man. And you as a wife determine if he feels like he has enough in this world. Yes, he should rely on God for that. But you are, you are that one person that can affirm him as a man. And that is through however you desire, in intimacy with your husband, you affirm him as a man, he feels loved. He feels revitalized, he’s feels rejuvenated. He feels excited about life. It releases stress from his life and makes him more hopeful. God made it this way. We are important. Women, you are vital to your husband’s life. Adam needed Eve, your husband married to you because he needed intimacy in his life, he wasn’t able to be celibate his whole life, he wasn’t able to be like Paul and Paul said, If you can’t stand it fine, get married, but then keep doing God’s work. That’s what the whole point of it is. So you can do the work that God has to do fully unified, fully loving each other. That’s going to make you better parents, that’s going to make you better church members, that’s going to make you better ministry leaders, that’s going to make you better missionaries. That’s going to make you hear from God better. Because when he gets an erection when he’s there praying, it’s not going to distract him into thinking, oh my gosh, I wish I could could could could release this somehow he’s going to be like, Oh, I love my wife so much. And then he’s gonna get back to praying. Again, it’s an erection just because of a random erection or some kind of molecular, you know, blood flow process or whatever. But it happens constantly. This is his body. This is your husband. This is the way God designed him. It is holy, it is good. Intimacy with this man with your man is good and holy. If this is something you struggle with, I really encourage you to listen to episode 132. It says it’s called the most important piece to amazing intimacy. It really goes into why the world says it’s x and what it really is in God’s kingdom in the way that God sees sex the way that he designed sex. So

44:32
next steps for you. Write down why you’re not doing this. Why is this not part of your life? What are the blocks? What are the barriers? What is the baggage? What is the pain? Write it down and journal about it? What are the things you’re not forgiving your husband of that’s preventing you from moving forward. What are the areas that you’ve been ignorant of that Now, maybe I hope and prayerfully you’re beginning to have your eyes opened to what are the things you need to understand before you can move into a greater depth of intimacy, journal these things, pray about these things. Get to an understanding that this is what needs to be happening in your marriage. This is what glues you two together for peace, for purpose for unity. I have a ton of other resources. Again, if this is your first time listening to the podcast, I, I really hope that you would prayer fully under just just seek this seek God on? Is this true? Is it real that you design my husband this way? Is it true? Is it true that this is what you care about? Is it true that you want me to love my husband’s member? The way that belah rose described it? Is that really dirty? Is it really sin? Or did I just get tainted by what the world and what this Satan wants me to misunderstand it or misrepresented as, because I want you to know do your wife my whole life. I’m talking Bella, I thought it was gross. I thought it was disgusting. I thought it was sin, I thought it was wrong. I thought all those other women are sinning by doing such nasty things to even their husband, like it just is wrong. It’s the worst. And it was a long process. But by God’s grace, my eyes are open. And this is the way God made it. Their culture was very different. I think the women in their culture understood the man’s genitalia very, very, very differently. And we’ve lost that for various reasons. But in this society, in this culture, men see sexual images all the time. It’s really, really hard for them to resist the temptation of thought, the temptation of pornography, that those temptations are real. And really, really, really, I mean, I cannot even imagine women wear scantily clothed clothes, scantily clothed things all the time around your husband. And if he is not receiving intimacy in his marriage, it’s really hard for him to turn his eyes away or not be tempted, or all these things he should be doing. But you as a wife, your his opportunity to feel loved in these ways, you’re his only opportunity to, to, in a holy way to receive that. Those desires, those needs that God put in him. So you too, could be unified for the glory of God. Because you have things that he doesn’t have. He has things that you don’t have. And so when you unify for God’s work, that’s the biggest that’s the most powerful thing. All right, so next steps action step is to journal journal through this process. Why do you think this thing’s Why are you not moving forward? What are your next steps journal through how to reprioritize your life? And then have some honest conversations with your husband? Honey, are these things true? Is this how you feel? Is this your heart? Right? Sorry, it was journal, then pray, then ask your husband about it. And figure out how you guys can reprioritize your life so that intimacy is a priority. So that you do your wife have energy for it after the end of the day, that you can change your life around so that sex becomes something that happens. You are not a victim of this world or this life, you have ability to make choices. So that intimacy is a priority. Make the choices, they’re hard choices, but make those choices. I’d love for you to listen to episode 144 If it’s really hard for you to know how to prioritize your life according to God’s will. And again, in the context of making intimacy a priority. If there are husbands listening who want to invite their wives to listen to this podcast, I really did record this podcast for you. There are so many husbands that reach out to me in absolute such suffering and pain. They have just been through. I just can’t imagine what they’ve been through for years and years and years of redacted rejection and loneliness and sadness and suffering because their own wife who committed to cherish and honor and serve him till she died. She is not even close. She’s completely non understanding who he is as a man. So these these husbands right into me at it Know how to help them. I don’t know, I do this podcast because I’m trying to get the word out. So I hope, I hope this is a gift for wives that a husband can give to his wife, when she’s ready, that he can give this to her and say, Honey, I love you. I want to live a happy future with you. I want what we are together to increase and get better and better. And I believe this is something that would really help me to feel loved when I’m with you. Together, I would love to grow in our marriage. And the reason I say when she’s ready is because I asked you dear husband, I, this may be the time to share this with her, but it may not be. And I asked you to just be prayerful about when and how to present this material to her. And, you know, listen to those episodes, I mentioned 156 through 157. See how you can implement the things that you can implement as a man that you can do what you can do as a husband to make her feel safer and more cherished and more attractive to you. And then maybe it’s going to be two months from now maybe six months from now, maybe a year from now when she’s going to be ready to receive this particular episode. Because it’s more important that it’s the right time than it is that it’s immediate. I know that you’re impatient. I know it’s been a long time. But what’s six more months when it’s been, however many years of loneliness and pain. So I encourage you to your husband on that and think about how you can help think about how you can give her like do her chores and take things off of her plate. How can you do that? How can you be active in your part there? Let’s just pray. Father, I just asked for the wife listening on the other end of my voice God, I thank you that she’s listened all the way to the end. I pray God that you would soften her heart God, I pray that you would open her eyes in the way that you desire to God. If there’s anything that I’ve said, that’s been off point, I pray God, that you would show her God I pray that you would heal her heart. There’s so many things, so many reasons. She has to feel the way she does. So many experiences. It could be abuse, it could be resentment that’s built up over the hurt and pain that she’s received from her husband. It could be ignorance that that came from her, her family and and the different you know, sin that’s that’s been put on her and I just ask that you would heal her heart. I pray God that you would heal their marriage, Lord, you want so much more for their relationship, and not just happiness, but holiness and productivity in your will in this life God that we’re living for eternity God and what they do as husband and wife in the privacy of their own bedroom matters. God give them the Insight give her the insight to understand that God and I pray that she would be she would want to understand more that she would want to seek out more and give her the grace and the time and the motivation the energy to do that Lord. In Jesus name we thank You that You are the one that changes hearts God. I pray that you would encourage the husband listening. Give him wisdom and endurance Lord, we love you. Amen.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Lynn shares in this second half of her interview, about how she healed from the porn addiction of her husband. She says you can forgive an addict too quickly and she tells us what forgiveness really is. She talks about how God walked her through the most challenging time in her life and what changed in her as a result. They survived to 25 years of marriage and it’s become sweet. She also shares sexual intimacy tips that will help any wife…so listen in!

Learn more about Lynn at lynnmariecherry.com

What You Will Discover

• How Lynn came to know God in a new way.
• The chief 3 things central to their marriage of 25 years.
• As a wife, own that you can enjoy sex for you, not just for him.
• How not to talk about forgiveness too soon.

Tweetables

• Forgiveness is about letting go of a better past.
• Sometimes we would never choose to change unless we had that uncomfortable feeling of pain.
• Own the fact that I enjoy sex and I want to enjoy sex.
• In spite of the challenges we were able to stay steady.
• God gets more glory out of redemption than if we never had the problem.
• Why would you turn down a perfectly good orgasm? -Dr. Laura Schlessinger

Resources

• Keep Walking The 40 day devotional that Lynn writes and encourages you out of your heartbreak and into hope.
• affairrecovery.com

Scriptures

• I would have despaired unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the LORD In the land of the living. Psalms 27:13

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah. Rose.

0:19
Hi, there, thank you for joining me, I hope you’re having a good day, thank you for letting me be a part of it and welcoming me into your life. And I don’t take that lightly. I know that you’ve got plenty of things to do. But I do appreciate that you’re taking the time to gain some inspiration and some wisdom from my guests. And from this podcast, because God uses it, I believe to impact people, in their marriages, as their marriages are so important to him and what he wants us to do in this world, I do believe. So today, we’re in the second half of our interview with Lynn Marie cherry. And you know, she’s talking about just a really terrible difficult season of that even lasted years. And how God brought them through it, and where they are on the other side now. So if you haven’t listened to the first half that started last week, you can do that. But let’s dive in

1:34
Alright, so Lynne, you talked about last week, he the story of coming upon your husband, in the middle of the night watching pornography, and then going through four years of just drudgery and not experiencing joy in your marriage and in life in general, and, and then actually facing it and what your healing journey was like, and now I kind of want to know what, what happened after that. You know, what, what does your marriage look like now?

2:09
Well, I am so grateful to be able to say that my marriage is better than it’s ever been better than before, the truth of my husband’s addiction came out and better than I could have hoped for. I’m so grateful that we persevered through the challenge, and that we both engaged in recovery and and came out of that other side, I have a story that I think illustrates this. So well. In the middle of our recovery, my husband had a trip for work, and he wanted me to go with him. And I remember just thinking, I do not want to go anywhere alone with you right now. You know, we had at home, we had our two boys and we really try hard to, to not fight and not bring our issue out in front of our children. So if I went on this trip alone with him, we didn’t have the buffer of our children, like this could go every which way of rod, you know, it could be really bad. But but you know, I knew, I knew that I needed to go. And I appreciated that he wanted me to go. And so we went on that trip together. And just had ended up having a great time, met some old friends from college and enjoyed the conference that we were a part of, and and we made it through without any major incidents, or expense. So but then, so a few years after therapy when we’re doing well, and it was actually our 20th anniversary. So five years ago, we went to celebrate our anniversary and I remember feeling excited about this trip. Like this is a triumph and we’re gonna celebrate and we made it to 20 years we there were times where we thought we might not make it another year. So it was a big deal. And feeling really good about the trip. But literally on the flight. My husband, I started bothering him and he took his contact out he put his glasses on still not feeling any better. So the second day that we were at the resort, he he didn’t sleep at all the whole night he was in so much pain in his eye and we call the resort the hospital. We ended up having to go to a hospital in Mexico and we find out he has an ulcer on his cornea. Every four hours of our 20th anniversary trip we have to put two different kinds of medicine in his eye. We had to wear a big fluffy hat to Stay out of the sun and he couldn’t go in the water like, this really stinks. You know, when you’re celebrating your anniversary. It’s the Mexican Riviera. On top of that, the people who were taking care of our our boys, there was a total fallout with our oldest son and the people he was staying with. And so he was messaging us on Facebook, like this is horrible. He’d actually climbed out of their house in the middle of the night, was trying to get someone, his youth pastor to come pick him up like it was, it was a disaster. And so, you know, we have these major issues on the trip. And yet, beautifully, incredibly, we were able to stay steady. And in spite of the challenges, we we enjoyed that time together. And I remember thinking, Okay, we had the trip without incident that was so scary that we made it through and now we have this trip, we’re excited about this crazy stuff going on. And yet we made it through together and had such a good time, in spite of the difficulty. And I that was a real testimony to the work we had done in our marriage and the growth that we both had in our personal lives. And so yeah, it’s good. It’s good. Wow,

6:30
that’s yeah, that’s, that’s wild. I can imagine being on a trip and and hearing about your son being Oh, that must have been so anxiety provoking and worry seven. Oh, my gosh, it was a mess. Yeah, yeah. And then, like you said, staying steady. And in the midst. I mean, that’s, it’s powerful when your marriage is strong. And in the midst of the storm, you know, God uses that to help us to keep each other strong. It’s it’s, it’s amazing I.

7:06
And I remember at the end of that trip, just feeling so proud of us. Like we we really have done so much work and the skills that we have now enable us to face those storms? Yeah, that’s a good thing.

7:23
Yeah. Why would you say in terms of I mean, are there some examples that you can give of the skills that you’ve developed that maybe what they were like before and where you’ve developed now?

7:37
Yeah, you know, I think one of the one, one great thing we did have going for us was that we had made that commitment when we got married that, you know, nobody plans on worse, or better or for worse, we don’t plan on that. But we had made that commitment. And that commitment really did carry us through some of the difficulty that we faced in the beginning. But for a lot of US commitment can sort of mutate into resignation, where it sucks the life out of you, and you think I’m stuck here. And this is this is it. And so even though commitment was a good thing. I think recognizing that it’s not the same as resignation and thinking I’m stuck in this, this mess. Another great tool that came our way was hope. Just like I said in the previous episode, that when my husband began to see that there could be a life for him. Without pornography, hope really helped him to be able to do the work and to move forward and that recovery. So hope is huge. Hope for me seeing other people’s lives restored, other people’s marriages restored. I think that’s a really important part of recovery. And then one other thing is just believing in our ability to change. You know, I, I can get a little cynical. I know, I was feeling very jaded for a long time and thinking, you know, this is never going to change, or they will never change. Ah, this is terrible. But I went to a wedding early in our recovery. And I remember the beautiful bride walking down the aisle and thinking good luck with that, honey. Yeah. So really, really jaded. But I hear that, like, the great thing about God is that he’s he’s a redeemer. And that means we can exchange one thing for another and there’s there is change. One scripture that really was one of the first promises that I grabbed ahold of Psalm 20 seven, verse 13. It said, I would have just spared unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. And I remember thinking, Okay, this that I’m living in right now looks pretty bad. But I can choose to believe that there’s still goodness for me that God has goodness for my life, that he has goodness for my marriage, and that we don’t have to stay. God’s not asking me to stay stuck in this difficult, heart wrenching place, that God is challenging me to move through it and to move forward.

10:42
Yeah. Yeah, that’s awesome. And that’s, that’s a wonderful verse that I’m so glad you haven’t memorized. I think that’s wise. I think I need to memorize that. I think that our listeners need to memorize that. Can you say it one more time?

10:58
Absolutely. I would have despaired actually, this is the New American Standard Bible, Psalm 27, verse 13, I would have despaired, unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.

11:17
I love that. I love that. I think, you know, the enemy wants us to despair. He wants us to despair about our marriage, he wants us to despair about what God’s doing in our lives, or what he’s not doing what we can’t see him doing. But, but that’s, that’s how God works as he wants us to be focused on seeing God’s goodness as is and where he is working, what he is doing. And you know, relating that back to your story. I’m sure there were so many times where you just, you know, wanted to give up and you thought that you weren’t gonna make it and, and you’ve shared that with us. What was your relationship with God, like, in the midst of this?

12:08
You know, I, it really transformed my relationship with God. When I look back on that journey, I think about CS Lewis, and I love the Chronicles of Narnia, during remember, in the very first or the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and the children are coming to meet Azlan and they ask if he’s safe. And Mr. Mrs. Beaver says, he’s no, he’s not safe. He’s not a tame lion. He’s not safe, but he is good. And that challenged my theology a little bit. I mean, I grew up with what can be known more as Christian karma. Like, if you do good, you get good if you do bad, you get that. So you know, and I was a good girl. So I expected only good yeah, fact that this trauma had come into my life, just it, it rocked my theology. Yeah. And really challenged me for a while. And yet, at the same time, I knew that, that God was my only hope. And even though I wasn’t really happy with him, I knew I couldn’t do anything but pray, I couldn’t, I had to still reach out to him for help, because I knew he was my help. And, you know, I came to know God as my Savior. Knowing, like, I need saving more than just that one time I raised my hand, like, I mean, saving a lot. There many days that I need a savior, knowing God as my Redeemer that, you know, and realizing that sometimes I think God gets more glory out of redemption, than the life that never has a problem. And knowing, you know, he really did exchange that pain, for purpose in my life and for my growth and maturity, and he really is a redeemer. So I think a lot about Hagar, you know, when Hagar was back in the Old Testament with Abraham and Sarah, and she really felt he faced a betrayal. She was betrayed by Sarah, she was betrayed by Abraham and Abraham, and she ran away. So God finds her in that place where she ran away. And she says something interesting that she came to know him in a new way, by a new name. He’s the God who sees me. And so I really, I look back at my recovery and think I came to know God in a new way. And by a new name, He is the God who restores my soul. He was very transformational. I love that.

15:08
Yeah. You know, it just reminds me of how how God cares more about our heart and our transformation than he does about our happiness. And our having a comfortable life. Right? It’s just, it’s just, it’s just the same as you know, when you’re, if you’re a good mother, you’re going to make sure your your child has challenges because they’re going to learn through those. But if you give them everything that they want, if you give them all that candy, they’re gonna have rotten teeth. It’s just the way it goes.

15:46
Yeah, life is bitter and sweet. And, you know, I love this sweet times. I love the candy. But you know, it’s the it’s the bitter times that bring appreciation. And that really brings growth and not CS Lewis says that about pain, like, sometimes we we would never choose to change, unless we have that uncomfortable feeling of pain.

16:13
Yeah. Yeah. Yep, it’s so true. So if you could mention, if you if you can dumb it down to the three things after 25 years of marriage, that have been central to your success in marriage.

16:36
Wow, okay, three things. Oh, my goodness. I think that probably one of the first things is that we both wanted to honor God. We both did the best we could to keep Christ at the center. And so having Christ at the center, I think he ultimately orchestrated us coming through that, because we were, we had to keep our eyes on Him. And so not having that, that relationship with God. And having Jesus first has definitely helped our marriage survive and thrive. So that’s a really big, big step. Yeah. This is a tough question. I think the second one would probably be a little bit like I mentioned, just faith, more than believing in change, and knowing that, without faith, it’s impossible to please God, and that having faith does please God, and that he sees that, and he responds to that. So believing and change, you know, I think when you’re facing a real challenge in your marriage, a lot of times we think we have two options, we can either stay here in this mess and be miserable for the rest of our lives. Or we can get a divorce. Yeah. And God offers this third option, if we’ll both embrace it, and that is we do the work. And we walk through this difficulty together. And sometimes you don’t see that, that third option, so just having faith. And then thirdly, success of my marriage. You know, I guess I would have to say, being humble enough, and taking the risk to forgive. And forgiveness is something I don’t talk about lightly. And I think a lot of times, people talk about it too soon. And when you’re dealing with sexual addiction, you can talk about forgiveness too soon. But I, I think knowing that forgiveness is, is not relinquishing myself to miss treatment. Forgiveness is all about letting go of ever having a better past. Forgiveness is about moving forward. So yeah, there you go.

19:29
So tell me you say that one more time. So forgiveness is about you said

19:37
for forgiveness is about letting go of ever having a better past.

19:43
And what does that mean? What do you mean by that?

19:48
I think forgiveness frees us to move forward into a new future. And when we keep holding on to unforgiveness, we are stuck in the past. If will no we can’t change what happened in the past. But when we forgive, and we let go of what happened in the past, and then we’re free to move forward.

20:12
That is so good. So and I love actually exactly how you said it. So forgiveness is about letting go of a better past. Right? So it’s almost like the feelings of that wasn’t fair, or I wish I hadn’t done well, I guess, I guess you’re letting go of someone else. So you’re forgiving. Okay. So you’re forgiving. So I should have had this or this is what was I deserved? Or they did this wrong to me, which are all justified feelings. And like you said, Yeah, we need to give that, you know, it’s due course in terms of it doesn’t need to happen immediately that you’re forgiving. Is that right?

20:56
Right. Yeah, I think I know, Dr. Milton Magnus, in his book talks about how you can forgive an addict too soon. And sometimes when an addict hears words of forgiveness, they think, Oh, we’re done. Yeah. And they can sort of abdicate the responsibility. They have to do the work of recovery. So, but and forgiveness is is a it’s an event and a process. Like it’s a decision that you make, I will choose to forgive out of obedience to God. But it’s also a bunch of little choices you have to keep making every time those memories flood back in or those feelings or the pain revisits you, you know, you choose to forgive again. Yeah.

21:46
choices you have to make over and over and over again. I love that. Yeah. It’s just a forgiving over and over. So if you’re comfortable, would you be willing to share some advice or tip about intimacy that maybe you wish someone let you in on earlier?

22:03
Yeah, I would. Um, one of the things I mentioned before was that I had bought into the lie that sex was for men. And that, you know, sex was my wifely duty. And it’s just something I had to do because my husband needed it. And, you know, totally taking all of the romance and the connection, the soul connection out of it. When you make it a duty. It’s horrible. I remember one day I was listening to the radio in my minivan, and Dr. Laura slushing her. I probably said that wrong. But, uh, Dr. Laura was on there. And she was the caller who called in and she’s like, I’m just so tired. My husband wants to have sex, but I’ve been with the kids all day. I remember Dr. Laura saying, why would you turn down a perfectly good orgasm? Like, best way to end your day? I remember thinking, right? Why would we turn down a perfectly good orgasm? I mean, why would anyone turn that down? Mm hmm. And just owning the fact that I enjoy sex and that God wants me to enjoy sex and that sex is for me. And that, if I will speak up, tell my husband what I like and what I need, and make sure that it’s good for me, then I’m gonna want to have more of it. I was really like, that was the lightbulb moment. Yeah, like, why would I turn that down? Mm hmm. And then the other thought is just a great thing that I learned in recovery. There was a study done and you’re probably familiar with it. But there’s a study done by Rosemary Bhasin, on the whole arousal desire mechanism. And so you know, most of us, we watch movies, and we see these images and what sex looks like is there’s desire, and then after that comes arousal, but that this desire is like the precursor to arousal. Well, in her research, she found that 30% of women only experienced desire after they’ve already been aroused. So for women who have been through betrayal, that percentage is even higher. And this is where faith comes in, you know, to take that step of faith in intimacy. And know even when I don’t have desire, compelling me to have sex with my husband, believe that desire will come. And that somewhere in that experience, somewhere after arousal, desire will follow.

24:53
Yeah. Yeah, right. Yep. I think that’s so true. And I love that you said it’s step of faith, it’s so often in my marriage to where I’m like, Well, you know, I’ve got kind of a schedule in my head of like, well, it’s been a couple days, it’s time, we need to get this moving. And so, you know, and so I’ll take the first step, and I’ll seduce him. And, and by the time, you know, we’re getting started, I feel I feel all about it, you know, but it does take me starting and getting in, in action before my body necessarily responds,

25:31
right? Yeah.

25:33
I love that. That’s so true. So then, due to the specific marriage you’ve had, what opportunities have you had to serve or get to know God?

25:43
Well, I know that, for both my husband and I, when we were, you know, in the thick of it. This was back in 2000, or 2004, when we actually started recovery and and felt like no one was talking about pornography. And so we knew, I think both of us knew very early on in our recovery that we were tell our story that God was asking us to tell our story. And so we have both had opportunities together, as well as separately to speak to couples and men and women and share our story. Oh, my goodness, just last year, we got invited to speak at a men’s conference together. I was literally the only woman in the room. And I remember just thinking God, I don’t know what you’re up to here. But and and yet, it was such an honor. And it was so powerful just to be able to tell our story and feel like men were really wanting to hear what we had to say in wanting the help that we have to offer. Also, a couple years ago, I felt like I had to share how I made it through. And there were so many scriptures, and thoughts and stories that just carried me and helped me in this healing process. So I compiled them all together. And I wrote a devotional for women who are going through betrayal. It’s called to keep walking 40 days to hope and freedom after betrayal. And it really is, it just contains it’s a lot of Scripture, and a lot of my personal story, as well as reflection and response for women to kind of look back at their own story and see how they could move forward. Yeah. I thought someday I might want to write a book. I never thought about writing a book for women who are going through betrayal. So that was a little God’s surprise.

28:05
Yeah, right. Yeah, that’s awesome. And I’m sure that took a lot of courage to put your story out there, and you’re just Just what God’s done and and, and just be that support to others who need that. That’s so awesome. So you know, lastly, if you could go back to year one of your marriage and sit yourself down, what’s one piece of advice that you would give to you? Well,

28:37
I’d probably get my finger out. And you know, wave it a little bit in my face and say, girlfriend. Denial is not a long term strategy. You know, it can buy you some time. It can give you a little space to process, but it will cripple you. The longer you choose denial, the more it cripples, you, you know, I think, you know, my husband brought pornography into our marriage that brought several years of pain I stacked on top of that, like another eight years. So that’s what I told myself, I’d be like, just face it, and own it. And when you bring it out into the light, that’s when you can actually work on it and find your way to freedom.

29:29
Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s great. So then where can our audience find and connect with you then?

29:38
I would love for them to check out my book. Actually, it’s kind of Yeah, it’s tough to say that because it’s not really the book you want to need. Or those girls who are hurting in this area in their marriage and who have dealt with a betrayal or dealing with a betrayal. I really believe it’ll help them and it’s available on Amazon On, just keep walking 40 days to hope and freedom after betrayal. My website is Lynn Marie chery.com. I’m also on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter. So I would love to connect with anyone. And it is my honor to encourage women and to help them find hope for the journey. And just to know, they’re not alone, and they don’t have to stay stuck. Yeah, another resource is a fare recovery.com. And I’m the video blogger there. So I have some video blogs they could watch. And there’s a lot of other wonderful free resources as well as great programs and courses there at that website.

30:46
Oh, that’s awesome. Okay, I’ll have that linked up on the show notes as well. Okay, well, then, thank you, this has been a wonderful conversation, and I’m sure it’s gonna help and encourage so many.

30:58
I’ll be praying for that. And I’m so blessed to be able to have this time with you.

31:08
I just love so much the verse that she mentioned. And I’m gonna say it again, saw Psalms 2713. I would have despaired unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. I would have despaired unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. So I don’t know what you’re going through maybe in your marriage, maybe in something else. But I would have despaired unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord and the land of the living. I just encourage you today, do not despair, believe that you will see the goodness of the Lord. I just want to bless you today. Thank you for joining me, thank you for this time. And I hope that you’ve been encouraged that you walk away from this conversation with a little bit lighter, a little bit easier to go on, more inspired to live for the Lord every day, in every way of your marriage and every other part of your life. Thanks for joining me, I’ll talk to you next Tuesday. So join me. God bless you. I love you. We’ll talk next Tuesday.

32:28
Bye. Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

38:57
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

A wife who knew something wasn’t right, but she denied that it could be happening in her marriage. For years, she didn’t acknowledge what she had found out. But what was bottled was actually eroding her sense of sense of self and eventually she felt like she was drowning. This is the story of a woman who had a healing process to go through after uncovering her husband’s addiction. Its not an easy journey and one that happens far too often. I’m grateful Lynn Cherry shares her story and I think it will bring you encouragement today.

Learn more about Lynn at lynnmariecherry.com

What You Will Discover

• Why I was given the “gift of anger”
  • Because Lynn’s anger was the catalyst of her change
• When “recovery” felt like it was just scraping a gaping wound
• How her husband thought his porn addiction was just affecting him (not her)
• How there were times she wasn’t sure her marriage would survive this
• The 3 pieces of advice she gives women in her situation

Tweetables

• I felt the tangible presence of lust and then the presence of shame.
• They were the gift of life, they gave me my purpose.
• Knowing the truth is the first step to freedom
• Even when you feel you can’t trust your husband, you can trust God.

Resources

• bebroken.com
• fightthenewdrug.com
• covenanteyes.com

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:18
Hello, and welcome. I’m glad you’re joining me on the delight your marriage podcast. This is a show where we talk about marriage and sex and intimacy in all its forms. And we also talk about the struggles and challenges that can occur to married people and people in this world. And pornography is something that is, is just rampant in our society, and so many people deal with the addiction. But then how do we heal from it? And here’s a woman’s story that is raw and difficult and painful. But how she got through it and how when she felt like she was drowning. You know, God brought her through the most difficult struggle and season in her life. And she has hope on the other side. And that’s what she wants to bring us today. So let’s go ahead and dive in and listen to her story.

1:33
All right, welcome back. delight your marriage listener. I’m excited that you’re here. And I’m excited to be with Lynn Marie cherry. Welcome, Lynn.

1:42
Oh, thank you so much for having me on. Glad to be here.

1:45
Absolutely. I am too. And we’re gonna dive into your story and and hear how, you know God has brought you through so much. And Lynne has a website Lynn Marie cherry calm and we’ll give you the details of that in a little while. But first of all, Lynn, would you go ahead and introduce yourself and your family and a little bit about your day to day life?

2:10
Yeah, absolutely. So I live in Texas. I was born in North Dakota. It’s about as far away from Texas as you can get. But I think I was meant to be a southern girl. I love it here. I love the southern hospitality. I only my northern accent comes back when I talk to my parents on the phone. I do love I love being here. I went to college in Oklahoma. And that’s where I met my husband. He had gone to Bible school in Oklahoma. So we met there at a church and I have a degree in biology. Like I used to be a real smart girl before I had. They took all my brain cells. Right. But now I work for my local church. here in Austin. I’m just helping people get connected, letting them know there’s a place for them to belong. And I really enjoy doing that. My husband and I have been married for 25 years. Wow. I know. That’s a big wow. We celebrated our anniversary this summer. Had a great time in Mexico and just enjoy the triumph of that landmark and being able to celebrate it together. So just a little bit about us. Okay, I’m the firstborn. I’m like a rule follower a people pleaser. My husband was the baby of the family. He his little life of the party. Just that whole opposites attract for sure. But it’s been it’s interesting. I was thinking about it. And we have so rubbed off on each other over the years, we’re shaping each other and I definitely become more assertive, and you know, standing up for myself a little bit more than I used to for sure. And he’s definitely become more gracious. And so it’s a good thing. We have two boys. They are 19 and 16. Two teenagers who are also opposites. It’s so funny. They are my my firstborn. Very cautious, very thoughtful. Just definitely a processor. And then my second son is just he’s an actor he is all about. He’s all about drama. He’s got his high school musical coming up here in a couple of weeks. So I like to say they are caution and caution to the wind. Those are my

4:45
that’s wonderful. Wow, teenagers and two boys. So I have two boys also. And you said 16 and 19. Yes. Okay. Yeah, so they’re not too far apart in age. They were three years difference. So you had your head In school,

5:01
I did I did I and I’m glad I’m so glad not to be in that infant toddler season is like the most physically exhausting season of motherhood. So it’s a little bit more mentally spiritually taxing at this age.

5:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and minor in the toddler phase. So I’ve got a one, or he just turned two. And then the other ones three and a half. So bless you. Yeah, I’ll take it. Um, so, well, you know, this, this podcast is really encouraging wives and their marriage and their intimacy and their walk with God. And so I would love if you could share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years.

5:47
Or even recently, yeah, one of my, my, probably my like, first, like one of the most important passages in my life has been Isaiah 43. And especially verse two. But it says, this, Thus saith, the Lord, Your Creator, oh, Jacob, and he who formed you, O Israel, do not fear for I have redeemed you, I have called you by name and you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you. And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. And when you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched. Nor will the flame burn you. And there was just a season in my life when I felt like I was drowning. And I remember reading this verse one day, just feeling like the Holy Spirit was talking to me and just saying, keep walking, baby, keep walking, just put one foot in front of the other and don’t quit. There is a way through.

6:53
Yeah, that’s powerful. That’s so good. Well, I want to hear, you know, that this difficult season and struggles, you know, God teaches us so much and those really dark times and, and then it gives us hope when we get through them. So yeah, would you be willing to kind of share that season with us?

7:18
Yeah, it was, it was, you know, it’s a long process of realization. I remember early early on in my marriage, having a feeling like something wasn’t quite right. I, I just remember walking by our home office, and I was pregnant with our first son. And so you know, dealing with like, body image and like, my belly has sides. Just struggling with some of that also happened to be the same year that our house was wired with this brand new thing called the internet. And I remember walking by our office at home and thinking something’s not right in there, like something just didn’t feel good. And yet, at the same time, thinking, you know, it’s probably not a big deal. And I maybe I really don’t want to know what’s wrong. And so I, I chose to deal with this thing, really, with denial for for a long time. And then when I was when we actually when we brought our second son home from the hospital. So three years down the road. We brought him home from the hospital. And it was the week we brought him home. And okay, here little birthing side story. My first son was asteria, like 20 hours of labor. And finally, just get up, get him out. Gosh, and then but my second with second son was born in 20 minutes. What I know is I remember the nurse was like, if you have another baby, you’ve got to get to the hospital sooner. Just it was, well, he was two pounds smaller. So that made a big difference. But I was just on cloud nine thinking I could do anything like I just gave birth to the child and 20 minutes like I’m the powerful woman. Yeah. Feeling living on cloud nine and just in a high and we we brought him home from the hospital and one night I was up late feeding him and I saw the light on in our office and I remember thinking like this is great because I’m not the only grown up awake in the middle of the night and walked over to the office and I opened the door and just in an instant I felt like the tangible presence of lust just steamy entice And then followed very quickly by the suffocating oppression of shame like the one two punch of the enemy. And I saw pornography on the computer screen. So there in that moment, like this thing that is not quite right, is right in front of my eyes. And yet I did what I knew to do, I chose denial. And I closed the door, and I walked away. And I just continued pretending and coping. And I did that for four years. I like to joke that I was a zombie before the Walking Dead was cool. You know, I just just existing and just shuffling through life and really feeling like, I would probably never be happy. And at this stage life is really all about trying to provide the best possible life for my children so that they could be happy, you know, I wasn’t willing to give up on their happiness. And so that was my life for a long time. And then I got a gift, an unusual gift. i It’s the gift of anger. And I know that sounds crazy, but I really am so grateful for my anger. I was okay, being sad. I was okay, feeling lonely. But when I got angry, it scared me. And I knew I needed help. But I just thought I can’t continue to live like this. I’m a basket case. I like started swearing I had never sworn in my life. And I just was there’s so much emotion that I had stuffed in and just it started spewing out wasn’t pretty. But, um, that that anger finally was the catalyst for change. And I remembered I remember telling my husband one day like, I, I need help. We need help, but I need help. And I’m going to call a counselor. You can either come with me, or or not. But I have to go.

12:21
Yeah. Yeah. What, um, while you were, you know, in this four year period, I mean, was it on your mind a lot that, that he was doing this behind your back and engaging in this sin and betraying your marriage? And what was that? Like?

12:47
You know, I don’t, I wouldn’t say it was on my mind, in the forefront of my mind. I really did a good job of stuffing that in the back. And it wasn’t a focus of my life, you know, plus, I’m incredibly busy and with with two little boys. And, gosh, I’m so thankful for them to like, they just, they were the reason I got out of bed. I remember one morning, really not wanting to get out of bed and the boys were up and I just went and got them out of their rooms. And I brought some Matchbox cars and put them on the bed with me. And just for as long as they would I’m like just just, you know, drive your cars on the bed and hang out here with mommy. And you know, and finally they’re hungry and I have to get up. Yeah, they really were, they really were a gift of life for me and helps me to, to keep keep living. Just to give me purpose. I don’t think I gave a lot of time and space to what was happening in my husband’s life. Just really chose denial. It wasn’t until we actually did go for help. And I call the therapist. And we went you know, to that first appointment, just scared, really wondering, are we going to make it through this, but at the same time knowing it, whatever happens, I can’t live the way I’m living now. So we went to that counseling appointment. Just you know, hoping that something would change.

14:32
Yeah. Yeah. Had you ever been to counseling before or was this new for you?

14:42
That was a that was new. Definitely a brand new experience. But you know, I’d had a lot of actually, part of the reason why I finally had the courage to get help is that I had a friend who shared with me A Story of a betrayal in her marriage, her husband had had an emotional attachment to another woman. And I remember sitting across the table from her at Starbucks, just crying over this shared betrayal that we had, we were living through. But she had gone to therapy. And they were using the same people that she she recommended. She’s the one who recommended that therapist that we used. And I remember like sitting, sitting and looking at her across the table and thinking she is on the other side. Never pain that I’m drowning, and she’s on the other side. And if there’s an other side for her, there has to be an other side for me. So there was never a stigma about going to therapy, which I’m so grateful for. Plus, our church at the time totally supported us and carried us and, you know, encouraged us to get counseling.

15:56
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That’s awesome. Yeah, counseling is so important. We’ve been before it’s, it’s just, it’s a wonderful resource. Okay, so what was I mean, what was the process like in counseling, if you don’t mind sharing?

16:16
Well, that’s when the work started for me. I mean, I was really good at pretending and denial, until you know, I ran out of space. So in counseling, honestly, it felt like every week, they’re scraping my wound. So the first, the first week of our 12 week group session, every couple goes around the room and you share, you know what it is that qualifies you to need a fair recovery. So we all tell our stories. And then the second week, we went back for our second session, and a new couple had joined our group. So everybody had to tell their stories again, for their benefit. Third week, a new couple joined. And so again, we have to tell this truth of our lives that I had been pretending about for so long. I remember on the way to the fourth class, just telling my husband, there’s another couple there, I quit. I’m not telling to get like I’m dead. But I really think that God knew I needed to speak that truth. I needed to, I needed to tell the story. And that was part of coming out of denial. But it was grueling. It was grueling for me as a pretender to have to really start began to address the issue.

17:46
And so so as you were, you know, processing through this, I mean, what was the process for your husband? Was he? I mean, did he was he able to totally stop? Or was it a process for him to, you know, get off the addiction? Or how did it work?

18:03
Yeah, it definitely was a process. And I think the first step was acknowledging the fact that, that it was a betrayal. No, I think, in his mind, it was just pornography. It was this issue that he had, that didn’t affect anyone but him. And so I like one of our first sessions, there was a survey and at the end of the survey, it said, circle one betrayed or betrayer. And for both of the both of us, like that was a moment for me to say, oh, yeah, I have been, I’ve been betrayed, or even for my husband to go, Well, I know I’m not the betrayed, but that makes me a betrayer. So, you know, acknowledging that pornography was a betrayal, and that it wasn’t, even though it was his issue. It affected me. And pain and the journey that I had in recovery is very similar to a woman whose husband has had an affair with another woman. So that was definitely a big part of his his owning the issue. You know, another part for him was just discovering hope. No, he was seven years old when he found pornography in the woods behind his house. And then, you know, found it in his home and so it had been a part of his life from the time he was seven. And I think he had tried you know, many times like just to white knuckle it or Jesus and me like, we’re going to kick this problem. And and that didn’t work for him. And so he really was hopeless thinking, I, you know, this is my thorn. I’m stuck with this issue. But as we began to go to therapy, and he discovered some of the tools to break free Like he grabbed ahold of them. And, you know, there was this inequity in our recovery, like maybe I made the first phone call for us to get help. And he was maybe more reluctant at the beginning. And then he began to find hope, and freedom. And he was committed to walking through that recovery. And then I was like, I want to go back to pretending year was where I was driving recovery. And then when he was driving recovery, and he, he really began to move us both forward and just be very kind and gracious to me and all of my emotional wigged out moments. And no, he really, ultimately, even though probably caused, was part of the biggest pain in my life. He was a big part of my healing.

21:01
Yeah. Wow. Um, you said that that he, you know, he got resources and different things that gave him hope, were they? What forms were those? Were those books? Or were or ministries or what kinds of things did he get ahold of?

21:23
There were a couple of different resources. Of course, there was the group that we went to therapy with him, they specialize in sexual addiction. And so they really knew how they really know how to help people break free from sexual addiction. He also met Jonathan Doherty of brain be broken.com and met with Jonathan several times, and he was a great resource to David, this was before a fight the new drug, I know that they have a great resource for defy, that’s an awesome tool a lot of people are finding help with. But we we did sign up for covenant eyes, just online accountability software. So we still use that, you know, that’s part of the safeguards that David chose to put in place. And so we’ll probably use that for the rest of our lives, it helps him knowing that if he were to give into temptation, I would find out about it, and his friend would find out about it, and people would confront him. And so covenant is definitely part of one of the great tools that that helped us.

22:35
That’s great. And I’m gonna have all these listed on our show notes, all the all the different resources you said, so people can get it easily. So, so in his recovery, you know, and yours, how was it just in terms of your relationship? Kind of before things happen? Like you said, you were a zombie. But what were you like to him? were you, I can imagine you weren’t warm and affectionate? I mean, what was it kind of like?

23:05
Well, really, just a lot of going through the motions. You know, I mean, we still we bought each other birthday cards, and we wrote nice messages. But I was so disconnected from my heart and from my soul. And then, so there was a lot of pretending, going on and doing the thing that sounded like the right thing, even though my heart wasn’t feeling it. And then, of course, honestly, the two years of therapy were very rocky. And there were times where I didn’t think we were going to make it through together. There were times he thought we might not make it through together, but we somehow managed. I remember for a while, Fridays were fight day. And I’d go Thursday night thinking, Okay, we’re going to get up, we’re going to take this kids to school tomorrow, and we’re going to fight about something. Just it was the one day the kids weren’t in the home. And we were both off from work. And inevitably, there was something that got stirred up the day before and counseling that we were going to argue about and, and it was that way for a while. It was very, very stressful. I dealt with anxiety and chest pain and not insomnia. It was it was really, really hard. But then really coming out of that, you know, two years of counseling and doing the work and owning the issue and finding a place where the marriage that we have is not perfect, but it’s real. And we are honest with each other. And really we have tools now, relational tools, after therapy that we did not have, you know going into that so it really even though it was difficult, the hardest thing I’ve done in my life, it enriched our relationship and gave us a lot of knowledge and a lot of skills that we didn’t have.

25:16
So if if you just kind of thinking about talking to a wife that maybe she knows that her husband’s in pornography, what would you kind of give? In terms of advice to her?

25:31
You know, one of the first things I want to say is that it’s not your fault. I think a lot of us as women, it just is so crushing to know that your husband has this other thing was life and something else that’s satisfying in him in this intimate way, and it’s not you. And I think some men will place the blame on their wives shoulders, and then some women, we we take the blame. So I just want to say, at the at the start, that it’s not your fault, that it’s not about you, yes, it does affect you. But it’s not about you. And then I think my challenge would be to own the reality, but own it in a way that it does not become the epitaph on your life or your marriage. You know, one day I was reading my Bible and reading the love chapter. First Corinthians 13, and no Love rejoices in the truth. And it just made me so mad. I’m like, How could love rejoice in the truth of my life. And I was frustrated with that scripture. But in that same moment, the Holy Spirit reminded me that knowing the truth is the first step of freedom. And when we know the truth, the truth will set us free. So even when the truth is ugly, it’s an important step to freedom. So own the reality, then the second thought would be find support. Like you, this is not a journey, you want to walk through alone, I had three friends. Honestly, like sometimes you want to go and dump your dirty laundry on the Boulevard for everyone to see. And like, Hey, this is what’s happening. You’re posted on Facebook, I guess that’s the boulevard of our day. But I think it’s more helpful if you’ll just find two or three people who will faithfully walk through the journey with you. So I had three friends that really helped me unpack the baggage of my life. Just listen to me, I had a friend that watched our children when we went to counseling, and I would go pick up the boys and the kids would all go outside and play. And I would just rehash what happened and process with her and it was so helpful. One of our pastors wives was part of my support team. And I remember just calling her and I would call her and I would think she’s looking at her caller ID and saying, oh, no, it’s Lynn again. But she kept answering. And I remember her telling me like, like, God has you, and God has David. And you can trust. Even when you feel like you can’t trust David, you can trust God and keep your trust in God. So having that core group of support will really help a lot. And, you know, another piece of advice would be don’t wait until you’re done. You know, women, we can cope and Cove and we put up with stuff. And then we’re exhausted and tired. We’re like I am done with this issue. I am done with this marriage. And then you want to confront confront the problem. But that’s when, like, that’s when the real work starts. So don’t wait until you’re absolutely done before you try to get help before you reach out and look for help save some energy for recovery.

29:27
Yeah, yeah. What about the wife that’s thinking, well, it’s not all that bad. Like, what about those? Where she’s like, well, you know, he can he can do that. Because, you know, all men kind of need that or whatever. Have you heard of women kind of thinking that way?

29:50
Oh, for sure. Yeah, I think you know, our culture definitely normalizes pornography. But The more I learn about pornography the more I see how damaging and how destructive it really is. There are very few people who will begin using pornography and continue using the same type of pornography, the way that it interacts with our brain, all the chemicals that are released. There’s it’s similar to drug use where you need you need novelty, you need a stronger drug, you need a bigger high. And so people begin looking at one type of porn and two years down the road or five years down the road find themselves looking at material that would have disgusted them when they started. And that’s just the nature of of pornography use it escalates. And people find themselves looking at things that they would have never imagined looking at. And but all pornography is dehumanizing. All pornography is is destructive toward women. It does not empower women. It and so I think I would challenge the thought that it’s okay for him to look at porn. Yeah, I don’t think it’s okay at all. I think it’s going to end up really damaging your marriage, and altering the way he views sex. And the way he views you as his wife.

31:37
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I really appreciate that. I just, um, you know, it’s a, it’s a heartbreaking. I mean, I think the, the theme of this conversation is really recovery from it. And I think, you know, I think the kind of knee jerk reaction I have to it is, you know, just extreme, you know, negative feelings towards it, you know, but then I’ve heard other women that have just felt so differently, and I just feel like we needed to give some air to why it’s not okay. And what, what God thinks about it, I just can’t, I can’t believe that. I mean, I love how you kind of said in the beginning that, you know, just this tangible presence of shame, you know, directly after this, this presence of lust, and it is, it’s, it’s so shameful for the man. I mean, in, in in, I think it’s proverbs five, it talks about adultery as it destroying your soul. And, you know, Jesus talks about lusting after another woman is committing adultery with her in your heart. And, you know, destroying your own husband’s soul is what he’s doing, when he’s doing that. And I also appreciate that you said it, like it is this gift of anger, you know, this righteous indignation that this is not, okay, this is not how it needs to be. And I think anger does provide a lot of energy to get stuff moving to get stuff done. Yeah. And so maybe that’s what we need to really inspire today is for a wife out there, that’s not in some ways, not that she needs to, you know, lash out at her husband, but get angry enough at what the enemy has done to her husband and to her marriage, that she starts making steps in the direction of healing.

33:45
Yes.

33:47
You know, I, I appreciate it. Also, you know, in your story that your husband was seven, when he was exposed to this, you know, as a young woman, I was exposed to it when I was in middle school, so maybe 1314. And that started in addiction that took a long time to, to come out of, and, you know, even as a young woman in church, and, you know, with all of these desires for Jesus and holiness and stuff, it was so difficult. And the shame was so debilitating. And so I know that experience and you know, by God’s grace, it’s been many years since I’ve even had that temptation. But but it is something you know, it’s a huge temptation. For men. It’s a huge just the way they’re wired to be so visual, and it’s so natural that way, which is great in the right context, it’s a great, you know, it brings your marriage together and all this but, um, but yeah, you know, I wonder if you could even speak to that part of it. You know, I can imagine And, you know, wives, who, who know about the the pornography or, or they find out makes them very hesitant to have any kind of intimacy with their husband. But at the same time, you know, maybe they’re in the denial phase, and they’re, you know, trying to work it through or trying to, you know, entice their husband away from it. I don’t know, is there advice or other things you can kind of give in that regard?

35:29
Well, I think I just want to affirm that dealing with any issue in your marriage is a risk, to address an issue, to address an issue of any kind, comes with risk. And there is definitely there’s some real fear involved in addressing a problem. And then when you think about our sexuality, like, that’s something a lot of people don’t even talk about. And there may, you know, I just think, women, especially in sometimes women in the church, we’re not comfortable with our own sexuality. And so we have this part of us that we’re hesitating about. And then now we discover that our husband is embracing sexuality outside of the marriage. And it’s almost like, where we feel powerless, like I don’t even know my own sexuality, how am I going to deal with his? I think for for those women, you might even consider some of your own baggage, some of your own issues and how you think about sex. And I think I know, I bought into the lie that sex was all about men. And that’s probably why I did was able to cope and pretend with denial for so long, because I bought into that thought that sex is for men and sex is about men. And it’s not for me, and and so I was able to sort of shut that down and permit that in my home or rationalize it, I guess. So I would challenge that that’s a lie. That is not the truth. And that’s not God’s plan. So look, looking maybe at your own baggage, challenging some of the lies you believe, and then also holding on to the hope that there is freedom from sexual addiction. And that it’s something that your marriage can survive and come out on the other side of?

37:36
Yeah. Yeah. That’s awesome. Well, in the next part, it’s going to be our next episode coming out next week, you can hear the rest of Lynn story. I just want to underline sometimes anger gives us the energy and the motivation, that we need to make real changes. So I’m not sure where you are in your walk, or if this really spoke to you, but pornography really is is of the enemy. It’s just so debilitating in so many ways. And I believe God wants to free his people from this grip. So if you’re not affected by it personally, I know you can pray for others that are and that they would have the courage to come into the light and to work through this and to get healing for it. Come on back next Tuesday, we’re going to be talking about the rest of Linda’s story, how she worked through this and to continue to give hope to others that may be in the same situation and how she recovered and healed from it. God bless you. I love you. I’m praying for you and your marriage. And I’ll talk to you next Tuesday.

38:57
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word. If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

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Though I’m mostly talking about purifying your mind regarding sexual thoughts, this is what I would prescribe anyone battling challenging thoughts. I think we don’t talk about purifying our mind enough, especially in regards to sex. I think it may be because of embarrassment or because we think it’s not necessary to address–head on.

Well, this episode, I do. I address exactly what I wish someone had sat me down and explained me  when I struggling so severely with my sexual thoughts. I give you the why, the how and the science behind changing your thought-life towards what God desires.

Scripture/Quote:

• “Mental pain is less dramatic than physical pain, but it is more common and also more hard to bear. The frequent attempt to conceal mental pain increases the burden” – C.S. Lewis

• 1 Cor 10:13
  • No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

• Romans 5:3 & 4
  • Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.

• “He who has a why to live can bear with almost any how” – Nietzche

• “We must all suffer from one of two pains: the pain of discipline or the pain of regret. The difference is discipline weighs ounces while regret weighs tons.” – Jim Rohn

Resources:

Purity Meditation: Sign up and I will send you a recording of me reading scripture with some mellow, relaxing music.

Listen to the scripture and meditate on it. You are a child of God. You are washed clean. He has forgiven you. You are loved by God. Sign up & receive the download in your inbox.

• 97-JI: Women Battling Sexual Addiction with Jenny Miller – The DYM episode where we talk about porn addiction and how God brought us out of it.

• YouVersion – The Bible app that I use to read the bible every morning. I really like the highlighting feature so I can highlight verses I want to go back to later. Or I highlight in a different color verses I want to memorize.

• 7 Habits Of Highly Effective People – A book I read years ago but I still carry with my the lessons from it. It holds foundational perspectives in effective living.

• Essentialism – The book I’ve listened to 2x already and plan to listen to again. An incredibly relevant read in our world of distraction. Helps us understand God’s will for our lives (written by a Christian, but for a secular audience). I cannot recommend it highly enough.

• • Listen to this life changing episode of the author talking about the disciplined pursuit of God’s will. It brought me to tears the first time I heard it. The kind of tears and reminds you, this is what life is about.

• After You Believe – The book I listened to (mostly) that talks about our character as a means to determine our vocation in eternity; showing why our character matters to God.

For Transcript (see below)

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript: (basically)

• The most important thing
  • encouragement to dig in and work on this
• why we struggle with sexual thoughts
  • why does it matter?
    • Story – husband doesn’t connect with God
    • if we don’t get an understanding this it may keep us from God
  • “Mental pain is less dramatic than physical pain, but it is more common and also more hard to bear. The frequent attempt to conceal mental pain increases the burden”
    • – C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
  • why our past matters #dym
    • We are shaped by our past but not defined by it
      • “Jesus changes everything”
      • This idea is dangerous for some bc they expect to be healed, get rich, or have a their wrest dreams come true
      • He does and doesn’t
      • But doubting has given me the grace to see my faith as something I’m building, day by day…Enduring
    • And so the choices you’ve made don’t get erased from your memory
      • Your sin and shame do but the choices shape your path
      • If porn is in your past, your future involves a battle against those thoughts
      • there are beautiful scriptures that clarify God’s promises in helping you, like:
        • No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. 1 Cor 10:13
    • by His immense grace, our past matters to our future
    • again, we are not defined by it
      • our worth, our potential, our meaning, our purpose is not defined by our past
    • but we are shaped by it
      • had I not been witness to my parents horrific divorce
      • had I not endured a horrible marriage and my own divorce
      • had I not sinned in many, many ways especially sexually, I would have nothing to talk to you about
    • my past has shaped me, but it does not and will not define me, or my value to Jesus
      • because what defines me is my connection to God and His work of redemption
    • my past makes me run towards Jesus; reminds me daily how much I need him
      • Paul remembered his sin
        • he said he was the worst of all sinners
• how we should think about suffering
  • Suffering isn’t popular in our culture
    • and suffering is not something our culture is comfortable talking about or dealing with
    • I believe it is a mistake for us to ignore or try to distract ourselves away from our suffering
      • because once we recognize we’re suffering
        • we are given an arsenal full of ways to handle it
        • but if we deny that what we’re dealing with is a level of suffering, then we don’t have those options
    • for example,
      • when someone acknowledges the suffering of their health
        • they then can start to look for solutions; go to doctors; research; determine what’s next
      • but if never acknowledge your suffering, you can’t get through it or even learn how to manage well
    • Now if you know me at all, you know I’m not a very negative person
      • I actually am a quite positive, it’s one of my strengths actually
      • but what if suffering was not as negative as we thought
        • what if its very important
  • 1 – we have to acknowledge it; we have to face our suffering
    • There is a part of suffering that shapes us, if we face it
      • it allows us to become more aware of our need for Him
      • Jesus was no stranger to suffering
      • it allows us to partake of His suffering
  • 2 – we have to see our suffering as important; it has a purpose for God
    • yes, it’s painful
      • so is going to the gym
      • it is suffering in the moment
        • but that suffering reaps a better harvest
          • its an investment; it matters to the future
      • Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. Romans 5:3 & 4
  • I do believe in the tranformative power of prayer
    • I believe that is part of our life with God
    • communing with Him, getting to know Him, and there’s lots in the Bible about physical healing and Jesus & the apostles taking people out of their suffering
      • but there is also Jesus
        • who took the cup God has poured for Him and suffered to do God’s assignment in His life
      • but also Paul was in prison
        • and Paul even had a thorn in his side
          • we don’t know what that was, but he asked God to take it away
• how we should suffer
  • 1 – acknowledge the suffering
  • 2 – make changes according to that suffering
    • suffer = discipline
    • Big Disciplines
      • determine what God’s will is for you
      • get your life prioritized
      • do you want to get to the end and realize you were so distracted you never took the time to ask the question that mattered?
      • use the regret thing again, lets say you did it wrong…now you can go back and do it right
      • even Nietzche says “he who has a why to live can bear with almost any how”
      • …
      • Here’s how I have found God’s will
        • I used to not understand
        • 1- I worked to start learning about God’s gifts in me
        • 2- I looked at what He’s already blessed in my life
        • 3- I visualize my funeral and consider what would matter to me if those things were spoken
          • that’s actually how I came up with Wisdom, Love, Passion
          • that’s the 3 words I want on my tombstone
        • 4- I listened to what broke my heart int his world
        • 5- pursued a lot of things I thought was God’s direction
          • I took risks
          • and they were scary, but they were the right things
        • fyi this is not the steps to find the right job
          • I used to think those were one and the same
          • and they are for some people
            • but Paul talks about, if you’re stealing from others, stop…do something useful with your hands and make money so you can help others
            • he talks about it like it’s totally aside from your ministry
      • I’ve got a link to a show I’d love for you to listen to that helps me follow my
      • 3-determine your God-work
        • example of Kimberly
      • I mention this because I struggled for a long time thinking, like our society, that something isn’t valuable unless there is a money label attached to it. ie my work isn’t good enough if someone won’t pay me for it, or unless it costs money, it’s not worth desiring (that’s how we treat the earth isn’t it?)
      • But, remember Jesus talked more about money than any other thing. HE cares about how we think about money. This is some understanding that’s going to be important for my next point.
    • Small Disciplines
      • really practical
        • fill your mind with the right stuff
          • science
            • pathways
              • repetition
              • We can’t always resist or desires but we can change and reorder them based on our lives. Focus on your love of family etc above your desire to lust
              • focus on your purpose
                • Focusing on your short and long-term health goals, makes it easier to quash cravings and resist temptations.
                • In a study pages by a journal Proceedings of the national academy of sciences shows participants that focused on their goal while experiencing a craving showed activity in their
                • Prefrontal cortex the rational, decision making side of their brain. When this area of the brain is activated it pulls the breaks on the reward system (the part of the brain that tells us to do things that feel good even if it’s not good for us). Because the two areas cannot due simultaneously. The result, decreased desire for the treat.
                • This response is rather like a muscle.
              • ask yourself questions
                • carry a journal with you & make yourself answer those questions
              • carry a book with you
              • have scriptures in your wallet
              • divert your eyes
              • get really curious about God’s creation
                • watch nature shows
                • pursue the God-calling He has for you
              • talking out loud to interrupt your thoughts
              • listening to affirmations give a free audio away to listen to the scripture affirmations #dym
                • delightyourmarriage.com/thoughts
      • protect your mind
      • Why no one talks about sexual thoughts in the church?
        • I used to think no one talked about sexual thoughts because I was the only one struggling that may be partly true,
        • then I thought it was because everyone else is embarrassed and that may be partly true
        • but I think the most important is because the closer you get to Jesus the easier that struggle becomes
      • prayer and meditating on the Word
        • Story about Matt re Bible reading
          • I was at a talk not too long ago and a man, let’s call him Matt. He was a sharing his story. He had been in jail for a long time because he had almost killed his father with a hammer. They found out he was a sociopath bc he couldn’t feel thongs like empathy. He would have these violent urges. He was incredibly bright and hated Christianity with a vengance. Well, while he was in jail a man kept reading his Bible in his cell. Matt ostracized this man. He had debate after debate with this man. And the thing that bothered Matt so much was this Christian kept winning the debates. So, finally Matt decided to start reading the Bible, because he was sure if he know more, he’d be able to win the debates and defeat that Christian once and for all. Well, he ended up becoming a Christian. Now, he’s out of jail, married and has 4 children with an amazing woman. But he said he notices those violent urges and thoughts come back when he’s out of the word for a while.
        • what I do
          • I just work on memorizing one verse a day
      • redirect your thinking
        • So I’ve read a lot about redirecting your thoughts via meditation. And this had really helped me.
        • use a special motion to redirect
        • use a special trigger to redirect
        • be open with someone about the battle you’re experiencing
        • engage in safe activities
        • believe “no temptation has over taken you”
      • …
• “We must all suffer from one of two pains: the pain of discipline or the pain of regret. The difference is discipline weighs ounces while regret weighs tons.” – Jim Rohn
• my last piece of catalytic encouragement
  • we don’t know what eternity will be, but it very well may matter

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah rose.

0:19
Thanks so much for joining. I’m not sure why you clicked on this episode, if you specifically searched for how to purify your thoughts, or if you are a regular listener to the dy M podcast, and this is your normal Tuesday morning or afternoon ritual from now. So I’m not sure why you’re here. But I want you to know that if you are specifically looking for ways to purify your thoughts, maybe purify it from sexual thoughts, that’s kind of what we’re zeroing in on today. But maybe it’s purify your thoughts from worry from anxiety from stress, or fantasy, I mean, whatever it is, I think it can be applied. The reason I wanted to really focus in on sexual thoughts is because I think it’s not talked about enough. I don’t think there’s enough practical advice, especially Christian, godly advice on that. And then I think there’s just not enough practical application of it. So that’s what I’m going to try to give you today is really, to let you go away with a lot of just a huge garbage bag full of ideas and tools you can apply as soon as you need them. So that’s the plan, maybe not a garbage bag, I don’t know some big giant sack, whatever you want to visualize that as anyway, so let’s dive in and and talk about purifying your thoughts.

1:57
Now, I usually try to record these solo shows, way in advance of them actually posting. And I like to try to give myself many months of thought and consideration on topics prior to me, recording them. This time, I’m actually down to the wire I’ve gotten. I’m just not ahead like I like to be and the reason is not because I don’t know what to say it’s because I have way too many things to say so because you don’t want to sit through a three hour sermon series on how to purify your thoughts. That’s why I’ve tried to dumb it down as succinctly as possible and give you really actionable ideas. But first off, I think what we really need to talk about is the why. Because if we don’t understand why these things are happening, I don’t think we can respond to them in the way that God is asking us to respond to them. So the the question is, why do we struggle with sexual thoughts? And why does it matter? So why does it matter? I mean, first of all, I just want to start off with a story a wife was telling me about, she was talking to her husband, and she was just kind of came in conversation. So Honey, how is your relationship with God. And He was silent for a little while, he was a little hesitant to respond. And he basically described to her that he feels like he’s not very close with God. You know, he’s trying his best he’s going to church. And I know this man, he’s he’s an amazing person, who is a wonderful father and a wonderful husband. And, and, and really honorable in many, many ways. But when he confided in her was that he didn’t feel close to God because of his thought life. And because she knows some of the background, and was able to kind of figure out what he was talking about, and ask him if this is what he meant. And it was sexual thoughts. And that’s why I need to talk about this because this has been on my heart for a long time, not only from, you know, the story that I heard, but also from even over a year ago, I was inquiring on interviewing people about that and, and Reese more recently, I had a request from a listener about this topic. And so I just decided, you know, what I have, this has been my journey, I have had to struggle through my sexual thoughts and and get to a place of greater freedom now than I’ve ever been. And I think again, that that I just needed to bite the bullet and go ahead and do this. So the reason it matters is for that husband thinks that his own relationship with God is canceled out because of his thought life. And that’s why I can’t let this go on any longer. If you have struggled with sexual thoughts, the enemy is lying to you to tell you that while you’re not close with God, you’re not faithful to your wife, you’re not doing anything. The way that God is asking you to do them because you’re struggling with your thoughts and that is just not The case and that’s why it matters to talk about this. That’s why it matters to figure out the why our thought life is important. And so I want to just mention a quote, CS Lewis says mental pain is less dramatic than physical pain. But it’s more common, and also more hard to bear. The frequent attempt to conceal mental pain increases the burden. Does that make sense to you? Because when we’re physically pain in pain, you know, we can go to a doctor, we’ve broken our arm, it’s very obvious to anyone, we’ve got a cast on our arm, the pain is, is shared. But when you’re concealing pain, when you’re hiding it, it’s harder, it’s more difficult. So when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, the most important decision you’ve ever made in your life, it’s the one that puts you on a path towards what God wants not only for this life of but for the next life. A question I’ve had in my own heart many times, I wonder if you’ve had it yourself? Is why in that moment, doesn’t he just take us right, then? You know, why do we have to continue to endure this life? If we’re destined for eternity? Why does it matter? Right? And there’s plenty of responses to that. You could say, Well, God has an assignment here, or there’s people you need to be impacting and all that, okay, well, then, if I need to still be here, and still work in this world, for some reason that God has for me, Why can’t he at least erase the sin? Erase the mistakes erase the memory of what I’ve gone through? Or what I’ve seen, or what I’ve done? Why can’t he at least do that? You know, we say Jesus changes everything. Why doesn’t he do that?

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And I think sometimes, we as Christians, make the mistake of telling either new believers or people who might become believers sometime or whatever, the Jesus changes everything. And so that’s the reason to follow him. And the truth is, he does change everything. But he doesn’t take away like I said, the memories he doesn’t. Sometimes he takes people completely out of addictions. You know, I’ve just heard so many amazing stories, sometimes he does not. And sometimes it is a, a, a, like a daily discipline to not do the sinful acts that you want to do. Right? But what about thoughts? So the choices you’ve made don’t get erased from your memory and your sin and shame they get erased the the eternal effects of that sin are erased Jesus to pay the price for that. But if you’re anything like me, and many people that walk on this earth, most people in fact, they’ve had sexual sin. I might even say all I really don’t know, I’m not gonna judge everyone, but just about everyone has sexual sin in their past, whether it’s viewing pornography, whether it’s a full out addiction to pornography, and that was a lifestyle of yours for a long time, whether it was fill in the blank, you know what yours is, right? If that’s been in your past, I think there’s more than likely a battle that is going to continue in your thought life to to take those into the direction they should be and take them out of where they are tempted to go. Okay, first Corinthians 1013 says, and this is only one of many verses that give you so much hope in this area. So I don’t want to just be doom and gloom, but I want to just give you some reality. I am a very possibility thinker, I think about being positive and the hope that God gives us and He is the God of hope. It’s what it says over and over and over again, in the Bible. But if we don’t embrace the limitations and the boundaries He’s given us, that’s another so I think we have to embrace the hope, the hope of what God is giving us, right? But also embrace the boundaries. Okay, embrace where he says, Don’t go over there, you’re going to regret it. Because the truth is, you will, and there’s consequences to that. And I believe one of the biggest consequences to that is our thought life. So like I said, there are beautiful scriptures that clarify God’s promises and helping you for example, for inscriptions 1013 It says No temptation has overtaken you, except what is common to mankind, and God is faithful. He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. So, again, by his imminent grace is immense grace, our past matters to our future. We are not defined by it our worth our potential or meaning, our purpose, it is not defined by our past, how ever we are shaped by it. Had I not been a witness to my parents horrific divorce, had I not endured a horrible marriage and my own divorce had I not sinned in many ways, especially sexually, I would have nothing to talk to you about on this dy M Show. And God is using this show in this ministry to minister to so many people around the world that I’ve never met and will never meet. But he’s using it because of the past that I’ve had. So I want you to just realize whatever you’ve gone through whatever sin that God has forgiven you of recognize that there’s a purpose for you to walk the narrow road. Now, as funny. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that verse. But um, talks about the narrow is the the path and straight. I can’t remember that the verse exactly, but the, the, the reason I bring it up that that verse, basically, I’ve always known it as narrow that that the meaning of that section of the verses something like narrow is though is the way for the righteous or whatever. And, and it’s true that is but but the meaning of it behind it is more along the lines of hard or difficult is that path. And I think that’s a really great

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I think it resonates with me quite a lot for me to realize that. It matters to God that we wrestled through these things that we struggle through them. Okay, because when my pass does it, it makes me run towards Jesus. It reminds me daily, how much I need him. If you’ve read any of the the New Testament, Paul, in a lot of his writings talks about his own sin, he talks about how he’s the worst of sinners. But it’s funny because Paul was saved from this life of he was Sol before that. And if you know his story, you know, he did a lot of really horrible things, even assisting and killing other Christians if not being the one to do it himself. But he at least would rest them and gather them all up. And and after he met Jesus, His name became Paul, did he continue sending? Did he become the worst of sinners? I don’t think so I think what ended up happening is his depth of understanding of what he had done became more and more real. So he was able to acknowledge God’s gift to him more and more deeply. Okay. So so my next part on here is how we should think about the difficulties in our life, we should think about suffering, is suffering is not popular in our culture. And the reason suffering, I want to be talking about it for just a moment, is because I believe just wrestling with sexual thoughts is a form of suffering. I don’t know how many other people struggle with that maybe everyone, maybe a handful, maybe people with your specific situation, your specific history, your specific, you know, personality, who knows. But I think it is a level of suffering. And I think that’s important to acknowledge, for a couple of reasons. And I’ll go into those but first of all, sufferings not popular to talk about in our culture. And I think it’s a mistake. If we are going through suffering, for us to distract ourselves away from it and say, Oh, we’re, you know, we’re fine. Where, you know, it’s not that big of a deal. Everyone deals with this, blah, blah, blah, I don’t think so. I think it’s a suffering. Because, for example, sexual sins, it distracts you from what your focus needs to be it also makes you the enemy lies to you saying like, well, you just thought XY and Z yesterday or just a moment ago, how in the world are you going to tell your wife you love her when you were just thinking about that thing? Or how in the world are you going to be going to church and kneeling before God when you’re struggling with these thoughts, you can’t do what he wants you to do. You don’t you don’t measure up now if that’s stuff that has gone through your head in your heart, that is a suffering, I want you to call it that the reason is, is because if you don’t recognize this battle, right, that you are fighting this and in in in a way I would call it that suffering because we can look at Jesus and see that he suffered. And when I realized that I am suffering, I can say okay, you know what? God suffered on the cross For me, he suffered in every way that I’m suffering. He suffered every temptation that I suffered, and yet he did not sin. How did he respond to these things, we can look at Paul and say that he suffered he, he was a servant to Christ, but he suffered for Christ. He went to jail, he ended up being killed because I believe Paul was killed because of being a Christian, I have to double check that, but I’m pretty sure. The reason I say that is because he knew how to suffer and he knew how to suffer in a way that made God smile that pleased God, right. Because we go through this life, there’s a purpose for it, there was a purpose for our suffering, there is a purpose for our suffering. Again, Paul, in Philippians, he was in jail, he might have just been flogged, and he says, In Philippians, four, I believe, he says,

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and I will rejoice again, I say, rejoice. He tells us to rejoice in the midst of our suffering, okay. Like I said, if you don’t recognize that sexual thoughts, and battling and fighting it out, is a suffering, then you don’t have that. Almost like these all these tools at your disposal. You know, sometimes we have to say, Yeah, I’m suffering for Christ, because that makes us a face it. So I think there’s two things you need to do is, first of all, acknowledge it, and then face your suffering and allows you to become more like Jesus allows you to grow in character. But if you just say, oh, everyone goes through this, that’s not a big deal, or are trying to bat it away and just act like, No, I think it matters. And I think, you know, it matters. I think that’s why you’re listening to this because it matters. And it matters, your relationship with Jesus. Okay. So now the second piece of this is to recognize God’s purpose in that. So I said, acknowledge it is number one, number two is recognize God’s purpose in that. So there are changes that need to be made in your life, if you recognize suffering, I’m going to give you an example of health again, because that’s been something I’ve really been suffering with. And that’s something that is really shaped the way I’m looking at life nowadays. But when you find out you are, you don’t have a condition. And let’s say you have been, again, batting away for a long time, and you’re just like, No, it’s not a big deal. It’s not a big deal. And finally, it’s to a level that you’re like, I can’t ignore this anymore, you go and get checked out and find out you have a health condition. So the first thing is acknowledging it, you find out what you have. Number two is making changes, according to that suffering. Okay, so the first thing that I think you need to do, and I want to say something about the Word suffer, right? There, if you think about if you think about the way you grew up, those of us that came from a healthy home, or all of us have different things in our in our were, the way we were raised that we wish would have been different, okay, everyone’s got that baggage, right, but, but if you came from a home that taught you things in life that were helpful, you suffered, right, because as parents, as good parents, they had to give you boundaries, they had to say, there’s this way, and this way, it basically put a fence around what you’re supposed to do, right, you, you, you’re not allowed to touch the stove, it’s gonna burn you. But the child doesn’t necessarily understand that. So they had to suffer to learn that the stove was going to burn them, either they suffered by experiencing it, hopefully, the parent did not let that happen. And the parent allowed them to suffer, not being able to touch the stove, because the parent knew it was going to happen. So another way of saying that is discipline, we discipline our kids, because we love them, we want them to learn the way of the world that the stove is going to be hot. So you get a little smack on your bottom if you’re trying to touch the stove, because it’s better than actually touching the stove and getting burned. So God is the same way. I believe that our suffering is a way that He disciplines us. He teaches us what matters in life. In fact, we’re able to strip away the other things again, if thinking about a health condition, right? You have to make changes so that your health will improve, okay, you have to make big changes in your life. And God is giving you the grace to understand that because who knows what the reason is, who knows what he’s trying to do in your life. But if you don’t allow yourself to be disciplined, if you say no, no, no, you know, that must be I must be fill in the blank. You know what I’m talking about when you try to ignore God’s discipline? When we try to go around it and say No, the Bible doesn’t really say that or Oh, no, that that person must be a little whatever. Let the Holy Spirit convict you. I’m not gonna convict you on that you you’ll figure that out for yourself but but listen to the reason God allows us to be disciplined in our life allows us to suffer is because he wants to change. So here’s the practical piece. Right? That was a lot of kind of the foundational just getting you understanding why, why sexual thoughts is something that is in your life, God wants to change you, he wants you to become more like the way he wants you to become. So um it’s funny, because for a long time, probably years, I had wondered why in the world do preachers not talk about sexual thoughts? Why don’t they talk about what everyone is struggling with in the pulpit. And

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so I came to a couple of conclusions. One, I thought I was probably the only one I was the only one that had that secret sin of pornography, addiction when I was young. Maybe I was the only one that struggled with that. And then as I as I grew up and kind of got out of the by God’s grace, I got out of pornography addiction, you can actually go back to a previous episode where we talk about porn addiction for women, and it’ll give you a lot of insight. But um, anyway, you can go back and search on the dym website, delight your marriage.com. And you can search for women battling sexual addiction, I think is the title. Okay, so the anyway, um, so that’s what I thought I thought that people either didn’t struggle with it. And as I got older, I decided, well, it’s that they, they’re just embarrassed to talk about it. And I think now I’m to the place that I really don’t know if everyone struggles with it or not, I’m assuming you at least have some experience with it, because you’re listening to this, this podcast. But if you don’t, you know, thank God for that. I assume most people do, if not everyone, to at least a degree. But the the other thing that I’ve recognized now in almost like this later stage of understanding this battle, is that the things that you learn in the Bible, the things that you learn through church, and, and through those different disciplines prayer, your thought life becomes purified slowly. But it does. And so I think it’s very interesting, because, again, I used to think that they’re just avoiding the topic. They’re just embarrassed to talk about it. But I think now I’m getting to the place of, maybe there’s a level of that. But maybe it’s also that these things that they do teach the disciplines they do encourage, are going to get you to that pure thought life. So let me again, let me talk about this practically. So I think what you need to do, the big discipline that God is asking you to do, I believe that if you’re suffering in this way, this is the biggest thing is to find out what God’s will is for your life. To find out why you are here again, that why question why? Even Nietzche philosopher, he says, He who has a why to live, can bear with almost any how. And I think the why is important, because as we start to talk about a little more, you know, the smaller disciplines, this big discipline is to figure out what God is doing in your life, what he wants to do through you. And I’m not just I’m not saying that you need to go start a podcast, I’m not saying that’s your, your why or whatever. I’m not saying also that you need to go become a pastor or do ministry work necessarily. That might be it, who knows, I don’t know what your journey is, and what God’s asking you to do in this life. But I do believe that he does have a will for us. And I believe that there is a part of our life that he has wants us to delegate for work for his work purposes. So this is what I’ve kind of figured out my process of figuring out God’s will for me. It’s, it has been quite a long process, I’m still learning it. But I am more confident in the way I see God’s will for me than I ever have in my life. And so

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I don’t say that with I’m more of a I’m more of a skeptic in that I don’t just say things about spiritual stuff that I don’t mean, I mean, I have in the past, I feel like I’ve made mistakes doing that in the past. And I think now I’m to the place of saying, I’m not going to say God told me anything. Or I try not to because I’m not really sure but I’m I’m to the point right now of understanding God’s will for my life that I can almost say, I’m confident that this is God’s will for my life. And that was something I actually spent a lot of time talking to mentors and asking people about what that could be and just learning through so this is this was my process, right? I’ll just kind of give you a little bit of a process just to understand how I worked through it. Maybe your journey will look somewhat similar. I don’t know but what I did is I started learning about God’s gifts in me the things that he’s grown me to do and and strengthened in me and so I talked a little bit about this before but if you haven’t done this test, it’s called strength finder dot I don’t think it’s shrink down. And I’ll put it in the show notes about strength strength finder, 2.0. So little $15 book, but it it actually has this test that you go through. And you can figure out your strengths. But that’s a really brilliant resource to find that out, but the you know, the other thing a different personality tests to help and you know, we’ve talked about a lot of them on the show before, but really understand what God has put in you who you are, also understand what he has done in your life. Again, I went through my history a little bit, and that has brought me to where I am now, understanding the family of origin, he placed me in the particular ethnic variety, I am the particular friends I’ve had that particular community, he’s placed me in that particular century, he’s placed me within I mean, what kind of undertaking it all holistic, but understanding those things. The third thing, I think, to think about is what hurt like what bothers you the most what, what things like you really can’t stand when you see something happening, whether it’s a friend going through a hard time, whether it’s homeless people, whether it’s people in third world nations, whether it’s the the earth, and cherishing our creation that God has given us, whatever, you know, really is deep in your heart that God has given you. And those passions grow as you begin to pursue them. But that’s the thing, you’ve got to pick some, and you got to start pursuing them. Because it’s only when you start pursuing them, do you get a chance to see what God is pruning, and what God is blessing. But if you don’t start pursuing those gifts, those passions, those things that you feel that God wants you to do, you won’t get a chance to actually prune. Does that make sense? Like pruning means, you know, if you have a tree, I’m not a farmer. So I, I’m mostly going off of what I’ve heard other people say, describe it as, but if you’ve got to, you first have to plant the tree, right, the tree grows, and then there’s branches all over the place, right? So then the, the wise farmer cuts away some of the branches so that the energy that was expended on those branches, goes back into the tree and makes it stronger in the ways that it should be growing. So that’s what God does, as he prunes us, He makes us stronger in the ways we should be growing. Okay, so then, again, that’s kind of the process is is, is all of that alongside just a consistent asking God, what His will is, and, and desiring for him to lead me and guide me in the ways he wants me to go. The other thing I do is, I do listen to a lot of books on tape, or an audio book, I’ve told you that before, but two books in my life are very, very good for this area of figuring out what God’s will is, I believe, both of them are secular, but

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but both of them have wonderful, spiritual, godly principles within them. So the first one is Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I read that many years ago, but since I read that I actually, there’s a part of it, where it asks you to visualize your own funeral. And to me, that’s helpful. Because if you think about the, it goes through this very clearly. So you can pick up the book and go through this, but it goes through, you know, think about your spouse up there, what would you want them to say? Think about someone from church, what would you want them to say someone from your work? What would you want them to say for your child? Or someone that you’ve poured into? Who What would you want them to say? And, and then, I can’t remember if this is included in the book or not. But I would add to that, obviously, like, I, what I visualize quite a lot, and I try to write this out, at least every year, is when I visualize my meeting Jesus, and what would I want him to say of my life? What would I want him to say of this season, in my life of that particular season I’m in. And so that that is vital to me to have that that vision of, of what what matters what’s important, because like I said, this suffering of sexual thoughts, when you have a why you can bear with almost any how. Okay, so the second book I want to really recommend is a book, and this is by a Christian, but I didn’t know it. I’ve read his book twice. Because it’s so so phenomenal in our, in our distraction obsessed culture, where we’re flitting from one thing to the next and we’re moving from one thing to the next as quickly as as you can, as quickly as you can scroll on your phone, you’re you’re totally transferring your thoughts all over the place and someone calls you and texts you and and then someone says hello on the street. You just I mean, it’s a constant barrage of stuff. How do you focus? How do you figure out what really really matters. So that’s what this book is called essentialism. And like I said, this, this gentleman is a Christian and I have a podcast, I’m going to link to the show notes. But I really, if you don’t do anything from this conversation, I really hope that you will listen to that podcast because it’s brilliant. I’ve listened to it a few times this this interview with this man, but he really talks about, you know, essentialism, the book, The tagline is the undisciplined? Well, I can’t remember the tagline is it’s it’s going from the undisciplined pursuit of more to the disciplined pursuit of less. And then he goes on in this podcast, again, where he really allows us to see into his faith life, which the book does not go into. But in this podcast, he talks about, it’s really the disciplined pursuit of God’s will. And so it’s stripping away the things that don’t matter. And putting in or, or focusing, I would say, more like focusing in on what really does matter, because however long you’ve lived in this life, there are certain things that you know, matter. And there are certain things you know, do not. And I think it’s a discipline pursuit, I truly think it’s a discipline, it’s a suffering, it’s a way that we have to strip away and say, that is not what’s most important here. That is not what’s most important here. And like I said, I have a vision, I have a vision statement, which is basically again, my description of what it will be like meeting Jesus at the end of it all. But then I also extrapolate that into that mission statement that’s a little bit more like, these particular roles in my my family, so or in the people that I love, like my husband, I want him to say this of me, my kids, I want them to say this with me. And the reason that’s helpful, not that I want you to be all morbid and imagine your funeral it the reason it’s helpful, is it, it puts things in perspective. It’s like if my house was a mess for most of the kids lives, but they knew I loved them. And they they saw me exhibit good character and all that. You know, house is a mess might not be the best example. But you understand what I mean? Like, ultimately, what matters? Did I have the most expensive clothes and the best makeup? Or? Or did I make someone feel loved? Did I show them the path towards Jesus, what really matters. And if you don’t understand that you can’t truly know how to or you won’t have the why to say I need to suffer this, I need to say that my thoughts are going to matter, okay. All that that’s the big discipline, figuring out your why and disciplining yourself towards that what I’ve done now, after listening to that podcast, that interview that I’m going to link

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what I’ve done since then, is now every four or five months, something like that, I get quiet and and I pray through and just try to be reflective on what matters most of my life. And I really boil it down to the three main focuses in my life. And the thing that I’ve focused on right now, for the next few months are my main focus is my health, because that undermines everything else, if that goes away, that’s the most vital thing that I have to really, really focus on. The second thing obviously, will maybe obvious or not, but marriage and family and I have little goals for each of those what what really, I want to focus on for those, but it’s very limited, because I know that if I don’t really focus on my health thing, the rest is undermined. The third piece is the third piece is work. So that’s my you all know that I have a full time job and I do dy M on the side. But my work, it’s I’m pretty ambitious girl, I really like to goal set and all that stuff. But right now for these next this season of my life is not focused on being ambitious in those other areas. I’m not, you know, doing new products or new ideas for dy M, I’m really trying to hold off on those. I’ve got a lot of really good new ideas, but I want to hold off on those and really focus on just being consistent. Just what did I promise the audience? What am I going to deliver to the audience these and trying to follow God in that, but also not putting a whole lot of pressure on myself because I could be making mistakes. And I’m just going to go with what I what I think I know to do next. Okay. That’s enough of the big disciplines. I really hope that that’s, I gave you enough of a reason to do that. Let’s talk about the small, practical disciplines of how do you change your thoughts? Okay, so here’s one thing that’s really, really great is to understand the science of the brain a little bit. One thing about the brain is your brain basically makes pathways the way you think is basically the way you think. You can think about this when you have friends. And you just you kind of know how they’re gonna react to certain situations because you’ve seen them react to that before. And you know, we all intuitively know that we think a certain way. And it’s hard for us to change our thinking, but we can change it because what they’ve said that what they found in science is and this is helpful for you, if you’re struggling with thoughts, understand the science of the brain. It’s a huge field. There’s a little lot to it. But pathways, your brain makes pathways. And the way it’s almost like thinking about cars on a street, right? The bigger streets are, the more and more cars zip through there all the time, right? Those big big highways, there’s so many cars going through, but then you you start doing a new path, you start that dirt road, and then more cars start going through that dirt road and gets bigger and wider and more well worn. And pretty soon it’s going to get paved, and then there’s, you know, it just becomes a bigger, bigger place. So that’s what you have to do is start new pathways, new pathways of thought. And it’s going to have to start with you being intentional about your thoughts. Okay, we’re going to talk more and more about that in just a minute. But the other thing that scientifically really backs up what I was just talking about, with your goals and your life focus is that I think I have the notes here, I don’t see it pulling up, right. So I Oh, here it is, okay, so the prefrontal cortex is the rational decision making side of the brain, okay, when this area of the brain is activated, it pulls the brakes on the reward system, part of the brain that tells us to do the things that feel good. Okay. So when you are in the process of being tempted to do something that feels good, if you activate that prefrontal cortex, it will actually stop the rest of your brain that’s like, yes, let’s do the feel good. Option, right? Let’s even just even if it’s a fantasy, right, you know that God wants you to be faithful to your wife and your thoughts. That’s what God talks about. Jesus talks about when you’re even lusting after a woman, you’re having adultery with her. So he wants you to do this. So So think about your life purpose, what matters most, and that’ll even Scientifically speaking, pull the brakes on the other, the other piece of that, okay, so the other, here’s another practical one. Ask yourself questions. Right. I love the quote, someone brought on that podcast a while ago that says, We are the, the something like the now that I can’t think of it something like the Oh, the quality of our life is determined by the quality of our questions. I just love that. Because if you’re asking yourself negative questions, like, Oh, why is this so hard? Or why do I have to get to just these these negative things? I mean, maybe that’ll give you a positive answer. You never know. But, but I prefer questions that are like, for example, when I wake up with not a lot of energy, you know, there, I’m going to take that back. Because sometimes questions about why is helpful, because then you can start to get to the root of it and, and figure that out. Okay, but, but

37:39
when I don’t have enough energy, I’ll ask the question, how do I make myself more energetic right now? And then my mind starts giving me answers. So if you think about, you know, let’s say you’re tempted by a thought and and then suddenly come up with a question, you might even need to have some questions at your disposal that you’ve already thought about that you can start asking yourself like, I wonder what such and such whatever? Just some some questions, how can I be more a person of character right now? How can I be more faithful to God right now, those can be questions that will help you in those moments of potential temptation or your thought life is going away. The other thing I really love is just developing and this goes along with it. Just develop curiosity. Curiosity is vital. It’s so so helpful for you to develop a curious mind, because God has given us this amazing, amazing world. And there is nature everywhere that just, it can inspire you and give you so much. And if you develop curiosity, Curiosity is really an act of the will. Children are curious. Yes, that’s as we’re all naturally curious. So you have to just apply your will to it. I was walking down the street, I think it was yesterday, the day before. And there was this giant machine I had never seen before. And it was just full of so many different gears and this and that, and just things that just totally blew my mind. And I was just, I just sat there or stood there, uh, totally stopped where I was going and just watch looked at this machine to try to figure out what the heck does it do? What’s its purpose? How does it work? What So anyway, this this giant, crazy looking machine ends up it digs up the the asphalt and, and transfers it on a conveyor belt all the way up this big like, neck looking thing like a giraffe’s neck, you know, all the way up and then it dumps it into this other big machine and like I had never seen anything like that. But because I spent the time doing it. My mind just started thinking about all these new ideas that I had never known about and you can that’s what the gift of curiosity can give you develop that gift. The other one I just mentioned is get in nature I would say get in nature every single day. God made us to live in In a garden, that’s how Adam and Eve were created. Nature is vital for our spirits to grow. And and I’m not just saying get in your backyard. I mean, yes, that’s great. But get around new types of nature get around water and ocean and rivers and valleys and mountains like understand what God’s imminence is, I mean, get fresh insight. I mean, you can not like when you are so transfixed by God’s beauty that he’s created in the world sexual thoughts. I mean, they go by the wayside, if you have been a listener or have seen the delight your marriage website, you probably know that I don’t use images of people at all, just about ever, when I first started out, I made that change. But just about ever, I almost always do natural scenes. The reason is, is because it’s so easy for us to when we’re thinking about a topic, and then all of a sudden, we see a picture of someone we’re like, you know, easy for our mind to go put two and two together, right? I don’t want you to do that. Because sexual intimacy in marriage is holy and good. So don’t put two and two together with those images. Instead, think about the beauty and the righteousness and the holiness of a mountain range, or have a sunset or of the oceans, you know, crashing on the waves like, that is the holiness that God wants for your marriage for your sexual intimacy. So, um, so yes, so So anyway, that’s an aside. Another thing you can do is carry a book with you, I, my husband laughs laughs at me all the time. Because often I’ll have like two or three books with me, when I don’t even get a chance to read while we’re out. But just in case, sometimes there’s times that you’re waiting, sometimes you’re sitting there, you’re trying to enjoy the peace, somebody walks by with the most ridiculous thing on and you just, you know, it’s a temptation, right? So I just try to always have something that I that will provoke new thoughts, new ideas, something that’s, that’s different than than the pathway that, you know, the temptation that it wants to go in the wrong spot, right. The other thing is, if you carry around a cellphone, you have got scriptures in your pocket. I’ve got the the YouTube, what is it called, it’s called YouVersion. That’s it, I’ll have that on the I’ll have that app

42:16
on the show notes as well, but you version you can download, you can download the Bible on your phone. And the cool thing about it is I often have my phone in airplane mode, especially when I do my morning ritual, where I spend time with Jesus and go running and stuff. I always have my phone in airplane mode. And that helps me to not think about if someone gets is going to text me or call me or any of that. Another thing you can do is, you know, for emergencies, you could there’s different you could look all this up, but you could do Do Not Disturb settings. And anyway, um, it’s just worthwhile to get some of that distraction out of your head. But also use your phone as a tool, to to look up scripture. To read through scripture, I just love that. Another thing that is just a practical, you know, when people are walking down the street or your your, there’s joggers, or whatever, there’s a little way of talking about you called bounce your eyes. So if your eyes land on something, it shouldn’t just bounce it off to the next thing, almost if you think about like a ball bouncing from one area to the next bounce, the bounce the bounce, that’s what you want to do with your eyes. The other thing is talking out loud, let’s say you’re by yourself. And these thoughts just keep happening, I would say start talking out loud. Because when you start speaking, your thoughts get interrupted by your words. So you want to say things, affirmations that are godly, God oriented. But there could be all sorts of kinds of affirmations. Like, for example, let’s say you are having some lustful thoughts, some concerns and, and so you can say I am faithful to my wife, I am attracted to my husband, I love my kids, whatever, like it doesn’t even have to do, you don’t necessarily have to make it have anything to do with the thoughts that you’re struggling with. But just a spoken word will interrupt that. The other thing I want to give that’s very, very practical for you. And this is my free gift to you. I’ve spent some time and I have recorded in a calming soothing way. Some scriptures that I want you to meditate on because the word of God is living and active. That sort of says it says that it’s it’s effective. And it’s you know, now I can’t think of the scripture I was just trying to quote but you understand what I mean? It is powerful. So you need to reprogram your thought life to realize that with Jesus gift, you are holy, you are righteous, you are God’s child. And so these affirmations I like I said it’s a free thing. You can download it you can have it on your phone whenever, you know I would say you want to just listen to this maybe every day for a season, especially if you’re really struggling with this but just get it in your heart to realize that this is what God thinks of you. And if you love audio like I do, this is the the best thing for you to just download it, listen to it over and over and over again, to get that deep in your heart that this is what God thinks of you. Okay? You are not what the enemy is lying to you about, but really, as speak the affirmations over yourself, listen to the word. Okay?

45:21
The other thing, and I’m going to not talk about this too much, because we talk about it on next week’s episode, I actually have this wonderful couple, a Jewish couple who talk about how they guard their mind how they have certain things that make sure that they guard their mind. And I want to mention that, just a little advice about that, because obviously, Judaism is different than Christianity, but that’s our heritage. That’s the, that’s the, the culture that Jesus was born into, and that he was raised into. And that’s the culture that Paul is speaking about when he’s talking in the Bible. So it’s very helpful to understand their culture, I believe, for us to understand the Bible. But in addition to that, when we hear all these rules, and all these guidance, and all this stuff, we have to do realize that that’s not the way that we get to heaven. It’s not, but what it is, is, it’s a way to develop virtue, I think it’s a way to develop character that is going to matter in the next life. Okay. So here’s my kind of last encouragement to you. I really like this other quote, by Jim Rohn. And he says, We must all suffer from one of two panes, the pain of discipline, or the pain of regret, the difference is discipline weighs ounces, while regret weighs tons. So there’s this wonderful book, I’ve listened to parts of it, it’s called after you believe. And basically, I don’t know enough about heaven, to really know how to tell you what it’s going to be like, I like thinking about it. But I don’t really know one thing he really does is make the case that when we get to heaven, it’s not a place to go. Sing to Jesus all day long, though, that’s going to be part of it. But it really is about, or it could be part of it. It’s really about our next assignment, that it’s almost as though we were in this life at 90 years at the most. And we were preparing our character, ourselves, the inner spirit, our soul, whatever, however you want to say it, we are preparing that being to for eternity. So in eternity, it’s like God has a new assignment for us. And that’s a 1000s and 1000s of years, it’s a new heaven and new earth. And again, there’s so many verses that really, I heard it, you know, I listened to his side of the story, it seems so many verses to support that. And what I really try to think about when I think when I hear new ideas like that is it says in the Bible, you’ll know them by their fruit. And I think about that with thoughts too. I think about a thought like that, to think that what I’m doing now, the way I respond to the suffering I experience now is going to matter in eternity. When I think that it is mattering to Jesus, there’s a purpose, there’s a purpose to the suffering I am experiencing, it becomes much easier to experience it. So I want to leave you with that encouragement, is that if you dig in, and you do this work, this discipline, it is not easy. There’s too many verses in the Bible I wish I could go into I don’t have time. But there’s even verses that said, the suffering allows us to understand to almost like to empathize with our Lord and Savior, Jesus, suffering matters, and having the discipline beforehand. So you don’t again, either suffering for the pain of discipline or the pain of regret I want. I don’t know what heaven is going to be like, I don’t know what eternity is going to be like. But what if this moment, you can say, wow, it matters to God. Like I said, I’m not smart enough to understand that stuff. I haven’t researched it enough. I don’t know. But it could. And to me, that motivates me. So when again, the fruit, the fruit of that thought, for me is motivation. It’s inspiration. It makes me think, oh my goodness, what is God wanting me to do in this life? Because who knows what he wants to do in eternity? I have no idea but I’m gonna try my darndest to walk that narrow, hard road for a measly 80 years because I’m going to have an eternity, that counts that matters. I don’t know what it’s gonna be like, but maybe, maybe these little 8090 years of suffering, whatever it might have been.

49:49
It’s gonna make a difference. So I’ll leave you with that. I hope you have a lot to ponder and consider through this episode. But I do want to leave you a free gift. It’s called the purity meditation. I mentioned it, but I put it together. It’s basically just scripture. And then affirmations based on that scripture, all on this kind of beautiful, mellow music. And I just think that if you like audio, which I imagine you do, since you’re listening, this could be something that would really bless you, as you just allow the Word of God to resonate in your heart and your thoughts over and over and over again. Go to delight your marriage.com/ 104 to get that free download. Just a gift from me to you. I hope it’ll bless you. Alright, I’m praying for you and your marriage. I’ll talk to you on Tuesday.

50:57
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

If you have had sexual sin in your marriage, it’s really hard to figure out who to talk to. Not everyone is safe. Today, Jen gets it. Her marriage suffered greatly when her husband’s pornography addiction was revealed. She helps us understand what we need in the midst of the crisis. Who we should be sharing our heart to (and who we shouldn’t). Listen in for hope and healing in this discussion.

Find out more about Jen Ferguson at pureeyescleanheart.com

You’ll Discover:

• That you are not alone in dealing with porn addiction in your marriage.
• The real reason men escape into pornography…(spoiler alert: it’s not your extra 20lbs!)
  • The world will lie to us and say we’re not x enough, that’s why our husband’s are addicted, but that’s only because they want to sell you something.
• How to overcome shame.
• What can you do to share your pain?

Scripture/Quote:

• Romans 15:13
  • May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
• Galatians 6:2
  • Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ

Resources:

• Time article about how negative porn is. It’s a helpful article (I just disagree with the first sentence).
• Pure Eyes, Clean Heart, this is Jen’s book and she walks you through the heartache and healing process she went through as a result of her husband’s porn addiction. Rest assured dear wife, you are not alone.
• Here are the links to our previous conversation about Jen’s story and heart for marriage: 67: Fixing a Porn Addiction and 68: Intimacy After Heartbreak

Tweetables:

• It’s very hard to access compassion for your husband when you’re having to jump over this wall of hurt and anger.
• Marriage is about intimacy and is a reflection of our intimacy with Jesus.
• How can you have true intimacy when there’s blackness separating you two?
• What does a safe outlet look like?
• It is not an option for me to carry this alone.
• Let’s be really, really real with God.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah rose.

0:19
Thanks so much for joining us as belah rose, and I’m grateful that you’re here on the podcast with me. If you have gone through anything in your marriage that any way resembles a porn addiction, whether it’s adultery, whether it was your husband having wandering eyes, whether it’s yourself just feeling kind of insecure in a in a, you know, a culture that pretends like perfect bodies is the most important thing that we should all aspire to. I think today’s conversation is going to be really important, because we’re talking about sharing the pain. And it’s painful to find out about a sex addiction of our spouse, it’s so painful, and it feels incredibly isolating, it feels like we’re the only ones going through it. And because there’s all this shame around it, especially in Christianity. You know, it feels like we have to retreat from our Christian friends, our Christian circles, our people at church, they must not understand what I’m going through. And I want to just say the enemy wants you to feel isolated. He wants you to feel alone. He wants you to feel like this is a secret you can’t share with anybody. But that’s a lie. Because God uses people to help us to get free from the strongholds in our minds. And so today, I have a phenomenal conversation with Jen Ferguson, she was actually on the podcast before. But she’s got an amazing story. She has been there. She has experienced the betrayal and the heartache from her husband’s porn addiction. And she talks about how she shared how she talked about it, how she got healing, through prayer, through conversations with others through counseling, counseling, just an FYI, I think is huge. It’s so important. I have done counseling many times, there are always times where we can be helped by someone to talk through what’s going on in our hearts, what’s going on in our minds, directing us closer to Jesus. So I just want to kind of give that as my caveat, like, counseling is so vital. But that’s not the only thing. There’s plenty of other ways that God heals us through people. But I just wanted to give a plug for counseling, because God can really teach people through through it. Alright, well, let’s dive in to our conversation with Jen and and let’s hear how God can give us hope, even when we’re in the midst of this significant battle

3:22
All right, well, welcome back. Thank you so much for joining me on the delight your marriage Podcast. I’m really excited. I’ve got Jen Ferguson with me. Hi, Jenny. Welcome. I’m so glad to have you back. So Jen, and I talked months ago, but it was a wonderful episode. Episode You can are in, you can either go to Episode 67, or 68, to hear her story about really the pain that happened in her marriage. And that’s basically what we’re going to be diving into more is really sharing your pain? And can you kind of Jen, talk a little bit for those that haven’t heard the episode yet. Or your previous episodes? What just a little bit about your story, and then we’re going to dive more into how you process that and how you heal from that. Sure,

4:15
um, for many, many years, since my husband was in junior high, until about probably four years ago or so. He was addicted to pornography. And I happened to catch him every single time except for one time when he actually confessed to me, which was a huge breakthrough in our marriage. But I really struggled with what is I didn’t even know that looking at porn could be an addiction. So we started there kind of in my naive place, moving to Okay, well, now I’ve caught you, you should be ashamed of yourself and therefore never do it again to come into the realization that this is a really powerful addiction that the enemy is using to destroy my marriage history and so because of my own baggage, I thought the answer was to fix the problem and control them and make all these rules so that he couldn’t do it anymore. And instead of really seeking God and allowing God to change His heart, and so the whole process, and that’s what our book is about is about how did I let go of control so that God could really move not only in Craig, but also heal all the things in me, that resulted from the porn addiction, but even from my own past of needing to control and have power and make these kind of false safety nets for myself.

5:37
Mm hmm. Yeah. And, and there, I’m so grateful that you are willing to be brave and stand up and share this story and this hardship, because, as infrequently as people talk about this, it is so rampant in our society. I mean, have you have you seen like, in your interactions with people, as you’ve, you know, went for it and published his book? And have you seen like women coming out of the woodwork telling you about their stories?

6:04
Oh, yeah. And, and it’s really amazing. I’ve spoken with people on the phone or via email from all over the world. And what breaks my heart the most is that they don’t have anyone or don’t know of anyone can share their pain and relate. And so they end up calling me someone who, or you know, finding me on Facebook or whatever, which I love. Because I mean, the whole reason or as to tell this story, so that people did not, don’t feel isolated that they know that this is a problem that so many people face. But the more we talk about it, the more Satan’s stronghold of shame evaporates. And and so you know, it just kind of fostering this idea that porn addiction is not something that we can keep hidden under a rock, whether we’re the addicted or the one married to the addicted, right? Yes.

7:01
Yes, I love that porn addiction is not something we can keep under a rock and assume it’s going to go away. It just it’s not. And, and in the same way, whether you’re the one the victim of the porn addiction, you know, if you’re receiving that, like your, your husband’s addicted, your wife’s addict or something like that, or you’re the person that is addicted yourself. And you know, it’s interesting. I’ve been reading a lot about habits recently. And it’s I I, you know, it’s just kind of a, something I’m really interested in. So I’ve been reading a lot about habits. And there’s a habit called better than before. I mean, there’s a book called better than before, and and Gretchen Rubin talks about how there’s basically two kinds of people, there’s the moderator kind, and there’s the abstainer kind of person, and the moderator is like, I could have one piece of chocolate a day and I’d be fine. And the abstainers, like, if I’m going to have any chocolate, I’m going to have the whole bar or eight, right? Or I’m not going to have any right chocolate at all. And it’s funny, because I think in our society, the society is pushing on us that porn is okay. And it’s something you can do in moderation. And that’s okay. We can, you know, and that’s just a healthy part of your sexuality or norm and are normal. Yeah. And I think it’s absolutely, I mean, obviously, as Christians, we believe that it’s the abstain or like, you have to abstain. There’s really no option there. Right? Um, yeah, go ahead. Wine.

8:41
What’s really great, though, is like near the Time magazine a few weeks ago, wrote a whole article about the dangers of porn. So more and more secular psychiatrist scientists, psychologists are saying that pornography is bad, not just because it’s spiritual, take the spiritual out of it. It is wrecking the brains of our children and our I mean, men and women, it is changing the chemical composition of their brain. And that addiction has that. I mean, it’s a power to grow and grow and grow and you have to abstain from porn, or you will continue to escalate. It doesn’t just magically get better.

9:18
Huh, that is so good. That is so, so helpful. You have to abstain or it’s going to get bigger. It’s not it doesn’t just stay the same. It’s it’s a it’s a monster that wants to be fed over and over and over again. You have to starve it right? You have to starve, right? That’s really good. I’m going to link to that. I’m going to find that article link to it in the show notes. Thank you for that. Because I’d really like to look into that more. Um, so Okay, so, again, we’re talking about the wife that either either she herself is struggling with porn and I think I’ve read somewhere that it’s something like a third of women. Either are I think actively struggling so that’s not including the women that have struggled in the past with porn. And then secondly, we’re also talking about the wife that is dealing with a husband that struggling or maybe he’s struggled in the past. So, we’re talking about sharing our pain in this arena. I mean, how does a wife start to even think of sharing it? I mean, there’s so much around it, there’s so much shame, like you said, How does she even begin to, to open up?

10:25
I think, um, you know, there’s so many things that go through your mind when you have a pain like this. And honestly, you know, this was, gosh, when our first year of marriage and where we were coming up on 16 years, so 16 years ago, I knew nobody that talked about porn. So I thought that my only option was to just deal with this by myself. And it wasn’t until a few years later, when my husband became suicidal, that I had to reach out because it was like, now I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have two babies, and a husband and I, it was, he was like, My Cup is over. I couldn’t keep it contained anymore, the lid flew off, you know, is out of the bag. And so I started with his parents, because his dad was a priest. And I was like, you know, oh, my gosh, you know, um, and so I wondered if I had taken if I had not let it get to that point inside me, where it took something as radical as you know, suicidal thoughts and words coming out of my husband’s mouth, had, I been able to address some of that pain from the beginning, because, I mean, I took my pain to God, in a way, like, here’s my pain, Lord, I really need you to fix this. But because it, I’m on my own issues with control, I thought giving it to him. And then I would just take it back and start figuring out what I needed to do, right, instead of really listening to him about to tell me about what this addiction meant and everything else. And so I think when you you, this bomb drops in your lap, if you if you catch your husband, or if he come to you and confesses or whatever. It’s really important, twofold for you to be able to communicate to your husband, this is a big deal. This is this is wrecking my heart. And I need to be able to talk to someone who’s safe about this. Because it is his pain, too. So it’s like you don’t want to go and, quote unquote, out him or uncover Him, you know, he’s probably carrying a whole lot of shame. And then a lot of honestly, a lot of men that are addicted are also pastors. So for it to get out in the wrong way through and we know that churches are breeding grounds for gossip, it can just be bad news. But I think communicating to your spouse and say, I cannot carry this alone. I want to be with you. And I want to work with you on this. But I also need a safe outlet. And then kind of talking with him. What did the safe outlet look like? I’m in this situation? Do I need to go to a counselor who understands what it’s like to deal with sexual addiction or to be married to someone who’s, you know, sexually addicted? Is there a close friend or couple, a couple would be awesome, so that you have a team of people working with you, um, but really just kind of sit down and say, I need this. This is a you know, this is a requirement for me to be safe. Let’s brainstorm some people that we can both trust. And because and I also feel like it’s so important to pray and ask God who is safe in this situation? Because there could be somebody that you think is personally is perfectly safe. And given any other topic. They would be awesome and amazing for you. But right, but that’s right. If they’re in it with porn, and they’re not ready to acknowledge it, or if I’m, you know, they, if their husband is addicted, and they’re not ready to acknowledge it, or they’d have no experience and they think, right, this is not a big deal, dude, oh, man, do this, that is not going to be helpful or right and even set you back further, because then you walk away thinking I really am alone.

14:08
Right, right. Or the woman that like you said, is unaware or doesn’t even realize it’s this huge epistemic issue and she might be horrified and not even know right to do it just just, again, make you feel more and more isolated more and more shame, right. Totally agree. Okay, so. So I think the first step is really having that conversation with your husband, to try to figure out who’s a safe person that I can talk to about this that we can talk to about this,

14:43
right.

14:45
And it sounds like, you know, I remember a a dear wife that I love very much as I was just getting to know her really early on in our friendship Share that her husband was struggling with this in a group setting. And, and it was really hard to know how to respond. Because if it were just she and I talking, I would really like just hold her and, you know, have the opportunity to really figure this thing out and figure out resource and all this kind of stuff. But kind of like you said, it sounded unstead, unfortunately, like outing him. And I think there was a lot of difficulty that, you know, she was obviously hurting, right, you know, and so that was her response was to, to do this. So I think that’s, that’s, that’s like an easy, like, knee jerk reaction is to run out and get help. Tell whoever you need to as long as you, you know, find someone to help you. But it’s a little harder to say, this is the person that’s hurting me. And I’m going to go to him and submit myself to him and say, can I talk to people about this? Right, right,

15:55
right. And I think you know, and that’s part of the eye, that’s where kind of boundaries come in, because he could say, Whoa, no, there’s no way or this is not a big deal, you shouldn’t be, you don’t need to talk to anybody in minimizing your feelings. And so I think in that, when you say, I need to go to counseling for this, like, it is not an option for me to be alone in this. You, we have to come up with a way out. And so what is great about counseling, is they’re not going to tell anybody about what’s happening, you know, so I think looking for, even if you can’t tell your best friend at this moment, you can still find a place that will, you know, honor your husband’s wishes at that time, when I’m completely sacrificing what you need.

16:52
Right. I think that’s good. And I think also, it sounds like Jen, being clear about what you need is very important.

17:00
Yes, yes. And communicating that clearly. Right, because you do have needs in this situation, and your needs are valid, and but with anybody that’s addicted to something that they, you know, porn, it’s kind of like a security blanket. And so when you say to your spouse, this cannot be a part of our marriage. Like we have to bear this out and and not do this anymore, it kind of like you’re ripping away their security blanket, because they’re going this porn, the porn is filling a need for them in a very unhealthy way. But this is how they’re getting their needs met. And to be. It’s like anybody that has a drug addiction or an alcohol addiction. They’re the reason why they have that addiction. And so, um, you know, they’re going to need support in this process as well. So I think if you do the counseling, I’m, and I’m not in, you know, Craig went to counseling, and it was not a good experience. And we wrote about that in our book. So it’s so important, really, just as you’re praying for who it’s their friends that you want to share it with, paying for about that counselor and making sure that they have a good understanding of what porn addiction or sexual addiction is about. Because not all counselors are aware of that.

18:18
Huh, that’s interesting. Okay, well, let me just backtrack for a second and ask you about when you said, porn is like a security blanket. And they’re getting their needs met, what kind of needs are you talking about? And what how is porn, like, helping them go through life.

18:37
But in my husband’s example, hit he, when things were overwhelming in real life, and he didn’t have the coping skill or the capacity to deal with that he would escape into this fantasy world where he could have control, he could feel like a man without actually having to be one. It was just a complete disconnect from operating in real life. And obviously, it’s fake, like, it’s a feel good, you feel good for, you know, however long you’re engaging in it, and then you put it down and you’ve had that release, you know, the hormone release, you get the high, you get the rash, but then you just, it’s like a sugar crash, right? And then it’s like, oh, my gosh, what have I just done? Um, because you at least with Craig Craig was a Christian when he was doing all this and he could feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but, and he couldn’t, like it wasn’t enough at that time to convince him that there was another way to, to get his needs met, to actually get real help to rely on God to help him through whatever part of his reality was too much. And, and I think, you know, also Craig grew up to be very independent, and didn’t know how to articulate his needs, because he was afraid that they wouldn’t get met. So instead of asking real people are asking me Hey, this I’m feeling X, could you please do why? It was? Well, I’m just gonna take this need and give it to someone who can’t hurt me and get this temporary fix. You know so basically with near to asking your spouse not to use porn, you’re taking away that temporary fix and that go to where you find relief.

20:25
Yeah, yeah and I like also how you’re, we’re talking about it as an addiction because truly chemicals that are released in the porn experience does literally make the brain addicted to the pornography. So it’s it’s not only everything that you just said, but it’s additionally physical addiction, right? And so just like the alcoholic goes to alcohol to deal with life, to have that that coping mechanism, you know, the over eater like myself, I’ve had that in my past where all food Yep, to deal with that motion. Right. Right. And, and it’s funny, we were talking about the abstainer versus the moderator. I’m more of the abstain or when it comes to food, like, there are certain types of food I have had to cut out of my life completely, because of the effects it has to me, because I but yeah, I mean, we can each identify things in our own lives that we can understand our husbands in a little bit larger of a degree that if you think about this is helping him cope with life. Right. This is less about is he attracted to you, or is he not? That’s not the question here at all. It’s coping. Yeah, exactly. That’s in In fact, that’s the wrong question. I think. Now to circle back to what you’re talking about with the counseling, finding a counselor that’s understands porn addiction is vital, because the societal refrain is, well, then the wife must not be putting out or something like that. And that’s not that’s not at all what we’re talking about. What would you say to a wife that is thinking that way? Like, it must be my fault. I must be the one at issue here,

22:00
right? Well, pornography is not about sex. It’s about fantasy. And so you could and even if you tried to become this fantasy, which would be to your own detriment, most likely, it’s not the same. Like he’s because you are attached to real life. You come with real life, emotions, real life problems, real life, you know, awesomeness to and but it’s realized that he’s trying to escape not because you’re not enough to fulfill his fantasy. It’s completely separate kind of thing.

22:35
Huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. And so when, when someone who’s looking for a counselor, what are some things that they can do to find the right person?

22:50
I would definitely do your research, um, call ask questions. And get me get referrals as much information that you can gather. I mean, I would say even calling asking for a phone interview and saying, What would you This is our problem? How would you begin to address this, and if it’s only kind of behavior therapy, because everything every addiction has that route, so you want a counselor to understand that, that this is an escape from some sort of trauma or baggage from the from their childhood, or young adulthood or whatever. Because with Craig, you know, the first time he looked at it, it was that, you know, Junior High boy, whoa, you know, like, there’s that, but then to continue to keep turning to it. It bit like Satan is really tricky with this. And so it just ended up in cat in, wrapped in, in holding him or whatever. Like, he used it to say, see, this is how you can get your needs met. See, they’re not gonna do it. Right. Right, by you, you’re alone, you’re isolated, you need to turn to this, you know, and so, um, I think having a even going to a Christian counselor who understand sexual addiction is so powerful, because, I mean, Jesus is one that set Craig free, and we’re able to really heal the wounds from his past. And the ultimate answer for Craig was I need to turn to Jesus instead of porn, but it was a spiritual battle. And so to have someone who understand that there’s spiritual warfare attached to this addiction, is Yeah, is incredible, isn’t just an incredible weapon in your arsenal.

24:35
Yes. And you know what, that is a huge piece that I think a lot of times we as wives miss, because we’re so wrapped up in the pain and the hurt, which is very valid and very true and very much happening. But it’s very hard to see outside of that and say, what spiritual ramifications are happening. I mean, that takes, I mean, how were you able to see it that way?

24:57
Well, once I realized that point, wasn’t it. About me, and it really enabled me almost to like step back as a kind of like an outside of your body experience and look at the situation, not through my eyes, but through God’s eyes. And in that I was able to access compassion for my husband, which is I mean, if we, if we carry around our, this pain inside of us, it just it hardened into anger. And then, and then where are you going to go? Like, it’s very hard to access, love and compassion, when you have to jump over this huge wall of anger. And it’s very hard to pray when you’re angry, like you really pray and intercede for your husband with anger is hard, you know? And, yeah, so that’s why I think it’s so important first for you to hear me ladies that this porn is not because you’re overweight, or because you’re underweight or because your boobs are not big enough, or you have wrinkles on your, on your, you know, crow’s feet or whatever. This is not about your exterior experience. This is about your spouse’s inability to have intimate relationship, and they are afraid. And so they’re running away. And so that’s why I think I’m counseling or trusted couple or a pastor whoever understand what it what intimacy and intimate relationship with Jesus and an intimate relationship between a man and a woman is so powerful,

26:33
huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So just to reiterate, I’m so grateful. You said that this porn addiction is not about you, your exterior, the way you look like that kind of thing. That’s not what this is about. It is about your spouse’s inability to be intimate. And, and that’s vital. I mean, and the same, I think in the same breath of that is, the additional understanding of this is his way of coping with hard things. And when I’ve even had conversations with wives that just there, they just don’t want to fight it anymore. They’re just like, well, that’s what he does sometimes. Right? And, and that’s just not, that’s not okay. That’s not what God has. Because in Proverbs, I believe it’s proverbs five, it says that adultery destroys a man’s soul. And that’s what it is porn is adultery is internal adultery. Well, that’s what Jesus says, when you lust everyone with your eyes, or your in your mind, you commit it in in your heart, you’re actually committing adultery. But if you can imagine the, the wrecking what, like, I love the the perspective of spiritual warfare, because think about it. Our purpose in marriage is to prepare our husband, our spouse for eternity, we are the one that’s closest to them. We are the iron sharpening iron, they are preparing us we’re preparing them, by serving each other, we are in preparation for eternity for being Jesus bride. And so if you think about this as a spiritual, some spiritual attack, and a way that you are the opportunity for him to grow into the person he supposed to be, it changes the whole perspective, it changes your perspective on this is a spiritual thing. This is something that he’s doing that is not in line with God and you are fighting to save his soul. I just think that’s a whole different perspective than you know, yes, there’s pain. Yes, there’s anger, all that stuff, like you said, and that has been worked through. But I think eventually, to get to a place that this is a spiritual warfare, this is something that you can take arms against, how are you going to be protecting your husband? From this? How can you help him? I mean, what do you think about those things?

28:58
Alright, I totally agree, and even even more, so to build off what you said, about you know, we’re iron sharpening iron together, we’re marriage is also supposed to be the depiction of, of how Christ loves the church and that relationship. And so if you bring in this betrayal into a marriage, it eventually even if people are not seeing the porn addiction, they’re gonna see that there is an issue, right? Because we can’t access true intimacy with Jesus when we have this big piece of blackness, you know, sitting between I, um, and I think, like, if we can have a perception that porn addiction is a battle and that we’re engaging in a war. Not only are we praying over our husband, but it reminds us to pray over ourselves, because, you know, lies are powerful. And when you have a society that is saying, Well, women look like should look like this and talk like this and act like this and be everything, you know, you should be the powerful CEO and then the auto nurturing mother all at the same time, every day, every hour. I mean, there’s so much room for attack on women and on you. And so for you to be engaged in interceding for your husband, you can also be engaged in interceding for yourself.

30:19
Yes, yes. Yes, that is so, so true. And there’s so much to it, because the enemy wants you to doubt yourself to doubt, your sexual abilities to doubt your everything he wants to bring down, right. And the thing in our society, right is all about that like to make you feel like you’re not able in every way to do what you’re supposed to do as a wife, as a mother as this or that as a as a follower of Jesus. And it’s just a lie. So how does? Oh, gosh, I feel like we could talk so much more about this. But we’re wrapping up. So I want to just kind of ask you, you know, how does a wife, maybe some practical steps, let’s get to the here and now like what are some things that would be good for her to really start doing?

31:12
And well, I think for sure, bringing sharing you were talking about sharing your pain, let’s be really, really real with God, because they’re in when I’m sharing my story in the first chapter of our book, pure eyes, clean heart, I pretty much verbatim write down the conversation that I had with God on Mother’s Day when I got Craig looking again. And I said, Why the hell did you think that this was a good idea for me to marry this person, and I listed all of the pain that had I had gone through in my life, and I was like, and you’re gonna give me this, like, what is going on. And I think it’s so good to be able to, because that’s what intimacy is like to be able to tell God, anything that you need to tell him, he can take it, he is really big, and he is really able, and he understands like it says, we have, I mean, Jesus understands every single emotion, he walked this earth, just so many would know that he really does understand and he hears us. And so I would say first share your pain with God. Second, talk to your husband about finding a safe outlet for you in Galatians. Six, it talks about that we are to share each other’s burdens. And this fulfills a lot of crap, but it obeying the law because a lot is Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, all your thing, and love your neighbor as yourself. So we are not designed to carry a burden like this by ourselves. And Satan wants us to be isolated. And he wants us to feel that shame and that oppression. And the fastest way we can get out of that is bringing it to the light to people who we can trust and who have the ability to give us compassion to not say this is if some of you share it with someone and they say all men do that. You just stop that conversation, bless them and go, that’s right now because that is not the truth. And the last thing you need to do is to be having conversations with someone who is furthering the lie, you know? And that’s right. And so then you then then it prayer. I mean, prayer is part of this whole process, right? So it’s always but I’m in fire as a spiritual warfare. There’s a book by Beth Moore called praying God’s word. And it’s about all of these different strongholds, and one of them is sexual strongholds. And I would sit down every day. And I would read these scriptures that she had turned into prayer, and I would pray them over my husband, because you’re you know, prayer is a are sort of the spirit of the Word of God and then praying His Word over a husband, it makes a big difference. And even if we can’t see that, immediately, we have to trust and have faith that it is chipping that wall. And I was talking with someone just the other day, whose husband is struggling with this. And I said, you know, we as wives would love to just rip the wall down, right? And just take that security blanket way, whatever, and just rip it down so that it will be gone, because that’s what’s safe for us. But I did think about your husband, and how if God just ripped all of that away, how much fear and how much sense of exposure and just lost like, oh my gosh, how do I cope? I mean, it’s just the fact that I said I think God is so gracious to have that chisel and he just slowly chisels away and and he wounds us because relationship is about wooing and it’s about building trust. And, and so as he takes one stone down, then he gives him something else that is good and holy in life giving to feed him, you know Not you have to have a trade off. You can’t just take away everything and expect people to cope through life. You have to give them new tools. But that’s the process, right? Mm hmm.

35:10
Yeah. And it’s funny, it’s, it’s interesting, because, um, yeah, I’ll save that for another time. But I just, I’m so grateful. This is exactly right. Because it is a process, you don’t want to get to this mode of, it’s all or nothing like you’re either failing, or you’re succeeding, like you’re either failure, you know. And I think there’s even a part of that, that you’re a partner in this with him, you’re helping him fight this, you’re helping him in these areas. And of course, that’s not an easy place to get to. And of course, there’s anger and pain and healing that has to happen. But I love Jen, your heart of of going through this process. And I think, you know, clean eyes, clean heart is a really great resource that people can go through that process with you, Jen to really get through this. So tell us where they can find you online and how they can get a hold of your book. Yeah.

36:07
So we have a website called Pure eyes, clean, heart calm. And on there. There’s some articles that I’ve written for covenant eyes, there’s some periscopes that I’ve done. It’s really share my heart and some practical ways that Craig and I have worked through this point addiction and pure eyes, clean heart is on Amazon, you can check your local bookstore too. But yeah, and you can you can find you can contact us through pure, clean heart, if you just need a way need someone who understands what you’re going through. We are both available to talk with you. And just, we don’t, God is the answer. And God has a solution. But it’s so helpful for you to be able to share your pain with someone who understands where you’re going, and what you’re what you’re grappling with. Because this is this isn’t there’s not a quick fix. And that’s sometimes so hard for people that understand because they don’t want to believe that something could take so long, right? Because you’re in every time it comes up. You feel that pain of that initial betrayal again, Mmm hmm. So you need people even if you you’re two years out, and then there’s a slip up, like you’re gonna need someone to be like, Oh, my gosh, tell me that. This is not that we’re going back to square one because you’re not going back to square one. That’s right, God. That’s right. That’s healing has not been erased. God progress, right, not been erased. That’s right. But where we are human. And sometimes we get into temptations, even though we know like that it could. It’s not going to be good for us. Right? It’s like when you eat the fifth chocolate bars. That’s right.

37:44
For you. That’s right. It’s so true. And I think, you know, as wives if we can understand it, in the ways that we’re struggling with sin, we’re not we might not be struggling with porn, but we are struggling with sin. And to understand that, that that’s just to give our husband a little bit more grace, I think is powerful and important. And, again, Jen, I’m so so grateful. I think you’ve given some really wonderful insights, I want to summarize the last three things that you said, kind of practical steps is one, Jesus really does understand, he really does. So to be really, really honest, and share with him what’s going on in your heart. I’m a journaler, it’s really much easier for me to share the hardest emotions, when I’m just writing it out when I’m actually like putting my thoughts into words. So that might be something that people can find some solace in. The other thing is talk to your husband about who’s going to be safe to share your pain with. Yeah, that’s really important. And you mentioned before we were on the call, there’s a book called safe people.

38:53
Right, right, if I am Henry Cloud and John Townsend, and it really helpful in learning and they also have a book called boundaries. So I love that book. You know, it’s really figuring out how boundaries make you a safer person. And if you because you do need to advocate for your knees, but you need to advocate for them in a way that is not confrontational and adversarial. You know, but in that, okay, this is I need to feel safe in our marriage. And so what what are ways that we can agree on that we can both feel safe, where I would feel safer if you installed covenant eyes on you know, on the computer or but if but I understand that’s not gonna solve the problem. That is a you know, safety measure. But But addiction is about a root. So you still have to right? That’s right. This is about developing intimacy and going back and allowing God to heal those places that allow this addiction to take root so you know what I’m saying? So it’s always remembering. This is about this is a heart issue. and his heart is, is thick or broken, you know. And so we need God’s healing power to be involved in that and covenant eyes won’t bring that healing. Only God can. But but you know, figuring out like, what do I need to feel safe in this? How can I remain engaged in this marriage when I feel hurt? How can I keep walking toward light? Because porn addiction can be very confusing. It’s not you know, it’s like we as a society, we say Adultery is wrong. You know, like, yeah, that’s in the Bible. There’s nothing about specifically porn, like the word pornography is not in, in the Bible. So it kind of gets muddled in our heads to praying for clarity and that God would continue to reveal what it is. That is part of the solution.

40:50
Mm hmm. Yes, that is so good. Cool. Well, okay, so go to pure eyes, clean heart COMM For more information about Jen to follow her to reach out to her. She’s obviously got a very warm heart and very amazing. Yeah, amazing testimony and insights from that. So follow her there. I’m going to have the links to everything that we’ve talked about on the show notes. So you’re welcome to go to delight your marriage calm to find those. But Jen, seriously, from the bottom of my heart. Thank you so much for this conversation.

41:20
Yeah, it’s been awesome. I really appreciate you having having me back.

41:27
So grateful for Jen’s heart, aren’t you? I mean, it’s amazing when other people have gone through what you’re going through, and they can get to the other side and say, Man, there’s hope. It sucks right now. It is really, really bad season. But there is hope on the other side. And that’s what Jen actually ended the conversation with me. We chatted a little bit after. And she said, You know, I just, I’m so grateful that I can share hope with women in the midst of the pain because I was there. And I’m on the other side now. So I hope that that is what you’ve come out of this. Sharing the pain in keeping that hope, protect that hope. That’s what God wants for us. He is the God of hope has a talks about it believe that’s Romans 15. I was looking at it the other day, I’ll reference that that verse in the show notes. So in case I’m wrong, whatever the whatever the Scripture is, alright. Well, thanks so much for joining me. God bless you pray for you and your marriage. We’ll talk next Tuesday.

42:30
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

42:51
Hey, so next week, I’m going to be talking a solo show about how to find the love of your life. Yes, this is the strategy step by step secret. I think that really, God honors it’s just wisdom around how to find the love of your life. So obviously, if you’re married, you’ve already found that person. But if you’re not or you know, some single friends or maybe your kids or something, I’ve got just the wisdom that I think God affords in this life that you know, with his help we can employ so at least come in, listen, if you can. That’s going to be next Tuesday. God bless you. We’ll talk then

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

PII: When you have been through it, you have been through it. Jenny shares the second half of her interview where she talks about the big terrible things that can happen in marriage, but then what happens as you pick up the pieces of it all. How do you work through intimacy recovering from her sexual addiction? How do you rebuild a life after cancer? What does it look like to rely on God for your daily bread? Jenny is honest and speaks soothing balm to those who need it after the wreckage.

Check out Part I at delightyourmarriage.com/97

Find out more about Jenny Miller at wholewomenministries.com or email her about coaching thorugh sexual addiction and trauma at jenny@wholewomenministries.com

You’ll Discover:

• How Jenny found out that she had cancer when her husband was away.
• How she grieved the time she missed with her infant daughter because she was in chemo.
• What cancer does to a person.
• How a marriage can survive trauma.
• What gifts are given through the most difficult seasons of marriage.

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• Wholewomenministries.com
• Dirty Girls Come Clean by Jenny’s (best friend and) founder of Whole Women Ministries
• No Stones: Women Redeemed from Sexual Addiction
• Boundaries – a book I highly recommend (it was seriously a life changer if you have a hard time with resentment, saying “no” and overextending yourself…Jesus said no).
• Captivating – also a book that changed my perspective of the beauty in feminitiy.

Scripture/Quote:

• God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world. – C.S. Lewis

Tweetables:

• We can honestly say, we wouldn’t change anything.
• People go away after everything seems ok, but that’s when I needed them the most.
• I had to mourn the missed time with my kids because of my cancer.
• It’s ok to be angry at God, He can take it.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday & Thursday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:  

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah rose.

0:19
There’s a lot of things I love about this podcast, this ministry, this business, whatever you want to call it. But I think the thing that’s on my heart today is how brave and honest my guests are, in their time with me, I just feel so encouraged after our conversation, and today is no different. If you didn’t get a chance to listen to the first half of Jenny Miller’s episode, you’ll want to go back to delight your marriage.com/ 97 and listen to the struggle she and I share about my struggle with porn addiction, and how that affects your marriage and how to get free of that and what resources there are. If you’re not familiar, it’s affecting about 37% of women, that’s more than one in three. So if it hasn’t affected you, it’s probably affected a friend. So I’d love for you to go back and listen to that. But otherwise, today, we’re really talking about Jenny’s who just, I want to say horrific challenge with cancer, I can’t even imagine what that has been like for countless women out there and how that affects your marriage. And you know, picking up the pieces after the bomb is dropped in your family. How to do that, what, what to do after the wreckage, and that’s what we’re talking about. We’re diving in. Jenny’s just real as they come she’s authentic and brave. I’m so grateful for her story. So let’s go ahead and listen in.

2:05
So okay, so, last episode, if anyone missed it, I want you to go back and listen to Jenny’s story. But we talked about pornography addiction in women. And it’s so under talked about, it’s crazy. But it’s something I struggled with something Jenny struggled with 37% of women either are currently struggling with it. So yeah, so that’s what we’ve kind of are coming from. But Jenny, you know, you walked through recovery in the context of your marriage. And I want to know, you know, a little bit about what your marriage looks like now, and, you know, through this recovery period.

2:44
Well, as far as what my marriage looks like, now, I’d love to tell you, my marriage is perfect. But that’s not the reality. Some days, it’s it’s beautiful. And some days, it’s really tough. But one thing that I have to say that my husband and I decided is that we made the decision that we’re not quitting. We’ve had some you know, if you’ve listened to the other podcast, I shared, you know, just my addiction, and then also dealing with breast cancer, it was just to double Whammies. And we keep getting hit, you know, I’m coming up on three years, it’s October, my son just broke his arm and needs all kinds of surgeries all over. It’s just, it’s there’s always going to be things that are going to come to assault, you know, you and try to trip you up. But we made the decision to not quit no matter what, no matter how hard the work is, you know, he’s made mistakes, I’ve made mistakes, but we’re learning to be Jesus to each other, because we always seek to be more like Him. And so I’m learning to show him the same grace that Christ showed me. And vice versa. You know, he has been Christ to me. And so we we make that article, I think it like you had mentioned in the last podcast, we’re going to kind of course correct back to center where it needs to be.

3:56
Yeah, no, and I think that’s powerful. One, just the acknowledgement that your marriage isn’t perfect. And it’s such freedom, like I look at, you know, the different things that happen in my marriage, and I do this ministry, and, you know, I’ve done the video course, and the book and all these things, and I feel like, you know, my marriage has to be perfect by now. And no, we still have things that we’re either working through or just little blips that just happen because of whatever’s going on. I mean, honestly, there’s been things that we’ve had to struggle through even like physical symptoms of allergies and things that are affecting our moods and, and all this stuff. So I just appreciate that acknowledgement that we’re still working through it. And the other thing that’s cool, is it kind of like a recommitment that you’re not quitting, like, obviously, you got married, so there was that commitment there. But I mean, how did you decide this kind of second? We’re not quitting. Is this like a daily decision or was there a point in the road that you said, this is Something we’re sticking with.

5:01
I think looking back over the last 15 years, the first year was really, really rough. Because I was coming into the marriage with a ton of baggage, all of my addiction issues I was carrying with me all my previous, you know, sexual relationships and brokenness and abuses that I had experienced or was bringing with me. So the first year, just I guess, trying to realize that I he wasn’t going anywhere. And you know, he wasn’t going to leave me like I had been left so many times. And then everything was okay for a while, you know, we had two of our kids about your seven, they always talk about your seven to eight, we really had a bump in the road, which actually had me going back to into counseling, which my addiction issues still were an issue, that’s when I first started working on them in the counselor’s office. And then, you know, I’d say, when the addiction came out, because then I had to be responsible, I had to take responsibility, I had justified it so many times, my husband was an over the road truck driver, he was gone for 12 years of our marriage and only home, like one, one to two days a week. So that was kind of an impediment, in a way not intentional on his part. But in my mind I justified Well, I’m alone, I have kids I’m taking care of and he’s gone. And I have this need, I need fulfilled and, you know, realizing I couldn’t use that as an excuse anymore, I had to take ownership over that. That was a time and then, you know, again, through cancer, cancer, I have no words for it. Maybe somebody is listening that knows exactly the toll that cancer takes on a family, it changes who you are. So it’s almost like we’re starting again, because we’re different. We see everything differently. We’re coping with the changes of my body, I’m in menopause and changing with the hormonal changes. And I mean, that affects your intimate relationship. And your children have gone through the trauma. And so sometimes it feels like daily, but you know, looking back, I can see the ups and downs. But I have to say that God’s grace through it all and what he has taught us, we can honestly say that we wouldn’t change anything. And that that might be shocking to some people, like how can you say that? But I can honestly say that what God has done in our hearts and the transformation that he’s done through those circumstances? I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t change it. To have and to know what I know now.

7:33
Yes, yes. That’s incredible. Can you talk a little bit more about your battle with cancer? And I mean, yeah, thinking about wives that are listening and what that does to your marriage?

7:48
Well, my husband was away that weekend that I was diagnosed, I was actually nursing my infant daughter at the time, we were almost finished nursing, but I thought I had a blocked you know, doctor, we went, I went to the doctor, and he said, you know, just let’s go over to the hospital, get an ultrasound, just to be sure. And they were whispering when they did the ultrasound and realized, you know, what it was and actually told me that day what it was, and so my husband was away at the time. He was he couldn’t get home for three days, he was out doing a lot. He just couldn’t get back. So he had a crisis of faith that weekend, I had a crisis that weekend. And I will say, you know, it was the hardest thing we’ve ever had to do. A lot of people came around and helped and helped us get through it. I don’t want to discount how difficult it was. But I have to say that the time after cancer and the aftermath, probably is for me the most difficult part because you know, the people are like, Well, how did you get through the chemo? How did you get through the surgeries, you know, you do what you have to do when you have to do it. You’re in survival mode, you’re you’re fighting for your life, but then when that’s over, and you know that you’re gonna make it and you’re looking at the wreckage, and you’re looking at, you know, the financial issues, and your body’s changed, and people go away when they think everything is okay. And you’re and that that, to me, was the hardest thing, because that’s when I needed people the most. And your relationships changed because you’ve changed, you know, you don’t like the same things you like before or you love, you know, have a deep appreciation for things you didn’t have before. And so you change, and most people are willing to go along for the ride they don’t understand. So, that has been really challenging the after, and we’re still walking in that but I’m so grateful. You know, don’t get me wrong. I’m so grateful for life and new friendships that we’ve made. But I think it’s something that people don’t realize where people that go through like a traumatic illness like that.

9:52
Right? Right. And I can only imagine I mean, so after that first like going through The chemo and your husband, you know, walking this with you this very challenging road. What was that, like on your marriage in the midst you had young children, even an infant, right?

10:11
I did, I really can’t remember a lot of her begin to crawl and walk because the chemo just my brain was just not operating properly. So I had to mourn the loss of that miss time with my kids. They’re doing great. You know, they’re resilient kids are resilient. But I want to say that a lot of times people don’t think about the caregiver, the spouse that has to walk through that. So my husband bottled up all of his thoughts and emotions to try to take care of me and he was so wonderful. But then when everything was okay, he is when it all hit him a lot of anger, a lot of just, you know, questioning things, the stuff that I had done while I was in the middle of it, and I had already resolved it all. And then came his crisis. And so us on two different levels, because I’m like, where’s my husband that was so kind and compassionate and caring, he’s angry, he’s resentful. He’s saying, you know, and a few times he and his anger, and we’ve worked past this, but he would say, you know, it’s been two years, how come we’re not over this? You know, me, I’m like, Oh, that’s a wound of my heart. How could you say that to me? Like, I need, you know, space here. And he just wanted to be over and he didn’t know how to cope with it. And so yeah, it’s, it’s been a process and that for both of us.

11:31
Wow, wow, uh, you know, we have someone on episode 88 and 89, if anyone’s interested, but her her brother committed suicide and the amount of grief she went through. And then she really talks about how her husband had to care for her. And and that’s, you need that, like, not. And she said that the that these traumatic events, you know, what you’ve gone through is, obviously a traumatic event. It’s something like 85% of marriages don’t survive trauma. Yeah, that’s what it is. I just looked it up. So. So this is huge, huge that, you know, you all walked through this trauma and got to the other side. Why do you think you all were able to do that?

12:23
We have asked that question so many times, and it’s not just the cancer to but the percentage of families whose one spouse is over the road truck driver is like, up around that same percentage of divorce, then addiction, you know, infidelity, and whatever, that’s up there, too. And then you have cancer on top of that. And honestly, I don’t think that it’s anything that I personally did, or Randy personally did, or how wonderful personalities we are, it doesn’t have anything to do with that. I think the only thing is that we were grounded in a relationship with Christ and daily, like, we were so desperate for him. We couldn’t even breathe without him. And we I think we had started to establish that before all of this took place. And we had a crisis of faith too. We had, we were angry at God at times we. And that’s okay. You know that I want to say that that’s okay. God can handle our anger and our questions. And I think that is that is what kept us is just that constant return to the foundation of our faith, and our trust in Him and, and through speckle throughout. I call it bittersweet, because in the lowest times I feel that God spoke to me the loudest there’s a quote by CS Lewis, and I’m going to botch it because I don’t have it in front of me, but it talks about, he whispers to us. But he shouts in our pain. And so when when the things are at their worst is when God can speak the loudest and you’re so attuned to hear his voice. And I actually, at times, Miss that closeness. I don’t want to go through what I went through again, but I missed that closeness I had, because I was so desperate for him. And so I sometimes say cancer was the cure for me, because it just taught me that I need him for my daily breath. And I just Yeah,

14:25
that’s right. That’s so so true. You know, I am I went through a really hard season this last year, and I was in the hospital for time and on so much drugs that like you, I had to mourn the first first months of my son’s life because I couldn’t I can’t remember a lot of it. But the thing that I was, I was reflecting on that season with a friend. And that friend has battled Lyme disease, Lyme disease for eight years. Very amazingly. She I don’t know if anyone is familiar with Lyme disease, but it’s very debilitating. It can be depending on when they catch it, but it can basically, you can’t get out of bed for days and your whole insides are turned inside out, there’s so much discomfort and so much lack of energy. And anyway, she said that she was starting to feel better, again, years after dealing with this daily, she still deals with a lot of the effects. But she said that, you know, I started to think through that, you know, as I was feeling better, you know, I started to feel that dependency on God, my daily dependency, and I realized that that was a gift that dependency on God daily. And that meant so much to me, because as I was going through what I was going through that time, was it. Like, I had to go spend time with God or I would not make that day. I didn’t know if I could make it through that day, if I did not have that time with Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m forever different. It’s not hard for me to do my my daily time with him anymore. Because I’ve been in a season where it was so desperately needed that I, yeah, I didn’t know if I could survive if I didn’t have that time with him. Yeah, so that’s, that’s so powerful. That’s so powerful. And I just want to underscore what you said that, you know, there’s nothing special about you or your husband, that you’ve been able to surmount every huge thing that you’ve surmounted and moved forward with, except that dependency on Jesus. And I kind of want to, you know, as you you mentioned, that beautifully, you know, after the wreckage that you needed that support from others, and, you know, thinking through, you know, piecing your life back together, as you’ve been different after this. Trauma and difficulty, you know, what, um, you know, how, how have you kind of pieced that together? And how can you help someone who’s maybe piecing together their life after a wreckage?

17:09
Well, I was unable to do it on my own, it was overwhelming. I think whenever I keep going back to that daily thing, it’s God showed me something really profound. And this was only a few months ago, actually, in reference to the daily walk with him. And I think that sometimes we think that when we’re on this journey following Jesus, that we’re, he’s in front of us, and we’re following behind him. And we’re just following behind him wherever he goes, if he goes left, we go left we go. I think there’s a song that says something like that. But that’s, um, he showed me that no, this is a walk, I’m next to you. I’m sat, you’re looking over at me, and you’re matching my stride. And I’m looking at him saying, you know, how fast do you want to walk today? Jesus? How would you we want to stop here and wait a while. And those times, you know, when you feel like that he’s left? You know, we’ve all been there, like, where are you? I don’t see you. I think of those times, his times, we have run ahead of him. And we’ve kind of just said, Well, let me run ahead. And let me figure it out. Let me try to make sense of it or, and we run ahead, and he’s just patiently waiting for us to stop. And he matches back up with us, and we start to walk again. And so that’s a daily thing. You once you once you think outside of today, like how am I going to deal with next week? How am I going to deal with I go back and six months? And what are they going to say if I have cancer again? Or how am I going to deal with what I’ve lost? You know, how are you going to get this back? It causes anxiety and fear and right, those things are not of God. And it goes against our nature to just trust and to walk. But he’s so graceful, and he’s so patient with us. And when we match back up with him, there’s no shame, there’s not condemnation. He’s like, I’m just waiting for you. I’m just here waiting for you know, it’s such it’s beautiful. It’s a beautiful thing. And the quicker we can surrender and realize that the more we can be like him.

19:05
That’s so beautiful. Yes. Well, so then, you know, to kind of get to these last questions I want to ask you just do this today. Oh, you know what? I completely forgot. Is there a tip about sexual intimacy that you could share? Again, amidst everything that you’ve gone through? I’m sure sex was part of this experience with your husband. I was are there any things that you’d like to share to our audience?

19:32
Well, if I, if I could go back in Britain and think back about intimacy, and when I didn’t learn about it when I should have no one really talked to me about what true intimacy was when I was young. I mean, I think in in church, you know, you have the youth rose don’t have sex, you know, that. Don’t do it. Just don’t do it. But what is true intimacy, what is you know, and I believe that the enemy of our soul, he was on a mission, he wanted to make sure that I adopted a false sense distorted sense of what that was. And, you know, going back to the sexual addiction being an intimate intimacy disorder, I was afraid to show my real self because I thought that I would be rejected. And over time I lost my identity because I changed to be whoever what people wanted me to be. And, you know, if the rejection of my husband, you know, we would withdrawal and we didn’t want to show, you know, he didn’t want to show his true self to me because I was rejecting Him. And that was his fear of rejection. And you can see the cycle that turned and I just wish someone had told me early on that marriage and intimacy is not, you know, that fairy tale version that Hollywood sends us. You know, in all the romance novels, there’s times you want to quit, there’s times you want to give up. And I wish more people were willing to share their stories of brokenness. Maybe early on, if I had heard someone’s story, I would have felt like I wasn’t alone. And I could have done that course correct. And correction, instead of it being like an action reaction action reaction. And, you know, I get accused all the time of being too real. From people who don’t understand me, they’re like you, you do share too much. But I have to say, that’s not all bad. Because we’re not, you know, our culture is not about letting it all hang out. Or maybe it is, but in my church community, it’s not, you know, our tendency is to hide and put our best foot forward. But since I’ve been completely open, and I just share the wrongness and the realness of it is, I can’t believe the number of people that just say, Me, too, I thought I was all alone. That’s right. So you know, I would just say, you know, in our try the vulnerability, yes, there’s a fear of being vulnerable. And yes, we’ve been hurt in our past. But, you know, we can learn through Christ to highlight that heart be soften and to be vulnerable in relationship with other people and to know who is good for us and who is not good for us and not be open with everyone. But yeah, be a good steward and to pour into people that God has sent our way that are safe people.

22:02
Yeah, that’s right. And next week, you can tune in back again, and we’re gonna talk more about safe people. But that’s awesome. I’m so grateful that you shared, you know, the stories of brokenness it gives you that, I mean, hope that it could be different. And to hear that other people have struggled in the same ways and, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s community there their safety and yeah, not isolation, which the enemy wants to keep a sense. So, yeah, that’s powerful. Okay, so due to the specific marriage, you’ve had specific struggles, you’ve had specific journeys you’ve had, what opportunities have you had to serve and get to know God talked about this a bit, but

22:46
well, that like, again, that would take a long time to tell? I would say that I learned the most about the grace of God, from my husband. I grew up in church, you know, I knew scriptures, I was in Bible Quizzing program where you memorize the Bible, unpack backwards and forwards, we will go to tournaments, I mean, but in all of that knowing of Scripture, I still believe the lie that that wasn’t for me, it was that lie that was sown that I was outside, you know, the love and grace of God because I was damaged. And my husband wasn’t perfect, but God did use him to teach me about grace. And Grace is the antidote to shame. Because when you truly experience grace, God’s way, just like the song says, you know, his grace is an ocean, we’re all sinking. That just shows how deep that it is. I’ve learned the lesson about my journey with Christ is just that, you know, journey like I share that side by side. And just that prayer, you know, God, what do you want me to do just today? What do you want me to say today? And so the biggest thing is just knowing that grace is for me, it’s for me, those promises are for me, and maybe your feelings. And I say this a lot, or feelings can’t always be trusted. And we people go by their feelings. I mean, we live in a world do you know what you feel and what Be true to yourself, but our feelings are not, cannot always be trusted. Because we’re flawed. We’re broken since the fall of Adam. And so to understand that the truth of God’s word is something that we can use, and we can speak out, even if our feelings don’t match up, but we still speak that truth about grace and that truth about what who we are in Him. That is powerful. And I posted all over my house when I was going through everything, and I would get up in the morning and I would read it and I might not believe it, but I read it. I read it. And just speaking that over my home and over my life and over my family, I think is spiritually dynamic.

24:46
That’s powerful. I love that. Yeah. So is there a book or specific program that you would recommend for our listeners, maybe that are going through cancer or That kind of enormity in their life and in their marriage.

25:04
I do have a lot of resources. As far as the sexual addiction, I would recommend checking out whole women ministries.com We have a online community. On there, we have a 90 days to wholeness devotional that you can actually go through has discussion prompts that you can answer or journal through. Our founder director Krystal Renaud she’s my best friend, but she is she wrote a book called Dirty girls come clean, it has the stories of 12 women in it, including myself and hers. And it also is a great group study to as a lot of great questions at the end of every chapter. You can find that on Amazon or on the website, and there’s another book, no stones by Marnie for re F E R R E, I believe. And that’s great also, and then just for your heart, space, John and Stacy eldritch, wrote a book and it’s a few years old, it’s called captivating, unveiling the mystery of a woman’s soul. That was really dynamic for me. And also, there’s a guided journal that you can get to go with that. And then it’s good. One other book I recommend for everyone is boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend when to say yes, when to say no and take control of your life. I think Awesome. That’s a great book, too.

26:18
Yes, I love that. Okay, those are fantastic resources. I’m going to have all this linked up at delight your marriage.com/ 98 so you can just click on these links. But yes, whole women ministries that.com. Be before we are so excited about these, these resources, because surprisingly, you will be surprised when you start opening up again to save people. But they’ll want resources that that Jenny’s just been kind enough to share with us. Okay, so if you could go back to your one if your marriage Sit yourself down, what’s one piece of advice that you would give to you?

26:57
Oh, I’ve asked myself this question, too. There’s so many points where I would go back and just bring my bring my neck and say, What are you doing? Honestly, if I could sit down with that 22 year old girl who was broken and insecure, that version of myself before I got married, I would just tell her, that the journey that she’s about to go on is not easy, but that it’s worth it. That as alone as she might feel she’s never alone, and that she just needs to understand that her husband is not going to be the person that defines her that her identities and Jesus Christ alone, that our marriage is not the fix all for your brokenness or your baggage, it’s not going to disappear like magic. But only Jesus Christ can open those suitcases of that baggage and just take that from her because remember, his yoke is easy, and His burden is light.

27:48
Praise God. That is awesome. Well, okay, so lastly, you know, I’m sure people will want to know how to connect with you online, how to follow you and your resources. Where can they go?

27:59
Well, I’m working on my website right now. So it’s not up and running yet. But I’m hoping to have a blog on there and maybe offer some coaching but they can reach me by email at home and ministries, they can go to Jenny, it’s je and NY at whole women ministries.com. I would love to hear from anyone that has any questions that I can help them with or just share their story with me. So pretty much I say you can find me on Facebook, too. But emails probably the best way.

28:26
Cool. And just to clarify, what will your coaching be about so that if someone wants to work with you how, what will that be like?

28:34
Well, I’m about to graduate with my degree in crisis and trauma counseling, and like I said, I’m going to grad school, so I’m not licensed counselor yet, but I can offer coaching services. So the areas would be trauma, sexual addiction and brokenness. I can do some financial coaching as well, and things like that. So

28:52
awesome. Yeah, no, that’s good. Okay, so we’ll have your email address for people who want to know more about your coaching about trauma, sexual addiction, that kind of thing. And people can just click there so so they can get in touch with you, Jenny, this has been amazing. Thank you for your heart and everything that you shared with us. Thank

29:09
you so much for having me. Like,

29:13
I just want to be so grateful for Jenny’s heart and her story. And I hope that this conversation has sparked in you a desire to focus in on your relationship with Jesus ultimately, ultimately, that’s what this is about. Our whole marriage is to point us to God to make us more like him to grow us in our intimacy with Jesus and in our work that we’re supposed to be doing for him. I mean, it’s all that direction. And so I just encourage you to take this this has some motivation to take up a notch of whatever you’re doing and I think, you know, intimacy with Jesus looks at Different in all of our lives. For me, it means going running and talking to God while I do that, and doing Affirmations, Visualization, meditating on the Scripture afterwards, praying about my day and my walk with Him. That’s how I, as Jenny put it, you know, put my, you know, that’s how I course correct. But I just encourage you, where whatever it means for you in your life in your walk with Jesus, take that step today, start to make it a habit. Do one this week, just one time this week, that’s your only goal. Don’t you don’t have to make the goal. Seven times this week, I actually meet with women every week and we talk about our goals and we keep each other accountable. It’s really a wonderful group that we just do it online. It’s anyway, I always encourage the women, when they have a goal that they want to do, you know, 10 times this week are blah, blah, blah, this this new goal, always start small. Just start with the bare minimum, the absolute smallest thing, just make that your goal this week, the smallest step for you make that your goal in next week. You can grow that goal, but only one very small thing this week. Okay, so that’s my challenge to you until we talk next week. Again, we’re gonna be talking about safe people encourage you to, to join in again. I love you. I’m praying for you and take that one small step this week.

31:27
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

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Jenny knows what it’s like to struggle to stop & recover from sexual addiction, so do I. Today, we break the back of shame (the devil’s #1 tool) and reveal what so many others cover up. Jenny is brave to share a story about sexual addiction that is affecting at least 37% of women. We hear often about the men, but women struggle too. And it’s time we talk about the hope there is for women.

Find out more about Jenny Miller at wholewomenministries.com

You’ll Discover:

• How many women are struggling with pornography.
• Why it’s such a problem for women and what is at its root.
• The story of a woman who faced down the shame giant and valiantly overcame it.
• What you can do to get free of this addiction.
• How to help your sisters who are struggling (become a safe person).
• What to do when you question your own sexuality (something I’ve done).

Scripture/Quote:

• Proverbs 31:25
  • She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come.
• Isaiah 43:2
  • When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze.
• Galatians 6:2
  • Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

Resources:

• Wholewomenministries.com help and community for women to get free of porn and sexual addiction
• My recent episode on confidence

Tweetables:

• Shame is the number one tool of the enemy.
• Sexual addiction ruins the intimacy in your marriage.
• “No” is a complete sentence.
• You can’t break this addiction by yourself.
• It’s a daily course correction.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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TRanscript

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Have you been a victim of sexual sin? Porn, infidelity, or even past sin prior to marriage can put us into a whirlwind of hurt and pain. Kay understands that heartache when she happened upon her husband’s porn addition 6 years into it. How did she make it through? How could her marriage survive such betrayal? Kay, a trained counselor, gives amazing insights and suggestions for the wife who is hurt and how to move through that hurt into healing. This episode may be the hope you’ve been grasping for.

Find out more about Kay at kaybruner.com
You’ll Discover:

• What it feels like in the midst of betrayal and how PTSD is very common in response to this.
• How women are often left behind in the process of healing from a sexual sin.
  • There’s a temptation to think, once the behavior has stopped or marriage counseling has been had, everything’s fine. But what about the wife who still has trouble sleeping, can’t trust her husband and is so fearful it could happen again.
• What is the first step after a sex addiction revelation?
  • You can’t do this alone, my dear wife.
• How do you move past your fears and imaginations of what he might be thinking?
• How do you separate yourself and your own self worth in the midst of betrayal?
• How this work is excruciating and it’s okay and important to acknowledge that.
• The difference between building behavioral trust and building emotional trust.
• How to have healthy sexuality after such pain.

Resources:

• Debunking the Myth of Forgive & Forget, Kay’s book about forgiveness and learning to trust after betrayal
• Steve Arterburn’s books:
  • Every Man’s Battle, to understand the experience of your husband around sexual sin
  • Every Heart Restored, to go through healing for the wife when sexual sin is revealed
• Where to find Christian Counselors/Therapists:
  • American Association of Christian Counselors website
  • Psychology Today website (when searching, you can select for Christian counselors/therapists in your zip code)
• John Gottman’s book 7 Principles For Making Marriages Work, about building emotional trust in marriage
• Henri Nouwen’s book Turn My Mourning into Dancing about how God uses the pain in our lives

Scripture/Quote:

• Ephesians 3:17b-19 “And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
• 1 Samuel 8:7b “It is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected Me as their king.”
• Ann Lambert “The difference between me and God, is God never thinks He’s me.”
• Richard Rohr, “When you’re out of control, that is suffering”

Tweetables:

• I thought we had a certain thing, and we didn’t.
• Until we hit a huge problem, we were not compelled to dig into the of our lives.
• There’s potential for goodness in the mess.
• When you are faced with the loss of your marriage, it’s traumatic.
• When you’re traumatized it’s so hard to make wise choices for yourself.
• I cannot trust someone unless they are trustworthy.
• Our sexuality is a deep, deep part of who we are.
• Women have been taught to be afraid of their sexuality.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:  

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Tony Ingrassia of powerofpurity.org. Tony is incredibly brave to share his story. He describes the importance of understanding your sexual journey and how it affects who you are today. He happened upon his father’s pornography as a kid, was abused as a young man which led into adulterous affairs when he was unhappily married. Tony shares the hope found in our saviour and how God can take the horrible parts of our lives and resurrect into new life.

Scripture/Quote:

• It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God;  and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister.[b] The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before.  For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 1 Thess 4:3-7

You’ll Discover:

• How Tony’s wife Sherry had been abused as a young girl and how that affected her marriage from the very first night.
• How Tony had discovered his father’s porn stash and became hooked as a young man.
• How our stories affect our present and how important it is to honestly and bravely understand what has happened to us.
• How God uses our spouse to mold us into the person He wants us to be.
• How God takes the dead and terrible places of our lives and brings new life, just like the resurrection of Christ.

Tweetables:

• God doesn’t waste our pain.
• Our greatest opportunity for ministry is where the deepest brokenness of our life intersect with the grace and the mercy of God.
• God may use your spouse to mold you into the person with the character He wants for you to be.
• I think it’s incredibly important to understand our story and we let God into our story to bring our healing.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:  

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host belah rose.

0:18
Hello, hello and welcome. This is the delight your marriage podcast. And I want to thank you so much for joining me today. This is about you and your marriage and your intimacy and having a wholehearted life in your marriage. And today we’re going to be talking about stories each of us brings baggage into our marriage, each one of us none of us is exempt from this and and we also have baggage from being in our marriage and having bad habits or having things that we just need to work through with God. And so today we’re talking to Tony and he is going to be talking about his story which is just incredible. You won’t well I’ll let you listen to it but it but there’s plenty of abuse and, and sad things that have happened and he talks about how his story has needed God’s redemption in every corner and, and how he’s worked through that. Before we dive in. I want to share with you an iTunes review. It says thank you belah rose for having the courage and tenacity to bring an often taboo subject to the forefront and for approaching it with scripture purity and wisdom. Husbands and wives desperately need godly guidance in the area of sexuality, especially what God Almighty created to set us apart as a married couple. Satan has perverted with his deception. Our culture is sex saturated lust saturated and falling fast from what God intended to be sacred. Thank you for your honesty. So I just so appreciate that review. And anyone that has given an iTunes review for the delight your marriage podcast you are, well I’m so grateful for you because you were helping spread the word of dy M it actually makes dy m more findable and searchable in iTunes. So thank you so much for that and also it just very much encourages me so um, but I am excited. Let’s go ahead and dive into today’s topic with Tony.

2:12
Okay, well welcome back delight your marriage listener. I am really excited to have you with us today I

2:29
have a wonderful guest. His name is Tony Ingrassia. And he has a website called The Power of purity or sorry, power of purity.org. And he runs a ministry called The Power of purity, and welcomes Tony, how are you today?

2:44
I’m fantastic. And thank you belah for the opportunity to share. It’s a pleasure to meet you.

2:49
Oh, I so appreciate it. Well, I think this is going to be an awesome conversation. And I think you have so much to share. Now I’d love for you to introduce yourself and a little about your family and your day to day life if you would.

3:01
Sure. Yeah, I’m my name is Tony. I’m 58 years old, and I’m married to my wonderful wife, Sherry, we’ve been married for 32 years. And it’s it’s really a miracle. Our marriage is a miracle. Because we’ve really experienced the grace and the mercy of God, we went to hell and back in the context of our marriage. So the fact the fact that we’re still together is truly a miracle of God. We have three sons and three granddaughters, and I’m in the ministry full time. Basically, my time in ministry is divided into three sections. I pastor, a small church in St. Charles, Missouri, called the outpost church. And I’m also a licensed professional counselor in the state of Missouri. So I do some professional counseling. And then I’m the director of a ministry called The Power of purity. And we have a website, power purity.org. And the essence of this, essentially, this ministry was born out of the deepest brokenness of my life and my my wife’s life, really, because we were to deeply profoundly broken people in the sexual area of our lives. And there were a lot of implications to that, throughout our marriage and things that we had to come to learn and understand. But anyway, the power of purity was born out of that. And essentially, we try to share with people what it means to bring your sexual gift under the authority of God, and to do sex God’s way. Because we found out that, you know, I did set Tony’s way for a long, long time, my wife was doing sex Sherry’s way, and it leads to hurt and destruction and pain and confusion and disorientation. And God’s way of doing sex is way, way better than our way. So as we, as we learn to bring our sexual gift under the authority of God, we find hope we find healing, we find redemption. And it’s just been an awesome journey, what the Lord has done in our hearts and our lives.

5:19
That’s really exciting. I’m so excited to, to dive into your story more. And before we do that, would you mind sharing a little bit about you and Sherry’s personalities?

5:31
I’m, I’m kind of an extrovert. I’m more outgoing. I’m more verbal and expressive. And I communicate, I’m more outward, essentially, in my wife, Sherry is more of an inward person, more shy, more quiet. She needs to simmer sometimes to figure out what she’s thinking what she’s feeling. So that that’s been something we’ve had to learn about and has been a source of tension over the years in our marriage. And we had to learn to understand each other, and how how we work as individuals, and then the implications of that, on who we are together as a couple.

6:15
Huh, right. Yeah. And then, you know, this, this podcast is really all about inspiring and empowering wives to live wholehearted intimacy in their marriages. And I’d love for you to share a scripture or a quote that’s meant a lot to you over the years if you could.

6:32
That’s kind of a hard one. Because I could I can probably pick so many. I think I know where I’m going to go here. I’m turning in my Bible. Well, let me go here to First Thessalonians chapter four. It says it is God’s will that you should be sanctified, that you should avoid sexual immorality, that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust, like the heathen who do not know God, and that in this matter, no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish man for all such sins, as we have already told you and warn you, For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. And I love that scripture. Because it conveys to me the very real possibility that we can learn to manage our body in a way that is holy and honorable to God.

7:32
Hmm. Yeah, that’s good. Well, would you be willing to dive into the story, then have a difficult season and struggle with your marriage? Yes,

7:44
very much. So. I, my wife isn’t here, of course, the interviews with me. But I just want everybody to know, as I talk about our story, I do so with my wife’s permission, we believe very much that, that, that God wants us to share our story with others, to try to help and encourage other people. And we’ve learned we’ve learned that kind of a principle of God’s Kingdom is God doesn’t waste our pain, you know. And I’ve heard it said that our greatest opportunity for ministry is where the deepest brokenness of our life intersects with the grace and the mercy of God. And so, in an ironic way, this this whole thing about sex represents not only the deepest pain and hurt and confusion, and disorientation and sin and brokenness of our lives, but it also represents the greatest expression and experience of God’s love and mercy and Power and Light and healing, and redemption, and forgiveness and salvation. So, you know, out of the deepest brokenness of our lives, comes comes the life of God. And so, so I think that our greatest message comes from our deepest brokenness, and that’s why we want we want to share our story. And by the way, it occurs to me and in these comments that I just shared, what we’re really talking about is the gospel of Christ. Because if you think about it, the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. And most of us would say, I’m very interested in that resurrection part. Like I’m raising my hand sign me up. Yeah, I want the life of God, the power of God, the healing of God. But But the interesting part in the template of the Gospel is that the death comes before the resurrection, that death, burial and resurrection. So Sometimes God allows a kind of death, a dying in our lives, a dying of self, a dying of our own independence and autonomy, and rebellion against God and Death to what I reflected on earlier a Tony’s going to do sex Tony’s way and manage my life my way. And so anyway, we certainly had our time of dying and God, and that, that qualifies us for the gospel because God then can come in and do his thing. Which is bring that so witches bring dead things back to life. And that’s what he’s done in my heart, in my sexual self, and in my marriage, and what he’s done in my wife as well. But anyway, did you want to ask some questions? Or do you want me to just kind of share a little bit of the story or?

10:39
Yeah, I would love for you to actually, if you could kind of bring us there to what happened and how it happened. And give us a full view of that. And I’ll ask some questions as we kind of get started that way. Okay.

10:50
Wow. So I’m just gonna share her and you just jump in and interrupt me if there’s a question or comment or observation, or if I’m not being clear about something. But anyway, as I said, my wife and I have been married for 32 years. We got married on September 17 1983. And we’re very convinced that, that when most people get married, when we say I do to each other, most of us have no idea what we’re getting into. I don’t think that most people really truly know who they’re marrying. I think that’s a reality. Because most of us maybe don’t even know ourselves that well, let alone the other person, you know. So married marriage has a way of revealing things, revealing who you really are, and who you’re who you married. And so often, the person you marry turns out to be very different than the person you thought you were married, you know. So I’m convinced that God uses marriage as a primary tool and anvil in human lives, you know, and one time in fact, I’ll throw this in for free. I know I’m not getting to my story yet. But the Lord gave me a metaphor one time. And in this metaphor, God is the blacksmith. And well, you know, a blacksmith needs to shape things. So he puts it in the fire and heats it up an old twisted piece of metal that he wants to seep into something. And then he puts it against an anvil, and he takes his hammer and he begins to beat it and pound on it, you know, if the blacksmith took the metal and just hit it with a hammer buying, buying, it would shake and rattle and he can leverage. So he realizes I have this tool, it’s called an anvil. It’s this gigantic, heavy piece of steel that I can put the metal against, and now I can pound the heck out of it. Bang, bang, bang, against the anvil. So in this metaphor, God showed me that God is the blacksmith, and my wife, Sherry, was God’s anvil in my life, and I’m a twisted messed up piece of metal that God’s trying to shape so God needed something that he could put Tony against, and then pound on my life. And without a doubt, God has used my beautiful wife Sherry, as as the most significant instrument of sanctification of God working in my heart and life, to reveal things about me to expose things to pound things out of me that needed to be pound out. And it’s, it’s a, it’s a wonderful process, and a terrible process, in the, in the way of the things of God and something that makes me sad as a pastor, and as a professional counselor, you know, I’m working with people frequently in deeply troubled marital situations and relationships, and, and I just see that people, in my opinion, and people often give up way too easy, you know, in them is this process is unfolding and God’s trying to do something, and the goings getting tough, and God has you against the anvil of your spouse, and he’s any starting to pound away. And it’s uncomfortable, you know, if that piece of metal had feelings or emotions, it would say, hey, this hurts God Quit hitting me what’s going on? I don’t like this. I didn’t sign up for this, you know, and that there would be and people give up, they hit the retail he jacked button, and people escaped their marriages. And I think it’s a shame because God often uses these things toward his redemptive purposes in our lives. But anyway, enough of that, I’m kind of I’m given a sermon that and I didn’t mean to do that. You actually me to share my story. Yeah, so I’m going to get to the story. Anyway, we got married. I was 26, my wife was 22. And suffice to say that our marriage was an instant disaster, and instant disaster, a total mess. And I mean, on our very wedding night, my wife did not want to make love. She very, very uncomfortable, something was wrong. Now the event did happen. But I could tell something was wrong. It was not at all what, you know, the romantic stereotype of what your wedding night should be, I could tell that my wife was.

15:46
She was there physically. But it’s as if she wasn’t there. You understand what I mean? He wasn’t really present and connect. And I could tell something was very, very wrong. And I thought, Well, maybe it’s the helter skelter of our wedding day, people in from out of town and months and months of planning and being nervous and weddings, like a giant puzzle, all the pieces coming together, maybe tomorrow will be better maybe the next day. But but but it went from bad to worse. And and it was a very, very difficult situation. Well, let me go backwards for just a minute. And as you understand a little bit of our stories, it’ll make perfect sense to you why our wedding night was such a total disaster. I’ll start I’ll start with my wife just to share a little bit of her story. She grew up in a very dysfunctional home. By the way, it by insane that I don’t mean anything derogatory or against her family. I happen to believe that we all grow up in very functional homes, because basically, because the Bible says we’re every person is a sinner. So, you know, every home is dysfunctional in its own way. But Sherry’s mom and dad slept in separate beds, her entire life, separate separate bedrooms, so that that’s what was modeled for her as what how a husband and a wife lived together. Then at the age of 13, Sherry had intercourse for the first time, and which is way, way too young, as far as I’m concerned. And but to make matters worse, she was raped, she was essentially raped at the age of 13. And if I told you nothing more of her story, nothing more. Can you imagine how devastating an event like that would be any young lady’s heart and alive, right, right. So you would think that being raped at the age of 13, would lead to a posture of kind of resistance or an aversion to sex. But in her situation, it had the very opposite effect. And it basically invited her into a world of prompt a world of promiscuity. And she became rather promiscuous, ages 1314 1516. Then at the age of 17, she got pregnant and had an abortion. And this is all before she became a Christian. By the way, what was happening when she was 13 years old. Sherry was in with a group of gals. In her neighborhood, there was five or six girlfriends, and two of them were 16, so they could drive. And this there was a 15 year old a 14 And Sherry was the youngest at 13. So they would hang out. And one of these 16 year old girls had a boyfriend that lived in Illinois, and we live in Missouri in a St. Louis area. So all the girls would get in the car and go over to Illinois that this girl wanted to go see your boyfriend. Can you imagine a little 13 year old going to another state and her mother doesn’t even know that she’s doing this welding, they get to this house. And the Carlota girls goes in the house and there’s a bunch of guys in this house. Mom and Dad aren’t home. And in a short matter of time, an 18 year old guy got a hold of Cherie and basically pulled her in a back bedroom. And he did this thing to her now it wasn’t a it wasn’t a forcible rape in the sense that he punched her and kicked her and she was screaming No, no, it wasn’t like that. Basically, he perpetrated sex sexual intercourse upon her. She didn’t even really quite understand what was happening. Of course back to two illustrate the level of her naivete. She asked one of the older girls later. What is a virgin? Mean? Was he asked her during the event? Are you a virgin? And you know why he did that? Bella? No, I don’t know for sure. But I have a suspicion. And if I was a betting man, I’d bet a nickel. But he did that because I can only imagine it heightened his sense of conquest. Knowing that he was. Yeah, I’m sorry. I feel so sorry, emotional about that. That he was taking her virginity.

20:45
It heightened his sense of conquests to know that what he was doing to this little girl, you know. So she went through this promiscuity she had this abortion at the age of 18 and 19. Sherry then tried to commit suicide two different times. And the way that she tells the story is that she doesn’t even know why she wanted to die. All she knows is that she hated herself. He felt deep shame. And she intuitively knew that these boys didn’t love her didn’t really love her and want her for her. They wanted her for what they could get from her. Right and she she’s a young girl in the verbage of the the song looking for love in all the wrong places looking for love in too many faces. And so she wants a boyfriend like like any true blue red blooded American girl she wants to boyfriend to you know, will the boy think I’m pretty? Will a boy think I’m special? Will the boy want to kiss me will will avoid want to be my boyfriend. So she wants a boyfriend and what do all the guys want? They want to they want to get in her pants, you know. So she’s a very confused, young lady. Fortunately, both attempts were unsuccessful, unsuccessful. And so fast forward just two years at the I meet her at the age of 21. And almost instantly fall in love with her. If you saw, if you saw her picture, you’d know why. She’s a beautiful, gorgeous woman. And so I’m just looking at this person, and she’s a wonderful person and a beautiful person. And so we fall in love and decide that we’re going to get married. I didn’t understand Sherry story, that that’s what I meant when I said earlier that I think when when most of us get married, we don’t really understand each other’s story. We don’t necessarily understand who we’re marrying. And, of course, I didn’t understand any of sherry story. I didn’t even understand my own story at that point. Yeah. So so we got married. And that’s just a little bit of Shiri story. Now I’ll talk just a little bit of my story. I also grew up in a very dysfunctional home. My I had a very difficult relationship with my dad, my dad was, of course, you know, CS Lewis says that every person is that humanity is a glorious ruin. Every person has dignity and depravity, The Good, the Bad, the Ugly. So my dad, of course, was a wonderful, beautiful person is an image bearer of God, many wonderful qualities, but also, he had his depravity and he was a very, very angry man. So I basically grew up under a pavilion of fear. I was very, very afraid of my dad, you know, and my dad, although I didn’t understand, and at the time, I later came to understand that he was a very sexualized man, and he has a ton of pornography, stacks of pornographic magazines and X rated books and I discovered my dad’s porn, I think I was 10 years old. And so looking back, I’m kind of amazed at the power that pornography has in a young a young boy’s heart and soul. And I I embraced this experience when I found it, I was very drawn to the pornography. I became very involved in it, I indulged in it and I, I would seek it out, you know, after I found it now later when I was in my own therapeutic process, I came to understand some things about that event that that helped me understand why it was so powerful. I think for me, the pornography that I discovered as a young boy, I filled a kind of emotional neediness that I had, that I didn’t understand. The fact is in my family of origin, I already mentioned that I was I was afraid of my dad. And there just was no demonstrative

25:36
expression of love in my family. There was no touching, hugging, nobody said, I love you. I have no memory when I was a kid of sitting on a parent’s lap of being tucked in bed, of having my hair caressed. Having a book read to me, have ever been touched of other than an anger, you know? And I think there was kind of an emotional neediness in this little boy as if I was like, crying out Will someone please touch me? Will someone please love me. There was a kind of aloneness in my, in my young heart. And when I found the pornography, I think in a, in a odd way, the pornography was not just a physical or sexual event for me, but it was an emotional event because I saw in the pornography, something that I was longing for that I didn’t even understand people, people touching each other people expressing love, affection enjoying each other. So I think in an odd way, it affected me on a deep, profound emotional level. And the pornography was unbelievably powerful. And believe it or not, I really believe that my sexual addiction began probably at age 10, or 11. While then fast forward at the age of 13. Through 15, I was sexually abused by two older women. Oh, my goodness, I just want to mention one thing, and that is that I think it’s very sad that for, for a young boy that his very first sexual experiences are with these older women. And what I want to say is that these experiences affirm to me the very lessons that I was learning in the pornography that this is what women are like, this is what women do. This is what women want. This is, this is how you what sex is, this is how people treat each other. I was learning lessons about fidelity, I knew this woman was married, but but she was doing these things with me. So So faithfulness isn’t all that important. And it’s okay to play around in which the people in the pornography do and so, so the whole birth and orientation of my sexual self was just so twisted. It was so unholy. It was so ungodly, it was so the foundation, the sexual foundation that was being put in my heart and life was just, it was so disoriented, you know,

28:54
and I’m so grateful that you’re sharing and so openly and vulnerably, I thank you so much. Because I think that there are so many that are listening, that also have had such horrible things happen as children. That’s so many bad sexual experiences happen as children, and it does inform so much of what we come into marriage with so thank you.

29:15
Yes, I appreciate your kind words. And I just want to affirm what you’re saying, Bella. You know, there, there’s an adage that I like that the concept of fruit comes from roots. In fact, I’ve written several books on the topic of sexual purity on on the cover of two of my books, I have an image of a tree and it shows the canopy of the tree in this beautiful tree, but then it shows underground, and it shows the root system of the tree. And the idea is that the fruit that is produced on a tree ultimately comes from the roots fruit comes from roots, and apple trees. makes a apples and an orange tree makes oranges. But ultimately the fruit that comes out on a tree is from the roots. And later in my life, I became a Christian when I was 16 years old, and I love God and I wanted to serve God. And I wanted my life to count for God. But I had this horrible duplicity in my life because I had this problem with sex. And it seems like I could not manage my sexual self in a healthy way i i was acting now and doing things that I knew were dishonouring to God with my sexual self, but I was compelled i It’s like sex have this power over me, it control me, instead of me controlling it. And that’s part of the reason I shared the scripture I did earlier. It is God’s will that you be sanctified that you avoid sexual immorality that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable and not in passionate lust like the heathen. So I couldn’t control my body, you know? And, yeah, I had this, I had this problem. And I came to understand later that it was the issue of roots. You see the roots of the sexual roots that had been put in my life. These things were like seeds. You see. My dad’s pornography and sexual abuse and different things that happen are like seeds being sown in a boy’s heart. Well, there’s a there’s a problem with seeds belly, you know what it is? They sprout, say, and they take root and they begin to grow. Yeah, so yeah, yes, absolutely. On Holi roots, these ungodly roots that were sown, began to grow and put their tentacles into my heart. And now the trees, the sexual self of Tony is beginning to grow, and it’s producing the fruit of sexual sin. And I’m like, why? I don’t want this fruit on my tree anymore. Why does it keep coming out. And I basically learned that if you don’t deal with the ungodly roots, then the ungodly fruit is going to keep coming out. But But to your point in my power, my power purity.org. But I have 23 sessions there on the topic of sexual purity. And my my, the ACE session is called Understanding your story. And I think it’s incredibly important that people understand the story of their life. I can talk about this more in a little bit. But you see, to fast forward into my marriage, Sherry and I were a disaster, we didn’t know how to function in a healthy way sexually. And the reason for that is it had much to do with our story. In other words, the deepest pain and hurt and brokenness and sin of our lives was unattended. Sherry had never ever dealt with her family of origin. She never dealt with her rape, she never dealt with her promiscuity or her abortion. I had never dealt with my broken relationship with my dad, and they finding my dad’s pornography, I had never dealt with the sexual abuse that been perpetrated. So these are my gaping wounds and people symbols, and then you you get married, and without realizing it, your story. And these painful, hurtful things from your past, are still following you like your shadow, you cannot escape it. And until we understand our story, and face our story, and enter our story, and begin to deal with some of these hurtful, painful, wounded events and things that happen to us and process them in the light of God, the power of God under the blood of Jesus, the grace and mercy of God, that brings his healing to these most wounded places of our hearts and lives. And then then these things are going to hold power in our soul, you see. So I think it’s incredibly important that we understand our story, and we let God into our story to bring us healing.

34:15
Basically, what we’ve heard so far from your marriage is, is that you both came in with a really difficult past for not only Sherry, your wife, but also you who happened upon pornography at an early age and was abused and then came into marriage with this really difficult past. So I’m wondering, How did things move into healing for you both?

34:36
Well, that’s a great question. And thank God that there’s the second half of the story. You know, there’s the there’s the bad news, but then there’s the good news. It reminds me of the template of the gospel of the Gospels, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. We kind of talked about the death part, you know, everything that was wrong, but There’s something awesome about God. And that is that death is not even an obstacle for God that God can bring back to life, something that was dead. And then that’s what he did it the resurrection of Christ. And I believe that’s what the Lord wants to do in our lives. And the gospel isn’t intended to be something that we just believe in our head. I believe the gospel is a template that God wants us to live he He invites us into the gospel to live the gospel. And so God allows this kind of dying process where everything goes wrong, and there’s brokenness and darkness and pain and confusion and bondage and everything wrong and defined in one word, the word death, but but God has the ability to bring back to life. And that’s exactly what God has done in our hearts and lives. So we were married. As I said, Our marriage was an instant disaster. Essentially, I was a young man with a sexual addiction, and my wife was a young lady with a sexual aversion. And so we do, we’re often running and we were just not able to connect on an emotional, intimate level at all, my wife was completely shut down against me. She reported later that when we would attempt to be sexual, she she literally felt like she was being raped, and wanted to scream, and it just was torment for her. And so she wasn’t able to respond. And so we, we would go for prolonged periods of time without any physical or sexual intimacy, for months and months at a time. One time, we went nine months between physical intimacy then it might have been then might be four months, seven months. So so this was a disaster. And it really, really messed me up. I did not handle it. Well, I felt deeply hurt and rejected by my wife, I didn’t understand. Here, I am a Christian. You’re not supposed to have sex before you get married, and I had a lot of sex before I got married. So I felt guilty. Now I finally have a wife so I can have sex and it’s illegal to God, I won’t even get in trouble. And wouldn’t know what the woman that I that I marry, doesn’t want to have sex or can’t sex. So I began to act out and over over the years that followed, I became involved in several different adulterous affairs in the context of marriage. And of course, that made what was already a terrible situation that much worse. And, you know, John 1010, Jesus said, The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. And without a doubt, the devil was just trying to literally close the deal on our lives and just bring destruction upon us, you know. And what happened is, I eventually became involved in an adulterous affair with my wife’s best friend, which is profoundly terrible, and horrible and shameful. It’s one of the most shameful heinous things of my life. I you know, how you reflect back Bella on things you did? And you think, yes. Oh, my God, who was that? How, right? What was I thinking? How could I ever allow such a thing to happen? You know? Well,

38:47
I know you mean, absolutely. What we all have those things.

38:51
Thank God for His mercy. Why, yes, why we need a savior. But anyway, after this affair had gone on for some time, I never did get caught. But I actually ended up confessing to my wife, because of an odd Ministry of God that I call the heavy hand of God. I was just under such conviction, Bella, I felt so terrible about myself. And let me tell you, it is not a good day, when you look at yourself in the mirror, and you don’t like yourself anymore. And you you find yourself acting out in your life in violation of your own conscience. You understand what I’m saying? Like this is not who I am. This is not who I want to be. It’s not who I How did I ever get in this place? You know, so I just didn’t want to be this person and and I was just under such conviction from God, such heaviness from God that I literally physically would gas to Breathe. Sometimes I had trouble breathing. And I just knew I, something has to change. And so this particular night through a series of events, I went to my wife and I just confessed to her, I said, I’ve been having an affair with your best friend. And it’s terribly wrong, and I don’t want to do it anymore. And if you want to divorce me, we can get divorced but but protest the divorce, I do not want to get divorced. I want to fight for a marriage. But all I know is we can’t, we can’t stay the way that we’ve been. We are so messed up, we’ve got to try to work on this. And we cried together that night, my wife told me that she didn’t want to give up. And so within days, we went to a Christian counselor, and we we began going to counseling. And in the end, Bella, that process was profound, it took much longer than we expected, we ended up going to counseling for six and a half years. It was much longer than we expected. And the process with Mike went much deeper than we expected. And one time I figured it up afterwards, we easily spent $50,000 on our professional counseling process, which by the way, I think is a tremendous value. Because for several reasons. One is because divorces are very expensive. Yeah, but the second reason is because we were fighting for the highest values of our life, our family, our marriage, our rights, our ministry, our future. So it was worth the fight. And it was worth it was worth the money. You

41:47
know? Yeah. That’s great. I think anyone listening can keep that in mind that when you’re thinking about coaching, thinking about cancelling, I mean, this is really important stuff. You’re not just talking about one person’s life, you’re, you’re talking about a whole generation, potentially. Absolutely.

42:03
That is correct. And so the process, in part took a law that long, I think, because we were coming to understand our stories, as we were talking about earlier. You see, when we went into counseling, Bella, the problem wasn’t just who we were together in the context of our marriage. See, I was naive enough and shallow enough. When we started the process, I thought, and I positioned myself to the counselor, my problem is I’m married to a woman who won’t have sex with me. And I don’t know how to deal with that. So yeah, fix her. She’s the problem. And I thought the problem was in the context of our marriage, but see, we didn’t understand our stories yet. And so what’s very interesting about this process is that I like to say the unexpected thing about our therapeutic process is the God invited us into the stories of our life. As a professional counselor, now belah, I’ve come to believe, I do not think that most people understand the story of their own life. We might understand historical data, information and facts. Like my mom and dad got divorced, when I was nine, my sister was killed in a car accident when I was 12. I smoke pot for the first time when I was 13. I saw porn when I was 10 years old. I was molested, you know, at this age. So we know facts, but we don’t necessarily understand how all those things have worked together to impact us and shape our hearts and souls into the person that we become and how those things still hold power in our lives. So as I mentioned earlier, Sherry had never dealt with her rape, she had never dealt with her promiscuity, her abortion, there were all these things I had never dealt with. So it’s almost as if God was saying, I’m going to take you guys back into your stories, and we’re going to go back to the most wounded and broken and painful places of your journey in life. And that’s where God wanted to bring his light and his life and his healing in the blood of Jesus. And so we each had work to do as individuals, you see, and as as we NERT as God nurtured us through this process, and my wife was slowly dealing with these things in her heart and like she was slowly becoming a healthier woman, because she was dealing with these things she had never dealt with. And I was slowly becoming a healthier man because we were dealing with this poison that had been in our souls. And as we were slowly becoming healthier, guess what that creates the possibility that we could be healthier together, and we could begin to relate to gather in in healthier ways and new ways. And so it was a slow process. But God began to redeem our stories, the brokenness of our stories.

45:16
Wow, isn’t that powerful. Thank you so much, Tony. And you’ve got so many more insights to share on the second half of this interview, which is going live next Tuesday. But I think one of the reasons Tony can be so vulnerable and so open with his story is because he knows that he is not unique. He knows that there are so many others that have had such difficulty in so many sexual issues and pain and experiences. And he wants to help them and he knows that he can only help them if he shares his story and his his perspective openly and honestly. So thank you so much for that Tony. And I want to share also, if you have not yet had a safe place to share your story and, and get the godly perspective on it, and really hear where God’s coming from and how God loves you. Even if this difficult, terrible thing happened to you. I just want to encourage you to do that to get with a counselor or coach or someone who can share these things with you and men be wise counsel, to let you know that you are not marred by this any longer, you don’t have to be marred by this any longer. If you are interested in coaching with me, I do have a program for one month long program to talk about and process the pain and get God’s perspective on it. Because you shouldn’t have the identity of your past and your pain and your sexual sin. It’s it’s time to move forward, it’s time to get past this. So if you are interested in that you can go to delight your marriage.com click on contact and you can just type it in there. Let me just pray really quick right now. Father, you know who’s listening on the other line, and you love them. And you care so deeply about them used to care so deeply about their pain, and brokenness and, and hurt and God I just ask in Jesus name that you would begin to heal. Father put the people in place that they need to be talking to, to heal from what they’ve experienced the Lord God, you know them and you care about them. You love them. I pray that you make that so evident to them right now. Right where they are. Let them know how much you truly love them and heal their pain in Jesus name. Amen. Okay, well, thank you so much for tuning in today. I know. Next week is going to be awesome. So I hope that you’ll listen in to that. God bless you. Talk to you soon. Bye.

47:54
Thanks for listening. If you’ve been blessed by this, why not share it? Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion.

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Hi there! Belah here. Today is Part II of my interview with Kay Bruner of kaybruner.com. On this episode, she talks about how her marriage looks like now. She reminds us to stop trying so hard and to just let go. Kay also shares how she stopped worrying about every single thing and tells us that God is always there for us; He will never forsake us. Kay also shares about the time when she wasn’t that open to the blessings of God, thinking that she can handle everything on her own. But the truth is, we all need his grace. We just have to be more gracious toward Him.

Check out Part I at delightyourmarriage.com/70

You’ll Discover:

• How Kay’s marriage looks like now
• What steps she took to take her marriage to a better place
• How perfectionism didn’t do her any good in the early stages of her marriage
• Tips and advice to delight more in your marriage and intimacy

Resources:

• KayBruner.com
• As Soon As I Fell: A Memoir by Kay Bruner

Tweetables:

• “Don’t worry about everything being perfect.”
• “The more that our friendship grew, the easier our sex is.”
• “The more gracious I’ve allowed God to be, the more everything became easier.”
• “None of us have a clue what God is doing.”
• “I resolve to be that person: to tell my story and to be out with it so that other people won’t feel alone – like how I felt.”
• “Be strong and courageous for the Lord Your God is with you wherever you go.”
• “God does not tell us ahead of time where we’re going to go.”

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

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Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast. This show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah. Rose.

0:19
Hey, there, this is Bella, thank you so much for joining me. If this is your first time, I want to say welcome. This is a safe place where we talk about the hard stuff, we talk about the annoying stuff, and the difficult stuff and the intimate stuff and the sexy stuff and all this kind of thing in marriage that we all go through, but we seldom talk about. So I want to thank you so much for joining today. I do want to read to you a review, as I’ve been doing recently as because it really does encourage me and it encourages all of us as we are going on this trek together to have more fulfilling marriages. So this one says I really love the vulnerability and honesty found in each episode, I find that while I have many married friends around me, few have been in their marriages for long enough to to struggle, overcome and feel courageous enough to share those lessons. In this podcast, I felt the wisdom and earnest guidance gleaned from truly figuring life out together, I walked away considering new ways to love my husband well, and new ways to experience God through my marriage. I’m very much looking forward to future episodes. So I want to thank you so much for writing that that was an awesome review. And if you have not yet reviewed, you can do that. All you need to do is search delight your marriage, you click on the podcast and click write a review. You have to search it first. But that’s how you do it. That would mean a lot to me. So thank you, thank you. And let’s go ahead and dive in to the second half of Kay burners interview where she talks a lot about how to grow an intimacy in every area of your marriage. Okay, we’ll talk on the other side

2:10
well, my next question for you is about what your marriage looks like. Now, you told us a little bit about the really hard times. What is it like now?

2:21
I love it. Oh, no, this is the this is the, you know, the relationship that I wanted and, you know, tried to control my way into and, you know, by being so good and trying so hard and doing everything the right way. You know, the way that’s, you know, how I thought it was gonna be and instead, you know, through this huge mess of pornography and nervous breakdown, and, you know, just this. I’ve said many times, it’s like, crawling over broken glass. You know, that’s how it felt. And out of that is, you know, this friendship that Andy and I have, you know, that, you know, he’s an amazing person. Yeah, you know, just empowers me to be the person that that I think God intends me to be. You know, gives me like, the incredible freedom to have this weird, kind of bizarro career where, you know, I see clients or I don’t see clients, I write books, or I don’t write books, you know, yeah, I’m just very, you know, so grateful to him for just being that kind of a, of a friend and a spouse to me. Um, you know, and like I said, we, you know, we love to travel, you know, and we have that opportunity, since he’s a genius with the credit card points, and you know, and our kids are healthy and happy this year. We’ve had some, we’ve had some hard times, you know, with our kids, as they’ve kind of adjusted to adulthood in America after living overseas as kids. It’s been a little tough at times. But I think what you know, what we’ve all we’ve all learned is how to love each other through, you know, and that you can come out the other side of something that’s really really horrible. In a better place, closer, stronger together, more vulnerable with each other, more loving toward each other. And that, to me is just, it’s a miracle. Yeah,

5:08
that’s awesome. Well, tell us what your chief, three things that you feel have been central to your marital success so far if you can.

5:21
Um, I think that, you know, that the both of us have been willing to work on our own stuff. I don’t think you can do, you can never force somebody else. But I think, you know, by just the miracle of, I don’t know, grace of God, you know, we’ve each worked on our own stuff. I think that’s been incredibly important for for for our marriage. And the time that we spend together, I, I wouldn’t be okay. You know, without that time. And, you know, we’ve always had a sense of purpose, I think, you know, we were missionaries before. And my husband continues to work, you know, and in the nonprofit world, and, you know, I’m a counselor, and, you know, so we’re, we’ve always had, you know, an idea that, you know, we’re doing things that are that are meaningful and kind of beyond us, you know, like, there’s a bigger worry outside of just this, just the two of us. And I think that’s been, you know, energizing for our relationship, too.

6:41
Did you say the third one, or was that? I don’t know, maybe you did say the third one was, was working outside in a purpose,

6:49
bad math?

6:50
So? No, that’s fine.

6:52
Three is a big number for me.

6:56
No, that’s great. Um, well, if you’re comfortable, would you be willing to share a tip about sexual intimacy that you wish someone let you in on earlier?

7:08
Yeah, I think for me, probably almost everything goes back to perfectionism. But, you know, just not worrying about everything being perfect. And I think the older I get, the easier that becomes, because clearly, you know, if there was ever a chance for, you know, like, a perfect body or whatever, where that ship has sailed. And letting go with that, I think, as a woman has been a really helpful thing to me. And just, you know, and I think to maybe when I was younger, it was, you know, like, well, you know, we’re trying to like, every sexual encounter is going to be like this wonderful, perfect thing. And as I’ve gotten older, I think, you know, I just enjoy, I just enjoy the present moment, you know, yeah. And so, yeah, there’s a lot less expectation, I think, and that, oddly enough, has allowed me just to enjoy sex more and not be worried about, you know, whether it’s, you know, super perfect every single time I just like it, we just have fun together, you know?

8:21
Yeah, that’s really good. Do you think that it was easy for you to switch into a more just enjoyable just enjoying the experience?

8:31
I think the more that our the more that our friendship grew them, the easier the sex is, you know, yeah. Like, the more I feel loved and accepted, just for myself, and, and, you know, then the more the sex is just an, an outgrowth of that, too. You know, it’s not something that you have to try so hard at. Gosh, isn’t that just like, a theme of my life? Stop trying so hard?

8:58
Just enjoy it. I like it. It’s really good. Exactly. Just enjoy. Yeah, I

9:06
think sometimes we’re, you know, we’re so obsessed, you know, in our culture, but with sex, it’s either, you know, it’s one, it’s one end of the obsession extreme or the other, there’s the, you know, the overuse the, you know, the addiction kind of side, you know, that overtly sexual. We see all this in our culture all the time. You know, so obviously, that’s, you know, like, way off on one end, and then, but then we also have this other side, you know, that’s all about control. And, you know, it’s almost like sexual anorexia, you know, you know, so there’s like, those two super extremes in our culture, I think, and, you know, to, you know, kind of get off of that hole. That, that whole paradigm and to say, you know, it’s really about, you know, who I am as a person, my sexuality becomes an expression of that, instead of, you know, trying to live up to some expectation on one extreme or the other, you know. And the more gracious I’ve, you know, allowed God to be to me, you know, the more, everything just becomes easier. You know,

10:23
I love that the more gracious I’ve allowed God to be to me,

10:27
because I think we can block God’s grace. And I think I spent a lot of years doing that saying, you know, God, I really don’t need your grace right now, because I’m handling this just fine myself. You know, because I can be perfect. I can fix this the way that it’s supposed to be, you know, just leave me alone here. Let me do my perfect thing, you know. And when I’ve stopped that, you know, when I’ve stopped that, and I’ve just said, Okay, God, here I am. It’s me. And just allow that love and that grace to be present in my life. There’s just this release.

11:07
Yeah. Yeah, that’s so good. And, and practically speaking, is that something that said, a prayer that you pray every day? Is that something that a wife can kind of use as a habit? What What would you suggest?

11:24
I’m really terrible. At being organized also. You’re so and so? I yeah, I am. I don’t know. You know, uh, yeah, I envy people who are, you know, super organized and do these things, you know, really well. And I feel like I’m more just kind of go, oh, Lord, help me. And he’s like, yep. It’s good. It’s good. Yeah. Remember, remember, I delight in you? There’s grace for today? Yeah. Yeah, it’s good. Did you watch the supermoon other night?

12:11
Oh, I missed it. I couldn’t see it from my apartment. Oh,

12:13
well, we, we went out. And this, there’s this picture on Facebook, the next day that some professional photographer had done, it was over the Dallas skyline. And he had taken this time lapse, you know, sort of had all of these beautifully rendered versions of this, you know, all the clips, and it was gorgeous. It was gorgeous. And then my picture was this blurry little.in A sky with some weeds, you know, because we were we’re out on the dam over the lake near a house, you know, and, and I just thought, you know, the life that I keep thinking that I want is this one, that’s perfect, you know, this rail, and it’s all planned out and perfectly executed, and, you know, probably edited seriously after the well, and instead, I’m always in the weeds with this blurry thing. And yet, that night, when we were out there, you know, just for like, an hour and a half just laying there on an old quilt in the weeds. Watching this just infinitesimal. Matt, you know, it’s just magical, really. And, you know, in the Eclipse started and and, you know, Andy was like, Oh, wait, I think it started. You know, what was so slow? Yeah. And, and so beautiful. Yeah. And I think that’s kind of how, you know, God works. You know, we want these perfect things that you can say, oh, my gosh, look at that. And instead, it’s, you know, you’re in the weeds. And in that it’s kind of blurry and you don’t know what’s really happening. But yeah, awful. Yeah. And there’s this big, big thing that’s happening that we don’t understand. Yeah. And our life is somehow a part of that. Yes, the mystery.

14:16
Yeah, that’s powerful. And in the midst of it, like you said, I love how you said that. You can’t really understand what’s happening now. Doesn’t it doesn’t look like this beautiful girl. No happening.

14:29
No. It’s like Naomi saying, uh, God has done all this to me, and I’m better. Yes, she has no clue. And none of us have a clue what God’s doing.

14:40
Right. Right. So I just encourage anyone who’s listening, to take that to take that with you to really take that. That whatever is going on your life, God has something bigger. He’s brewing and you might not be able to see what it is. I love that. Well, my next question is about due to the specific marriage that you’ve had, what opportunities you’ve had to serve or get to get to know God?

15:12
Yeah, well, because Andy, you know, has been so open about things from the very beginning. We’ve, you know, just been able to talk to people and really openly about what’s going on with us. And and that’s, you know, led me personally, into, you know, writing about what’s happened, and then, and then being able to kind of be the recipient of other people’s stories. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, when, when I was going through it, I didn’t know who to talk to, I, I didn’t know anybody else who had survived, you know, this kind of thing. Because, you know, because people don’t want to talk about this. Right? Right. Don’t people don’t want to talk about it, right. It’s just, our ridiculous over half of people are probably dealing with us right now. But, you know, people are still really embarrassed, they don’t want to talk about it, they don’t know who to talk to, they think they’re alone. And so when I was going through that, I didn’t know who to talk to you, I was trying to find people to talk to you, and I just really resolved to be that person, you know, and to tell my story, and to be out there with it so that other people would not feel alone, like I felt alone. And that’s been, you know, really an incredible blessing to me, you know, to be the person, you know, that people can write to and say, I don’t know what to do, what do I do? Yeah, and you know, and it’s interesting, because I am, there are wonderful blogs out there, you know, with lots of advice. And you know, it’s great, but I think that people still want to be told personally, you know, they want to tell their story, personally, they want somebody to hear it personally. And they want somebody to say to them personally, you need to get a counselor, you need to go to a group, you matter, you know, make sure that you’re getting the help that you need. Right. So, yeah, that’s really the main thing for me is, you know, getting to be that support and help for other people. You know, I mean, that’s what God promises us. Right? He comforts us so that we can comfort other people with the problem, you know, with the comfort that we’ve received. Yeah. And yeah.

17:32
Yeah, that’s really good. You talked a little bit about your book, would you share specifically about how we can get it and any other resources you read? Yeah.

17:41
The book is called as soon as I fell, it’s at Amazon. And if you wait for Black Friday, I’ll put it on sale. I always do Black Friday sale just for fun, because everybody does a Black Friday sale. I think it’s hilarious that I have something to sell on Black Friday. So yeah, and the story is just my story of you know, of getting to that point of just being absolutely done. How did I get there? And you know, and how, how I came out of it again. So

18:18
yeah, it’s powerful. And clearly, Kay has got so many wonderful insights. I’m sure it’s a great read. Well, lastly, if you could go back to year one, in your marriage, and sit yourself down. What’s one piece of advice that you would give to you?

18:39
Huh? I think Oh, dear. No, ma’am. I think I would say what I say to a lot of women now, which is this, be strong and courageous. For the larger guys with you, wherever you go. Because I don’t think you know, God does not tell us fortunately, ahead of time, where we’re going to go, you know, and I don’t even want to know, really, I don’t this moment today, this has enough trouble. I do not need to know what’s coming down the road. God just, you know, I think is so gracious to not show us. Because we would look at that and say I can’t, you know, right. I mean, when I think I read my own story, and I go I don’t know how this woman survived this because it’s really, this is tough, you know? Right, you know. But the truth is, you know, that God walks with us and as presence goes before us behind us, he holds us. Amen. And that’s really it. That’s what we need to know. He’s not going to leave us or forsake us. He will not he will not leave us alone. Wherever, wherever we go.

19:57
Yeah, praise God. I feel like there are some women listening that may need to rewind this and play it again, and really get this. I think this is something even for me to, to not be focused on what’s happening next. But focus on what God is doing today. His grace is sufficient for you today. His mercies are new every morning. It’s it’s a daily dose that he gives us. It’s powerful. Well, my last thing as sad as it is we’re wrapping up is just a what, where our audience can find and connect with you.

20:39
Yeah, I’ve a blog. It’s just k bruner.com. And yeah, there’s a Contact Me page there. And I do write people back. So you can come and chat with me over there. and wonderful. And I have a Facebook 2k Bruno’s blog friends on Facebook. So and I tried to put up lots of articles and resources from all over about mental health issues and marriage and stuff like that. So whatever I think is fascinating. I put up there.

21:12
Wow, wow. Okay. Thank you so much. This has been wonderful. I really appreciate it.

21:15
Thanks for having me. It’s really fun talking to you.

21:19
Oh, my pleasure. Wow, awesome stuff. If you have been impacted by this episode, I just want to say thank you for listening and take the time to go ahead and search. You know, search your own heart. And see if God wanted you to do anything like if he wants you to pray a little bit about what you learned today. Or maybe talk to your husband or do something with your kids. Whatever it is, I just want to encourage you to go for it. Do that action step that God’s putting on your heart and live with love, wisdom and passion today. God bless you. I love you. Bye.

22:02
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by this show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion

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Hi there! Belah here. Today, I have with me Kay Bruner of kaybruner.com. Kay was a former missionary and had been to other parts of the world, sharing the Word of God. On this episode, Kay tells us about the struggles she and her husband went through in their relationship. She talks openly about her husband’s past porn addiction and how she felt devastated when she learned of this. She became severely depressed and anxious, to the point that she couldn’t move! Kay also shares about what it was like to transition back into the United States, with no church. She has an amazing story to tell, and I do urge you to listen to this interview, as I’m sure it will touch your heart.

You’ll Discover:

• The difficult season in which Kay, her husband, and her entire family had to go through
• How she reacted to the unfortunate things that happened while they were serving as missionaries abroad
• How Kay fell into the clutches of depression and anxiety
• How she learned that despite it all, she is loved by God because He delights in us
• How to be grateful amidst the challenges we face

Tweetables:

• Our trials were really the mercy of God.
• There is a whole other way of being that has nothing to do with my doing.
• God is so much more creative and redemptive than we can ever imagine.
• Life is always a surprise.
• Just stop trying so hard; God delights in you.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:  

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Hi there! Belah here. Today is Part II of my interview with Jen Ferguson of solideogloriasisterhood.com. This time, Jen tells us how her marriage looks like today, after all the struggles, after all the pain and suffering. She talks about moving on to create a happier life, knowing that there is something good at the end. Jen shares that marriage requires teamwork, and that it should always be the two of you. Also, don’t miss her intimacy tips!

Check out Part I at delightyourmarriage.com/67

Check out my video series How To Spice Up The Bedroom!

Scripture or Quote:

• I want to know Christ–yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death. Philippians 3:10

You’ll Discover:

• That there is something good in the end
• How we should always be willing to fight for our marriage
• Her intimacy tips and secrets!
• What your primary functions as husband and wife are!
• The central things that have helped Jen and her husband throughout their marriage

Books & Resources Mentioned:

• Pure Eyes, Clean Heart: A Couple’s Journey to Freedom from Pornography by Craig and Jen Ferguson

Tweetables:

• One day the storm is going to stop, and it’s going to be a great day at the beach.
• There’s good at the end, and if you give up too soon, you’re gonna miss the gift, the product of your hard work and God’s intervention.
• God is in there for the long haul. He will be there with us, no matter how hard it gets.
• God totally resurrected our marriage and our lives. That would not have happened, had we not been willing to explore the hard.
• Don’t measure your gifts based on the number of people around you.

Thanks for listening! I hope you are encouraged to live in wholehearted intimacy!

Love,

Belah

—

Episodes come out Tuesday & Thursday mornings. But, in case you forget…I love to subscribe with my phone so I never miss an episode. You can too:  

If you enjoyed this episode, would you add your review to iTunes (via your phone or computer)? It will encourage me & it will help others find the podcast easier. Find out how at delightyourmarriage.com/itunes Thank you!

Transcript

0:02
Welcome to the delight your marriage podcast, the show where you hear from amazing and inspiring wives sharing their struggles, triumphs, and advice for this journey called marriage. Here’s your host, belah. Rose.

0:18
Hi, there. This is belah rose. Thank you for joining me, we have the second half of my interview with awesome Jen Ferguson. And before we jump into that, I want to share with you that I’m starting something brand new, it’s actually request from a listener asked me if I had a Facebook group for the dy M community, and I didn’t. So I’ve created one now, and I’d love to have you there. It’s full of women, it’s just wives. And we’re talking about things that matter. We’re talking about our marriage or intimacy or something from the podcast that whoops, there’s my son. So anyway, I would love to have you there all you need to go to his delight your marriage.com/family and and click on the link, and we’d love to have you involved. Okay, so the other thing I’d like to talk about is a review that I received not too long ago. And here it is, it’s an iTunes review. I’ve never listened to a podcast before, but one of my favorite bloggers was interviewed on the delight your marriage podcast. So I thought I’d give it a shot. I am so glad I did. I’ve enjoyed all of the podcasts so far. And I found myself more interested in discussing these topics with my husband, which is a huge plus. I love the vulnerability and honesty. And I think it is so helpful for other couples to know that their struggles are rarely unique. Thank you. Well, thank you so much for sharing that wonderful review with me, I want to tell you that reviews are really important to growing this podcast. So if you like delight your marriage, I just want to thank you to those that have already reviewed, but if you haven’t gone to iTunes, and reviewed us, would you go ahead and take a moment and do that, all you need to do is search, delight your marriage, click on it, then click reviews, then click write a review. And there you are, it would mean so much to me, and it would continue to grow the reach of this podcast, thank you so much for your consideration and doing that. But today, we have the second half of this interview about a porn addiction that Jen found out about and had to deal with and how she’s come out on the other side of that how her marriage has grown and strengthened. And she even gives so many tips in growing in your intimacy with your husband or wife. Okay, let’s listen in we’re about to talk about how Craig and Jen’s marriages now and to be able to see that so can we shift to that, and talk about how your marriage looks like now.

3:02
You know, i i The one thing that I’m really grateful for is how once you can talk about things like porn and, and the the, the depth of death that he had to get through from his past and uncover in order to figure out what the root with, I just I had to figure out what the root of my food addiction was, he had to figure out the root of his point addiction. So the level of intimacy of having to go through this hard road. I mean, that is such a gift, because we could really talk about anything. And and that doesn’t mean that the conversations are always great, you know, we have to wrestle through and we are still two very strong headed, you know, individual people. But coming through something like this, like we’re in it, like no matter what we’re in it, and and so there’s so much like there’s so much peace in that knowing and seeing how God provided and God shepherded even though there was such a gut wrenching, painful time to know that he is sovereign and in control. And so with anything now that comes up, we we can wrestle through it and know that we’re gonna keep wrestling and not given. Yeah, and so that has just been that’s why I tell people keep that life check at home. Because yeah, one day the storm will stop. And, and it’s gonna be, you know, a great day at the beach. You don’t want to miss that. Like there’s good at the end. And if you give up too soon, you can miss the gift. You’re going to miss the product of your of your hard work and God’s intervention.

4:43
That’s awesome. Yeah, that’s so good to hear. And so if you could talk about what you think are the three chief things that has been central to your marital success,

4:54
God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. You’re the first to say that I like that. Definitely, I would say, our, our collective relationship with Jesus, like how we approach how we do life through scripture, and we don’t sit down and read the Bible every day together. And that sounds like I’m just to the life that we’ve decided to live based on what God has called us and who God is. And then, and then I would say, our individual relationships with with, with God. And then I would just say, intimacy, and not not just intimacy, intimacy everywhere, in our conversation, it like deep conversations intimacy, when we’re just having fun and playing together, intimacy in the bedroom intimacy when we’re parenting, you know, like, we are a team and we want, especially when our children to recognize that, but as part of anything with a team like you, when you go out and have, you’re on the field, and you’re playing hard. And then you have to have time to rest together. And you have to have time for fun together. And it’s just, all of those components are so crucial. And I would say that just last night, Craig and I went to a concert together and got it. My mom babysat the kids, like if we we have to seize those moments to focus on each other. And we ended up at dinner, having a conversation, like it was a hard conversation, we were wrestling something out, and I told him, I was like, Yo, I know we’re supposed to be having fun, but we don’t have an opportunity to talk about hard things a lot in the chaos of everyday life. Yeah, it’s like, you know, it’s just always making sure that are trying to make sure that you cover as much as you can, all the time. Don’t forget about each what I mean by that is don’t forget about each other. Like your husband is not just the father of your kids. Yeah. And he’s not just the one that goes to work. He is an equal partner in this marriage. And you have to remember that your primary function is to bless each other. And I think we forget that.

7:06
I love that primary function is to bless each other. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so easy to forget that, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah. I love something. I think I’m noticing as we’re as we’re talking is, it sounds like you don’t mind doing the hard things you don’t steer clear of, oh, something’s something’s hard. Let me avoid it. It sounds like you are like, okay, let’s dig in. Let’s get this figured out. Yes.

7:29
I I mean, I’m very tenacious and I’m very loyal. And so part of me as much as I was hurt by the porn addiction, I was also mad that Satan was trying to take something away from me. And it was kind of like, No, you cannot have this and I will die fighting for my head. That’s good. No. And so I really appreciate that about about how God made me, it definitely can have a downfall. Like a lot of loyal, tenacious people can be taught me how to be tenacious and loyal with an open hand instead of a closed fist.

8:10
Hmm, and how, and, yeah, explain that a little bit more.

8:13
Um, I think before, I felt like I had to hold on to Craig or I would lose him. And now I can reach out my hand and know that he’ll take it in the sense that like, he’s gonna be there he is there, I can trust that he will be there. And that God has blessed our, our marriage, and so I don’t have to try to hold on to him and keep him from all the bad things. Because that got.

8:39
Gotcha. Yeah, that’s good. And I also, I like how you said, you’re fighting, I’ll die fighting for my marriage. And it’s interesting, because a lot of times, it’s easy to think, well, you know, it’s kind of like fighting against your husband, you know, and instead you’re saying fighting for your marriage? How do you think wives gonna have that mixed up?

9:00
Well, I think whenever any two people come together, and they have that you’re gonna have conflict, and you’re gonna have tension because you’re two different people. But I think that we lose sight that we’re on the same team. You know, like our if we take seriously that our marriages are supposed to be a representation between the relationship of Christ to the church, we have to have a commitment to wrestle things out because we don’t want to show the world who doesn’t know Jesus. Well, I think hard Jesus is out of here. That’s not That’s not what he says. And so it’s our responsibility to show the world that Jesus is in this for the long haul and he will wrestle with us and you know, and, and stay with us and walk with us, no matter how hard it gets or how far we stray.

9:54
That is so good. That is just so so good. That’s what I needed to hear. Thank you.

9:59
And I think it’s powerful. It’s applicable to our kids do you know like, sometimes Craig and I will be having this argument about the kids or whatever. And we have to stop and be like, Wait, we’re on the same team. You know, we’re in Yeah. Gather Not, not as opposing enemies, you know. So I think it’s a good helpful reminder that, you know, in Ephesians, six, it talks about our war is not with flesh and blood, but against the evil black principalities of darkness. Right.

10:29
Right. Right. So it says, all those principalities and all that stuff. Yeah,

10:32
yeah. Yeah. So remembering that Satan is your enemy, not each other. Not God. Not your kid. Not right levers, you know, right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

10:43
Yes. Yeah. And the powerful thing for me is when you said specifically, when things get hard, it’s not like Jesus goes away, he’s walking with us. He’s in there with us, in the trenches in the mess in the, in the hard times, and the stuff where you don’t feel good enough and you, you feel sad, and you feel worthless, and you you feel unconfident and insecure and all these things. He’s with us. He’s with us in that. And I just think that’s beautiful. So okay, well, my next thing is to ask you, if you’re comfortable, would you be willing to share a actual tip about intimacy that you wish someone let you in on it earlier?

11:24
I think that it’s important to explore. Hmm, and I mean, explore in the bed, explore each other’s like real thoughts. Explore hard topic, explore. dreams, explore fears, like, yeah, God created us to be so we are so intricate in our body and how we’re made and how our mind works, and how our spiritual spirituality work that we like, it’s hard to even put in words because it’s so intangible. Like, you know, you meet your spouse, midway through life, whatever. I don’t know, you know, even I was 19. So I didn’t have that much. But you know, there’s so much to happen before we meet each other. Yeah, decades that can be explored, you know, in really, like, What did you dream about when you were a kid? And why? Why did you dream about that? And how is that impacting your life now. And maybe like, a lot of times, there are so many things that we think we want to do, and we’re kids and then we get sucked into the like the way we’re supposed to go in quotes, like the the successful way or whatever. And so they’re, they’re these longings from our little kids hearts, right, that longed to be explored. And maybe they don’t manifest themselves. And the way we thought, but those are, those are little dreams that God puts in our, in our hearts. And I think as marriages, we, if married partners, we have the ability to explore that and to help our spouses fulfill some of these longings and desires and gifts that God has given us. And so if you think about how intricate your spouse is made, and, and you have their hard things about them, and they’re, they’re really good things about them, but it’s all of it is worth being explored because God can redeem and use anything. And so let’s not get trapped, so trapped up by day to day life, that we forget to see the fullness of the person that God made them to be. So, so at the flip side of that, is you be willing to be drawn out to Yeah, being authentic and vulnerable. And maybe you think this dream is really stupid, or you don’t understand why you still have this longing. And it doesn’t seem to make sense, but being willing to share and you know, as in marriages, we create babies or, you know, God creates babies, but you know, that, like, yes, we are we take part in that creation of life as human beings, but I think that there’s also when we talk and have that intimacy, we can create so much more. If we are a team even if we’re not in official quote ministry, like we can birth something really awesome together. But we get so you know, burned out by the day to day living that we forget that. So it just makes it exciting.

14:26
Yeah, yeah, I love that.

14:30
Go ahead. I was just gonna say like, I never when I was 19, like, never thought that I would be a writer, much less. Write a book about porn addiction, right? But like it just to me, like this book was like a birth and it was a creation and it was born out of something that was really hard that Satan tried to tell me with death. And I just see how God totally resurrected our marriage and our lives. And that was Have not happen, have we not been willing to explore the heart?

15:05
Yes, have we not been willing to explore the hard, that’s powerful. So, so tell me, due to this specific marriage that you’ve had, and we’ve talked about a bit, but what opportunities have you had to serve and get to know God,

15:22
definitely through blogging, and I and speaking and leading Bible Studies, and of course, the book, but that I think, the most impactful part of the whole of how God created me and even what how Craig and I do relationship is people find out about the book or about our relationship, or our about our willingness to be authentic and vulnerable. And the one on one relationships that have has been birthed out of that has just been incredible. And even if it’s not a sustained relationship, just knowing that, you know, people pass in and out of our lives all the time, right. And, and so I would say the heart of ministry is getting to know people and and loving them for as long as God has them in their life, in your in your life. And that’s just been the biggest blessing, I think. And then to I Lita, we call it t time, when it’s in the t stands between, but we do have raspberry tea at all of our meetings. And it’s basically a discipleship group for my sixth graders, friends, and they all walk to my house. And my friend, and I lead it together. And we just teach them about having quiet time and about reading the Bible and about why it’s important to adore God and praise God and to confess and everything is just like having this. You know, ministry is not about to teaching 400 women or just about leading a church or singing song, or whatever, like ministry is relational. And so know, even if you feel like you only talk to one person about Jesus, that ministry, and that’s valuable, and you’re radically changing that one person’s life. So wherever God has you, whatever God has you doing, it’s valuable. And it’s important and don’t measure your gifts based on the number of people around you.

17:22
Oh, that’s good. Don’t measure your gifts so that we don’t measure your gifts based on the number of people around you. Yeah, isn’t that true? It’s just so true. Because we don’t see what treasures in heaven are happening while we’re being service oriented. While we’re, you know, giving the cup of water and the, the, you know, meal to the homeless or whatever it is that Jesus says, if you do it in my name, you do it for me, which is amazing, that we have, you know, in our lives, the opportunity to serve Jesus, in our, in our ways, the ways that we do it. So that’s a powerful point. I love that. So you talked a little bit about your book, could you talk a little bit more about it? And how people can get it?

18:05
Oh, sure. So the book is called Pure eyes, clean heart, a couple’s Journey to Freedom from pornography. And basically, the way it’s set up is there’s six parts. And so each part has three parts. And I write the first chapter, Craig writes the second chapter. And then the third chapter, we’ve used secular and scriptural research, to kind of help couples grasp and apply whatever we’ve talked about in the previous two chapters. So we start out telling our story, and then and then we talk in chapter three, we talk about why is pornography really dangerous? And why is it and what I love about that chapter is that it’s not just what God says, XYZ. It is. Well, here’s also the sexual secular research behind it. I mean, there are psychologist and psychiatrist and I mean, people that know everything about the brain, saying, Oh, this is crazy. This is having such a negative impact on our world. So even if you’re not a believer, like this can wreck your life and wreck your job and make your home and wreck your marriage and it’s not fruitful like the God says it’s not fruitful and people who understand the brain are saying it’s not fruitful. Um, yeah. And so and basically it just is a book that walks couples through some of the really hard points of point addiction and allows them to explore what each other think about it and what God thinks about it. So at the end of every third chapter, there’s a discussion question for the couples to ask each other and to think about themselves and and what I how I appreciate how God led us to structure it is that it’s really helpful to read every chapter because if you’re the one who’s been betrayed, you have your own set of assumptions and conclusions and hurts and everything and so yeah, you might really resonate with what you’re saying what I’m saying, you know, cuz I was the one betrayed, but then it’s so helpful to read correct perspective and be like Oh my gosh, I didn’t even think that this could be part of why he’s doing that, you know, and, and so it just is always helpful when especially in an emotionally charged situation to be able to see into another person’s perspective. And when you’re looking at somebody else’s husband and like, Okay, well, he’s been through it, and she’s been through it, then maybe this really is real. And we really do have hope because this person these people made it through. Um, yeah, so it’s not the book is not a cure, only Jesus is a cure. Um, yeah, but it is a source of hope that you can do this with his help. And we made a lot of mistakes, and we still got through it. We didn’t do it for free, and you won’t do it perfectly either. But we weren’t designed to do anything perfectly, because we were designed to need Jesus.

20:53
Amen. That’s powerful. That’s awesome. Well, I would just go out on a limb and say that if you have had pornography affect your marriage, this is worth it. This is worth taking the time the effort, maybe it’ll take a couple of weeks to read. But this is something that could totally transform the way you think about things and also transform your marriage and, and give yourselves that intimacy back. So that’s powerful. Well, can you go Jen, as my last question is, if you could go back to year one of marriage and sit yourself down? What’s one piece of advice that you would give to you

21:28
present to Jesus every day, it taken me, I mean, I, I was saved when I was in sixth grade. But um, just in the past couple of years, have I realized how important scripture is, and the, you know, we can pray and access Jesus or God, at any moment at any time. But sitting down with the word has completely radically changed my life. Because God’s word is power. You think about his book, The world, the world into existence with his word. And in Ephesians, six, it talks about God’s word, being the sword of the Spirit, there are many battles that we have to fight. And if we’re not rooted in the truth of who God says is who God God is and who God does. We are, we are going to spend so much more time floundering. Yeah, and so his word like, you can understand it, and you can read it, and it will might take a long time. But it’s not even just about reading the word. It’s about reading them and asking God to speak to you through them. Because you know, even in the Old Testament, it here the Israelites were wandering around for 40 days, or 40 years. And how does that have any impact on my life? It happened so long ago, but you just think about like, oh, my gosh, I have been wilderness. And I have been wandering and I have been searching and I have been here because I have been disobedient, you know, yeah, me, show me a grace of the way out. And we can just learn so much from the history of the Bible, and the living presence of the Holy Spirit, found in the New Covenant. And it is just rich. And I just don’t think if you had asked me 15 years ago, you know, the three things you would take if you were stranded on a desert island or whatever. And as I was a Christian, I would have said the Bible and then it would have probably, like, wrapped it in the sand. But But no, no, he’s like, a life, his life to me. And when I could not imagine not having it. Cuz even if I’ve memorized scripture, like going back and reading those stories, and just, it’s such a source of comfort and such a source of hope, and a reminder of how good God is and how he does keep his promises.

23:51
Yes, that’s awesome. And it just as a follow up question would how would you suggest someone get started

23:58
with relationship the Bible, I would suggest if you have first getting a translation that’s easy to read, The New Living Translation is really great. And IV the message there’s a newer translation called the voice which is really rich too. So you might even get on Bible gateway comm and pull up John chapter one and read it in a couple of different translations and just see where the Holy Spirit might be leading you. In which translation to choose and then get your Bible and sit down in a quiet space and start in John one. Okay, that and then I would say move to the Gospels and then and maybe the Psalms, but and just go in his reading like that it God’s leading because he has something for you. I think it’s easy to say, Oh, well, I’m gonna sit down and read this. It’s probably not gonna have anything to do with me and dismiss it but God’s word is active and alive. He can speak to you. And he can speak to you through the, the words and he can prompt you with your thought. And so just being open, I think is such a good number one step. Do you know what this book that you’re completely clueless about? And just say, Okay, God, I’m going to trust you that you’re going to lead me through this. And there are tons of Bible study resources out there. But there’s some really precious about just saying, okay, Jesus, it’s me and you, you teach me, you know, and then as that grows in you, you’ll desire to, you know, look up words in Greek maybe, or by Yeah, buy recordings or you know, whatever. But like you start with intimate relationship with Jesus, because that is what’s going to continue to keep you tethered to him and listen to His voice and learning about him in in Philippians 310. And the Amplified Version, it starts with my determined purpose is that I may know him. So if you have no other I mean, your determined purpose is to know him and everything else that he has called you to do come through knowing him. And the only way you’ll know him is by reading the word.

26:08
Yes, that’s good. Yeah, amen. That’s awesome. Well, okay, my last question for you is where can our audience find and connect with you?

26:19
You can find me. I’m going to South Bend for you. There Solidaria Baca sisterhood.com SOLIDOGLO r i a sisterhood. If you just Google Jen Ferguson sisterhood outcome up on Google. And then we also have a blog for the book copyrights clean heart calm, and I have not been guided, it’s just not giving me a ton of time to focus on that. But if you the book is also on Amazon, to your eyes, clean heart. And you can always contact me through through Facebook. And, or Twitter, my Twitter is Jennifer V 2000, je n fer g 2000. And I have had many women reach out and connect with me, just to ask me questions. And I am more than happy to respond. Because I don’t want anyone to feel like I did. So alone and so ashamed of what was happening in my marriage. And shame is only going to keep you tethered to the darkness and more you can expose your situation to the light in telling people that are trusted this, you know, the shame will go away when you bring it to Jesus and expose it to light. And so if you need help navigating that I am more than happy to help.

27:49
That’s awesome. I just love that you are so open with your story and willing to share and it’s just a story that’s so common, but so infrequently told. So I’m really grateful for that, Jen, and thank you for everything that you shared all of your wisdom and insight. I really appreciate. Thank

28:05
you for having me. It’s been a pleasure meeting with you and talking with you.

28:13
Thank you so much for all of your insight, Jen. This is really awesome. And thank you, listener for trekking with us on this. I hope that this has been important and helpful to you and your life and your marriage. And I’m praying for you and may God just continue to bless and grow in intimacy your marriage. Okay, God bless you. I love you and we’ll talk soon. Next Tuesday, in fact, okay, bye bye.

28:40
Thanks for joining. If you’ve been inspired by the show, would you help spread the word? If you take a moment to review and subscribe others can find us more easily. Find out how to delight your marriage.com forward slash iTunes. Until next time, live with love, wisdom and passion